By Alex Poulos
December 27th 2009 @ 12:13am
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What the B-League should look like
What the A-League is missing is the combination of “old” football and “new” football. Having all new teams does not allow for passion, history and rivalry, and rivalry is what football lives on.
What would the EPL be without derby games like the Merseyside derby, Manchester derby, and all the London derbies?
There would definitely be no more mouth-watering matches than Melbourne Victory versus South Melbourne, Sydney FC versus Sydney United or Sydney Olympic. These matches would easily draw crowds over 20,000.
The time has come for the FFA to embrace “old” football and let it move forward with the positives movements we are seeing in the game.
Football is an entertainment business, and the FFA must stop trying to create a false sense of excitement and give people what they really want – atmosphere.
The list below is a mix of “old” and “new” football coming together for a B-League, more exciting, in my opinion, than the A-League:
- Perth SC. Joondalup Arena, looking for crowds from 3,500 – 5,500.
- South Melbourne FC. Playing out of Bob Jane Stadium, looking to average crowds of 6,000 – 8,000.
- Darwin FC (new franchise). Playing out of Marrara Stadium, looking for crowds of 4,000 – 6,000.
- Sydney Olympic FC. Playing out of Belmore Sports Ground, looking for crowds of around 5,000 – 7,000.
- Brisbane City. Playing from Spensor Park, looking for crowds around 5,000 – 7,000.
- South Coast Wolves. Playing from WIN Stadium, looking for crowds around 4,000 – 6,000.
- Tasmania FC (new franchise). Playing out of Devon Port Oval, hoping for crowds around 3,000 – 5,000.
- Sydney United FC. Playing from Edensor Park, looking for crowds around 5,000 – 7,000.
- Adelaide Metrostars. Playing from Hindmarsh Stadium, looking for crowds around 4,000 – 6,000.
- Richmond or Gippsland (new franchise). Stadium to be determined.
- Sutherland Sharks. Playing from Seymour Saw Ground, looking for crowds of around 3.500 – 5,500 (ground will get an upgrade).
- Auckland United (new franchise). North Harbour Stadium, looking for crowds 4,000 plus.
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Fisher Price said | December 27th 2009 @ 7:32am | Report comment
NSL 2.
k said | December 27th 2009 @ 7:43am | Report comment
You’re living in a fantasy world. Also, why would Sydney Olympic, Sydney United and Sutherland get the nod over, say, Marconi or APIA Leichhardt?
Rhys said | December 27th 2009 @ 7:55am | Report comment
Alex,
I think mate you may have had a little bit too much of that christmas cheer over the festive season, and its all kind f seeped into your head. Look at the struggkes for crowd numbers there are now, even without futher sauuration ofteams in the marketplace.
You have to understandthat the FFA has gone out on a bit of a limb with their curent expansion let aone any further in the future. Like most sane peopl, the FFA knows that the league cannot be sustained without attracting crowds of on aerage 10,000 for each team, so they have gone out on a limb in the hope that these teams will grow. Hopefully they will.
With the crowd numbers you are suggesting for these B-League teams, which are an exaggeration of the actualcrowd figures to say the least, the teams simply coulndnt support theselves, and you cant have the FFA continuing to prop them all up on the assuption that we will get a windfal eac 4 years for makingthe world cup, what if next time we dont? Then, by your plan, football in Australia would go back to the bad old days, not the good pats of “old football” that you speak of.
I know you speak with your heart Alex and I admie that, but next time, use you head first before spewing that kind of garbage out.
The Truth said | December 27th 2009 @ 8:45am | Report comment
Are all these clubs from Baustralia?
David said | December 27th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
I reckon just get the state Premier league and make them our B-league they have alot of god players some far better then the standard of the A-league just a month ago i guy from south Melbourne was signed to Seina in the Serie A. the Jets were beaten by a State premier league team on the off season. I think some State teams are able to match and better the quality of the A-league it will aso give more youngstars a chance.
Footbal Person said | December 27th 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Just wondering, does this “B-league” have promotion to the A-league or is it seperate?
and please can we stop calling it B-league, we don’t want the FFA to think we like the name cause im sure we don’t (I think).
Chuq said | December 27th 2009 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Agreed. The B-League is the Bangladeshi football league. Our second division would be the A2-League.
Football said | December 27th 2009 @ 9:59am | Report comment
I have been involved & still am involved in the NSW Premier League & you are absolutely kidding yourself if you think the standard is higher than the A league.
Australia must have plans in place for a B league includeing promotion & relegation by 2011 to gain Asian spots. What they need to do is take the best teams from the state leagues & have them play off for an A league spot.
David said | December 27th 2009 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Im not saying the stardard is better overall but im saying there are a few teams that would certainly give the smaller A-league clubs a run for its money not to mention there are quite a few very skillful players in the state premier league looking to be uncovered. If the state league was with merge in ome way with the A-league it would be big fo football in Australia
AndyRoo said | December 27th 2009 @ 5:35pm | Report comment
To that regard I think the current A league players would look really good playing against state league teams in winter rather than against other full time pros in summer.
mahony said | December 29th 2009 @ 11:17am | Report comment
That is sometimes true of football anywhere in the world – your point is what again?
Jake Stevenson said | December 27th 2009 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Agreed man. I think having an annual playoff between the champions of the various state leagues to find, lets say..2 teams for promotion would be a good idea. The teams that get relegated can play in their state leagues, but there is the financing problem that was mentioned in this article. ( http://niccarbel.wordpress.com/ )
danny said | December 27th 2009 @ 10:46am | Report comment
to be financially viable, a second tier would have to be fully restricted to the east coast. a team from perth could not afford to fly over to the east coast, let alone new zealand, every second week on a second division budget.
teams would have to come from distinct geographical areas or be established state-league clubs to develop a supporter base. potential areas would be whichever of woollongong, canberra and tasmania misses out on the next round of expansion; geelong, ballarat, gippsland etc in victoria; albury-wodonga and the riverina; sunshine coast in queensland. also, current state-league teams with decent supporter bases and on-field success (eg south melbourne).
promotion and relegation, in a traditional sense, would not work in this country; the relegated team would be crippled, the promoted team would not be able to compete. the best way to appease the afc would be to have the capacity for a p/r playoff if a team has a prolonged period of success in the second division (or lack thereof in the a-league).
Daryl said | December 27th 2009 @ 10:47am | Report comment
what about a Canberra team? how can you have a national competition and not have a team from the capital?
rugbyfuture said | December 27th 2009 @ 11:09am | Report comment
the whole reason the A league was formed was to overcome the initial hurdles of the old NSL where there was so much focus on racial rivalry then team rivalrie that it overshadowed it. bringing those teams back would be too dangerous as it could revert back to such an atmosphere which is dangerous for a family
Axelv said | December 27th 2009 @ 11:57am | Report comment
I use to try going for South Melbourne. I don’t have a Greek background, and i went to a few of their games, and i felt like a complete outsider.
People immigrate to Australia to leave the baggage of their old country behind and have a fresh start. It’s quite sad to see Greek, Croatian, Italian, Serb fans fighting each other, when most of them have absolutely nothing to do with the conflicts that have happened historically before they were born, in a place far far away. At the end of the day we’re all Australian and the NSL at times made us forget this.
Al said | December 27th 2009 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
The reason clubs with ethnic identities were formed is because mainstream Australia never accepted migrants as equals (in the past) and these sporting clubs (which doubled up as social clubs) were the natural haven for migrants shunned by Australian society.
I don’t see Australians living in London assimilating into English culture, Australians there maintain their Australian identity, form their own clubs and pubs and keep to their own moreso than any other group of foreigners. Perhaps they should start assimilating into English culture the way they want migrants to do so here and to not form their own pubs and clubs and stick into their own enclaves (“Sheppards Bush is yobtown London, yet hardly any Aussies have assimilated into the culture and actively support the local football team, QPR).
bever fever said | December 27th 2009 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
So Australians have shunned migrants have they ?, you could not be more wrong, the vast majority of Australians are very accepting of migrants.
dasilva said | December 27th 2009 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
agree
as a descendant of a migrants I would vouch that Australia is very tolerant of migrants.
David said | December 27th 2009 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Ever heard of the white Australia policy back in the day Australians didnt accept Migrants if u have a wog back ground ask ur grandparents, or watch the wog boy.
But i still think the enthinic side of clubs should be drawn out a football club isnt about italien or Greek etc, Footall is about playing football for your area and producing players to play overseas and for Australia via entertaining football not ethinic pride
Kieran James said | December 31st 2009 @ 12:41am | Report comment
Clearly you have never lived in Glasgow mate. Celtic versus Rangers is what football is all about.
Al said | December 27th 2009 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
Tolerance and acceptance are entirely different things. For example, I tolerate australian rules football (living in Melbourne and all) yet I can’t stand the game and I will never accept it as anything more than an Australian historical oddity.
bever fever said | December 27th 2009 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
“For example, I tolerate australian rules football (living in Melbourne and all) yet I can’t stand the game”.
So let me get this right, you tolerate it but cant stand it, HMMM right then.
Sounds to me like you should move as it sounds like its doing your head in, bit of bad luck that.
Al said | December 28th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
That’s right, tolerance and acceptance are entirely different things.
Westy said | January 4th 2010 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Most australians are migrants. in one form or another. It could be themselves, or their grandparents. the majority of people living in australia came from another country.
Axelv said | December 27th 2009 @ 6:50pm | Report comment
There is nothing wrong for migrants to setup and be involved in their own communities. Everyone gets homesick. It’s just the racism and violence towards other Australian ethnic groups that concern me.
My family is Dutch and the German’s invaded and ruled with tyranny in World War II, but it’s in the past, i wasn’t there, i have German friends, we make the odd joke, we’re both Australian, get over it!
bever fever said | December 28th 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Posted by AL “I don’t see Australians living in London assimilating into English culture, Australians there maintain their Australian identity, form their own clubs and pubs and keep to their own moreso than any other group of foreigners”.
So what you are saying is that aussies in the UK, who in the main are descended from people from the UK and still mantain many/nearly all customs from that country keep to their own more so than any other group.
So aussies are more of a threat to the UK way of life than militant muslims from Pakistan etc who have lived their for generations, who still practice ceremonys like female genital circumcision and have hunted down mulism women and killed them for their familly’s honour if they dare to stray, they also send their sons back to the middle east so they can learn to be suicide bombers.
Personally your last line says it all to me “yet hardly any Aussies have assimilated into the culture and actively support the local football team, QPR”.
So if the aussies turn up to a few more soccer games does it mean that they have assimilated ?? .
Matt said | December 28th 2009 @ 8:18pm | Report comment
Al, that is complete rubbish. Australians do not maintain their ‘culture’ more so than any other group in London. Supporting a rubbish football team like QPR hardly qualifies as assimilating into the culture in a country with so much culture and wide variety of sports with very strong support other than football. I can tell you football is very big here but not the centre of the unuverse. Those Australians to which you refer are for the most part short term working holiday types who think it is cool to behave like a clown. Australians are actually really bad at forming their own pubs and clubs in London.
Al said | December 29th 2009 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
Being from England myself I accept that many Aussies do not live in England long term, however the ones that do heavily reinforce their identity as Australian first and foremost and never English to the point of obnoxiousness, despite having lived in England for many years. How can Australians then expect migrants to fully throw away their backgrounds when they never would themselves?
The problem with Asians in the UK is of course not comparable.
bever fever said | December 29th 2009 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
AL thanks for a somewhat reasonable comment, Australians love their sport and the best way of showing it is to beat the English at cricket, this is instilled in us from the time we are able to raise a cricket bat.
Think of it as the ultimate compliment as the majority of australians are of UK stock, somewhat distanced by generations now but generally the same customs etc.
Because of a notable lack of class structure in this country compared to the UK most Australians are sort of unaware that quite a lot of poms dont have much interest in cricket but in this country it transverses all demographics, same as Hockey and Tennis which all kids get a go at here, which may be unavailable to many kids in the UK.
The same can said for aussie rules in the southern states, it transverses all stratas of society unlike the rugby’s in NSW which historically are a private and public school sport respectively.
I did note that you mentioned that you considered aussie rules a historical oddity, if you think hard enough and consider that a couple Englishmen were involved in its formation it could have been just as easily formulated in the UK and shipped out with the thousands of Englishmen who moved rugby and soccer around the Commonweath and world.
The only places aussie rules went is from the Gold miners who took it to other parts of Australia, this IMO is a big difference, if you think about cricket it is a pretty weird game, a historical oddity perhaps.
Matt said | December 29th 2009 @ 5:35pm | Report comment
Having lived in the UK myself for close to ten years I can tell you that your perception is inaccurate. There have been a large number of Australians over many years that have sought to ditch the ignorant and naive Australian badge through assimilation back into British society. It is also different in the fact that Australia is just a slightly bastardised version of Britain making assimilation less problematic than with other cultures.
Roger Rational said | December 29th 2009 @ 5:46pm | Report comment
Exactly.
dasilva said | December 29th 2009 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
“How can Australians then expect migrants to fully throw away their backgrounds when they never would themselves?”
The answer is you don’t with an asterisk
My view on this issue
To be Australian (or any other nationality) is to be yourself. No matter how different that is from the mainstream
However no matter how different you are from the mainstream of the population, you have to accept that if you are born in Australian you are Australian (people who are born in another countries and are migrant, I generally think have a choice to self-identity).
Now the person who may have more similar behaviours as the culture of his parents then the country of birth. That is ok. However no matter how the person behaves, thinks etc. You got to accept that you are Australian and no other nationality (as the definition of nationality). If you are expressing and behaving as the culture of your heritage, that is actually a reflection of the liberal nature of Australian culture. By speaking the language of your parents and using their cultural practice, you are in fact practicising australian culture as well. I think migrants should see that.
The fact is that people have the responsibility to contribute to the country you are living in, and vice versa the country you are living in has the responsibility to protect you as well. There is no such obligation to the country where your parents are born (unless you are citizen of that country as well).
To claim you are not the country of birth and residence is just an acts of self denial.
So those people who are born in England who has Australian parents. They can behave whatever they want (within the limits of the law and other moral limits) but in the end has to accept they are English no matter how different they are from the English mainstream.
Kieran James said | December 31st 2009 @ 12:18am | Report comment
I thought the NSL was fantastic and I am still a supporter of the league. South Melbourne v Melbourne Knights from 1994 video clip is on youtube, the passion on and off the pitch is unbelievable. And we gave that up for plastic franchises that lack any meaning at all. How can any sporting league excite people without traditional clubs? And if you don’t like so-called ethnic clubs what about the great Celtic Football Club in Scotland?
David V. said | December 27th 2009 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
Good God, a lot of crap gets said on here.
Chuq said | December 27th 2009 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
So you are proposing either:
a) Tasmania has two teams, Tasmania United FC and Tasmania FC, across the two leagues
or
b) Tasmania has a single team, Tasmania FC, based in a city of 20,000 people in the north-west coast away from the major population centres.
The fact you omitted Canberra as well makes me think that you assume the first (and Canberra and Tas United will be 13 and 14th teams in the A-League). In which case I would think Launceston FC and Hobart FC would make more sense than Tasmania FC and Tasmania United FC.
Greek Sydney FC Supporter said | December 27th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
I could never support NSL as much as I wanted due to the very racial divides between teams. A NATIONAL league should appeal to all Australian football lovers, regardless of background. I’m a proud Syd FC supporter, and I sit in the Cove in as many games as possible with my friends, who are all kinds of Australians from all parts of the world, and we love the passion behind it. You’re right that the A-League doesn’t have history, but that’s what we’re doing: MAKING history.
As for the so-called lack of rivalry, did you see the 30,000+ crowd at the last Melbourne-Sydney game??
I’m very interested to see where A-League goes over the next few years, but I think you’re truly on the wrong path. I’m hoping that a decent performance from Australia in South Africa will fuel the country’s passion for sports, and maybe push A-League games on to free-to-air tv, and then the only way the league can go is up
cab711 said | December 27th 2009 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
I stopped reading after your first paragraph. There is plenty of passion in the A-League matches which just proves you dont even watch any of the games.
gurudoright said | December 27th 2009 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
The only thing I can suggest is to have a F.A. cup style knockout where the A league team play the top 2 or 3 teams in various state leagues. Have a either a 16 or 32 team knockout with the 11 (next year, 12 the following) A league teams and the best placed state league teams to fill in the number. This way you can have a decent amount of games to add to the football season, giving players more games, the clubs more money from gates and the A-league something to sell broadcasters in the next broadcast deal.
It will also give some of the old clubs a chance to rub shoulder against the big boys and add colour to the season. I don’t want to see teams like Sydney olympic or Melbourne Knights etc in the A-league but who is to say they would qualify for a FA cup style comp. From NSW you might find Blacktown City or Manly United qualify for the Cup comp.
Maybe when the AFC give the Aleague a 3rd spot in the champions league the spot would go to the winner of the Cup comp
Ben said | December 27th 2009 @ 8:46pm | Report comment
So why do we need a ‘B-League’?
Alex Poulos said | December 27th 2009 @ 9:13pm | Report comment
No one is saying that the list is fixed in stone, but canberra would be in the a-league and maybe perth would be scrapped swapped with a marconi.
The NSL never had voilence it has passion and prduced the last two socceroos squads of the world cups.
Sun Herald and Daily Telegrapgh jave mad issues of voilence to kill the sport in this country.
I have never heard of a country that kicks out all of the top teams and one man creates his own, bit to much of a power trip is our friend lowy ah.
To the clown that has used the username name of greek sydney fc its ok buddy to quote one big game of the year but look at the otehr clubs with their 5000 crowds and again one fixture does not make a succesfull comp.
The difference between the NSL and a-league is that the NSL had paying sponsors, paying spectators, the a-league has free tickets.
Sydney FC give away thousand of free tickets for every home game and still only get averages of 10,000 ask stefan kasmz doubters.
Tasmania only to have one team who cares if its united or whatever they will still flop
Chuq said | December 27th 2009 @ 10:03pm | Report comment
Wow.. That explains the article then.
Rob said | December 27th 2009 @ 11:50pm | Report comment
Ive been going to SFC for 5 yrs and never seen or heard of a free ticket giveaway!…can you get me one!
jimbo said | December 28th 2009 @ 11:13pm | Report comment
Yes, where are these free SFC tickets?
I’ll take 20 for every home game thank you very much!
Alex Poulos said | December 27th 2009 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
A football club is formed by a group of people no matter what brings them together.
Now for teams to be excluded from competitions due to the ethnic background their is nothing more racist that that are you for real.
Only in this country called australia, wake up boys
some one go kick out totenham hotspur or disbandle hellas verona and the list goes on
Axelv said | December 28th 2009 @ 12:17am | Report comment
NSL had violence and racial abuse towards opposing fans, I was there and it made me scared. It is true that the media beats things up and always make things worse than what they are to suit themselves, but racial violence certainly happened in the NSL, and this gave the media its fuel.
And guess what, The A-league also have paying sponsors(and is worth a whole lot more), paying spectators (way more than the NSL), no racial violence(unlike the NSL) and the football is 10 times better than the NSL ever was.
I’ll tell you what’s racist, having clubs within Australia that are racially exclusive to certain types of people, there is nothing more racist than that. Football is meant to unite us, not divide us.
Stop living in the past Alex, and let me be the first to welcome you to 2010.
Kieran James said | December 31st 2009 @ 12:21am | Report comment
“Fiootball is meant to unite us/ Clubs based around race divide”. Celtic versus Rangers anyone? Yes please and I support Celtic proudly.
Alex Poulos said | December 28th 2009 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Alexv i like it how you get on a highhorse but you have no idea what your talking about
all monies to staright to lowys ffa wake up smeel the cofee
name me the racial riots over 30 plus years of nsl come on
etat said | December 28th 2009 @ 10:24am | Report comment
There was plenty of racism in the old NSL involving the old ethnic minority clubs. I was there. I saw it. It was not right.
What these clubs should be aiming for is a more inclusive membership basis that would see them transition to being Australian clubs – that is Australian in the best sense and not some approximation of Britishness. Perhaps an historic example (from what I understand) is the transition of AC Milan from being an “English” football club in Italy to being an Italian club. The club’s English heritage is unmistakable – witness the St George’s Cross on their badge and the fact they are called “Milan” and not the Italian Milano. However, the fact that, these days, AC Milan is 100% Italian is inescapable. Over the last century Italians have taken something from elsewhere and made it their own. This wasn’t done by keeping the club English but by the club being part of its community.
Does anyone know what the membership makeup of the old NSL clubs is like? Do they still resolutely cling to the old ways from the old countries or are they more representative of the Australia we share? For example do they have some members of Indian or Chinese heritage? Perhaps an Irish migrant has signed up? Maybe some pacific islanders like to attend a few games? If not what are these clubs doing about it?
Spezza said | December 28th 2009 @ 10:28am | Report comment
Get over it NSL had area based clubs like parramatta power etc but people didnt support them simple get over it!!!
until the mainstream media gets behind football in this country instead of promoting dead games like cricket a-league will not work as parramatta power didnt.
Get over it, clubs can be made up of whatever they like if you feel scared because people of othe backgrounds are their at the game you need help
rugbyfuture said | December 28th 2009 @ 10:32am | Report comment
i agree with most of what you said but slamming cricket as dead is simply unaustralian ;-P
especially considering its the number one sport in this country
danny said | December 28th 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
60,000 fans in to watch a dead game on saturday mate.
peaceful co-existence.
etat said | December 28th 2009 @ 10:59am | Report comment
I felt scared when I was racially abused while trying to stop some racial abuse. That’s what the old NSL represented to me – a vehicle for racial intolerance.
I think that one of the requirements for the old ethnic minority clubs to develop into proper top level football clubs is maintain elements of their heritage whilst diversifying their membership as much as possible. For example a club like APIA Leichhardt is probably doing this as more of the old Italians move on and they recruit new members from the new diverse professional population in their local area.
Are the other old ethnic clubs diversifying their memberships to be more representative?
Aussie born Croat said | December 28th 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
If Sydney United or any other ethnic teams were to enter the A League then there would be on average of 3 000 to 4 000 extra away supporters at each A League match. I live too far from Edensor Park so I would go and support Sydney United if they were to play at the Sydney Football Stadium. Yesterday I went to Sydney FC verse Adelaide United and the away supporters looked like a joke. The “Red Army” only had 10 “soldiers”. I was also at the Sydney FC verse Central Coast Mariners. The away supporters were made up of roughly 100 or a little more people. For both mathces the atmosphere was very dull and boring. The only section of the crowd which was chanting was the section of the stadium taken up by The Cove. They sound very great however the rest of the stadium did not make a single noise. However if a team like Sydney United was to come and play in the Sydney Football Stadium there would be at least 4 000 Croatian’s who’ll come down to support their team. The atmosphere would be much better than those two matches I went to watch.
I believe any team should be allowed to enter the A League or any proposed A2/B League if they had the financial means to support themselves. But I highly doubt that any major cooperation’s (e.g. Bing Lee, Tandy) would want to be associated with ethnic clubs. They’ll be to wary to have their names associated with clubs who have a history of violence and also they’ll know that these clubs are only followed by small ethnic minorities which means it would not be attractive for these cooperation’s to sponsor these small teams with a narrow supporter base. Also the FFA should only allow two teams in both Sydney and Melbourne in the A League competition. The reason for this is because Sydney has to many NRL clubs and Melbourne the same with AFL. If there were to be 3 or more A League teams in those major cities then the little number of A League followers in those cities would go and support the team which represents their kinship group or suburb and Sydney FC would be getting an average attendance of 10 000 (their current average) diveded by 3.
The only solution for the ethnic club’s is to make a second tier national competition. But there should be no promotion or relegation. These ethnic teams should only ever be allowed to enter the A League if they have the financial backing. But as already stated it would be very unlikely that these clubs would gain any major cooperate sponsorship. The only way these clubs could raise the $4 million to start up an A League team is if a rich person from the Croatian, Italian, Greek and etc community was to buy the club.
Ethnic supporters (just like me) must realise that our teams will most likely never enter the A League. The FFA believes the only way to gain the sponsorship and theoretically gain the wider interest of the general public (although the last two Sydney FC matches I attended shows there is not much interest for a team which represents 4 million people) is to create clubs which do not give certain people a feeling of they do not belong at the stadium. The FFA believes the best way forward for Sydney is to create a second A League team based in the Western Suburbs. Peoples from all ethnic backgrounds would feel welcomed to go and support this club but more importantly it would be more attractive for the sponsors. The Western Sydney Club should have her main ground as Parramatta Stadium but play two or three other home games in other stadiums located across the Western Suburbs because I remember Syd FC vs a NSW state team several years back in a friendly at CUA stadium and there was a 5 000 plus crowd with no promotional campaigns.
But if Sydney United was ever to enter the A League and reproduced the class of 1996/1997 I would guarantee you all that the away supporters end at a Sydney FC vs Sydney United in Sydney Football Stadium would give The Cove a run for their money and make “The Red Army” look like a joke.
dasilva said | December 28th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
I don’t mind clubs with ties to ethnic clubs if they rebrand the club into a multicultural club to serve the community
There’s a difference between a club popular with an ethnic community and a ethnic club itself
I remember Melbourne Southern Cross bid getting unfairly dismissed simply because of minority (about 5%) ownership by south melbourne. however if they were willing to diversify their fan based and advertised themselves as an Australian club (which they did, after all it has the southern cross logo on it) and follow FFA strict criteria on flags (no non-Australian flags are allowed into the stadium) then they should be allow to join the Aleague or B-league.
etat said | December 28th 2009 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
nice distinction dasilva. I think what you’re suggesting would be a nice tie between the past and the future. The strong cultural backgrounds of many great Australian football clubs would serve as a good foundation for strong multicultural clubs of the future.
I remember Melb Southern Cross’ bid and thought it a little unfair they copped what they did. Has there ever been a bid with more than one older club taking a share e.g. Melbourne Knights and South Melbourne?
Footbal Person said | December 28th 2009 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
How many people do exspect to go to Sydney from Adelaide to watch a dead rivalry?
albatross said | December 28th 2009 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
If a Croatian backed club was to enter the HA-L it would be the end of the HA-L. They would groom their players for the Croatian National Team and their innately violent supporters would ruin games for neutral and opposition supporters.
Aussie born Croat said | December 28th 2009 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
If the A League continues the downward spiral it has found herself in then in five years Melbourne Victory will be the only club being able to keep herself alive financially. Whether the FFA should allow ethnic clubs enter the HA-L or a proposed A2/B League to make the competition/s more interesting is up to debate. But something needs to be changed. There are several clubs across the competition who are controlled or partially controlled by the FFA. The like’s of Brisbane Roar, Gold Coast United, Perth Glory will probably no longer exsist in five years time if no changers are to occur because they can only attract crowds of 2 000 to 7 000. Some of these teams need 15 000 at least to break even on the cost of renting their stadiums.
As for your comment albatross. Both Dinamo Zagreb and Hajduk Split have offered Sydney United to buy their accademies to produce players for their respective first team. However Sydney United rejected these offers because the club said they’ll rather have their youth players go to play for A League teams even when their getting ripped off in the transfere’s. Also its not the clubs choice which national team their players play for. Its the players choice. You seem to forget how many past and present Soccerross Sydney United have produced and how many other Soccerross have been produced by ethnic clubs… Australia is a very young country. Almost half or maybe more then half of the population are only 1st or 2nd generation Australian so it is bound to happen that some of these players who come from ethnic backgrunds will choose to play for their respective homelands…
albatross said | December 28th 2009 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
Let’s not forget that it was Croatian officials who set up the playing of “Deutschland über alles” instead of the Israeli national anthem before that WC qualifier. But then again our Croatian “guests” – and they were never more than that in a lot of cases – were only here because they had out-SSed the SS during WW2 and were too unacceptable for the USA even.
Were Didulica, Šerić, Šimunić and their ilk ever brought up to even consider playing for Australia? Mind you they were not too Croat not to suck on the taxpayer’s teat at the AIS.
AndyRoo said | December 28th 2009 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
Letting in a mono ethic team would be commercial suicide for the A league.
sponsership would fall and guys like Tony Sage would be smart enough too see the writing on the wall and move on.
John said | December 28th 2009 @ 9:38pm | Report comment
well this debate will never be over, some people love the A-League, some hate it and love the old NSL and the old clubs.
The A-League is what is here and now so if you love football you will support the A-League yes it is not the best league in the world and it in not the worst but it is OURS.
In saying this I love the old clubs to but sadley there is all the ethnic problems attched to the old clubs, South Melbourne was my fav club and I am not greek, I often ask could south have been in the A-League and not Victory who I support, would have everyday melbourne people supported south we will never know, if the A-league does get a lot more popular mabe try to bring some old clubs back in a hay if a lot of greeks support the club great and enjoy your football support your team in time people from every day melbourne will start to support the club.
One other thing get rid of Wellington Phen and we need to lith the wage cap to the same as MLS but in our own $ or make it at leas $4 or $5 milloin AUD
Aussie born Croat said | December 28th 2009 @ 10:08pm | Report comment
Croatian’s came to Australia in plane’s unlike your ancestors albatross. Your ancestors came in shackles. When these Croatians came to Australia the Australian government wanted them to stay in Australia permantly because they had a policy called “POPULATE OR PERISH.” … Once again I must remind you how many Socceross are members of the Croatian disporia in Australia. Go look up at the line ups or the squad’s of the Soccerross in the past 30 years and tell me how many of those squads don’t have a member of the Croatian disporia in Australia or was at least not produced by Sydney United or Melbourne Knights.
Before you start implying that Croatians are racist by setting up the “Deutschland über alles” instead of the Israeli national anthem (I higly doubt this ever happened) go look at whats happening in Australia. In Melbourne Indian students are being stabbed in train stations because of their ethnicity. Across all of Australia Asians are being insulted because of their race. And look at how you treat your own indigenous population. Before you comment about other people’s countries look at your own.
Whats wrong with Seric, Simunic and Didulica being brought up to play for Croatia? Australia should be greatful that the like’s of Culina, Jedinak, Kalac, Milicic, Popovic, Zelic, Zdrilic, Skoko, Milicevic, Viduka and many more players who I cbf naming now that are members of the Croatian disporia decided to play for Australia instead of Croatia. Seriously go look up all of the past and present Socceross saquads and tell me how well do you think Australia would’ve gone with out these players (although I think Viduka would’ve been the only player capable of actually ever bing called up for Croatia).
rugbyfuture said | December 28th 2009 @ 10:37pm | Report comment
indians are getting bashed not because of their ethnicity but because they’re seen as easy targets to mug, asians are only insulted when they are just as racist back, as im a halfy i know that they are some of the most racist against white people who cant speak mandarin (mainland chinese). it is all well and true to comment about racism when you are removed from a place, but don’t experience it. The indiginous population is a problem getting fixed.
populate or perish was actually only recognising those western european countries rather that from the slavic areas and the caucous.
and you are exactly what they are critical of, as, if you were an aussie born croat, you obviously had more pride in the old croatia and croatian ancestry than australia, a place you were born, which is exactly what the NSL amplified with the dangerously ethnicly divided clubs. and to everyone else, the right to the clubs having cultural identity is just, but having racism and old beat ups and contentious issues such as land rights and old (settled) wars, outside of this great land is not.
bever fever said | December 28th 2009 @ 10:49pm | Report comment
I don’t want to get into any sort of race slanging match, but plenty of croatians came here by ship after ww2 and were given a chance of a new life, having said that they have contributed enormously to Australia in many ways.
But i dont like the way you say “your indigenous population etc “, going by your name you are Australian and therefore according to your comment you should take blame for their plight as well.
When talking about croatians in Australia i love to put the South fremantle football club croatian team of the century up.
From a two page article in the West Australian .
Bulldogs dream team .(From FB)
Jon Dorotich Darren Gaspar Travis Gaspar
Damien Gaspar Glen Jakovich Danny Civich
Rod Grijusich Tony Parentich Otto Santich
Eric Sarich Tom Grijusich Allen Jakovich
Peter Sumich John Gerovich Scott Watters
Ruck jack Sumich Mathew pavlich jack Rocchi
INT Ivan Glucina George Grijusich Tony begovich dean Ercegovich
Emergencies
Don,Mark,Andy & Ross Grijusich,Ivan Bartul,Matt & Mark Sambrailo,Budi,Laurie & JoeSumich,Murray Bogunovich,Branko & CraigCivich,Joe & NickSilich,David & Terry Lucich,Kym Zubrinich,Frank Lendich,Bob Bucat,Gary Cukrov,Jason,Surjan,Dennis Novak,John,Pavlovic,Gary Jakovich
Pavlich whilst from SA did play a few games for SF prior to playing for the Dockers.
jimbo said | December 28th 2009 @ 11:37pm | Report comment
So you have to play AFL to be considered Australian?
bever fever said | December 28th 2009 @ 11:46pm | Report comment
If that is directed at me … of course not.
Working Class Rugger said | December 28th 2009 @ 11:04pm | Report comment
Aussie born Croat
Don’t you mean Australian of Croatian decent. Your nationality is determined by birth. If you’re born in Aus then you’re an Aussie. As for bringing old world attitudes. Ummm… Anyone for the Aus Open. Weren’t those two groups Croats and Serbs. Sadly these issues are still lingering and have on many occasions especially at sporting events have reared there ugly heads.
jimbo said | December 28th 2009 @ 11:35pm | Report comment
Some good points for discussion Alex and this is one of the biggest dilemmas that the sport’s governing bodies, both state and national, are faced with.
Not all clubs in the old NSL were ethnic or nationalistic clubs and they tried very hard to engage the local communities.
There are a lot of positives that came out of the ethnic communities and not just for sport. There are many, many benevolent ethnic business men and women who donate large amounts of money to the community and the development of juniors and not just football.
But somehow the nationalistic minorities have given the vast majority of decent footballing immigrants a bad name and spoilt it for everyone else.
I’ve been to literally hundreds of football games in Australia and have never been involved in or seen any ethnic violence or threatening incidents. Everyone else I talk to about it says the same thing.
The worst behaviour and violence I saw in Australian sport was at a one day cricket match with over a hundred arrests for violence and drunken behaviour.
Guess what the back page headline the next day was? – “Bevan the Hero”.
If the police were even just called to a football game and no one was arrested, the Telegraph back page headline would read “Ethnic Soccer Violence”.
I think there are a lot of football supporters in this country who will never go to see an A-League game – some are Eurosnobs, who only watch the best and some are Ethnic followers who are somehow offended by being left out by the FFA. A-League attendances are not a true measure of the sport’s popularity.
Its not an easy one to solve, but the maturing of the A-League (and our country) and the foundation of a second A-League team in Melbourne and Western Sydney will see a greater outreaching of the A-League into the communities who feel left out – ethnic or otherwise.
Aussie born Croat said | December 29th 2009 @ 12:18am | Report comment
Populate or Perish was originally for only western European countries. But after the initial immigrants came the numbers were drying up so the Australian government opened her doors to Slavic nations. Australia never had any issues with Croatians living in Australia because the point of Populate or Perish was to populate the country. Therefore they wanted the Croatian’s to live in Australia permanently.
Rugbyfuture yes I admit that there were some embarrassing moments which occurred between the different ethnic supported soccer/football clubs in the old NSL and a couple years back in the NSW Premier League. But those incidents only occurred between a small minority of the crowd. If a Sydney United or Melbourne Knights and etc were to enter the A League or A2/B League the FFA should ban hooligans for life or not allow away supporters of some ethnic clubs to attend matches. But you have to remember it is not the clubs which promoted those actions and more than 90% of people belonging to those ethnic groups were embarrassed by the actions of their fellow countrymen.
Also rugbyfuture you attack me for having pride in my “Old” Croatia. Well do you remember that Australians only started calling themselves Australian after WW2. Before then they were proud to be part of the British Empire. Why did Australia enter WW1 when non of her interests were at sack? Because the Australians wanted to defend “mother” England. Why did Australia have still had some soldiers stationed in Europe when Japan was on her very own doorsteps? Because those Australians wanted to protect their mother state interests. Some of those Australians who fought in WW1 and WW2 were several generations Australians yet they still felt more pride to the land of their ancestry. You see it is natural for all people who have only lived in a country for a couple generations to feel more pride to the homeland of their kinship group then the country of their birth. Even the general Australian public once had the same feeling of patriotisms to their homeland which I do towards mine.
Australia cannot expect to have one day 14 professional clubs (A-League) and 14 semi professional clubs (A2/B League) with out any ethnic clubs. Imagine the NSW and Victorian state leagues without their ethnic clus? The competitions would get no spectators. Now try to imagine the FFA trying to prop up a second tier competition without any ethnic clubs? Maybe one or two non ethnic clubs from the state leagues would want to join. But no other investers would want to invest into a club which is playing second tier football in a country that can only attract 7 000 people for some first tier matches. Put simply these ethnic clubs would be the only clubs capable of drawing crowds in any proposed A2/B League team.
rugbyfuture said | December 29th 2009 @ 1:11am | Report comment
i did not specifically attack your pride in croatia, but rather the fact you obviously held more pride in the fact you were croation than australian, the place, by your name, of your birth.
the fact is that those 10% of people who did incite racial violence cut off the stream to new supporters of different nationalities and those people could not be stopped with such close ties.
and as for the world wars, you will find that australianism is actually a developed ideal from the conception of the nation and, i am aware that those diggers represented australia and the english on the fronts, however, this same statement about not bein on the home front could be applicable to the US, Canada and many other nations. the Fact is these people were perfectly aware of the actual country they were representing and this is how our Diggers became one of the finest Defence Forces in the world, from the boxer rebellion and the boer war through to vietnam and the current world issues.
in one mind, one could say they were of the idea that they were protecting freedom rather than anything else, as any sportsmans sport should be dedicated not to their teams in the entirety but rather the sport as a whole.
as for having a tier 2 league not supported by ethnic clubs, i do believe this is possible in soccer or football. “the world game” has this beauty in it. the northern spirit were an example of this, and they supported my soccer club in the junior years and the surrounding ones very well.
Gibbo said | December 29th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
i think an important point to make is that the current head of state in australia is still the representative of THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND.
that rebublic vote failed and we are still part of the commonwealth… not saying i agree with it, but the fact remains
etat said | December 29th 2009 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
the Queen is the Australian Head of State. The Queen delegates her powers to the Governor General Quentin Bryce and makes separate delagates to the State Governors.
Matt said | December 29th 2009 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
Here here.
Kieran James said | December 31st 2009 @ 12:32am | Report comment
Agree with you completely mate. Where would the Scottish Premier League be without an ethnic club for Scottish Catholics and Irish known proudly as Celtic FC? I plan to write an academic article on the topic of this thread- would appreciate hearing more of your views, kieran_james@yahoo.com
Roger Rational said | December 31st 2009 @ 12:40am | Report comment
Probably better off mate, since most people in Scotland call the Old Firm “The Ugly Sisters” and reckon their bitter sectarian rivalry ruins it for everyone else.
Kieran James said | December 31st 2009 @ 9:40pm | Report comment
Hi Roger Rational, your comments are interesting but let’s analyse it further. Celtic and Rangers generate huge crowds, I think the SPL has the largest crowds per head of population in Europe. We might doubt or despise sectarianism but it is sectarian passion that contributres to what makes Old Firm games great – AND brings in the crowds. I doubt a non-sectarian Glasgow team called “Glasgow United” would attract people but I could be wrong. What would be left of the SPL without the Old Firm? You would be left with Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs and some minor clubs that can’t draw 10,000 people., The Hearts firm is connected to the right-wing of politics so there is a sectarian aspect to Hearts versus Hibs anyway. And if you think sectarianism is the cause of violence in the SPL, it is well documented that the first Scottish hooligan firm was Aberdeen Soccer Casuals, associated with a non-ethnic club. Celtic Soccer Crew formed only in response to them,. There are implications for Australia. I’m not Croatian but I love the passion that Melbourne Knights generated and the A-League franchises can’t replicate that. I support the Knights, Preston, South, Marconi etc for a B-League. Kieran.
Aussie born Croat said | December 29th 2009 @ 12:30am | Report comment
Working Class Rugger,
I define my nationality by who I was conceived by. What if I was born in Australia but my future children were to be born in China? Does that mean my children will be Chinese with an Australian dad and Croatian grandparents?.. But thats the way I define my nationality. If you define your nationality as the country of your birth then thats good for you and I am not going to change your mentality.
As for the Aus Open. When the Croatians were involved they were at the recieving end of attacks from Serb’s. The Croatian’s were not the one’s kicked out by the police. I would know because I was there. But either way I still find it embarrasing when Croatians are involved in some ethnic brawl. Whether or whether not we started it the majority of Croatians get embarrassed by the actions of this small minority.
Mushi said | December 29th 2009 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Um yes they would be Chinese until naturalised in another country. Nationality, by definition, is determined by either birth or naturalisation.
You can say otherwise but you’d be just making stuff up or using the word nationality incorrectly.
Heritage is determined by your forefathers not nationality.
Aussie born Croat said | December 29th 2009 @ 10:33am | Report comment
No country ever enters a conflict just to “protect” the freedom of people. Countries only ever enter conflicts when their national interests are at sack. Except Australia. Tell me rugbyfutuer would of Australia entered WW1 or WW2 (remember Australia’s involvement in WW2 did not start in the Pacific but in Europe) to “protect freedom” if the Australian mother land “Mother Britian/England” did not enter the two world wars? I highly doubt any Australians would of volountered to go and fight in Gallipoli, France and etc if “Mother Britian/England” was not involved… I am not attacking Australia’s involvement in the two World War’s. I am only saying this to emphasis one of my last points that it is natural for some people to have more pride in the land which their families come from (or as you like to put it rugbyfuture, the nationality which the people “were”). Australians to had the same feeling which I experience to my homeland to their very own motherland. The proof is all of those Australian’s dying in the all of the British Empire Wars for what? Australia got absoloutely nothing out of those war’s. Whilst “Mother Britian/England” was able to keep hold of her colonial possession’s.
As for the 10% of ethnic people who incite violence. The number is really only around 2% or 3% of the ethnic people who go to the soccer matches. If those ethnic teams were to enter a national 2nd division then the FFA should consider tougher measures then the one’s they had in the old NSL… But either way the only way a 2nd division could become possible in Australia is with the involvment of ethnic clubs. As I already stated earlier before there would be no way non ethnic clubs with no history could attract people to come and watch a 2nd division football/soccer match. If the FFA did create a 2nd division with no ethnic teams then we’ll see the division would collapse after 2 seasons… But I know you’ll stubonly hold onto the belief that somehow Australia will be able to create 14 semi pro clubs from scratch because you jusrt want to see ethnic clubs collapse. But if the day ever come’s and Australia does ever have a 2nd division you’ll see that at least a quater of the teams will be ethnic because the FFA knows these teams would be the only one’s capable of drawing a crowd to 2nd division matches.
AndyRoo said | December 29th 2009 @ 10:41am | Report comment
these teams would be the only one’s capable of drawing a crowd to 2nd division matches.
I believe you and it’s one of the reasons I think a second division is a waste of time with little benefit.
etat said | December 29th 2009 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Aus Born Croat – re your comments on identity and the World Wars – In World War 1 Australia did quite well with possessions in the Pacific. Have a look at the treaty of versailles, which Australia signed, for the details. In world war 2 we fought for freedom and democracy – our existence as a country was on the line.
Also, the idea of Australia was developed in the early 1800s, Flinders coined the term and Macquarie popularised it. It was attached to a nation-state on 1 January 1901. You are right that, in those days, many Australians also thought of themselves as British but this is usually considered to be an expression of dual identity under empire rather than direct descent from a motherland. Today, while you might find that many Australians will have some British forbears, very few will think theiy’re British. From 1800 to 2000 is a 200 year journey of developing a concept of nation and state… and it’s still going.
In a small way changing and growing our (yours and my) idea of who we are as Australians is what the inclusion of “ethnic” clubs in a 2nd division is about. Equally, ethnic clubs might have to change and grow their idea of who they are and what they represent to be part of a successful 2nd division.
Gibbo said | December 29th 2009 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
again, the head of state in Australia is a representative of the Queen of England.
Its a fact!
etat said | December 29th 2009 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
no that’s not true. The Australian head of state is the Queen herself… and she’s not the Queen of England she’s the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Queen is sovereign of the English and Scottish countries but her title reflects the fact that these “countries” are constituent parts of the nation state of the UK.
rugbyfuture said | December 29th 2009 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
actually in the head of state of australia she is the queen of australia and the rest of he commonwealth isnt she?
etat said | December 29th 2009 @ 5:00pm | Report comment
to split hairs further, the Queen, as Australian Head of State is the Queen of Australia. It is a separate monarchy. She is also Queen of Canada, Queen of New Zealand etc etc. They are all separate and distinct crowns. It’s a bit fake sure and probably wont last too much longer.
dasilva said | December 29th 2009 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
Australia wasn’t independent nation until 1942 with the adoption of the Statute of Westminister Act
Beforehand our foreign policy was dictated by England and was supported by law as well. If English Parliament wanted to legislate over australia and overule our parliament they could have done it. Our ties with England was not just culturally but LEGALLY as well which is a big difference.
In fact during the war Churchill wanted Australia to send troops to the Middle East and North Africa to fight the Axis. Curtin disagreed believing that we should maintain troops in Pacific to protect an invasion of Australia from the Japanese, it was only after this act was pass was Australia legally was able to do that (this was main reason why this laws a was enacted)
Since that act has been pass, there hasn’t been many if any wars were Australia rushed there to fight for England (it’s more like the USA if anything).
We might have became a nation in 1901 but we only became a legally independent nation in 1942.
When people say that the two world wars was the making of our country and our discovery of our individual identity. They are right and quite literally as well.
bever fever said | December 29th 2009 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
Many of the soldiers who went to fight in WW1 were British migrants who went to defend the old country, many were aussie born as well but the general feeling at the time was one of heiping the mother country out.
Interestingly at the time The Archbishop of Melbourne Daniel Mannix, who famously referred to the war as an imperialist one said that Australians, especially Catholics should not be involved it. Many of his followers sypathised, although this was likely a result of British action in Ireland during the Irish revolution in 1916.
WW1 was also a war where Australians were conscipted.
Matt said | December 29th 2009 @ 5:41pm | Report comment
The Westminster Act was passed in the 1930’s by the British Parliament but not passed by the Australian Parliament until the 40’s. In short, Australia at the time didn’t see the need for the legal separation.
We havent rushed to join wars with the UK. That is if you ignore the Malayan Emergency and Korea. THat is pretty much all they have been involved in apart from the Falklands during which Australia would have been incapable of any practical support.
dasilva said | December 29th 2009 @ 6:00pm | Report comment
Yeah I realise about the Westminster Act being passed in the 1930 by the English and that they didn’t see the need of legal separation until 1942 with the disagreement between Curtin and Churchill.
My point is generally based similar to what Gibbo saying is that Australian maintaining loyalties to England is a little bit different to children of migrants having loyalties to their country of parents birth. One is helping a country that we are allied to and are legally attached to (even now) that is not always present for children of migrants.
Fair point about the conflicts I overlooked although correct me if I’m wrong, I believe that australian joining Korean Wars was as much as furthering our relationship with USA as much as with UK.
bever fever said | December 29th 2009 @ 6:31pm | Report comment
Malaya conflict maybe ?.
dasilva said | December 29th 2009 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
yeah I overlooked the malaya conflict
Daniel said | December 29th 2009 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
First step align the State Leagues and HAL to an October-May season. Then think about promo-releg systems. In the mean time each HAL club should play every club in the local state league as a series of simultaneous local pre-season tournaments like Sydney FC did earlier this year. Hopefully that would build up relationships of sorts between the fans & clubs and would raise a bit of ca$h, if only for the opportunity to boo the HAL club. Good publicity for the sport in general at State League and HAL level. In five years time, the winners of the state leagues could win the right to contest the end of season tournaments – half finals footy, half promo/relegation.
albatross said | December 29th 2009 @ 9:37pm | Report comment
That is a frighteningly intelligent suggestion.
Aussie born Croat said | December 30th 2009 @ 10:25am | Report comment
etat,
Yes you do make a good point. During World War 1 Australia did go well with possessions in the Pacific. But it took Australia only the first couple of months to defeat Britain’s enemies in the Pacific. There was no need for Australian’s to go to get themselves killed in Gallipoli, France and etc just to hold onto those newly conquered lands. Germany, Austria-Hungary, Turkey and etc had no capability at the time to threaten Australia’s territory or interests. Australian’s fought in those places because they felt they were British and wanted to show to the world that they were proud to be Brits.
As for your comment on World War 2 go look at my comment about Australia’s involvement in World War 2. I said, “remember Australia’s involvement in WW2 did not start in the Pacific but in Europe”. That means I was not criticising Australia’s involvement in the Pacific theatre of World War 2 but her involvement in the European conflict. Australia’s territory was not threatened until 1941 when Japan began her expansion in the Pacific. However Australia was already involved in World War 2 for two years. Why? Because good old “Mother Britain’s/England’s” territory was under attack.
Australians use to send their son’s off in droves to fight for their families Motherland. Which began from the time Australia was first colonised until World War 2. We’re talking about in some cases 4th or 5th generation Australians getting themselves killed because they had a great feeling of British patriotism. However the closes things ethnic people have done in Australia to show their patriotism to their homelands is just creating ethnic social/sports clubs.
As for the A2/B League. I like Daniel’s idea. It would give the A2/B League club’s enough time to get rid of their negative image and also hopefully raise money in case they were to be promoted in ten or twenty years time to the A League. Also it would give A League clubs enough time to think of an emergency plan in case they get relegated in ten or twenty years time. I especially like the part where he says “the right to contest the end of season tournaments – half finals footy, half promo/relegation.” Maybe in ten or twenty year’s time when there is enough teams and money for a promotion/relegation system in Australia. The system should be the top quarter of the Hyundai A League team enters a championship finals series. Whilst the bottom quarter of the A League would enter a promotion/relegation final series with the top quarter of the A2/B League.
Also just changing the subject slightly what do you people think about the state clubs getting not enough compensation for developing players? What do you think of the compensation system instituted by FFA – and supported by the players’ union – which in many cases restricts them to receiving a maximum fee of $3000 for their best players? Look at Mile Jedinak. Sydney United took him into the club basically from the time he could walk. He spends a year at the Mariners and they end up getting an $800,000 transfer fee when he goes to Turkey [Genclerbirligi]. What did Sydney United get out of it? Including what Sydney United got out of the Mariners initially, they got $67,000 overall. How’s that fair? My suggestion for the FFA is to enforce a type of compensation system onto the Hyundai A League clubs by making them give state clubs a certain percentage of the transfer money they receive to the state club who the player originally came from. For example Jedinak was at Sydney United since he was a very young boy. So Sydney United deserves at least 30 to 40 per cent of the $800 000 the Mariners received from Genclerbirligi.
AndyRoo said | December 30th 2009 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
30% sounds about right to me. That doesn’t sound fair on the face of it but we (as in all aussie clubs together) only get big transfer fees if the player has a long term contract and it’s the A league clubs taking the biggest risk their so we have to keep that incentive in place.
While a Sydney United player if his career finished with an injury Sydney United wouldnt be out of pocket as he would have payed rego fees for much of his time their.
Jedinak is the most obvious case when pushing for more compo because he had been at Sydney United for so long. Most other players have a more murky back story and it’s really the junior club I want too see rewarded. for Jedi that was one and the same but for most players you spend approx 8 years with your junior club and if your good enough gravitate to the closest state league club. The state league clubs are a step in the pyramid.
Daniel said | December 30th 2009 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Thanks.
Is it true Jedinak transferred to a Croatian club during the 2003-04 season? Or did he just trial there? How much did Sydney United get for Jedinak when he was 19-20?? The value of his development as a junior at Sydney United should be fairly represented by that amount I would think. He played for the Australian u20 team so surely they got some good $ for him.
Are United claiming that they should be able to sell a player to a European club, have him come back, play him in the state league and trade him again to the next best offer they can get at the time, and then after the new club develops & trades him further up, cash in on the junior development work again? It’s justified to cash in on the senior development work but not to double dip after already getting $ for the junior development work.
If his development as a senior player came after that transfer at 3 clubs, then ideally the transfer from Sydney United to the Mariners would have had a sell-on clause. But United would have had little power in the negotiations at that time because they couldn’t further the ambitions of the player from the State League. Mariners had him for more than half of the time since he came back to Australia and put him on the stage where he earned NT honours.
A lump sum up front and a % of any further trade would be fair reward for development up to the time of transfer but it should be agreed up front. It is just that Mariners paid $64,000 over and above that amount. In principle this could be a prescribed law for all Australian transfers between state league clubs and HAL clubs. But if we did that there would be alot of instability from Bosmans and the smaller clubs dont have the financial clout to make it work signing players in case they make it big and pay off.
if the remaining transfer cash from Jedinak is invested into the new Mariners Academy then the club who took the risk, has been rewarded and reinvested in further youth development. The game wins. But it still doesnt strongly support more development at United. It’s unfortunate that United couldn’t offer Jedinak the opportunities that the Mariners could. The financial prospects for the game itself in Australia need to be grown and expanded and then shared around. We need a bigger pie more often, not a bigger slice for United on this 1 occasion.
In years to come, an ideal scenario would see at least an option for players to be trained in Australia by qualified coaches at low registration costs to their parents with staggered sell on clauses to reward to the development clubs retrospectively. The fractured development path of players in Australia is at the heart of the issue.
If you could figure out how to administrate and audit it effectively and efficiently, maybe have development clubs (state league levels) nationwide apply to FFA (or a sub-body) for an “Elite Player Development Licence” and from that achieve subsidised player registrations and coaching/training resources. Dictate the implementation of the national curriculum, minimum coaching requirements & subsidised resources & training with a clear pathway to NYL and HAL level. Parents could choose whether to send their child to a more expensive non-licenced club or a licenced highly resourced club with a clear career pathway.
Increase NYL/HAL links to the state league(eg. player/coach appearances at special training sessions, games between the clubs, NYL players to be contracted to the licenced clubs but loaned to the HAL clubs for NYL season with standard transfer agreement subject to negotiations, give members subsidised tickets to HAL/NYL games (reward going to many games – eg. attend 4, get 1 game free, finals tickets). At the end of season tournaments, all the NYL players go back to the senior squads of their original state league clubs or get promoted to the HAL squads. Now there’s some emotion.
So assuming United was licenced and playing in the “state league”, a future Jedinak would be trained as a junior, graduate to a financially supported United club from 14-18, then from 18-22 play for the Rovers NYL team, knock back a transfer offer to Croatia for the opportunity to further develop in the local system, go back to United for an end of season comp and against “state league” teams and Rovers, earn a senior squad role at Rovers, transfer to Mariners HAL as a free agent, play end of season finals with Mariners, transfer to Turkey on a $1 million transfer and have money go back to fund the infrastructure.
Is FFA trustworthy enough to implement such a system? Corruption would be a big potential problem.
chook said | December 31st 2009 @ 8:45pm | Report comment
bring it on, it might fall over but it probably worth a try.
I still think a FFA competition similar to the FA cup to see what crowds do come along, every team in Australia plays a sudden death till 10 teams are whittle down to play the 10 A – league clubs, it will give a good idea what the expected crowds are to be. Also in the UK teams like Fulham only get 15,000 some times to a Premier league game. In the Championship alot of team only have 10,000 seat stadiums. So your suggestion isnt impossible, but its having the owner funding the teams is . I say throw the whole on the A-League open to anyone, if you are trying to exisit on a false supporter base it will never work. The fittest survive. It happens every where else, nobody will help Manchester United if they got relegated.
Pave said | January 19th 2010 @ 2:35am | Report comment
Say for example we lived in a perfect world and promotion and relegation existed in the Australian soccer pyramid.
If say the Melbourne Knights, South Melbourne, Marconi or Sydney United won their respective league why should they be declined from entering the higher competition? Because of ethnicity? Pity these clubs pump money into their grounds and players and not into a racial vilification lawsuit to settle the question once and for all.
Regardless, at the FIFA summit in Sydney the statute about promotion and relegation was stressed that ANY teams that are eligible for promotion to a higher league do so on sporting merits, and sporting merits alone. Not if they were previously called Melbourne Croatia, not if too many of their player surnames end in ‘ic’ and certainly not for financial reasons. If a club is good enough to play in the top flight, let them play there.
The wogs, ethnics or whatever you want to call them brought this game to where it is today. We endured the David Hill era, and now we are enduring the post-NSL era. Do you think that the A-league would have come about had Australia made the World Cup in 1998? I highly doubt it.
I’m as full blooded a Croat you would find, and Melbourne Knights is my club. Don’t get me wrong the NSL had its problems. The lack of broad based support, corporate dollars and television exposure.
The lack of broad based support was a tough question to tackle for many of the clubs. I understand both sides of the argument but you have to understand when you look through a membership book from 1984 with 1,500 member names in there that are ALL Croatian, you see that it’s tough for a club to now go and sell these people out for ‘new’ fans which haven’t poured their months wages in supporting the club through a tough time, or building a grandstand from scratch.
Australia was built on the hard labour of the so-called General Assisted Package Scheme. It would seem Australian soccer was too, except the powers that be in the soccer world decided that these wogs didn’t even deserve a pension for all their hard work, tossing them onto the scrapheap and basically saying fend for yourselves, while making life even more difficult with transfer strictures and the like. It’s hard not to be bitter when you see what has become of your once great club and how it has been treated.
I would bet my bottom dollar that had the NSL been marketed to the shithouse like the A-league has, clubs would have gotten more mainstream support and thus felt more comfortable in not having to play the loyalty card every week with their traditional supporter base trying to keep them coming to games. This would have been the more logical solution, but as it happens with football and politics (and I’m not talking about the ethnic rivalry type) sometimes things don’t pan out as expected or as they should.
And before someone goes off on a tangent about footballing violence which was/is fuelled by ethnicity I suggest you read a paper written by respected soccer historian Roy Hay who has done a in depth study on the systematic false reporting of soccer violence in Australia to serve the purpose of various forces – other sports, anti-Immigration groups etc.
I eagerly await your heated and perspective-less replies.
Kieran James said | January 19th 2010 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
I agree 100% with Pave’s comments, and I’m of Scots Irish background. The NSL had the passion. If anyone needs reminding of this check out a video on youtube of Melbourne Knights v South Melbourne, Decembber 1994. If Knights, Sydney United, Marconi , Sydney Olympic, etc. are good enough on the football field they should be able to be promoted to A-League. Pave is right about the diverse ethnicity of Knights players: Remember in 1990 Awaritefe up front and Alan Davidson in the midfield? The percentage of Croatian players in the team was far below 50%. So really people object to the ethnicity of the fans, that is racism. We have gone back to the days in the 1950s when ethnic clubs in NSW could not play in the state premier league (Johnny Warren mentions this in his book Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters). Roy Hay’s work is fantastic, see also Garry Robson chapter in book Fear and Loathing in World Football. Re number of fans I think South Melbourne and Heidelberg have more fans than Gold coast United.