By Paul
May 30th 2008 @ 8:51am
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Is Sydney’s sporting landscape dying?
A number of years back while sitting in a practical anthropology class the question was posed by the lecturer: “What is the single biggest factor about Australian culture that is unique?” The overwhelming response was our nation’s mad love affair with all things sport.
The reasons for Australia’s love affair with sport are hard to put the finger on.
Perhaps it is that we are a nation descended from underdogs and we love the chance to come from behind and win.
Perhaps it is that we want to be noticed by the world, and as we are a small country, sport gives us a chance to punch well above our weight in the world, and be noticed.
In Australia, there seems to be no city that has a bigger love affair with sport than Melbourne.
Perhaps the reasons for this can be found in Melbourne’s rapid rise to become the richest city in the British Empire on the back of the 1850s gold rush. The rapid rise in income turned Melbourne into Australia’s biggest city and gave people a lot of free time for recreational activities. It was in this climate that the sport of Aussie Rules Football was born and rapidly spread across the country.
Sydney had a different nature to Melbourne, its growth was more gradual.
Rugby Union came to Sydney in 1864, yet Aussie Rules did not make it there until 1877. Nevertheless, there was a large uptake of Aussie Rules in Sydney, so much so that the Waratahs club and Sydney University petitioned the NWSRU to change to Victorian Rules Football.
This was a little too much for the upper class Rugby Union administrators of the day, and the status quo remained. In 1903, Victor Trumper, the Australian test cricketer, set up an Aussie Rules football league in Sydney. In 1907 Trumper changed his mind and promoted Rugby League instead due to the potential money to be made from the game.
Sydney has always had more of a fractured football environment than Melbourne has. Until the dawn of Rugby League, there were two major football codes: Rugby Union and Australian Rules. After the decline of Aussie Rules, there was then League and Union.
Now in the early 21st century, Sydney again faces a fractured football scene. There are now four football codes competing for the Sydneysider’s attention.
Over the last 26 years, the Swans have made themselves a strong home, with many Sydney people warming to them and claiming them as their own.
Over the last 12 years Sydney have enjoyed Rugby Union at a professional level.
Then, over the last few years, Sydney have warmed to the new Sydney FC.
When the big picture is taken into account, professional sports are less attended than in the past. State of Origin Rugby League matches are no longer selling out. Rugby League attendance averages are hovering around 17,000, with some clubs failing to average 10,000. David Gallop, NRL Chief Executive, has warned that many Sydney clubs are facing financial crisis.
Rugby Union is not immune to struggles either. The sport is also struggling, and will sorely miss the $25 million that was denied to them in the recent Federal Budget.
The Sydney Football Club has had some high attendances in recent years. Most notably, the game against LA Galaxy attracted 80 000, although many argue that the majority were there to see David Beckham play.
But even the Sydney FC has not performed as well as Melbourne Victory. Sydney FC played to average crowds of 16,373 in 2007-8, while Melbourne Victory played to average crowds of 26,064.
Are Sydney people losing an interest in sport?
Perhaps Sydney people are overwhelmed and confused by four codes competing for space in the one city. Still, Sydney is increasingly becoming a cosmopolitan international city with its eyes towards the world. Perhaps it is forgetting its Australian cultural sporting roots.
Others have argued that Sydney traffic and public transport is so horrendous that people would prefer to stay at home and watch the game on TV.
Perhaps Sydney people do have less time for sport these days. The trend would suggest that the Sydney population may eventually support professional football codes to the tune of 1 or 2 AFL teams, a Rugby Union team, 1 or 2 A-League teams and 4 or 5 Rugby teams.
There are troubled times ahead for Sydney’s sporting landscape.
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bob said | May 30th 2008 @ 2:28am | Report comment
maybe it a time thing… you have to wait and let the people come to the sports, not try to force it. The population is changing, and the tastes will change, but there’s no reason why choice and variety will dampen interest, I think interest will be dampened if all the sports seem the same… but a country can’t always punch above its weight… these things are cyclical, and maybe this is a quiet time for aussie sport. But perhaps too, sport isn’t in schools like it was? The love of sport is usually formed very young, as is the desire to win… and the willingness to watch an event live comes from that early desire to play. Aussies always have had a good sporting attitude, all bagging aside, they win well, and lose well… they don’t usually bleat and whinge… except John O’Neill perhaps… and the country will be poorer if sport is falling down the agenda in schools!
sheek said | May 30th 2008 @ 7:04am | Report comment
Well written Paul,
It’s interesting to note that water sports have played an integral part in Sydney’s recreation from inception. The early colonists indulged in rowing & sailing, two sports that reached their peak in the late 1880s to early 1900s it seems, & continue to be popular today.
Then in the early 1900s came beach swimming, followed by surf carnivals, while board surfing took off in the mid 1950s, I think it was. Unlike Melbourne, our surf beaches are virtually minutes away. In a city where travelling is burdensome, this is a positive.
Horse racing & cricket were other pursuits that entertained Sydneysiders over 100-150 years ago. Melbourne’s rise coincided with the defining of football into variously association, rugby & Australian. As you suggest, Melbourne exploded in the 1850s & was primed to accept Australian football from inception.
On the other hand, Sydney had already established an order of recreation, & new sports had to fit in around existing pursuits. At least that’s my take on it. Also, the transport problems can’t be underplayed. Ease of egress to & from venues/places is critical to human development. And the ease of travel around Sydney is diabolical.
Savvas Tzionis said | May 30th 2008 @ 8:27am | Report comment
This is how articles should be written!!!
The author has noted various unskewered facts and offered opinions and thoughts.
So many other writers here are so biased it is ridiculous.
The Link said | May 30th 2008 @ 9:16am | Report comment
‘When the big picture is taken into account, professional sports are less attended than in the past’
This is a very football centric view of sporting attendences in Sydney / Melbourne. How are the crowds for Cricket faring? At the very least test match attendences in Sydney are at a record high (can anyone confirm?). What about Horse Racing?
Zach said | May 30th 2008 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Sydney Football Club is the official name of the Swans. Sydney FC is the name of the soccer club.
Michael C said | May 30th 2008 @ 10:53am | Report comment
I was interested recently when I stumbled across Sweeney report figures for surfing, and some of the biggest results for ‘interest’ were places like Tasmania.
The article treads carefully the ages old Sydney-Melbourne rivalry - - on that note - as per others above - -well written - - I think you’ve avoid offending people.
I’ve seen theories about why a game like Aust Footy evolved in Melbourne - -i.e. no off-side, and higher scoring, seemingly evident of a greater sense of desire for a fair reward for a fair days work - - i.e. the industrial unionist theory that is perhaps most easily converted to practice in a city such as Melbourne in that glittering gold rush cashed up era. Certainly - -it was a natural that people would flok to the games, pay for admittance and at least under the counter professionalism occur.
At any rate - - I was just yesterday having a little look at ABS stats - - comparing NSW to the rest of the country:
NSW represents 52% of the nations soccer participants, and 54% of the nations RL participants.
compare to Victoria which represents 49% of the Aust Footy participants.
However - - how representative is Sydney of the rest of the country?
The next best soccer states are Vic 18%, QLD 15% and falls away to 6% in WA, 4% in SA.
RL -
41% in QLD, next best, NT with about 3%, none of the other states register on the ABS radar.
RU
57% in NSW.
Aust Footy -
after Vic,
WA 19%, SA 14%, QLD 11% (perhaps a surprise), Tas 4% and NT 1% (which is actually a bigger quantity than the RL 3%).
This makes obvious the known elements - that we have a ‘fractured’ nation.
And, what NSW concentrates on - - it dominates the nation. Now NSW is 33% of the Australian population.
Therefore, to SO dominate 3 codes, soccer (52%), RL (54%) and RU (57%) - - it shows that NSW is actually a little out of step with the rest of the country.
It shows that NSW and Sydney is a bit of a stand alone bastion. And - - - somewhere down the line, Sydney perhaps needs to become a little less ‘fragmented’ - -
btw - the fact that AFL didn’t register in NSW on the ABS radar is indicative of the folly of claims of an AFL vs NRL war!!!!!
The obvious fact is that Soccer, RL and RU - - are all unhealthily concentrated in the SAME market.
btw -
a couple of interesting points:
Of these -RU is the most likely to be Organised Only - - 87%., RL and AF 74%, (outdoor) Soccer 59%!!!!!, (non-org ONLY runs at 32%). That’s interesting - - also, because, indoor and outdoor cricket are around the same 36% and 35% respectively).
Gender split -
soccer (outdoor) is 74% male, RL runs at 100%, but that’s where touch football comes into it, which is 58% male.
RU and AF are both 90% male.
actually, on the male front,
within the primary ‘home state’, outdoor soccer has 162K male participants inside of NSW vs AF with 120K inside of Vic.
RL has 49K inside of NSw, and RU has 40K inside of NSW.
outside of the main ‘home state’, outdoor soccer has 150K male participants outside of NSW vs AF with 120K outside of Vic.
RL has 42K outside of NSw, and RU has 31K outside of NSW.
I hope you see where I’m coming from here - - NSW and Sydney is perhaps too dominating of too much - - for 33% of the population, it seems odd that NSW dominates 3 main football codes with participant shares of over 50% - - that’s a fair skew.
No wonder the Sydney sporting landscape is confused. And, no wonder there’s such high levels of ‘regional’ contest for example soccer vs RL with a fair regional overlap.
Now - - this is an issue I guess for some of the Aust Footy states - - where Sweeney reports have shown AFL to be a clear leader with daylight to the next (contender). The fact for quite some time has been more ‘unified’ (myopic, closed) sports market - - less confused, a closer parallel of the AFL community to the general community. This is now being threatened like never before.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Will there result a greater ‘fracturing’ of the Melb sporting landscape for example? Or - - is it so entrenched that it can be absorbed, and may actually be a good thing to keep the ‘main game’ a little more ‘honest’.
Lazza said | May 30th 2008 @ 11:31am | Report comment
A bit of competition keeps everyone honest. I don’t agree that Soccer is in ‘competition’ with the other codes except for participation levels. It’s a summer sport in this country.
The real competition is between RU/RL and AFL for the winter market. At the moment only Cricket and Football are true national sports. AFL and RL may have impressive support, especially AFL, but it’s concentrated in about 50% of the country.
The only reason those great sports are not national games is because no-one had the vision or foresight till the 1980’s to expand and promote those games. It will be interesting to see how the winter market pans out in the next few years.
Michael C said | May 30th 2008 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Lazza -
certainly true re the winter TV ‘market’, which for now, is a nationally fragmented market - - - and, in reality - -always WILL be for a regular club competition - -
- - however the participation and therefore the community participation is all across winter - - that’s more what I mean.
Traditionally - in a MElb type market, all the schools played footy - - you didn’t have Sydney type scenarios of having primarily RL vs RU type schools that split the community demographic.
At the grass roots level - - the more that playing a single sport will expose you to people from all cross sections of your broader community - - perhaps the better.
I could recognise that for some - - soccer might be seen as that vehicle for Sydney??? To bring people together?
I just wonder how badly shaken Sydney was by the Cronulla riots.
In Melb, around the time of gangs and ethnic tensions in Sydney - - here in Melb we had our criminal violence nicely organised - - i.e. via the organised criminal community now portrayed in Underbelly.
However - - since then, we’ve seemingly had more violence on the streets, more issues with gangs and the like - - perhaps, just as the presence of the Soviet Union provided an uneasy ’stability’ - - likewise the dominance of slight more organised crime factions.
Anyway - - whole point is the need for sports to play a unifiying role in the community rather than divisive; to break down barriers rather than creating demographic silos.
that’s all. Just introducing city specific broader social issues!!!!! (but, I’ve avoided religion, and will do my best to - - although, note the lack or orange and green in AFL team colours!).
Millster said | May 30th 2008 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Very interesting stats MC.
I’ve got to say, my reaction is that I’d be horrified to be a sports administrator in NSW. But as a fan, it is a delightful smorgasbord of options that we have up here….
True Tah said | May 30th 2008 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Millster definitely agree,
don’t agree that Sydney’s sporting landscape is dying at all- its just that within the past 10 years we have become increasingly spoilt for choice, and not only with following our various sports, we have a stack of other things to do up here as well.
All sports have the capacity to be seen as a vehicle for bringing people together, although the fragmentation Michael C refers to is becoming far less pronounced.
Paul said | May 30th 2008 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Link, Sheek,
You are right, this was a somewhat football centric article. I wanted to throw the topic up for discussion, but did not research the depth of all sports to do so. I know that cricket is still doing well. But football codes are the staple of sports in Australia. When all football codes are combined there is greater participation and attendance than cricket. Cricket still rates as Australia’s overall “favourite” sport, but not the most popular in terms of participation and attendance. Cricket is still my favourite sport to play and watch. There is a revolution going on in the cricket world and we shall have to wait and see what happens there too.
Interesting to hear your comments on sailing, rowing and surfing. This would explain the Sydney to Hobart yacht race. Even though the initial race was only held in 1945, the two cities are the oldest in Australia and perhaps they had the strongest sailing tradtions of all cities.
It is also very true that Melbourne’s explosion paved the way for the indigenous code to flourish. Sailing is a sport that requires more money to participate in, and would have precluded a lot of people from participation. The advent of surfing opened up water sports to a lot more people, but a surf board still costs a lot of money.
For participation in sports it is interesting to look at the Australian Bureau of Statistics (I just had a look now).
Participation in NSW for the year 2005-06 (Census year) Selected sports (Aussie Rules not included in stats)
(Male and female combined). Bearing in mind that some of the traditional sports are more highly participated in my males.
Walking for exercise: 1 206 500
Aerobics: 659 600
Swimming 556 400
Tennis 309 000
Cycling 298 300
Golf 277 000
Running 244 500
Soccer (outdoor) 219 800
Bush walking 195 400
Touch football 131 000
Surf sports 130 100
Netball 121 500
Yoga 113 300
Basketball 98 100
Lawn bowls 89 100
Cricket (outdoor) 85 900
Fishing 85 500
Martial arts 70 800
Dancing 68 700
Squash & racquetball 64 000
Weight training 64 000
Ice and snow sports 62 300
Soccer (indoor) 59 700
Motor sports 53 000
Rugby League 49 500
Horse sports 46 300
Rugby Union 44 700
Gymnastics 38 000
Cross country running 33 500
Pilates 32 700
Sailing 32 500
Total 5 540 700
There is going to be some overlap in these figures. with some people participating in more than one sport. But there are also some sports that did not make it on to the list- Indoor Cricket and Aussie Rules Football. The figure still seems to be quite a healthy one, but it can certainly be argued that not enough people participate in sport as shown by fitness levels around the country. Perhaps it should be a lot higher.
Of the traditional ball sports: Tennis 309 000; Golf 277 000; Soccer 219 800; Touch football 131 000; Netball 121 500; Basketball 98 100; Cricket 85 900; Rugby League 49 500; Rugby League 44 700.
If touch football is included with the two rugby codes 225 200 is slightly higher than soccer’s 219 800. I am not sure how much transfer there is from touch football to the Rugby codes. Both Rugby codes have low participation, and this will not bode well for future recruiting for their respective competitions.
Total participation is at 103.4% of society, so then it comes down to overlap to know how active people are. But the traditional sports are not extremely high on the list.
(Sports included 31).
The same figures for Victoria:
Walking for exercise: 971 600
Aerobics: 476 700
Swimming 323 300
Cycling 256 100
Golf 236 900
Tennis 191 300
Running 171 000
Australian Rules Football 132 500
Netball 126 900
Cricket 113 800
Bush walking 112 400
Basketball 106 400
Soccer outdoor 76 700
Lawn bowls 67 700
Yoga 64 800
Soccer indoor 62 900
Fishing 54 600
Dancing 50 500
Ice and snow sports 50 300
Martial arts 50 000
Squash / racquetball 42 600
Horse sports 33 900
Volleyball 33 500
Gymnastics 32 000
Weight training 30 600
Badminton 28 800
Motor sports 26 300
Cross country running 19 900
Total 3 943 000
Participation rate: 98%. (sports included 28)
Interesting point of comparison: Cricket has a particpation of 113 800 (8.8% of men participate) compared to NSW 85 900 (3% of men). This does rase some controversial questions about the selection process for the Australian team. It has been argued that poor quality wickets at the MCG in recent years have affected the quality of the game in Victoria.
Soccer is the single most popular football code in NSW, Australian Rules in Victoria.
There are a lot of sports that are much more popular than the football codes.
Bob,
On sports in schools, I read an article recently that said a certain school in Australia has banned the game of “tiggy” or “chasey” in the school grounds, for “safety reasons”. If schools progress with this attitude they made remove sport from our society altogether. So it certainly does place a question over how sports are approached in schools.
Lazza said | May 30th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
If Cricket is doing so well why was there a lot of media talk in the summer about whether football had become our No. 1 summer sport?
The No. 3 ranked nation, Sri Lanka, didn’t seem to capture the imagination of the public and A League games were getting bigger attendances. The Soccerroos can sell out a game for the 96th ranked team.
Besides an Ashes series which means more to us than the majority of English sports fans I don’t think too many other nations would be huge draw cards. Perhaps Cricket really does have to become like other sports and have a club based competition in 20-20?
Michael C said | May 30th 2008 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Cricket is always a hard one to get a real measure on as it can vary so much based on who is playing the tests - - and crowds, averages vs aggregates etc relative to the ruddy weather!!!!
Lazza - a lot of that talk was alarmist, the SL crowd figures actually weren’t too bad, just, too many people were comapring to the previous years Ashes series.
And, then the Indians came, and everyone was happier again in cricket world.
So - the talk about soccer being number 1 summer sport was a little premature (not to say it may not happen - - and, in a sense, soccer could well be the number 1 summer ‘club competition’)
True Tah -
I reckon, this new ‘e-connected’ world we live in allows greater diversity, and hopefully will avoid silo style fragmentation…….after all, look at all of us on here!!!!
Paul said | May 30th 2008 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
Lazza,
I agree with Michael that there has been some alarmist talk about cricket figures being down. Cricket figures are still quite healthy. The big factor though is that as cricket has only ever been a representative not a league sport, people only turn out to see the best, i.e Australia. And this only happens a few times a Summer.
I think it is inevitable that a League based Twenty 20 will come to Australia in the not too distant future. India have led the way in this revolution (Australia did in the World Series revolution). Australia and England will make a decision within the next couple years and ramp up professional league cricket. It will be interesting to see how Sydney people respond.
40/20 said | May 30th 2008 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Paul would you care to point out which nrl club in sydney has an average bellow 10,000
Next time do your research and dont just make up **** like all the other hacks on this website
JimC said | May 30th 2008 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
Paul - SOO “no longer sells out”
Do some research.
20 years ago (that would be 1988)
SOO1 SFS - 26000
SOO2 Lang park - 31000
SOO3 SFS -16000
It was a great series, just like 2008 one is becoming. i don’t recall alot of handwringing about crowds.
Spiro Zavos said | May 30th 2008 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
From the perspective of sports writer and as a fan of many sports, there are two elements about the Melbourne - Sydney sports interest discussion. The first is that Melbourne is the capital of a state that was a leading protectionist state. This protectionist attitude has infected (or protected, depending on your passions) the general attitude towards new things from outside the state, including sport.
NSW was a leading free trade state and Sydney as a port city was the main protaganist of this attitude. This free trade mentality means that in general there is a greater willingness to embrace things, including sporting teams, that have moved into Sydney from outside the state.
The protectionist attitude and the free trade attitude probably means, as well, that the passion for a team is likely to be not as deep as in Melbourne. Sydneysiders are notorious for not supporting their team, in any code, if it is not doing well. In Melbourne children are born into the colours of their club and, like Catholics, are branded for life.
Then there is the transport system in relation to the main sporting grounds. The system is superb in Melbourne and hopeless in Sydney. Going to the ANZ Stadium at Homebush is OK but coming back is a nightmare on a big sporting occasion.
Redb said | May 30th 2008 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
Spiro,
Some interesting observations, not sure I agree with a polar attitude approach between totally protectionist and totally free. It is true that Melbourne has been more singularly focused on one code of football where as Sydney has generally had 2 to 3. However, I think youv’e missed the biggest element behind Melbourn’e passion for Australian rules - it is our game.
In Sydney’s case all other codes are imported from elsewhere. Melbourne has a sense of ownership of AFL its why fans are more passionate and defensive of criticism of the code from outsiders - it is our game, our culture, our heritage. It may also be a bit obsessive too
I guarantee the same mentality exists in the USA towards baseball and gridiron towards ‘foreign’ sports.
I often think folks from Sydney are poorer for it - they dont the passion for their club, its colours, its song - the players. In AFL the best players rarely leave the club in other codes they seem to play musical club chairs.
Sydney seems to be interested in most sports but rarely fully commits to any I think partly becuase of that lack of ownership compared to Melbourne.
Finally, Sydney rugby league fans seem every bit as one eyed about their code as Melbourne AFL fans - the difference is there is about 3 times as many that are tragics in Melbourne.
Interesting topic.
Redb
Paul said | May 30th 2008 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
40/20
I haven’t just made things up. The figures may be a little out of date now, but earlier in the season NRL clubs were averaging the following figures:
Canterbury Bulldogs: 24 279
Gold Coast Titans: 22 645
South Sydney Rabbitohs: 21 404
North Queensland Cowboys: 20 147
Parramatta Eels: 20 121
Newcastle Knights: 17 675
Wests Tigers: 16 410
Sydney Roosters: 15 431
Melbourne Storm: 15 402
New Zealand Warriors: 14 227
Canberra Raiders: 14 063
Cronulla Sharks: 13 852
Manly Sea Eagles: 12 800
St George Illawara Dragons: 12 493
Penrith Panthers: 9 171
So, I made the mistake of saying “some clubs” instead of “one club”. Sorry for that. It was a little provocative, but not entirely inaccurate.
Thanks for the label of “hack”, I really appreciate it. I hope you can offer up something better in the near future 40/20.
Michael C said | May 30th 2008 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
Spiros:
Actually -
Melb PT can be over rated.
And, depending where you are trying to get home to, you often still have to try to get back to Flinders St, or end up on a merry waste of time last night loop around the cityloop - where you see those poor tragics getting on at Parliament station after another 15 hour workday……
Protectionism vs Free Trade:
hmmm,
republican (Melb) vs royalist (Syd)
independantly proactive (Melb) vs Imperial outpost awaiting Imperial orders (Syd)
initiative and ability to go it alone (Melb) vs retain and strengthen links to the old dart (Syd)
I could make arguments supporting each of the above,
and each might be just as much a generalisation as protectionist vs free trade,
however -
Sydney is a port city……
hmmmm……guess what…..so too is MElbourne, in fact it’s by many measures Australias busiest port (I think Newcastle claims on some measures, and Brisbane is 3rd).
I think you must be forgetting what many Melbournians forgot to show off for many years - and that IS that Melbourne IS a ‘water city’.
actually - 2 googles:
“Australian Protectionism Melbourne” - result 12,300
“Australian Protectionism Sydney” - result 41,200
- - - - -
I might argue that to a large degree, Aust Footy, once established (WHEN IT DID and WAS - - and this is the critical bit - - TIMING) - - that Aust Footy was pretty well self-protecting.
It had ticked all the required boxes at the time - -
it was well established - i.e. the VFA formed by 1877 - before anyone had really got serious about ANY form of football in Sydney - - let alone that soccer in England was only just reaching it’s final stage via the effective hybrid rules of London and Sheffield, that RU was only eventuating,
so, that, 30 years hence, the ‘damage’ had been done. There was no looking back. Just as Soccer stole the march in England with respect to codifiying and going professional and going OUTSIDE of schools, and that Rugby - despite existing ok, has never really threatened soccer since - - is that a ‘protectionist’ plot? Well, of course not. It’s just who got in first. In Sydney, no one had done that, the fact that Sydney was still in a state of flux basically 100 years ago - - to me, says more, at very least, it’s about 1 or 2 generations behind MElbourne on this issue.
Paul said | May 30th 2008 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Jim C,
Regarding State of Origin, it was a little anecdotal I know, based upon the recent game not selling out. I threw that in to add some spice to the discussion, but nevertheless, professional sporting attendances in Sydney are down, and I was trying to explore the reasons why. Perhaps you would like to join in the research and offer some reasons?
Michael C said | May 30th 2008 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
Redb -
ownership - -
I still find it amazing how soon (by the 1920s) that basically all the English top division clubs were ‘privately owned’ - - although, a greater ‘community’ local ownership than the current ’single foreign billionaire’ model!!! However, seemingly, plenty of fans (customers) still are attached to the clubs.
The NRL seems a bit all over the shop, with privately owned clubs, leagues club sponsored/owned clubs - - is it the NQ Cowboys have effectively been sold out of by News Ltd and they might now be a member based club????
At any rate - - ownership wise, AFL club members ARE part owners of their clubs - - well, at least from the perspective of voting rights, rights to ‘form a ticket’ etc. Any Joe member can petition for an EGM and seek to form a ticket. Okay - - you’re still most likely to get up with top end of town ticket members - - but, it’s still the case that the VFL/AFL model is that the customer (club member) is so much more than JUST a customer.
(thankfully, certain AFL experiences with private owners have been and gone, and hopefully not to return, now we just need my club North Melb to sort out the very specific ’shareholder’ structure that once rescued the club, and once almost saw Carlton BUY the club)
btw - Go the Green Bay Packers - - another fine member based club - stands out like a beacon in the NFL. Blessed are the cheeseheads!
sheek said | May 30th 2008 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
Here’s something to ponder.
In about a decade from the late 1840s to late 1850s, the population of Melbourne exploded off the back of the gold rush. Whether diggers made a fortune was one thing, but those who came to service them certainly did!
In any case, Melbournians seemed to quickly develop a middle-working class with good leisure time to kill. Today’s spin doctors would call Melbourne a ‘greenfields’ site, ready for exploitation by a new idea. That new idea was Australian football.
The first orgainized games were in about 1858, & played under mostly rugby rules. Simply because a group of people simply don’t decide to play a new sport with all the rules bedded down just like 150 years into the future. The game had to evolve.
Anyway, with very little previous infrastructure to interfere, Melbournians took up the new game quickly. Spiro’s protectionist theory does have credence.
Up in Sydney they were more or less abreast of things in Britain, where debate was raging between association rules football (soccer) & rugby rules football. Again, following Spiro’s open trade theory, Sydneysiders were more open to new & varying influences.
By the time Australian football tried to break into NSW & Qld, rugby was firmly established. And when professionalism arrived, it allowed rugby players to initially play much the same game before more radical rule changes differentiated rugby league from rugby union.
It could be argued that Aussie rules arrived a little too late in NSW & Qld. Both states very nearly crossed over, but the opportunity to travel to the UK, & receive visitors, playing rugby, was a prime reason rugby held its ground.
This is just another thought to take on board.
And Michael C, don’t knock Melbourne public transport. However bad you might occasionally think it, it still leaves Sydney for dead! The public transport arguement is a valid one also.
Think about this - PNG is one of the most inhospitable countries to traverse, with jutting mountain ranges, deep valleys, raging rivers, & impenetrable jungles. When the Europeans arrived they were staggered to discover (over many years, of course) that there were over 700 different language dialects.
Two tribes living in adjoining valleys, separated by a mountain range, may have lived side by side for a thousand years, & evolved different languages, unaware of the other’s presence. Today, you still can’t drive from the capital Port Moresby to any of the major towns on the north coast or highlands. So ease of transport does matter.
Redb said | May 30th 2008 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
“By the time Australian football tried to break into NSW & Qld, rugby was firmly established. And when professionalism arrived, it allowed rugby players to initially play much the same game before more radical rule changes differentiated rugby league from rugby union.
It could be argued that Aussie rules arrived a little too late in NSW & Qld”
Sheek, this statement lends towards a protectionist stance in Sydney does it not?
Redb
sheek said | May 30th 2008 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
Redb,
I don’t think so. Look at it from the angle of Sydney being a household full of apples when the orange seller knocks at the door. The owner says, “sorry mate, those oranges look real nice, but I’ve got too many apples to get rid of for the moment to worry about oranges”.
The point I was trying to make was one of timing & opportunity. Rather than protectionist, the ‘house full’ sign was up.
No Idea FC said | May 30th 2008 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
two reasons
Not sure where I got these quotes from but
Sydney is the City of the one night stand.
We go to grand finals, Olympics and ships ( the big ships that came into the harbour)
Sydney Only goes out when it knows other people are watching
The Beckham game, Olympics
Michael C said | May 30th 2008 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
Sheek -
did you see the pictures on the Age (probably SMH too) site of the ‘discovered tribe’ in Brazil………now……we need to show them soccer, footy, RL and RU and let them choose!!!
Remember the 1858 timing thing - - don’t underestimate the importance of the co-incidence of the gold rush wealth PLUS the publication of ‘Tom Browns school days’ - - that popularised to that middle class the notion of playing ‘football’. Otherwise, it might just have been Tom WIlls other suggestion of rifle club that ‘took off’ and might have made Melbourne a city the late Charlton Heston would’ve been proud to call home!!!!
There effectively was zero ‘football’ infrastructure anywhere - especially in the public domain. NOw, if you suggest that more well heeled schools in Sydney had already chosen a ‘rugby’ style game path - - then, there must be just as vaild a protectionist argument aimed at them.
Actually, when Aust Footy was first having a bit of a crack, was just on the eve of the formation of the NSWRL in the wake of the All Golds tour - - Rugby was NOT YET firmly established - - as there was certainly wavering sentiment - - Rugby Union via the schools was entrenched I guess, but, in the public domain - -that was a space up for grabs - - had the All Golds tour happened 3 years later - - who knows - -
there were short windows of both opportunity taken and missed
Redb said | May 30th 2008 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
Sheek,
Was not the house full sign up in Melbourne for the last 100 odd years? I’m suggesting that Melbourne already had a football code it embraced and loved, why look at anything else?. We have all the apples we want too
The history of Australian football in Melborne reveals that it had the population well and truly engaged by the late 1800s. I don’t doubt there is an element of protectionism that enmates from being the origin of the game in Melbourne, but would equally argue that many older Sydneysider consider VFL/AFL a Melbourne game and that in itself creates a closed attitude to other forms of football as opposed to the ‘free trade’ Sydney ideal as originally suggested by Spiro.
In short both Melbourne and Sydney can be accused of being protectionist towards each other.
Redb
Redb
sheek said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
Redb,
Your opening para & 1st sentence 2nd para are spot on. Explains it well historically. Victorians embraced VFL/AFL while NSW & Qld dithered between rugby & soccer, then Aussie rules, then back to rugby, then league.
Let’s not get too literal about protectionist & free trade. I think Spiro’s argument is largely valid historically, perhaps more in spirit than in practice. Nor did I detect it as being a slur of any kind.
It’s an interesting exercise to look at the slightly different ways each capital city evolved, & the characteristics that emanated from that evolution.
I’ll have to read my sporting history again, but let me tell you, it was a very close run thing, getting Australian football up in NSW & Qld. Very close run.
Lazza said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
“it was well established - i.e. the VFA formed by 1877 - before anyone had really got serious about ANY form of football in Sydney - - let alone that soccer in England was only just reaching it’s final stage via the effective hybrid rules of London and Sheffield, that RU was only eventuating,”
The FA Cup began in 1872 and is I believe the oldest sporting competition in the World.
All ball sports were formed in the 1800’s with the invention of synthesised rubber. That was when a ‘bladder’ could be kicked around without bursting. That’s also the reason why the ancients did not have ball sports. The technology wasn’t available yet.
The more relevant question is how have all these sports fared since the 1800’s?
Michael C said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
This whole Sydney vs Melbourne thing -
you can’t ignore the colonial rivalry thing - - that ensured a tendancy by those in positions of power to back in the local ‘contestant’.
Sydney MUST have been envious of the wealth and growth of Melbourne and the colony of Victoria, from being founded in 1835 to 20 years later undergoing a massive gold rush and becoming the most populous colony/city in the broader context of the yet to be fully defined ‘Australia’.
This was a challenge to the status of Sydney - - prior to this, Sydney was the first city, the main colonial conduit back to mother England.
The simple fact that the Eureka uprising occurred in Victoria, at the time it did - - where so many Irish, chinese and others similarly lacking an ardent desire to ‘die for the Queen’ - - meant that Victoria was something to be protected against.
Melbourne was in fact the more cosmopolitan city at the time.
The fact that there occurred a neo-revolutionary event such as Eureka stockage - - when European rulers were nervously learning the lessons of the French revolution, when Britian was learning the lessons of the US war of independance - - and then the US themselves fell into civil war, we’d just had the Crimean War and there was still uncertainty that maybe even the Russians might sail into Port Phillip Bay - - - well, any wonder that Sydney might not put up the shutters to a code of football developed in Melbourne - - that the adoption of which would effectively severe a link to mother England.
I can fully understand the positions of both cities. Given that we didn’t even have a standard gauge rail link - - -for a long, long, long, long time thereafter.
On the Melbourne side - they had the wealth and the confidence and the window of opportunity where by it was absolutely correct to divise uniform rules in a city of about 80,000 - - the fact that over the next 20-30 years that population exploded - - and that during that time, no one code had taken hold in mother England - - it meant that Melbourne was perhaps the leading edge football culture in the entire world!!!! Certainly the most dynamic by virtue of the explosive growth.
When a city is built on that - - you don’t give it up readily. The culture and identity of the city.
I gather that AustFooty was going okay around Newcastle - - with miners moving on up to there, but, Sydney was eventually able to ‘force’ itself into the surrounding districts and effectively drive a wedge between Melb and Brisbane - - always wishful thinking that Melb might be able to out-influence Sydney into Brisbane.
However, the simple fact that 11% of male Aust Footy participants are in QLd shows that Aust Footy has a nice niche up there, and, relative to SA and WA, a 2nd team in QLD is certainly not a foolish pursuit.
Redb said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
Sheek,
No worries (sorry about the typos). No offense taken at any stage.
Who knows the future for Australian football in Sydney it will grow determined by market forces and some historical links. No one should expect people to drop one sport for another overnight, in that Melbourne and Sydney are very similar.
Redb
Redb said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
Sheek,
Another of element of sporting interest is the geographical influence footprint. From Melbourne the spread of Aussie Rules reached into southern NSW (4 -5 hour drive - dont know the equivalent on horse back) but no further as Sydney’s influence soon counter balanced it. Sydney’s range extended south to Vic border, west, but mostly north to Brisbane.
Redb
Lazza said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
That’s the curious thing about the sporting landscape in Australia, we’ve never had a proper Sydney-Melbourne rilvalry in sport? Perhaps with Sheffield Shield in the 1930’s but both cities went their own way and one of the ‘potentially’ biggest rivalrys in world sport just never hapenned.
I think we are poorer for it.
True Tah said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
Agree there Lazza, the most intense rivalry seems to be cricket, when the Victorians complain they don’t get enough of their players in the team.
What is the rivalry like between Sydney FC and the Melbourne Victory in the soccer?
Lazza said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
True Tah,
Due to our fractured sporting landscape, a newcomer like professionally run soccer is now our only truly national football code and the closest to a proper Sydney Melbourne rilvary. Certainly generates a lot of passion amongst soccer fans.
That’s why it will probably find it’s niche and prosper. Move to summer, keep away from the big boys in the winter market and offer something that we’ve never had before.
Dave said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
True Tah
Both MV and SFC have recorded their best ever Home and Away attendances whilst playing each other…50,000plus at TD and 34,000 at SFS last game in 2008. In the 3 TD games so far between the two crowd ave is over 40,000. The rivalry is developing very nicely and if it isn’t already will soon be the no 1 sporting rivalry between the 2 cities. They have yet to meet in the finals but when that happens it will be a true football ‘blockbuster’.
Millster said | May 30th 2008 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
Yeah I was going to add just the same in response to Lazza. I know the A-League is still young, but there CERTAINLY is an extra edge developing to fixtures between SFC and MV… even if the games between those 2 clubs have not always been the best for the neutrals…
If that’s being felt in 3 seasons, imagine the meaning of those fixtures in 30…
sheek said | May 30th 2008 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
Guys,
Paul has given us a lot of food for thought, & I for one probably don’t know the 1850-1900 period as wll as I would like, both historically & sporting-wise. Perhaps we all need to do some swap to better understand how each of the codes evolved.
The ‘convict creations’ site is extremely irreverent in its views, but in between all the cutting comments, are some extraordinary jewels of insight. I suggest you all go have a look-see.
Joe FC said | May 30th 2008 @ 5:49pm | Report comment
Lazza
The FA cup is the oldest football ( of any code ) competition in the world. The oldest sporting contest is the America’s cup first raced in 1851.
Joe O'Sullivan said | May 30th 2008 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
Lazza not sure I’d agree that we have any true “national” football code. If we use cricket as the measuring stick i.e. large & uniform support across the country then I don’t think any of the 4 “footy” codes qualify. Netball I believe has a greater claim to national participation status. If we consider New Zealand has rugby football, Brazil has association football & the US has american football then I don’t see Aust having an equivalent - at least not yet. No doubt this is a topic that will have many views.
Lazza said | May 30th 2008 @ 6:12pm | Report comment
Joe,
Read the Sweeney Report on the Web. Soccer definately has strong and uniform support across the country at 51% interest. That’s what makes it unique amongst the football codes. Others are bigger in their home states but fall off sharply when you cross the Murray.
bob said | May 30th 2008 @ 6:42pm | Report comment
It seems to me that those participation rates are very impressive… It can’t be seriously improved on I wouldn’t have thought… soccer will always grow because it is easy to play, I don’t mean in skill, but a kid on his own can entertain himself all day long kicking a ball against a wall, and honing passes and shots… a goalkeeper and practice by taking rebounds… two players can make endless hours of up-skilling and have great fun…as a rugby union man from a soccer family, I’ve always envied those aspects of soccer… scrummaging on your own just feels and looks all wrong!!!
Back to schools… In the UK we are seeing a massive rise in violent and anti-social behaviour in young males… in London this year 20 teenagers have been murdered by other teenagers… and it could be argued that this is partly due to schools now being almost entirely academic, with very little sport, and virtually no sport where young males can be aggressive and in physical contact, and nowhere within schools where they come into contact with older, more physical males to learn how to control their aggression… australia is accustomed to punching above its weight, but perhaps all that can only continue if schools and clubs ensure kids stay engaged in sport right through their teens? If you can engage the parents and siblings too, you have sport as culture…
But again, those participation rates are very impressive. Australia is recognised in the world as having that sporting culture, maybe now you have to fight to keep it… baning certain games, as Paul points out with “Tiggy” is the beginning of the end.
Redb said | May 30th 2008 @ 7:01pm | Report comment
The Melb v Sydney rivalry thing in the HAL may grow, but even after the 50,000 that went to the first big game at Telstra Dome, the followup game got about 30,000 (i know becuase i was there). True rivalries don’t need bandwagon support they exist on their own level regardless of ladder positions. so whilst Melbournians as a whole are preoccupied with their own club v club rivalries and Sydneysiders have RL SOO I doubt it will ever become huge. Soccer would need to dominate the hearts and minds above the respective traditional codes. Basketball has had Melb V Sydney for longer than the HAL.
At the end of the day Melb and Sydney don’t exactly love each other, but nothing can better shutting up a Collingwood or Carlton fan.
Likewise in the RL SOO NSW v QLd.
You can’t wish rivalries to occur they just evolve - so it could happen in the HAL, but the biggest rivalry?, i dont think so. Like the Melb Storm, Sydney Swans, Sydney Fc and Melb Victory are relatively new teams, it takes time for them to absorb into the sporting consciousness. I still rate Essendon as more important than any other sporting team. (pity at the moment) To win the premiership is heaven. If you want to win me you need to have red and black (pity the North Sydney bears became extinct)
True Tah, our standard response to NSW having more cricketers in the OZ team is that the AFL takes all the best athletes and were sticking with that :-). even in cricket, the national game we don’t really care if NSW beats Victoria or vice-versa, we care much more about beating England.
Redb
Midfielder said | May 30th 2008 @ 7:52pm | Report comment
Paul
Cong’s on a good thread, my two cents worth is it is impossible to compare Sydney & Melbourne from a sporting sense as there are two many variables and differences.
However there are three points made in Paul’s orginal thread and latter comments that sit as points that are different.
First the location and difficulity of getting around Sydney (everything is realative I know) compared to Melbourne would effect many things apart fom sporting events, but it has an impact.
Second, Spiro’s point about free trade, I have similar throughts but more akin to I think the people of Melbourne believed this is our game and it is to be protected and helped as much as possible, this especially so in the media.
Third, While it is hard to get to sporting grounds it is easy to get to a beaches, lakes, national parks, mountains and so there is a lot to do in winter when it is dry and warm in the sun so being outdoors is fun.
A couple more I have is and I think someone mentioned a similar thing, is that it would appear in Melbourne it is part of the culture to go to the AFL, re enforceing the this is our game and lets protect it.
I am not sure of Melbourne, but in Sydney there are heaps of players in most sports and playing sport and attending games is hard. Like I normally play on Saturday at 3:15 finish game about 17:00 have a beer and chat get home about 18:00.
Finally I am glad of the choice and watch most played all,
I played three park rule games of AFL against a rugby team at the start of the year to build some fittness for both teams, at half time in the first game we spilt the teams to be half rugby and half football team, rugby could not hold position. We just held the ball and scored. I mention this not to stir ………… but to ask a geniune question …………. if I was coach of an AFL team in a grand final with 10 mins to go and I was in front by 12 points, then why can’t you just hold the ball by kicking it to someone in space and win by just keeping the ball.
Redb said | May 30th 2008 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
Well some classic cliche views of Melbourne here. Straight up - how do you explain Perth they are just as passionate about AFL in winter and have equal weather, boating,etc as Sydney. Melbourne has some spectacular national parks, that’s good un. Please give me an example of the tens of thousands of Sydneysiders that must flock to the beaches at night when half of Sydney’s sporting events are on? Is that where the 16,000 odd who could have filled the seats at SOO were?
Helped by media - another fallacy. try this, Melb media pander to the Melb public - end of story.
It is most certainly part of the culture to go the AFL - that’s becuase it is an entertaining game.
The only comment which I agree with is the transport scenario between the two cities. Sydney’s great natural beauty is its downfall ,every time you build a road you have to build a bridge. The population difference and geographical footprint of the cities are within 10% of each other.
as for your last comment, if you take a mark or get a freekick you get 15 seconds (not sure of time exactly) before the umpire calls play on. Teams do play keepings off with about 1 minute to go, you can counter this with man on man tactics.
Redb
Redb said | May 30th 2008 @ 8:20pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
Tonnes of sport played by all levels in Melbourne on the weekends. Australian rules is the biggest participant sport (check Sweeney)
Joe O'Sullivan said | May 30th 2008 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
Lazza
may have to agree to disagree. Notwithstanding the Sweeney report when I consider uniformity in the context of the HAL we find 1 team in Syd pop 4 million, 1 team in CC pop .3 million & 1 team New/Hunter pop .4 million. I appreciate that such a comparison is far from the whole story but I wonder for that 51% interest how many make soccer their first choice code/sport. There can be no denying the rapid growth of the last few years & maybe in the not too distant future soccer can truly be described as Aust’s national football code as is cricket the summer sport but I just don’t think so yet.
Michael C said | May 30th 2008 @ 10:08pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
We have snow in Victoria too - actually, quite a bit very, very close to Melbourne. A bit closer than Perisher is to Sydney (Perisher is almost closer to Melbourne!)
Bob -
you shoulda seen me taking chunks out of footys by kicking and handballing them up against the old ‘brink wall’ at primary school - - the rebound is always hard to anticipate - - a bit like Bradman hitting the golf ball against the corregated tank.
And, growing up on a farm, I would spend all arvo out kicking the footy to myself, running 30 metres to mark it, practice sprinting in to pick up the ball on the run etc…….but - - like most really good things - - footy is best practiced with a friend!!!!!
Midfielder -
running down the clock is only as easy as the capacity to find teammates by themselves in space, or at least with space to lead into. I hate, hate, hate seeing North Melb try to run down the clock - - they don’t do it well. With no off-side, it is too easy to stuff it up and concede a goal. the best way to win a close game is to kick the next goal. 30 seconds - you can run down the clock - but, 2 mins out, that’s super dangerous, because, you too soon find yourself going back, and back and when you can’t go back any further you can’t just kick it to the goal keeper (granted, you can rush a behind, but, that may not be an option if you’re defending a 1 pt lead!!).
Lazza -
Sweeney report - remember - ONLY capital cities, and the ‘interest’ includes having watched on tele, read in paper, checked on internet or attended - the thing with soccer is that we know so much of that interest traditionally has been on checking the EPL results, watching the FA cup, etc etc - - the Sweeney report probably needs to specify Australia only or something like that.
Midfielder -
chicken and egg re the media and football - - I don’t see what the issue is - - football became the biggest thing in town very early, 130 odd years ago - - what was the media to do - - NOT report it? Ignore it? Tell everyone, hey, guess what they’re playing in London!!
Lazza -
yep, FA cup in London - - still, nothing of note happening in Sydney - - and, still, Sheffield and the northern leagues were only on the verge of effectively ‘joining’ the London leagues - - the final hybrid set of soccer rules was still morphing - - and Rugby just on the verge of being defined - - - and, so, in that 1870s period England was still exporting football confusion.
Melbourne by that point was approaching 20 years of refining a single set of rules.
Makes a difference - - it meant that people coming out from England weren’t really in a position to tell a Melbournian they were wrong.
Midfielder said | May 30th 2008 @ 11:36pm | Report comment
Redb
As you point out we Sydney siders do not go to the beach at night but maybe during the day we go out and to lazy to do two things, i.e. day trip and go to the footie at night.
Did not know Perth was in discussion, but agree AFL is huge there (never said it was otherwise).
Good to see sport is a big part of Melbourne weekend life as well.
LOL MC you said (Perisher is almost closer to Melbourne!) meaning it must be closer to Sydney (who cares I don’t go to the snow)
Redb, & MC
In as few words as possible (remember sever size limits) , can you explain AFL culture.? I have watched for years the crowds and given the population of Melbourne and the number of teams is ( I am guessing) the most supported crowd wise sport in the world.
So what creates the culture / mood of a city to be so involved in a sport, I can assure no sport in Sydney has ever had that level of support and emotional connection as the AFL has in Melbourne ……….. and to keep other’s happy you can expand to WA & SA if you like?? But I am more interested in Melbourne.
sheek said | May 30th 2008 @ 11:39pm | Report comment
10 years ago, it peeved me off you could travel around Australia, say a Sydneysider ending up in Broome. You enter a pub, either you followed rugby league or union & the patrons followed Aussie rules. Unless you turned the conversation to other things, the association didn’t last long.
These days, through the media, most of us know enough about each of the footy codes to hold a conversation. That’s got to be a positive.
Paul said | May 31st 2008 @ 12:51am | Report comment
Sheek,
We don’t need to go into the 1858 debate. I’m happy to let you have your opinion on 1858 being a Rugby game, for the sake of avoiding an argument on the topic. Suffice it to say, that I think it is probably safer to say that it was neither a Rugby game nor an Australian Rules Football game, but rather an experimental game of football with very few rules, as were many of the games played at public schools in England at the time.
I would just like to correct you on your misassumption:
“By the time Australian football tried to break into NSW & Qld, rugby was firmly established.”
Here is a list of the first Australian Rules Football club to appear in each colony around Australia.
VIC
1859, May 14th, Melbourne Football Club.
1859- Castlemaine, Geelong, Melbourne University
1860- Ballarat
1862- Williamstown
1864- South Yarra; 2nd Williamstown; Carlton
1868- Wharehouse men Football Club
1869- North Melbourne
1871- Ararat
1873- Albert Park; Essendon; St Kilda; Hawthorn;
1874 Rochester (Goulburn Valley); South Melbourne; Port Melbourne
1876- Inglewood; Heidelberg
1877- Beechworth; Footscray;
Victorian Football Association formed in 1877 with 14 teams.
1879- West Melbourne
1883- Fitzroy
1892- Collingwood
SA
1860- Adelaide Football Club
1862 Modb