SAINT ETIENNE – The World Cup’s tier 2 nations don’t want fawning praise about their bravery from rugby’s elite. They want tangible help.
The World Cup is into its 10th edition but the tournament’s so-called minnows believe their path to being competitive is being hampered by a lack of opportunity against teams at the top table.
England smashed Chile 71-0 on Sunday, with Henry Arundell scoring a tournament record-equalling five tries, two nights after France pasted Namibia 96-0.
“I’m not really disappointed. That’s reality. That’s what actually happens with rugby at the moment,” said a resigned Chile coach Pablo Lemoine.
“We have never played before at a World Cup. We are coming here and we are part of the show but we can’t play the game.
“We haven’t played that kind of game in the cycle between the World Cups. I hope that changes because it’s not good for the game or the supporters.
“Every game gives us positive things but at the moment we are only thinking about what happened today. The score is completely unfair.
“This is the reality of the tiers in the World Cup when you are playing against one of the top-10 teams. We play them every four years and we are facing tier 1countries at the top of their form and they’re competing against themselves. It’s our reality but it’s a shame.”
Jack Willis of England celebrates scoring his team’s eleventh try with teammate George Ford during the Rugby World Cup France 2023 match between England and Chile at Stade Pierre Mauroy on September 23, 2023 in Lille, France. (Photo by Dan Mullan/Getty Images)
His captain, Martin Sigren, seemed a little more positive.
“It’s a tough lesson. Four years ago we were getting the same result against Canada and the USA. We were losing games against Brazil. Four years later, look at us, we’re here, so I have to hold on to that,” Sigren said.
“We will keep on working, maybe four years later the results will be different.”
After beating Australia last week, Fiji coach Simon Raiwalui summed it up this way: “We always want more resources but you have to make do with what you have.
“I would take more matches over resources. The more matches we get at this level – I’m talking outside of the World Cup – if Fiji can get these tier-one matches more regularly, you’ve seen what these boys can do when they get competition.”
Fiji have been starved of tier one opposition at test level but have seen the benefits of cohesion formed through the Fijian Drua’s entry into Super Rugby.
Although some of the Samoan team have found a home at Moana Pasifika, they looked short of the same cohesion in losing to Argentina in Saint Etienne.
Samoa’s softly spoken coach Seilala Mapusua reflected on opportunities for his team after their loss to Argentina on Friday night, saying Samoa had played just four games against tier 1 nations in the four years since the previous World Cup.
He said Fiji was an inspiration for what could be achieved.
“The success of a tier two nation like Fiji, there’s a direct correlation between the amount of games, but also the types of games they’re playing,” Mapusua said.
“I look at Fiji and we’re so proud of what they’re doing at the moment. Seeing them lead into a World Cup playing against France and England, and then going straight into Wales and then beating Australia, that’s pretty impressive to be doing that.
“We’re showing that we can be competitive against Argentina, who are playing in the Rugby Championship, and teams like Ireland ranked number one in the world.”
Samoa’s star forward Michael Alaalatoa, brother of injured Wallaby Allan, said his team messed up some big moments against the Pumas.
Asked why, he replied: “I put it down to a lot of things. We don’t get games like this often. We probably get games like this every four years against really top-level tier one opposition. When the games are that tight, we need to nail our stuff.”
I asked him if he would like to see Australia or New Zealand do more to embrace them and give them games.
“For sure, we’d love the opportunity to play against the tier one nations whether Australia or New Zealand, theyre so close to us, or even teams in Europe as well.
“In saying that, we have an awesome opportunity to come up for the next two games and that’s all we’re worried about. If we nail those then teams are going to want to play us.”
Former Wallabies coach Michael Cheika – who led Argentina to the win over Samoa – thinks the change to eligibility laws are helping the minnows, and more impact should be seen in future.
(Photo by David Rogers/Getty Images)
“I’ve had my stoushes with World Rugby but I’m super pleased that they’ve changed the rules to let the boys play with Samoa and Tonga,” said Cheika.
“I had the rugby league World Cup with Lebanon and I saw how culturally that was such a huge event. It was really one of the best things I’ve ever done. I think for those lads you saw today – not only are they tough competition, like it was a physical encounter, but they’ve got some excellent players playing in the top 14 and playing in Super Rugby and they’ve had a lot of international experience and it makes for a great occasion.”
Asked if more could be done to create opportunities for tier 1 vs tier 2 games, Cheika responded: “I don’t want to get into politics. What I want to say is I don’t believe in tier 1 and tier 2. There shouldn’t be any tiering. Maybe for funding and all that, yeah I get it, but as far as the rankings are concerned and teams playing each other it’s all hands on deck now.”
The World Cup is set to expand from 20 to 24 teams – a decision that will open it up for more minnows but do little to solve the issue of thrashings. So far the Cup has been a bit of a fizzer, due to lopsided scorelines and expect more with more teams.
One idea that’s been flagged is to expand to 32 teams and split it into two competitions of 16 each. Cheika hates the idea of any change.
“The World Cup is perfect. As it is. It’s good as gold,” he said.
Next up for Pablo Lemoine’s Chileans is a South American derby against Argentina. Cheika suggested there was some regional solidarity similar to that that exists between the Pacific Island nations.
“I think definitely. It’s a bit different because the region’s not up in the top tiers of rugby I suppose – they’re running their tournaments, they’re well organised.
“They’re running a good tournament over there in Super Rugby South America where a lot of younger players are coming up and going through.
“A lot of our under-20s played in that tournament. And a lot of guys from Argentina are getting to play with other clubs in Paraguay and Colombia or whatever.
“But there is that pride about the teams together but of course that pride will give way to enemy status next weekend and we’ve got to make sure that we come out there with our best.”
He said next week’s clash was a historic one for the region’s rugby programs.
“It’s the first time two South American teams are playing in the World Cup. And we know that it’s going to be a huge game for both teams because we have a lot of respect for what they’ve achieved.
“There was a game in Mendoza, we were playing against New Zealand, and a lot of the Chile guys were there, like coming to watch a game and I was down in the foyer with them at the hotel.
“I congratulated them on what they’ve done because their rise, to come into the tournament, be qualified for the tournament and the way they’ve played in the first games has been absolutely fantastic.”
JD Kiwi
Roar Rookie
Mate, I've already covered half of that in the first paragraph of my previous post. We'd love to play our Pacific brothers more need to maximise test money from our test window because of financial pressures caused by your parasitic clubs. And don't be fooled by the old "we sell out Twickenham for Fiji " con - tickets for matches against tier two countries are usually a fraction of the price for a match against us e.g. £30 v £180 for the same seats in the same year last time we were there. As for trying to lump our Super Rugby with the same parasite label, very rarely recruit from overseas except for a short term work experience or gap filler. Like Ireland we do have an overseas player quota but it's rare that anyone seriously falls foul of it - Reece an exception not the rule. We even started up two Super Rugby teams with the express purpose of giving Pasifika players experience - already 35 of them this World Cup alone! Nothing like Ireland's cynical project player rort where they recruit established pros with no affiliation to Ireland to fill gaps in their national squad. What do they give back to the Southern Hemisphere nations who spent all that money developing them? You could criticise our schools for recruiting from overseas, but considering that 57 kiwi born players are representing other countries they do more than their share for tier two. As for teams needing to prove that they deserve to be in the league, we certainly didn't demand that of the Drua and MP and we are spending a lot of money on them, especially MP, to try to benefit tier two rugby. Whereas Ireland just take take take.
Brendan NH Fan
Roar Rookie
England can sell out Twickenham for Samoa, Ireland the same for Fiji or France for Japan, surely NZ can do the same in Auckland. As I've said before Romania and Italy were also there when they were T2 countries. Does it not bother you that NZ and Oz always play put of window tests v NH teams but won't do it against a PI. How are NH clubs parasitic but SRP teams which stop players from playing for their PI nation are not. Do you not think a professional team should have to show they deserve to be in the Cup. Most fans of the Super Cup put it on the same level as the National, would you add a heartland team into SRP without making sure they were improving to a higher level. NZ played the PIs in 2021 because Italy refused to travel due to Covid. SA played Georgia as part of their 10 year agreement (two teams into the 6Ns works better than one).
JD Kiwi
Roar Rookie
You know very well what's stopped us! As you have said many times we need to maximise revenue from international rugby. To protect our investment in player development from parasitic northern hemisphere clubs. We can't afford to reduce RC income until the world league tops it up and unfortunately we've burnt money before on matches in the islands (& it's still cost them which they also can't afford.) Meanwhile you congratulate the North for letting one club into the second rate six match comp nobody cares about when South Africa put them in the Currie Cup and we have two Pasifika teams in our main comp, costing us millions. Still waiting? Let me explain it to you again. Our four teams are too busy in the window playing your six and playing weakened teams out of window doesn't really help anyone. Yes South Africa played Georgia before the Lions, similarly we played Samoa. And then you try to perpetuate the thoroughly debunked myth that we "take all the PI players." You should get a speechwriter job with Hamish and Eddie.
Brendan NH Fan
Roar Rookie
But Fiji and Japan were going to be added to the RC in 2018 when the World League was first put forward. 6Ns said no to the World League but nothing has stopped SANZAR from adding them. Again we have been told it will be Japan and Fiji in the 5 years since and yet still not closer to adding them. The same people complain about the 6N not adding Georgia yet Georgia only got their first win v a T1 nation last year and the 6Ns have added the Black Lions to the Challenge Cup which will do better over 4 years for Georgia than adding them to the 6Ns. Still waiting to find out what is stopping OZ and NZ from playing more T2 teams, even South Africa played Georgia this WC cycle. Italy only got games prior to joining the 6Ns at WCs v the 3Ns. At a certain point OZ and NZ fans need to realize that their unions are the ones taking all the PI players and also the teams refusing to play them. OZ and NZ have played plenty of games v USA and Japan when those Unions pay a sizeable fee to RA and NZR. As I have said previously the warm up to the 2019 the Fiji Union lost money getting a two games v the Maori. When you look at this WC cycle Fiji and Samoa got games against France, England and Ireland and would have made money off those games or at least not lost money. OZ and NZ play more test matches than everyone else but they would rather play Japan and 6Ns outside the test window then games against the T2 teams who can't afford the massive fees being billed by RA and NZR.
Wizz
Roar Rookie
Yeah they are all here in Thailand...arrogant too!! Bill Clinton's the lot of them.We ever invaded N.Z id be first back.
Ben Pobjie
Expert
They can, but let’s be honest: Namibia is nowhere near it right now.
ScottD
Roar Guru
Yes agree. They are the special moments for sure.
ScottD
Roar Guru
Yes, I'm not disputing that. What I am saying is that the world's top 20 teams are closer now than they were 30 years ago and they are getting closer every year. That is one reason why I don't support the "minnow" or "tier two" tag. I think we are at a point where any team in the top 10 can beat any other and within 8 years it will top 15 etc. This has happened through more international games between top 6 and other lower ranked teams and I support this increasing. However I think the RWC should be capped at 20 teams for the moment until we see some of the lower teams improving a bit more. When teams like Portugal, Chile, Namibia, Romania and Tonga are all able to win games at the RWC then it's time to move to 24.
AgainAgain
Roar Rookie
I agree with that Ferret. I think we all want to see a strong Pacifica comp. The atmosphere that Polynesians bring to the game is absolutely fantastic. I don’t know what the funding model should look like, but if someone can work it out, it would be great for the sport and the islands. The issue is it has not been financially viable in the past and I think it would be a loss leader. I wonder if this shouldn’t fall to WR to help bridge the gap. Both Australia and NZ are pretty strapped for cash trying to get their own comps working and we are still bleeding to the rich NH clubs.
Olly
Roar Rookie
Mate professional sports is not a charity. That is there problem to work out and other nations have shown they can improve. A first time RWC team whinging, give me a break. They can earn it like everyone else.
Handles
Roar Guru
12 years ago Fiji pushed South Africa all the way in a quarter final. Samoa beat Wales in 1991, and again in 1999. Sakoa also pushed England harder than any other team except Australia in 2003. Japan beat South Africa 8 years ago. These results stick in my head more than almost any other RWC games. The beauty of the RWC is the exposure of the developing countries to top class rugby. Upsets can happen.
JD Kiwi
Roar Rookie
It's not greed Ferret it's survival. The game would be in such a better place where it not for the wages arms race instigated by Europe and Japan.
JD Kiwi
Roar Rookie
I've already explained this one to you, why do you feel the need to repeat this nonsense? There aren't enough SANZAAR nations to go around the 6 nations so your lot have no choice but to play tier two every year. Whereas we're busy servicing all your T1 teams.
Crusher_13
Roar Rookie
Would you rather as a 23 year old from Portugal play against WS, TT, RV, NW, SK, MK and lose by 50+ swap jumpers with one of them or the Wallabies B team and lose by 20?
Tony Harper
Editor
I did ask the players and coaches what they think (Michael A, Seilala M, Simon R). They think they need more games against top class opposition to improve enough to be competitive at the World Cup level.
BlouBul
Roar Rookie
Back in the days the Springboks played a lot of games against Argentina.
BlouBul
Roar Rookie
How did Italy improve? Got to play in the 6N. That is the point the coach was making.
BlouBul
Roar Rookie
How do you get better if you're not given the opportunity? Two games every 4years is not going to do it.
BlouBul
Roar Rookie
The population and spread within Namibia will never turn them into a anything but the whipping boys.
Morsie
Roar Rookie
I guess the bottom line is to ask the players what they think. I'll bet every last one of them are totally stoked to be there giving their all in spite of results.