St Kilda are not in the worst position in the AFL. Here's why

Carlton have Curnow (29), Kruezer (29), Murphy (31), Thomas (31) and Simpson (34) in their best 22. All on or soon approaching the wrong side of 30 and at least 2 if not 3 are in their best 5-6 players. They also have a lot of dead weight on their list and at least another couple of years of heavy list turnover. The only best 22 player St Kilda has aged 29 or over is Geary (30), who's arguably not even one of their best 22 players if not for having the captaincy. St Kilda's list in general is in a much better position - despite not having as many top end stars - and continuing improvement from players like Steele, Billings, Gresham, Acres, Clark, Sinclair and even Membrey with the added leadership of Hanneberry should see them improve a lot on 2018. Not to forget that Roberton comes back in who was in the 40 man AA squad in 2017. Bruce comes back in who's extremely important for structure and can chime in with his 30-40 goals. Nothing's ever as good or bad as it seems and whilst they had a horror year last year, it doesn't take much to turn things around. Everyone buys into the Carlton hype every pre season without fail and I can't see much changing personally. Stacks of talent but their list is in putrid shape, and they're coming off the worst season by any team since Fitzroy in 1996(?).

I grew up around St Kilda so have a soft spot for the Saints but the membership add speaks volumes of what is wrong with that club. You'd think Reiwoldt would have been a shoe in to encourage new members.

Honestly I could cope if the Saints were to head to Tassie at some point but Hawthorn and North in their current set up make that seem unlikely. The Saints used to play in Launceston from 2001-06 along with Hawthorn, but went back to Docklands as they were losing their games down there. Shame really because they would have made much more money and garned further support had they stayed. I agree North is in the same boat but their debt is gone and current form is good so they’ll escape the spotlight in the short term. Fingers crossed the saints find some form and get some crowds.

Clearly you didn't like my thoughts on the Saints list, and that's completely fair enough. I probably wouldn't if I was a saints fan either. However, What I wrote was simply the truth. Do you actually think that Jack Billings is a good player in this league? He isn't a horrible player, though he promised so much, and is delivering so little. What off season trades? Daniel Hannebery? The guy is finished, he is no longer and A grader. His form has been steadily declining for a couple of years now. He went from averaging thirty disposals, to averaging twenty four, and then went to eighteen. You payed him 700,000 dollars a year for five years, simply ludicrous. I have you finishing 17th. Good luck for the season.

Let's just hope that St Kilda has spent the summer improving their use of the ball. Hannebery may add leadership skills but they had leaders in Riewoldt and Montagna and got rid of them.

Melbourne has too many AFL teams. The big 4 sucks all the primetime fta away from every club in the land, and the small Melbourne clubs bare the brunt. I think it would be wiser to prop up a Tassie team to help keep that traditional player nursery healthy and prosperous, as I don't think consolidation/reduction of teams in Melbourne will affect player stocks. I was speaking to some Melbourne friends about this and they were of the view that StK would probably be the least disruptive of the existing teams to transition to the VFL. North would be the other team.

The ARU are definitely more frustrating but they’re also much more in the spotlight. It’s hard to know what goes on behind closed doors at either headquarters. The loss of the force was heartbreaking but I think the reality is rugby union is on it’s knees. I think the AFL has the money to bank roll Gold Coast for a fair while longer. The Suns aren’t doing well but AFL in QLD and particularly on the Gold Coast is surprisingly big and still growing. I don’t see a merge happening at the moment, North are actually making money and St Kilda do have a significant membership base, if only they could get some to games with some better form. But I can’t see anyone else that would be considered at the moment. What are you thoughts?

Wallabies fan.... hmmm.... which gives you the biggest head ache, the ARU or StK? Given the AFL has indicated, in the past, a desire for consolidation in Melbourne, do you think StK would be the most vulnerable club? Or do you think Gold Coast will be dissolved before a Melbourne team is affected? Having watched the Western Force being forcibly kicked out of Super Rugby by the governing body citing lack of player depth, and financials, do Saints or North Melbourne fans ever feel they could suffer the same fate?

I'm taking the bait Here's one Tragic saints fan's perspective/rant. You'll want to sit down, it's lengthy. Long story short - nothing's ever as good or as bad as it looks. Any reference to another club is not shot taking and I apologise if I'm short of examples and if I'm factually incorrect. Firstly, I think there's a small but significant number of wallflower saints fans regularly on this site . Unfortunately the discussion following pieces involving the saints are often started by people who act like the StKFC's failures are a personal offence to them and frequently resort to disrespectful comments and name calling. Let's be honest, most of the comments come from about 10-15 roar users who'll respond to every post with the same point time after time. Let's encourage some AFL fan diversity by at least being respectful. I've worked/studied in nearly every part of Victoria and am surprised (in a good way) by how many saints fans I meet around the place, though possibly because of low expectations. I was surprised that St Kilda was 12th for memberships in the AFL in 2018, ahead of Melbourne (favoured for top 4) then the Dogs and North. I expect after 2018 there will be a reasonable decrease. I feel the sting of the relevance comments, as another user mentioned but agree we are probably the least relevant club bar Gold Coast at the moment and I have voiced to many my fear that we will be the club that moves/merges/folds. That being said I think everyone (bar Collingwood unfortunately) overestimates their clubs relevance outside of their home state (a reason why West coast are often underrated/reported on the east coast). I think the frustrating thing is that now that our disgraceful off-field antics are behind us, other clubs that have essentially achieved nothing whilst rorting the salary cap, committing almost unspeakable medical negligence or also relying on AFL support, seem to deserve more respect historically. I also think St Kilda's debt is not being talked about in a fair manner. whilst it's multifactorial lets take in some more context. Firstly pokies. Geelong's pokies income (which is entirely made in Melbourne's western suburbs) would cover their debt in 2.5 years. Collingwood's (also in the western suburbs) would cover it in less than 1 year, Hawthorn's (Western suburbs again) in 6 months. Part of the move to Seaford was supposedly about a pokies disagreement with Kingston city council. I'm not a fan of pokies funding AFL clubs so I respect Kingston looking out for their own. Currently StKFC is making 2.1 million, I hope they can get to a point financially where they take the machines out of their club house for good. I also hope they don't take the low road of financing the club in another low socioeconomic part of Melbourne. Respect to North Melbourne, Well done. Secondly, the stadium deal crippled all of the dockland clubs (not including carlton or essendon with shared access to MCG). St Kilda made more from one game in Wellington than a whole season at etihad. Cat likes to frequently bring up the loss of income for Geelong from having to play at the MCG. St Kilda used to beg the AFL for one game there as it would be worth $100,000s more for the same crowd. The Wellington game's made more than an entire season at Etihad. The new etihad/marvel deal should add ~ 2million to the clubs bottom line, bringing it up but still not to the same level of other clubs around the country. Additional funding from the AFL to North, Doggies and Saints is essentially re-compensation for the additional contributions they have made to the stadium in it's first 15 years. Each of the 3 clubs has lost tens of millions over that time period. Thirdly bad (read inexcusible) decisions. StKFC have made terrible decisions with player and coach payouts. They're not alone in that respect but recent/ongoing decision making doesn't seem to be improving. The move to Seaford was diabolical to players and fans. May as well set up the training ground in Geelong. Let's remember though that many clubs receive large grants from the AFL and from government's towards their facilities - for example the hanger out at Windy Hill. So here's my short list of unimpressive positive's from an awful 2018 - Consistent exposure and development of the very young (think Hunter Clark etc..) - A newly structured coaching system with (supposedly) more autonomy for the assistants - An ongoing and somewhat transparent conversation from the club to fans about the failure to meet basic expectations which has lead to restructuring within the club at all levels - Offseason recruitment that covered a number of bases (within the reality that in 2018 no A grade midfielder would consider moving to the club). - Billy Slater - whether it will make a tangible difference is unknown. Is it awesome? Undeniably. - Moorabbin is functioning and will hopefully provide a great base for AFLW and VFLW (apparently 1 in 6 women playing aussie rules in Melbourne is in the bayside area). Here's my negatives (a shortlist of many) 1. Terrible terrible horrible form. I don't buy the talent argument. I don't think we have a premiership team talent wise, but a significant number players do have the underlying talent to be excellent AFL level footballers. The last team to really embarrass Richmond prior their 2017 premiership was St Kilda, who have since never looked the same. I think there was huge a psychological issue at the club, and goal kicking is a good example - huge number of games with more behinds than goals, Membrey - 1.5 one week, 5.1 the following month. With our woeful goal kicking, after periods of midfield dominance early in games we would often have nothing to show on the score board, momentum would swing, heads would drop and disposal efficiency would plummet. Even if we were winning the contest, the turnover goals would pile on and by half time it would be game over. I think on field leadership was a big part of this, and a Hodge, Selwood or Cotchin type was really missing. 2. Coaching and Development - Are our prized recruits where they should be? No. - Were the gameday coaching tactics visible and were they responsive to the actions of the other team (one of my favourite attributes of the All Blacks). No. - Will this change in the space of 12 months? I'm not expecting miracles but Richardson will be looking for another job if there's not a significant improvement. I am typically pre-season positive about the new coaching staff. - I often wonder what our players would look like in other colours. What would Jack Steven look like if he had some support to take a tag? Would Billings be consistent at a club with more experience and leadership? etc.. 3. Wasted opportunity. I have to give the Good Friday game it's own section. I worked at Royal Children's and I saw the players of both teams at the hospital visiting many of my patient's. What an opportunity to give back to the community, gain a marquee game (so important!!) and exposure and personal growth for the team. I went to the game and was absolutely devastated by the state of play. I wanted them to win but really I just wanted them to play like it meant something to them, like it was more than just a standard home and away game and that they would fight for their opportunities. That opportunity is now gone and deservedly so. 4. The debt is looming. I expect inroads to be made this year, but let's be realistic, it's going to exist for several years to come. If that for some reason upsets you, maybe re-evaluate your priorities in life. Rant over. Hope for an improved 2019 after a tough year for this St Kilda, QLD reds, Aussie tennis, Aussie cricket, Socceroos and Wallabies fan. Wish me luck or recommend me a netball team, ideally a good one.

Nah, Ross don't do building, if he leaves Freo he'll look for another team about ready to peek. GWS if Cameron is moved on perhaps.

Maybe the Saints could steal Lyon back and swap him for Billing's.

It just seems like the Saints are something of a cipher these days. They just don’t seem to have an identity, and it’s hard to see them making much of an impression in the next 4 or 5 seasons.

I guess Carlton have 3 or 4 genuine stars, while the Saints have... Billings?

Nobody wants to hear there club is irrelevant but only a saints fan would think that they are relevant

Carlton is far better off than the 'Aints are.

No matter how you want to gloss over it, the debt is a real problem. The AFL have warned the Saints and the Saints have done NOTHING about it as it continues to increase. While a bunch of clubs have run 'debt demolition' campaigns St Kilda does nothing but put their hand out for ever bigger 'AFL Distribution' payments. In 2017 (haven't seen figures for 2018 yet) St Kilda ranked second last – ahead of only Gold Coast in sponsorship dollars. They are the only Melbourne club in the bottom five! St Kilda received $20,602,885 in AFL distributions – over $4 million more than the next highest Melbourne club (only the two expansion clubs and Brisbane received more – and those are understandable!). For every player you mentioned as a positive for St Kilda they all had qualifications – if this or if that. It's wishful thinking. Until and unless McCartin gets a run at it and finds form and manages to do it for more than a couple games he is a draft bust – like it or not. Billings could be a decent player but there is no guarantee he will be a great mid. Plenty of forwards have been turned into mids with limited success. The rest like Savage and Logan are just jobbers. All clubs have them and need them but they won't win you games, won't get people to buy memberships and aren't what will get you relevant. I don't have an issue with the Saints going after Hanneberry. It is a risk but the Saints need to take risks. The issue is giving a player that looks worn down and used up a five year contract. A two year deal with an option would have been sensible. Five years reeks of people (recruiters, CEO, Coach, etc) desperately trying to save their jobs and not caring what the future holds. The other issue is St Kilda held on to the worst coach in the league simply because they are too poor to pay him out. They are wasting yet another year. ST KILDA has outlined plans to win its second premiership before 2020 as part of a long-range strategic outlook that includes increasing membership, reducing debt and creating an "admired culture". This is from 2014: The Saints unveiled their "strategic framework" for 2014-2018 to the club's members and key stakeholders at their season launch on Thursday night. The vision is to ensure the club is "admired as a competition leader in recruiting, player development and coaching" by 2018. The plan is to deliver Grand Final success before 2020 – which will be the Saints' second flag after their sole 1966 triumph – and ensure the club is in the top four by 2018. Failed on every single point. Saints are as far – if not further – from winning a flag than they were when this five year plan started.

Trust me... they are, and if that doesn't convince you then the lack of comments on this article certainly will. The care factor is zero. In fact, I'm surprised that I spent 45 seconds of my life typing this.

Of course they aren’t, as the honor of being in the worst position in the AFL goes to Carlton.

I'm unconvinced.