Depending on your viewpoint, the transition of Rugby Australia CEO Andy Marinos to the hot seat was incredibly poorly timed or is the mother of all career opportunities.
For many, an organisation that has overseen years of underperformance from its national side and professional franchises, presided over increasing disenchantment among grassroots participants, been riven by parochial in-fighting and mercilessly attacked by its previous broadcasting partner, and walked a perpetual financial precipice only offers a new CEO a poisoned chalice.
And that’s all before the impact of COVID-19 throwing schedules into turmoil and imposing a raft of hitherto unforeseen costs.
On the other side of the coin, it’s hard to envisage a better time for a motivated newcomer to take the reins. Savvy investors buy stocks and property on the lows, counterintuitive to the herd – in this case, the disillusioned hordes who viewed Australian rugby as unvaccinated, infected and in its death throes.
Stepping into the role in February this year, there’s barely been time for Marinos to catch his breath. But after a hectic initiation, there’s already a sense that fires on a number of fronts have been doused, and Marinos’s focus is pivoting – new buzzword: check! – to matters of strategy that will ensure Australian rugby thrives into the future.
Speaking one on one with The Roar, Marinos was sanguine about Rugby Australia’s current financial position, now in the second year affected by the global pandemic.
“Without doubt, this is another trading year softer than forecasts,” he says. “We anticipated further challenges, so to provide us with breathing space we consolidated our debt profile by establishing a short-term facility, some of which we’ve had to access.
“But we won’t come close to exhausting that facility, even with the expectation that 2022 won’t be trouble free either. It’s still a little early to be conclusive, but because of the restructuring and measures we’ve put in place, we expect to be in an improved position financially compared to where we were in 2020.”
(Photo by Mark Metcalfe/Getty Images)
Marinos is quick to stress that, despite the trials of the pandemic, funding to community rugby has not been reduced. His pledge is that no matter how tough things get, investment is not something Rugby Australia will walk back from.
“The biggest impediment to community rugby has actually been the lockdowns imposed by governments,” he says. “The main thing for now is simply to get people back onto the pitch and back to their club environments.”
I ask about the unforseen costs associated with the Wallabies. There’s a lot of excitement around players like Samu Kerevi, Quade Cooper, Sean McMahon and others returning to the fold, but surely they don’t come cheap.
“The biggest cost is not so much the individual contracts but the need to carry an extended Wallabies squad throughout this season understanding that it wouldn’t be possible to bring players in and out of camp in the usual manner because of COVID,” he says.
This is the other side of the COVID coin. In normal circumstances Dave Rennie and his coaching team would not be afforded the luxury of having so many players together at one time for so long. The benefit comes from exposing a deeper pool of players to the requirements of elite-level rugby – the level of conditioning, nutrition, preparation, performance that will ensure players not only compete for and earn Test jerseys on merit but develop the tool kit to be good Test players.
But what about the next 45 players down? Guys like Trevor Hosea, Jock Campbell, Sam Harris, Ryan Lonergan, Tim Anstee and so on – how do we ensure they aren’t left behind?
It’s clear that part of that responsibility is being sheeted home to Wallabies players to share their knowledge, to mentor and lead teammates, and to set higher standards when they return to their franchises. But the approach is systematic as well.
“We’ve put a lot of work into reviewing our high-performance structures,” Marinos says. “How we contract our players and how we get better alignment between the franchises and the Wallabies and other national teams.
“The focus is unashamedly narrower, directed at producing winning teams. We can only do this in a consistent, sustainable way if everyone in the game is aligned and pulling in the same direction.”
“I think we’re starting to see the fruits of better alignment already. I’m really encouraged by the dialogue and trust that has been built between the Wallabies and the franchises,” he adds before acknowledging that next year’s trans-Tasman competition will be another important yardstick.
Andrew Kellaway. (Photo by Getty Images)
Clearly there’s a delicate balancing act at play, with Marinos delighted at the popularity of the domestic Super Rugby AU, which exceeded the expectations of new broadcast partner Nine/Stan. On the other hand, Rennie and director of rugby Scott Johnson are also not shying away from having players tested against the tough New Zealand competition.
“I said from my first day on the job it’s critically important that all of our national teams perform and deliver,” Marinos insists. “It’s the catalyst for what happens in the game. That’s what inspires kids, engages communities, clubs and aspirational players, and it makes the product more attractive, which in turn flows into attendance and TV viewing numbers and sponsorships.”
To illustrate, Marinos points to the current broadcasting situation.
“We’re very happy with the mix of free-to-air and subscription, and what’s also fantastic for us is to have club rugby on the same platform as professional rugby. It’s great exposure for all of those players and it also works to bring all kinds of rugby closer together, under a single umbrella.”
Alignment and communication are constant themes throughout our discussion, including the topic of looming private equity investment in Australian rugby. I ask if Australia is advantaged by having observed the tortuous process undertaken in New Zealand.
“We’re obviously independent of that but also very interested, yes,” he confirms. “There’s not the same tension here with the players – it’s been a big part of my manifesto to have all parties aligned, and so Justin (Harrison) and the players have been around the table with us.
“There are a lot of variables still in play, but we’re very comfortable where things sit at the moment. When a deal is finally struck, we will use some of the money to tidy up our balance sheet, repay some short-term debt, but overwhelmingly our focus will be on establishing a secure, stable platform with which to leverage that investment into the future of the game.”
(Photo by Bradley Kanaris/Getty Images)
Alignment also references efforts being made to enable constitutional and governance reform that better reflects the various objectives of Rugby Australia, the state governing bodies and the game’s participants.
Those matters are still being worked through, but what feels different this time around is Marinos acknowledging how provincialism and parochialism have at times been negative forces but also recognising that the onus is actually on Rugby Australia to navigate beyond past perceptions.
“We have to demonstrate that we are transparent, open book and have the capability to steer Australian rugby in the right direction,” he says.
“There’s a lot of positive intent, and this is the way we can provide people with confidence and comfort that the game is in good hands and avoid the internal conflict that has at times held rugby back.”
Cynics might say that nothing quells a ten-captain revolt quite like a first-class seat on the gravy train, but the appointment of Phil Kearns to the role of executive director of the World Cup bid is a prime example of how acutely aware Marinos and chairman Hamish McLennan are of the benefits of adopting an all-embracing approach.
All three men plus World Cup advisory chair Rod Eddington and Australian Olympic Committee boss John Coates will soon head to the UK with the objective of returning with World Rugby’s ‘targeted dialogue’ stamp, which will effectively secure the 2027 World Cup hosting rights.
With a Lions tour scheduled two years ahead of that, these are important financial building blocks slowly being cemented into place. Older heads will know that those same foundations have been laid before. What remains to be seen is how this administration learns from the mistakes of the past and positions the game to take full advantage.
(Photo by Mark Metcalfe/Getty Images)
What about the role of SANZAAR?
“Everything’s in a healing mode at the moment. There’s so much change occurring, everyone is under financial and operational stress, so that’s drawn out a lot of emotion.
“What’s apparent, though, is when it comes to the crunch, as we showed with the Rugby Championship we all really want the same thing and we are able to work constructively to make things happen.
“Our biggest challenge is to figure out how we grow organically without damaging the core.”
There’s an obvious question around the integration of Japan and Fiji. Marinos makes it clear that while progress is being made, nothing is going to be rushed into.
“The Six Nations has a huge advantage around the proximity of the nations. Yet they brought Italy in before they were ready in a high-performance sense.
“We have to be certain that new sides can handle the travel and intensity week in, week out. To do that you need a lot of player depth and you need very strong high-performance structures in place.
“Obviously Fiji are now entering Super Rugby. We are working very closely with Japan. We play next week and are looking for more matches in the next couple of years. I’m sure that will feed into the discussion with SANZAAR when we get to determining where we head with the Rugby Championship.”
Having been its CEO for five years, there is no-one better qualified to discuss SANZAAR than Marinos. Fans have long expressed frustration with an organisation that has been largely anonymous and failed to connect with its supporter base. Marinos acknowledges the criticism but qualifies the situation.
“SANZAAR was set up as an unincorporated joint venture, which inherently meant that the self-interest of each nation took precedence,” he explains. “We should have moved to an incorporated structure.
“It would have made a huge difference to the Super Rugby competition to have had a more centralized, more autonomous operation with overarching sponsorship instead of having a different value proposition every time the TV was turned on in each country.
“We probably got away with it in the early years because it was fresh and exciting, but as time wore on and as the competition expanded and the quality became uneven we could see that wasn’t enough.”
If that sounds like Marinos is talking in the past sense, the reality is that, between South Africa increasing its presence in the UK and the ongoing pandemic, Super Rugby as we knew it is effectively dead and buried anyway.
“The focus now, for us and New Zealand, is around the trans-Tasman competition and making sure that fans here and around the world can clearly identify what it is and enjoy the benefits.”
(Photo by Dave Rowland/Getty Images)
The interview concludes with a quick run through a list of rugby’s global issues in light of the transformational change the game is going through.
Global season?
“Still a work in progress, the club-v-country dilemma still remains.”
Concussion?
“There’s a lot of effort going in, and at least there is now an understanding of the need to stay ahead of things.”
Laws?
“We’ve been too haphazard and reactive, which breeds inconsistency.”
Women’s rugby?
“Growth is great but we need to determine the pathway. Is it 15s, sevens or both? And how do we fund it properly?”
Investment?
“There are a whole lot of worlds colliding. That even affects things like the World Cup; for example, does it expand or does it contract?”
Rugby’s values?
“It’s no secret that we were very upset with the way our referee Nic Berry was treated during the Lions versus South Africa series, and we would have liked the matter to have moved on much faster.
“What makes rugby different to other games is respect for traditions and values, particularly related to referees. Sure, we need to tidy up our rules of engagement for before and after games so that everyone knows which lane they need to swim in. But there’s no doubt that the ball was dropped on this one.”
Marinos’s response sums up his approach in a nutshell – he’s not afraid to identify which causes are worth fighting for on behalf of Australian rugby but with a calm and rational demeanour and a willingness to ensure that everyone in the game is brought along for the ride.
The flames that have licked at Australian rugby in recent years have left it badly scorched. But by no means has it been burnt to a crisp. Green shoots are sprouting – the Wallabies are winning, Super Rugby trans-Tasman 2022 has a fresh feel about it, community rugby will return and the liquidators have turned around and gone home, their services not required.
Andy Marinos’s move into the hot seat may well prove to have been perfectly timed.
gatesy
Roar Guru
.. and yet, I spoke with a former grand slam Wallaby during the week who is convinced, it's still broke. Not sure I totally agreed, but I think that, in general, we are on the up.
Micko
Roar Rookie
My point was cookie is that the AFL came from expanding the VFL: a hotbed of arrogance and parochialism (sound familiar? :silly:). VFL clubs were failing, and it took others giving them big coin (WAFC etc) to place franchises in THEIR failing comp (West Coast etc) that paved the way for the success of the AFL.
Micko
Roar Rookie
That's the problem right there Joe: a poor footy comp run with a silly premise. The sport will never maximise it's potential like this!
Muglair
Roar Rookie
Again you don't address the issues I raise. The total problem is no long term strategy for 20 years. I didn't say at all that it was not easy, and I acknowledged "they pretty much did as well as could be expected". I was taking issue with the continual defence of the lousy and self-interested job Rugby Australia does. My understanding was that you were in marketing, so I take it you believe they have done a good job with that in the last 15 years? Rugby administrators have had it pretty easy with powerful people stepping in to help, and money available to do it. I will acknowledge they did a good job putting games on, but anything else really is a bit much.
Muglair
Roar Rookie
There you sum up the problem, we are going to outspend NZ and bring in a load of outsiders. Always the painless quick fix. That is why we will get PE, the only exception being if someone will lend us more than required with repayment structured towards the Lions and RWC 2027. I think there are 600 rugby clubs in Australia, basically left to flounder along. Most of the development is done through the private school system in Brisbane and Sydney. While it might be better done elsewhere the numbers are heavily reliant on them.
CW Moss
Roar Rookie
Sheeks on the money from my experience.
CW Moss
Roar Rookie
You’re not very confident Mug. I may know more from inside than you may realise. Let’s see how it pans out. What if AU can outspend NZ and there’s a tide of Pasifika expats eligible for the WBs for RWC 2027 in Oz, after our surprise appearance in the RWC 23 Final vs France. :laughing:
Geoff Parkes
Expert
Disagree all you like, mate. I've seen what the Franchise CEO's and RA senior execs have had to deal with, and I'm happy to cut them some slack, plus acknowledge the good job done to bring us the rugby we've had.
Muglair
Roar Rookie
Absolutely disagree Geoff. There was a short term crisis to deal with, a significant part of it due to the inept management, and total lack of strategy, of the prior much praised regime. That does not remove the need for strategy. When you are drowning in the surf 100m from the beach, it is fine to focus on keeping your head above water, but do not lose sight of the beach. It is challenging to have to keep changing short term plans, but it is very hard to keep making new short term plans if there is not a strategy on what direction you are going. There are hundreds of east coast clubs in crisis due to COVID and there has been no leadership or guidance from the governing body, let alone support. Rugby Australia has been in crisis for five years and strategically confused since at least 2003, but more probably since 1995. It sees itself as a "business" that sells competitions to broadcasters and sponsors, with a distant third objective of selling test match tickets. It has vague goals about total participation numbers which have actually been fudged quite a few times. As its performance declined it has even become pretty inept at that with the last broadcast tender offering up some potential team formats that could be supplied and asking broadcasters to suggest what competitions they would like run, and what they are worth. They were only capable of doing that because they paid a heap of money to consultants who were apparently more able than the board and executive. COVID at least allowed an uptick as the board was able to definitively settle on a domestic competition. It helps when the comedians running the country give you one card to choose. Of course we have gone backwards being unable to decide what to do in 2022, leaving the Kiwis to organise it, and then wait for us to decide whether we would participate. As you pointed out elsewhere we are absolutely joined at the hip and the Kiwis needed Australian sides to make it work. They did not need five though, but RA found it easier not to engage at all and avoid making any decisions for itself. As I often complain, having labelled rugby a business we don't get very good business people involved. In business terms I would see Rugby Australia's role as being far more complex than maximising the number of players entering at the bottom and selling competitions to broadcasters. The RA 'business' is primarily tasked with producing rugby players that are appropriately skilled, and mentally and physically prepared for professional rugby. It must then produce highly skilled and capable coaches who can mould those players into teams which can compete in marketable and profitable competitions which can be sold to broadcasters etc. Match attendance is really important because it is a driver of the value of broadcast rights and sponsorship. All professional games are advertised (I think 'marketed' would be a misnomer) as events, announced with an expectation that people will turn up if advertised cleverly. That would be poster ads in newspapers and video clips on TV with a call to action to buy tickets online. Frankly if you were offered a good slice of the attendance revenue over current benchmarks, would you market the games differently? COVID is a significant financial crisis for many businesses and Rugby Australia was caught in the middle with alternatives available to it. Alternatives where a lot of parties worked together for their mutual benefit. Its been tough, and fair play to them, they pretty much did as well as could be expected. Like a lot of other businesses failing pre COVID, it has also acted as a smoke screen around existing problems. The frustration on this string is really about the lack of assurance that there is nothing being done about the underlying problems. Private Equity investment does not address any of the underlying strategic problems. There is no evidence that the Board understands them anyway, let alone has a plan to do anything about them. It is an easy simple way to relieve the board of any responsibility that can be sold as a good idea. It certainly is not a "business' solution at all. There will be never an open book or transparency. Rugby Australia is run as a private company where there will be no scrutiny of its actions or performance. That matters because the real shareholders in the game are rugby supporters who also happen to be the end customer, for match tickets, TV subscriptions and sponsor products. My Dad died recently and his only nagging regret was not understanding why he fell out of love with rugby after 80 years playing and watching. I know why, he was disenfranchised.
Muglair
Roar Rookie
Sadly the odds are 'no' on that. Rugby Australia has zero strategy and no idea what its strategic role should be. 100% reactive to the consequences of their bad decisions, substantially delayed responses because of a refusal to acknowledge them. The 'time' when it will be told, is when the money starts to run out :crying:
BeastieBoy
Roar Rookie
the worst thing that can happen to us is if we get the World Cup. 2003 all over again. arnt we good arnt we good. arnt we really really good. Well, No you are not! the game has evaporated in this country and is dying even in the private schools. The pathways are narrow and limited to the connected few. the game is slow, predictable and boring. way too many breaks. it has lost continuity. the mob running it have not got the Nous to fix things and are hoping to win the world cup so they can pay off their debt. glad the wallabies are going better.. my family's connection to the game goes back to its origins, but im the last.. unfortunately as my new lot are turned off by all this..
CW Moss
Roar Rookie
Time will tell Mug lair :shocked:
Muglair
Roar Rookie
It will be a challenge.
The Late News
Roar Rookie
Rojer. My best mate just sold up and moved out of Bungendore. I know your part of the world reasonably. Very much enjoy your comments here...you are a fair judge of our beautiful game.
Ken Catchpole's Other Leg
Roar Guru
Tom, Ray Price came from a western valley, and played for his country in two codes. The year the RA and NSWR and the Shute Shield genuinely engage with Western Sydney will be the first year of a Phoenix rising. Panthers is one of the biggest sports clubs in the Southern Hemisphere, ffs.
Ken Catchpole's Other Leg
Roar Guru
“ Optimism, a fighting spirit, and simply playing the NZ teams more often is not a plan, and hasn’t worked in the past. Without a plan to increase the depth of the Australian teams, SRP won’t last past 2023” Well said Joe.
Rugby Tragic
Roar Rookie
I would have liked one last test against the ABs on the way to Europe I think they got it right, bank their gains ... I too think that the Wallabies will be extremely competitive next year with a few more tests under their belt. They have a bit of momentum right now, I say let them 'bank that' as a cornerstone to their visible improvement. Their wins over the Springboks, in particular the 2nd time around was huge in every sense of the word. That match alone has filled the "cups until they runneth over", they now need to keep their shape and build further. As I posted in other comments... look out 2022 but until then I just hope they look no further than their next test... Bring on next Saturday!
Sinclair Whitbourne
Roar Rookie
Well, next time I am heading to WA (might be a very long time), or you are over in the ACT let me know and we can catch up for a quick drink and talk rugby. Given your occupation, I just have to say 'keep on rockin''
Muglair
Roar Rookie
That is a good point re SL being a tech investor CWM. For me it just reinforces that these deals are so loaded in PE favour that it is almost just a side activity. There is not a lot of hard analysis required, or complex paperwork. No real execution or operational effort either. Alternatively they might think there is lots of low hanging fruit in the content to be channelled through other platforms they have invested in. Whichever way you cut it, I think NZ and Australia are just going to transfer a lot of value to PE for less than its worth. Plus the deal is oversized for the benefit of PE so more money than they need, increasing the chance of waste. I am not sure about defining “conflict of interest” as being the right term but they will act for themselves and be able to leverage the dual ownership. It means they might do something that is not in our interest, NZ interest or both. Geoff is right in that even if a SL initiative does favour Australia at NZ expense, it will still come back and bite us sometime. Not convinced about the value of finance smarts. I have been working on something which led me to an epiphany on why nobody has ever figured out how to influence directors of failing companies to take action earlier. It is a rare human being who likes to have their mistakes scrutinised and published, and directors will never voluntarily open their books to anybody. RA is notorious for the secrecy around what it does and Andy’s optimism is unfounded. Likewise a PE deal removes (or should remove) any risk of insolvency during the current terms of each director, and probably a further three year term for those that continue. It looks smart and sophisticated and can be spun as securing the future of the game. It will destroy rugby in Australia if they do not invest the money in the game properly but in that case the directors responsible will be long gone and forgotten.
Muglair
Roar Rookie
Right man, right time. He has probably the cleanest run at building something to last since Macqueen took over from Smith. I am pretty disappointed in Johnson, his apologists from previous gigs highlight that he works under the radar, but everyone at RA is also pretty discreet about his achievements. If Rennie does not coach after 2023 I hope he moves into a building role as rugby director or maybe even CEO. Coaching and playing pathways are a real problem, except in the forwards. I think there is less demand for the shape and style of athlete from other codes and the skills are easier to learn late. Backs are a problem, it is harder to add skills back in when you are already a professional player. I am always optimistic every year, but conscious of my weakness. I would have liked one last test against the ABs on the way to Europe, but at least we got to play them early on and realise how far off the pace we were. My Kiwi mates are looking forward to next year because they think it will be close.