“I can tell you what, he’s very very lucky not to get a red card,” said former Springbok, Breyton Paulse at halftime. The 27-9 victory to South Africa sets up an intriguing, and likely fiery, series decider.
Is there a rulethat you have to jump for the high ball when it's contested? We'll have to disagree about how realistic Kolbe's contest was in this particular case. But if there were a rule like that it would make a certain sense. As it is the player at ground level is pkaying it safe in a defensive positioning sense but taking a big risk cards-wise. Conversely the guy in the air takes a huge risk safety-wise but is really counting on the contact to bail him out if he gets it wrong. I feel like the stakes are too high both ways... More generally I'm more for referreeing intelligently and intuitively rather than the letter of the law. Marika's red and Bundi Aki's in the RWC were others where i think it's refs just applying the rules like a software would, no better than than someone who's never seen the game would. Bit of a different issue though
Geoff
The other way to look at this is Murray wasn't there then there's a good chance that Kolbe had timed his run perfectly would have caught the ball in mid stride and scooted down the sideline for a try.
Also when you slow it down and almost go frame by frame there Murray starts his jump at around the 26 second mark and is on the ground at the 27 second mark and at no time has Kolbe ever looked away from the ball so it was always going to be hard to get out of the way if running at full tilt and given that Murray was jumping in to him as well.
Also what obligation does Murray have towards Kolbe's safety, he led with a knee that could have resulted in a nasty injury if it had connected flush on the face. It almost seems that everything is at the feet of the defender. I go back to the fend that Tupou put on Simone back in Super AU it was forceful contact to the head, but everyone lauds it as a great fend; if you flip it and it is a defender making forceful contact to the head it's a red card every day of the week.
Sorry pm, but Kolbe wasn't realistically competing for the ball at all. He just stood underneath Murray. He either has to jump for the catch or stay out until the catcher has landed on the ground. Anything in between is asking for trouble.
The thing is, the coaches know this, the players know this and pretty much they have got used to it. Occasionally someone makes a slip up, and it's almost always an accident, but by and large, everybody seems to be managing this much better these days.
Geoff. I think they have the laws wrong. Kolbe was realisticay competing for the ball and didn't arrive late. Clearly.He just didn't jump first. The laws favour the bloke who jumps first. Makes sense safety-wise. But what they're asking of Kolbe is to stop competing for the ball, check if his opponent is jumping and then pull out completely if he is. Happens too quick to make that decision. Kolbe's better approach would have been to jump in case his opponent had first rafher than pursue his very realistic chance for the ball...The laws are wrong. Laws where you can get sent off definitively and suspended without reckless or negligent intent are just wrong.
Kobe is not a “tackler“. He is in position to catch the ball, looking up at the ball with his arms out to catch it. Murray leaps into his space. Dangerous player by the latter, in my view.
Yes I’d like to see more emphasis on what the tackler did wrong and less on the sheer luck that it did t go horribly wrong. Morally it’s a RC as far as I’m concerned.
in the good old days yes, unfortunately, in Rugby in the 2020's and onwards red card. the RWC2019 showed us that. Kolbe had eyes on the ball the entire time, he got to the ball and really didn't have to jump for it. Are players jumping for the protection that it provides because they cannot be touched while in the air? the biggest joke was how the Lions player landed on his "back" according to the video ref
“Well, for a start, the ref clearly states that Murray landed on his back when he clearly didn’t.”
I assume you read Geoff’s comment on this, it was posted hours ago.
Can you hear the ref at any point say, “eyes on the ball, so didn’t intend to do it, it was an accident” - or words to that effect?
Or can you hear, “reckless, high degree of danger, not in a position to compete” - or words to that effect?
Yes, it is explained poorly regarding how he landed - again dead Geoff’s comment - but arguing he landed face first, while also saying it should have been a penalty at most is simply illogical?
Lucky, because in the Premiership they RC it even if an arm/hand is used to break fall on head/neck. French, SA, OZ, NZ refs don’t. But there could’ve been cards galore in this test. BO’K was even in his decisions.
Bodger
Roar Rookie
Totally correct Geoff. Now why can't players just jump over a ruck to score? If they are touched it would be a penalty try. Wondered this for a while.
Double Agent
Guest
Nice save. :laughing:
Kent Dorfman
Roar Rookie
Bill Beaumont was too busy looking at the Olympic Rugby 7's
Kent Dorfman
Roar Rookie
if that were the case the headline would read "Disgusting / Disgraceful tackle" like every headline on yahoo mail
pm
Roar Rookie
Is there a rulethat you have to jump for the high ball when it's contested? We'll have to disagree about how realistic Kolbe's contest was in this particular case. But if there were a rule like that it would make a certain sense. As it is the player at ground level is pkaying it safe in a defensive positioning sense but taking a big risk cards-wise. Conversely the guy in the air takes a huge risk safety-wise but is really counting on the contact to bail him out if he gets it wrong. I feel like the stakes are too high both ways... More generally I'm more for referreeing intelligently and intuitively rather than the letter of the law. Marika's red and Bundi Aki's in the RWC were others where i think it's refs just applying the rules like a software would, no better than than someone who's never seen the game would. Bit of a different issue though
A rugby nobody
Guest
Geoff The other way to look at this is Murray wasn't there then there's a good chance that Kolbe had timed his run perfectly would have caught the ball in mid stride and scooted down the sideline for a try. Also when you slow it down and almost go frame by frame there Murray starts his jump at around the 26 second mark and is on the ground at the 27 second mark and at no time has Kolbe ever looked away from the ball so it was always going to be hard to get out of the way if running at full tilt and given that Murray was jumping in to him as well. Also what obligation does Murray have towards Kolbe's safety, he led with a knee that could have resulted in a nasty injury if it had connected flush on the face. It almost seems that everything is at the feet of the defender. I go back to the fend that Tupou put on Simone back in Super AU it was forceful contact to the head, but everyone lauds it as a great fend; if you flip it and it is a defender making forceful contact to the head it's a red card every day of the week.
Geoff Parkes
Expert
Sorry pm, but Kolbe wasn't realistically competing for the ball at all. He just stood underneath Murray. He either has to jump for the catch or stay out until the catcher has landed on the ground. Anything in between is asking for trouble. The thing is, the coaches know this, the players know this and pretty much they have got used to it. Occasionally someone makes a slip up, and it's almost always an accident, but by and large, everybody seems to be managing this much better these days.
pm
Roar Rookie
Geoff. I think they have the laws wrong. Kolbe was realisticay competing for the ball and didn't arrive late. Clearly.He just didn't jump first. The laws favour the bloke who jumps first. Makes sense safety-wise. But what they're asking of Kolbe is to stop competing for the ball, check if his opponent is jumping and then pull out completely if he is. Happens too quick to make that decision. Kolbe's better approach would have been to jump in case his opponent had first rafher than pursue his very realistic chance for the ball...The laws are wrong. Laws where you can get sent off definitively and suspended without reckless or negligent intent are just wrong.
Hanibal
Roar Rookie
Kobe is not a “tackler“. He is in position to catch the ball, looking up at the ball with his arms out to catch it. Murray leaps into his space. Dangerous player by the latter, in my view.
Tooly
Roar Rookie
No. Knees to the head of a player is a bigger concern.
fiwiboy7042
Roar Rookie
Ummm ... I watched it again after I unmuted it!
Ken Catchpole's Other Leg
Roar Guru
Agreed Fiwi, jumping is definitely a tactic.
Double Agent
Guest
How did you hear what the ref said if you had it on mute?
Red Rob
Roar Rookie
You are right Geoff but ‘somehow’ also reflects the sheer luck he didnt come down in his head.
Red Rob
Roar Rookie
Yes I’d like to see more emphasis on what the tackler did wrong and less on the sheer luck that it did t go horribly wrong. Morally it’s a RC as far as I’m concerned.
Guest
Guest
Kolbe not cited, so his action wasn’t deemed red card worthy.
Kent Dorfman
Roar Rookie
in the good old days yes, unfortunately, in Rugby in the 2020's and onwards red card. the RWC2019 showed us that. Kolbe had eyes on the ball the entire time, he got to the ball and really didn't have to jump for it. Are players jumping for the protection that it provides because they cannot be touched while in the air? the biggest joke was how the Lions player landed on his "back" according to the video ref
Paulo
Roar Rookie
“Well, for a start, the ref clearly states that Murray landed on his back when he clearly didn’t.” I assume you read Geoff’s comment on this, it was posted hours ago. Can you hear the ref at any point say, “eyes on the ball, so didn’t intend to do it, it was an accident” - or words to that effect? Or can you hear, “reckless, high degree of danger, not in a position to compete” - or words to that effect? Yes, it is explained poorly regarding how he landed - again dead Geoff’s comment - but arguing he landed face first, while also saying it should have been a penalty at most is simply illogical?
Harry Jones
Expert
Lucky, because in the Premiership they RC it even if an arm/hand is used to break fall on head/neck. French, SA, OZ, NZ refs don’t. But there could’ve been cards galore in this test. BO’K was even in his decisions.
Highlander
Roar Guru
He actually gets a supporting leg to ground first – as you say – Watch the video