By Jim Morton
June 12th 2009 @ 1:47am
View The Roar's top rugby union writers.
New podcast from RuggaMatrix, with Munster Assistant Coach Laurie Fisher as guest. Listen now.
Love new art, fashion, music? Check out Aussie site which unearths all things cool and creative.
Related coverage
Japan not keen on Super rugby’s plans
Japan coach John Kirwan says the Land of the Rising Sun has nothing to gain from being part of Super rugby’s expansion plans.
Ruling out a bid for the open Super 15 licence and any later interest, Kirwan said there was no future for Japan competing against Australia, New Zealand and South Africa’s provincial sides.
Australian Rugby [...]
This article is over 2000 days old and has been trimmed.
Going to the Waratahs v Brumbies blockbuster at ANZ Stadium, Saturday 24 April? If you're keen to meet up with other Roarers, register you interest and we'll keep you informed on the place to meet. Register now.
Get Australia's best Rugby opinion emailed daily.
Like this content? Buzz it up!
Free Email updates:
Our daily emails are only sent if there is content for the sport or that author. You can subscribe to multiple daily emails; or get the daily Roar email with all our content in it. We value privacy. More...
(19)
Dan said | June 12th 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment
I can see Kirwin’s point, and Japan is definitely a unique country in terms of sporting sides; one in which the local companies attached to them are sometimes more important than the region they represent. The Japanese are one of the few countries in the world where people have an affectionate affinity for their MNCs and this lets the system work. That said, I honestly don’t feel as though they do enough to bring the sport into the mainstream… perhaps a RWC there would help though.
AndyS said | June 12th 2009 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
To be honest, I am a little surprised…the Top League runs October to February and is entirely domestic yet is sponsored by international companies. I would have thought that having a “select” team from that competition, collectively representing all those companies and/or the Top League itself in an international competition, might be an attractive advertising and player development option.
Brett McKay said | June 12th 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Andy, I’m surprised by the comments too, but at least now we’ve had a comment from Japan, rather than just from SANZAR (or John O’Neill). That said, I still think there’s merit in Japan coming into Super rugby, and really, only contrary comment from the Japanese Union is what would change my opinion. I’ll be interested to see if they back up the national coach’s comments, or maintain their silence..
Working Class Rugger said | June 12th 2009 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
Yeah, You really need something more from the Japanes Rugby Union. But I know where Kirwan’s comments are coming from. when he took the position he had many objectives he wanted to achieve. The first was to transform Japan into a competitive Tier 1 nation. And not far below this first was for thr Top League to evolve into a truly competitive Rugby Competition on par with it’s european counterparts. If the focus falls onto the Super 15-18 then this might take longer than he wants.
Hammer said | June 12th 2009 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
Lets get things straight here … Kirwan is not the first to make these calls …. Eddie Jones said a similar thing 3-4 weeks ago – the only problem being no-one seems to want to listen to what he has to say ….
Japan appears to have far too many hurdles – Andy hard to see 1 side collectively epresenting all those companies – some are rivals in the business world …
perhaps Hong Kong is a better fit if Asia is going to be a real target … and if it is then give them the option of the 5th team in the S15 …
Brett McKay said | June 12th 2009 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
WCR, I do like his idea of a HC-style comp, but as we’ve discussed on here on many an occasion, timing for such an event is difficult…
Is OJ still based in Japan?? I wonder how much of this “Japan for Super rugby” talk has filtered over there, and if there’s been any reaction?? Can any other Japan-based (or knowledgable) Roarers help??
Poly W said | June 12th 2009 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
JK doesn’t speak on Japan Rugby’s behalf . Once rugby is run by the big cities/towns and sponsor by the big company rugby will take off in Japan like J-League.
AndyS said | June 12th 2009 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
Perhaps Hammer, but at least Kirwan puts an argument behind his opinion. What I got from Eddie (and it may be reflective more of reporting than what he actually said) was that his was more a “eehh, no one in Japan likes Rugby or watches it, so don’t bother”. It just came across as more from Captain Negative, and everyone tunes out.
Perhaps my view is a little coloured by my time there, but the Japanese do (or at least did) Keiretsu very well. They may be disparate companies, but they don’t necessarily compete in the Western sense and anything that might improve or promote the game in Japan could only be good for them all collectively when they’ve all chosen Rugby to promote their companies.
I would see them much more opposed to a HC style of competition. That would inevitably lead to player movement between teams, with far more potential for conflict between teams and their sponsor corporations. If that were the case, I think you’d find them much more willing to work together than separately.
Lazza said | June 12th 2009 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
The “Cherry Blossoms”? How about having a quiet word to them about changing their nickname? Even their Football team, “Blue Samurai”, sounds tougher.
I’m not having a go since I like Rugby but there always seems to be obstacles to doing anything to improve the sport and offering a bit more variety?
ohtani's jacket, said | June 12th 2009 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
Jones and Kirwan are being honest about rugby in Japan.
Everytime O’Neill mentions Japan, it’s like those broadcasters who were interested in a trans-tasman comp.
Spencer said | June 13th 2009 @ 2:46am | Report comment
OJ – How does Japan move forward? As far as I can tell they have been stuck in a holding pattern for 10 years, and it is now getting worse as they are sending up to 5 players in the starting 15 who aren’t Japanese, to play in the Asian 5 nations. At least the guys representing Hong Kong are there as permanent residents not just as rugby whores or on a rugby retirement program, or easy ride.
I agree that JON is spruiking, but I don’t see anyone else making any alternative proposals. Eddie Jones is a Muppet and has created such a negative profile that even if he has something relevant to say people won’t listen to him. Japan has the numbers and finance to grow, but they are mired in the same closed market mentality as is their business mentality. Japanese companies are ready to participate in other markets, but not open to others participating in theirs.
OJ and Andy seem to have first-hand experience. Also interested from those who have inside knowledge.
By the way I agree that HK could work as it is a very cosmopolitan city with good facilities, large corporate presence (Tahs may lose the HSBC – Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corporation as their sponsor) and a government ready to act in support.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 13th 2009 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Spencer,
The foreigners who play in the Japan national team have been playing in Japan for three or more years or moved here on rugby scholarships when they were teenagers. The latter came up through the Japanese University system. Some of the clubs want to spend big money on players who are “technically” eligible for the national side, but that’s a loophole at club level. The guys who play for Japan are fairly committed, I’d say.
The thing you have to keep in mind is that despite these companies having large budgets to spent on rugby, they don’t make money from rugby. It’s not that uncommon for a company to fold its rugby operations or revert to amateur status if their team is relegated from the Top League. No company wants to risk being relegated, and when they sponsor an event (such as the under 20s), they want sole sponsorship rights. You’re not going to see the major companies co-operate to establish a super rugby franchise, which is why Jones said you’d have to enter the Japanese national team into the comp. The problem with that, as I’ve said many times, is that those players aren’t contracted to the JRFU and right now the JRFU are concerned with their bid for the 2015 or 2019 WC.
I’m not sure why people want Japan in Super rugby. The national team can’t beat the Reds and they’d struggle to draw 10,000 people to games.
Spencer said | June 13th 2009 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
OJ- thanks for the explanations of Japanese rugby nuisances.
My question was about proposals for progressing the game in japan, which has stagnated for 10 years.Iits acceptable to disagree with the Super Rugby proposal, but how about some positive, constructive input.
It’s easy to shoot down other peoples ideas.
Spencer said | June 13th 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
BTW, the reason people are interested in Japanese rugby improving is so the Reds colts don’t beat them.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 13th 2009 @ 8:22pm | Report comment
I wouldn’t say Japanese rugby has stagnated. Ten years ago they didn’t have the Top League comp. The All Japan championships have gone backwards in the last 10 years, but that’s a result of the company competition going semi-pro. The national side is better than it was a decade ago.
Spencer said | June 13th 2009 @ 10:42pm | Report comment
Work with me on this OJ. I am asking you what are the best options to develop rugby in Japan. target level is IRB ranking = 8.
BTW , although the Japanese blossoms have improved in absolute terms, they have NOT improved relative to other nations, especially eastern Europe.
You always have a lot to say on roar, usually critical diatribe about Australian rugby. Nows your opportunity to be positive & creative.
ps how about le bleu!!
ohtani's jacket, said | June 14th 2009 @ 10:43am | Report comment
In Japan, they only start playing rugby in junior high school and there aren’t the same pathways to professionalism that they are in other countries. Kirwan’s been pro-active in youth development, but despite the under-20s giving some credible performances at the JWC, it’s a steep learning curve when you consider how long they’ve been playing rugby.
JK’s started selecting university players for his national squads, and what he’d like is to have them contracted to the JRFU as professional players, rather than being semi-pros employed by the companies. Unfortunately, the only uni players who are ready to walk into the national side are foreigners playing on rugby scholarships — guys who started playing their rugby at a much younger age. By the time Japanese players reach junior high school, the best athletes have been lost to other sports, such as football and baseball, where the pathways to professionalism are much clearer and where there’s a focus on youth players being drafted to the pro leagues.
Rugby began as a university sport in Japan and every year they draw huge crowds to the famous university clashes, but those fans are only interested in their school’s team. Many Waesda players, for example, are signed by Suntory and many of them will go on to play for Japan, but there’s no sense that Suntory are Waseda graduates’ team. Rugby’s something you go to while you’re at school and if you ever go to another rugby game after that it’s as an alumni.
So, I’d say they need to start playing organised club rugby at a younger age, instead of tag rugby, which is their only real exposure to rugby in the lower grades, and the JRFU need to find a way to bridge the gap between university and company rugby. A lot of people use the J League as an example of where the Top League fails, and that may be true, but the baseball teams are also owned by big companies and baseball remains king in Japan.
Japanese rugby was slow to adapt to professionalism and the J League snuck in at a time when football was dead in Japan and became a huge success. Football has such a big profile in Japan now that I can’t see rugby expanding. They’ve been the kingpins of Asia for so long that it’s no big deal if they make the Rugby World Cup and no-one expects them to win a game. Therefore, a lot hinges on the national team having such tangible success.
Brett McKay said | June 14th 2009 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
OJ, not sure if you saw my couple of questions above – how much of this “Japan for Super rugby” talk has filtered over there, and has there been any reaction??
ohtani's jacket, said | June 14th 2009 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
Brett, I can’t really add anything to what we already know, which is that the JRFU told the ARU and NZRU that they’re not ready. You can take that whichever way you like; personally I think it’s a polite Japanese way of saying “no thank you.”
The JRFU’s sole focus at the moment is on winning the WC hosting rights. That doesn’t mean it’s out of the question. If the WC is a success in Japan, then they’ll need to capitalise on that somehow and Super rugby may or may not be the answer, but I don’t think they’ll make any kind of move until 2016 or 2020 and who knows what state Super rugby will be in by then.
Kirwan is pretty tight with the JRFU, so I see no reason to doubt him. Jones would rather sign rugby league players than have any involvement with the Super 14. The leading English rugby writer in Japan, Rich Freeman, reported about the “Japan talks”, but I don’t remember him giving an opinion about it. His hobby horse is that Japan should’ve gotten the WC over New Zealand and so on.