By Slippery Jim
June 23rd 2008 @ 1:18pm
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Pragmatic Pim strikes again
Pim’s comments post-match are a bit rich in expressing disappointment with the 0-1 loss to China last night in saying; “We have 70,000 people in the stands and they want to see more chances, they want us to score goals.”
The trouble with having ‘mercenary’ foreign coaches for the national team is, despite their football expertise, they have no interest in the national interests of the game in a country not of their birth or cultural background.
It said a lot that China, in contrast, fielded their first team despite being already knocked out of the world cup, ostensibly to salvage “national pride” whereas at home, Pim had sent all of his B-Team ’stars’ on holiday and fielded a ‘C-Team’ for a kick and giggle in front of 70,000 fans in Sydney, including many names and faces unrecognizable to most of the spectators.
Clearly “national pride” for Australia was nowhere on his agenda, nor was furtherance of interest in football in our nation, and really, let’s be honest, it is Pim’s decision alone that forced 70,000 mercurial Sydney siders to watch the Socceroos lose a game they should have won at canter.
Pim has emerged as being a pragmatist of epic proportions, purely focussed on one goal and one goal only, that of qualification for the world cup, and gives no consideration, even as a secondary agenda, to what is in the best interests of football in Australia, ie fielding a recognizable squad of Socceroos, and beating what is only the 79th ranked team in the world, at home.
Walking to my car with the crowd outside ANZ stadium, I heard a father trying to explain to his 8 year old daughter, “don’t worry, the game doesn’t mean anything”.
The upset bewilderment of his 8 year old was hardly dispelled by an attempted explanation of the intricacies of the qualifying system for the fourth round of world cup qualification and the fact that we didn’t need to win this game competition-wise, and I suspect the same applied to most of the 70,000 spectators, most of whom are still to be really won over to the round ball code.
But at least in the case of one man standing the the Socceroos dugout, her father was right. The game didn’t mean anything, at least to Pim.
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(102)
sledgeross said | June 23rd 2008 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
That one of the reasons football has trouble capturing the imagination of the Aussie public. SInce when did an international match mean nothing? That was the excuse the Poms gave us when we beat them 3-1 at Upton Park.
Do you think someone who dons the Baggy Green, or a Kangaroo, or a Wallaby would use the excuse that “oh well, it didnt mean anything/ its just a friendly”.
We dont do friendlies in Australia. We win, or we lose.
Towser said | June 23rd 2008 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
Cant agree at all on this one.,
Surely qualifying for the World Cup is the essence ,the crux, the thrust ,whatever you wish to call it of being in the best interests of the game in Australia.
Why should Pim care about sensitivities . He’s not Australian he’s one of many football mercenaries that ply there trade around the globe. You’ve just seen a classic example of his mentor our saviour “Aussie ” Guus now “Russian” Guus previously “Sth Korea” Guus show the ultimate football mercenary act, by knocking his native country out of the Euros.
If as a football fan your worried about little Johnnie or Jane being confused dont. If we reach the World Cup finals,believe me all will be forgotten in the Australian publics mind. Why because having seen the media & public reaction on both occassions we have made the WC finals it is the only time that Football transcends all other activities(both sporting & otherwise) in the psyche of the Australian public. What happens in between in relation to raising the profile of football pales in comparison.
Reaching consecutive World Cups is paramount to keeping the momentum of football moving in the psyche of the Australian public. The fact that the finals are also on free to air SBS & fans will get up in droves to watch in the middle of the night, proves the point. How we got there I assure you will not be remembered by the majority of Australians including football fans who attended qualifiers.
Ara Kumar said | June 23rd 2008 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
There is lots of tough football yet to come and our “A” has been playing non-stop for a long time now including the World Cup and the Asian Cup! We are not a country overflowing with experienced players. Also if the senior players have an injury prior to an important game guess who will be playing boys! It is great that the ‘youngsters’ experienced a large crowd which will prepare them for the bigger games ahead. Pim has also looked after the Australian interest by exposing the Olyroos to what will be a tough campaign at the Olympics!
Most of the guys who are on the soccer wagon seem to understand very little about International soccer. It is not winning em all but winning the important ones that count. I would rather the team qualified for the 2010 World Cup rather then beat China in a ‘nothing’ game!
Slippery Jim said | June 23rd 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
Towser, I know for a fact there are people who attended last night who have said that after putting up with that crap, they will never attend another Socceroos match again. As a football fan, is that what you want to see when it could have been so different?
Ara Kumar, those of us on the ’soccer wagon’ realize that in this case we could have both won the ones that count (already done) as well as used the opportunity to further football in Australia, just like our qualification for the last world cup. The last thing we need is a deliberately constructed poor showing like this one to slow football’s momentum. If the olyroos want to train they should do it on a training ground, not in front of 70,000 fans who have put over $3,000,000 for tickets into the FFA’s coffers.
Millster said | June 23rd 2008 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim – perhaps though winning the game was not the particular facet of ‘furthering football in Australia’ (as you put it) that Pim wanted to bring to the fore. Indeed furthering football does not only mean winning games. It means blooding youngsters and match-hardening them in games – like this one – where the stage is big but the risks aren’t.
If even a couple of the young’uns on the park last night come through to be reliable, high-quality regular Socceroos then Australian football’s cause will have been advanced far more than it would from a meaningless win crafted from a bunch of already established – and dare I say it ageing – stars.
And in the meantime, if in the next 8 matches Pim is ever faced with a number of his big names being injured or absent, he’s now had a look at the understudies in a real game situation and has a far better idea of what needs to be worked on in training and tactics. That in itself is a very valuable insight, not to mention a wake-up call for the players.
So yes it was ugly and yes, at a simple level a win is always nice. But to say that the overall experience was a negative for football is going a long way too far.
Towser said | June 23rd 2008 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
Personally as a lifelong football fan I couldn’t care less. If they dont come back they dont understand football in the first place or dont care enough about wanting to understand it.
Football is sometimes fantastic sometimes crap. Like life you take the good with the bad. But if you are genuingly passionate you’ll keep coming back no matter what.
Ara Kumar is spot on.
Winning the important ones is what counts & then qualifying for the World cup is what matters. Watch the bandwagoners jump on board again if this happens. After the WC some will stay some wont. Of those that stay & have stayed since the 2006 WC they will have learned a little more about the nuances of world football & can make a measured decision about which matches they may or may not attend in future. Rather than (through lack of genuine football knowledge) make knee jerk statements and spit the dummy.
Dickroo of Blacktown said | June 23rd 2008 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
Doesn’t bother me at all. A good home show and happy 70,000 fans meant nothing if Socceroos didn’t qualify the 2010 WC.
Personally, i would like to rest Kewell as well with the condition of the ANZ farmland and the reputation of the Kongfu Panda football the chinese play. A broken legged Kewell would do nothing good to the Socceroos’ final WCQ in Sep.
“Too bad we qualified one game ealier and Sydney hosted a dead rubber, so what?” Pim thought. “A good rest for the Start XI Socceroos are far more important to entertain local fans in a dead rubber.”
I’m sure anyone bought the ticket yesterday will more than happy to know the Socceroos qualify for the South Africa. They’ll be back as long as Socceroos qualify.
Slippery Jim said | June 23rd 2008 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
Millster, you are absolutely right, and personally I was neither suprised at our loss or the squad, having been well prepped by Pim’s statements about sending the stars on holiday as soon as we qualified for the next round. However will the 50,000 or so theatre-goers who attended last night, whose understanding of the game is possibly at the level of an 8-year-old see it that way? Remember, those are the ones we desparately want to see won over to football.
Millster said | June 23rd 2008 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
I don’t think we’re disagreeing with each other Slippery Jim, but kinda like some of the other posters are saying, whatever the outcome of last nights match, it is qualifying for WC2010 that will get the 8 year old really into the game…
Mick of Newie said | June 23rd 2008 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Jim
I agree with you on this one. I was in the crowd last night and that was not a rusted on football crowd. They deserved better. Pim’s sole goal is qualification but the FFA but must have a broader view.
As a development exercise I doubt its benefit. Blooding one or two amongst established roos would have been good. Throwing 7 or 8 of them in was a benefit to nobody.
The bright spot for me was Spiranovic, it is the first itme I have seen him play and based on that I would have him clearly ahead of Beauchamp and assuming a good olympic campaign and regular first team football, I saw far more potential than North to be Niell’s partner in the next round of qualifiers.
Michael C said | June 23rd 2008 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim -
interesting to hear your view -
I’ve often wondered,
because – people have been burned previously with substandard teams – - but, normally, for example, the nameless Man Utd team – - but, invariably, the Socceroos put up the best they could – - i.e. the Local team treated the fans with respect even if the big name opposition may not have given what the people might have expected their ‘big dollar entry’ was deserving.
This appears the opposite – -it’s not often the ‘home’ team has effetively snubbed the spectators – - and there were so many spectators being snubbed!!!
But – Pim, is on his contract – - he doesn’t care one bit – what the long term marketing benefit is – - that’s not his job. And, so, fans of the actual ‘campaign’ will be happy.
- – - –
At least it wasn’t a draw – try explaining to young kids that there is no winner, no loser AND it didn’t matter anyway!!!!
that just sets kids down the path of being able to blurt out “We lost,..BUT….”
Towser said | June 23rd 2008 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
Remember this also.
80,000 fans saw the Beckham show. Most were theatregoers, Beckham oglers.
Now I was there as a football fan an admirer of Beckhams footballing skills & I saw by comparison with yesterdays game a 5-3 thriller. Entertaining by any sporting event measures.
As you know it made not one iota of difference to the attendance at following SFC matches.
Yet by your reckoning they should all have been frothing at the mouth to see Brendan Santalab at the next SFC match.
Becoming a football fan doesnt happen overnight. It takes years to build layers of knowledge about the game. If its pure entertainment your after World Championship Wrestling fits the bill.
Each World Cup appearance penetrates the Australian psyche as a whole, enough to wet the appetite of a few more members of the public.
Why do you think football is where it is today?
I’ll tell you the reason largely because we qualified for the 1974 World Cup which encouraged more Australians to take up the game resulting in more Senior & Junior clubs with better coaching. This resulted in Australia being able to eventually produce players in numbers ,capable of playing in the major European Leagues.
What drives Football & interest in football to the broader community in Australia(as it does in all sports) is success at International level the pinnacle of this being participation in the World Cup finals.
I know this as fact as people who never talk to me about football(and know I follow it) talk to me about matches which theyve either seen or are coming up when a World Cup is on regardless of whether Australia has been in it.
Midfielder said | June 23rd 2008 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
How long is a piece of string …………. I think there is a difference between resting a few players and putting the NO 3 or 4 side on. No doubt many of the first team could do with the rest ………… but this was not even the number two side.
The outside backs ……. well should never be picked agian ………… what about NC at least give him a chance to prove his worth one way or the other. In fact the starting line up had 3 backs 2 mids & goal keeper and add BD ae a striker still A-League then thats seven A-League players …………….. no balance IMO.
dasilva said | June 23rd 2008 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
People are saying choose one or the other. Qualify to world cup or please the fans. If divided by two paths why not choose both. there is no evidence to suggest that if we played more of our player against China we wouldn’t qualify to world cup. I understand why a emerton and culina should be rested as they have played in all matches but the players who did not play much in qualifying rounds such as kennedy, neill, bresciano, carle and mcdonald should not be given a choice to rest especially the players who didn’t play in the world cup.
Slippery Jim said | June 23rd 2008 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
Towser, unfortunately you are right about the effect of the Beckham game, although many of those attendees were also Central Coast, Jets fans and others. However, there is no doubt that exposure to football will grow grassroots interest in the game – it just may not happen overnight.
I think the fact that it has been 27 years since our last loss at home for a World Cup qualifier, dead rubber or no, shows that last nights game took us to another level of poor standards in recent years, when we should be moving forward, not backwards.
dasilva said | June 23rd 2008 @ 5:53pm | Report comment
The reason why people aren’t ogling to see Brendan Santalab at the SFC match is because they play rubbish football. Sydney low crowd has much to do with the way they play as well as results.
Becoming a football fan doesn’t come overnight but the seeds have to be planted somewhere and the last match was a wasted opportunities. The seeds were planted in me during the most darkest moment in Australian Football history (Iran match). Towser the way you are talking it seems like you’re implying that the only joy in football or any other sport is too see your team win. Winning helps popularity but it is not the be all and end all and there are other factor to consider. If Australia played defensive and dour football at the world cup and still reach the round of 16 I doubt we would have got 70000 fans at the stadium. If australia actually won the match against China I still believe a lot of fans would have still walk out pissed off as the performance was shocking (like their fans were for the Ghana match).
In any case I hate this debate about play entertaining football vs winning. Qualifying vs pleasing our fans in this match. We should be doing both and should not be satisfied until we achieved both. If we not setting these high standards then we are selling ourself short.
Joe FC said | June 23rd 2008 @ 8:05pm | Report comment
I’m with you on this one Towser. Slippery Jim you know more than most that football is a global game & its pinnacle is the WC. Qualifying is all that matters – fans in all the other nations hold the same perspective. Iraq’s failure highlights just how difficult a task still faces us. Provided we haven’t been eliminated ( God forbid ) there will be another 70K + crowd at the next Syd qualifying match & if FFA decide to use the MCG an even bigger one there. Substance ( qualifying ) over form ( pretty ).
Norm said | June 23rd 2008 @ 8:25pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim China played attractive football, won the match & are out of the world cup. Aust played dull football,lost the match & are still in the world cup. Which position do you think several hundred million Chinese supporters would prefer?
SammyC said | June 23rd 2008 @ 8:37pm | Report comment
No World Cup Qual – no chance of football to rise in this country.
Keeping Swans & Roosters supporters happy for thier one off football match doesn’t mean squat.
This isnt league/union/cricket where we have a sure spot in the tournament….
Slippery Jim said | June 23rd 2008 @ 8:38pm | Report comment
Joe FC, Norm, you’re right, if given the choice I would take dull football and qualification versus champagne football and elimination from the World Cup, but dasilva is spot on in saying, why not have both?
There was no good reason to field a “C” team and play rubbish football on Sunday, the only effect it had was a negative one – so a handful of overpaid stars get an extra week of holidays, and 70,000 Australian football fans as well as the much larger tv audience are effectively given the finger and have to put up with a farcical embarassing loss to China, a team over 40 places down the FIFA rankings from Australia.
Midfielder said | June 23rd 2008 @ 8:44pm | Report comment
Joe FC
Next match in Sydney will be a sell out as you suggested.
My point as I made before was not the resting of some players but putting the 3rd may 4th side out. The players in leagues other than England have a little bit extra and I am sure NC would have loved to have a run. Poor Jes if he has recovered NC still not in the 3 team.
The A-Leagues player in the main were poor …………. at least they know what level they have to lift too.
I spoke to a lot of new comers ……… not so sad about the side put out more by the quality of the play.
richardb43 said | June 23rd 2008 @ 8:46pm | Report comment
We were already qualified – yes. Let PIM do what he wants to find out about his players – YES.
But did he find out anything by putting such a disjointed team on the field, guys who hardly know each other at all ? Hardly.
He could have done his own cause better, and our WC chances better ,by playing a decent second string side with perhaps one or two novices tried out. But putting out a C side was not only an insult to the paying public, but a wasted oppourtunity for himself, and the many real contenders for socceroo status who would have dearly have loved to play, and to win.
Bad Move all round.
Salvation said | June 23rd 2008 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
Some interesting discussion. I too felt that Pim went to an extreme by selecting a fourth string side which lacked the maturity and leadership one should expect to see at a Socceroo game. The Olyroos play some really tough games soon, pre-Olympics, so why was this ALSO given to them?? And you can’t expect cohesion with such a mish-mash of players and ages who, as a team, have never worked together before this week!! Was this GA’s idea…
If it was Pim’s idea, I wonder what Frank Lowy thought of it.
The smart move (?) may have been to select a B team…but perhaps all the fringe Socceroos were out of fitness by now…and lacked game sharpness. That may be poor player management.
I feel for the theatre-goers… and the hard line opinions from some others on this blog, if they are really honest with themselves, aren’t really thinking with their Football Family Hearts.
Lets remember we could do with the NRL/AFL becoming more open to sharing facilities, more likely if the goodwill was extended to these theatre goers and they got some decent football to watch (and yes, a win) and identified with the “Stars” in the process. Think what a warm buzz could have been “harvested” in this game!! Especially with us mounting a WC bid in 2018. Another example of conservatively clinical business decisions obscuring the more intangible X factors.
The bottom line, for me, is that sacrificing the game for the greater good of the next round is taking alot of things for granted;
let alone that we get through. Lets not get too cocky, or detached, from this Football Story in Australia. If the FFA get overly obsessed with results, they will forget about the journey.
Dave said | June 23rd 2008 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
Well Pim has certainly answered some questions with the performance displayed by many in the team. Unfortunately there were 70,000 at the ground plus 300,000 or more watching on TV in Oz. The FFA need to take steps to ensure supporters who outlaid good money, in the future, are given some recompense such as 1/2 price tickets to the next friendly or HAL tickets. This is called rewarding the loyal fans and whilst may cost a few dollars initially should reap rewards later.
Having said that you are absolutely right Norm and Oz are through to the final stage.
It is interesting to note the Socceroos last 2 matches and 2 of the last 3 will be at home in the next phase!!! Would be great to think it was all wrapped up with one home game to go again. There would still be a huge crowd to congratulate the boys l’m sure, if that was the case.
Should also be noted that only once in the 6 games did Pim almost have the full team available and that was the 1st game in Melbourne (no Kewell).
Now lets see are there any Euro teams we could call pragmatic in their approach and outlook… Germany! Now if only we could have some of their success! Flair teams…Portugal, Holland, Croatia…look good but…
Dave said | June 23rd 2008 @ 9:04pm | Report comment
Midfielder
As l understand it Carle chose not to play.
Dave said | June 23rd 2008 @ 9:20pm | Report comment
What needs to be understood by those non football devotees is that the Europeans have been training since July 2007 (pre season) and those in the Socceroos played in the Asian Cup. Therefore their time off amounted to several weeks, if that. It is very important to give the body a complete rest during the off season to prevent possible chronic injuries etc. The players are fully entitled to a reasonable break after Oz qualified.
As l understand it players were given the option to play v China. Those that chose not to have commenced their break and good luck to them. I’m not sure what other players were available to Pim for selection in this case? Many HAL players are just about to commence or have just commenced pre season. The Olyroos are in training and many were used. The Euro based players are taking an early, but well earned break. It would appear Pim had little choice in the selection for this game.
MrB said | June 23rd 2008 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
Pim Verbeek has come out and said that the Socceroos let down 70 000 fans at ANZ Stadium. Mate, It helps if you don’t field the Australia C team.
Sure it meant nothing as far as qualifiers go but Australia hadn’t lost a home world cup qualifying match in 27 years, a record I would have preffered to stay in tact.
Norm said | June 23rd 2008 @ 10:22pm | Report comment
MrB
nothing lasts forever.
Joe FC said | June 23rd 2008 @ 10:34pm | Report comment
Midfielder Dave & others
According to Craig Foster on yesterday’s TWG the decision to make NC unavailable was his.
jimbo said | June 23rd 2008 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Pimbo’s the one who should’ve gone on holidays and Gary Van Egg or Rob Baan should’ve picked the team and managed the game.
If it means that little to Pimbo and there was nothing riding on the game, why bother wasting his time.
I think Pimbo deliberately picked the C grade team to prove once and for all that A-League players are crap.
Best thing about the game – Zadkovic doesn’t play for Sydney FC any more.
Poor old Nicky Carle was so exhausted sitting on the bench watching the Footballroos play lately, that he desparately needed a holiday and gave up the chance to play for Pimbo.
I wonder if Pimbo and Nicko are on speaking terms at the moment.
Midfielder said | June 23rd 2008 @ 11:58pm | Report comment
Jimbo
Just on Zadkovic …. and sorry other bloggers as it takes a lot for me to say a player wearing an Australian shirt is crap.
But F me, ………….. mate …………… IMO should never be picked agian …………….. Topper S on the right was almost as bad had a shocker. BUT Zadkovic ………. well ………..Adam Griffifs ….Durante ……….. all better players me thinks maybe GA still having a little to much influence.
dasilva said | June 24th 2008 @ 12:09am | Report comment
I think this disjointed side that barely knew each other is overstated. Most of the side have been playing together for a very long time in the intense olyroos campaigne. Zadkovich, topor-stanley, djite, holland, kilkenny, williams and troisi have all played together often and really you should see some cohesion. Yes there were some european players that they haven’t played with but you expect more from the olyroos.
About zadkovich – he played poorly but is there any other full back who is under 23. Is he the best young full back we got? I
dasilva said | June 24th 2008 @ 12:17am | Report comment
About the european players needed a well earn break. There are some players who didn’t play in the world cup, confederation cup or asian cup to a great degree (eg. start in most matches) who probably didn’t need a break such as scott mcdonald, josh kennedy , brett holman, coyne and nick carle. Yes they have long seasons but so do all the players in euro 2008 and the asia cup last year.
Midfielder said | June 24th 2008 @ 1:07am | Report comment
Dasilva
Troisi played well and after Harry was my best Aussie on park, also most of the Olyroo team will also come from Europe so this was almost the 4th side 7 A-League Olyroos …….. even then Milligan let out, Adam Griffif as well so it was a very weak side put out Durant , Vargas come on these guys are all better than those choosen.
sledgeross said | June 24th 2008 @ 8:43am | Report comment
I ask again, how in the hell did Kilkenny not start? Surely a bloke who has played in the EPL and is a starting player in a Championship calibre side should be able to get a run ahead of Jedinak, Holland etc.
Mick of Newie said | June 24th 2008 @ 8:52am | Report comment
sledgeross, Leeds are not a Championship calibre side otherwise they would be in the championship. Kilkenny is clearly not an EPL player otherwise he would still be there. Kilkenny and Jedinak are journeymen who look ordinary. At least Holland, Troisi, Williams, Dijite and Spiranivoc arw young enough to be on an upward trajectory. I had no problem with them getting a go, my problem was that it was unfair to throw them all in at the same time.
As for Zadcovic and Topor Stanley, they are both very ordinary but we have absolutely no fullbacks. Look at the established roos, Chipperfield, Emerton, Wilkshire and Carney are all converted midfielders.
Towser said | June 24th 2008 @ 9:46am | Report comment
For those calling for entertainment plus success as a package for International football in Australia(A-League as I’ve stated before a different kettle of fish) I suggest a reality check on where were at. Dont disagree that this is the “ideal” platform to build the game . However we are not yet technically advanced enough to do this ,particularly at International level. So we have to acheive what we can with what we are at this stage as a football nation. Any other perceptions are fanciful. What we can acheive at this stage is success at reaching the one thing that counts In reaching the psyche of Australians regarding Football, the World Cup. Why do people think that Rob Baan has been brought in as a technical director? Quite simple and an issue raised many times by Johnny Warren & others ,that technically the game in Australia is deficient in this aspect. You can only play the one touch fast attacking passing football as per Argentina etc if your technique is of the highest calibre. Ours is not, but having seen some of the youngsters coming through(early teens & younger) the technique is coming through in them.
One thing I will concede on this subject & a point raised by Alex Tobin after the match, is that if Pim made a mistake it was to have only one truly experienced International player on the park Harry Kewell amidst a team of youngsters with about 10 caps between them. A bit like the captain of a ship ,whose crew consisted of a bunch of cabin boys.
sledgeross said | June 24th 2008 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Mick,
Leeds are a Championship calibre side as they amassed the 2nd best record in League One last season, and were outplayed in one game by another Championship bound team. They would be there if it wasnt for the jealousy of other clubs.
I never said Kilkenny was an EPL player, only that he has played in the EPL for Birmingham, so he at least has that experience. If you think a 22 year old who has played for 3 clubs (one on loan) and had 30 odd games in the EPL is a journeyman and not as good as someone who plays in the A League, then Im glad you aint picking our teams then mate! Hang on, maybe judging from Sundays game you are
Slippery Jim said | June 24th 2008 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Towser, in the context of this specific match, champagne football was not called for, just a competent side with a good chance of beating China’s best team, and including the best available players. Is that too much to ask? It’s like hanging out to go see your favourite band only to find when you get there that they have all jetted off to go skiing in the swiss alps and left their roadies to play their greatest hits in front of a sell-out hometown crowd…Pim basically showed he didn’t give a crap about trying to win this game, and then had the gall to whinge in hindsight about the crowd wanting to see more goals.
Salvation said | June 24th 2008 @ 10:56am | Report comment
Mr B, i think you have been mislead about a headline. Damn editors putting words in people’s mouths!!! I am not certain if Pim ever said that the Socceroos let 70k fans down…
dasilva said | June 24th 2008 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
Well this just reminds me of Frank farina who said after a poor performance that this is all that Australia is capable of and you can’t expect team to play better football
I think Towser you really underestimate at least the 1st XI. Look I don’t expect Australia to play like Brazil, Holland, Argentina or even Russia but I like to see some attacking intent from the team. THe team bought out by Pim in the away leg to China and Iraq and the home leg vs China was overly conservative when in all respect the opposition wasn’t that great (especially the Chinese who loss to every other side at home). When we were a bit more adventurous against Qatar we ended up dominating the game and winning. My view of playing entertaining football is not just due to aesthetic, i actually think Australia is more likely to win the game if we attack because thats what suits the mentality of Australian players. Its not that I’m expecting Australia do play what they are not capable of, its just that i’m expecting the team to display the same mentality as they already done in the past.
in any ase I’m very worry
Mick of Newie said | June 24th 2008 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
sledgeross, you know why Leeds got the 15 point penalty, because after they were relegated the year before they went into administration. In effect walking away from their legal obligations. Yes Leeds should be better than League 1. And given the start of the season they had they should have been promoted directly. I am sure it is not Kilkenny’s fault the season went pear shaped in the second half when he joined.
Re Kilkenny I wish him well but I am not convinced by his record (18 EPL appearances with 6 starts) or the admittedly limited amount I have seen him play.
Can we agree that outside of North, Spiranovic, Kewell, Valeri and Djite, if anyone who took the field on Sunday appears again in this qualifiying campaign we are in trouble.
Ara said | June 24th 2008 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
Pim has done well as he settles into his role. Remember he was not the number 1 choice for coach and was selected very late with little time to prepare for a World Cup campaign. His understanding of Asia has been of great benefit for us and he understands that we have just started the qualification phase with some of the toughest games ahead. The vast majority of the 70,000 Socceroo supporters on Sunday (of which I was one) understood that this was a celebration of us succceeding in the first phase and there is a long way to go. Only the uninitiated would have been dissapointed and they would be even more dissapointed and willing to kick soccer if we do not qualify for 2010! I was an Overseas Student studying in OZ when I spent all my pocket money to watch the Socceroos almost qualifying and then blowing it against Iran. I can still remember my tears and those of others beside me on that day! At that time only hardcore soccer supporters felt the pain. We went through it over and over again like groundhog day; Argentina, Uruguay until that an unforgetful night in 2007! I have always believed one day this will be the major sport in my adopted country and the dream is coming true!
Just us discussing soccer in this blog is truly amazing and shows how much we have come forward! No other sport can boast that they can get 70,000 to watch a meaningless game in Australia and especially in the very competitive Sydney market! So please stop criticising and join the celebration in the success of Australian Soccer and I am sure we will have 80,000 supporters for the critical games ahead!
Joe FC said | June 24th 2008 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
well said Ara.
Towser said | June 24th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Da Silva, Slippery Jim
What you have to consider is that this is the first time that Australia has had to qualify for the World Cup via the Asian qualifying route.
Its a whole new experience for us to attempt to qualify in a well defined format that pits us against decent quality teams ,home & away on a consistent basis.
When we have our first eleven together under a master like Hiddink for 6 weeks or so in camp ,as per the last World Cup then Australia can give a good show against any team on the planet with that first eleven.
However in the series of qualifiers just gone Pim had little time to work with the players. I still maintain that technically we are no better than Iraq. Having watched the Australia v Iraq game at Suncorp from the stands I would say in relation to first touch we are slightly behind, apart from Harry & one or 2 others.
Therefore we have to rely on our fighting spirit , will to win, fitness and hopefully superior tactical organisation(Hiddink showed we are well capable in this respect) in the next round of qualifuiers because we are not better than them technically. Technique & the speed of execution of that technique is what seperates the top teams in the world from the rest.
You can counteract it to some degree by the attributes I quoted above but in the end superior technique wins out.
So in relation to “the team adopting the same mentality as theyve already done in the past” that is attack because it suits the Australian mentality. Maybe,but against teams that are your technical & tactical equal over a series of home& away tight qualifying rounds,well to be honest if Pim threw caution to the wind in any of the upcoming matches I would consider him negligent in his coaching approach.
Pim was more adventurous against Qatar no doubt,less adventourous against Iraq & China. He made the judgement calls in all the qualifiers & I guarantee that as far as football in Asia goes he has far more knowledge than anybody posting on the Roar Regardless of the coach we are making judgements on the first coach in Australian football history to have been in the position where the last match was a dead rubber in an Asian qualifying group.
Do you know that Hiddink Troussier or whoever would have not done the same thing . That is seize the oppurtunity to blood new players to test their mettle.
Slippery Jim said | June 24th 2008 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
I still see it as an opportunity lost to promote football positively in Australia, and quite frankly training and blooding Olyroos players is Arnold’s responsibility not Pim’s.
As for Pim being “the first coach Australian football history to have been in the position where the last match was a dead rubber in an Asian qualifying group” that is a bit bloody obvious considering it is our first Asian qualification campaign! And if he knows Asia so well, why did we almost lose at home by two goals to the worst Asian team in our group?
Towser said | June 24th 2008 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
We topped the group.
You have no case against Pim at this point.
We move on to the next stage.
Midfielder said | June 24th 2008 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Mick
Djite …….. leff me cold ………. the touch of an elphant and speed of a wombat IMO ……… shows me his junior coaches let him down a bit maybe …….. but he did some junior training with the Northern Spirit.
For me as with you North, Spiranovic, Kewell, Valeri played well, ………. Holland was poorly supported behind and IMO had a fair game or at least enough to ask him back. David Williams we he came on showed he was prepared to run at people and was was not suited to right mid, but to me showed enough to ask him back as well.
Towser said | June 24th 2008 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
Midfielder
Regarding Djite.Agree entirely. Unless this guys first touch improves(And usually thats developed at an earlier age) I cant see him making it in the Turkish league let alone a first choice Socceroo. Whoever said he could replace Viduka as a player who holds up the ball for others to feed off,well I cant believe anybody ever said it. Maybe it was a dream. The others you mentioned did well. Also in my opinion ,Troisi . If this guy can get a club in Europe and play regularly hes a definite starter as a future first team Socceroo.
Mick of Newie said | June 24th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Midfielder, I am not as excited about Djite as Fink but I would like to see him play on a decent pitch with good players around him. I am not prepared to write him off. The positive comments on Williams have surprised me, I saw him as no better than Troisi or Holland. I would like to see all of them given a chance at some stage down the track. But realistically they are all behind about 6 or 7 attacking midfielders.
Slippery Jim said | June 24th 2008 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
I know we qualified for the next round Towser, level with Qatar on 10 points, but all of the other teams to top their group (in fact all of the other teams that go to the next round bar the UAE and Qatar) took more points than us, and anyone who analysed our games can see clearly that this is down purely to the cautious, defence-minded teams fielded by Pim Verbeek. In Sydney Pim took a stance that alienated many football fans and caused us to lose for the first time in 27 years at home in a WC qualifier. There is no point feeling relief yet as we have not yet qualified for the World Cup, and if our performances do not impove that is still very much in doubt.
sledgeross said | June 24th 2008 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Mick, I would suggest you read up a bit more as its not as simple as that mate.
When it became apparent towards the end of the 06/07 season that Leeds would be relegated, they went into administration and were deducted 10 points which is the usual penalty. Other clubs didnt like this loophole, so the FA contrived the situation of exiting administration via a CVA. For Leeds to do this, it meant that it would be violating edicts from HMR (Pommy tax office). Ken Bates actually offered more pence per credit pound than any other consortia. So Leeds are stuck between a rock and a hard place, who do they piss off more? The league (ie other clubs) votes to give them a 15 point penalty in addition to the mandatory 10 which was taken off the prior season. In addition, the FA makes Leeds sign a document under duress stating they will not seek legal remedy with regards the -15. If they didnt sign it, they wouldnt get their football lisence and thus wouldnt be able to compete. Leeds were not even allowed to sign players until the week before the season started. They did what they had to.
Regards Killa (yes. I admit I am biased!). The bloke was a trainee at Arsenal. He HAS played in the EPL. He playes for one of the biggest clubs in the UK in front of home crowds that rival Premier League teams. Can any other of the Olyroo’s say that? Can many of the Socceroo’s say that? Seriously mate, if you had seen as much of him as I have, Im sure you would change your tune, and see he does have some potential.
OK, Sledgie signing off with his biased, Pro-Leeds diatribe!
Towser said | June 24th 2008 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
Having followed the Socceroos for the 40 years I’ve lived in Australia, I never feel relief believe me.
My only fortunate saving grace is that I’m a born & bred Sheffield Wednesday fan(has been likened to a tiny hammer hitting you on the head day & night-but occassionally it gets worse and an event like the 1965 Bribes scandal or the Hillsborough disaster turns the little hammer into a fully blown fairground mallet) so that tends to shield you from many woes that may befall the Socceroos.
Slippery Jim said | June 24th 2008 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
Heh heh! Indeed, to a lesser extent, being a Sydney FC fan has been a long cold lonely ride the last season or two as well, so I am well used to shambolic losses at home! What frustrates me is when no effort is made to win the game…
sledgeross said | June 24th 2008 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
No effort. Or merely ineptitude against a more experienced and cohesive unit?
Slippery Jim said | June 24th 2008 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Ineptitude from most of the players (with a few exceptions), but no effort from the coaching staff to try and put out a team who could win the game against China’s best players.
Mick of Newie said | June 24th 2008 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
sledgeross, I followed Leeds progress throughout the season and wanted them to go up. They are clearly wasted in league 1. However at half way it was within their control even with the 15 point penalty. Wise then left and the wheels fell off.
I hope you are right about Kilkenny, their is precious little quality in that Olyroos team. There is however no guarantee he will go, as Arnold may try and bring in one or all of Valeri, Holman and Culina which puts Kilkenny in a scrap with Troisi, Holland, Musiliak, Williams, Burns and others for a spot.
dasilva said | June 24th 2008 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
My feelings to Pim are a bit mix. Some people unfairly criticise him to being not better than Arnold or Farina which is not true. Our defence is more organise under Pim than under any previous Australian born coaches. I’m not so enamoured about his pragmatic approach to coaching and I was worried about this ever since we I found out he was coach of the soccerroos due to the dour performances of Korea. Hey he knows more about football than me but I’ll give me 2 cents worth anyway.
In the two away games against China and Iraq we played defensive and got 1 point out of that and only a penalty away from losing the China match. The fact is we got lucky. Now if Pim got two draws or pick off a win from the match I guess you can argue that his pragmatic approach may not be pretty but effective but the results doesn’t justify his tactic or approach. He should have made an attacking substitution in the second half against China when they are on the back foot and his defensive approach against Iraq backfired and his response to the goal wasn’t very good. I don’t expect Australia to go gun blazing but i expect a little bit more intent. His decision not to play bresciano when Harry Kewell was isolated up front when we were screaming for someone to link up with him especialkly when we were a goal behind. Bresciano was our best attacking player against China and one of the better players against Qatar and it was inexplicable that he wasn’t given a go against Iraq. It was the defensive approach that cost us both of those games. the last thing thats worries me is his comments that carle “dribbles” to much. Well I can accept Carle not being given a go in the national team and I would have been happier if he just said he wasn’t good enough but to say he dribbles too much make me question what type of philosophy he has in football and whether it really consistant with where Australia wants to be in the future.
Salvation said | June 24th 2008 @ 8:46pm | Report comment
So dasilva, does that imply that Pim is a bit inconsistent? What exactly is the criticism? Erratic? Insecure? Confused?
Midfielder said | June 24th 2008 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
Dasilva
Pim IMO has to prepare Australia with the aim of qualification, ………. it has been said by a lot of people I respect it will take 3 world cups to have football fully accepted and in the media most want it to be in.
Therefore qualifing for the WC which includes having players / coaches on side is important.
To qualify and perform at a reasonable level in the WC when we come up against better teams will require shillsto hold the ball, push up field, close down defensieve holes, even realise the hole has occured. This takes a system a style and for better or worst its what the players will need to use.
My problem as I stated before that we played the 4th team …………. not the style or that it was not the 1st team ………… but in the main the fourth.
Can hardley wait to friday for the draw.
BTW all into todays terror- graph, they had FFA were trying to sign Germany for an August friendly in London, close not not signed off.
dasilva said | June 24th 2008 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
Maybe I didn’t explain myself clearly. I just think he is a pragmatic cautious coach. It shows with the performance of Korea at Asia Cup and it shows with the performance in the two away matches.
I respect his ability to organise the defence and I understand his rationale in playing defensively (although not playing bresciano at least as a substitute is inexplicable) I just don’t like it and it has actually cost as two matches so far. I was responding to Towser comment who believe we needed to play defensively to get a result but if you look at the results in the game we play conservatively we got one point out of it and were lucky to get that 1 point. Is that conservative approach really getting results for the national team?
dasilva said | June 24th 2008 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
Midfielder – yeah i hear your point. I always said that the first team should be rested but the players who were not involve in the world cup and asia cup should have played instead of the 4th team. I always said that results are important and I don’t deny that qualifying to the next 3 world cups are absolutely essential for the growth and development but I just give it equal weighting to the way we play as that is important in winning permanent fans (not just people who jump on bandwagons of successfull team)
The whole style thing was probably a divergent debate with Towser starting from an previous post and maybe was off topic (but the headline did say Pragmatic Pim).
Dave said | June 24th 2008 @ 10:01pm | Report comment
Midfielder
Socceroos v Germany at Emirates stadium…now that would be something!! Also noted Nick Carle could be on his way to Crystal Palace for more than the 500,000 pounds Bristol City paid for him?
jimbo said | June 24th 2008 @ 10:36pm | Report comment
Ara,
brilliant that 70K people turned up to watch the Footballroos and an amazing turnaround from the days of the Oceania qualifiers when 2K turned up to watch.
The extra home games are also turning into a big money spinner for the FFA.
It will help make a modest profit this year after an $11M loss last year, even though we made it to Germany 06.
The China experience could’ve been done differently and more entertainment and a better advert for the game here.
Agree with Alex Tobin’s comment that too many inexperienced players were thrown in the deep end just to give the Olyroos some match practice. Should mix them up a bit more to give them more support and confidence.
I’m sure players like Djite and Triosi would’ve looked much better playing alongside experienced players like MacDonald, Kennedy, Emmerton, Viduka or Cahill or whoever.
Would’ve been good to give Kilkenny a run too, couldn’t have done himself too much harm on the performance of some of the others.
Midfielder said | June 24th 2008 @ 10:39pm | Report comment
Dave
Think its at leeds home ground Eland Road, anyway agree should be a good game.
Dasilva
Agree with you on the the style we have played of late ………. not that inspiring
Slippery Jim said | June 24th 2008 @ 10:57pm | Report comment
Interesting…earlier today Nick Carle’s entry in Wikipedia stated: “On 23rd June 2008 Carle showed a complete lack of ambition when he transferred to Football League Championship side Crystal Palace for an undisclosed fee rumoured to be in the region of £650,000.”
however this has now been removed ane replaced with;
“On 23rd June 2008 Carle didn’t transfer to Football League Championship side Crystal Palace for an undisclosed fee because he didn’t want to spend 90 minutes every saturday watching the ball fly 20ft over his head.”
neither comment had/has external references…
that’s the transfer season for you!
Midfielder said | June 24th 2008 @ 10:57pm | Report comment
Dave
70, 000 ………. G8888888888
The Third Man said | June 25th 2008 @ 12:56am | Report comment
Slippery Jim, live in the Manly area? hear what you’re saying,One hundred percent correct,Hiddink mercenary coach ? correct,Pim will seperate the mate’s rate’s from the chaff.
Slippery Jim said | June 25th 2008 @ 10:59am | Report comment
The Third Man, I have no problem with “mercenary” coaches (or players, in clubs) in fact I feel they can bring a lot to our game in Australia, and improve the way we play, however just as a mercenary has no interest in the cause or the people he fights for, merely the money, so it is with mercenary coaches. Unless specifically instructed to do so, they tend to focus solely on progressing in the competition they have been hired for on a short term basis, but ignore other important broader aspects of the role of national coach, such as growth of football culture in Australia.
Towser said | June 25th 2008 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Slippery Jim
How do you develop a football culture in Australia?. In my case I can only observe as I already have an inbred football culture from where I grew up. Let me just quote Johnny Warren(from SWP) a man with a deep understanding of what he thought was required for Australia to develop a football culture.
1 Appoint a Technical Director-Done
2 Improve the National League-Done
3 Entry into Asia-Done
4 Development of an Australian Football culture. (This he emphasises will be as a direct result of the previous 3 occurrences)-Work in progress.
Personally I would add :-
5 Patience on behalf of the Australian Football public.
Joe FC said | June 25th 2008 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
“but ignore other important broader aspects of the role of national coach, such as growth of football culture in Australia.”
but is that the role of the national coach? Pim’s brief is to get us to SA, that’s what he is getting paid to do. I think Towser is spot on, there is a range of other factors contributing to a “football culture”. Qualifying for the WC will boost the culture.
Slippery Jim said | June 25th 2008 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
Joe FC, there is no doubt that qualification is the main priority, and if that is what is accomplished by Pim, and that alone, then yes, we can all be satisfied. However, a national coach SHOULD be aware of the legacy he leaves for the nation, and in the case of Australia, which is still in the 3rd world in a football sense, the development of the game and culture SHOULD also be part of his role.
Towser, it is dangerous to tick all of those boxes and sit back smugly and say “done”. Our job is far, far from done and will not be done for some time. It has come a little way along the path we want to travel down, but still has a long way to go. We are at a delicate stage in which we need to be careful not to suffer setbacks such as the one experienced by the poor showing against China at home in front of 70,000 Australian fans. This was a great opportunity thrown away to promote football in Australia and Pim blew it through his squad selection and tactics, which exposed his lack of understanding or concern for anything outside the World Cup/Olympics campaign, and alienated large sections of the crowd who will not be coming back.
Can you honestly state that any of this is a good thing?
Joe FC said | June 25th 2008 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
I’m sure Pim is aware of what legacy he will leave for Aust football – which is why he is determinded to get to SA. In any event Slippery Jim you will already know that life & football are full of setbacks, failure & success go hand in hand. I do not consider Sunday night a setback & nor do I think Pim blew it. But even if it was & he did Aust football will still move forward. You are right when you say the job is not done – & indeed the “job” will never be done in the sense that there is always room for improvement & we can always do better. Don’t dsepair Slippery Jim, the rise of Aust football will continue.
Slippery Jim said | June 25th 2008 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
Joe FC, if even one fan has decided to not attend Socceroos matches because of this game, it was a setback, and I know several people who have said that that is how they feel.
As a coach, Pim “meets expectations” but has not “exceeded expectations”. I merely suggest that we should have a far higher standard if we want our game to improve.
Towser said | June 25th 2008 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Joe FC
You took the words out of my mouth.
All I can add to that is that compared with the setbacks in the years that I’ve followed Football in Australia pre-Lowy Sunday night was Football nirvana.
Slippery Jim said | June 25th 2008 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
True – Towser, the fact that we got 70,000 for a dead rubber with third rate players is definately an indication of just how far we have come, and is cause for celebration.
I just feel a little like a person who has recommends a band to his friends, and they all decide to go see them play live on a Saturday night and they turn out to play absolute rubbish and your music credibility is gone forever!
Stama said | June 25th 2008 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Wrong wrong wrong. Those 70 0000 will turn up again and some. The Socceroos are Australia’s only truly national team. If the young players didn’t play and the first team played and say Emerton or Culina or Scott McDonald played and got injured then what would have been the point since we had already qualified. Giving the young players a run is what’s all about when you are developing young players. I think the pitch was a reason why some of the younger boys looked rusty. Giving the players a rest after some of them have had no break for 4 years is the smart thing to do and they will feel better for it when we play again in September. The Australian public know where the big party is and that is the World Cup and like Pim Verbeek said qualifying for it is the most important thing.
Johnny Warren used to say before he passed away that in the future Australia will play China in a world cup qualifier and there will be 80 0000 fans there.These are gravy times for football supporters in Australia and win lose or draw a true fan will turn up and support his team. All the clowns that are crying because the didn’t see Lucas Neil or whoever will forget everything when Australia qualifies.
Redb said | June 25th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
IMO non tradional fans put off by the poor display will wait a little longer before buying tickets next time to see if its going to be the A team playing and its a live qualifier. Surely the bulk of the 70,000 bought tickets on the expectation it would be the best Socceroos on display and possibly a ‘live’ qualifier.
I seriously doubt it will dent the momentum of the Socceroos if they’re playing for WC qualification though, the crowds will still be big for qualifiers. The FFA maybe needs to better educate and manage expectations though – I doubt they will get 70,000 for a dead rubber and C grade players again though – or at least whilst memories are fresh.
Message for the FFA is the Australian public won’t keep turning up for low standard games, but if a ‘real’ game they will be their in droves. The FFA’s honeymoon with fans is over and they like the AFL, NRL and ARU are subject to criticism if they get it wrong.
Redb
dasilva said | June 25th 2008 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
My opinion of Pim is that his got a C+ rating. He’s done the bare minimum of what is necessary which is to get as in the next round and therefore pass. His minimum requirement of job is to qualify to the world cup and on the way there but to really be a great coach you have to do more than that such as the performances, tactics, handling of media, endear yourself to the fans, style we play and continuing the growth of football culture in Australia. I don’t think he did other things too well as he could have and hopefully he’ll improve (exception of handling of media which he does well)
Slippery Jim said | June 25th 2008 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
dasilva, he also dresses well, which is also an important qualification if Jose Mourinho is any sort of benchmark!
Towser said | June 25th 2008 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
Therefore Slippery Jim, continuing this logic, until Pim has his own puppet show like Jose , he hasn’t made it as a coach.
Slippery Jim said | June 25th 2008 @ 4:44pm | Report comment
Absolutely essential is having a puppet show on Setanta…having a trophy wife and driving a ferrari also helps…
Dave said | June 25th 2008 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Redb
Socceroos and football fans unfortunately will continue to turn up for the C and D grade games as it is part of our pain and suffering so we can really appreciate the good games. I should know have been to plenty over the years including Man U B vs Socceroos C at MCG in front of 70,000 in 2000, Melb Vic v Juventus D 43,000 last month, Soccerros B v Brazil Olympic team?? in early 2000s at the MCG in front of 80,000 etc etc. The good thing now is there will be a lot less of these games as real matches (qualifiers) have to be won. Another 4 home WC games in the next 14 months as well as Asian Cup.
Towser Slippery Jim dasilva
As has already been pointed out this is the first time through an Asian qualifying campaign. There needs to be some education and understanding of this new process. Now the last game may not be the do or die match as it always has been in the past. Wouldn’t it be great if qualification is completed before our last home game in the next stage (the last 2 games are in Oz for this campaign). l would certainly pay to still se that last game and would hope if that was the case the last game could be celebratory with many of the players performing who achieved qualification. In all honesty it is difficult to see what other options were available to Pim this time due to the Euro players being given a well desrved rest.
So far Pim has 100% qualification record for the Socceroos. l bet some other coaches wish they could say the same.
Midfielder said | June 25th 2008 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
Towser
Re your points ticked off.
That was the start of the process, we need a womens league, a youth league, a 12 team comp, a system in place quite soon to explain how P & R will operate in Australia, a new U 14 national team, play reasonably well in ACL, make the World Cups both mens and womens, make Olympics & Asian cup as well.
Add to this grow the player base, improve and develop a new way of playing sport in Australia for U 10 , maybe to U 12.
All this with small budgets, with little media support.
Essentially to get through the next five to six years will be difficult. By then assuming we achieve all above our media deal will take a lot of pressur off.
In the mean time fight against traditional media interests from other codes.
Its going to be a interesting ride ………….. but if Obie One can stay fit then I think we will get there.
Slippery Jim said | June 25th 2008 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
I agree Dave, especially with what you say about celebrating the last game as we had made it to the next round of qualification, they are the sentiments you would expect from a seasoned and knowledgable football fan, however I fear that the majority of the 70,000 attendees in this match were not so football-educated.
One minor point I would disagree with is that “Pim has 100% qualification record for the Socceroos” – so far Pim Verbeek has not qualified the socceroos, we have at least one more crucial stage at best, maybe 2 or 3 more stages depending on results, before we can say if we have succeeded in qualification yet – as the Asian Cup campaign should have taught us, nothing is ever assured.
In other footballing terms, Pim does not have a great record by any means, only having won 3, drawn 1 and lost 2 – hardly 100% by any stretch…
Dave said | June 25th 2008 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
There may be some that will be disappointed and not want to pay to see the Socceroos next time. They are comparing the game v China to the one v Uruguay in 2005 and so there is no comparison. This is part of the education process of the new system. Some sports fans will drop off the Socceroos but as momentum builds l can tell you that many thousands more (if not millions) will jump on for the ride but…not every game will be a classic and there probably will be some draws and maybe a loss. It is just like any journey, season, qulaification will have its ups and downs. In the long run the downs make the ups even sweeter. Fans that just want the theatre will drop off here and there. The same happens in every sport but qualification to SA and then qualification into the knockout rounds will have everyone on the edge of their seats.
It all starts on Friday (live on Fox) with the draw for the next stage…cant wait.
Slippery Jim said | June 25th 2008 @ 5:49pm | Report comment
Midfielder, excellent points, and there are several other issues that could be added, as the reaction and results achieved from the 2003 Crawford report show, change comes slowly and a bit at a time, but progress can be made.
jimbo said | June 25th 2008 @ 8:05pm | Report comment
Pimbo, we understand what you are up to, we’ve learnt our lessons, we’ve learnt to be humble and we’ve learnt to be patient and we’re confident this is not going to happen again.
We started off with 46 Asian nations vying for a South Africa 2010 FIFA World Cup finals qualification place – only 10 remain. 36 Asian nations already eliminated and amongst others, Iraq (Asian Champions) and China (most populous) are out.
We’re still in there. The next 8 Footballroos games will decide the 2 Asian qualifiers from our group.
Pimbo, we remember what happened in the Asian Cup. We were arrogant and impatient and offended our Asian neighbours. We have learnt our lessons. These games are going to be very difficult and there won’t be any dead rubbers at the end of it all.
The best available team will be chosen to play in every game and all home games will be sold out in advance. The last 2 home games for the Footballroos will decide the 2 qualifiers from our Group of Death. Only after the last game in Sydney will we humbly and graciously accept our place amongst the FIFA World Cup Finalists in South Africa, with no malicious thoughts of inflicting football revenge on Italy and Brazil.
Thanks Pimbo, we have been enlightened.
Towser said | June 26th 2008 @ 9:25am | Report comment
Midfielder
If you look at what happened in the MLS & the J-League the next 5 years or so are crucial. This is the period after the honeymoon ends & reality takes over,particularly re the A-League.
Which is after all where all the players from the structures you mentioned should be starting their football career.
You state “All this with small budgets, with little media support”. A very interesting point.
Some people are puzzled as to where the support for football comes from in Australia given in comparison to other sports the amount of money spent on advertising and lack of media support.
It is quite simple really and was shown to me a few years ago when a marketing firm found that support for football at that time(I think early 2005) was from an emotional & personal perspective whereas in other sports their support was on a media & commercial level. They found that football had the most potential to grow because it had not yet tapped into the media/commercial support.
Midfielder said | June 26th 2008 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Towser
Me thinks the next 10 years and next five in particular are going to be very hard ……….. to create the youth league, women’s league, 12 team A-League, have in place more than likely if not finished close to it a B-League of between 8 to 12 teams P & R set up ready to go, run 10 international sides including the new U 14 level, qualify for world cups at both junior and senior levels in both mens and womens, quality for Olympics, this takes heaps of money,……………. money that even today can only be dreamed about. FFA has to find the money.
Further but equally is to bring about a a fundamental shift in junior football from competitive games to essentially training sessions, from U 5 to U 10 and maybe to U 12. This will require park teams to find more volunteers at a time when it is hard to get people in there busy lives to help.
There are battles ahead as you point out …………. perhaps the biggest will be for the elite sportsman, and with big money on offer the AFL are in a strong but not dominate position. For mine the battle stretches between Wollongong and the Sunshine Coast whoever wins here will be the winner, don’t disregard football in this market it is strong on the ground …….. poor at converting those ground numbers into A-League supporters …….. they already are Socceroo supporters but not football supporters. Another battle will be in time to get the EPL & Champions League watches to the A-League.
Converting those who play the game for fun, and watch the Socceroos into football people, this is where the A-League clubs need to answer the call, and SFC should hang its head in shame at its woeful ability to connect to the football family to date, however if a Gong and WS team come in then the Sydney associations can be looked after with the Mariners to the north, Gong southern, WS the west and SFC the inner city and east.
If FFA get through the next five years and have all the above in place, then the next five year stage will come and that will be an FA cup style competition between A-League. B-League and state teams, also the adding of the Pacific Island Team and even have an A-League team playing out of Singapore. This would open the A-League to a population base of over 40 million. Products on offer after 10 years,…. 14 / 16 team A-League …. 14 team B league………. Womens league …… Youth League ………… Socceroos having made 2006, 2010, 2014, 2018 WC, Womens team similar, both make Asian Cup, Australia win Asian cup, Mid Week FA cup, P & R in place, Make 2008, 2012, 2016 Olympics both mens and womens, Four Asian Champions league spots and matches, 40 million potential viewers.
The media after the ten years then would be IMO worth more than AFL & NRL combined.
But to get there ………… boy what hazardous and lie ahead……….. hard work / patience / trust / support ………. all this an more will get football through …………MAYBE ………………. We have to last next year, then the next year.
IMO each year until the next media deal is made will be harder than the one before ………… little funds thus small budgets ……. expect to be attacked by vested media interest. However football’s media is slowly growing and in print there are a number of clever jurnos especially in the local papers waiting for there turn in the mainstream press.
Me I just hope that Obie One (Frank Lowy) can make the next 7 years at least, and I am glad we have BB on board as he brings AFL thinking and thus hopefully will be able to anticipate AFL moves.
Me I will keep going to Mariners games and get as many as I can to do likewise.
TBH despite our poor history, and small budgets and all the problems that lie ahead ……….. maybe I am foolish …….. I used to be blonde before I went grey ………….. but I think we will get there.
Midfielder said | June 26th 2008 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Towser
Articles like this will help ………this is a great cause ………. but should do a lot to promote both football and the Socceroos.
From 442
Socceroos Team With UNICEF
THE Socceroos will appear in a new TV advertisement for UNICEF as part of the “Together We’ll Level The Playing Field” campaign.
Lucas Neill, Tim Cahill, Mark Schwarzer and Mark Bresciano appear in the commercial which is part of the FFA’s landmark strategic partnership with UNICEF announced today.
Cahill and Harry Kewell also spoke via video link at today’s launch where they lent their support to the initiative.
This community strategic partnership is not a financial commitment by the FFA, rather, the national body is expected to be involved in UNICEF projects in South East Asia as well as in Indigenous communities in Australia.
John Stewart, UNICEF’s deputy chair in Australia, told au.fourfourtwo.com that only football in Australia offers the synergies with a worldwide organisation like UNICEF.
“It’s the number of people who play football, the type of people and it’s the reach. We don’t want money from the FFA, we want opportunities and the reach they can give us.”
Stewart was unequivocal thatr UNICEF was more of a fit with football over Australia’s other more established codes.
“We’ve got to match the values as well,” he said. “We think football in Australia, and the people who play football in Australia, can help us in this way.”
To help support the FFA’s work with UNICEF, the public can call 1300 884 233 or visit either http://www.footballaustralia.com.au or http://www.unicef.org.au.
Dave said | June 26th 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
Midfielder Towser
Just bought the MV memberships for self and son. A mate who refused to even attend MV games even though he is a football person (West Ham???) has just called to say he had finally relented from my hassling and bought his 1st MV membership. Now there will be 5-6 of us going to games! Small but important steps. Keep up the good words.
Dave said | June 26th 2008 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
Towser
Your cautionary note and comparison to the J League is very relevant. Same happened in the MLS where after promising early seasons the league began to plateau then slip backwards re attendances etc. Japanese were helped by WC 2002 with new stadiums, renewed interest etc. MLS began to build own stadiums with ownership rights etc. Both seem to be travelling very well now. So expect a levelling off with HAL although WC qualification may well prevent this particularly if some HAL players are in SA 2010!
Slippery Jim said | June 26th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Dave, you make a good point about the MLS – in fact one important factor in increasing their flagging attendances was to build custom-built rectangular stadiums rather than using existing grounds used by other codes.
Towser said | June 26th 2008 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
Midfielder Dave
Good to see such positive thoughts & ideas from football fans. That to me is the major change in football in Australia ,positivity,albeit with caution regarding the things that are still needed to be done.
What I see as one of the major changes is the FFA recognising & using footballs International identity as per the UNICEF deal to further its profile. If it also helps a good cause ,all the better. In the middle of arranging my Roar season tickets at the moment.
Midfielder said | June 26th 2008 @ 5:51pm | Report comment
Dave / S Jim/ Towswer / Jimbo and so on
The bloke that FL is trying to get for the gong bid ………..Bruce Gordon (I think) …………… I guess we all knew he owns WIN TV ……….. all well and good what that could do for regional football.
WELL GUESS WHAT ………. A mate who works in the stock exchange says he now owns 15% of Channel 10 and has asked permission to own up to 20%. Football could be getting its own Kerry Stokes as Bruce is a football man through and through.
Has the potential to make life very interesting especially in the news / sports reporting !!!
Redb said | June 26th 2008 @ 10:04pm | Report comment
Towser,
your comment: “It is quite simple really and was shown to me a few years ago when a marketing firm found that support for football at that time(I think early 2005) was from an emotional & personal perspective whereas in other sports their support was on a media & commercial level. They found that football had the most potential to grow because it had not yet tapped into the media/commercial support.”
This is untrue of AFL support in Melbourne, it is very much an emotional and personal connection and yours perhaps is an outside view that is it purely media and commercial. i think Dave despite his allegiances to the round ball code would back me up on this point. I’m trying to be objective here but I think your perspective could not be more wrong about other codes but specificially AFL.
I’m not suggesting that the Socceroos dont invoke the same connections for some people but to think that AFL is just a media contrived commercial entity is wrong. Emotion and passion run deep and our ingrained within heartland AFL followers.
Redb
Midfielder said | June 26th 2008 @ 10:58pm | Report comment
Redb
I don’t think that is what Dave or the research is saying. In all codes emotion is at the core of why a sport is followed.
However even in AFL there are some who are there because of the hype (to strong a word) but overall media given to a code.
Given football has never had much good press, that part of a codes support that is media driven has a potential to get support.
Simply the media coverage given to any sport helps it, as more media comes to football it will get extra support.
But your point on emotion there is no doubt that AFL crowds and the emotion they bring are a large part of why AFL is so successful of this there is no doubt.
jimbo said | June 26th 2008 @ 11:46pm | Report comment
The emotions get you in initially, but to maintain the long term interest in a sport there needs to be the commercial and media exposure regular follow up.
The A-League has started with a bang but to maintain the momentum the FFA will have to invest more money in the game and come up with some better marketing ideas.
AFL have the money and the media and its going to make it nigh impossible to take over from them as the number 1 Australian sport (however you want to define that) in the near term, but this does not concern me.
FFA can still achieve all its objectives (as outlined by Midfelder) without being the number one sport within the next ten years.
Towser said | June 28th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Redb,Midfielder,Jimbo
Midfielders, jimbo ’s reply to Redb ,pretty much sums up what I would have said.
I only quoted the research of the marketing company,which I knew to be true as far as football went.
Midfielder said | June 28th 2008 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
Towser
What did you think of our Asian Qualifers draw, Japan & Ubeckies not half bad sides.
Slippery Jim said | July 11th 2008 @ 9:13pm | Report comment
Hmm…most read article for two weeks running, most discussed (largely due to my own ramblings) and only 4 cheers??? You bunch of tight arses!!!