Kiwi quartet face World Cup despair
By Chris Barclay, 23 Aug 2011 Chris Barclay is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, Hosea Gear, Jarrad Hoeata, Liam Messam, Rugby Union, Wyatt Crockett
242 Have your say
Hosea Gear, Liam Messam, Wyatt Crockett and Jarrad Hoeata appear to have had their Rugby World Cup dreams dashed while the remainder of the All Blacks squad that lost to South Africa last weekend arrived in Brisbane for Saturday’s Tri Nations decider.
The 30-man squad will only be revealed on Tuesday – and some Cup-bound players are not required to play the Wallabies at Suncorp Stadium – but leaving their teammates at Sydney airport indicates they missed the cut unless the selectors have had a rethink.
Before the All Blacks headed to South Africa, coach Graham Henry said he would use only World Cup-bound players in his 26-strong squad to play the Wallabies.
Gear, a standout on last year’s grand slam tour of the UK and Ireland, seems to have been denied a wing berth while versatile loose forward Messam, who started at No.8 in the 18-5 loss to the Springboks in Port Elizabeth, could have been usurped by a late addition to the Tri-Nations squad, Victor Vito.
Tony Woodcock’s comeback from a foot injury looks to have ended Crockett’s hopes; Hoeata was always a stop-gap measure for Anthony Boric, who is scheduled to prove his fitness after another foot problem when North Harbour host Wellington on Friday night.
A group of 19 weary players arrived in Brisbane – two hours behind schedule after their flight from Johannesburg was delayed and they missed a connection.
An advance party of World Cup certainties who were spared the trip to South Africa – Richie McCaw, Daniel Carter, Kieran Read, Brad Thorn Owen Franks, Conrad Smith and Mils Muliaina – had checked into the team hotel earlier after a trouble-free hop across the Tasman.
Gear’s absence apparently translates to good news for Wellington and Hurricanes teammate Cory Jane; Sitiveni Sivivatu’s status is unclear as he nurses a fractured eye socket – Zac Guildford is in Brisbane, though possibly only as cover.
Colin Slade has been excused for his mixed performance against South Africa while Israel Dagg and Richard Kahui seem to have confirmed their selection after impressive efforts against the reigning world champions.
Although it is understood the players were told who would be burdened with ending New Zealand’s World Cup heartache at Eden Park on October 23 before they left South Africa, they were keeping quiet about their prospects.
Jane, an enthusiastic tweeter, told his Twitter followers “I need 2moro 2 hurry up cos I’m veddy (sic) nervous,” while waiting in the departure lounge at Sydney airport.
He was not included in the initial squad of 30 for the Tri Nations but was one of a quartet drafted in to cover for injury and excelled against the Springboks in Wellington.
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- All Blacks, Hosea Gear, Jarrad Hoeata, Liam Messam, Rugby Union, Wyatt Crockett
August 23rd 2011 @ 6:58am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 6:58am | Report comment
Victor Vito must be over the moon having beaten out Messam on the basis of 11 minutes this summer!
The most successful 11 minutes ever!
August 23rd 2011 @ 7:11am
Mungehead said | August 23rd 2011 @ 7:11am | Report comment
Most likely it was all down to Messam eliminating himself in SA. Someone had to pay for the demolition of our forward pack.
Vito better prove his worth if he’s really in.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:45am
KiwiDave said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:45am | Report comment
Wait, summer? What happened in summer?
August 23rd 2011 @ 7:15am
Mungehead said | August 23rd 2011 @ 7:15am | Report comment
I thought Crockett had played himself into the side, more than Afoa had at the very least. I would have booted Afoa just based on his performance in SA.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:08am
cinematic said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Crockett is deficient at scum time.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:31am
KiwiDave said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:31am | Report comment
And Afoa plays both sides.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:50am
Taniwha said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:50am | Report comment
Though neither very well..
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:56am
KiwiDave said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:56am | Report comment
On his last performance that’s true, but on Crocketts performance against the Wallabies he only plays one side not very well. I just really hope Woodcock’s foot holds up…
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:57am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Zing!
August 23rd 2011 @ 2:30pm
Kuruki said | August 23rd 2011 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
Tell that to all the front rows he destroyed all season
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:11am
ohtani's jacket said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Afoa was first three to the breakdown 23 times in that match, second to only Whitelock.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:05am
mattamkII said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:05am | Report comment
correct – Crockett plays way too lose for test rugby.
looks great scoring tries at super rugby level but lets be honest, when it comes down to the last 8 teams you want your props head down ass up rather than running over the line like a dressage pony.
August 23rd 2011 @ 7:25am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 7:25am | Report comment
I’m a happy camper
I hope this does show Messam is being dropped for the WC. Rubbish at Test level,
Guildford work rate may have got him there. I prefer Gear but he didn’t show enough. I don’t think Zac will be playing the big matches anyway.
Hoeata is too green. All Black of the future.
Crockett, wasn’t smart enough at Eden park, but I hope he gets another run next year. Fingers crossed for no prop injuries… I don’t want Afoa in a big game.
August 23rd 2011 @ 7:37am
katzilla said | August 23rd 2011 @ 7:37am | Report comment
Yeah, it’s a shame but Gear was always going to miss out on the back of his two matches.
Guildford may not be the game breaker Gear is but results speak for themselves, and Guildfords hard work and ability to read the play got the results.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:03am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:03am | Report comment
Guildford should be doing anything in the world but playing rugby for New Zealand!
Has the world gone crazy???
Poor Messam, he never has a chance to get into test rugby, just these one-offs.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:10am
cinematic said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:10am | Report comment
kpm this is the AB’s not the Waikato 2nd 15. If you get a chance then you better grab it. Messam didn’t, and he had several.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:14am
thurl said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:14am | Report comment
I’m happy if Messam isn’t in the squad. he’s had 9 one offs to show us he’s got something. How many more do you need? Not too sure about Vito though. Looked all right during S15 but needs to prove he can step up to test rugby and has learn’t from the Hong Kong test last year.
I wouldn’t assume Guiford is in just yet. There’s two articles in the NZ Herald this morniong, one saying he is, one saying he’s not. I would prefer Gear, but you have to admit, Guilford has worked hard and got results. If hes in he deserves it
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:44am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:44am | Report comment
4 in a row, and STARTS not cameos over the bench which show nothing.
That’s how players develop.
Let’s hope Guildford hasn’t got it.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:53am
Taniwha said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:53am | Report comment
I am with you on this one KPM. Guildford for all his “work rate” is just to small when against quality opponents, can’t bust a tackle or really create anything. The super 15 final gave enough clear evidence of this. I hope Siti makes it.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:59am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:59am | Report comment
Taniwa all the wings under consideration and several of those not involved at all have serious attacking ability. New Zealand is full of them. How they can end up with one of the only players without it is extraordinary.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:03am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:03am | Report comment
How can you say that, when he’s never been given a run of 3-4 test starts in a row?
August 23rd 2011 @ 2:33pm
Kuruki said | August 23rd 2011 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
Guildford is a finisher with a high workrate. What more can you ask for? Not everyone in the squad needs to be a gamebreaker we all saw how that worked out on the weekend.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:14am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:14am | Report comment
Poor Messam he’s never played a decent test match in his life. He’s like Spies – big guy, great athlete, but plays like he’s 20kg lighter than he actually is.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:35am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Unlike most of the top 60 AB candidates he manifestly has no talent. There’s some point in giving a shot to a talented player, to see if they’re up to a higher level. But not to a talentless one.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:58am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Is it the actual Zac Guilford we’re talking about or the hypothetical KPM version? Cause with every other player you talk about there’s this mythical version that never seems to be sighted in real life.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:00am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:00am | Report comment
The only one there is, an appalling one. Even his supporters concede his talent is mediocre. He is the one player out of all under consideration that has insufficent talent. The rest have enough talent, but some have other problems too.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:08am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Ok – let’s take an honest look at Guilford.
He’s not elusive with ball in hand and isn’t gonna create much in that area. However, he’s very good at support play, runs good lines without the ball, is safe under the high ball, safe on defence and can follow a game plan.
If you limit the definition of ‘talent’ to the sort of stuff you see on a youtube highlights package, I’d agree with you. But it’s not – all that other stuff requires talent and he does it better than the alternatives that are gonna miss out.
Doug Howlett, other than his first couple of years, wasn’t creative with ball in hand either but he had did all that stuff Guilford does (except he couldn’t kick) efficiently. And he’s the all time top try scorer for the AB’s.
I’m not a Guilford fanboy, I wouldn’t care in the slightest if he missed out and Gear or whoever made it, but your opinion of him is so extreme it’s bizarre. And, like many other players, it seems you’re not bothering to look at what actually happens on the pitch when you form your opinions.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:11am
mattamkII said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:11am | Report comment
Jerry, I agree re: Spies. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Sure he makes some great ground off the back of a scrum but that’s it. He does naff all in tight.
I’d have that mongrel fella from the stormers….whats his name..Duane Vermeulen. Although he’s listed as a flaker he played a lot at 8 this year and really impressed.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:16pm
Sylvester said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:16pm | Report comment
Howlett was never a great creator, had no giant side step or swerve, but he was a great finisher and a great support player. Scored 49 tries in 62 tests, so that sort of player does have value. That’s what Guildford brings.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:15am
zheenry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Agree with you about Messam, he has the speed of a winger but has not been used that way and very difficult with the odd one off game. Vito has potential for sure but don’t think under pressure he is better than Messam. Messam has not been prominent but he has done a lot of intelligent things in enabling his team mates.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:25am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Yeah, I don’t rate Vito as a test XV player just yet. He needs a mean streak ala Jerome Kaino. Actually, he reminds me of early Kaino (05-6) a bit before he tightened his game up and started playing a more traditional 6 role.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:28am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:28am | Report comment
zheenry everyone criticises players like Messam as if they’ve really had a chance to fail. I don’t think unless player has had a few games in a row that they have a chance to get used to the higher level and intensity of test rugby. Messam is very gifted as you say but he’s not given long enough to show it.
He is the ideal player for a running game.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:19am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Jerry Guildford is not a particularly good attacking player. He has some virtues, in fact you named them, but the All Blacks have a mountain of players with massive attacking talent, by which I mean they can change games, make breaks and are basically good attacking players. They don’t need a solid but unremarkable player like him. Maybe another team would have no one better, but any of the other candidates is potentially a match winner is well used and most of them are pretty solid too. Choosing Guildford is bizarre and the oddest decision made by the AB coaches in the last four years.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:27am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Let’s compare him with the alternatives (leaving out the guys that look like they’ve made it and Sivi who’s injured)
Ranger is not solid. He’s barely competent at Super Rugby level in many areas.
Maitland is solid, I agree, but he’s not as good as many think he is and I dunno if his plus side (at this stage) outweighs the fact that Guilford is MORE solid.
Gear is still a bit one dimensional and goes missing too often at test level. He’s been given a fair shot and has never really fired against TN opposition. He’s got no kicking game and isn’t great under the high ball.
Like I said, I wouldn’t really care if any of them had made it over Guilford but there is a logic to the decision and you’re simply being obtuse or ignorant if you can’t accept that.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:07pm
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
Ranger may not be so solid, but offers so much more in attack that it is worth it, and in any case Henry should have worked out he has far more ability than Guildford and played and developed him last year instead of Guildford and Henry, during this time, should have MADE him solid, as a top international coach should be capable of doing.
Maitland is a billion times superior to the wretched Guildford, and solid too.
Gear is generally quite solid as you saw in the last match. He is good in certain situations and when fit, whereas Guildford in contrast is incapable of goodness.
There is a logic to the decision: a paranoid logic.
August 23rd 2011 @ 1:29pm
thurl said | August 23rd 2011 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Why is it Henrys fault that Ranger needs trick photoography to catch a ball. Surely you could point a finger or two at Pat Lam. Or Ranger himself for that matter
There nothing paranoid in the decision at all if you look past your own delusional logic. I see Dagg, toeava and Mills as the back three with Jane on the bench. (maybe swap jane and Toeava) Guilford is there to play pool games as he doesn’t fit the utility requirements of a bench player.
You’re certainly living up to your own observation of NZ fans passionately bagging the players they disaprove of. And I have to admit, you do bring a level of amusment to the Roar
August 23rd 2011 @ 2:44pm
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
You’re an odd fish, KPM. Thankfully, you seem to be a one of a kind.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:28am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:28am | Report comment
I agree with you on Guildford. Good player, but there are players who bring what he brings and more. He won’t let the team down and he is a great finisher. I would like a player who adds “Creating” to the role also. The only thing I would look out for in a replacement would be error rate and work rate off the ball.
August 23rd 2011 @ 2:40pm
Kuruki said | August 23rd 2011 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
I disagree 100 percent. You do need solid “unremarkable ” players like him. Put Conrad Smith in the midfield last week and we would have converted more then one line break into points. How can you question Guildford when he crossed the line twice in his match against the Bok all these other so called x factor players could not. I don’t understand how people can constantly write off the importance of players like Smith and Guildford. We all saw the result of an x factor filled back line on the weekend, yes they look great yes they beat men one on one but did they finish the job? No. That’s where Smith and Guildford have it over the other guys, they might not create as many line breaks and opportunities but they do convert most of the one’s they get.
August 23rd 2011 @ 7:03pm
boxer said | August 23rd 2011 @ 7:03pm | Report comment
kingplaymaker youve got it backwards mate.. guildford definitely good enough, messam does not belong in test rugby
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:09am
allblackfan said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:09am | Report comment
Gear may get in; don’t think Vito will. Suspect Matt Todd may get a callup (can play openside flanker or wing!). Sivivatu may get in but Rokocoko may have played his last test!
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:12am
cinematic said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:12am | Report comment
Gear’s goneburger. He’s just not a complete enough winger. Rok is miles from the squad. I will be surprised if Sivi misses out, he was pretty awesome in his outings this international season.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:30am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:30am | Report comment
Vito may get Messams spot as he plays to his role a bit better. Messam plays too loose. We have enough backs on the paddock. They should base their games on Read. Just follow the ball and that will lead to linking and support. Vito is the closest to this and makes better decisions on attack then Messam.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:31am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:31am | Report comment
all7days no one’s suggesting displacing Reid/Kaino from the team at all. We’re talking about backups here.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:51am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Sorry, but where did i say that? I said they should base their games on Read because he shows how to actually play within his role. Messams way of playing is obviously rubbish at test level. Vito is closer and shows more potential at being able to play the utility role. His can hit rucks and has pace for outwide support. Messam seems to just have the latter.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:57am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:57am | Report comment
I disagree Messam’s way of playing is bad. Haven’t seen it for long enough. Not that I’ve got anything against Vito at all.
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:07am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:07am | Report comment
I’ve seen plenty. I’ve followed him from 7s to airNZcup and super rugby. Not to mentian his Tests. His gameplay has been fairly consistent in regards to the type of game he plays. As you don’t Know that much about how the guy plays… Why rate him?
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:29am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:29am | Report comment
I do actually and I have seen him play a great deal, and I have also seen that he has not had an extended chance at test level. Who knows, maybe he would fail during that extended chance, but at the moment it’s impossible to judge him.
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:36am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:36am | Report comment
No, it’s not.
He’s never really shown he’s capable of tightening his game up at any level, and I’ve never seen a genuinely class test loose forward who can’t get involved in the tight.
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:40am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:40am | Report comment
If you have seen him then you’d see the way he plays is not productive to the ABs test team. The first time he was dropped he was told to work on his tight play. He has improved slightly, but it didn’t help his cause that Ian Foster played him in a wider role. The ABs don’t need his style of play They need players like Kaino or Read. Role players who do what they’re told from the coachs and are able to do what’s asked. If he is picked for the squad I don’t think it’s the end of the world. I would hope he doesn’t get near any knockout games. Just curious, how many games would you give someone to prove themselves?
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:42am
AdamS said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:42am | Report comment
I’m glad Henry has bought the guns to Brisbane. A lame duck side wouldhave been a major disappointment.
If they are through shooting themselves in the foot, this will be a better chance for the WB to have a good run and get some self belief.
Or not..
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:40am
cinematic said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:40am | Report comment
You can take a top side to Oz because you know they’re not going to send a human canon ball out there to smash a key AB’s knee (or suchlike).
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:08am
RebelRanger said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Why not? Higginbotham done it to Mitchell..
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:19am
AdamS said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:19am | Report comment
It’s not too late to switch TPN from the Baa Baa’s game to Brisbane. Now if he can just figure out a way to catch that rascally Carter….
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:49am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:49am | Report comment
all7 the way he plays could be perfectly conducive to the AB team if they only gave him a chance. Four tests in a row perhaps, maybe on an EOYT against weaker teams.
And I never said he was better than Reid or Kaino or should replace them either.
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:55am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:55am | Report comment
It’s really not – he simply has never shown he’s got the ability to impose himself physically. He plays like a lightweight.
NZ already has ball carrying forwards – it’s the hallmark of the team and has been forever. From 1-8, they generally have a significant edge in open running and ball skills. Messam is very good at this aspect, but that’s not what is required. It’s already taken care of. What is required is a more physical presence to get through the less open matches, and Messam has repeatedly shown he’s incapable (at this stage) of adding that to his game.
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:58am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Noone would say he should replace anyone. I’m talking about how he plays. It isn’t good enough. Look, you obvioulsy rate him for some reason. Good on ya. All I’m looking at is potential to do his job, which would be a bench role. He hasn’t shown in any form of rugby, Tests or otherwise, that he can do that effectively yet. If you think he has, then we’re working off different measurements of evidence
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:03am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Messam is not a battering type of player true, but dynamic and highly mobile loose forwards can be exceptional in teams that play running games.
Of course high skill it’s taken care of in the starting XV with the loose forwards, as I say again I never said Messam should be a starter. In any case it’s probably too late for him for this RWC anyway. I think he should have been developed more thoroughly earlier so they would now have a superb fast loose forward as a reserve. Now though it’s too late.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:07am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Name me one great loose forward in the history of rugby who couldn’t play the tight game.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:13am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:13am | Report comment
You assume I accept he can’t play the tight game. There are different ways of doing so besides being a colossal battering ram.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:16am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:16am | Report comment
If he’s not even been able to play the tight game effectively at ITM Cup or Soup Rugby level, he’s probably not gonna be able to do it in tests.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:18am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Yep it is too late. And it’s all his fault. No one thinks you said he’d be a starter. It would be stupid to say so. A Mobile loose forward who doesn’t do his share of ruck work AND makes silly decisions when playing out wide… Just what the All Blacks need on the bech. Lets give him 4 tests in a row because he deserves it…
I should say I’m not sold on Vito either. His advantage is he brings everything the Messam does, but can graft as well. I think Henry maybe a little disappointed in the payout he got from all 9 chances he’s given Messam. He might be stuck with a 2nd rate player now. 3 chances every year for the last 3 years and not one notable performance.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:23am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:23am | Report comment
I don’t agree he’s not able to play your narrow definition of the ‘tight game’.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:27am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:27am | Report comment
He’s not able to make yards in traffic, doesn’t have a physical presence at the breakdown, can’t impose himself on the attack in defence. That’s the tight game he lacks.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:43am
KiwiDave said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:43am | Report comment
Although Messam’s flaws have been well covered I still think dumping Messam for Vito is a little bit of a surprise. Vito wasn’t spectacular for the canes this year, although his potential is undeniable. It seems like a break from their trend so far of sticking with the more experienced players. They are also fairly similar players, dropping Messam for an openside such as Todd or Braid would make more sense to me.
Really a few less injuries and a bit more form from the likes of D Braid, Waldrom and Latimer would have had us on more solid ground.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:55am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:55am | Report comment
I agree with Todd or Braid. You may find they get chosen over Thomson if Henry bases his decision on the last test. Vito hasn’t proven himself yet. I’m hoping his form turnaround from super to Tests will be as big as the other Canes players.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:30am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:30am | Report comment
I think he can make many yards in traffic through his extraordinary athleticism, is good though at the breakdown and in defence. He’s not a monster, in those last areas but he is perfectly good and makes up for it with his incredible speed and dynamism.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:53am
thurl said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:53am | Report comment
Are there two liam Messams out there? Its just that you seem to be talking up someone that no one else has heard of
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:58am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Well thurl I am amazed that no one hates their own players more than New Zealanders. SBW, Messam, Ranger, Fruean, Cruden, Vito, Maitland: to hear New Zealand ‘fans’ speak you’d think these players were notorious and despised criminals.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:01am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:01am | Report comment
What a load of crap, people simply realise they’re not All Black starters at this stage in their career.
(If you’d said Stephen Donald, you might have been onto something….)
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:13am
Jiggles said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:13am | Report comment
I like Stephen Donald
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:21am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:21am | Report comment
No, no other fans castigate their own players with the venom of New Zealanders. Perhaps that is why so many talented players fail to live up to their potential: they feel rightly that everyone wants them to fail.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:37am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:37am | Report comment
Or maybe test rugby is really f’ing hard and just cause someone is a good athlete doesn’t mean they’ve got the ability to step up?
I live in New Zealand and there’s not much in the way of negative comment on those guys. SBW had a lot of people think he was something of a flash harry and the boxing thing hasn’t exactly been universally loved, but most people admire him for taking a pay cut to play for the AB’s and think he seems like a fairly humble guy in interviews.
None of those other guys have much in the way of negative press at all – we know they’re all talented players with lots of potential (and would all be accepted by the public as squad members), but think they’re not yet up to being a first XV All Black. And guess what?
They’re not.
Cause not one of those guys is better than the incumbents in their position.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:09am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Bar Messam I love all those players you’ve named. They are some of my favourite players to watch. They are not test match players…. YET! I would have Maitland over Guildford though. Just his lines and speed. I’m not clued up enough on his defence to comment on that, but I’ll take the fact that it hasn’t stuck out to me as a frailty yet as a positive.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:04pm
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Well they certainly never will be better under the current never play them for long selection philosophy.
It has to be said Australia succeed far better in developing every ounce of their best talent that New Zealand. There would never be a failure list like Ranger, Messam, Cruden, Vito in Australia.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:33pm
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
I agree that they aren’t consistently selecting players that don’t perform. We are in agreement there
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:26am
thurl said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Obvious troll is obvious troll.
btw, you left your pet hate off the list
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:29am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Wasn’t Maitland the form wing in the earlier part of the competition? And he came straight back into form in the semi-final and while he had a quiet final most of his team did and play didn’t go his way.
thurl you can say what you like but most fans are positive about their players. You don’t hear Wallaby or England or SA fans savaging perfectly good players.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:40am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:40am | Report comment
I read plenty of Aussie fans savaging the likes of Giteau, Horne, AAC, Turner, McAlman, Elsom….
Ditto English fans with the likes of Tindall, Hape, Borthwick, Easter, Haskell…..
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:41am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:41am | Report comment
HAHA yes you do! Giteau, Bothwick, Danny Care, Gregan, AAC,
All have been “Savaged”
August 23rd 2011 @ 1:31pm
Muzza said | August 23rd 2011 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
KPM good too see the passion bro but your love for Messam can’t win this argument. His chances, limited as they always are for a newcomer who is not a special project, but he did not take them. Game over.
August 23rd 2011 @ 10:42am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 10:42am | Report comment
all7 well you can ignore the point that players need a run of games to get used to test rugby, but it still stands.
One-offs and bench cameos are simply not a fair chance for players to develop at the level.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:04am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:04am | Report comment
No, your point is rubbish. If you say he needs 4 Tests in a row and bench cameos aren’t good enough, how would you play him? What, in your eyes, would have been the best way to give Messam enough chances?
4 starts in a row? (since “bench cameos are simply not a fair chance”)
2 starts and 2 bench cameos in a row?
A whole NH tour starting or even on the bench? Despite the competition up there isn’t near the quality needed to blood him properly. Also the fact he didn’t look to good against Scotland or Munster.
What would you do differently from what Henry has done up till now?
I still think it’s funny you hold to the fact it’s Henry who needs to give him chances… It’s the players responsability to take any chances given. But please answer on how you would have used Messam in the past. I’m quite curious. You might change my mind.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:23am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:23am | Report comment
4 starts on the NH tour, quite simple. The teams aren’t the best there, but they’re good enough to bring him up to test level, but not good enough to seriously threaten the ABs if most of the team are non-experiments. Two or three young players should have been given this opportunity.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:37am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:37am | Report comment
Ok I get what you’re saying
You’re saying he should start ahead of Kaino or Read on a NH tour.
Your saying we shouldn’t play our best team against France or England. Teams that have beaten us in the past.
We should do what the NH does when touring downunder because it works out so well for them.
And again with the “bringing him up to test level”?!
Ok, I’m convinced, you have to be a Troll.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:39am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:39am | Report comment
I don’t think changing two or three players siginficantly alters the quality of a team as excellent as the All Blacks. Yes I think England are no threat and I can’t remember the last time they troubled the ABs (when did England last beat them, I can’t remember). France are troublesome for some reason, perhaps the top team could be rolled out against them, but as far as I recall the ABs didn’t play them on last year’s tour.
Remember, we’re not talking about changing more than two or three players in the team. If there are two or three excellent but new players who need a run the ABs are so powerful they can afford to give it to them in an EOYT. The majority of the team will still be first choice.
A great example is Jerome Kaino actually. For the first two or three matches he played in last years Tri.nations matches he made little impact and looked out of place at that level. But by the third and fourth he was hitting his straps and starting to play superbly. Why? He had become comfortable, confident and familiar with the higher level, and that takes a run of games. Poor Messam was never given this extented opportunity.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:43am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Wow you picked the one player who has cosistently performed for the last 3 years. All matches he played well and was one of the best on the park. Not sure where you get your “Facts” from but they must be cheap and in bulk
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:44am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Kaino is a good example actually. But not for the reason you think.
He was introduced early (05) and was decent, albeit against a pretty poor opposition. He played a couple of tests tin 06 then wasn’t selected again until 2008, at which time he had tightened up his game considerably, he performed well and was retained.
Somehow he managed to develop into a good test caliber player by working on his game at Super Rugby level.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:57am
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:57am | Report comment
Also, placing Messam as a starter at 6 or 8 would mean not having 1 of the best players on the park. Why does he derserve a place ahead of them on a tour? He doesn’t. He’s lucky to get the scraps of the table.
The ABs blood the players that derserve it. Up to the players to take it from there. Messam was rubbish against Munster. Why give him Higher honours. Rubbish against Scotland… Rubbish against SA…
On and on he can’t deliver on his end of the “deal”.
But lets give him a whole tour as a starter… Brilliant.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:57am
thurl said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:57am | Report comment
kaino is probably the worst example you could have come up with. By the time the first tri nations test came around last year he had played 29 tests. Its like saying Dan Carter looked out of place in the first couple of matches this year, but by the time the third match (Australia)he had become comfortable, confident and familiar with the higher level.
What a crock
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:21am
KiwiDave said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:21am | Report comment
This is the All Blacks, not the Te Atatu under 12s, you don’t get an extended run of games unless you have proven yourself. It just doesn’t happen. If you don’t front then there are plenty of other players to take your place. In Messam’s case Vito and possibly Todd, Braid
Look at Kaino, he had his chance, got dropped and worked his butt off until he got another chance and he made it stick. The reason these players keep getting picked is because they keep performing.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:44am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:44am | Report comment
I watched it and he’s only really come into his own recently. Look at the benefits: in my opinion he’s almost the key forward and his bullocking runs provide much of the go-forward for the team.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:50am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:50am | Report comment
Kaino has been immense the last few years, you’ve not being attention if you think he’s only recently come into his own.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:01pm
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
He’s been ok, but not what he is now.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:13pm
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
KPM. Watch the last test in capetown and say he wasn’t as good as now.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:47am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Jerry and exactly how many players have the ABs lost as the coaches fail to take on the responsibility to develop them themselves, when the provincial coaches aren’t doing it?
Henry has failed with Messam, Ranger, Vito, Cruden. These are not all chokers: they are highly talented players who it should have been possible to turn into excellent test players.
If one had failed, he could be blamed, but all four?
And yes you’ve guessed what they have in common: youth/inexperience. Spiro Zavos hit the nail on the head when he observed Henry has little gift for developing young players.
Messam, Ranger, Vito, Cruden, that’s four big failures on Henry’s log.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:52am
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Owen Franks, Israel Dagg, Sam Whitelock, Kieran Read. That’s four big successes.
Henry’s developed dozens of players.
Henry will just have to console himself with the fact that the AB’s were the best side in the world for most of his tenure and that he’s got a better winning percentage than every other All Black coach bar Fred Allen.
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:59am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Frankly Jerry, the ABs have so many more good players than any other team in the world it would take a coach with a lobotomy to make them lose. What’s more, recently they have faced almost no competition worth the name.
I don’t think the examples of successes you give justify the failures: those four highly talented failures are a big black mark on Henry. Four big talents is a lot.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:15pm
Colin N said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
“I don’t think the examples of successes you give justify the failures”
What failures? If Ranger, Gear, Messam, Vito and to some extent SBW actually played consistently well when given their opportunity and Henry didn’t pick them, then your argument would have some credibility.
I remember when Messam made his test debut against France in 2009 and he was very poor.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:19pm
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Firstly, I wouldn’t say any of those guys are failures. They’re just not ready yet. And they were never gonna be better than the incumbents in time for the WC so it hardly matters.
That’s not a black mark against Henry in my view – developing world class backups is pretty bloody rare. Other than Bismark, I can’t really think of any examples of a backup who’s become truly world class (and he only did it cause Smit wanted to try and be a prop for a while). Henry might have been able to do it if he’d employed a rotation policy, but that wouldn’t have sat well with the NZ public (rotation is a dirty word after the 07 WC exit) and we simply didn’t have the depth to do it without dropping tests which isn’t acceptable to an AB supporter.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:05pm
thurl said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Why do you say they’ve failed?…Because they haven’t been instant hits??
LOL, you have to be an Australian journalist. they’re the only peopleI know who think their players are the best in the world after 3 or 4 tests
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:17pm
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
They should all or all but perhaps one be outstanding established test players by now. That they are not is Graham Henry’s failure.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:42pm
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Cruden was never gonna be better than Carter (never will either), Messam and Vito were never gonna be better than Kaino or Read and Ranger could have played every test since the start of the 2010 season and he’d still be a ball hog who goes missing on defence.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:59pm
Mungehead said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Too true Jerry
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:18pm
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
He seems to have gone up several gears and is also present everywhere.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:00pm
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
yes, and that’s why they never put their very very best team out and against the opposition playing their absolute maximum best in world cups they are knocked out again and again and again.
The system has not worked.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:31pm
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
So they don’t put out the best team… but the fringe players don’t get enough opportunities…
So who’s playing in these tests?!
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:20pm
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
He deserves a place in order to develop as a player that’s why! They have done so already, and so the ABs need to see who is the best and they can only do that by giving their players RUNS, not rotations.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:34pm
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
How can he develop if you keep demanding the play the best team?!
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:36am
thurl said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Same Sh#t, different day KPM. Its you against the world again….
August 23rd 2011 @ 11:56am
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Who said I’m Australian?
But none of these players is exactly ‘savaged’. They are criticised fairly.
The only case of savaging is Giteau who I admit everyone seems to hate.
But New Zealand fans hate anyone the coaches don’t like. It’s loyalty to the cause taken a little too far.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:00pm
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
My opinions of Rugby players at Test level are purley based on results and performance… Not “Talent” or expectaions. To do the latter would be unfair and would be taking Fandom too far
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:01pm
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
How about you find one example of anyone ‘savaging’ Maitland or Fruean. Those are completely bizarre names to mention in that context – I can’t remember anyone having a bad word to say about either of them except for Freuan messing up some try scoring opportunities for the Crusaders.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:16pm
kingplaymaker said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Fruean can play an outstanding game of rugby with no flaws in attack or defence and doesn’t get an inch of praise.
No one has given a good reason why Maitland wasn’t playing for the ABs this year.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:25pm
Jerry said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
That’s not the point – you made the claim they were savaged. That’s different than ‘not being praised’. Show me an example.
By the way, both of them received a fair bit of praise and were spoken of as potential AB’s, especially Fruean (before he faded badly in the second half of the season, got the dropsies and started ignoring his support). Maitland is simply a young player in a position where we have substantial depth and there wasn’t sufficient time to see if he was up to it.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:35pm
all7days said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Both have been and continualy reffered to as future ABs
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:10pm
Colin N said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
To me, All Black fans don’t seem to ‘hate’ these players as such, but merely understand their limitations, which is an attitude I wish England fans would take with some of our players.
August 23rd 2011 @ 1:41pm
thurl said | August 23rd 2011 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Carter, Nonu, Kaino, Read, Weepu, Oliver, hayman, Thorn, Hore, to name but a few all developed with one offs and bench cameos.
August 23rd 2011 @ 12:12pm
kiwiDave said | August 23rd 2011 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Well there it is Vito is in Messam is out.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:47am
cinematic said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:47am | Report comment
The speculation in media circles is amusing. Most sites are running multiple articles, most of which are a direct contradiction of the other.
August 23rd 2011 @ 8:53am
KiwiDave said | August 23rd 2011 @ 8:53am | Report comment
That way when the team is announced they can all point out how they called first, whatever the result is. Covering your bases…
August 23rd 2011 @ 9:00am
cinematic said | August 23rd 2011 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Heh