Behind the scenes of the Heineken Cup tournament

Benjamin said  | October 8th 2008 @ 4:09am | Report comment

Just a brief intro. to see if people are interested, and to see how it pans out on the screen. There are a few more groups to go so it depends on people’s reaction. If anybody wanted I could go into more detail too? Anyhow, enough…

Some interesting points that I missed out…

Mountauban only qualifed by virtue of Toulouse’s HC final appearance last year, however, despite their poor current standing in the Top 14 they only lost one game at home all last season, beating Stade Francais, Biarritz, Perpignan and Clermont in the process. They evntually finished 7th and considering their lack of star players it is evident that they are no mugs, so to speak. It is more than likely that they will ignore the competition in order to push up the Top 14. However if they do decide to compete then it will be an interesting away trip for the other 3 teams.

Munster will be their usual ferocious selves at home. The new stadium adds another 12,000 to the throng and the ground-shaking terraces have been retained. Clermont and Sale have taken a spanking here and it looks like McGahan, the new coach, has Munster firing on all cyclinders. Their midfield was much improved last year and Keith Earls has added a new impetus. A shaky scrum is often overcome through sheer determination however Clermont and Sale are monster scrummagers. The Munster lineout is often excellent and the back row as good as any in Europe, although far too much rests on the health of O’Gara. He is their controller and as much as Warwick is an encouraging replacement he is not of the same calibre. Only Leicester have ever managed to retain their trophy the next year thus Munster’s progress will be an intriguing process.

Clermont are beasts at home, pure and simple. They have a superb back three; Nalaga, Malzieu, Rougerie and Floch, an excellent midfield; Baby, Canale and Joubert, intelligent controlling half backs; Mignoni and James, and a superb pack; Ledesma, Scelzo, Jacquet, Privat, Bonnaire and Vermeulen. Pretty much the complete package. However in light of their continued final round losses in the Top 14 there are question marks over Clermont’s big game temperament. They didn’t qualify for the knockout stages last year becuase they chose, somewhat bizarely, to field weakened teams for their away games. Subsequently they absorbed some beatings and conceded some important bonus points. I imagine that Vern Cotter won’t make the same mistake again. Clermont could be big, big challengers.

Sale are a paradox. They have all the talent in Europe but none of the intent to match. They play awful, dull, defence-orientated game which is boring dross quite frankly. It is effective to a point but like my Father once said… “There’s always some one with a bigger punch than you!”. I think that somebody might be either Munster and Clermont. Hodgson kicked the most out of all fly-halfs in the GP last year and Sale love giving McAlister a crack at 60 metre penalties - which illustrates perfectly their style of rugby… if in doubt, give it a clout! The loss of Sebastien Bruno is bad news and if Chabal is contained then so are Sale. Quite a simple game plan really, all it demands is that you have plenty of muscle up front. Sale could either hang on in there due to their pack or get blown away. I wait with baited breath…

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Benjamin said  | October 8th 2008 @ 5:54am | Report comment

I understand what you’re saying Colin. The game against Gloucester was good, but the less said about Bristol and Irish the better. You have identified the key problem - Sale have players to produce exellent rugby. A good pack to win the ball and intelligent backs. However Saint-Andre has had no intention of Sale cutting loose for a good 18 months. It’s like having a Ferrari in the shed and driving an old 3 wheeler. Lamont, McAlister, Hodgson, Tait, Peel, Doherty etc…their instinct is to run and yet even in the final third of the pitch Saint-Andre has the team playing the percentages. The referee cannot be to blame for that.

I have seen all games this season either live on Sky, or on Rugby Club.

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Benjamin said  | October 8th 2008 @ 7:24am | Report comment

I wouldn’t write Sale off but it is dangerous to be playing under such constraints. Just look at what has happened to Biarritz ove rprevious seasons. I understand that the ELVs have necessitated the need for accuracy and simplicity, a team with the qualities of Sale will be doing itself a grand disservice if it were to fail through lack of ambition. Munster, Sale and Clermont all play a comparatively similar game and the group winner will be the team that can show that bit extra when required, or perhaps the team willing to take that extra risk.

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Benjamin said  | October 8th 2008 @ 7:53am | Report comment

Tah, Sireli Bobo got Caucau a trial at Metro Paris in the French 2nd division however Caucau never turned up, much to the disgust of Bobo who was hugely critical of Caucau in the media. H. Meyer said that he was expecting Caucau to turn up for a trial at Leicester but said he had already waited 3 weeks and there had been no contact. I would assume that he’s just bumming around in Fiji. There was a very interesting article about Caucau in an English paper a few weeks ago, by Stephen Jones incidentally . I think the argument that Stephen Jones was trying to put forward was that due to Caucau’s existence and life in Fiji he isn’t particularly equipped to deal with Europe, or contemporary society.

Delesau scored recently against Toulouse, when Montauban went down 10-41. At the end of Sept. he was the Top 14 top tryscorer with 4 tries. He’s a great player. Bizarre that he was so under utilised by Clermont last season.

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Skip said  | October 8th 2008 @ 9:02am | Report comment

Benjamin,
Slightly off subject but I beleive they have been trailling the free kick sanctions in the ProD2 in France.
Can you provide us with any feedback from the players,fans and coaches?
What is the general feeling regarding the ELV’s in France?

To everyone else please do not turn this into an ELV debate!!! I would just like to get some feedback!!!

Cheers

Skip

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hayden said  | October 8th 2008 @ 10:15am | Report comment

Benjamin

Thanks for the interesting overview. The HC seems to be the kind of terrific cosmopolitan competition that we sadly lack here in the SH. I for one would like to read more.

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Benjamin said  | October 8th 2008 @ 9:57pm | Report comment

Skip, not in the Pro D2 but in the Espoirs Championship, for the next 6 months, which is the French A league of the Top 14. I’ll have a look to see if I can find any reaction.

Davo, James has been supreb in France, far better than Parks. I think he was the Top 14 highest points scorer last year?! Admittedly he has had an armchair ride from the Clermont pack but he has been excellent, really very good. I suppose that is what happens when you get regular game time at the top end. If you play 35+ games a season then you have an extended period in which to develop your game. James is an accurate kicker who mixes his play well. Parks is just a kicker compared to James. Manny Edmonds also had an excellent few seasons at Perpignan. I don’t suppose it is a coincidence that they both played behind such strong forwards and their games improved.

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Benjamin said  | October 9th 2008 @ 12:23am | Report comment

Spiro, and everybody, I have submitted the next 3 groups under one article, offering only brief details - SH players, league position, key men etc. To save space I thought it would be better if I were to write a more detailed analysis of the teams using the crowd comment option.

The nature of the Top 14, market men and sugar daddies et al, means that there tends to be few actual rugby men who own the top clubs. Take the Toulon owner as an example, demanding immediate success just because he purchased Collins and Williams. These players were bought at the expense of developing a tight five thus the club is immediately behind the 8 ball, so to speak. France tends to have a slight inferiority complex whereby the idea of Super 14 rugby conjures up imagery of exotice greatness, therefore the Top 14 is filled with SH journeymen, Tomiki, S.Kefu, McIntyre etc, as opposed to the GP whose teams invested more wisely in better players; McAlister, Hayman, Jack, Latham etc. That is also why the T14 is seemingly obsessed with NRL players.

Incidentally the most successful club in the GP, Wasps, have the fewest foreign players and Dean Richards at Quins and Dean Ryan at Gloucester have spent the past two seasons developing young English players. To that extent the GP has developed a different emphasis and thought process. It is also no coincidence that teams like Quins, Gloucester and Northampton are playing a different style of rugby to the traditional English type. It is unfortunate then that the new EPS agreement between the RFU and the clubs means that teams who produce English internationals are not appropriately rewarded, thus Bath who had a superb English core last season have been forced to invest in foreign players in order to balance the books during the international periods. Slowly but surely the majority of GP teams have been creating a balance of English players and foreign players, as opposed to yesteryear when players like Warren Britz were brought in under the premise that they were automatically better than home-grown players, which is the attitude that the Top 14 seems to be persevering with currently.

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Ian Noble said  | October 10th 2008 @ 9:44pm | Report comment

Spiro

To put the foreign imports into some form of perspective, most GP clubs will carry a squad of circa 35 players. In Quins case and other clubs, the SH players represent in the region of 20% of the squad. In addition there are a number of Welsh, Irish, French and Scottish players but the greater number are English players. If you have a look at some of the web sites you will see that many of the squads will carry in the region of 8 young players who have come through the academy, in addition to the more established English players.

If I recall you remarked upon the size and power of the England U20 squad v OZ and you may be interested to kinow that a number of these players are beginning to break through into their clubs first XV. As illustrated by the performance of young Farrell the youngest player to have appeared in a GP team, the elite programme is beginning to bear fruit as the likes of Cipriani, Haskell, Care and others are beginning to break through into the internatonal arena. One tends to forget that Tait (22) and Flood (23) who now have a number of England caps are still very young.

The professional era in England has allowed more of the top players to concentrate on rugby and develope players from a young age as they can see a worthwhile career in rugby. Incidentially Cipriani and Haskells current contracts with Wasps expire at the end of the season and I see that Cipriani is probably looking for a retainer of £200.000 per annum that is on top of a recently secured contract with Addidas which will pay him £1M over 4 years; not too bad for a 20 year old!! I forget add in the £100k for playing for England; plenty of incentive for young English players.

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Benjamin said  | October 10th 2008 @ 11:42pm | Report comment

(wrong thread)

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Colin N said  | October 12th 2008 @ 6:52am | Report comment

Benjamin, I watched the Sale game-we were excellent and clinical. Clermont hammered our scrum yet for once the backs played as a cohesive unit. Hodgson showed his quality when he came on and as you say McAlister was fantastic. Was it that Clermont were supremely bad or were Sale just Superb? I for one couldn’t tell but this must rank among the great English Heineken cup away results and performance.

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Colin N said  | October 12th 2008 @ 9:08am | Report comment

It’s interesting what you say about Keil because I’ve never been a big fan. He’s superb defensively and very strong but he’s not very quick or got great footwork. I agree after he came on the backs looked better; perhaps he’s the missing link, but then again I regard Chris Bell as a true 13 and a better player but the backs, for the last couple of years have never looked as clinical as that and I’ve been to virtually every home game. What surprised me about Sale was the way we attacked from every area of the pitch, if the opportunity was on. Every other game this season we generally just kicked the ball away if we were behind the half-way line. There was a time against Clermont when Sale attacked from their own try line and got up to the ten meter line in one phase which I’ve never seen us do before.

It’s been a good dayfor the English sides and I hope Leicester, Bath and Wasps carry on the good work. I look forward to the Toulose-Bath game with interest. I hope Bath come out with the same attacking mindset that Sale came out with against Clermont, which I expect them to do and they could cause a shock. So far it’s been a superb opening weekend in the HC, with virtually every team raising their game. It’s certainly been played to a higher standard than the GP and ML and for me it’s the greatest club competition in the world.

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Colin N said  | October 13th 2008 @ 5:18am | Report comment

I agree McAlister isn’t a 13 but I don’t think Saint-Andre tells him to stay in that position, I think he switches which, at times, has been to the detriment of the team. Too often last season the players were confused about which position they were playing in, arguably because of McAlister’s flexibility. But against Clermont the backs seemed to click. I think it was the rugby club who said when McAlister makes a break he sometimes lack’s that vision. This season, however, that seems to have changed. Whenever he makes a break, he’s always looking for support.

Tait should be playing 13, especially with Lamont’s form yesterday but apparently the player wants to play 15, which is unfortunate as I feel he would benefit hugely by playing with McAlister in mid-field.

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Colin N said  | October 13th 2008 @ 8:38am | Report comment

To be honest Benjamin I have never seen Lee Thomas kick from hand for Sale. He is a great kicker but it’s usually McAlister or Hodgson kicking for territory. I like Lee Thomas as he’s in the mould of a de Villiers (obviously no way near as good), but he’s the sort of basher in the middle. McAlister has the power to do that job but it wouldn’t be getting the best out of him. That’s why I feel a mid-field of a McAlister and Keil/Bell gives us a better balance, although I would love to see McAlister playing with Tait, but PSA likes to have a ‘basher’ in the side.

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Benjamin said  | October 18th 2008 @ 12:38am | Report comment

Sale: 15 Rory Lamont, 14 Mark Cueto, 13 Luke McAlister, 12 Rudi Keil, 11 David Doherty, 10 Richard Wigglesworth, 9 Dwayne Peel, 8 JM Fernandez Lobbe, 7 Luke Abrahams, 6 Chris Jones, 5 Brent Cockbain, 4 Sebastien Chabal, 3 Eifion Roberts, 2 Neil Briggs, 1 Lionel Faure.
Replacements: 16 Marc Jones, 17 Stuart Turner, 18 Dean Schofield, 19 Jason White, 20 Charlie Hodgson, 21 Mathew Tait, 22 Chris Bell.

Munster: 15 Paul Warwick, 14 Doug Howlett, 13 Keith Earls, 12 Lifeimi Mafi, 11 Ian Dowling, 10 Ronan O’Gara, 9 Tomas O’Leary, 8 David Wallace, 7 John O’Sullivan, 6 Alan Quinlan, 5 Paul O’Connell (c), 4 Donncha O’Callaghan, 3 John Hayes, 2 Jerry Flannery, 1 Marcus Horan.
Replacements: 16 Denis Fogarty, 17 Fredericio Pucciariello, 18 Donnacha Ryan, 19 Justin Melck, 20 Peter Stringer, 21 Barry Murphy, 22 Denis Hurley.

Some interesting selections from Saint Andre: Rory Lamont plays in his favoured 15 jersey; Chabal plays in his less-favoured position of lock; Wigglesworth persists at 10 and McAlister plays again at 13. The pack looks meaty and playing Chabal at lock places less of an emphasis on his running which could be beneficial given how Munster targeted the Frenchman during their previous encounter. The other side of that is that Sale are risking playing a number 8 against two of the better second rows in Europe and perhaps the world. However Chabal may well swap with Chris Jones for offensive scrums.

The selection of Lamont at 15 adds a bit more verve to the backline but then the addition of Keil evens that out. Why won’t Saint Andre play McAlister and Tait? Although Wigglesworth had a good game against Clermont Sale rely on their kicking game thus I’m not sure how well this will work out against Europe’s best tactical kicker. The Sale bench looks very strong, however.

Munster also ring the changes. Keith Earls gets a run at 13 - his best position - after looking like a centre out of position last week. I’m not sure if Tipoki is injured? Warwick at full back is a bit of a puzzler given that he doesn’t play there but as Rory Lamont doesn’t really have a kicking game it is likely that Warwick will not be fully tested. Tomas O’Leary comes in for Stringer.

In the forwards Justin Melck drops to the bench in favour of O’Sullivan. David Wallace’s running game is transferred to number 8 - which will be interesting. If Sale scrum well then he may not have much to work off, which is perhaps why Munster have selected two opensides.

I would normally plump for Sale but I am somewhat perplexed by Saint Andre’s selections. The Montauban debacle may be just what the doctor ordered so I’m going to pick Munster to win.

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Ian Noble said  | October 18th 2008 @ 1:17am | Report comment

Benjamin

With Nick Evans, Dave Streetle and Tiesi injured, Quins back line must be one of the youngest to appear in the HC.

Danny Care 21
Malone 28
Amesbury 20
Turner-Hall 20
Moyne 24
Williams 24
Brown 23

Playing at the Stoop v Ulster, inexperience could be a problem, but then Dean Richards is no fool.

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