By Sunil Menon
June 25th 2008 @ 11:33pm
Loading ...The English football team: a class below
The Three Lions are a notable absentee at this year’s European Championship, though some would say they were unlucky in the qualification rounds.
They drew eventual quarter finalist and group B winners Croatia, and the eye catching Russians, who under former Aussie maestro Guus Hiddink have been the undisputed highlight of the tournament, marching into the semi finals after a dramatic win over the red hot Dutch.
So how can the English, the owners of the probably the best league in the world, with three out of the four teams in the Champions League semi-finals, teams competing well in the second tier UEFA cup and a wealth of talent across all 20 EPL clubs, not make it to the biggest stage in Europe?
Some point to the influx of foreign players that dominate the league: Cristiano Ronaldo, Cesc Fabregas, Fernando Torres, Emmanuel Adebayor, Dider Drogba and Peter Cech confirm that.
Whilst the EPL does consist of a wealth of talent from around the globe, the major difference between these players and their English teammates comes down to the plain and simple fact that these players are world class, and a majority of the English are simply not.
Take for example England’s back five.
David James would not cut it at most of the teams present in the quarter finals (except Turkey, who are so desperate for players they would probably play him up front!)
Micah Richards is an up and comer and probably not fair to judge as yet.
Ashley Cole, despite his very questionable temperament, has improved greatly and holds his own.
Rio Ferdinand likewise, case in point being his great league form and performances against Roma and Chelsea in the Champions League.
The same cannot be said for his partner John Terry, who is so highly regarded by the English fans, media and coaching staff, but that is all. Terry is that old fashioned swashbuckling type of English player, the heart on the sleeve stuff; great if you’re playing in the cut and dry Premiership, but surely one needs more to succeed on the international stage.
In midfield, the lack of a quality wide player really hurts England.
Joe Cole has promised so much for so long, but has rarely delivered at both club and domestic level due to injuries and poor form.
Players down the left have been tried a dime a dozen: Nicky Shorey from Reading, Stuart Downing, and the right footed Shaun Wright-Phillips.
Again, none of whom would make it into a team in the quarter finals of this year’s competition.
Youngsters David Bentley and Ashley Young appear as though they will be some sort of long-term solution, with solid seasons at Blackburn and Aston Villa respectively.
The centre of the park is where England does have the players who can make a difference.
Steven Gerrard, Liverpool’s talisman and skipper, has been slammed consistently for not performing as well in the White national shirt as the Red domestic one. However, his leadership, shooting from distance, and all round midfield hardness is a feature that new boss Fabio Capello must build his side around.
Along with Owen Hargreaves, this is a partnership that can definitely give England the much needed direction they desire.
Gareth Barry’s recent run of good form also sees him as a challenger for this spot, whilst Manchester United’s Michael Carrick seems a steady back up.
The prominence of Barry and Carrick must surely mean the end of Frank Lampard’s international career. For so long many have felt he and Gerrard simply do not fit in the same side.
Lampard backers, however, argue that his consistent 20 plus goals a season should put him ahead of the Merseyside man. This should not be the case when many goals are courtesy of tap-ins, deflected free kicks and penalties.
Lampard simply does not measure up as an international, and is held in high regard at Chelsea as he is not required to do the grunt work in midfield which is left to Makele, Essien and Mikel.
A big feature of this year’s European Championship has been the form of strikers and attacking midfielders.
Arshavin and Palvechenko for the Russians, Van Nisterlrooy, Snidjer , Robben and Van Persie from the Dutch, Villa, Iniesta, Silva, Torres and Fabregas for the Spanish, Schweinstiger, Ballack, Podolski and Klose for the Germans.
Could you see England’s front men such as Owen, Rooney, Ashton, Defoe, or Crouch producing similar standards of play? Not a chance.
Rooney is without doubt the pick of the lot. However, his club form even beside the on-fire Cristiano Ronaldo was patchy during the past season.
Whilst no team in the final eight of this year’s championship have world-class players in all positions, they have plenty more quality than the English.
If the hard questions are going to be asked, there are only three truly world class players in their ranks: Gerrard, Ferdinand and Ashley Cole.
England’s saving grace is that the young players they have coming through appear to have the qualities needed to succeed in international football.
South Africa in 2010 may be too soon to expect anything from this bunch, but Capello is a hard task master with proven success at club and international level.
It is not only the new talent that he must harness, but a change in playing style to one that is attacking and swift to make the Three Lions a competitor in world football once again.
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Slippery Jim said | June 26th 2008 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Sunil, your analysis is laughable. To question Frank Lampard or John Terry’s international credibility exposes your lack of knowledge and/or anti-Chelsea bias. The single most represented player nationality in the UEFA Champions League final was English, and Frank Lampard scored in the final. To dismiss his fine goal scoring record (which is superior in every way to Gerrards at both club and international level) as if they were all “lucky deflections” is a common fallacy by the ignorant or more cynical persons, as the stats show the percentage of goals he has scored from deflections is extremely low. Also, England’s backline has always been the envy of their national counterparts. Before submitting an article I suggest you do some proper research first.
sledgeross said | June 26th 2008 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Im the opposite. Great article Sunil. Gerrard is certianly a better allround player than Lampard, and the Poms do have trouble putting it together as a team.
Sunil Menon said | June 26th 2008 @ 10:25am | Report comment
The envy? Yeh I’m sure playing international class players there such as Wes Brown and Nicky Shorey make it a massive envy. Say what you like about Franky Lamps, he is in every single way inferior to Gerrard. Lack of leadership, passing range is more limited, and physical hardness in the tackle? Lampard isn’t even in the same street as Gerrard for that. He is an above average player Lampard, he is just not good enough to play his favored position over Gerrard in the centre of the park for England. Yeh he scores a few more then Stevie, but as an overall contribution Gerrard is certainly a better player you must admit
Re Terry I stand by my comments completly. He needs to sort out his attitude and temprement before he is considered a world class player. Look at this guy, he berates refs, yells at opposition teams for diving when his mate Didier is probably the worst of the lot. Crys when he loses and does not know the meaning of winning gracefully. Only the English truly rate him, no other European press or players really have much to say about him. Carvalho and Cech are the secret to Chelsea’s strong defence, not JT
Slippery Jim said | June 26th 2008 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Sunil Menon, you really are clueless, aren’t you? If Terry has been made captain for England by both McClaren and Capello, what does that tell you about his mentality, leadership skills and international credentials? And didn’t he score in the last England game? Terry was also named as 3rd best England player in a recent fans poll. As for Lampard, he scored three goals in four matches in Euro 2004 and was named in the official Euro 2004 All-Star squad by the UEFA technical study group. Lampard became a fixture in Eriksson’s squad, scoring five goals during England’s last successful World Cup qualifying campaign. This culminated in him being voted England Player of the Year by fans in 2004 and 2005. As recently as last November he was named man of the match against Croatia. He has scored 150 in his career, Gerrard only 96, and Lampard’s international goals-to-game ratio is 1 goal every 4.36 matches, whereas Gerrard’s is only 5.15. Just the other day, Ronaldinho called Lampard “A great player”. Hmmm…who to take seriously, Ronaldinho or Sunil…
Sunil Menon said | June 26th 2008 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Righto then, perhaps you should ’slip’ your Chelsea shirt off and have a look at this objectively. JT was made skipper by Mclaren, but just how well did Mclaren go? Ah yes. Not very well at all. Rio or Gerrard would be a far wiser choice as skipper and everyone knows it. One thing that you forgot to mention about Lampards representation in the UEFA 2004 all star squad is that it was 4 years ago!!!! Fine he scored goals in major tournaments, did you know at the 2006 World Cup he had 32 shots from 5 Matches, result 0 goals. It’s enough to make you laugh that a professional player could have that many shots and not have one on target. That’s great what Ronnie had to say about young Frank, however before the 2007 CL final Kaka said re Stevie
“Steven Gerrard is an excellent, modern player because he’s a player who runs, marks, knows how to pass, cross, score goals, and is a leader in the field for Liverpool. He’s a player that I’d like to have in my team.”
Not bad praise from the reigning player of the year, not a has been like Ronnie. Oh and just in case you forgot Gerrard’s rep honours, PFA player of the year 06. UEFA team of the year 05,06,07, CL MVP 04-05, and in the PFA team of the year for the last 5 years running and in 01. Contrast to this to young Franky Boy who crept in 04 and 05, and was second in the European footballer of the year in 05 behind young Ronnie. So all in all Gerrard’s massive consistency outweighs Lampard’s one good season in 05. Please stop arguing your point Jimbo, there really is no comparison between the two.
Slippery Jim said | June 26th 2008 @ 11:42am | Report comment
Further on John Terry, according to Wikipedia, “Terry is known as one of the best defenders in the world. He was voted best defender in the UEFA Champions League in 2005. He was also the only English player to be named in the group of best players for the 2006 FIFA World Cup. ”
In the July 2007 edition of World Soccer Magazine, players from a variety of clubs were asked who they thought was the perfect captain. The following are a selection of quotes from players who chose John Terry.
- “Even from the outside the game you can appreciate that John Terry is the boss of the Chelsea side in all ways.”-Cesc Fabregas, Arsenal F.C..
- “You can see that everybody always looks for John Terry on the pitch. He is vital for Chelsea.”-Gabriel Heinze, Manchester United.
- “…what you need is a good communicator and organizer, such as John Terry, who obviously cares deeply about his club.”-Christoph Metzelder, Real Madrid.
- “John Terry is the perfect skipper. It’s obvious Chelsea means everything to him. When he makes those last ditch blocks, team-mates can’t help but be inspired.”-Kasey Keller, Fulham FC.
FIFPro is “the worldwide representative organization for all professional soccer players.” (Basically, 45,000 players from 42 different players’ unions, whose votes decide this team.) Terry was named in the 2006 “World XI”, and both JT and Lampard are in the shortlist for 2007.
Clearly world class, and deserved England captain.
Matt said | June 26th 2008 @ 11:57am | Report comment
Gerrard’s all round game is as limited as Lampard’s. Neither are creative, ball holding midfielders in the mould of Pirlo, Schneider etc. Gerrard often tries to do too much himself, his nickname is Stevie Me for good reason. Sometimes is pays off (Champs League final against Milan), often it does not. In a team like Liverpool where the quality around him is inferior (excluding Torres), he can get away with it. With England, he cannot.
England’s back 4 is the envy of many national sides. Holland has Boulahrouz for crying out loud. Pannucci was a failure at Chelsea. Ferdinand and A Cole are up there with the best in the world in their positions. I am a Terry doubter, I believe he is very good, but not at that World Class level due to his limitations. King and Woodgate are decent enough back ups though. (I assume your a Liverpool supporter, so before you mention Carragher, I’ll get my response out now .. ha ha ha ha ha)
England’s weakness is on wings and up forward. Rooney is no Lineker, Shearer, Sheringham. Previously, England at least had a forward they could rely on to get goals, no matter how uncreative and dour the football being played behind them was. Rooney for all his talent does not get goals when it counts and lacks that certain something, reliability if you will. The other options up front are, as you have said, extremely poor.
On the wings, England lack players with pace and technical ability. Walcott may become that player under the tutilage (sp?) of Wenger, but he’s a long way off yet. Aaron Lennon was supposed to develop into that type of player, but his development has gone backwards, such that Spurs are considering a future without him.
Sunil Menon said | June 26th 2008 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Matt is a man who actually makes sense and knows what he is talking about. I wouldnt say Gerrard is limited, a feature of his play this season was his ability to play off Torres, whilst still tracking back and making the big tackles when required. Lampard’s features would be his ability to strike a cracking shot…. From 3m out. Against Derby or Reading. It has to be said at the 10th -20th attemp though.
Carragher is a good defender. Not world class, but if Shorey, Wes Brown or Phil Neville can wear an England Shirt, then so too can the Liverpool man. Its a case of him playing with more passion and committment for the Reds then for England. And rightfully so when McLaren use to put incredibley crap players ahead of him for the national side.
Ferdinand and Cashley Cole are only two out of the back 5..the other 3 are very questionable. Italy’s defence at full strength with Nesta, Cannavaro, Zambrotta and Grosso, with Buffon in the sticks is undoubtably the best going round, the Germans are also up there, whilst Pepe and Carvalho for Portugal are also extremley solid, playing with Madrid and Chelsea confirm that.
Walcott, Young, and Bentley will probably solve the width problem that they have, however it is too early to say with most of these players. All have shown glimpses. Walcott’s run against Liverpool at Anfield in the CL was simply awesome and hopefully a sign of things to come.
PommyAussie said | June 26th 2008 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Russia have more world class players? Don’t make me laugh, before Guus they were nothing, it is Guus that has got them where they are, he takes average players and makes a great team (Australia and South Korea), the FA wanted Guus but he chose Russia. Under Guus we’d be where Russia are and probably stronger. Then would you be saying that WE have world class players just because we (hypothetically) achieved what Russia has instead of stating we don’t have the quality?
We have the players (although the influx of foreign players is making it more and more difficult to showcase our own young talent i.e., cash to buy great foreign players for instant success) but don’t seem to be able to put it together when we need to, it’s extremely frustrating.
sledgeross said | June 26th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Has the English football team developed since 1966????
Sunil Menon said | June 26th 2008 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
Not that Russia have more world class players, Arshavin and Palevechenko are clearly two of the best going around at the moment. Plus 7 of the current semi final squad were part of Zenit’s winning UEFA cup team. So clearly they are capable. Contrast this to all the English players who played in the CL final, who obviously are not at the European Championships and this is what I’m saying the problem is, they are lacking truly world class players in the important positions, particuarly in attack. Yes Guus has done a good job, he has spent the past two years there though, and has more talent at his disposal with the Russians then he ever did with Us (aussies) and South Korea.
Slippery Jim said | June 26th 2008 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
So Russia have ‘capable’ players due to the fact that they had some players in the “also rans”, sorry, UEFA cup – a far inferior competition to the UEFA champions league – yet somehow English players, of whom there were half a dozen from each club alone in the final, are ‘lacking truly world class players’. Looks like someone hasn’t passed logic 101…
Saj said | June 26th 2008 @ 8:38pm | Report comment
Good article, you make some excellent points Sunil. Without a doubt England’s world class players are Ferdinand, Cole and Gerrard, the only ones that have consistently played well (at both club and international level). For all you fans of Terry, I agree that he is a solid defender. But to say that he is one of the best defenders in the world? He is lucky enough to play with other great defenders (Cole and Carvalho) and has one of the best goalkeepers in the world behind him, more than enough to make him look better than he is. I mean, the Special One hasn’t even tried to get him to Inter, how good can JT really be if Mourinho wouldnt even try and replace Materazzi with him?!!
As for Frank Lampard….yes the man scored a lot of goals. Yes they were mainly crap. Scoring crap goals does not make you a world class player. It makes you a player who happens to be in the right place at the right time. I mean, Inzaghi scores a lot of goals but would you call him a world class striker ?No he’s just in the right place at the right time(and I say that as a Milan fan). Same with Lampard, if you could get an actual striker or attacking midfielder to replace his crap goals with good ones, he becomes redundant.
Which brings me to the main problem with England…no great strikers (unless Rooney decides to be in good form) and more importantly, no good attacking midfielders. Every other country has built their team around playmakers and attacking midfielder s(Kaka, Ballack, Pirlo, Arshavin, Cesc, Iniesta etc) and England has absolutely no-one at that standard. Gerrard and Hargreaves are great midfielders but they are not really the brilliant ball winners and creaters that the other countries have. Rather they are the tough, hard working ones you need but arent really going to turn the game like a Pirlo can. Basically to turn this solid but unspectular England team into one that can actually qualify and maybe even win a tournament, that boring midfield needs to find someone a bit more excitng. Good luck with that
Sunil Menon said | June 26th 2008 @ 11:23pm | Report comment
Good point there regarding Mourinhio and JT there Saj, didn’t even think of that myself!! The Special One is busting his guts to get Franky(for reasons unknown to intelligent people), but couldn’t care less about his teary JT!
Jimbo I don’t deal with morons son. Im not saying that the Russian players are ALL world class, im saying Arshavin and Palvechenko clearly are, and that the solid Zenit team with players that did win the UEFA cup, are now also carving up the Euro’s, and the English, simply are not. Please take your Chelsea bias and go away
Slippery Jim said | June 27th 2008 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Your attempt at logic has more holes than a swiss cheese, Sunil.
You say JT is no good because Mourinho isn’t attempting to buy him…
This is explained by two reasons:
1. JT and Mourinho had a falling out and
2. JT came through the Chelsea youth ranks and is Chelsea through and through, and will eventually even coach the team)
…and yet you say Lampard is no good, even though Mourinho is his primary target. You are welcome to your negative themed blog, Sunil, your primary school reasoning and your childish personal attacks.
PS “Jimbo” is the name of another totally different blogger…
Chris said | June 27th 2008 @ 9:59am | Report comment
Dispite the accuracy or inaccuracy of the players mentioned, the article represents the critical view of the England side, nessessary if a form reversal is to be achieved. The one thing we can not argue about is the sub par performance of the national side in all competition in the last decade. Sure, there are alot of big name players with excellent club form that consistantly underperform at international level but instead of arguing their inclusion or exclusion surley we should be concentrating on the lack of English players in the league and the ridiculous amount of games these players play in a season. The greedy nature of clubs and the preimer league are responsible for the poor performance of the England national team. Preimer League clubs are becomming more and more reluctant to release players for international duty, despite which country they play for, and therefore the disturbing notion of club before country (demonstrated by the difference in form of many players) is becoming prevelent in the English game.
Sunil said | June 27th 2008 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Look say what you like champ, if you feel so strongly, write your own article. The fact of the matter is no one has agreed with you, JT and Lampard remain overrated, and overpaid.
JT’s problem with Jose actually started the hours before the match with Rosenberg, after which Jose left the club. Terry was culpabale for the first goal, but refused (in his normal childish way) not to admit it was his fault. This lead to more problems at half time and for Terry, WITHOUT consulting any of his team mates or staff, to tell the board that Jose had lost the playing group. The way he speaks and the way you speak of him, it seems like JT should be coaching now!!
What the hell does being ‘Chelsea through and through’ mean anyway. Carra and Stevie are Liverpool through and through. Neville and Scholes are United through and through. Its not like JT is the first local to come through the ranks and skipper his club. Or does he want a medal for that too? There is no personal attacks here champ, just expressing opinion and your opinion would hold more weight if you weren’t so blatantly Chelsea orientated.
sledgeross said | June 27th 2008 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
Terry is a goose. He thinks he’s special cos the pretty much the only local product Chelski have produced lately.
Slippery Jim said | June 27th 2008 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
“no one has agreed with you”
Really? I beg to differ Sunil, as per my previous posts, I’m pretty sure I’ve quoted Ronaldinho, Fabregas, Heinze, Metzelder, Keller, FIFPro, Wikipedia, McClaren, Capello, the UEFA technical study group, the majority of England fans from 04-05, as well as stats that all agree with what I am saying, which is far more than you have presented to say they are not “international standard”, so the weight of evidence is well and truly against you, champ.
Terry being ‘Chelsea through and through’ means, Mourinho knows he has absolutely no chance of signing him from his beloved club, that’s what.
I can only assume your research for this article was conducted by trawling the same tabloids where you got that blather about Terry, which explains the lack of depth or relevancy…
sledgeross said | June 27th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Well, if Kasey Keller AND Wikipedia agree, you have some explaining to do Suni!
AL said | June 28th 2008 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Sunil, your having a good laugh there mate
John Terry is a quality defender. Please find me a team that would reject John Terry. Saj, the reason Inter and Jose are not making a move for Terry is simple. He would never leave Chelsea. Thats not hard to figure out.
Lack of world-class players in England? Thats possibly one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen. You all forget what a player Owen can be when he’s not injured. Beckham is still playing for them, in case you all forgot that too. Lampard and Gerard are both world-class, however they dont work well together in the centre of the park. Hargreves and Carrick are quailty players. And Wes Brown is surely not as bad as you all believe.
So Sunil, can you take your Liverpool top off now please?
Chris said | June 28th 2008 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Wes Brown? The guy is of A-League quality! I’d sooner have Craig Moore! Wes Brown……Ha! Wes Brown….really mate that’s a little too far, really!
Sunil Menon said | June 29th 2008 @ 9:30pm | Report comment
AL one of the stupidest things you have ever seen ey? I think one of the stupidest things I have ever seen is your response, perhaps even stupider then our Slippery friend, which is an effort in itself!!
Owen ( HAHAHAHHAHA) mate you are a deadset riot…that’s like saying Harry Kewell is world class..he is a brilliant player..who in his younger days promised so much and tore the EPL apart, but injuries set him back big time. There is a massive difference when you are ‘coulda been’ world class player and actually are like the previously mentioned Steven Gerrard, Rio and Cashley Cole.
Beckham? Mate, you really are a learned football man, in case you are not aware he does not play for Manchester United anymore (the EPL Winners) or Real Madrid ( the La Liga winners) he plays for LA Galaxy in some fairy competition in a country where Football is watched barely if at all ( yes he has helped bring fans into the sport) but seriously world class?? You are comedian my friend, I look forward to catching you at the Comedy Festival down in Melbourne next year..
PS: Wes Brown should be considered a side act for your show, he looks like a human peanut and is rubbish and is bailed out by the class of Rio and Vidic
Slippery Jim said | June 30th 2008 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Stupid? Do tell Sunil Menon.
Please point out a fault in my posts, as I have only included rational factual information.
As for Beckham, well if Pele can name him in his list of greatest living footballers, that’s good enough for me. Hmmm…Sunil or Pele, Sunil or Pele, which has more credibility…that’s a tough one.
I hope you don’t dismiss the A-League in the same casual way you dismiss the MLS, since the same disparagement could be aimed our way…And Wes Brown? While not the best example of England’s quality in defence, might I remind you he was an intrinsic part of Manchester Uniteds march to two back-to-back EPL titles, and a UEFA Champions League title in the last two years. Obviously better than “A-League quality”.
Have the tired Anglophobes who seem draw to this blog like bitter hate-filled moths got anything except childish insults to add to this topic? Or should this Blog be titled ‘Sunil Menon, a class below’? Might I suggest some calm, reasoned debate, perchance? Or do you simply want a slanging match?
PommyAussie said | June 30th 2008 @ 11:40am | Report comment
This discussion is ridiculous! Who here would not argue that if Guus (just for examples sake or any half decent coach) were in charge of England they’d have qualified for Euro2008 and (not saying they’d have won) mixed it up with the likes of Italy, Germany etc.
We do have great players (maybe not the best in all honesty) but easily good enough to compete to the quarters if not the semis. We underachieved in qualifying, that is why we didn’t qualify and fair enough we didn’t deserve to qualify…. not because our players are are not good enough they just didn’t put it together. Plus Mclaren is a joke!
Sunil Menon said | June 30th 2008 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Whilst there can be no doubting your factual information in your posts Mr Slippery, my first few posts regarding Steven Gerrard are also of note and factual. If you English want to bury your head in the sand and say there are no problems, by all means be my guest. Beckham WAS a world class player, he is still player of quality, but world class? come now son, get yourself a stiff drink and have a think about that. Plus how long is he going to be around, the next world cup is two years away.
Match yourselves against the Spanish side that lined up last night. They had so much quality they could afford to take off possibly the worlds best striker, Torres and one of the best central midfield players in the world Cesc Fabregas, yet still play a passing and controlled game of pure Football magic! But of course what I am I saying, I’m sure if Rooney or Gerrard came off and were replace by Wright-Phillips and Ashton that England would pass the socks off most teams, no less the Germans who are extremely tough and love to boss the midfield with big tackles.
But. If you seem to think there is no problem with this team then that is your call. Consistently making quarter finals and bombing out, to not even qualifying for a tournament at all would set alarm bells ringing for me. Plus if you feel so strongly about stuff Jimbo, have some balls and write your own article, rather then coming out and potting everyone else.
Slippery Jim said | June 30th 2008 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Sunil, I have no gripe with Gerrard, he is an excellent player, I just think Lampard is better, that’s all. Spain are, of course, a brilliant team, and are deserved winners.
In defence of Jimbo, he has written his own articles, most recently “The Asian Qualification draw: is it the money or the pot?” is so good The Roar published it twice…
Also not sure why you think I’m English…probably the same reason you think Lampard and Terry are rubbish – a lack of information and research, and far too much guesswork and presumption…
Sunil Menon said | June 30th 2008 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
A lack of information and research? Your right mate it must be presumption and guesswork, because I wasn’t aware in your accomplished career you played against them on countless occasions. I’m going on what I have seen of them as footballers, what they have achieved and the way they have played in their careers to date. Any person who knows’s Football through and through knows with no doubt that Gerrard is a far greater player then Lampard. Lampard was booed by English fans late last year for Christ’s sake!! Never happened to Stevie, even if he played at Old Trafford with an England shirt on.
I was referring to YOU as Jimbo, saying that you should have written your own article. The fact that you aren’t English and you are defending these chumps makes it even more surprising, why would you defend them with no national allegiance. You deserve a medal, a gutsy effort indeed!
Slippery Jim said | June 30th 2008 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
Sunil Menon, I didn’t say I wasn’t English either, which just goes to show how you jump to conclusions, doesn’t it.
Please explain: why are you referring to me as Jimbo, when it is clearly another regular blogger’s name? Are you just perpetually confused, or just trying to be clever and failing rather horribly?
In defending the England side, I just believe all people deserve fair representation regardless of their nationality.
As for England fans never booing “Stevie”, as I’ve said, I think he is a quality player, however at least one occasion I remember not long ago in November England fans booed his every touch when he played in Newcastle after their frustration at being knocked out of Euro 2008 qualification.
This is an interesting link (albeit from a year ago) which rates EPL players using a mathematical model.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/fink_tank/article1852016.ece
You may be interested to note that Lampard is ranked No 2 in the EPL, and John Terry 23rd.
Fascinatingly, Gerrard is ranked 80th, Ferdinand 11th and Ashley Cole 79th.
One player Rooney (12th) is another player not rated in your article, but who is obviously international quality.
Daniel King said | June 30th 2008 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
Sunil
“Lampard was booed by English fans late last year for Christ’s sake!!”
Lampard was booed by English fans as they vented their frustration at how such a good player was not doing it for England not that they thought he was rubbish.
Also, if you think that Terry and Lampard are so bad why are they regular first team players in one of the toughest leagues in the world……. The Champions league? Finalists and semi finalists at that. If they were not good why would they be playing, the coaches think that they are good enough to play in a league against many of the world class players that you talk about and more than hold there own. I would say that the best reference they could have and pretty much puts your argument to bed.
I’m not saying we have the depth of the Spanish or the tactics of the Germans but in my humble opinion these are two great, great players.
Sunil Menon said | June 30th 2008 @ 6:52pm | Report comment
Mate pull maths, science, trig, geometry, whatever the hell you want to pull that is a sad and pathetic attempt to prove Lampard is a better or more rated player. It takes into context players position. Well why don’t we have a look at a tackle count, or distance run. Of course maths is going to prove Lampard better, he doesn’t track back and will eventually score from a penalty, tap in or deflection, following the good work of Drogba or Essien (i.e players who actually have talent) Any proper football fan will take Gerrard.
http://soccerlens.com/calling-all-liverpool-and-chelsea-fans-gerrard-vs-lampard/490/
Just have a read. Fans around the world clllllllearly tell you they would take the man Gerrard anyday. Lampard won’t even make the England side now that his mates Sven and Steve aren’t there, and a proper footballing man like Fabio will take the reigns and move this side forward. Sorry mate I can’t be bothered wasting my time with Football novice’s like you anymore, man up, have an opinion and express it in an article.
Sunil Menon said | June 30th 2008 @ 6:56pm | Report comment
Oh and added to that, Jose is going to pay a whopping £7m pounds for Frank! £7m!! My godfather, if Gerrard was to be transfer listed, it would be around the £25-30m no doubt! I honestly hope Lampard leaves, fails miserably so the world will finally see what a pathetic player he is without all his Chelski mates around him
Slippery Jim said | July 1st 2008 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Sunil Menon, if you didn’t want my opinion, it was a bit of a mistake writing a blog, wasn’t it? Even if it (and the last one for that matter) is somewhat xenophobic, first against Italian football and then against English. Unlike a previous poster, I don’t find your thoughts constructive, you offer no solutions to your supposed national team problems, they are just outright bias.
And I have written my own articles, looks like you’ve jumped to the wrong ignorant conclusions again…
You say “Maths is going to prove Lampard better”, well glad you finally agree with me.
From the article in your own link: “The thinking man’s choice would be Lampard, as he provides a calming influence as well as a lethal cutting edge in any game, and when he is playing well, will boss any midfield in the world.”
I rest my case.
Towser said | July 1st 2008 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Interesting topic why English football doesn’t acheive what it should on the World stage.
Given that its only major acheivment in the last 50 years is the 1966 World Cup won on home soil ,one could say as this article implies, that England has never produced World class players therefore that is the reason for lack of success .
Simplistic but rubbish.
Having been brought up in the English system of football it went like this & were going back to the time just after the 2nd World War ,but what happened then exists today.
KIcking the ball around as a teenager in the schoolyard in Sheffield we played with a tennis ball(full size football not allowed it would have smashed school windows) some of the kids developed very close Brazilian style control of the tennis ball ,with the tricks you see on the Copacabana. So the finer skills of football as per “Fozzie football”were known in Sheffield at least at an early age.
Unfortunately the reality of Senior football outside school was more brutal. Physicality,stamina,athleticism replaced the sublime skills of the schoolyard. So (& this is from factual experience) I knew several quick sublime, skilful with the tennis ball players, quick, but small, who dropped out ,purely because they were physically intimidated by the players practicing the more English “Christian muscalanity” style of football.
If they had been Spanish maybe some may have been like the midfield of the present Euro winning team.
English teams play the way they do because it is inbred,otherwise they would have learned way back in 1953 after the 6-3 thrashing by Hungary that the way they approached the game was faulty. In other words England invented football but other nations created it. Stanley Matthews played in that match. He was world class . Billy Wright,Stan Mortensen were up there also. But they played the game the English way a mentality as much as playing style thing ,which even today remains.
So Terry Beckham Lampard Gerrard etc are destroyed by the “English mentality” not the fact that they are not World class.
Even the Germans (who obviously by the major trophies in the cupboard yardstick are way ahead of England in recognising whats required in International football) struggled against Spains superb quick control & passing game despite their renowned mental strength & physical prowess the other day.
The ball does the work in football not the man . The man is the creative artist for the football to paint a picture . How beautiful the picture turns out depends on the skill & creativity of the players in a team.
The are many examples of the ball doing the work and succeeding against the man doing the work,but the greatest for me was when Maradona gave Jose Burruchaga a brilliant through pass. It was truly brilliant forcing Briegel a German player & Olympic decathlete to sprint from near the touchline to cut off Burruchaga’s charge on the German goal. It was breathtaking to see the speed, power & focus of Briegel as he sought to cut of the danger but not as beautiful or creative as Maradonas through ball & Burruchagas perfect excecution of his goal. Alas for the Germans, the football beat the man & always will if the players are skilful enough.
England has players who are skilful enough but they are never allowed to express their skills inthe same way as the Spanish do for instance.
Until the mentality is changed England will always struggle to win major trophies Internationally.
Slippery Jim said | July 1st 2008 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
“Some of the kids developed very close Brazilian style control of the tennis ball ,with the tricks you see on the Copacabana. So the finer skills of football as per “Fozzie football”were known in Sheffield at least at an early age.
Unfortunately the reality of Senior football outside school was more brutal. Physicality,stamina,athleticism replaced the sublime skills of the schoolyard. So (& this is from factual experience) I knew several quick sublime, skilful with the tennis ball players, quick, but small, who dropped out ,purely because they were physically intimidated by the players practicing the more English “Christian muscalanity” style of football.”
Towser, a genuinely interesting comment from an English perspective.
Sunil Menon said | July 1st 2008 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
Good comments indeed Towser. Sir Stanley Matthews (from the black and white footage I’ve seen) is certainly one of the best English players too, his technical ability was outstanding, and is the type of player England desperately need in a period of time such as this one.
Slippery yet again your ability to miss information and your ability to take the points only you require truly astounds me. The article did point out BOTH strengths and weaknesses of both Lampard and Gerrard, and the summation was that Lampard was a thinking man’s choice, whilst Gerrard was the passionate fans choice. Should your eyes have the ability to see, and your hand the ability to take the mouse and scroll down the page, you will see that a majority of fans said they would pick Gerrard hands down. The article also says Lampard ‘when he is playing well’ implying that he does not always play to the same standard as Gerrard, a fact that people who understand and are knowledgable about Football like myself concur with.
Anyway our discussion is pointless, for this time next year, Lampard will be a finished force. Deco’s arrival at Chelski means that he and Ballack will take the midfield role’s (surely you cannot tell me Fat Frank is better than Deco or Ballack?) and young Franky boy will either be off to Inter for a measly £7m (honestly I think Jose has paid more for a pair of shoes then he will for Franky) or sit and rot on the bench where he deserves.
Slippery Jim said | July 8th 2008 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
“many goals are courtesy of..deflected free kicks”
Just re-found this interesting link relating to Lampard’s ACTUAL deflected goal stats for Chelsea:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2006/oct/18/theknowledge.sport
“only six of his 73 goals for Chelsea have been deflected…it would seem that Lampard’s deflected glory is not as great as the nation’s many Frankophobes would have you believe.”
Yes, a mere 6.7% are deflections. Even if we were to unfairly subract ALL deflected goals scored by Lampard over this period, (and rather optimistically ignored any deflected goals scored by Gerrard), Lampard would have a tally of 63 goals, and Gerrard only 52 for their respective clubs.
Just as icing on the cake for anyone still visiting this blog, here is a dandy Lampard-themed quiz for you to test your knowledge:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/quiz/2008/jul/06/1
Sunil Menon said | July 9th 2008 @ 1:02am | Report comment
Jim. This was published in October 2006. Clearly in that time our Fat Friend has scored plenty more of these deflected and crap goals and the percentages you so kindly list would have changed. Anyway the main point of the Gerrard vs Lampard debate is not who scores most goals, it is clearly Lampard because he does not have the balls or the engine to run back and lay a tackle, it is who is the more complete, consistent, and class player. Gerrard has all 3 of these C’s…Lampard has one ‘C’ its not on the list and the last letter is ‘T’ you figure out the rest
Slippery Jim said | July 9th 2008 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
*sigh* Sunil, Lampard was found via cardiovascular testing to be the fittest player in the England squad. Fitter than even your precious Stevie Me. So perhaps the comments about girth are better directed at players to whom it actually applies.
Stick your head in the sand all you want, but clearly, scientifically (as opposed to anecdotaly) Lampard has a better “engine” than any other England player, and this is a fact for which there is abundant proof.
Mathemetically scores more goals no matter what excuses you have for Stevie Me’s shortfall in comparison, and no matter how you crunch the numbers. Lampard is fitter, tackles, runs box to box. Was voted second best player in the World and Europe, next to Ronaldinho by coaches and professional players with far more knowledge and less bias than yourself. Has Stevie Me ever been voted in the top three in the world?
Save the “Fat Frank” jibes for the hate-filled West Ham supporters, they do you no credit.
Sunil Menon said | July 9th 2008 @ 9:11pm | Report comment
Er yeh I have just googled like a million things relating to Frank Lampard and fitness and the best results seem to be regarding pie eating contests *thumbs up* Even if young Fatty should be the fittest, this ‘Stevie Me’ you speak of has more talent in his little toe then the Fat penalty taking/ tap in specialist.
Great that he was voted second best player in the world, that was three years ago. Has he been in the EPL team of the year for the last 5 years running? Ever been voted the Champions League MVP? Perhaps voted Under 23 player of the year in his time? Nope. Please. So Lumpyard had one good season of tapping a ball in from 10m and scoring deflected free kicks or whatever it is he supposedly does on the football field. ANY PERSON WITH A FOOTBALL BRAIN WILL TELL U LAMPARD IS SHITE!!!!! He is not consistent, has no leadership quality, had 30+ shots in the 06 World Cup and didn’t score once, and has not laid a hard tackle in his life. Lets put this debate on pause, wait for the season to start..see if he even MAKES the first XI at Chelsea or gets shipped off for $10 to Inter (where he will sit on the bench after 2 games anyway) and watch his England career slide into slush, as Gerrard, Barry and Hargreaves take over
Slippery Jim said | July 10th 2008 @ 11:43am | Report comment
ANY PERSON WITH A FOOTBALL BRAIN WILL TELL U LAMPARD IS SHITE!!!!!
Please refer to my post Slippery Jim said | June 26th 2008 @ 11:07am
You are saying that Ronaldinho doesn’t have a football brain. Get a grip son.
Nothing Steven Gerrard has done has even come close to being voted runner up for world or even European player of the year.
Nor has Steven Gerrard been voted England Fan’s player of the year. Lampard has, for two consecutive years.
If you still want to be fly against reason due to your Liverpool bias and insist that Lampard’s goals are all deflections, I can only quote Martin Samuel of The Times who sarcastically put it: “what a lucky boy he must be: 83 deflections since August 2003″.
Of course, since Martin Samuel made that comment, the total goals Lampard has scored since 2003 is now well over 100 and counting…and that is just at club level. Steven Gerrard is barely three quarters of the way to achieving the same goal tally, despite the fact that the Liverpool squad is built around him.
Slippery Jim said | July 10th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
“has he been in the EPL team of the year for the last 5 years running?”
Oh, I forgot to answer this question.
Yes he has, twice…keep googling, Sunil, the truth is bound to penetrate eventually after you get off those tabloid pages and Scouser fan sites and get to some cold hard facts
Sunil Menon said | July 10th 2008 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Oh dear Slippery, it appears you have kindly missed out on more valuable information regarding Steven Gerrard MBE, and instead focussed your attention to much on Frank Lampard Jr, England’s greatest Pie Eater.
Mr Gerrard has been voted fans player of the year in 2007 in case you missed that, his MBE came for his outstanding contributions to Football notably in the FA Cup Final 06 and CL final 05, (in case you missed it he scored a 25m belter to level the scores in the FA Cup final, that is what we call a ’shot on target’, no deflection to speak of
) he has also been nominated for FIFA player of the year 05-07. At the risk of sounding like a broken, but correct record, PFA team of the year for the past 5 years, UEFA team of the year 04-05, 05-06,06-07 and something you have missed, the FANS PLAYER OF THE YEAR 2000 -2002, and players player of the year 05-06! My godfather that is a whole lot of medals to put in the pool room
So let’s see Mr Slippery, he has the endorsement of Kaka, one of the world’s best. He has the endorsement of UEFA, the fans of English football, the English Government, FIFA, UEFA, and fellow English players, this is not just on one occasion, or for one season, or for scoring a Speight of shite goals or playing well in a team that wins consistently (but in a very boring manner)
These awards date back to 2000, for eight years, for eight years Steven Gerrard has been one the premier players in the world, English fans the world over will pick him over Frank, who can play well in a good team, but would not show a shadow of inspiration if the chips were down, why isn’t he being considered for the English captaincy? Because of this sheer fact. Gerrard does not edge it over Lampard, he smashes him, which of the two has scored in an FA cup final, a CL final and a World Cup match? Correct! Gerrard is a big game player, a man of the hour, the one who will seize the day, and playing for England requires this type of inspiration
Shut your mouth, I’ve done my research, say what you like about Lampard being ’statically’ better or whatever, he does not do the tracking back, the passing, the tackling, the inspiring or have an ounce of the leadership Gerrard has.
PommyAussie said | July 10th 2008 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
I’ve been reading your little disagreement for a while now. I’m English and if i had the straight choice of Lampard and Gerrard then i’d chose Gerrard for his leadership qualities, but Lampard is no mug. Don’t be fooled into thinking he is, he more than holds his own in the Champs League and the EPL (better than most).
I don’t agree with the notion that his goals are deflections and penalties, that simply isn’t true (judging on the stats i’ve seen) and so what if they were, a goal is a goal, good on him for being in the right place at the right time….isn’t that a sign of a good player? I bet any self respecting A-League team or the Socceroos would love it if he was Aussie. (Just syaing that as this is an Aussie website).
As for Jose only offering 7 million quid that isn’t due to how good or bad he thinks he is it because he has one year on his contract and he’s forcing Chelsea’s hand.
Millster said | July 10th 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
This argument is a joke, and only about each person’s preferred player. I’d take to the park quite happily with either, and for that matter be happy with either taking Aussie nationality and becoming a Socceroo. Less so John Terry who is a dogged little bugger, but in no way a modern footballer.
More seriously, behind this surface debate is the issue that the EPL has become so big in marketing terms as to be totally inflated perceptually compared to other leagues. These guy’s we’re talking of are pretty much all we see so they are built up over other equally worthy players from other leagues. Also, as we’re so exposed to the British club game, we also get drawn in by proxy to the English national team…
Then again, I can’t talk in terms of my preferred league and country. Based on their Euro 2008 performance, Les Bleus may just as well not have bothered qualifying either
Slippery Jim said | July 10th 2008 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Sunil, I have nothing against Gerrard, I think he is a fine player, as I have already said to you, I know about the MBE, it is lovely that the queen fancies him as well. If I may just add to that the the people’s princess, Lady Di was actually a Chelsea supporter
Gerrard, it must be said, also scores from deflections, here are three random examples:
http://www.oleole.com/blogs/football-football-and-more-football/posts/lucky-number-8
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/4501105.stm
http://www.4thegame.com/features/feature/159027/.html (right down the bottom of page)
I’m not sure how much you actually follow football, since Lampard scored in the last UEFA Champions League final against Man Utd…there is far more to his game than just goals, as shown by his assist in a lovely one-two move with Drogba to win the FA Cup Final.
I believe I have already explained that Lampard (22) has scored more goals for England than Gerrard (14).
Gerrard’s goal shortfall is also evident at Stamford Bridge, where he has never scored a goal.
He has also been voted England Fan’s player of the year more than Gerrard, which disproves your hopeful “English fans the world over will pick him over Frank” assertion.
As PommyAussie has said, transfer prices are no real indication of player talent, however it bears mentioning that Lampard is currently on an incredible £120,000 a week salary at CFC, which will go up next season, and Inter have offered to better that wage, which will make him one of the highest payed footballers on the planet. I doubt any club would pay that much for someone who wasn’t world class.
You show your lack of class once again by telling me to “shut your mouth”, very odd for someone who invites comment by writing a blog article.
What is most Ironic is that our discussion mereley highlights the talent and value both of Gerrard and Lampard, which kind of puts paid to the whole “England – a Class Below” theory, wouldn’t you say?
westy said | July 10th 2008 @ 5:00pm | Report comment
Towser…. although I acknowledge much of what you say I am uncomfortable with your comparison to Spain. If there is one major European power that have underperformed time and again on the international stage it is Espania. Their lack of silverware skills or not speaks for itself. One campaign does not make up for decades of underachievement relative to the strength of their players and home league.Spain’s poor football history on the internatinal plane speaks for itself. Hopefully Spain has entered a new era .
Slippery Jim said | July 10th 2008 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
Wow – I’m amazed that my comment on Tuesday (admittedly a cheap attempt to get the last word, in retrospect) has applied the defibrillators to what I had assumed an otherwise dead and buried blog!
Despite our differences, Sunil, I actually do appreciate that your main piece was well written, if not your subsequent comments, and have enjoyed our tussle.
I look forward to your next piece, no doubt deriding another national team.
Can I suggest Holland as a likely target? Fizzle out after a bright start and all that…
Towser said | July 10th 2008 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
Westy
Perhaps Spain is not the best example to emphasise the point I was making. But it was current & in front of my face so I ran with it. Long term Brazil would have been a better example.
Spain may have turned a corner as you state. Time will tell.
Regardless of comparisons the deficiencies of the English football system will remain until a different mindset is adopted.
westy said | July 10th 2008 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
Towser…agree……play a robot……leave Hoddle/Barnes on sideline……My god they even did it it 66.
Sunil said | July 11th 2008 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Indeed Slippery this blog was dead and very much buried, cheers for resussitating it! Good to lock horns with a fellow Football nut, will no doubt catch you on here some other time, I shall steer clear of national teams for now, perhaps look at European Football as a whole