By Spiro Zavos
September 1st 2008 @ 7:13am
Dire thoughts on a massacre at Johannesburg
The Springboks destruction of the Wallabies was the sort of defeat that gives massacres a bad name. This was a thrashing, a walloping and a devastation.
Go through the thesaurus to find all the words for a massacre - a general slaughter, utter defeat, destruction and so on - and you get a feel for what happened at the citadel of Afrikaner rugby pride and power, Coca-Cola (formerly Ellis) Park in Johannesburg.
The Springboks were the ferocious mongols of Ghengis Khan: and the Wallabies were the hapless villagers put to the sword and fire with a vengeance and brutality.
In the manner of wiping away the blood from a victim, lets get some of the statistics out of the way.
This was the greatest margin of defeat for a Wallaby side, 45 points in arrears, since the team started playing Test rugby in 1899.
It was the second-largest points total conceded since that awful day in 1997 at Pretoria when the Springboks ran riot and scored a total of 61 points to 22.
The Wallabies have now won one of 9 Tests at Johannesburg. The one and only victory was in 1963 when John Thornett side, with the wonderful lineout leaping of Rob Heming, defeated the Springboks. This victory followed a victory in the Test before. Thornett’s side remains the Australian team to win two Tests in succession in South Africa against the Springboks.
When things go as badly wrong as this, it’s because everything goes wrong.
The five replacements to the winning team at Durban weakened the side, rather than strengthened it with new energy.
A couple of the replacements, for Daniel Vickerman and Berrick Barnes, were forced on Robbie Deans. The dropping of Stephen Moore as hooker, bringing in Matt Dunning to start in the front row and playing Phil Waugh ahead of George Smith were own goals scored by the Wallaby coach.
Dunning was substituted after 20 minutes and one would think that after Brisbane his Wallaby career is over.
Waugh showed once again that he is too small and just not a good enough player, especially at the linking game with his running and passing, to be a starter in Test rugby. Like Dunning, you would think that Waugh’s career as a Wallaby is coming to an end and some of the young loosies from the Western Force will be brought into the squad for the November tour.
The Wallaby lineout held up well, especially on the Springboks ball. Victor Matfield, usually so dominant, lost a number of lineouts.
And the Wallaby scrum, aside from a crucial scrum on its tryline when the side was leading 3 - 0 that the Springboks demolished, was adequate.
The Wallabies also did well enough in the rucks and mauls, especially when George Smith came on, to have enough ball to do well in general play.
The experiment with Timana Tahu, though, was a desperate failure. He started well with a long flat pass out to Lote Tuqiri’s wing but it was downhill all the way after that. He seemed to have no idea about defence and for the first time in years the Wallabies were being outflanked easily virtually every time the Springboks ran the ball through the backs.
Rugby league tragics are going to be angry at what I say next, so if you don’t want to read the truth drop down a couple of paragraphs. The truth is this: the days when rugby league greats like Rod Reddy could help the Wallabies win a Rugby World Cup (1991, in fact) by teaching them RL tackling methods and systems are long gone. The rugby league players of today just do not have the tackling nous of their rugby union counterparts, when they play rugby union.
We saw this with Wendell Sailor, often with Lote Tuqiri, always with Mat Rogers and now with Tahu. He reminded me of Andy Farrell’s efforts for England at inside centre a couple of years ago, especially when the Irish centres ran riot - rather like the Springboks on Saturday - with Farrell making all the wrong defensive choices (like Tahu).
Perhaps even more similiar was the case of Henry Paul who was hooked from the side on his debut at inside centre for England against Australia after about 20 minutes of being exposed defensively by the Wallaby centres. Tahu lasted 53 minutes, about half an hour too long.
Ryan Cross, a rugby league player admittedly but a former Australian Schoolboys rugby union player, made an immediate difference when he came on.
I think the Timana Tahu experiment is over for the time being and Deans will have to work out a centre combination of Stirling Mortlock-Ryan Cross for the crucial Brisbane Test against the All Blacks.
Also over, surely, is the fancy of playing Adam Ashley-Cooper ahead of Drew Mitchell at fullback. Ashley Cooper was too often out of position. His kicking was poor. His following up was even worse. There was a big improvement in the way the Wallabies handled the long kicking game of the Springboks when Mitchell came on. But by then, as Rex Mossop used to say: ‘Hang up your glasses. The horse has bolted.’
The Wallabies were tactically inept. Early on in the game they tried to run the ball in confused and confined circumstances from inside their own 22. The result was turnover after turnover, especially from bad handling, which got worse as the players tired rapidly. The Springboks exploited Tahu’s ineptitude at reading back plays, and the points piled on.
Of all the major rugby grounds in the world, with the exception of Loftus Versfeld in Pretoria, Coca-Cola Park at Johannsburg is the worst ground in the world to try and run the ball inside your 22. Because of the altitude of the high veldt the ball travels much further than at sea level. So you get field position very easily by belting the ball downfield, and you hope that the opposition is stupid enough to try to run it back at you - which the Wallabies did.
When they did try to counter-attack with the kick-and-chase game they kicked far too deep, and there was no chase, until Mitchell came on to replace Ashley-Cooper.
If you watch the All Blacks their kick-and-chase game in their last two Tests was very successful because the winger positioned himself beside the fullback and ran on as soon as the ball was kicked to put pressure on the catcher. The Wallabies did not do this. Tuqiri is actually very good in the air. But where was his chase? He’s always complaining about not getting enough ball and so on. But he is a lazy player. Forget about his handling mistakes. He does very little work off the ball, particularly on the kick-chase game, and the Wallabies are at a disadvantage because of this.
It seemed to me that the difficulties of playing at altitude got to the Wallabies very early on in the game. After one early long sequence of play you could hear Matfield in his high-pitched voice shouting as the referee NZer Bryce Lawrence, ‘The Wallabies are faking injuries.’ There was a leaden-footed aspect to the play of the Wallabies that suggested that they were feeling the pressure of the lack of oxygen to their lungs and couldn’t get their second wind.
This brings us to the matter of how visiting teams should deal with having to play at altitude. The theory that works best, according to people who should know, is that you spend as long as you can at the altitude and acclimatise to it, a week before the Test if possible: or you go up as late as possible, the day before the Test, if possible.
Several days at altitude, apparently, leaves you in the worst possible position of a long exposure to the thin air but not enough time to acclimatise. This is what the Wallabies did. And the result was the massacre.
Deans now has the record of the first win in South Africa by the Wallabies in 8 years, and the worst defeat (in terms of a points-margin) in 109 years. Rooster one day, it seems, feather duster the next.
The Test in Brisbane against the All Blacks for the 2008 Tri-Nations championship now looms as a huge challenge for the Wallabies. Two slightly hopeful aspects, one short term and the other long term, emerge from all the - justifiable - doom, gloom and recriminations.
First, the short term message is that a number of the players starting on Saturday can’t be starters against the All Blacks. So selection mistakes should not occur for the next Test. And you would think, too, that the game plan for the side would be more appropriate to the skill level of the side.
Second, the long term message is that teams can recover from massacres. The Springboks came back from two comprehensive losses to score some marvellous tries and win one of their great Test victories.
Also, Rod Macqueen, as the new coach, took 13 of the Wallabies involved in the massacre at Pretoria in 1997 to a famous RWC triumph in 1999.
Robbie Deans and the Wallabies trying together the body and soul of the Wallabies after the Johannesburg massacre should take note of this splendid mantra: ‘The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.’
Free Email updates:
Our daily emails are only sent if there is content for the sport or that author. You can subscribe to multiple daily emails; or get the daily Roar email with all our content in it. We value privacy. More...
(200)
Frank O'Keeffe said | September 1st 2008 @ 7:44am | Report comment
What more can somebody say?
I’ll only add that:
“The one and only victory was in 1963 when John Thornett side, with the wonderful lineout leaping of Rob Heming, defeated the Springboks.”
That’s the reason why I put Rob Heming in my all-time Wallabies side. Everybody picks Eales, but who to partner him in the second row? There’s about five other names that could be mentioned, but Heming gets it for me because he was so crucial for the Wallabies in such a significant series against a country that’s renowned for their dominance in the set pieces.
On reflection, when you consider the massacre that was last weekend’s game, the significance of what the ‘63 Wallabies achieved shouldn’t be understated. The Wallabies effort last weekend illuminates the efforts of Rob Heming.
Benjamin said | September 1st 2008 @ 7:46am | Report comment
Spiro, the difference between Tahu and Cross is that Cross has two seasons of S14 under his belt. Tahu has a handful of games at inside centre. It was a bizarre decision for Deans to play him and frankly I feel sorry for him. It was also bizarre that Deans elected to play a gameplan that would suit the Boks down to the ground. If you have won your games by front-on aggression and clever, simple play why decide to forego that and pick a team, and also a bench, built for running in the environment least suited to it? I am perplexed that Deans decided against kicking reinforcements. Perplexed. In sport you are only as good as your last game and now Australia have an extended period to contend with their mental demons prior to the Brisbane meet. It is up to them to decide if they are on the up or not.
Regarding Dunning he can’t be dropped at this point. Who else is there? He has utility value and also experience. If Baxter were to get injured then Alexander or Robinson would have to contend with Woodock, and that’s no good for anyone… except perhaps Woodcock. Deans also faces the issue of dropping TPN. Until he can start regularly for NSW even his bench position is contentious. And what to do at fullback? Obviously the highveld offers a different kicking opportunity from Brisbane but AAC simply is not an international fullback. Latham would have had a field day on Saturday. At the moment I’m inclined to think that this is a more glass half-empty situation. Going into Australia’s most important test in years the front row is again under pressure, there are injury issues, there are no specialist full backs in the squad and the team has just got a shellacking. It will take a lot of work from Deans to ressurect this situation.
vincent said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:05am | Report comment
I can only hope this is a one off and heralds the start of a rebuild especially with some of the ‘old personell who were found to be inadequate. It was a woeful performance.
ohtani's jacket said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:18am | Report comment
The Wallabies have got to get better at backing up after a big win, particularly on the road, and even if they win in Brisbane, Deans will need to make some tough decisions about who has a future in a Wallabies jersey.
There was a lot of talk about Deans taking tired, jaded players and giving them a new lease on life, but I’m afraid the rugby man stuff has to be ditched and the hard decisions made. Deans is getting guys other people coached. He doesn’t have his own proteges like he did in Canterbury. And surprisingly, after years of watching Australian Super 14 sides and the Test side, overestimating the players he once coached against.
I doubt he wanted to step on any toes in his first six months, but here’s a guy who coached the Crusaders over the Waratahs in the Super 14 final and now he’s saying “here’s what I’d do if I was coaching the other guys” and it’s not really working.
They need a new game plan for Brisbane.
True Tah said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:20am | Report comment
Benjamin,
agree re: Cross and Tahu - I watched Tahu rip the NZ Maori a new one at the SFS, my question would be, are the Maori not that good?
I think you’re being a bit harsh on Ashely-Cooper, he played bad, but he wasn’t helped a lot, at times the Boks played as if they had 20 guys on the paddock.
I think Pocock needs to be included in the Wallaby tour, and Mitchell Chapman either…Waugh played well for the Tahs and led them well this year, but I don’t think he can take the step up to test match level.
Spiro,
agree 100% about the differences in defence between union and league, and in union, you need a far greater awareness of your position, something I think Wendell never got into his head, will Tahu be able to master this? He has the skills and the physique thats for sure.
Paul said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:21am | Report comment
One other factor that has to be considered in the post Eales years is that in big games, the Wallabies are the rugby world’s worst favourites.
Wallabies perform great without expectations or “nothing to lose”: examples being RWC 2003, and Sydney 2008, and Durban 2008 the perfect example since for the first time in ages they came to South Africa as true underdogs: playing a wounded World Champions. But every time a little bit of rightful expectation is mixed in: they turn to puffcakes. RWC 2007 Qf being on example, and Auckland and Jo’burg drumming home the fact. The first time this became obvious to me was just as bad… whichever year they played SA twice in Australia: 42-6 (or something) one week, the worst rugby test (17 something?) the week after.
And to fall over like that, to a record margin defeat, and be seen to giggle and laugh and shrug in the hotel afterwards just goes to prove what NZ and SA have always known, which is that there are only two truly proud rugby traditions in the world; and any periods of dignity from the “men of gold” - the Eales era being the greatest - are simply an anomaly.
Of course now they’ve lowered their standards to the basement, I expect a tough match in Brisbane, a la the 13-9 a few years back.
Jerry said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:28am | Report comment
“watched Tahu rip the NZ Maori a new one at the SFS, my question would be, are the Maori not that good?”
The mid-field for the NZ Maori in that game was Tamati Ellison (arguably the 3rd choice Hurricanes 2nd five) and Jason Kawau who hasn’t even been able to get a contract for the Highlanders the last couple of years - so yeah, the Maori were not that good.
Benjamin said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:31am | Report comment
Tah, I don’t think AAC is a bad player, but he is not an international 15.
That specific Maori team wasn’t that great,
Australia A: 1. Sekope Kepu 2. Sean Hardman* 3. Guy Shepherdson * 4. Al Campbell* 5. Peter Kimlin 6. Hugh McMeniman* 7. Julian Salvi 8. Richard Brown 9. Brett Sheehan* 10. Daniel Halangahu 11. Digby Ioane* 12. Timana Tahu 13. Morgan Turinui* (Captain) 14. Drew Mitchell* 15. Mark Gerrard*.
Replacements: 16. John Ulugia 17. Salesi Ma’afu 18. Van Humphries 19. Leroy Houston 20. Ben Lucas 21. Sam Norton-Knight* 22. Matt Carraro.
* denotes capped Wallaby
NZ Maori: 1. Jacob Ellison 2. Aled de Malmanche 3. Bronson Murray / Ben May, 4. Ross Filipo 5. Jason Eaton 6. Liam Messam (Co-captain) 7. Tanerau Latimer 8. Thomas Waldrom 9. Piri Weepu 10. Callum Bruce 11. Hosea Gear 12. Tamati Ellison (Co-captain) 13. Jason Kawau 14. Shannon Paku 15. Dwayne Sweeney.
Replacements: 16. Hikawera Elliot 17. Bronson Murray / Ben May 18. Hoani MacDonald 19. Scott Waldrom 20. Chris Smylie 21. Tim Bateman 22. Zar Lawrence.
Bob McGregor said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:50am | Report comment
Spiro,
I’m not about to give up on Waugh’s test career just yet. However, for some time I’ve thought he may cut the mustard as a hooker where his strength and courage could be useful. Any thoughts?
From your article it appears Walsh was not the Referee last Saturday - as I was advised by text. Is there a site one can check out such information prior to the game? I’m already shaking at the thought Kaplan will officiate in Brisbane.
Benjamin said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Bob, I couldn’t see the logic in promoting a man of his age to a postion where he would be equally undersized. Moore has been in excellent form and TNP has promise. It takes years to gain intimate knowledge of hooking. The only other players to have made the switch in recent years have been Thompson and Servat and they dwarf Waugh.
Justin said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Bob - no disrespect but considering Waugh can barely catch and pass how would he go throwing into the lineout even if he could manage the scrummaging (and thats a bloody big if)?
vincent said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Hi Bob,
I noticed that http://www.planet-rugby.com usually lists out officials to test games prior to the game
Nick (KIA) said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Tah/Benjamin
Re: Tahu
Agree Maori side not great - NZRU made strange choice in including them at expense of NZA, meant that a number of players who could have done with higher level competition in preparation for being replacements in ABs missed out (esp forwards like Tom Donnelly, Anthony Boric and Hayden Reid). Contributed to Dunedin loss to Boks.
Also, no one is doubting Tahu’s skill with ball in hand. He showed a couple of good touches on Sat. But as I and others pointed out prior to the game, was shown up on defence in the win over boks when he came on last week. Vs the Maori, Aus A were running riot, and the quality of the midfield attack against him, meant that he wasn’t tested on defence.
Statistically speaking, he’s likely to be like the rest of the league converts, Brad Thorn excepted, who never really figure out how to adjust their play to the new game in front of them. Defence is much different to league, you could see Tahu trying to double team the ball carrier all the time rather than take his man. Directly lead to at least one try.
I’d be pleased to be proven wrong, but as Benjamin/Spiro point out, give the bloke a chance to learn what to do and see if he’s up to it before lauding him. S14 will be good if he can break into the starting Tah’s centres. I don’t think that is necessarily certain at this point.
sheek said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Spiro,
In another thread, I suggested that the two heavy defeats in Auckland & Jo’Burg showed that this was still an ordinary team that had been coaxed by a canny coach to mostly play above itself.
The Wallabies will eventually improve, as Deans’ learns what the the team is capable of, & as better quality players come into the side. But for the moment, he has to make the best of what he’s got, which he has mostly been able to do.
The Link said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Spiro, any coincidence, as Mark Ella has pointed out, that this happens when John Muggleton is no longer defensive/assistant coach? I find it a bit strange that you leave him or Les Kiss out of any analysis.
eric said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Spiro, “the Wallaby lineout held up well”?!?
I’ll admit I nodded off occasionally, but I did hear Gordon Bray say that we had lost 7 of our own lineouts in a row.
I wouldn’t be so harsh on Tahu just yet. He might be better at outside centre.
Give AAC a bit of slack too. He has just come back from some weeks with a broken hand.
I am at a loss to explain how the Boks scored so many unopposed tries. Nokwe wasn’t touched until his fourth try!
One thing, the Wallabies didn’t defend well against the pass in tackles, leaving gaps for the runners, eg Bekker & Jacobs’ tries.
OldManEmu said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:46am | Report comment
I agree with most of what Spiro has written but I must take issue with two points he makes about Waugh and Dunning.
Phil Waugh will leave the Wallabies on his terms. Anyone that writes him off does so at their danger. I see a posting suggesting that Phil Waugh can barely catch and pass - that is probably not inaccurate so imagine how much Phil Waugh would have achieved in the game if he had good ball skills. One incident about Phil Waugh that for me defines the man. After Sydney Uni RUFC won the Sydney First Grade premiership in 2001 having been in the 99 and 2000 GFs there was a big party back to the Grandstand, Uni’s clubhouse. I’ve bailed the great man up to have a beer with him. Couldn’t get him to have a beer. I was staggered -”You’ve just won the comp mate” . For a battler like me who had been through the dark days of Uni in the mid 90’s it was incomprehensible. His reply ws something along the lines of “I’m in training for the November Tour”. Amazing. If Phil Waugh is dropped, then he will return.
Dunning should not be written off neither. Like Waugh I think he is a very determined footballer. He has been pilloried for a lot of his career, I think unfairly. This is not the forum to discuss international referee bias against the Wallabis at scrum time - a phenomena that I think has dogged the Wallabies since the aftermath of the RWC 2003 Final when the Poms whinged about Bill Young’s tactics, but my view is that Dunning is a good scrummager who continues to improve, is very good in the lineout, is an excellent player around the field, and a player who is popular with his team mates. Why drop him? And who would replace him?
Finally, I am not the least bit surprised by the flogging. The Springboks are proud people - they were never going to cop the criticism lying down. And a prediction for the Brisbane test - the Wallabies in a whale of a game that will go down as one the greatest tests of all time.
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:50am | Report comment
No doubt that Deans is a better coach than Jones or Connolly, however how much better.
So far he has marginally improved the performances in terms of results.
Yes we had our first away win in SA for years. The question is that could of been more due to SA and PDV being poor than Deans and Wallabies being good.
We always had a good home record.
The real test will be the NH tour.
I had stated that we would be poor with only 1 real kicker in Giteau and at altitide it really hurt us. This comes down to selections.
Tahu needs another season at 12 at S14 level.
Burgess is sorely needed. The scrum we were turned over on , it was clear the boks pushed off the mark way too early, a better scrumhalf would not have fed the ball whilst it was going backwards. He would of done a Gregan and held the ball up and said the scrum is not steady sir.
McMeniman did ok I do not see why he should be dropped.
That was Mortlock’s worst game I have ever seen. A bit early to say his career is over, people of short memories, he has had a couple of blinders this season, more than can be said of the other backs.
For Brisbane, Moore in, Baxter in, Smith in, Burgess in, Cross in, Mitchell in.
Benjamin said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Good point about the Maori, Nick.
LeftArmSpinner said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Spiro, We are seeing the cleverness of the concept of the Roar in its full glory!!! A brilliant article with rapid fire, observations from passionate supporters. In the meantime, the mainstream are going with bland, unimaginative and lightweight, one dimensional AAP! ROAR!
Now to the rugby, yes, a disaster by reference to the scoreline, and by the performance of several Wallabies, though I don’t include Tahu in this. More later.
But, it is darkest just before the dawn. We learnt a lot, much of it old lessons previously ignored and Deans now has a mandate to renew the team. It is over for Dunning and Waugh (the invisible man). Mortlock was missing for most of the game, particularly in defence. He provided no leadership, no direction, particularly as they repeatedly stood in the in goal waiting for conversions to be missed!!
AAC actively chose to run backwards after his kicks, waiting for the reply. The alternative is to kick it so that they can’t return it. Kick chasers and better kicks followed by aggressive tackles and counterrucking! He was clearly short of a run and might have been better served by coming back through the bench. Also, he was not seen running the ball at all, and I had thought that that was why he was in the team!
Tahu: I disagree with Spiro about Tahu. On numerous occasions, the Boks swept the ball to the left after strong driving play by their forwards. Many of these same forwards then popped up out wide whlie their Wallabies brethren were buried at the bottom of the ruck and/or sucking in big ones for deear life. Tahu was presented with 2 and 3 man overlaps outside and no cover defence. There was nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying to close off the attack by coming up AND in. He was still going hard at it, in cover defence, getting back to try to stop Nokwe’s 4th try.
As regards the Wallabies tactics, I thought they looked good initially, crisp, good at the breakdown, organised in attack but in the 15th minute, there was a sustained period of Wallaby attack, repelled by the Boks, and ending with a 70 metre clearing kick to touch. I suspect that, with lungs burning, the Wallabies mentally surrendered while the Boks sensed this and went up a gear. Then, even more oxygen deprived, they lost the plot with suicidal attacks in their 22.
Positioning the winger just behind the FB and on the fly chasing the kick to pressure the catcher and put teammates onside is rugby 101. Didn’t happen!!!
I can only agree with Spiro about Tuqiri and his laziness. A summary of the 2008 Tuqiri is, lazy, not quick enough for a winger, average kicker, until recently, good in the air, good tackler but not last Saturday. Hmm, note to Dingo, drop Tuqiri: Less talk and more action.
So, Dunning, Waugh, Mortlock, Tuqiri and of course, Cordingley to go after the Brisbane game. In comes a real tight head prop, Pocock, Cross, Turner and Burgess. Giteau goes to Captain!
David Glesson said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:19am | Report comment
the defence has gone to sh*t since Deans arrived. The whole ten years John Muggleton was doing it we were arguably the best defenders in world rugby. Not anymore and even in the Sydney Bled we looked sh*te and would have more tries scored against if the ABs handling wasnt so crap. Bring back Muggo the Mungo!!!
Jerry said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Left Arm - Tahu messed up on first phase defence also. Most notably when he came in on De Villiers (and missed the tackle) leading to Jacobs clean break and try. Also, blaming altitude is a bit lame.
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Horwill should be captain IMO.
chas said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Spiro:
Your anti-League bias is showing through. Was it not John Muggleton and Les Kiss, two RL luminaries, who were responsible for the Waratah’s and Wallabies’ great defences through the glory days? Before professionalism Mark Ella and his brothers, together with Tim Horan, Michael O’Connor and David Campese and numerous others won their reputations when RU players preferred not to tackle. O’Connor learnt this skill when he became a Leaguie. Mark Ella and his mates would not star ro the degree they did if they played today.
To play Tahu at inside centre. a position he never played in League, was demonstrably stupid. In that Maori game he touched the ball five times and was playing against third rate opposition. He may have more knowledge about defence than all of the Wallaby coaching staff combined. He won’t express this, though.
If we are honest we would have to admit that the Wallabies are a ragtag collection of second grade leaguies, gold-diggers (Tahu and Tuqiri) and wannabees from private schools. The depth of OZ Union is worrying. Who replaces Dunning?
Could you imagine an Oz League’s backline selected with Sheehan, Giteau, Barnes, Mortlock (who never passes), a lazy Tuqiri (who is waiting for his next payday), and the tackling machine, Drew Mitchell?
Mitch O said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:58am | Report comment
That was a disgraceful Wallabies performance. The one positive is that sort of a hiding has a team questioning every aspect of its game. How you can rebuild fundamental confidence (not captains rhetoric that Mortlock’s gushed about in the build up to other must wins) over the next two weeks I don’t know, doubt it can be done.
Yes Spiro, Macqueen did take a group of players forward from a similar result but too many critical players in this side are in the twilight of their careers. By contrast the Boks look like a team with plenty of time to build for the next WC.
Hoy said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Mortlock had an absolute barry of a game.
League backs are not great defenders. Fullstop. You only have to watch a game of league to see that. And I am not talking about the tackling, although Tahu did fall off a few. I am talking about reading the game. Leagies come in off their man, they don’t trust the inside player, they rush up to put on a hit etc. Tahu was guilty of all of these things.
Hugh McMeniman was slowing the rot when he got aggravated but there was noone helping. I am not sure what it was, but it seemed that the whole team had forgotten how to hit in a tackle and make the tackle count.
I also noticed AAC kicking then not chasing his own kicks. The kick chase was poor all game from the Wallabies. Even once after a kick off, then there should have been a solid chase, there was time for the Boks to set a maul and still wait for the Wallabies to get there. No urgency whatsoever.
It seems the Wallabies are a little prone to turning off completely this year. Two hidings so far. Lets hope for no more.
Jim Boyce said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:10am | Report comment
Spiro - Great piece and what makes ” The Roar” compulsive reading.
Firstly on playing at altitude at Ellis Park ( We will be calling “Lords” ,Hungry Jacks Oval” next) I thought they should have gone from Durban on Sunday morning. Beside the breathing which is just as much psychological as physical, the ball does different things and the game consequently has a different shape. The Boks played the stadium to the letter, we looked as if we thought it was Durban. Re 1963, some people forget the field goal by Terry Casey from the 10 yard line, we only won 11-9. The interesting thing about that tour was that we played 2 matches before there and had a cumulative training time of about 15 days. The majority of the Wallaby backline in 2008 had very little time there.
Secondly, the 2008 Wallaby captain went missing. When you think of McCaw, Smit at Dunedin and Matfield , there is a pretty large gap and no-one of the stature of Eales. The Wallabies need a forwards captain urgently and not one where you pass the black armband midway through the second half.
Thirdly, Bray did make the comment half way through the second half that we had not won a lineout since 20 minutes into the first half, which presumably was right. I am not a fan of Bray’s commentary as it seems he has a data base beside his microphone and is intent in squeezing every scintilla out of it. Unfortunately Wallaby throwers have now earned a reputation of being off course. I thought he was hard done by on some occasions.
Lastly some of the Bok backs are growing in confidence and starting to show real class. The winger was in the right position at the right time but the guy who I thought had a great game was the Full-Back. The move he put on Tahu for the first try was a beauty.
Deans is capable of lifting this team but without a captain like McCaw at the Crusaders, he will struggle. No-one said his job was going to be easy and this is where the sea change that he is capable of bringing to Australian rugby will be seen to be a longer process than the arrival of the messiah. The Wallabies have been carrying serious baggage for a long time eg Front Row, Captain, Backline Back 3. Deans got overconfident after Durban and made some strange selections that bit him. He now has to make sure he sees what is in front of him.
Great article Spiro and all the contributors of which your humble self is one. Jim Boyce
LeftArmSpinner said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:13am | Report comment
jerry, My apologies. I was not making excuses, but giving possible explanations. The Boks murdered us with great rugby and they breathed the same thin air.
I really hate those that never accept a defeat, no matter what the reasons are!!! All praise to the Boks. Its a very big back row!!!! and Spies had a blinder, almost like he had taken off his invisibility cloak!!
As for Big Kev being Captain, I’m all for that. As a proposed Giteau, I thought, geez, we are loading him up with so much, playmaker, goalkicker, gen play kicker, senior player and now captain. Big Kev would be great!!!!
LeftArmSpinner said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:14am | Report comment
oh, and By the way, Palu, he must have mistakenly picked up and worn Spies Invisibility cloak!!!! or does he have one of his own, specially made for when he plays for the Wallabies.
vincent said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:15am | Report comment
It was probably too late but I noticed that once Sheehan and George Smith came in the phase play was more structured and there was a bit more go forward. At one point there was George Smith diving on the ball on the ground a basic and necessary skill to retain possession that no one seemed to be excecuting.
Any takes about George Smith as a captain?
LeftArmSpinner said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Jim, With you all the way. who do you bring in:
To the back three? Mitchell (15), Turner and give Hynes the benefit of previous good performances?
13, Cross?
Brown for Palu?
Dexter William said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:24am | Report comment
All this talk of Deans making selection errors is ridiculous.
If at the start of the 3N, if we were given the result that we are still in for the chance of winning the 3N at home, we would have been more than happy to have taken it.
Deans has somehow got a team of pretty average players to somehow come up with several good wins against the adds. Yes we have lost two big games, but so has the ABs and and Boks.
Even with this result, I doubt if anyone dare front up and say Connelly and Jones are going to be better. Deans is the best bet by a long shot. Please remember that we have very little depth after we field the best 15. Can’t polish turd.
Let’s stop the excuse of high attitude. Not all S Africans leave in high altitude and have better lung capacity. As much as the Wallabies are sucking in air, the Boks (most of them) are too. We just played a “I don’t want to be there” game.
Tactically, we lost because we kicked to the bald headed FB who loves running and kicking the ball back with interest. Also our kick chase game was a joke, especially AAC. We have had two games in a row where our kick chase has been dreadful, just don’t understand why Deans can’t fix it. It is such a simple principle. If you chose to kick, you must chase after the it.
The thing that I do not like about the ELV is the continuous kicking from end to end.
Tuiri goes back into running like a crab. Give him his last warning and and get rid of him. Problem is who is there? Turner?
As for Mortlock losing it. You guys must be joking. He is our go to man in the team and is playing very well. He is doing a wonderful job teaming with Cross and Barnes lately and unfortunately Tahu is a bridge too far.
Posters like Link and Oldmanemu are typical posters that support players and coaches who they have personal association with. Please stop politics and stay open for forum discussions. Stop this, I had a beer with him and I tell you, he is one hardworking dedicate fella. Link, it seems that you are waiting for the fall just so that you can tell us: I told you so. Stop it.
Sheek and Peter K, please keep up your posts.
stillmissit said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:28am | Report comment
The Link and Chas - you have a strong point regarding Muggleton and Les Kiss. The key to these guys is that they came onboard from a time when League had great defence and Union didnt. Not only did they bring in new structures that gave the Wallabies 2 world cups but they adapted to Union over time. Les Kiss should have been in as the Wallabies defensive coach if they couldn’t live with Muggleton anymore.
These 2 guys in my opinion have been the greatest league imports ever!
stillmissit said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:32am | Report comment
Vincent - I think we should play Sheehan whenever we play the Boks. His agressive style stands up well against the Boks and that was obvious on Sat when he came on. He is very hard to intimidate and get over. I don’t think his game is good enough to take the role off Burgess but for the Boks he is great.
vincent said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Dexter I agree with your line of thought, we know this Wallaby team is capable, its just that on the day they played like they were not interested, going through the motions re: Dexter ‘I don’t wan to be there’), I don’t think they can say they gave their best. Again I agree with Dexter, tactics, execution and hunger was just not there on the day. I dare say that I am suspicios that because this game had no real outcome either to the tri nations or even to the Mandela Cup they had one eye on the Brisbane Game against the All Blacks in a fortnight.
old goalie said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:40am | Report comment
Paul - so true - “just goes to prove what NZ and SA have always known, which is that there are only two truly proud rugby traditions in the world; and any periods of dignity from the “men of gold” - the Eales era being the greatest - are simply an anomaly.”
Whenever the Wallabies have enjoyed a successful and sustained period of rugby dominance it was due in large part to the brains on the paddock
Think Farr-Jones, Lynagh, Larkham, Burke, Eales, Wilson, Foley, Roebuck et al
These were not only good rugby players, but intelligent players
Brains are sadly lacking now
How many of our current back line could you say were as smart as Farr-Jones?
And how many forwards could you say are as smart as Foley?
It looks as though there’s not a lot of thinking go on out there, particularly from the Captain, who can make some damaging charges occassionally but lacks the inspiration and smarts required to lead his team out of a hole
Polota-nau was woeful - it’s not hard throwing into a lineout and when you practise it as many times a day as he must, there are no excuses. And he played Hooker for Aus. Schoolboys so it’s not like it’s a new skill to him. Imagine if at your place of work you kept making a simple mistake, all day everyday, over and over…
Buying dumb leagies isn’t the answer either (Tuqiri, Rogers, Sailor)
I hope Dingo clears the decks and takes a fresh, intelligent new team North to mould in his own image and return to play smart, stylish winning rugby - I’m getting way too old to stay up past midnight watching the Wallabies get smashed
LeftArmSpinner said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment
dexter, I’m in agreement with you, except for Mortlock. I’m not excusing anyone for altitude. Altitude in and of itself is not the problem. Its what happens to your mental processes and commitment and passion when you are gasping that is the telling factor. Wallabies went missing!!
Lets hope that Dingo does clear the decks, including a captain, as said before, Big Kev. Smart, plenty of ticker and will be around for the RWC in three years.
Darryl said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Spiro, I believe someone once said “good coaching is nearly all about good selection”, it’s time you got cricial at Deans. Don’t be scared!
Jerry said | September 1st 2008 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
“Smit at Dunedin”
I thought he was completely invisible. Didn’t spot him during the game at all. Not even in the warmups or when they announced the starting lineups and (baffingly) not even when they interviewed the Springbok captain after the game! He may as well have been back in South Africa nursing a groin injury for all the effect he had on that game.
Worlds Biggest said | September 1st 2008 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
I stated in the blog yesterday, the players mental state of mind has to be questioned going into that game. Were there heads thinking ahead to Brisbane ?. The Boks played well but I think they are an above average team at best at the moment. Clearly there are issues in the playing squad, two beltings in the Tri Nations backs that up. Dingo will have learned a hell of a lot about some players after Saturday. At last there are more people out there now admitting that Waugh just doesn’t add that much value. He is the annointed one for a lot of Tahs fans but while gutsy he is limited at Test Level now. I have always agreed with Spiro about Waugh. Tahu will learn from that and I think will become a good player. TPN throwing is woeful. Why don’t they look at him as a prop, he is extremely strong and would fill a much needed hole. So many things to rectify for Brisbane, I still think they can turn it around but it’s going to take all of Dingo’s tricks to get them up for it.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Where do you start? Well here’s my summation
Benjamin…You’re quite correct about TPN and one point I have often wondered. If TPN isn’t a starter for the Waratahs why is he in the Wallabies? TPN lineout throws were woeful and he needs more time to develop in the Super 14.
Perhaps we should apply the blame George Gregan rule to Jeremy Paul. Now I’m being cynically but…Do we blame Jeremy Paul for TPN lack of development as a player? Like some have done with George Gregan regarding the development of Australian halfbacks? Nonsense isn’t it Gentlemen, to blame one individual for a nation’s progress.
Ben…I also agree with your fair-minded observation of Tahu compared to Cross. Unlike Cross, he hasn’t played much tier 1 rugby and hasn’t settled in as a Wallabies 12 yet. Tahu needs time to develop however is such a talent that he has been given an early call up to the Wallabies. I was one who was pleased to see Tahu get a run and I hope Deans doesn’t give up on him and do a Coach Knuckles and banish him forever to save face. Deans could afford to start him as the match didn’t effect to Tri-Nations outcome. Only one team was playing for pride the other was just participating. I’m sure Deans didn’t expect to see the Wallabies get such a pounding.
While I’m not a great rugby league fan, I am often surprised at the public beatings the ex-league players receive and for that matter former Wallabies coach Eddie Jones and include Gregan. Do rugby fans forget that Jones, Tuqiri, Sailor and Rogers did get into the 2003 RWC final and only lost the game in extra time…While it was disappointing to lose; it was a great team effort.
I’m happy to defend Adam Ashley Cooper, he always chases his kicks; I was surprised he didn’t chase as many in the Highveld match. It looked to me like he was under instruction to stay back. I don’t agree with Spiro he was often out of position. He is a better player currently than the ever improving Drew Mitchell at fullback for now. Additionally Peter Hynes has now had 2 ordinary matches. Get Clyde Rathbone on the NH tour…
The Waratahs pack were ordinary at best…Dan Vickerman was greatly missed. I need to see the match again to see about Matt Dunning being replaced early. I can’t comment. And it looks like Waugh’s last tour…sadly he has only half a game at this level…
I watched a couple of video interviews early in the week at ARU website and wondered if the guys just looked like they were on summer holiday at a lovely beach side hotel and not focusing on business. I think the 4 main problems were:
1… The 5 replacement players didn’t anticipate at the level required by a very physical and determined Springboks
2… Each player independently paced themselves for the altitude effect with the result that randomly at times the Wallabies were under strength around the break down and the Springboks broke out
3… I think Deans’s game plan was to surprise the Springboks and run the ball at the veldt. Result, he only out flanked himself. Early in the match this strategy nearly worked but the Boks held strong on their line. Did Deans think if the Wallabies could get ahead in the first 15 minutes the Boks would become overwhelmed with doubt and would mentally deteriorate to a rabble? We will never know.
An important moment of the match was when Brock James was penalized for that blatant pro foul when he stood behind the ruck offside for sometime and kicked the ball away stopping the Wallabies attack. If he had been yellow carded things may have been different.
The greatest generals study their defeats. Clearly Deans wants to win the war not the battle. He wants the Tri-Nations trophy. Now he has 2 weeks to rebuild the team before they take the field
4…Finally suspect that mentally the Wallabies were still at the beach resort Durban by the pool thinking about wining the Tri-Nations in Brisbane (and Campese didn’t hand out the jerseys at Ellis Park)
stuff happens said | September 1st 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Excellent article Spiro:”Hang up your glasses, the horse has bolted” is terrific.Good old Rex Mossop.
Much as I applauded the Dingo’s selection as coach it is already starting to wear thin. In both Akl and J’burg we saw a complete failure to change tactics after first half latherings.
My ‘favourite’ moments were when the the ‘Boks ran straight through the Wallaby lineout only to be recalled by the ref and then being able to repeat exactly the same play 30 secs later ;Juan Smith to Spies who was held out by Tuqiri. Scrum to the ‘Boks who decimated the Wallabies.
For one of the early tries ( I forget which one) there were five Springboks attacking to the left and one Wallaby defender!
The Australians and the Dingo are very lucky that they have a chance to atone for this appalling performance in two weeks and not wear the defeat for 12 months until the next TN.
As for the Springboks this was the rugby I expected throughout the TN - fantastic, well done.And to think Ruan Piennar is a reserve!
Rickety Knees said | September 1st 2008 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Well done Spiro - I just wish some of those other Rugby hacks would sit up and take notice of the quality of your journalism instead of serving us up with their bland literal laxatives.
Your point on League defence is a good one and your tacit point that we are wasting our time recruiting Leaguies is also poignent. Though Muggleton and Kiss should be acknowledged for their contribution to Australian Rugby. I guess it is easier to teach rather than do.
It is time for a Wallaby generational change and there is no better man than Deans to effect that. This season was always going to be tough, The fact that we now have the Mandela Cup/Plate and we are in the hunt for both the Bledisloe and the 3N is beyond my expectations. Sure I am not happy about our fizzer at Coca a f……g Cola (I hate that bullshit marketing) but can I suggest that given Deans inclusive management style, and along with his old mate at the Force, with second timer Mooney and first timers in Hickey and Friend, that Deans will mentor/befriend these guys and have his finger right on the pulse and bring through the next generation of Wallabies. The experience he has now will hopefully guide him to the type of player that will deliver consistent results for the Wallabies.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Rickety Knees…there are some terrific roar talent coming through the Super 14… I’m sure Deans, Williams and Nucifora will get involved next season, I just hope the S14 will listen…
jam said | September 1st 2008 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
yes vincent i’ll take george smith as captain. it worked in sydney.
There’s been some suggestion of horwill as captain. I’d qualify that. I’d make him forwards captain when smith is off the field.
Having a first year player as captain doesn’t seem right, but he is pretty much unofficial forwards captain anyway, so maybe next year.
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
I find it interesting how many posters have heroes and villains.
They have players they cannot wait to sink the boot in, they stay quiet when they have good games, 1 bad game and they clamour for them to be dropped. The same for Heroes they overlook all their bad games and keep harking to their glory days long ago, or they keep pushing for them to be included.
An example is Tuqiri. Sure he was lazy this game but hardly a main contender for that, the forwards lacked intensity and committment, AC hung back (but assumed coaches orders, no such treatment for Tuqiri). Tuqiri has been our best winger this series.
Mortlock one bad game. Hynes 2 average games but some real good ones.
Mitchell has had 1 start and he had a shocker. He has had bench time and looked good sometimes, average others.
George Smith has had a couple of poor games as well but his fans overlook this.
Moore threw very poorly in the last game as well but no one wants to recognise that, selective demonising of TPN.
Palu was one of the few forwards who was committed. He was not supported. He once again had the highest tackle count. He did make the advantage line almost everytime he got the ball, but what people expect is for him to run 20-30 metres instead.
muskipper is a classic calling it the Waratahs pack, forgetting McMeniman and Horwill, also defending the Brumbies players (even Gregan).
seems far too much provincial bias to me.
Robinson is not our best loosehead, Greg Holmes is but he is out injured, hope he goes on the tour. Kepu potentially is our best hope he goes on tour.
Moore is 1st choice hooker BUT his throwing is brittle as well and needs work!
Tighthead Baxter and Dunning are our best , Henderson, Shepherdson etc are all worse. Blake when he comes back is our hope or a new guy.
Locks, it is obvious Vickerman by a country mile is our best. After him Horwill, and he is very new so lots of potential there.
McMeniman is a better 6 than lock, at least he has mongrel. Kimlin looks good BUT has only had 1 year of S14 , see how he goes next year. Hope he makes NH tour but don’t expect him to start.
Elsom easily our best 6, then McMeniman then a big gap.
Smith our best 7 , then Pocock, I agree Waugh is past his best, and can’t play a whole game anymore in the style that is effective for him.
Palu is our best 8, no other comes close.
Brown would a god bench player since he covers 6,7,8 at a competent level, a better choice than Hoiles.
Burgess, Lucas best bets at 9.
Backs we have more choice. Giteau best 10 but the jury is still out whether he is a better 12.
Barnes is good but not great at 10 and 12. Good kicker , great defender, very average attacker.
Mortlock still world’ best 13, takes more than 1 bad game. Cross or AC good backups for 13.
Tahu can’t be considered for 13 since that is even harder to defend than 12.
Tuqiri, Hynes and Mitchell are our best wingers.
F/B maybe time to give Sam 2 dads a go, everyone else who has been tried has been found wanting. I thought AC our best option at 15 but shows he is a converted 13, he needs to learn better positional play and kicking needs to improve.
Not to despair, another year of S14 and some new guys might come good.
Horne, O’Connor, Naswadeki ? (Lote’s cousin), Pocock (I argue he is there already), Kimlin, Kepu, Dwayne Edwards, Holmes, Lucas.
We do need mongrel in the pack. With Vickerman and Elsom gone, that leaves McMeniman and Horwill left who have a bit, thats not enough.
Rickety Knees said | September 1st 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Mudskipper - no argument there!
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
I do agree league backs have poorer defense than union mainly because they only have to defend a channel and are not used to having worry about pattern defense across the whole field. They have no idea where they should be and who they should tackle in rugby.
The forwards though teach our guys to hit harder and drive them back past the advantage line, unlike our soft bear hugs.
Being stepped by forwards in tight is not that big an issue.
Elsom and Palu both learned how to tackle hard in league, and they are hardest tacklers, they really shorten them up.
Harry said | September 1st 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
Good summation Peter K - we also have the 2 boom 5/8ths Beale and Cooper - are they both currently injured, haven’t heard of them playing club rugby? Anyway I’m hoping they will be strong in 09, we urgently need options there.
Justin said | September 1st 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
Peter K - where do you get your stats from? Are they on the net?
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Justin - I am so gald you asked, shows people want hard facts instead of assumptions ‘Palu is lazy, invisible, pull his finger out etc’.
On rugby heaven, you go to the game stats, there is a tab for player stats.
VERY VERY illuminating.
Australia Pos Tack Off load Kicks Try Assist Line Brk Ruck Maul Mtrs Runs Turn Over Missed Tack
Benn Robinson LHP 3 0 0 0 0 3 20m 3 0 0
Tatafu Polota-Nau HOOK 4 1 0 0 0 2 7m 3 3 2
Matt Dunning THP 4 0 0 0 0 2 5m 2 0 0
James Horwill LCK1 5 1 0 0 0 5 44m 6 2 1
Hugh McMeniman LCK2 4 2 0 0 0 6 39m 8 1 0
Rocky Elsom BSFL 9 2 0 0 0 5 23m 5 2 3
Phil Waugh OSFL 9 0 0 0 0 3 9m 3 1 1
Wycliff Palu NUM8 8 2 0 0 0 10 54m 10 2 1
Sam Cordingley HB 5 0 1 0 0 2 1m 2 1 4
Matt Giteau FIV8 7 2 13 1 1 0 54m 3 1 0
Lote Tuqiri LWNG 4 1 6 0 0 6 22m 5 2 1
Timana Tahu ICEN 1 1 0 0 0 1 22m 3 0 3
Stirling Mortlock OCEN 6 0 2 0 0 3 18m 3 0 4
Peter Hynes RWNG 5 1 1 0 0 2 20m 3 0 1
Adam Ashley-Cooper FBCK 2 1 10 0 0 8 68m 8 0 1
Stephen Moore RHKR 2 2 0 0 0 5 21m 5 3 2
Alastair Baxter RPRP 2 0 0 0 0 0 0m 0 0 2
Dean Mumm RLCK 1 0 0 0 0 1 3m 1 0 2
George Smith RFL 4 0 1 0 1 4 34m 4 0 2
Brett Sheehan RHB 0 0 0 0 0 4 14m 4 0 2
Ryan Cross RBCK 3 0 1 0 1 3 37m 3 0 1
Drew Mitchell RES1 1 0 1 0 1 0 6m 1 0 0
Lets take Palu.
8 tackles, 2nd highest behind 9.
2 offloads - equal highest
10 rucks and mauls - highest
10 runs - highest
1 missed tackle
metres made 54, 2nd highest behind Ashley Cooper
Sam Taulelei said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
It’s easy to criticise players who missed tackles and point the finger of blame but in a defeat of that magnitude you have to look at why the defensive system broke down so poorly.
In the first half SA scored four tries, only the first was due to a defensive error by Tahu who didn’t trust Palu in making the tackle and moved in off his line to help out and exposed the hole for Bekker to run through. Australia had numbers in defence and were sliding across to herd them towards the touchline but Jantjes in trying to wrongfoot Palu held the Wallabies up just a fraction to cause enough doubt. If he had continued to pass the ball along the line as the Wallabies expected chances are the attack would have been thwarted.
The next three tries was simple rugby executed accurately and at speed. Quickly won ruck ball compressed the Wallaby defence and it was letting the ball beat the man and free the unmarked winger Nokwe. Look how Du Preez’s long pass took out Tahu and Mortlock creating a two on one overlap for Nokwe’s first. Error at the lineout and scrum enabled SA to pressure the line and force the defenders in close, leaving five SA players against 1 Wallaby, the same thing again for Nokwe’s third.
It was simple, direct rugby and as the Boks gained in confidence and their passes were sticking, their heads and tails went up and the Wallabies dropped. I agree with Spiro and mentioned in another thread that Australia were tactically naive in trying to move the ball from anywhere on the field while James and Jantjes were happy to kick the ball downfield, turning the Wallabies around to try and repeat it again. At high altitude that approach will always take an aerobic toll and Mortlock needed to calm his troops and tell them to slow the game down and play for field position.
It’s too simplistic and arrogant to suggest that if this player played and this one didn’t that the result would have been different, I thought it was a good side that Deans selected with the players available, although I quibbled over Dunning and Polota-Nau over Baxter and Moore but they weren’t at 100% mentally and only they can answer for themselves. Their work at the setpieces was like watching dominoes falling the longer the game wore on.
Australia couldn’t maintain or generate any momentum and SA had it in spades, all the best tacklers in union and league would have struggled against the Boks onslaught in that first half because they were on the front foot. It’s also overlooked that Australia had two clearcut tryscoring chances that were lost because the final pass didn’t hit the target, just the basics really but under pressure that’s usually the first thing to wobble.
Despite their previous two losses SA had created enough scoring opportunities to win both games, this time they finished them off.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
Peter K…There were 9 Waratahs forwards to 4 Reds/Brumbies of which 2 started on the bench…I think your being a little susceptible to Tahs analysis…The front row and all loose 3 were Tahs…
Yes I have an openly Brumbies predisposition…but are a supporter of Wallabies Tuqiri, Elsom, Vickerman, Palu, Giteau (who really is a Brumby on a western sabbatical), Cordingley, Moore (new Brumby), Cross, Tahu, Turner, Barnes and Mitchell (possible future Brumby). I think that rookies Burgess and Hynes have been talk up a little too much this season however I’m more than happy to see them have a good run in Wallabies jerseys…for 2008. Spiro commented on AAC game but has ignored Hynes Republic tour has been poor. I would back Hynes for start at home in Brisbane, he will do better there.
George Gregan is a favorite target for many, my comments do carry over from the recent Spiro Campese thread…There is always plenty of Brumby bashing here at the Roar from Tahs fans…which is fine, I’m happy to defend the post with reason not bias…
…However many here called for a Waratahs dominated pack before the start this international season. The Waratahs S14 was good so they were favored which is due reward. Nevertheless expect some post match/ season assessment…from the outsiders. The one and only Brumbies forward George Smith has been a Wallabies best on field most games….
LeftArmSpinner said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
Skipper, Rathbone, as much as I would like to see him back, on the weekend against Randwick, he got beaten for pace and evasion by Sekope Kepu, a prop, who went on to score the try untouched. In addition, Rathbone didn’t seem to have a great amount of pace, like before. David Batiratu, and of course, Ratu Nasiganiyavi are very good prospects. Fast, evasive and big.
Stuff happens. please, give me a break regarding Dingo. He is the most likely coach, in the world, to get Wallabies to reach their potential!!! Whether he does it or not, he is still an excellent coach. The players have not shown up in two games and got pasted.
If we were packed with youngsters, you could say, they are still maturing. This is hardly the case with Waugh, Mortlock, Sharpe, et al. Time for a change on the NH tour.
Rickety, I’m with you all the way. If props mature later than other positions, we should send a few young guys, future Wallaby props, to “Prop school” in Argentina, then onto France and England. Then bring them back for the Wallabies. You probably need 6-8 young props. Alexander, Kepu, Tilse, Holmes, Jerry Yanuyanutawa, and a bolter should be Paddy Ryan, Aust Schoolboys loosie in 2006. He’s only in colts at Syd Uni but has it all.
Harry, there are a lot of young S14 players missing, Beale, cooper, Rob Horne. not sure where they are now!
Jerry said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Peter - what’s that “ruck” stat actually measuring? It can’t be total rucks hit, cause that would be much higher. Is it “first player to ruck”?
tarpo said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
Peter K,
love your work as always, how about someone(Foley perhaps) working with TPN about becoming a Tighthead? It would solve 3 problems, it gets him on the field, he doesn’t have to throw & we plug the tighthead position!
Kepu has great potential but is not noted as a particularly strong scrummager yet.
Justin said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Thanks Peter - interesting stuff. I would love to know how some of the terms are defined, for instance ruck/maul. Does that mean they entered a ruck or maul, had the ball going into that particular facet of the game or did they retrieve the ball from that facet. For a turnover, did they lose the ball or win the ball? there were 8 tries yet only 5 assists so how do they define an assist?
While you can use these as a guide I wouldnt put all my faith in them. Things like run metres are pretty subjective if they are done live. I will contact rugbyheaven and see if they will give some definitions for their stats as they can mean vastly different things depending on how they are judged. They are pretty basic, nothing on lineouts or scrums either. I wonder who actually records the stats…
Jerry said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
One more thought - remember that theory that a team simply playing 3 Tri-Nations test in succession would be unable compete? Hope we’ve heard the last of that little cliche.
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
muskipper - That is the problem , there is far too much provincialism.
Sure the forwards should be analysed for performance, but not because they are Waratahs, all forwards should be.
My point is was not a Waratah pack but a Wallaby one.
The best people should get in the team regardless of state. Rathbone is a case in point, he WAS great, never been the same since his injuries. I want more than ok club form at Easts before he gets in the team again.
I do not do Brumby bashing but I willingly pick on any player regardless from where they are from.
Turner and Beale are both overhyped Tahs for instance. I was a fan for Polotua but not until he can prove he can throw. Read my post above I pick Holmes and Blake ahead of existing Wallabies props.
Burgess easily best half this year, BTW Gregan did hang on far too long and was not a great Wallaby captain, no where near Eales. Next year I agree its on again for Half because Burgess has shown significant flaws and has not sealed the position. Holmes and Lucas should be competing.
I see Kimlin as a real up and comer etc.
Simon said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
Well said! Do you have any comments on the psychological factor?
Do you think if the game was more than a “dead-rubber”, the result would be any different?
Why is it the Wallaby’s seem to play awful when they think the opposition won’t be as good as them, but they seem to play with a self-controlled urgency and focus if they think they need to play ‘above their weight’ to be any chance?
Actually, I think the next game against the All Blacks will be close (and a possible win for the Wallaby’s) for this reason!
But why is it the AB’s consistently play with a self-controlled urgency and focus almost every game? Does it have anything to do with the way they approach the game compared to us
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
LeftArmSpinner…yerrrrr… I saw that but I think the camera made Clyde look closer Kepu than he was and Kepu had good overlap with good pace… though I do like Kepu as a player get his scrummaging up AAP and into a Wallabies jersey. Hopefully he will be a regular starter for the Waratahs next season. If not he should go to and start at a new club…We don’t want to wait years for him to mature as a player.
On Rathbone… I’ve been watching him with the Beasts he often comes in midfield in their 22 and defensively covers at 12 or even goes across and assists the opposite winger…I don’t remember him doing this at the Brumbies so much…he is a team beyond doubt a team player and is not lazy bones…bad pun…Its possible he wont get back to the Wallabies which would be a great pity….he has more to offer…
The Brumbies sent Ben Alexander NH for scrummaging experience and it worked…
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Justin - I do not put all my faith in any stats.
What they do show is workrate, and this is where I defend Palu all the time for accusations of being lazy, needing to pull his finger out etc. He always has a high work rate in tackles, runs, and in maul / rucks, unlike other forwards who just do showy things. Palu also has a high offload rate in games showing skill.
The work that players do in tight is best shown in stats IMO.
The best stats are in S14 Fantasy Team stats. They show lineout wins, scrums , everything.
I wish a similar thing was done for test teams and published!
Justin said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Peter - yep agree with all that. I used to work for Champion Data who for a number of years in the late 90s and early to mid 2000s did the stats for Channel 7 and they were also bought by a number of the print media. We were able to give them stats on the run with regard to tackles made/missed, lineout wins for each player and where they won the ball in that lineout (front, middle or back for instance), kicks (which type and whether it found open space or was regathered), linebreaks and just about anything meaningful you could think of. Thats what peaked my interest with regard to what the stats on rugbyheaven actually mean.
Blinky Bill - Bellingen said | September 1st 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
I’ve held off writing because I figured that the Wallabies would receive a right bagging and need someone in their corner, and that someone is me.
My mind is concentrated on looking for the positives that came from that game. What can they be?
The obvious one is that we will never play that badly again. Surely we can’t.
Next is what can Robbie Deans do between now & Brisbane? The answer has to be to not panic, steady the ship and to pick the best players in position. Facts are that Brisbane will be what Brisbane will be. I’m looking beyond this whole thing.
I’m looking at 2 big things:
1. The end of year NH tour (who goes & who stays); and
2. What the ARU can come up with to improve the situation about the numbers and quality of players that Robbie has to select from. That gene pool needs cleaning.
At the moment the quality and numbers is ‘reshuffling decks chairs on Titanic’ stuff. Robbie needs his ARU bosses to provide him with access to better material (even if it takes several years to get them to the top level) and for that to happen we need something to take the place of the ARC and we need it sooner not later. Remember how the ARC allowed us to suddenly see this so many player options for the coach? It was great stuff. So okay if the ARC is unaffordable, then let’s look at the next best option, then the next best and so on. Something needs doing.
We will soon lose Rocky Elsom & Dan Vickerman yet I’m not seeing any obvious replacements. What kind of organisation would have two key employees leave and not have a master plan? ARU are you listening? Perhaps our end of year NH tour will uncover these chaps? Let’s hope so. No let’s not hope………..let’s PLAN for it.
At the risk of failing to sound totally positive about the Jo’burg game (and believe me I try) allow me to confess that the main reason that I’m delighted that the Brisbane game is 2 weeks away is because that’s about how long it’s going to take my TV repairer guy to put all the parts together after the kicking I gave it.
Go the Wallabies!!!!!!!!!!!!
Roger said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
Some very suprising dire and serious suggestions here, especially given last week’s ‘loveu-in’ after winning in SA. Why dont we all take a collective breath…and remember that McMeniman will replace Elsom when he goes, Mumm or Kimlin are there to partner Horwill, and Tahu will get better.
I think we have all forgotten how difficult it is to win in SA. Now I agree the effort and execution just wasnt there, but the team looked like they were trying to play the same brand of footy as last week, its just that lineouts and kicking wasnt as sharp as needed, and possession and territory hurt us from there. Amazing how failing in those two areas meant increased tackle count, fatigue and resulting thrashing. Saffas really were on fire.
Now dont get me wrong, we have some of the same problems to a lesser degree that we had from the fatefull day in Marsaille in 2007, namely poor depth in props and a tendancy for our forwards to want to run around in backline like rock stars instead of flooding the crap out of the breakdown until the opposing team relents…but I truly think we have progressed.
Lets all remember that we are playing at home next week after 2 weeks’ rest, the boys will be breathing fire after losing to SA the way they did. As usual NZ will be pertified of losing to us.
Sure, PN, Tahu, Sheehan (a league hooker if I ever saw one) and Waugh are only bench worthy at the moment, so add Cross to the previous winning lineup and move on. Keep the faith gents, have a look at posts from last week…players and coaches dont go from being good one week to being bad the next. A few of you sound like Greg Growden whenever his heart is broken from a Wallaby loss and he lashes out that those he loves…
Brisbane, bring it on!
stillmissit said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
The thing I want to see and we havent seen yet, is selections of players based on a deep understanding of what we need in the Wallabies plus an insight into players who can possibly step up.
All our best coaches have either rebuilt the current cattle ie McQueen or found brand new cattle ie Bob Dwyer. I prefer the latter as the legacy they leave keeps us going for many years as opposed to McQueens team that fell to pieces after he left because Jones couldnt or wouldnt rebuild the team, when it was obvious they needed it. There are 2 players that Deans has developed and that is Horwill and Hynes, they most probably were suggestions from the Qld coach or Pat Howard and therefore Deans hasn’t done any real new selections yet. I am looking forward to this time as I think it will be very interesting.
It seems obvious that Deans is an evolutionary coach and not a revolutionary coach and I am comfortable with that.
For those who claim we dont have any other cattle then have a word with Bob Dwyer or even Alan Jones and they will tell you we have never had the cattle, we have had to find them in the wilds and hand rear all of them ourselves.
I am hoping that Deans is a build the future coach rather than a current cattle coach. The jury is still out about this.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
I here you… it not about division…when refer to Waratahs I don’t see it as a negatively but as they should have a greater understanding of each others play. Like I would say Munster forwards for Ireland team and did as the Brumbies backline did a few seasons ago…
Josh Holmes just didn’t settle this season, I don’t know why… Pat Phibbs is very competent half and I don’t think the coach Laurie Fisher was ready risk the season Holmes and young Christian Lealiifano for to long as he was still hoping to renew his own contract. Brumbies had a dreadful injury ridden season last year and the shock of Julian Huxley’s illness. Which I think really upset a the guys.
Kimlin is the real thing, you can just tell, like Horwill his got it….and future possibles young O’Connor and Pocock.
Ben C said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
Given the way the Wallabies looked threatening initially and then collapsed in on themsleves, and that many players with good track records played out of sorts, I think the problem is mental rather than physical. I understand from a ‘good source’ that the RWC QF loss was due to sledging from the England team putting the forwards off their game and allowing Eng to dominate the breakdown and set piece. If so, this is hardly the fault of Dingo Deans but does pose an interesting problem for creating a side with the mental toughness. The 91 and 99 Wallaby teams had that mental toughness but we seem to have lost it. Can Deans help the current players regain their edge or dump longstanding players and bring in fresh blood with a new attitude. he seems to be slowly taking the latter course, eg letting Sharpe go, bringing on Burgess, Horwill and Hynes. But do we have enough depth (particularly in the front row) to assemble a new, tougher Wallaby team?
stillmissit said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
LeftArm it will be very sad if we lose Rathbone completely but speed is everything. Cameron Shepherd is another where the body cutters have killed his speed.
Is this what we are going to see more of, guys getting leg/knee/ankle operations and then never getting their speed back?
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Stillmissit…you say cattle and all I think is BBQ…we need through bread horses…
bradley said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
In defence of the Wobblies, they came here to win one game. After the scoreline hit double figures and Lote Tuquri missed the open try by dropping the ball the guys were basically out of it and thinking about home. Test rugby is very intense and the wobblies were not mentaly up to it. One thing I have learnt about The Australian rugby charachter is that losing does not get them down, they will not sulk and come the Brisbane test will be a completely different side. My money is on Australia for the Tri-nations. Tahu was poor in defence BUT if he was naot a leaguie he would never have been picked. I thought Carter and Jacobs were much better in the super 14 and with the likes of Giteau and Mortlock could have been even better at Test level. If Carter wants to be fast tracked into the wallabies he has to get a League contract ASAP. The loss also illustrates the impact of Berrick Barnes, last year I was not a beliver, but I think he may be the next bi8g thin in Rugby, very much the Horan Mauger kind of player not flash but still brilliant. Hopefully the lack of depth in Australian rugby does not see him carrying too much weight on his shoulders.
Harry said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
Just a broader point - I really think these days you will get more and more “blowouts” in these games as the line between success and failure gets thinner and thinner. Clearly Aus were fractionally off their game on Saturday, fell behind and blew up. I think the 2 reasons for this were 1) complacency and 2) Tahu finding out that rugby union defence at the highest level is a lote more precise than league.
The fact is we can win the 3N by winning at home in Brisbane, what a great situation and opportunity for the Wallabies. Vickerman, and to a lesser extent Barnes, being fit is the key. Cross to come in at 12 if barnes is missing.
Incidentially Tahu’s shocker was very similar to two other much hyped ex league stars who found the demands of a test inside centre way beyond their league heritage, despite their undouted footballing skills - Andy Farrell and Henry Paul for England. You live, you learn.
de villiers said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
Hey Spiro and company, not a word about the Springboks’ play?
Come on guys, they were outstanding on the day!
Bulldog said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
Good article Spiro - very honest assessment.
Agree that Waugh and particularly Dunning must go and never be seen again. Dunning is a disgrace to anyone who has lined up as a front row player. Just seeing that butterball in a wallabies jersey just makes me want to cry and trun of the TV. I hear the arguments that he is the best we got - but I would rather blood some young kids and get a beating than line that joke up again and again..
I like Waugh but… I think his test results to date speak for themselves. Bring in some young kids behind Smith (Pocock).
Tahu needs some more experience particularly in defence - do not write him off completely. AAC had a shocker - why was he running backwards after kicking?? Tuquri - very lazy player - he should go as well.
Horwill for captain.
Roger said | September 1st 2008 @ 3:52pm | Report comment
Looking at the rugby heaven stats provided by the ever educated Peter K, the fact that Aussies made 34 ineffective tackles and Boks completed twice as many offloads is a pretty good indicator of the mental approach by both teams. Deans is working on both short term (physical, skills) and long term (mental toughness) goals at the moment so patience is needed. Lets not judge newcomers in the group be their predecessor’s failings. Calls for Mortlock to be dropped ate hilarious esp given he recent performances and in particluar the amount of angry hoarding boks running at him on Sat night.
Team stats are not that dire for Wallabies as they have won other games with worse stats…maybe difference between wining and losing withthose stats is home ground advantage.
Individual stats show our backrown did lots of tackling and was probably on the bottom or rucks most of the time.
Saffas kikcing metre-idge was also larger than Aussies…it did seem like a lot of our kicks either fell into their 22 or came domw on halfway and NOT into the uncomfortable area in between 22 and 30M lines.
ohtani's jacket said | September 1st 2008 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
Interesting France have never lost at Ellis Park. They won there in ‘58, ‘67, ‘93 and 2001.
What’s up with that?
Guy said | September 1st 2008 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
Gee Roger, some good points however we didn’t just get beaten, we were thrashed. This was no little “win in Durban, lose by 3 points in J/burg’ story, we lost by 45 points…8 tries to 1! This is a “supposed” professional team that does nothing but train, skill development, tactics etc etc. There are NO excuses for such a lame effort. As someone mentioned earlier, if this was a company they would all get fired, ever heard of the term “what have you done for me lately”? Forget whatever happened way back when. If the Wallabies were a racehorse the stewards would call for an enquiry, fair dinkum! Yeah for sure Mortlock must have felt embarrassed receiving the Mandela Bling….how could anyone with a sense of pride look anyone in the eye and say, yeah we deserved it. I note in Deans post match comments he said he doesn’t believe in statistics….well start believing baby, you ain’t in Christchurch jet boating up and down fjords any more, welcome to The Show and statistics is what pro sports is all about, and so far you have a standout stat that no Wallaby coach has ever had in 109 years….45 point losing margin!
JA said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
Spiro,
Surely Palu has played his last game for the Wallabies? Name a game we have lost where Palu could be counted as one of our best players?
The fact is he wilts under pressure.
stuff happens said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
LeftArmSpinner, you say ‘please give me a break re Dingo’ and then say ‘the players have not shown up for two games and got pasted’. I’m afraid you’re digging your own hole with this comment.If players do not ’show up’ for one game the coach is at least partly responsible.If they don’t ’show up’ for two games out of three, you’re in trouble and the coach is very much responsible.
I hope as much as any Australian that the Dingo is a great success for Australia and ,yes it’s early days, but quite frankly the latherings in Akl & Joburg are a worry.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
New Zealand have one win out of last five at Ellis Park 1:5 but haven’t played there since Aug 2004 before that 1997. Australia have played there 4 times since 1998, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2008. all Boks wins. The last team to win at Ellis Park was France in 2001 before that NZ in 1997…
I think Boks like to roster the Wallabies to play at Ellis Park.
True Tah said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
JA,
Palu was close to Australia’s best when we got spanked by the ABs.
ohtani's jacket said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
It’s not the fact that the Wallabies lost at Ellis Park that is the issue, it’s the size and nature of the defeat given all the talk during the week. And mudskipper, they did schedule the first Test in Durban and played the All Blacks at Newlands (of all places), so that excuse doesn’t fly either.
sheek said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
Peter K,
I am one of those who stand corrected on Palu. The stats show he was more involved than I imagined. Also, hard to be effective when the whole pack is going backwards.
Still difficult to accept that the Wallabies could be so care-less as to lose by 45 points. In the modern game, 20 points is a thrashing, but 45 points???
As Spiro suggested, a massacre.
Jerry said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
“As usual NZ will be pertified of losing to us”
Get a grip.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
OJ…not an excuse just an observation… Wallabies were crap and got belted… Looking at the stats. Palu did most of the work.
TPN 4 tackles ran 7 m
Waugh 9 tackles ran 9 m
Elsom 9 tackles ran 23 m
Palu 8 tacles ran 54 m
Horwill 5 tackles ran 44m
McMeniman 4 tackles 39 m
Baxter 2 tackles ran zero m
Robinson 3 tachles ran 20 m
G Smith 34 tackles ran 34 m
Guy said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:36pm | Report comment
Not difficult to accept, it is completely unacceptable by anyone who is a serious supporter of the Wallabies. I have been reading the posts all day following Spiro’s article. Every analysis every which way as if that game just needed a tweak here and a tweak there. Palu this, Tahu that, Waugh is crap, oh the front row. Yeah, the Bokkies played well because they were allowed to play well. Thats the tale of the tape, you are only allowed to do what the opposition permits. I am still dumb-founded by that performance. Noone, not one player deserves to be in any team after that shellacking. The Japs would do hari kari if they played like that. The ABs would emigrate en masse to Bondi rather than suffer the humiliation of going back to NZ with that scoreline. Whats the positives? None except Deans has just worked out they ain’t the guys he thought they were. No more of this “play whats in front of you” Too lassez faire. He has to get these guys by the goolies and show em whos boss. They have lost any pretence of deserving respect. Think I’m too harsh? Nuh, the cricketers wouldn’t get away with a performance like that, and thats why they have dominated the world stage for years. In fact, no Green n Gold team would, and no special dispensation for these guys.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
A few Boks forward These guys did the bulk of the work
Matfield 9 tackles ran 13 m
Burger 10 tackles ran 86 m
J Smith 13 tackles ran 38 m + 5 off loads
Spies 8 tackles ran 96 + f loads
Du Plessis 5 tackles ran 16 m
Bekker 5 tackles ran 45 m
The most back metres ran for Boks was
Jantjes 5 tackles ran 95 m + 5 off loads + 8 kicks
The most back metres ran for Wallabies was
Adam Ashley Cooper 2 tackles ran 68 m + 10 kicks
Westy said | September 1st 2008 @ 5:51pm | Report comment
Roger………….Mortlock does not deserve to go. I think that Spiro article is good but it failed to mention that no one covered themselves in glory. Mortlock passing game has always been his weakest feature and on saturday there were times ……I am not sure what was going on……………
As for our lineout working well……….Spiro must merely view winning the ball component because I could have sworn I saw three running SA backrowers break our lineout ..or its recovering defensive formation ….2 of which resulted in tries and could hardly be blamed on recovering inside backs. It is fundamental not to let your counterpart break through
Tahu was the principal cause of the first try but I have no idea of who Mortlock was looking at when he missed that ball. Secondly who missed the the first tackle on Pineaar because that really was an incompetent attempt at a tackle?
Remember balance is important. Peter K’s reminder to us about having a look at statistics and available players is refreshing. We have some new talent . Secondly with those not familiar with clubland just not as many as we would like. AB’s always play McCaw if he is fit. He is the best. Smith is our best Waugh is second best. He is a replacement player to Smith. Always was and always will be politics or not.Not my favourite player Big Dell but Eddie always made clear it was on some of these not highly noticeable facets of the game he was valuable………….metres gained/offloads/ assists in ruck/maul/ taking ball forward/ ………only problem was I think he may have been a backrower.
Any of us who bother to look at Sydney 1st grade club rugby with the possible exception of one side will see some of the most ineffective tackling techniques and inept defensive patterns on show. The problem is this is where some of our players must learn their basic trade…….and some of us think leaguies have got problems!
One other ominous aspect was the significant number of offloads by the Bok forwards relative to ours………..
we were not driving them back….or stopping them at the advantage line……………..
Quality depth is and remains Australian rugby’s achilles heel. We buy Tahu primarily a league winger ( at representative level Kangaroos/ State of Origin) he primarily made it as a winger……….even at his longest serving club Newcastle he was a winger…………Gidley on one side and a defensive centre on the other side …….Tahu was a winger………….Cooper and Hodges are the best defensive League centres. One of the principal reasons Tahu went to Parramatta was they assured him he would play centre……….his defence did improve but I note he played outside Hindmarsh in defence. Rodgers only got to play on the wing at Cronulla because firstly Johnny Lang then Chris Anderson believed quite rightly his defence was suspect. Rugby actually improved his defence.I think Tahu needs a full season in Super 14 uninjured before I make my mind up. BUT PLEASE WE BUY THESE PLAYERS BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE MANY OF OUR OWN QUALITY SECOND TIER PLAYERS. It is that simple.
Paul Sheehan wrote in today’s Herald about the structural flaws in GPS rugby. As I have been repeatedly reminded this is just a school competition ……so who cares if Sydney High is inept ? But if he thinks they have structural problems have a look at the Shute Shield and lower Grades. He seems to think 102 by Joeys to Sydney High’s nil is a problem causing a comp to collapse……….come to clubland 126 to nil/ 106 to nil/ 102 to nil/ 79 to nil ………….This does not even raise a sentence in the Herald.
And we wonder why we have to buy league players?
Our elite players will recover . This was only one game . I am still not sure about our second tier .
matta said | September 1st 2008 @ 6:27pm | Report comment
interesting that people are quoting Tackles and Meters run… I think the most important stat from the game was rucks hit/won…Saffers killed us
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 6:31pm | Report comment
To get a more complete picture I took the stats from all the Wallaby TN’s games and analysed them.
I only included players games where they started and played most of the game. Also they must of started more than 1 game, so players like Cross, Tahu, Polotua, Vickerman, McMeniman are not included.
I have been WRONG about Smith, he started as a glory boy but has really lifted his workrate.
Palu stands out. Tuqiri has a high workrate out of backs despite popular opinion.
These are the averages over the games
Tackles - Smith 14.5, Barnes 12, Palu 10, Elsom 9.25, Horwill 9, Moore 8.5, Sharpe 8, Giteau 8, Waugh 7.67
Offloads - Palu 2, Burgess 1.67, Giteau 1.4, Barnes 1.3, Elsom 1.0, Horwill 0.8
Line Breaks - Tuqiri 0.8, Mortlock 0.67, Palu 0.4, Giteau 0.4, rest <= 0.25
Ruck / Maul - Palu 10.8, Smith 8, Elsom 7.75, Sharpe 6.67, Mortlock 5.67, Tuqiri 5.6, Horwill 5.4
Mtrs - Palu 57.2, Tuqiri 56.2, Mortlock 53.33, AC 52.50, Elsom 36.25
Runs - Palu 11.8, Elsom 8.5, Sharpe 7.67, Smith 7.5, Mortlock 7.0, Tuqiri 6.2, Horwill 6.0
Mtrs / Run - AC 10, Tuqiri 9.06, Mortlock 7.62, Barnes 7.22, Giteau 7.14, Hynes 6.68, Palu 4.85
So sure drop Palu 3rd in tackles, most offloads, most mtrs, most runs, best mtrs per run out of the forwards, most linebreaks by a forward. Considering this includes from back of th scrum where they are all over him this is pretty good.
Tuqiri most line breaks, 2nd most metres, 2nd most metres / run, 2nd most involvements by a back in ruck/maul does not sound lazy to me. His stats are better than Hynes in every way.
Missed tackles worst
Smith 4.0
Elsom 3.5
Barnes 3.33
Mortlock 2.67
Cordingly 2.5
Missed tackles best
Dunning 0.5
Waugh 0.67
Hynes 0.67
Robinson 0.8
Sharpe 1.0
Horwill 1.2
Tuqiri 1.2
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
JA - Palu had the highest workrate in both the games we lost.
I also think close to our best forward as well if not our best player in these games.
Justin said | September 1st 2008 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
As I stated earlier we need to have clarification on some of these stats as to what they actually mean. What about handling errors, forced and unforced?
I would suggest a linebreak by a forward or inside back is more difficult than a winger who may receive the ball in space or may have a clear run of 30 metres without having to beat a soul. Whats the difference between metres and metres run?
Not knocking stats in general but they tell a limited story with regard to performance (and yes I know you realise this already Peter).
Darryl said | September 1st 2008 @ 7:23pm | Report comment
Not that it really matters but the Darryl comment above is not me as in Darryl the Saffer. Maybe I should list myself as Darryl the Saffer from now on.
I think Deans is an excellent coach and should not be judged on this last game. As we Bok supporters know, a week is a long time in rugby. Suddenly the Boks are deserved World Champions again. Fickle thing this rugby.
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
Justin I agree - I would also like stats on things like setting up a player with a pass, lineout wins against the throw, lineout losses, the first to a ruck, the first to clear at a ruck, the kicks broken down into distance bands, and whether they were out or not. The more the better.
A plethora of stats so I could be like a pig in mud.
However with the stats on hand there is no doubt that Palu is vastly underrated by people. Lineouts don’t matter to him the ruck stats do but for the loose forward he is leading all the stats but people keep calling for him to be dropped.
H-RAINE said | September 1st 2008 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
the team for the future i would have woukd be after you get ridd off smioth waugh elsom vickerman sharpe mortlock and tuquiri would be 1 alexander 2 freier 3 blake 4 horwill 5 mumm6 mcmeniam7 pockock8 palu 9burgess 10beale 11 turner 12gitueah captain 13 cross 14hynes/ione/mitchell/rathbone 15 huxley/aac/mitchell/barnes/shepard 16 moore/tpn 17 baxter/sheperdson/dunning/robinson 18 caldwell/chislom/ 19 brown 20sheean/lucas/valentine/henjak 21 tahu/turinui/horne/carter/snn/cooper 22 huxley/barnes/aac/rathbone/mitchell/hynes/carrero also is there any chance of rob horne going to nthe wing and do ithyere of cross tahu or turin ui have kicking games
ohtani's jacket said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:00pm | Report comment
Deans won’t drop anyone two weeks out from the decider.
I like Palu but he needs to drive extra metres in the tackle and link up better. If he could offload, he’d be a more dangerous ball carrier, but he needs to go around the defender instead of inside. He steps into space, but the wrong direction.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:01pm | Report comment
Peter K….Thanks for the additional stats… Do you have minutes played? It may provide a more accurate analysis. Tuqiri was just a little less involved this week; otherwise he has had a good season. He was covering for long kicks.
What I noted from the stats where the Wallabies need more complete players. More runs and off loads. Take Stephen Moore for example at Ellis Park, he was on a short time but has stats better than some who played for twice as long. Furthermore we need to be careful when reading the stats as note all player roles are equal. Example I do think Flankers are always going to have more missed tackles because they rush the line Rocky and Smith have a higher rate and players working close to the ruck are unlikely to have missed tackles.
The low work rate of Dunning and Baxter does worry me however Robinson a small prop for internationals seems to get involved. Smith only runs after the first phase or at set piece. Palu often runs during the scrum.
Peter K…I wouldn’t drop Palu we need him, just to show I am sincere he can play at the Brumbies next season if its OK with you…
Mark H said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:20pm | Report comment
Gutted. Well, things need to pick up. Simple footy wasnt played. We allowed the Boks to get on top when in the first 5mins we should have scored.
You cant get to wrapped up, the players need to aim up, thats it. If you want to be playing for your country, step up or piss off. There are a few guys in this squad who should be dropped after the tri-nations finishes.
chris said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:28pm | Report comment
I wonder why the game was not a sell-out.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:32pm | Report comment
Let Spies run 96 metres and ou’re going to lose the match…thats equal Horwill and Palu our 2 best forward runners…
Paul said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:34pm | Report comment
Westy. you make a good point. Insstead of people using the hammering of the rugby UNION team th trash League, look at the reasons why you have league players in the team to start with. There is a definite endemic weakness in Oz rugger, it is going no where, producing too few juniors and relying on the overflow of league talent to prop it up. this is a recipe for a slow and painful death. Reform the grass roots structure or see union drop down even further than it already has.
Bagging league skills is not going to win you games, develop your own players!
Rangi said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:47pm | Report comment
Guy,
Good posts mate. Straight to the point. Robbie says he doesn’t care about the stats, what about the 53-8 stat ? Some of his talk since he came to Australia is really worrying me as he is sounding more and more like John Mitchell. God forbid, more bleedin’ Anthony Robbins crap about journeys and opportunities and growing and bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Please just play some rugby !
The fact is that that performance was so lame it is just incomprehensible in the 21st century which is supposed to be all about professionalism. How can you be paid so much and give so little.
And as for the one eye on Brisbane excuse, more bullshit.You are all professionals and you need to turn up for every game. 53-8 is not a little loss it is a humiliation. What kind of team even dares to make excuses like that.
Forget all the talk of selections etc, etc, these blokes need to discover some ticker.
Spiro has been writing a lot about Sun Tzu’s The Art of War lately and the old adage has never sounded truer - character is founded in the heat of battle. Didn’t see much of that on Saturday night.
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 8:58pm | Report comment
OJ - Palu averages 2 offload per game, the highest of any Wallaby, so he is able to do that.
mudskipper the stats were an average over all their games. I only used games where players played 60 minutes or more a game so the stats should be comparable.
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
Justin - Metres is the total metres. Since I also had the number of runs they made I divided total metres by number of runs giving metres per run on average.
ohtani's jacket said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
The thing I don’t understand about the hooplah over Deans is that I can’t remember the Aussies overtly praising him when he was the Crusaders coach.
Deans is getting paid a hell of a lot more to coach the Wallabies than he would the All Blacks, more than the ARU can actually afford. Tahu is getting paid a lot of a lot to play rugby in Australia.
You have to wonder if it’s money well spent.
ohtani's jacket said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:09pm | Report comment
Actually i messed up my comment about Palu. I meant he TENDS to go around the defender instead of inside him. He has a habit of breaking away from his support.
mudskipper said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Peter K.. so players like Waugh only games 2 perhaps in 3N. Peter do you have the stats from the Auckland match. Eden park.. What was McCaws stats? as he had a huge match and Rodney So’oialo.
Paul said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:17pm | Report comment
Paul, you mention league skills!? Personally mate, and no disrespect intended here, I think the “skill” of league is far less that of rugby. Rugby has traditionally been called the Thinking Man’s Game! It isn’t simple straight up the guts tactics as league is. Rugby requires flowing play. League stops after every tackle whilst both teams race to reposition. The list could be endless but would ultimately be futile! Rugby league in the 70’s and 80’s poached Union backs as they were far superior ball players than their home grown breeds. Now, in the second millennium, union seems to be poaching league backs, who are traditionally inferior ball players. Why? Have you seen the talent running around in the Sydney 1st grade comp? It aint bad at all!! If you want league players in union, why not poach the forwards! Now they are traditionally superior in the physical aspect of the game. But, can they adapt! I doubt it! Although, it seems to me that Deans, the Wallabies, the Saffas the Kiwis are only the actors on stage. It’s SANZAR that decides who wins what!! Is that overly cynical???? Does any other poor soul think this way?
- Green and Gold at heart!!!!
B Johnson said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:39pm | Report comment
Chris
The official attendance for Saturday was just above 52 000. 34k was mentioned somewhere but not sure where it came from. The reason for it not being a sellout was the fact that the stadium is being refurbished for the Confederations Cup next year and the FIFA World Cup in 2010.(and maybe because many SA fans had enough bad product 2 weeks in a row)
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 9:56pm | Report comment
muskipper - yes Waugh 2 games, Burgess 3, Cordingly 2, Sharpe 3, Moore 4 etc.
All the stats are there for all Boks and AB’s.
I did not have the time to do it for all the players so I only did Wallabies, I do have a job to do as well
McCaw 16 tackles, 1 offload, 0 line breaks, 7 ruck/maul, 38 metres, 9 runs, average 4.22, 2 missed tackles.
Soailo for the one game
8 tackles, 12 ruck/maul, 50 metres, 12 runs, 2missed tackles.
average over all his games
8.5 tackles, 0.5 offloads, 8.25 ruck/maul, 37.75 metres, 8.25 runs, average 4.58 metres / run,1.25 missed tackles
LeftArmSpinner said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:01pm | Report comment
Jerry, that was my observation, not a cliche as the 3N have only played three games for the first time this year. And we didnt factor in the Boks strategy of taking a holiday in the second game. (the last sentence is a joke!!! Get it?)
Peter K, Blake was unfit and not committed!! He may come back a better player, but equally, he may just vanish like the second rower/6 from Brumbies, Fijian bloke!! remember? Used to run like a three quarter!!
Mudskipper, you may be right but it didnt seem that way at the time to Pappy or the other commentators and I am sure that the Beasties will have pounded Rathbone afterwards. Rathbone has never really lived up to the hype or natural ability he has/had. Could he be a centre?? He was In SA.
Mud, i agree that dingo is evolutionary. It breeds trust in the players and coach. There are enough young backs coming through. its the props that are the problem.
Stillmissit, Speed is a rare commodity.
Harry and others, Tahu didn’t have a shocker at all. nor was it a great, blistering game. lets not lose perspective.
Go Bulldog!!!
Oj, as always, a source of unusual info. Lets go and talk to the frogs before we head back to Coke park.
Simon, deadrubber. technically but I cannot believe that the Wallabies jersey and reping your country is so unimportant. and dont forget, it was a chance to create a piece of history and open the gates for the future, as well as putting the Boks into complete disarray and infighting.
Stuff happens, I know what you are saying but, it is early days and he has given the first batch of players first bite of the cherry. I suspect that he will be now saying, as he has done to Sharpe, enough is enough. play consistently or you are out!
Sam Taulelei said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:04pm | Report comment
OJ, Rangi and Guy
I’m with you. Any other coach that returned that result would have been villified by the press and public. On another thread OJ asked a valid question if there would be any criticism of Deans or would the players cop the blame for not showing up like they did in Auckland. Apart from Mark Ella’s column in The Australian most of the attention is deflected somewhat by the focus on the Brisbane test and the expectation that with something on the line, the players attitudes will be sharper and more focused.
What the?????
Deans won’t take kindly to achieving a record of the biggest test loss suffered in history by Australia and nor should he. Can you imagine the furore in SA if the result was reversed and PDV replied that he’s not too concerned with the numbers or the scoreboard. Remaining composed is one thing but taking responsibility is another thing altogether.
Teams coached by Deans have been noted for maintaining a consistency of performance and standards. They have not been invincible or infallible but they do take pride in what they do and play for each other. To date this team is not reaching those same benchmarks.
Peter K said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:15pm | Report comment
Sam, OJ etc - I too think that the press has been too light / forgiving on Deans.
His selections in both games we lost have been poor. Playing both Waugh/Smith, not playing 2 kickers etc.
OK he may be forgiven for the 1st game where we lacked intensity but not the second. He has been fuly aware and said so that we need intensity. Part of the coaches build up is to make sure its there.
Deans I believe is personally responsible for the defensive coaching, thats why he let Muggleton go. Our defense over the 5 games has not been as good, we have let in more tries, mind you we have scored more as well.
So whilst ther have been many many positives the negatives have been glossed over.
Deans is still a great improvement but we should not treat him like he walks on water.
Sam Taulelei said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:22pm | Report comment
Peter K, agreed.
Nice work with the stats by the way, I’m still trying to wade my way through it all and marry it with the match footage - I know, I know - rugby tragic. Enjoy reading your posts.
Sam Taulelei said | September 1st 2008 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
Mudskipper
“New Zealand have one win out of last five at Ellis Park 1:5 but haven’t played there since Aug 2004 before that 1997.”
Good point and one that wasn’t lost on Jake White who asked why SARU didn’t provide the Boks with home ground advantage and schedule all their test matches against NZ at Ellis Park since it’s their spiritual home of rugby and a ground where other teams struggle to play well although OJ did point out France’s excellent record at the ground, but since when have the French conformed to the rest of the rugby world!!!!
ohtani's jacket said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:15pm | Report comment
In hindsight, the NZRU were smart to allow Deans to coach the Crusaders this season.
He coached some key players into form & wasn’t able to concentrate on the Australians in the Super 14. If the All Blacks win in Brisbane, some of Deans’ work will be visible in what the All Blacks do well and what Crusaders sides have always done well against Australian sides.
Nevertheless, there’s been plenty of kneejerk reactions this year and they’ve been followed by some huge turnarounds. I doubt anybody is writing the Aussies off yet. I expect the All Blacks to win and I’ll be disappointed if they don’t, but if the Aussies change their game plan anything is possible.
Paul said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
Left arm spinner, the props continued to be lynched over our poor pack. I agree that the props are the powerhouse and when they are going forward, the whole team is going forward. But, the props need to be secured by the second rowers, hence forming the TIGHT five. We are loose up front so it just aint the props!
Also, count how often in one game we see the tight five standing in the back line!! What the heck is that all about? They don’t have the ball handling to be receiving rocketed passes from backs on the run!! Why aren’t they at the breakdown? A point where we lose so much ball? Plus, our forwards do not have the mongrel that the Saffa and AB forwards have!
How about no more games at altitude? A place that obviously, according to all the above stats, so greatly favours one team! While we are at it, how about we outlaw the Haka? Just like the Welsh did in Cardiff last year! And, just a thought, make Refs accountable, maybe from their game payment, for their blistering errors: making special mention to Butch James illegally clearing ball from back of our ruck on saffa try line 2 mins into game, Video ref awarding try to ABs in dying moment against Wallabies at Eden Park giving ABs the bonus point 4th try, Missed penalty try to ABs against Wallabies in Sydney when Drew Mitchell (i think) took down Sivivatu (i think) without ball right on try line. I’m a rugby tragic but starting to get well p*ssed off with screw ups changing game results!
Mr Mac said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:32pm | Report comment
Wow!
Miss a day & one can’t keep up with a “Roar” like this (Been in Melbourne all day -work)
The bottom line in any game of Rugby is forward domination - particularly at the breakdown.
Blame whomever you like but the Aus forwards were 10 seconds behind the play for the last 75 mins of the game.
It did not change all that much when the “reinforcments” arrived.
They lost it in their “minds”.
Pitty help the backs when there are no forwards.
ohtani's jacket said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:44pm | Report comment
Training with two sets of forwards combinations probably didn’t help, but they couldn’t get their hands on the ball.
I couldn’t understand why AAC kept kicking it back. After the first two or three South African tries, you’d think the Wallabies would’ve counter attacked.
Paul said | September 1st 2008 @ 11:47pm | Report comment
Thats why AAC need to sit on the bench next match. As stated previously, it’s a thinking man’s game and not many, including AAC, were thinking!
jools-usa said | September 2nd 2008 @ 12:13am | Report comment
Hey, enough with the gnashing of teeth over “the greatest margin ever”, etc.
When down by 4 tries & panting your lungs out, who cares if final score
rivals basketball?
Let’s put this behind, reorganize, and realize we’ve had some good wins, and remember a game in
OZ a few years ago (Sydney, I think), where Boks were hammered by W’s.
The score In the forties?
Jools-USA
Danny said | September 2nd 2008 @ 12:18am | Report comment
I think Phil Waugh - The Nugget - is a great player. Yes, he has been out of form recently BUT to claim that he has never been of test standard, as Spiro and others have is just ridiculous. Let’s not forget that until this year he has pushed/challenged Smith at every turn. Indeed for awhile both of them were EASILY among the top 3 or 4 breakaways in the world! Also, how can you expect Waugh to be in form when he only gets 10 minutes off the bench every game - his story is starting to look like poor old Whitaker’s. Geez, what a waste that was. He could’ve easily played 50 tests.
Im glad to see Mitchell back into test selection - Ive always been a fan, sure he has his dodgy moments but he’s a confidence player who could be great…
Does anyone else agree with me on this fact: IMO Mat Rogers was the greatest POTENTIAL League convert but was hampered due to injury and the fact that the selectors seemed to be against him. Dell was a joke and it is only VERY recently that Tuquiri has found consistency. As I mentioned in a post elsewhere I couldn’t understand it when the Great Man Campo bagged him as, IMO Rogers was the only player who has come close to Campo in years in terms of freakish ability. If only he’d been playing for the Wallabies since he was 17 rather than mucking around in Bris-Vegas or its Sydney equivalent, the prejudiced embarressment that is the suburb of Cronulla…
I do think Mortlock should consider retiring at the end of the year. His is still very inspirational and quite solid but we really need to get someone coming through - also his bald dome is blinding me!
Paul said | September 2nd 2008 @ 12:22am | Report comment
Paul,( this could get confusing), spiro hasn’t criticised the skill of league players coming to union, rather the defensive aspects. There is no doubt leaguies are better tacklers, it is the positional play in defence when the lines of attack and defence are more fluid,as in union where league guys can be found wanting. This means that if the wallabies adopted a more disciplined approach to defence as they did when they won 2 world cups Tahu would not look so lost. There has to be more communication and manning up in defence.
Paul said | September 2nd 2008 @ 12:27am | Report comment
Paul, I understand, and agree, with what you are saying. What I was trying to get across was that, in my opinion, the leaguies do not adapt to the game so well. and just to reply to
DANNY, Matt Rogers’s major problem was attitude. I accept that he sometimes pulled off a great move, although not often enough for my liking. P.S. Why IMO Rogers (maybe stupid qstn but still confused on this side of the screen)
ohtani's jacket said | September 2nd 2008 @ 12:44am | Report comment
How bad is Barnes’ shoulder?
Tahu and Mortlock were both awful at inside centre & I doubt Cross would be much better. Inside centre is such a difficult position to fill. I have no idea why Deans played Tahu at 12, other than pressure from gavin and LAS. He’s not the type of second five Deans usually plays.
Everybody knows Deans would’ve played Bateman at 12 if he was coaching the All Blacks. He should’ve put him on the wing. That’s where he belongs. His defence wouldn’t have been any better, but he doesn’t know how to play rugby yet. The ARU pay these league guys so much money they have to stick them in the Wallabies to get any kind of visable return on their investment, but if Tahu wanted to play rugby, why’d he stick with league as a kid?
Anyway, he needs a more solid apprenticeship and I reckon he’s too old.
Benjamin said | September 2nd 2008 @ 12:50am | Report comment
Valid point by Danny. A few weeks ago countless Roar contributors were clamouring for Waugh to be the starting 7.
LeftArmSpinner said | September 2nd 2008 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Rangi, great point about character being founded in the heat of battle.
OJ, it is money well spent as regards Dingo. He was held in high regard by aust S14 followers. His trackrecord is excellent and just think about the alternatives, Alan Jones, Link and then consider his recent predecessors, Jones and Knuckles. Dingo was a no brainer. Whether he has the troops is another story. He has the backs, I believe, but the ticker in the forwards is doubtful.
Few current wallabies regularly play the confrontational, physical game now required at test level, and in particular, at the breakdown. Except Horwill and Elsom, I am convinced that they dont play this confrontational game instinctively or naturally or with any great enjoyment.
We have players who can get up for one game, play physically and win big games.
Getting up regularly and consistently for physical games that require you to go beyond your natural and instinctive limits and is impossible. Hence the Wallabies streaky performances.
Sam, I agree with you about Dingo. He has given the incumbents first go and they have proven unable to play to Dingo’s required standards and cant play the “youth card”. For the longer term future of the Wallabies, they must go, after the Brisbane game.
Mark H said | September 2nd 2008 @ 9:09am | Report comment
We’ll be right. I think the Bris test will be a corker. We will play better for a bit of a kicking. Possibly some changes, Smith must start. Big Cliffy needs a rev up prior to kick off.
You cant analyse this to much, youll do you head in. Next thing the trainers running water will get a serve as well.
JohnB said | September 2nd 2008 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Mark H, you’re right, those trainers were pretty pathetic.
True Tah said | September 2nd 2008 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Sam T,
Pretoria is also at altitude as well, and I can remember a game a few years ago when the ABs gave the Boks a real toweliing there, I think the final score was 52-16?
True Tah said | September 2nd 2008 @ 9:35am | Report comment
Mark H,
if the Wallabies play like that again, Deans should ban the trainers from giving them any water at all during the game.
LeftArmSpinner said | September 2nd 2008 @ 9:36am | Report comment
I have just read Spiro’s SMH column. He refers to the lack of hard footy played by Aussie kids, by comparison to NZ counterparts. We will ignore that the Aust S/boys beat NZ last year, albeit at home.
The Sydney Schools comp is disfunctional in the extreme and has been that way for too long. The best don’t play the best. Nor do they have to play in confronting and difficult venues and crowds.
Last weekend was supposed to be the grand final weekend for all MNZ comps in Sydney. All of the games were to be played at Rat park, but were postponed because of the rain, yes, a few drops on saturday afternoon and evening.
I return to my point, above in the previous post, the future Wallabies are just not tough enough, at a fundamental and instinctive level.
Mr Mac said | September 2nd 2008 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Left Arm
Read Paul Sheean’s article in the Oinion Pages of yeaterdays SMH
More for your ideas
LeftArmSpinner said | September 2nd 2008 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Mr MAc, thanks for the heads up. Ugly!
mudskipper said | September 2nd 2008 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Peter K…thanks for all your stats, I could only find the last game stats at rugby heaven…is there an archive I’ve missed at that site?
LeftArmSpinner….the Brumbies player you’re thinking of is Radike Samo is an Australian rugby union player born in Nadi (Fiji) on July 9, 1976. This 1.97 m, 111 kg lock or flanker played 41 games for the ACT Brumbies between 2000 and 2006. He is known for his one-handed ball grip, and is acknowledged among Brumbies fans as a running forward with the ability to burst through tackles. He now plays with an English club.
To be fair-minded it was always going to be difficult for Deans in his first year with no real preparation time. If an Ellis Park result happens next year Deans won’t be our favourite NZ cousin and he can expect to be toasted like others…However Deans does handle the media more wisely and will choose to say nothing and avoid the unnecessary comment which the media prey upon.
The last Coach Knuckles wasn’t prepared to take risk, just tried to clone Matt Giteau as 9, 10 &12 and insisted S14 coaches bubble rap their Wallabies…and in the end had little to show for his endeavours and a poor RWC…Eddie Jones always had too many lines for the media and wanted to over explain events…but did at least get the Wallabies to the previous RWC final…
I guess Pat Howard made most of the player recommendations. However I suspect Deans had his eye one a few others to develop like Tahu, Hynes, Burgess, Alexander, Horwill and Cross…What Deans, Williams and Foley have achieved together is more than reasonable this season with a new Halves combination, new Fullback, Winger and Second row combo. I don’t believe Deans is a coach which walks away from developing a player unless the player blows up or doesn’t do the work…However I do think that next years Wallabies could look quite different.
The Australian Super 14 teams will be all the stronger in 2009 for the Wallabies coaching teams work this year. The Australian S14 teams really have 3 new coaches, Hickey, Friend and Mooney (still new & Australia A coach). I hope they work openly with Deans and Williams.
Lefty…Rathbone first season was special however he played to long with injury for Wallabies coach Eddie Jones and privately managed his problem… if he has overcome his knee injury after 18 months out…I think he still has more to offer. Like many great players he just knows where to be…I always thought he would make a good 12, he has excellent defence, quick, with good step. We will see what Brumbies coach Andy Friend does with him next season.
I think a few of the Wallabies pack need to take some of the defensive work of Palu so he can strengthen his run and break the line…Palu does the work however he doesn’t have speed…
mudskipper said | September 2nd 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Peter K…The George Smith stats are up there with Richie McCaw…
LeftArmSpinner said | September 2nd 2008 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Thanks Skip!! Samo, fantastic runner but “found wanting at test Level” as Roy and Hg would say!
I agree with you. Rathbone has the build and skill to be a great 12 or 13, if he still has the physical gifts. he was a 13 in SA teams, and captain. Still, got sliced and diced by a prop!!!! Ha, Ha!!
Peter K said | September 2nd 2008 @ 10:58am | Report comment
mudskipper (and anyone else) - Its called hacking!
I happened to keep them in excel because I have always been interested in the stats, if you notice I have trotted them out now and again before this.
The link in rugby heaven is just a file stored on a web server.
http://stats.rugbyheaven.com.au/rugbyheaven/playerstats8.aspx
To access the other games change the playerstats8 to say playerstats7.aspx to access the stats for game 7.
They have stuffed up or overridden playerstats1 , it is a duplicate of another game.
Peter K said | September 2nd 2008 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Rathbone would be the best backup or even starter at 12 if he got back fit AND Friend selected him at 12 for a season.
mudskipper said | September 2nd 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Thanks Pete K…
Hugh Dillon said | September 2nd 2008 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
1. To take the discussion in a slightly different direction, it may cheer the history buffs up that in 1961 the Wallabies lost in Joburg to Sth Africa 28-3, 8 tries to nil [44-3 in today's scores]. Van Zyl (winger) scored 3 in the first half. The SA press denounced the Wallabies as a club side presumptously playing the world champions. Two years later the world champs were matched by the Wallabies over a 4-match series and beaten in Joburg. According to the 1963 team, the Sth Africans made sure that they tied the series in the 4th game when the local referee blew the Wallabies off the park.
2. Spiro Zavos in today’s Sydney Morning Herald suggests that Hoyles ought replace Waugh in the pack. There is merit in the suggestion — Hoyles was by far the best player on the park in the Randwick v Easts game on Saturday this week. He was often first to the ball and he plays the link role between backs and forwards brilliantly.
stuff happens said | September 2nd 2008 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
Rangi & Sam T - entirely agree.The Wallabies better ’stand up’ in Bne win, lose or draw.
The one thing I really don’t understand about the ‘Boks is how a team who looked so ordinary and lose to the AB’s without scoring a point, then one week later look equally ineffective going down to Australia ,then one week after that turn around and inflict an absolute lathering on much the same Australian team who looked hapless?
Something is missing for me - I don’t get it even after 140 posts!
joeb said | September 2nd 2008 @ 7:09pm | Report comment
Dawgie,
“Dunning is a disgrace to anyone who has lined up as a front row player. Just seeing that butterball in a wallabies jersey just makes me want to cry and trun of the TV.”
Poor bloke had a off night, as did several others in our forwards contingent. Happens when yuo don’t get enough game time, or yuo’re out of sorts. Maybe if we’d won some decent lineout ball rather than so many crooked throws — maybe they should try Palu at hooker? He couldn’t throw any more crooked — Dunny would’ve come good. (You know we’ve currently got a chap up in Georgia [up Russia way] on the lookout for some new ‘prop blood’ in the form of ex-Georgian wrestlers and weightlifters. Who knows, the ARU scout might come good with a couple, though it’s an insult to our FRU [as you know, Front Rowers Union], and rightly so.)
“At the risk of failing to sound totally positive about the Jo’burg game (and believe me I try) allow me to confess that the main reason that I’m delighted that the Brisbane game is 2 weeks away is because that’s about how long it’s going to take my TV repairer guy to put all the parts together after the kicking I gave it.”
Blinky, watchout for the RSPCTV.
True Tah said | September 2nd 2008 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
Stuff Happens,
I think the Boks were going to come good sooner or later, they have far too many talented players to lose all their home games…unfortunately it had to be the Wallabies who were the recipient of the hiding dished out, and deep down I think Robbie Deans knew that this could well be the case.
The defensive errors made by the Wallabies did contribute to the scoreline, at times the Boks played like they had 20 guys on the paddock.
LeftArmSpinner said | September 3rd 2008 @ 8:25am | Report comment
stuff, Its quite simple. Attitude. All other factors have been eliminated by the Wallabies win the previous week.
They, the Boks, simply wanted it more. They had their backs to the wall.
I find this extraordinary for teams representing their countries, But it is the reality. That’s team sport!!!
At international level, the difference between teams such as in the 3N is very small, in real terms.
stuff happens said | September 3rd 2008 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Thanks guys.So, Hugh Dillon to follow your point,one week Australia beats the Sringboks 27-15 and the following week loses 8-53 to the same team. Is this the greatest turnaround in the history of Test match rugby? Sheek?
LeftArmSpinner said | September 3rd 2008 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Guys, Having read the rugby media over the past few days, the consensus that Tahu had a shocker and the team underperformed drastically.
So, I have reviewed the tape, as they say, to get the full story. At 7.31 minutes into the game, Mortlock dropped a regulation pass from Cordingley in the 22. He chased it back into the in goal and then tried to pass it to Hynes. This was a sign that the lack of oxygen was affecting him and he was meant to be the captain.
58 seconds later, came the first try.
The First Try:
As the ball went across the field, it was 4 Wallabies on three Boks. regulation defending: It was Palu on Janties; Tahu free; Mortlock on Bekker, Nokwe free and Hynes deeper waiting for the grubber.
First mistake: Mortlock, particularly as captain, clearly gave no instruction to those around him, leaving Tahu to choose who to take. They had sufficient time to line up.
Second Mistake: Mortlock lined up on the wrong guy. He should have been on the winger, leaving Bekker for Tahu and still having Hynes to cover the grubber.
Third mistake: Having lined up on Bekker, Mortlock failed to track him as he hit the line. Didnt even get a hand on him.
Tahu correctly chose the ball carrier and attempted to close down the ball V’s take Bekker at the last minute, probably miss him anyway and release Nokwe outside and behind Mortlock just a metre out from the line and certain to score.
Second try: Although the tap kick gave them little time to line up, the defensive line benefitted from the equivalent manpower, well spread, initially, and narrow channel to defend.
Boks 9 on McMenniman on Boks 9, Tahu on Burger on Tahu, Mortlock on Boks 12 and Hynes on Nokwe. Mortlock didnt see Boks 12 coming from deep, didnt track him, Hynes came in on the 12 and left Nokwe free to score.
Third try: A three man overlap where Hynes, was not on his man and Mortlock and AAC were stranded together in midfield. Tahu came across in cover in vain. Mortlock and AAC just stopped.
Fourth try: It was 5 on 1, hardly Tahu’s fault.
Last try: Mortlock, at 12, didn’t cover defend when de plessis went thro on a wallaby slipped. Mortlock could have closed it down there and then but didnt.
As regards Tahu’s attack, very little sign of it, but a few nice touches.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that it was a great performance. But analysis of the facts does not support that he had a shocker, particularly when compared to others, such as Mortlock or AAC, Tuqiri or even Hynes!
ohtani's jacket said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Mate your boy had a shocker. He was completely at sea.
He didn’t know whether to act as a second tackler or stay back in defence. He was lost. You can see in the footage that he’s following the ball at all times. He lef the gap for Bekker to run through.
Having said that, the entire backline had a shocker.
The Wallabies didn’t expect the Boks to throw it wide. The second try was a perfect example of that. They were bunched up waiting for a forward to take it up. The Boks showed some beautiful hands and their passing was out of this world. Forget about being in two minds, the Wallabies were in three minds — right, up the middle, left. The ball went to ground on the third try, but the overlap was still on.
If they’d drifted wide, the Boks would’ve scored up the middle.
They had no clue how to stop the Boks.
Tahu was useless, but they kept giving the ball back to the Boks off Wallaby mistakes. Not a good idea when the Boks have their tail up. And the Aussie forwards gave up after 20 minutes because they’re soft.
stillmissit said | September 3rd 2008 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
OJ - I think you are right but this seems to be the result of a failure of philosophy as much as anything else.
These guys are so mentally soft that anything can happen to them depending on how they are feeling or emoting on the day. They, like most people have fallen into the American bullshit idea of feeling ‘confident’ and several of the pre game chatterings had this as a theme. You earn confidence from hard work and when you are down the hard work pays off in the tough stuff. The opposite of being ‘confident’ is dropping your pants like Saturday because as you enter the realm of reality and a couple of things go wrong, or you dont do the work when it is needed, then your confidence disappears like the bullshit dust it is.
Real confidence is earned only when worked hard for and it shows in being able to do the same difficult thing regardless of what is happening around you or how you are feeling. Just like Horan, Farr-Jones, Eales, Kefu etc did in many tight matches or like Dean Jones or Alan Border did in cricket. I expect that these guys will do the hard work to ensure that even if they run into some problems the work they have done will get them through it. Not some bull idea about feelings and emotions regarding ‘confidence’.
This was more like Custers last stand than a massacre at Jo’burg because like Custers men they all ran around like gutless, headless idiots whilst the Indians slaughtered them.
Mr Mac said | September 3rd 2008 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
Stilmissit
misinterpretaion of history does no justice to your argument.
I think if you check Custer’s men were brave & fought heroically - bad leadership and tactics were at fault and while many will not admit it the opposition were the better team
LeftArmSpinner said | September 3rd 2008 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
OJ, have a look at the game. With reasonable time to do so, Mortlock lined up on Bekker, not Tahu. Once you do that, you must bring him down, when you are on your own goal line.
Mortlock’s decision left Tahu on Janties with Palu. Mortlock then failed to even touch him as Bekker hit the line. It is made worse by the fact, that as, Stillmissit says, the attitude, and particularly that of the captain, was not resolute.
Have a look at the video http://www.foxsports.com.au/video
Remember, this was in the 7th minute of the game and the capt has gone missing twice aleady.
ohtani's jacket said | September 3rd 2008 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
I dunno if any side goes into a big Test feeling confident, but they can sure as hell go into it feeling over-confident (if that makes any sense.)
It might have been a different Test if Australia had scored the first try, but as soon as it was 12-3, they needed to slow the game to a crawl. They really needed to buy some time in that Test & AAC was foolish not to look for touch more often. There seems to be these romantic notion under the ELVs that both teams are going to play loose, running rugby with perfect execution and tit for tat length of the field tries, but we haven’t seen that so far. The All Blacks were suckered into the running game in Sydney & the Wallabies were suckered into it in Jo’Burg.
Whoever controls the Test wins the game, & as beautiful as the Boks handling was, they really controlled the game with their kicking game just like the other Tri-Nations victories this year.
Leadership seems to be a problem with the Wallabies this year. I know people are glad to see the back of Gregan and Larkham, but those two had nous regardless of how aging and slow they were.
I don’t think it’s any surprise that the Wallabies have struggled since Barnes was injured. He seems to be the most astute back Australia have and should be first five. Giteau 12, Mortlock/Cross 13, Mitchell 15. AAC on the bench.
Recidivist said | September 3rd 2008 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
OJ, good call on Tahu. He had a shocker.
LAS, might be time to fall in love with someone different until Tahu comes good (which he will with time, and time is somethign he hasn’t had).
The problem was all ‘upstairs’. They didn’t have to win the game and once the Boks got fired up the Wallabies backed off (apart from Elsom).
ohtani's jacket said | September 3rd 2008 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
LAS,
They were lining up so that Mortlock would cover the winger, but they all got stuck watching Jantjes.
Mortlock expected Jantjes to pass to Bekker, but Jantjes stepped inside Palu. Mortlock pulled up & was looking at the tackle. It was a beautiful offload & that’s the reason the try was scored, but Tahu didn’t need to commit to that tackle. It was worse from the reverse camera angle because you saw him come right off his line.
If you freeze frame it, Tahu is standing there watching Palu make the tackle. Bekker is running a fabulous line, but Tahu misread the play completely. Tahu was there to cover Jantjes if he broke the tackle and mark the inside runner, not wrap Jantjes up. None of them expected the offload, but Tahu took his eyes off Bekker and that created the gap.
Mortlock had about as much chance of catching Bekker as the other two Wallaby defenders on the chase.
Tahu needed to trust Palu to make the tackle and cover the receiver, but it was all over when Tahu turned to focus his attention on Jantjes. Palu was always going to bring him to ground, but tackling him from behind meant the offload was on. Tahu probably sensed that, but stepping in like that is suicide.
It was a hell of a pass from Butch James and Jantjes left them mesmorised
ohtani's jacket said | September 3rd 2008 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
I don’t blame Tahu. It was his first start and he was nervous as hell. He didn’t get any good touches with the ball to build any kind of confidence, instead he was defending against a Boks team who could suddenly attack from all angles.
Even on that blunder, the pace was too much. The Boks cleared the ball too quickly and the passing was too good. That pass from James is why the defensive line didn’t align itself very well. It’s easy to freeze frame it and see where the gap was created, but they had split seconds to recognise whether the Boks would use the numbers out wide or if Jantjes was going to step back inside.
The All Blacks probably would’ve effed that up too. Smith did the same thing against the Wallabies at Eden Park when he decided to make the tackle instead of drift wide. That was off a beautiful lineout and Ii’s not easy to defend when the backs are receiving the ball at pace.
Nevertheless, Tahu should’ve started against Italy. I remember when the All Blacks had to prompt Jonah about his positioning. LAS may be right that Mortlock should’ve barked some instructions, but Mortlock was sucking in the wind himself.
stillmissit said | September 3rd 2008 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
Mr Mac - No interpretation of history, just reread Black Elk and in it there are several versions by indian eye witnesses who all say they broke and ran on foot firing their guns in the air like crazy men. The only time they fought hard was when it was obvious they were going to die and a small contingent had dug in behind their dead horses. Most analysis I have read say that had they held their structure, retreated sensibly and then dug in they would have been able to hold them until reinforcements could get there.
Sounds a bit like the Wallabies in Jo’Burg had they dug in and fought they may not have won but they would have come out of the battle with fewer scars.
stillmissit said | September 3rd 2008 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
OJ/LAS Tahu strikes me as a person who has his feet on the ground and I bet he will watch this tape over and over as the lessons in defensive structures are many, as both of you have pointed out. He will digest this information and I expect an improvement in his game next time out and a general improvement during his European trip. I would be very disappointed if the political pressure to drop him from this tour forced him to stay behind. I always thougt his best would show next year but he must get some exposure at the top level to come to grips with it. Another S14 season is nice but still doesnt ensure you of success at test level.
Mortlocks on field captaincy, which I think has mostly been good was badly missing and I think Deans needs to also come to grips with the Wallaby weakness of dropping the bundle when it gets too heavy. This has been the case since McQueens time and Deans needs to address this weakness. I would be asking some questions from the leading sports psychologists.
For Mortlock and Deans there is no ducking this bullet.
Mr Mac said | September 3rd 2008 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Stillmissit
Don’t know the “Black Elk” but history is facinating. I have not been near Custer for a while but I was under the impression that it was only one small platoon that “cut and ran” down a gully. Recent (when I last read) archiology indicates that different groups were isolated and cut off. They dismouted and fought to the end.
Also, one platoon (section, whatever) in a different part of the battle actually survived and were releived after two days
stillmissit said | September 3rd 2008 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
Mr Mac - yes it is only interpretation and as there were indians as the only reporters. Black Elk and some of his friends were there although B Elk was a young teenager and didn’t fight, his friends did. The winners get to write history (as the Boks will do from Saturday).
You are right Custer split his command into 2 with Major Reno being the part that survived. They were scared off by Sitting Bull’s lieutenant Gall in a flanking movement and then dug in until relieved 2 days later. None of Custers detachment survived as we all know. There was a very brave man (most probably Capt French) who stood and fought and maybe in terms of Jo’burg this could have been Elsom or Horwill.
It will be interesting to see who survives the Wallabies last stand in Jo’Burg.
LeftArmSpinner said | September 3rd 2008 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
Recidivist, I was waiting for this comment, despite it being on a different thread. It is valid to connect the dots. However, and I am personally in a quandry as to who should play 12 next week, ’cause Mortlock, a seasoned player and captain, went missing all day.
My initial proposal, as laid out in the previous post, was that Tahu would play in a competent team performance and grow in stature as a result.
Perversely, I think that it requires today’s “most experienced” team (for the final time) being on the park to attempt to win the B Cup and then rebuild for the future with some both selections on the Spring Tour. Holmes, Alexander, Beale, Pocock, Brown, Cooper, Mumm, Burgess, Tahu and Cross and a few dirt trackers for the mid week games et al.
Knawing at me is that others have been blooded into critical and challenging games and risen to the occasion: Barnes in RWC, Kearns in B Cup, etc. on the principle that if they are good enough they will stand up to any challenge. Lets see what they have got in terms of mental toughness. Tahu is slightly different case, but only slightly!!!
LeftArmSpinner said | September 3rd 2008 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
OJ, I dont disagree with your appraisal and that of SMI. The question now is : is the 3N important to win?? I believe it is.
Then, who do you select to win it?
Mr Mac said | September 3rd 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
Stillmissit
It will be interesting to see who survives. The one thing about Rugby is that if the forwards are not functioning the backs have no chance.
In the battle of Jo’burg the forwards were too slow to the breakdown. And as I said here before not much changed when the reinforcemts arrived.
When a whole team goes “off” there’s not much point in blaming individuals (as has been the case by many here).
Realit probably says there will be a few sacrificed but most will live to fight on
Jerry said | September 3rd 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Left Arm - A win in Brisbane won’t win the Bledisloe Cup for the Wallabies, the AB’s could still win the HK fixture and tie the series 2-2 (and retain as holders). The Wallabies can win the TN in Brisbane of course.
Recidivist said | September 3rd 2008 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
LAS, glad you are out there. From my armchair view I reckon Tahu will make the conversion really well. However, the nuances of Union are too much for some of these guys to overcome quickly. As Tahu has said himself, he has to think when he plays Union. The small subtle differences of Union make it much harder to read play and it will take some time for him to catch up.
I have no intention of writing Tahu off but as you have mentioned, others have stepped up more quickly. There are also some players in the background who could be promoted and do well. I particularly liked watching Rob Horne do well playing int he position everyone said was Tahu’s. For too long now, NSW have had some young players and they ditch them, but when they buy players (Sailor, Rogers) they play them all the time even if they are off form.
Of the players you mentioned I like the look of Mumm and Pocock. Beale still needs more time and he has to learn to get tougher and tackle like Mitchell or Horne.
LeftArmSpinner said | September 3rd 2008 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
jerry, sorry. I meant the 3N. Horne would also be my choice. He stood up brilliantly in S14. But, he seems to have vanished. He is signed to Southern Dist. but not in any team.
Maybe he is just playing touch with MIA Beale in Moore Park!!!
Carter is the one likely to be jetisoned. 100% effort but not as naturally gifted as others. Geez, tho, you would want to have him around, if you could and he was fit. Brock James is also cutting it up in Europe.
ohtani's jacket said | September 3rd 2008 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
A lot depends on whether Deans wants a traditional NZ second five or an Aussie inside centre. Prior to Barnes’ injury, they were switching the pivot position depending on the play & I think that’s best for Australia at this stage.
Ultimately he’ll have to go with a traditional Aussie inside centre, since I doubt anything will change at the grassroots level. Instead of earmarking Tahu as that guy, Tahu needs a full season in competition with other guys for that spot.
I’m sure Tahu will come off the bench in Brisbane.
stillmissit said | September 3rd 2008 @ 5:21pm | Report comment
There was a sports announcement on 2GB on the way home 15 mins ago that Deans is going to drop Tahu from the squad. If this is true I think its a bit harsh as nobody played well in that game. I am the last one to support Leaguies coming across but it just ain’t fair to blame a guy with such little experience as he has. It smacks of Pat Howard in Dunedin where the loss was blamed on him.
Mr Mac - I agree with you It is a total waste of time to blame individuals for as total a team loss as that one was. If blame must be handed out it must go to the manager in charge Deans, and the Captain at the coalface Mortlock. Examining others in microcosm such as AAC or Tahu is nonsense they were just blown away all of them.
Recidivist said | September 3rd 2008 @ 5:23pm | Report comment
OJ, you accidentally hit th nail on the head. The bench has for some time been the Wallabies weakness. We can drag a reasonable 15 out but then the bench payers are sometimes not quite good enough and sit the whole game out on the bench.
In a way I hope the Wallabies lose so that Deans spends more time looking beyond the squad to guys like Horne and Mumm.
The long term plan for Tahu must be a successful Super 14 to properly be ready for the Wallabies.
Paul said | September 3rd 2008 @ 9:27pm | Report comment
Please somebody!!!
What is this “amp” that keeps popping up in posts…especially by OJ? It will probably be something I should have clicked to but so far, NO clicking!!! LOL
Mr Mac said | September 3rd 2008 @ 9:45pm | Report comment
Paul
You mean the “&” that keeps appearing?
If so ( and I am no guru) but I think its because of the keyboard settings on their PC (are they Mac users?) and when they use the ampersand symbol (&) the control codes transmitted are interpreted by the Roar’s processors differently and so the odd characters are displayed.
I am open to correction
Paul said | September 3rd 2008 @ 9:53pm | Report comment
Mr Mac
Thanks mate. I am on a mac, does that make a difference? Anyway, appreciate your explanation.
ohtani's jacket said | September 3rd 2008 @ 10:57pm | Report comment
I’m using a Japanese OS, but it looks normal to me.
Paul said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:03pm | Report comment
Well, even tho the post is re the Joburg game, I wanna know yr thoughts on the Bne game against ABs. Assuming Kaplan is not the ref, I think Wallabies will win this match and therefore winning tri nations. Then off the HK for 4th Bledisloe and ABs will retain. Opinions?
Benjamin said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
I think the result depends entirely on Vickermann and Barnes. If they’re injured it could be a blow-out.
Paul said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:12pm | Report comment
When is Berrick due back in? Hopefully Moore will be on the paddock as will Smith and Mitchell! Any Chance Mcaw will have the flu??? LOL
ohtani's jacket said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
Kaplan is the ref.
I think the All Blacks should win, but you never know. We don’t know how badly injured McCaw is, for example. The All Blacks won’t have put the fear of God into the Wallabies with their hit out against Samoa, but I think we have the better pack and if Australia don’t get their defensive lines sorted we have the ability to score.
Paul said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:23pm | Report comment
When did Richie get hurt? Against Samoa?
Sam Taulelei said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:25pm | Report comment
Paul
OJ confirmed in another post that the referee for the Brisbane test is none other than Jonathan Kaplan. I’m also on a Mac and only notice the anomaly with the use of the ampersand when I read the replies in Apple Mail but not on the Roar website, haven’t worked out why yet but I agree it’s annoying but I’ve learned to get used to it.
Sam Taulelei said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:27pm | Report comment
McCaw received bruising to his ribs against SA, that’s the extent his injury has been reported so far.
Paul said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:35pm | Report comment
Sam,
where would OJ have gotten that info on ref? That’s NOT happy news my friend!! Man I hope you are wrong bro!!
ohtani's jacket said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:40pm | Report comment
There’s a press release about the referees before the Tri-Nations begins:
September 13 Australia v New Zealand
Referee: Jonathan Kaplan
Assistants: Craig Joubert, Mark Lawrence
TMO: Johann Meuwesen
Paul said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:47pm | Report comment
Oh dear! So u aint wrong! Oh well, we’ll just have to be on our game big time.
ohtani's jacket said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:51pm | Report comment
I think Kaplan has been repaying us for Wellington 2000 all these years!
Paul said | September 3rd 2008 @ 11:58pm | Report comment
I think he has paid his debt by now!!!
jam said | September 4th 2008 @ 12:22am | Report comment
Stillmissit, i agree that blame shouldn’t be heaped on individuals. Still, I think some of us are being far too harsh and impatient judges of Deans, expecting 1998 all over again.
There are some key differences between the appointment of Rod McQueen and Robbie Deans. The main one is there was a far longer buildup to McQueen’s appointment and seemingly instant success.
McQueen coached the Waratahs in 1991-2, and was a Wallabies selector in 1994-5 before taking over at the Brumbies in 1996. He was clearly a settled part of the Australian Rugby hierarchy. Once there he had a good two years to develop some of his proteges, who later appeared in his Wallabies teams.
John O’Neill and the ARU were in a rush, understandably, to pick up Deans as a windfall from the AB’s before he got another offer. Because Deans had to finish off his last season at the Crusaders, he got less than a month between meeting the players in his capacity as a coach and their first game against the Irish.
In contrast, McQueen was appointed in September 1997, which makes you wonder if the ARU already had him in mind before the 61-22 thrashing in Jo-Berg.
McQueen had a NH tour and the Super 12 in 1998 to solely focus on his plan for the Wallabies, possibly with the ears of the Super 12 coaches as to any suggestions on player selection. This is a luxury Deans has not had.
Given the lack of time to develop and blood uncapped players - which he has done anyway with a very good rate of success - what was he supposed to do?
The 3N is a crucible, with the top 3 teams in the world playing each other consecutively. It’s hardly the time to take huge gambles at fixing long-term problems like the front row. Timana Tahu has experienced the kind of nightmare debut the 3N is capable of dishing out. I support Deans holding off on a few other players to avoid destroying their confidence and giving them baggage that he would have to work at undoing.
Sure, sometimes blooding players in high pressure situations works. The Berrick Barnes example is more one of circumstance, as Larkham couldn’t play and Giteau was already set at 12. Horwill, Hynes and Cross have worked too, so credit thereto Robbie.
This lack of preparation time means that Deans has wisely not played his full hand. It also means majority of the Wallabies team picked itself. Pat Howard and David Nucifora probably still have a large amount of input in player selection.
Btw - who are the current selectors?
Give Robbie credit. I didn’t predict that the Wallabies would do as well as they have this year, given Marseille last year. I thought they’d finish last.
I’m amazed at the lack of patience displayed by some on this site here and in other threads who are adopting the attitude I used to in early high school in 95-97 of “I want a totally new team and I want them to win and I want them to win NOW!”
It should be obvious that it takes at least a full year to get a true indication of the impact a coach is having on a team. That’s how long McQueen had by the end of the 3N in 1998. That’s also close to the amount of time Eddie Jones took to make the Wallabies post a downturn, although the full effect of his mismanagement wasn’t felt until 2005. Deans has been given until the WC in 2011 to produce results, which I think is fair and achieveable.
I have heard some say they are sick of hearing about Deans the Messiah and that they think he hasn’t achieved anything that Connolly hadn’t already. Even if this is so, we’ve still won one in SA, something that Connolly never achieved. Some can attribute this to the Boks playing poorly rather than the Wallabies clearly beating them, but normally it’s the opposition not allowing a team to play well.
Either way, part of what we’re seeing now is to some extent a result of Connolly’s rebuilding of the team from the nadir of 2005, for which he deserves some credit.
So far, Deans this year is stacking up pretty damn well against McQueen in his first year given the constraints on him. So there are shades of 1997 as well. So what? Rome wasn’t built in a day. They managed to beat the Boks in Perth, unlike 1998. The Boks may be a weaker, definitely less consistent team than 1998. The ABs are definitely better this year than the 3N wooden spooners of 1998.
Going into Brisbane we are in a similar position to our last game in the 3N of 1998, where if we had won in SA against a strong team, we would have won the 3N. The ABs of today are comparable to the Boks of 1998, judging by their last two games, but a win (at home mind) would mean the 3N title as well. A respectable loss would still have Deans stacking up well in my book against McQueen in 1998.
So enough death-riding Robbie Deans! Maybe we are in a similar situation to 1996. We might not quite have the players ready yet to be world-beaters. We’ll find out soon enough. I have confidence we’ll get a lot better in the next four years.
jam said | September 4th 2008 @ 12:26am | Report comment
That is bad news about Kaplan. He’s pedantic and loves the sound of his own whistle. I would have preferred he do a swap with mark lawence or even joubert
Benjamin said | September 4th 2008 @ 12:34am | Report comment
Jam, Deans has been watching, recording and analysing various Australian players for years so it’s not like he’s been doing his job blindfolded. I think the only reason that people are being negative of Deans is because he was so overhyped in the first place - by the press and public.
ohtani's jacket said | September 4th 2008 @ 7:25am | Report comment
I don’t think anyone has been overly critical of Deans.
The NZ journos wrote the whole thing off as irrelevant, since Deans is the guy they wanted and they don’t know how the Brisbane Test will swing. Deans is pretty much exempt from criticism.
We’ll see how the Wallabies go in Brisbane, but they’re a tad bit lucky to be in this position.
stillmissit said | September 4th 2008 @ 8:06am | Report comment
Kaplan is a disaster for the Wallabies and always has been. His pedantic style will kill any chance of an open and fast game.
NZ by 10 points.
Jam good analysis between the 2 coaches. I always thought that the European tour is when we will start to see Deans real selections. Next season I would like to see us a bit more consistent, then 2010 builiding a winning ethos in the team and then a grand final against NZ for the WC would be magic to me.
LeftArmSpinner said | September 4th 2008 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Jam, Not sure how much relevance your comparisons have to this situation today. But, I do agree that there is a delayed/lagged effect to coaching and to this end, Connolly has made a positive contribution, as an interim coach, much better than Eddie.
Deans, and McQueen, both share the ability as man managers and the belief that elite rugby is essentially played above the shoulders and that players need to be “managed”.
It will be interesting to see who Dingo selects on the tour and then who he plays and in which position.
Anyway, I’m looking forward to the Brisbane game. There is a lot to play for for everyone!
True Tah said | September 4th 2008 @ 8:50am | Report comment
Jam,
whilst I appreciate MacQueen’s results, he really did it by using defence orientated game, and it was really boring to watch, the 1999 world cup was the most boring by far, despite having some outstanding Wallaby backline talent.
Deans’ Crusaders on the other hand have deservedly got a reputation for playing attractive expansive rugby.
Also annoyed when people say Deans is the same as Connolly and Jones, Deans is a hell of a lot more motivated than either of these two guys were, and I believe in 2011 we will appreciate how good this guy really is!
JohnB said | September 4th 2008 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Never quite understood the bagging Connolly keeps getting. Sure the QF last year was very ordinary, and he has to cop his share of the fall-out from that. However, they’d played well pretty much all year before that. A distant second in the second half against the AB’s in the last Tri-Nations game (probably the AB’s best passage of play that year), but 2 home wins and a strong away performance against SA. Beat whatever dross came down from the NH in June, and a very strong win over Wales in the pool match at the world cup. Deans may prove to have a better record which would let those of us who have no actual contact with him conclude he is a better coach, and I hope he does, but Connolly’s record is more than that one QF. To question his motivation draws a very long bow. Jones certainly tailed off badly, and there’s a lot of questioning of his approach and some of his selections - but he did get a relatively average team to a world cup final (in the process beating a team which had put 50 points on them a few months earlier) and again I don’t think motivation was ever his downfall.
And TT if you thought the 99 world cup was boring, you can’t have watched much of the last one!
LeftArmSpinner said | September 4th 2008 @ 9:51am | Report comment
True Tah, I agree with John B, have another look at the RWC99 final. Jones and connolly had their moments. Jones got em to within a wicker of a RWC win, although, never with fluidity or the feeling that they had reached their potential, a bit like a badly tuned V6. Connolly filled a hole and brought on the scrum and some young guys. I know what happened, but not why it happened in the qtr final 07. IS it just the same lack of ticker we saw last week in JBurg? where have all the mongrels gone?
True Tah said | September 4th 2008 @ 9:58am | Report comment
JohnB,
I watched Tonga v South Africa, Fiji v Wales, Fiji v South Africa, USA v South Africa…all of these games had moments…the 99 world cup had the france v NZ QF and Pumas V ireland, but there were no strong performance from so-called minnows.
Who was the Takudzwa Ngewenye of the 1999 world cup? There was none.
Connolly was never a long term coach, he knew he was in for the short term…just listening to him, he didn’t seem enthusiastic or charismatic…Steady Eddie, well he is never going to win a crowd with his enthusiasm now is he?
Deans is the man, it is a long road, but I think he can create a strong team culture within the Wallabies, which creates the platform for success.
Rickety Knees said | September 4th 2008 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Leftie - TT - all - its all about LEADERSHIP!
The expression of ‘playing for each other’ is about creating a bond within the team that will withstand and rise up against adversity. However this has to be underpinned by inspirational on field leadership. Now I am a great fan of Morts as a player but he is too far away from the action. A great outside centre his - a great leader - I am sorry to say - he is not.
We have to find a forward who the others look up to - someone who does not flinch in the heat of the battle and somebody who is a good man manager (knows when to use the carrot and when to use the stick) ie past leaders like John Eales, Phil Kearns, Simon Poidevan, Buck Shelford, Sean Fitzpatrick etc
For mine Big Kev should lead the Spring Tour. He has mongrel, form, intellignce, size, is the always in the action and has captained Qld - he will be better for the complete leadership experience a tour provides and will be in his absolute leadership prime come the next WC.
Mr Mac said | September 4th 2008 @ 11:17am | Report comment
RE: The Ampresand (&) issue
From what people have been saying I think it is a combination of non US Keyboard and/or language settins on the users machine and the interpretr software that the Roar uses to generate the emails.
It has nothing to do with being either a Mac or other hardware
One for Zac et al
stuff happens said | September 4th 2008 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
LeftArmSpinner I agree with you. In the RWC 1/4 the Poms ran over our pack and despite the scoreline we didn’t look like being the better team almost from the ko.How players can go missing in a must win game like this is hard to fathom, except to say that sometimes we’re just not good enough and that includes the coach. A lot of it comes down to leadership.Look at the mess the AB’s got themselves into in their match against the French.
Last weekend in Jo’burg was unspeakable if you’re an Australian but pure joy if you’re a South African and I think we should agree that the ‘Boks were fantastic.
I agree that the Dingo is by far the best option for Australia but the Test next week is a huge test for him too.Losing I can handle; but the manner of losing is quite something else.
Some of the comments in the Sydney media by the returning players doesn’t give me much confidence, but maybe that’s unfair.
Paul said | September 4th 2008 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
Mr Mac;
Good research.
cheers
P.S. Wallabies by 5 in Bne!
Benjamin said | September 4th 2008 @ 8:28pm | Report comment
Tah, I recall France being very, very lucky to beat Fiji in their 99 WC group.
stuff happens said | September 5th 2008 @ 11:23am | Report comment
Benjamin you are quite right and I recall the ref ,who seemed to me to give an outrageous advntage to France, was Paddy O’Brien, but I could be wrong.I also recall South Africa being very lucky to beat France in RWC’95 to get to the final.Their No8 Rodruigez ’scored’ a try but it was disallowed under a pile of bodies . Ah well! such is sport