Should Dean or the players Pay?

I think Adam Elliott should be mentioned on form. He’s clearly put on size in the off season and each week is a step up on what he’s produced in the past. As for Pay, he was always he night watchmen who will hand over to someone else before the end of the year when the club opens the cheque book and needs to attract new signings. I think he deserves better but he knew what he was getting into.

Hi Stuart, I think Pay has been given a fairly dud hand. Not only everything that you have mentioned above in regards to the salary cap and squandered talent, but then on the eve of the season he lost probably his two best strike weapons in Harawira-Naera and Okunbor. I don't think that's been explored enough. Those two players were the different players, in a fairly threadbare squad, who had made a big difference at the end of last season. I fear it's going to take the Dogs some time to get back to parity.

Great comment The way the Dogs attack reminds me of the dragons around 2016...waaaay to far from the advantage line. It’s pointless putting on second man and sweep plays 10 metres from the defence. They just stand back, don’t commit and adjust their line It’s the reason the dogs look so impotent in attack There was one try they scored against the Sharks (I think, or maybe the Dragons) where they put on the play closer to the line and Foran ended up putting Meaney over out wide...it looked crisp and clean and a million miles from what they normally do Not sure why the penny hasn’t dropped

Actually I think Dean Pay has had this team over-achieving for the last couple of years. This squad on paper is terrible and few would get picked up at other teams. Actually looking at the weekend squads even with Hoppa in 34-6 I think is a fair score line. Anything better and you need to give Pay some credit. If you were building a squad from both teams, Josh Jackson and Hoppa would be the only ones really looked at. They started off giving Parramatta a scare only allowing one try in. You can make excuses about that. First game of the season. All rusty opening week, yards yardage but look where Parramatta sit now? Second game they push NQ. Sure NQ aren’t travelling well but they have a far far superior side on paper. If we are to flog Pay for losing games, or performing poorly against teams then we have to give him credit when it’s due. Those two loses should have been blow outs. Then round three comes and they blow out to Manly. I’d call that par. Anything less than that and Dessie would have been blowing a gasket in the sheds surely? Round 4 they flog the Dragons 22-2. How Mary was even allowed to get to the press conference without being sacked I don’t know. Round 5 They get flogged by a white hot Roosters who had just done the Broncos 59-0. Still 42-6 is still way better than 59-0 but looking at the Roosters side there aren’t many teams in the comp that you’d be gobsmacked so see the Roosters beat them 42-6. Round 6 they lost by two to Cronulla. Overachievement by the Dogs, Under achievement by Cronulla. Overall, while Pay may not be the right man for the job at Canterbury Bankstown, he’s taken hold of a poisoned challenge and possibly ruined his future coaching possibilities by doing so. We may not ever know after being handed a basket case from Des Hassler. At least Parramatta had the smarts to cheat the cap then subsequently blow their roster up when “caught”. BA comes in and rights the ship in a fairly short amount of time. The dogs are in the hurt locker for the long haul I think regardless of the coach. I wouldn’t be surprised if it took another 5 years to be serious finals contenders.

Stu, the performance was atrocious, no doubt, though I wouldnt put it near the efforts from the Broncos in recent weeks. The Broncos have a far superior roster to the dogs, but they have no heart or desire, something the dogs can generally say they have. No one can argue the terrible position Dean Pay signed up for but the biggest issue is that we are not seeing improvement in the squad that is there. Attacking structures are minimal and predictable, passing is slow and not crisp which slows plays down, forwards are not rolling down the park because the play the ball and passing are too slow. Forwards are looking gassed which leads me to the next point - Bench rotations. The player selection and rotation off the bench has been puzzling for some time and while I think there has been some improvement here, it leaves a lot to be desired. Finally, as a coach with a poor squad, you need to control what you can control. Yes, it is a roster lacking talent, so then they should be training the house down to be THE fittest team in the NRL. You might not be able to coach natural talent, but the coaching team should then be drilling them to be fit so that they are not gassed on the field; missing tackles, slow to get back to the play, weak hit ups, losing the ruck. It truly pains me to see where the club is right now, from a powerhouse to the slums.

Probably because he is slow, has no direction, creativity and lacks the very fundamental ability of a half - The ability to pass! Sure, he can tackle front on well and occasionally land a bomb a meter out from the tryline, but really, what else does he add? For me, he is Michael Lichaa 2.0 - He completely stifles what little attack we have with poor passing. Up until last week against the Tigers, I had Wakeham as the 7 and Foran at 6 but it was a shocker for Wakeham, though to be fair, the dogs were bad across the whole park. With Averillo who I highly rate as a small shining light for the dogs and Hopoate out, the two most creative and silky players are MIA.

Foran should definitely be re signed. He owes the club and hopefully he repays the club with a fair contract price. I was a pay supporter, but he hasnt adapted to the new faster game. He is playing out the back to much and not playing at the advantage line. All the leading teams, Roosters and Parra are all playing with less structure and playing eyes up footy. This is a coaching problem, Foran and Wakeham both have vision but the game plan is too structured imo.

Yours is voice of reason.

DC, How does W$35K : D$25K : L$15K sound. If he happened to play 20 games it will have cost $700/ $500 /$300. Otherwise a maximum $500 for 2021. Take it or leave it.

He is not on the Casualty Ward listing. I would hate to see Lachlan go to the Broncos.

The coach isn't the one out on the field, missing tackles and giving away silly penalties. Had a pretty ordinary list with very ordinary list management in how the salary cap was structured. Any coach would have struggled.

Match payments only for Foran. No play, no pay.

Can't fault Pay because of what he's had to work with. At least the Bulldogs are giving effort in their games which is more than can be said from some other teams with far better talent. Look at the Dogs roster, who are the 'stars' of this team. Foran who's hardly on the park, Hopoate who puts in a solid performance every week and DWZ and Josh Jackson?. You're getting leftovers from other clubs to fill positions. Lewis was great at half but he has missed crucial tackles at times...odd given he is a great front on defender but his lapses cost which is why he's been replaced. Get Pay another decent spine player preferably a hooker and one or two other class players and then judge. See what the inclusion of Harry Grant has done for the Tigers, Koroisau for the Panthers. The 9 was a key spine position but now with the new rules I think it is the most important position on a team.

I just cannot comprehend why Pay is not playing Lachlan Lewis, he gives them a different dimension with his high kicking game, use him in combination with Foran who also can make a significant difference when he is on his game, especially his kicking and ability to break the defence close to the line. But they have to get there to be in that position and it is not happening. However, they are so predictable the opposition defence can read them like a book. No team can get a decent attacking structure in place if their forwards are not making decent ground and constantly dropping the ball. The couple of good games they have had they have had excellent completion rates but it is far from consistent and that comes down to training and coaching. That comes down to Pay. Possibly he is becoming far too structured trying to eliminate errors but it is predictable & clunky.

Yeah fair enough. Who would you boot first though, not taking payouts into consideration. Mary, Seibs, Green, Morris or Pay? For mine I would only get rid of Pay if I could bring in Griffin.

I can get behind re-signing Foran, if it’s for a reasonable amount that reflects his contribution and time on the paddock. Not anywhere close to a mill a season He’s one of the few experienced players we have, we look far better with him than without him and he’s probably the best half off contract at the end of this season Who were the targets? I take that with a grain of salt. I read Bateman, Cotric and Grant. I also saw something about Alex Johnstone In the last 8 months there’s also been Mitchell, Trbojevics, Koroisau, McCullough, Reynolds, Fifita, Dugan - we’ve signed none of them

Agree and then i ask you if Pay has developed the talent he has been given. Has he brought in juniors to breath in fresh blood and enthusiasm? does he have solid plans for new players for next year? Has he instilled discipline in the team? has he technical detail skill he can develop in attack and defence? has he studied the opposition to identify weaknesses? does he educate his players? I am not sure he has done these much. Now i compare him to Chelsea FC in the UK with a ban on purchases he has brought respect back to the jersey and demanded discipline and hard work. He has developed the young people to improve their game. Look at these teams and Craig bellamy - look for driven people who are good listeners. Bulldogs are a proud club and deserve a team and coach to establish themselves in the top 8 where they should always be.

In my opinion bulldogs are far from the worst team. I place them infront of titans, warriors, broncos, dragons and on par with the sharks and cowboys. Last year they were over-achievers. This year fans are wanting more from them which means they are not accepting having an inexperienced squad as an excuse. It's a good sign, means the re-builed is succeeding and the coach is doing something right. Having said that improvement is not going to be in a straight line, there are always going to be wobbles. I think to axe Pay now would be short sighted. He just isn't going that bad.