By ohtani's jacket
June 15th 2009 @ 8:37am
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Some quick fixes for the All Blacks
A few weeks ago, I wrote an article about the challenges facing the All Blacks this season, and while I would have never predicted a loss this early in the year, what we saw on Saturday shouldn’t come as a surprise.
The June Tests have always been looseners for the All Blacks. Usually, they get away with a performance like Saturday night’s, but not this time: the French were organised in defence, committed to the breakdown, and despite being a little ordinary, exposed some all too familiar weaknesses in the All Black game plan.
Time and time again, Henry’s All Blacks have struggled against the rush defence, and the reasons for this are the same every time.
Whenever you face a rush defence, your forwards have to make extra metres in the tackle. This gives the support time to arrive and lets you suck in an extra defender. Provided you get quick ball, you can attack the channels either side of the ruck, which punches a hole in the defensive line and lets you get in behind the opposition.
If you don’t support the ball carrier, then you either end up with a turnover or slow ball. You can’t beat a rush defence with slow ball. You end up playing too flat.
With no way through, the backs become frustrated. The opposition toy with the offside line, the midfield becomes congested and the end result is always a turnover, whether it’s from a knock on, a penalty or an errand pass.
If you try to go wide, you’re bundled into touch. If you look to throw long, you run the risk of an intercept. And if you kick over the top, it’s mostly in vein.
Whether the French are a good side or not is irrelevant.
The French played well, the All Blacks’ lost and that’s all there is to it. We were outplayed, out muscled and shown up.
There’s only so many times you can dominate the second half; the reality is that these All Blacks haven’t been playing well for quite some time.
All of a sudden, they’ve got a week to fix things.
So where do they start?
Whether Henry likes it or not, he has to play a traditional back row. Despite his best efforts to revolutionise forward play, the All Black back row is not an area that needs improving. A traditional six/seven/eight combo has served Henry well over his tenure and won him plenty of Test matches.
Now that I’ve had time to think about it, “speed and versatility” is useless if you don’t win the battle up front. Without the right kind of platform, there’s no point in having quick and versatile flankers. They just get pushed off the ball.
Saturday night isn’t the first time Henry has messed with his loose forwards and lost a Test match, but it was rather ironic that despite playing three “sixes”, there wasn’t any sort of presence from our blindside flanker
Memo to Henry: rugby still requires a physical presence in the forwards.
The “new look” trio were a failure, and Henry will have to accept that just as he accepted the flat backline in 2004 and the loose forward reshuffle last year, but their tight five let them down.
Without McCaw, there wasn’t the same commitment to the breakdown. The All Blacks failed to get there in numbers and the fabled “first three to the breakdown” from last year was noticeably absent.
There was no effort to establish dominance up front and with a lock on debut, a novice back row and our present tighthead situation, we couldn’t take the French on in the scrums.
Simply put, the All Blacks didn’t build any sort of platform from which to attack or wear the opposition down.
The line outs went all right, all things considered, but the All Black coaches have long abandoned the line outs as an attacking strategy.
The kicking wasn’t bad, and neither was our back play on the whole, but the midfield combination of Ma’a Nonu and Isaia Toeava proved once again that you can’t play like with like. Conrad Smith was sorely missed. He’s an extremely underrated player, who, more than likely, would’ve had the tactical nous to thread the rush defence.
There are a growing number of All Black supporters who’d like to see Stephen Donald get the hook, but he’s the fall guy this time round.
He can’t quite break a tackle like Dan Carter, and it would be nice if he actually did find the line from time to time, but the service he received from both of his halfbacks was pretty average and that’s something that dates back to the Grand Slam tour.
Dan Carter you can use as a decoy, because he’s phenomenal at attacking his opposite number’s channel. Donald needs the ball in his hands and should be trusted to make more of the on-the-field decisions.
McAlister does not belong in the All Blacks at this point in time and is not going to rescue us from our Carter-less season.
In short, it was all a bit too easy for the French.
The All Blacks need to take it to them up front and wear them down a bit.
They need to get the ball carrier working harder and focus on clearing out.
Once upon a time, the All Blacks used to bind together when they arrived at a ruck. They’d arrive from depth, running in from right behind the contact area. That way they could sweep up the opposition as they stepped over the ball.
Whenever they failed to do this, they’d hit back with a vengeance in the next Test and that’s the type of attitude the All Blacks need if they’re to avoid a series loss.
The backs need to be patient and not telegraph their moves in front of the defensive line. If there’s no space, create some. Suck in a defender, punch a hole, get in behind the opposition and offload.
If they do these things, they’ll spare us some heartache and a whole lot of embarrassment.
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Hemjay said | June 15th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
OJ,
Good read mate,
I have to agree with pretty much everything you’ve written.
Here’s hoping that Leonard is fit to play this weekend as has been suggested on TV3 news last night. His combination with Donald was instrumental in the Chiefs march to the finals this year and he is by far the best halfback in the country. Piris cause was surely not helped with Cooper playing him at ten then benching him.
As with Luke your absolutely right he should not be in the current ABs, clearly its his reputation albeit mostly from Henry the same guy who lost to the french at the world cup. Many lay a large chunk of the blame with Maccas for the 07 demise and ceryainly on saturday that last try can only be accredited to him. What a wonderful tyhing hindsight is but he should’ve taken the ball to ground and given the time for the boys to reset themselves. Then again with the appalling performance of the forwards this may not have made a difference.
His selection is a slap in the face for those who stayed loyal to NZ rugby
The problem though is who is the next cab of the rank so to speak. Ripia, Gopperth?
Nick (KIA) said | June 15th 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Nice piece OJ.
It was a remarkably similar game to Cardiff – players out of position, forwards bashing away getting nowhere, lack of ideas from midfield and committed and accurate French team deserved of vicotry, although the actually hardly had to get out of first gear in attack.
The difficulty is going to be what to do with the forward pack in terms of changes, with the available personel.
Hore and Thompson are out by the sounds.
If I was picking the pack, I’d start Afoa and Mealamu, leave Woodcock and locks intact, and start Kaino, Latimer and Messam at 8 (although he was infuriatingly inaccurate and flighty on the weekend).
In the backs, I’d start Weepu but leave the rest the same, unless Leanord is fit in which case Leonard and Weepu on the bench.
I think we’ll just win, but will be interesting to see what happens to public support (or lack thereof) for coaches if they lose again. If they follow that up with a poor showing in 3N (which is looking a bit likely) their positions will probably become untenable.
Sam Taulelei said | June 15th 2009 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Excellent article OJ, nice work.
As you correctly mentioned this loss shouldn’t come as a great surprise other than to the most one eyed parochial supporters. Your suggestions for selection changes are sound and while there may be some doubts around some of the specialists available I agree that our tight five didn’t lay enough of a platform to make any headway against France.
Their defence coach Dave Ellis is to be commended again on outsmarting the All Blacks with his defensive systems and again this shouldn’t come as a surprise to Graham Henry as Ellis joined the All Blacks as a consultant in 2005 against the Lions and his coaching abilities are well known to them.
The last time France won a test in NZ in 1994 has some clear parallels with the circumstances surrounding this years All Blacks. While the front row is settled and experienced, we’re missing our top lineout lock, players are selected out of position in the loose trio, halfback and first five aren’t controlling the play, the midfield is unbalanced and a test regular on one wing is out of form. In 1994 the French sent a superb side with several world class players and swept the series, this current side may not be of the same quality but my money is on them repeating the same effort this weekend and winning the second test.
Last year we were able to turnaround a convincing loss to the Wallabies within a week but last year we had McCaw returning from injury and Dan Carter controlling the play, I’m not sure if there is enough quality in this side to do the same and using either Donald and McAlister as scapegoats would be grossly unfair on those players. Graham Henry can’t control the extent of injuries suffered to his players but he is in control of selections and last week he clearly got it wrong.
sheek said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:57am | Report comment
OJ,
We cross swords from time to time, but this is a top class effort – well done!
Mark said | June 15th 2009 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
OJ – quick fixes but the only solid recommendation is to can McAllister ? Agree with a lot of your points re: how the game was played but we had a better scrum & lineout & lost it in the loose. This left the backs trying to win the game from mediocre ball.
Forwards:
Keep the tigfht 5, they came good once they realised what they needed to do & did the set piece well. Despite what people are saying we thumped them in the scrum. Bring in Waldron/Lauaki at 8, Latimer at 7.
Backs:
Weepu to start & drop the new Ice, keep McAllister.
Sam Taulelei said | June 15th 2009 @ 12:56pm | Report comment
Mark
Out of interest, what about McAlister’s game on Saturday convinces you that he’s worth persevering with more than Toeava?
Mark said | June 15th 2009 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
Sam – good question, to be honest he did nothing remarkeable (except for gift a try & remember to catch the ball) but in my opinion he’s a proven class player. I wasn’t impressed with Toeava, too many simple mistakes but people will remember the intercept more than anything.
I got the distinct impression in the first half that the backs were trying to win the game with every touch of the ball & required both better tactical kicking & patience, he provides the ability for that.
Sam Taulelei said | June 15th 2009 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Fair enough, I think that expectations for McAlister are unrealistic and it would have been better for him to work his way into form playing for the Junior AB’s. The injury to Smith has prompted a knee jerk reaction from Henry who probably wanted McAlister in the squad from the beginning.
Both Toeava and McAlister have been moved around the backline and their best positions are at 12 – problem is that Nonu is the incumbent and last week’s effort aside he is our most penetrative and damaging runner in midfield, so three into one position won’t go and Toeava’s versatility is invaluable within a squad especially with the amount of injuries to backs.
Mark said | June 15th 2009 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
Sam – to be honest I’d just be happy if we had the top players from teh S14 playing in their ‘proper’ positions. So your point re: versatility is well made, I mean moving Nonu to centre so McAllister can come into 2nd5 is a train wreck waiting to happen (what is it with AB sides & non-specialist centres !). I just want to see a real loose forward trio as the backs are good enough if they get decent ball.
BTW, what’s the difference with McCaw/Carter coming straight back after injury & McAllister ? this ‘playing into form’ stuff confuses me soetimes %-)
Ytraboy said | June 15th 2009 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
Hope like hell that all their players are up and running by the time the Tri-Nations come around.
Seriously way too much is being made of this loss by Kiwis who are understandably gutted and the French win has been blown totally out of context. The French were dominant, aggressive and read the New Zealanders like a book and if I am led to belive many of the posters in here missed a few first choice players Nallet it seems is the biggest link in the chain who is not playing. This French team are much stronger than people are crediting them for they and this I believe is what New Zealand did. They underestimated the French team and the physicality that the French would bring. A major point that others seem to miss is that this New Zealand team was miles short of its best and nigh on half of the squad was missing. It will go down in history as a win to the French on New Zealnd soil. But all loathing and detest for the All Blacks that many of us seem to have aside, one must acknowledge the reality that this was not anywhere close to their best team.
Cronullakiwi asks the question do you think Australia, South Africa, England or Wales could cope with so much talent on the sidelines?
England proved on the weekend it couldn’t going down to Argentina. Had their squad members currently touring with the Lions been available I think we would’ve seen a different outcome.
I wonder what this French win will do to the odds for the upcoming test?
I hear some punter lost 200k on the New Zealanders is there any truth in this?
retiredrucker said | June 15th 2009 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
OJ, interesting read. Do you coach at any level?
It is heartneing form an Ausy point of view that Henry has some slection dellemas that aren’t all related to a bottomless pit of talent!
I think Dean’s is probably in the right place at the right time. I agree with Hemjay(all black are’nt the strongest this year) that the Wallabies have some opportunity this year WRT the Bledisloe this year.
I wonder if the Boks will be able to preform as well as the Bull’s, my impression is that the Bulls are as tight knit a Rugby club as there is and I doudt all of that will be tranfered to the Boks. Here’s to hoping the Bok’s aren’t as awsome as their potential!
Hemjay said | June 15th 2009 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
The Boks are going to be a daunting task come Tri-Nations thats for sure
Ytraboy said | June 15th 2009 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
Some punter put 100k on the ABs to win at 1.15 he/she then went back and put another 100k on the ABs to win at 1.10
Surely must be feeling pretty stupid right now
Sam Taulelei said | June 15th 2009 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Mark
McCaw is a freak in the nicest sense of the word. His will to win, skill and fitness means he can bounce back from an enforced layoff better than most mortals.
McAlister looked a bit – how can I say this politely – chunkier than normal.
Ytraboy scanning the posts most Kiwi supporters aren’t gutted at this loss. Most acknowledge that this was a makeshift All Blacks team and that they were outplayed on Saturday, I guess most people didn’t know the strength of this French team or how much more physical they were going to be.
retiredrucker said | June 15th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Ytraboy,
200k @1.125, obviously a sure thing, I bet the bookie is kicking himself for laying off at the TAB.
How’s the bet O’connor’s mates made, he’d score 1st and last try of the game. There will be a royal commision! the fix was in!. I reckon that’s a great story . I hope they put $100 down At 500 to 1. I bet the bookie didn’t lay that one off!
Sam Taulelei said | June 15th 2009 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
And yet we’re living in a global financial crisis – sheesh.
Mark said | June 15th 2009 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
If you’re that good a 12% return in 24 hours is quite nice, although given the way the games go I reckon you’d make more money doing what Pothale did & saying 5:1 is too good to turn down !. Think about it, you’d only have to have a 20% success rate to break even.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 15th 2009 @ 6:39pm | Report comment
retiredrucker,
The only place I coach is on The Roar.
I just felt like we’d seen this match before — in Cardiff and a number of times against South Africa. The All Blacks couldn’t find a way through and weren’t able to sustain any pressure. Based on those previous struggles, I think a full strength side would’ve had a hard time winning that Test.
Really, the only difference between the November Tests and what we saw on Saturday is that we were able to keep the home unions scoreless for the most part. Our defence was attrocious on Saturday night, and while France deserve credit for taking their scoring opportunities, those first half tries should’ve been stopped w/ first up tackles.
One area where I will criticise Henry is that he’s never really acknowledged that the All Blacks have a problem against rush defence. This is mere speculation on my part, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he puts it down to an offside defence.
In theory, if the defensive line is rushing up, then they’re leaving gaps behind the defensive line, but to really exploit this you need to drive them back in the rucks and mauls.
The pick and go doesn’t work in this respect. You need to push the defensive line backwards by passing out of the ruck, straightening and driving up the middle. That way you’re making inroads and stretching the defence. If they’re on the backfoot and decide to rush up, they’re not going to have the numbers. The All Blacks did this extremely well in the Dunedin Test last year, it just took them too long to figure out how to find a way through.
Mark,
I can’t keep track of who’s injured at this point, but I think they need to bring Kaino back into the side as the blindside flanker, put Latimer at 7 and keep Messam at 8. Hore’s battles with injuries and form is really hurting our overall forward play, but I’d take my chances and start de Malmanche. Mealamu is the safe choice, but he doesn’t have the leg strength that he once had and we need guys who can make extra metres. I also think Thorn needs to step up and provide a physical presence in the absence of McCaw.
If Smith can’t play then our midfield is screwed, which is another all-too familiar weakness. Nonu’s a 12. McAlister’s a 12. Toeava, if you’re going to use him, is a 12. There are no thirteens. If you don’t have a thirteen, then you need your winger to come in-field and play like one. In that case, I think they need to make room for Masaga somehow. I don’t think Rokocoko had a bad game and I’m not sure where that criticism is coming from, but let’s face facts — it’s not on out wide. The only way they’re going to score down the wing is on a fluke-ish turnover play or counter attack.
No matter what, they’re not going to win with back play. I’d try pinning the French in their territory a bit and see if it frustrates them. I think you’d have a better chance scoring off a stolen line-out than you would picking and going your way into oblivion. They should watch a tape of the Eden Park game last year, where they secured the kick-offs, looked for touch and began bullying Australia in the line-outs.
When in doubt, be pragmatic.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 15th 2009 @ 6:47pm | Report comment
One more thing — if the All Blacks do win this Test, I’m not sure how much of a consolation it is.
Henry has managed to rebound from previous losses, but it’s because he has another chance. If the All Blacks play like this at home in 2011, there won’t be any second Test.
Spencer said | June 15th 2009 @ 7:01pm | Report comment
OJ – If you get the chance and know who is on the sick list, maybe you can give us your selection for this weekend. I would have thought that Waldrom at 8 would be a good choice, but I suppose he isn’t on Henrys likables list. The concerns from my viewing:
1. Back 3 were fine. Surprised/impressed by Jane.
2. Cowan and Donald don’t seem to work well together.
3. Donalds “brain explosion” with the 22 restart was frightening. I just cant see Cowan/Donald/Nonu working.
4. Obviously Leonard and Donald would be better due to the Chiefs arrangements.
5. Nonu without Smith is a headless chicken.
6. 6,7 & 8 was a disaster that Henry/Hansen must accept responsibility for. Waldrom, Reid and Latimer.
7. Thorn was soft. Is he carrying and injury. Ross went OK, but Williams will be his usually nasty self (which is good for the team). I wonder if Chabal can get him again?
8. I like your idea with de Malmanche. He created a lot of go-forward for the Chiefs.
9. I have never rated Tialata, but not many other choices.
Spencer said | June 15th 2009 @ 8:34pm | Report comment
I read on a kiwi site the following reasons for the loss to France.
1. “They’ve come out of the Super 14 competition which is about four or five rungs down from test match rugby. It takes time to get used to that and we paid a price early on for that.” Quote from Graham “there is lemon stuck in my mouth” Henry.
2. “I don’t think you can confuse attitude with physicality,” he said. “Our attitude was good. It just took us some time to understand ‘hey, this is different to what I’ve been in before. I’ve got to be bigger, I’ve got to be stronger, and mentally I’ve got to be tougher’. Quote – Steve “Geez those pies are good” Hansen.
3. “The boys were probably a wee bit slow to adjust, especially with the ELVs we’ve been playing. We knew the rule changes (rolling maul), we were just slow to adjust.” Quote from Jimmy Cowan.
Questions:
1. I wonder what the 4 or 5 rungs are tat old sour-face is talking about?
2. Is Steve going to feed the boys pies all week to make them “bigger”?
3. Why didn’t the Wallabies have problems with the rolling maul. Actually did very well. Coaching anyone?
Hemjay said | June 15th 2009 @ 10:35pm | Report comment
Simple really the wallabies were playing Italy a team who would struggle against Japan.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 16th 2009 @ 1:34am | Report comment
Spencer, will put some thought into it tomorrow.
As far as the short restart goes, I’m sure Carter’s done that before.
I thought Nonu played slightly better in the second half, but everyone knows how to defend him. They’ve really gotta start using him as decoy or have him loop around and play off the ball carrier’s shoulder. If they insist on using him as a first receiver, he needs to make extra metres in the tackle like he started doing in last year’s turnaround. As you can tell, I’m big on extra metres in the tackle.
James Mortimer said | June 16th 2009 @ 1:43am | Report comment
Spencer and OJ, have just submitted an article to the Roar, but you can read it here.
http://www.rugbycountry.net/2009/06/all-blacks-team-for-2nd-test.html
At the bottom has all the injuries, availabilities, and my pick for the second test team.
MarkH said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:29am | Report comment
You Kiwi boys need to show some faith in these lads.
Rusty said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Good article James. Had a look at your selections and they look pretty decent. Have a few thoughts, Jane played well but I do think that give MIls is arguably the best in his position and he should stay at 15. I also have tried to include existing combinations where possible – so the Chiefs back 3 (less Sivi), Canes midfield unless Smith is ruled out in which case the solid Bateman will nevet let you down. Not hapy with the 8×9x10 axis but with injuries its pretty much impossible to get an existing combination going. Tight 5 I thought was pretty good, I would stick with Ross and Thorn but replace TH with Thorns Sader partner Franks. Backup front row is straight from the Blues. Backrow is more balanced with players in position, Lauaki is a bit a gamble as always but he does bring more go forward and if he goes missing, bring Kaino to 8 and Messam to 6 or if Kaino isnt available then Messam to 8 with Read to 6.
15 – Mils Muliaina / Jane
14 – Leila Masaga
13 – Conrad Smith and if injured then – Tim Bateman
12 – Ma’a Nonu
11 – Sweeney – perhaps controversial but overall I have been impressed by this quiet achiever
10 – Stephen Donald
9 – Piri Weepu
8 – Lauaki
7 – Latimer
6 – Jerome Kaino with Messam & Kieran Read to cover/start
5 – Issac Ross / Williams
4 – Thorn
3 – Franks / Afoa
2 – Aled de Malmanche / Mealamu
1 – Tony Woodcock / Crockett
Not very inspiring but a pretty solid team overall
Rusty said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:28am | Report comment
apologies for grammatical errors – this little text box doesnt lend itself well to proof reading
Sam Taulelei said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:35am | Report comment
James
I’m inclined to leave the original backline intact and play the specialist players in their specialist positions instead of swapping players around again. The problem with last weeks team was the lack of combinations and cohesiveness was going to be exposed under pressure and making more positional changes is not going to help the situation any further.
We don’t possess the classy backline we had in 2005/06 that was able to win games even when we conceded possession and territory and our offloading and support play has gone strangely awol.
Only changes should be in the balance of the loose forward trio following Thomson’s injury and OJ’s selection is a sound one. Aled de Malmanche has the same problem with throwing into the lineout as Polota-Nau and it would be a risk to bring him on as a sub if the contest is close however his ability to make metres in the tackle and all round running game is a big plus. The tight five need to dominate the physical exchanges and impose themselves on the game, if they can do that and push the French back over the advantage line it will create more time and space for the backs.
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Rusty – little tip in case it’s helpful to proof reading. You know that you can expand the little text box to see all of your post in one go?
The bottom right hand corner has a little symbol of two slanted lines. Click on this and drag to widen and deepen the size of the box.
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Spencer – very funny re Henry’s comment, I had a real WTF when I read that one. It’s a Test, they’d all played tests except Ross, they knew what to expect but got out muscled !
1. Back 3 were fine. Surprised/impressed by Jane.
Agree, was surprised by his reliability although thought joe didn’t look for as much work as Sivi’s been doing in the S14. Also the kick chase was mediocre at best, there were a couple of times when we only had one real chaser & were very lucky to get teh ball back.
2. Cowan and Donald don’t seem to work well together.
Cown just dodn’t seem ‘on’, thought Weepu did much better.
6. 6,7 & 8 was a disaster that Henry/Hansen must accept responsibility for. Waldrom, Reid and Latimer.
Yep, what does Thomas have to do to get a shot ?? Meesam had a shocker. Bottom line to me was if we get our losse trio working then we have a the basis of an excellent team.
OJ – nice comments re: how to beat the rush defence, what I’ve always waited for is the bomb once we’re at the 22, how hard is it to land the ball just in the goal line with 4 or 5 chasers ???? League has been doing it for years, why is rugby so precious with a scoring bomb ? I disagree with teh pick & go, this works well IF executed well, fast recylcing of the ball, low body position, heaps of support, you only have to make a few metres each time & all of a sudden teh defending team are on the back foot then you can use the one3 out from the ruck. If you don’t set the one out up properly with pick & go they keep getting hit behind teh advantage line. Dn’t agree with Meesam, he reminds me of Toeava, so much promise but yet to deliver at test level, get a specialist, Lauaki ot Wladron, don’t care. McAllister into 13, leave the rest as is
MarkH – we do have faith but on Sat night we would’ve got eaten alive by the Boks or Oz & there were some things that just did not work !
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Sometimes I draft my posts in Word and then copy and paste in.
I don’t seem to have the symbol you refer to pothale.
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
Have read through all the posts in this thread. So who – in the opinion of the posters – have the ABs got coming in to the XV/squad this week that’s going to make a real difference as opposed to trying someone else out in a particular position?
Rusty said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
Yeah – I dont have the expansion option either. Use Word for the more effusive postings but sometimes I just need to shoot from the hip and get back to work. Hence the staccato writing
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Oh – that’s funny. Maybe different things appear in different versions of internet browser programmes. I use Safari. Maybe it’s invisible. Would clicking and dragging in the bottom right corner work anyway?
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Pothale,
I think there are three individuals who would make a significant difference, if they are recovered – Kaino (effective defender, large powerful 6), C. Smith (midfield will be tripe again without him), Leonard (head and shoulders above the others in terms of attacking from the base, which will also get ball going forward).
Otherwise, cupboard is bare in terms of improvements avail (eg tight 5, wing).
Rusty said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:51am | Report comment
definitely browser related. As for answers to the question, I think if his head is in the right place Lauaki is the sort of player that can provide the required impetus. If you have him and Nonu running either side of the reciever you leave the defence with a whole lot of questions and short of stopping power
Rusty said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:52am | Report comment
and Smith – he brings intellect in unlocking defences and the best out of Nonu
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
For me, Lauaki is a complete liability. He’s on fire about 1 game in 5 and the rest of the time is a lazy defensive turnstyle. See Sydney 08 v Wallabies. Should never be considered again.
Colin N said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Nick (KIA),
I would have thought that a natural openside would also help, like Latimer? Thomson at 7 just didn’t work and I think was the key to their loss.
P.S. When’s the team announced?
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 9:58am | Report comment
I would start Latimer, Kaino and Messam – but I think Latimer fits into the category of ‘trying someone else” rather than making a real difference. He’s not classy (yet?), like Messam. Or Thompson for that matter.
We’re a couple of years off having a decent 7 to replace McCaw, and there are no clear contenders still, IMO.
Maybe Carl Lowe? Needs more time too.
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:00am | Report comment
Nick – Lauaki had a great S14 & showed more consistency & skills than previous years. I’d rate him a lot better than Meesam but about the same as Waldron. Waldorn doesn’t have the x factor but less mistakes & similar power in the tight.
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Mark – I think Lauaki had a passable S14, and is a proven non-performer at international level. Best international game was for Pacific Islanders v Allblacks about 4 years ago, when he was a complete wrecking machine.
Messam is a 6 and being played at 8 after bugger all time there recently – I’d persist with him for now. Waldrom’s not in the frame – but I also like him. Suffers from perception (?unfairly) of not being big enough or hard enough in contact.
Colin N said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Perhaps Lauaki listened to the er….wise words of Will Carling.
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:06am | Report comment
What did Willy say?
pothale said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Never shag a princess and hope to keep it quiet?
Colin N said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:11am | Report comment
On a website (rucku.com I think) he does a weekly news update in the world (mostly Northern Hemisphere) of rugby (it’s quite funny actually), but he bascially tells Lauaki to stop being such a lazy bastard.
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Nick you may be right on Lauaki but I remember Rodney being a one dimensional liability early on, also two of the French tries came where Meesam mucked up. I can’t blame him for the loss but he’s proven sod all so far. Oh yeah, if we want a 7 why not try Whitelock, he did well for the Crusaders in the S14…could he do worse than last weekend ????
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:19am | Report comment
But Rodney came right. Lauaki’s had 3 seasons to get it together, I think he’s had his chance. Messam’s got about 10 more poor performances in the black jersy to go to get down to Lauaki’s level. Here’s hoping he doesn’t manage that.
Whitelock also marginal selection reflecting lack of available talent for mine. He won’t get on the park unless Latimer falls over.
Ytraboy said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Lauaki for sure should be on the bench the guy is unpredicatble maybe thats why he’s been ommitted.
Well back to the slog the boss wants his laptop back
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Nick – Whitelock was tongue in cheek, although he’s got potential we don’t need more new blood ! I’d prefer Waldron to Lauaki but we’re more likely to get Lauaki. Henry needs to play an 8 @ 8, maybe you’re right & Meesam should get a few more game to come right, we’ll see when the team announced won’t we. Game asked more flipping questions than it answered.
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Sorry Mark missed the tongue in cheek
We’re a fairly good chance to lose this one too I think…
Presume team is out today?
Sam Taulelei said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:08am | Report comment
If you look at our forward pack from last week we had only one recognised ball carrier and he was on the bench – Keven Mealamu. Even then he hasn’t reached the same heights from previous seasons.
Brad Thorn has the bulk but you can’t have two wide running locks, someone has to get in and do the tight work.
We don’t have the players that attracted the attention of defenders like McCaw and Collins so they’re going to have to hunt together as a pack and flood the breakdown with low body positions to drive forward. The single runner off the ruck isn’t going to work against gang tackling and the French tight forwards look to be bigger in their upper bodies than our blokes.
If the selectors look for another talismanic player to do the work of two men a la McCaw then we’ll be beaten up again. The forwards just need to work harder and together. They will have to rely on executing the basics well, applying concerted pressure and not an individual flash of brilliance.
Sam Taulelei said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:32am | Report comment
I don’t know where all this criticism of Nonu is coming from. He wasn’t responsible for the defeat and it wasn’t long ago when he would have been the first pick in many people’s team. It was easy for the French to pick him out as he was the only player capable of busting their line so he was always going to be double or triple teamed. This team needs more stability and not less with wholesale changes. I don’t think the selectors will or need to over react to the loss.
Lion Red said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
What about Josh Blackie? Is he still injured? Probably doesn’t warrant a AB jumper after his injury interrupted S14 season however I feel that he could be a suitable back up for Richie come 2011 WC.
Sam Taulelei said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:37am | Report comment
Well here is the side just announced:
Muliaina
Jane
Smith
Nonu
Rocokoko
Donald
Cowan
Read
Latimer
Kaino
Ross
Thorn
Tialata
Mealamu
Woodcock
Reserves:
Toeava
McAlister
Weepu
Whitelock
Evans
Afoa
de Malmanche
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:41am | Report comment
The midfield is a problem, but it’s not Nonu’s making – we’re missing a 13 who is a 13. It will be less of a problem if the back row is sorted out and we get a bit of quicker ball.
Toeava is a bit like Lauaki – has had a long time underperforming in the ABs. Having said that, I was supportive of his getting a start given the options after Kahui and Smith withdrew, on the basis of a much improved and excellent S14 in an underperforming unit. I’d start him again if Smith has not recovered and keep fingers crossed.
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:45am | Report comment
I’m surprised they ditched Messam after what was admittedly a fairly rank performance – not Henry’s usual style.
Having said that, Read’s not a bad option at 8, and the balance is better. Pleased Kaino is back, and Smith.
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:46am | Report comment
So all we have to do now is wait for Sat night…….
Sam Taulelei said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Posters pretty much got the selections right – Smith, Kaino, Latimer in, but didnt’ expect Messam to get cut completely. Huge honour and step up for George Whitelock – hope that Latimer doesn’t get injured.
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:51am | Report comment
Oh and ABs by 12.
Nick (KIA) said | June 16th 2009 @ 11:54am | Report comment
Although it will be interesting – the french will really be up for this one.
retiredrucker said | June 16th 2009 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Sam T,
Your comment
“The forwards just need to work harder and together. They will have to rely on executing the basics well, applying concerted pressure and not an individual flash of brilliance.”
Is the basis for continued success for any team.
The Wallabies have not been doing this over the last 3 years, hopefully they will this year. My frustration with the wallabies is that the undercommit to the ruck by 1-2 players every time which results in disruptive slow ball which from time to time is pilfered by the oposition. To me this is a basic unacceptable mistake at test level.
How’s this for an idea, dock every forward $1000 per pilfered ruck ball and see the commitment and agresion change!
Tarpo said | June 16th 2009 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Lauaki shres the same hairstlye & is about as effective (most of the time) as Shirley Temple.
A good name for him in my opinion
Sam Taulelei said | June 16th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Retiredrucker
It is the basis for continuing success. From 2005 NZ had the luxury of possessing quality strikepower that even if we were under pressure and conceding territory and possession we could score long range tries from turnovers or poorly directed kicks and the scoreline would blow out. NZ could afford to commit fewer players to the breakdown in attack, we had a strong scrum and could get away with committing a lot of unforced errors in pursuing the high tempo all attacking game.
Perhaps the class of 2009 believed they could play in a similar manner to Super 14 and had the talent to overcome their deficiencies. They know now that they don’t and they’ll need to return to basics, be patient and build pressure instead of looking for the miracle pass or kick over the top. Heaven forbid even work their way to kicking a drop goal to keep the scoreboard ticking over and force the French to take risks.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 16th 2009 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
All right, I had a go at picking the team, and I think every rugby writer in New Zealand should do the same. Maybe then they’d realise how difficult it is.
I haven’t seen whether they’ve named the side yet, so these are my own ideas:
NEW ZEALAND: Muliaina, Jane, Toeava, Nonu, Rokocoko, Donald, Cowan, Messam, Latimer, Kaino, Ross, Thorn, Tialata, Tialata, de Malmanche, Woodcock
Replacements: Mealamu, Afoa, Evans, Whitelock, Weepu, McAlister, Masaga
If Leonard, Williams or Smith are fit, they take the starting spots with Cowan dropped and Toeava and Ross moved to the bench. McAlister ought to be playing with the Juniors right now.
With the front row, I think they need to go with size and experience. You could argue that Mealamu should start with de Malmanche being used as an impact player, but I wouldn’t want to trust him with set pieces late in the game. So, I’d see if he could provide any spark at the beginning. I’d maybe give Crockett a run against Italy.
Weepu could probably start the game, but with the bench so thin on experience, I think he needs to stay put.
As for the centres, we’re well and truly f’ked. If Smith can’t play, I don’t see what choice they have other than to keep the same pairing. The only alternatives are McAlister and Nonu or Nonu and McAlister and I don’t think you can play them together. One has to be subbed for the other.
The back three are OK, but why not switch Rokocoko to his favoured side? Perhaps Jane kicks off his right foot? I think it’s too big a Test to give Masaga his first start.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 16th 2009 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Not too bad.
I didn’t expect them to drop Messam. I figured they’d tell him to pull his head in and play like a number eight and not an extra back. Dunno about Read at eight, but at least they recognised the value of a legit blindside.
The return of Conrad Smith is a huge boost provided he’s fit.
I can see the logic in starting Mealamu.
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
OJ – Muliaina, Jane, Smith/McAllister, Nonu, Masaga, Donald, Weepu, Waldron, Latimer, Kaino, Ross, Thorn, Tialata, Mealamu, Woodcock
Replacements: de Malmanche, Afoa, Evans, Read/Meesam, Cowan, McAllister/Toeava, ???
Not too hard to pick the team (bracketed = first choice/second choice), hell of a lot harder to coach them ! If you need experience why leave it on the bench, the bench is for impact.
Don’t agree with McAllister being Juniors material, he’s been there, done that, so work on him, he’s proven more in the past than Toeava.
Joe’s been too quiet, give someone hungry a chance.
Life’s easy from an armchair……
Jerry said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:02pm | Report comment
Mark – I don’t really get the “dump Rokocoko” brigade. He scored more tries than any other NZ wing in the S14.
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
Jerry – I missed most of the S14 but the little I saw of it the main difference between him & say a Sivi was Sivi was hungry for the ball & was found hitting it up in the middle as often as out on his wing. Masage seemed to feed off that i.e. got quite involved for a wing. Joe’s a class player but everything I read about him in the S14 was he was very quiet. I saw him a couple of times in the final rounds & he didn’t seem to have the finishing skills of 1 or 2 years ago.
Have you got the wing stats for this years S14 ? Happy to admit I’m wrong on this one as thinking about Masaga in the semi & final he probably needs another year under his belt b4 we feed him to the Boks & Wallabies.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
How many touches did Joe get? He looked all right to me.
McAlister may have been there, done that, but he’s not in any kind of Test match form.
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
OJ – we’ll have to agree to disagree then. I thought Joe needed to get more involved as I can’t remember him touching the ball much, the rush defence will shut a wing right out of the game so they need to look hard for work.
I don’t know if McAllister is the answer, but before Smith was available I prefered him to Toeava as at least he’s proven himself in the past. There’s enough unknowns in there as it is. Kind’ve best of what’s available
Campbell said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
I thought Joe looked a bit slow myself.
One stage he got put in a small hole at top speed (by tuiava i think) and I said TRY to myself, he got hauled in in about 10m!
Perhaps just a quiet game last week, but would expect more input this week!
Dissapointed Henry & Co have gone with another somewhat patched together backrow! 6 and 7 i agree but where is the specialist 8? Need a bulky 8 like Luakai of Waldrom to bash it up me thinks.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
You can see the leading try scorers here — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Super_14_season
Joe lacks a bit of pace these days, but made up for it with guile and running lines. Everyone expects wingers to do spectacular things, but there’s no space up the middle or out wide. They need to start breaking some tackles and offloading to guys who hit the ball from depth. The only problem with this is that the tackler will take the passer out of play and the guy tearing up the pitch will end up isolated.
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
OJ – thanks for the link. I hope he gets back to his best internationally as he was one of the best finishers I’ve ever seen. I diesagree with out wide, Jane setup the try out wide, there’s planty of space if you can use speed or guile to get through the initial defense on a quick break but as winger you MUST have speed to finish it.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:33pm | Report comment
Yeah, but that try caught the French napping. They expected Cowan to kick it into touch. You could try that move a dozen times and Cory Jane would come up with the ball maybe once.
There was one breakout move where I thought they passed to the wrong side. The move that ended with Toeava passing to a French player. If he’d taken the contact, we may have had enough support to score, but our entire style is predicated on 50/50 ball. We’re just not as sharp as we used to be.
Mark said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
OJ – good point, although if I remember correctly there were 2 AB’s & only 2 or 3 French in range for that ball so that’s a 50/50 not a 1 in 12 proposition.
I spent the first half wishing they would just play more conservatively. It felt like they were trying to score every time they touched the ball instead of building pressue through territory. Also we normally have weak first up opposition (Fiji, etc), this was a fired up French team who played good test rugby so the sharpness will come. It’s not doom & gloom until we’ve lost the Bled, 3N, & Novemeber test…….until then it was a blip on the radar.
ohtani's jacket, said | June 16th 2009 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
It’s been a pretty dreary patch in NZ rugby from the Pretoria semi-final up until now, but Tew wanted full strength sides touring New Zealand. I suppose he wants the All Blacks beating full strength sides, but were bound to be caught out at some stage.
mother teresa said | June 16th 2009 @ 8:08pm | Report comment
OJ,TRUELY,ARENT WE TAUGHT TO RESPECT OUR OPPONENT,;there is no shame in losing to a better opponent but this was not the caes;we were simply poorly prepared even as you say after demanding tougher opposition.there plainly wasnt the intelligent fingerprint anywhere to be seen.the backline was dysfunctional,even taking the poor forward platform into consideration;they played like”SAMOA B”;PERHAPS WE SHOULD HAVE ENTERTAINED THE BABAAS.