Greatest rugby side of the professional era
By wre01, 1 Feb 2012 wre01 is a Roar Rookie
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- 2011 Rugby World Cup, Mike Phillips, Mils Muliaina, Piri Weepu, Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup, Victor Matfield
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Now the dust has settled following the 2011 Rugby World Cup, I see no better time to reignite the perennial ‘greatest side of the professional era’ debate.
There were some splendid performances at the 2011 Rugby World Cupn> from the entire spectrum of players. Veterans showed that class is timeless.
Even in losing, Victor Matfield in particular was magnificent. Mils Muliaina made way gracefully for a new generation but not before contributing tangibly.
Mike Phillips put forward a case for the second best performed scrum half at the Rugby World Cup only behind perhaps another ‘old man’ Piri Weepu. Youngsters (O’Connor, Pocock, Warburton, Tuilangi and North spring to mind) promised much for the 2013 Lions Tour and the 2015 tournament beyond.
Many argue that without a Rugby World Cup, the phenomenons of messers McCaw and Carter were lesser. It’s a moot point now but I’ve never been a subscriber to that view.
Players like Philippe Sella never trimuped on rugby’s ultimate stage but my goodness he was special. So special it was said he had “the stength of a bull and the touch of a piano player”.
Brian O’Driscoll will not be a ‘world champion’ but that just reinforces that rugby is a team game, personal talent is often not enough, no matter the greatness of the individual involved.
Besides, I’m sure BOD is aptly comforted by his new bride Amy Hubermann. There is life after rugby, after all.
That said, the 22 below includes many Rugby World Cup winners. The great Wallaby sides of 1999-2003 and Bok teams of 2007-2009 feature heavily as they should. Martin Johnson could not be left out.
He, along with Lawrence Dallaglio, personified the total commitment, guts and determination of the class of 2003 (traits arguably missing from England’s 2011 squad). At their peak, Eales, Horan and Smit were second to none. Eales and Horan went out on highs and perhaps John Smit didn’t.
However, that doesn’t change the selection. Like Kirk, Johnson and other illustrious captains courageous, Smit will be a legend of the game long after the Sith Efrikan brooding (read blame game) in the wake of the ‘Boks’ 2011 failure ends. Which brings me to the criteria:
(a) ‘The Professional Era’ is not an easily defined period. Exactly when players started getting paid and whether the sport was ‘semi-professional’ for a time between are arguments that only spoil the fun. Some say the sport made the leap in 1987, at the first World Cup.
For mine, the sport became truly professional in 1994/1995 when firstly the IRB removed all restrictions on player payments , secondly SANZAR was formed leading to the Super Rugby concept and thirdly the European (Heineken) Cup began.
On that basis, in an attempt to keep everyone happy, I’ve used the ‘early 1990s’ as the approximate starting date. Sella just scrapes into that time frame (having played internationally up until 1995. Another French great wing/3/4, Serge Blanco, falls outside it.
(b) This is not a wind up intended to provoke the Northern Hemisphere. The fact that there are more Southern Hemisphere players in the 22 is solely down to the fact that, in my view, they were better players. Please feel free to disagree.
And a special note to the Welsh, I did notice there are no Welsh players in the 22 and no, that isn’t a mistake, Shane Williams was not good enough to unseat Lomu, Campese or to force a choice between BOD and Sella.
If the 1970s were taken into account that may well have changed (Barry John, JPR Williams and Gareth Edwards spring to mind).
(c) This is not about players with the most Test caps. If it was I would have included George Gregan and Justin Leonard. Longevity is an important factor to consider, no more and no less.
(d) Finally, all players chosen were chosen on the basis of how good they were at their best. I’m not talking about single performances, anyone can be man of the match on a given day. I am talking about reasonably prolonged periods of time where players became legends.
For example, Mr Smit. Rubbish in 2011. Legendary between 2007 and 2009. At his best, I argue he was better than Fitzpatrick, Kearns, Wood, Thomson and Du Plessis at their respective bests.
Again, feel free to disagree!
1. Os Du Raandt
2. John Smit
3. Patricio Noriega
4. John Eales (c)
5. Martin Johnson
6. Schalk Burger
7. Richie McCaw
8. Zinzan Brooke
9. Joost Vanderwesthuizen
10. Daniel Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Tim Horan
13. Brian O’Driscoll (vc)
14. Philippe Sella
15. Christian Cullen
16. Sean Fitzpatrick
17. Ewen MacKenzie
18. Victor Matfield
19. Lawrence Dallaglio
20. Justin Marshall
21. Jonny Wilkinson
22. David Campese
Honourable mentions: Fabien Pelous, Olivier Magne, George Smith, Sergio Parisse, Imanol Harinordoquay, George Gregan, Steven Larkham, Tana Umaga.
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February 1st 2012 @ 8:20am
Sam Brown said | February 1st 2012 @ 8:20am | Report comment
it is hard to argue against such giants of the game but I’d like to throw the names Francois Pieenar and Thierry Dusautoir as options at number 6 and off the bench. Totai Kefu also rates a mention at number 8. Overall though a very well rounded team that doesn’t seem to be too favouring to one nationality or another.
February 1st 2012 @ 8:41am
Das Boat said | February 1st 2012 @ 8:41am | Report comment
I agree with your entire backline apart from Sella. Not because he wasnt great, he clearly is a legend of the game, but rather I do not feel he fits in to the modern era in any way. Even with your disclaimer. So Campo, with JK, J Roff, J Wilson, B Tune all nipping at his heels.
It is such a shame that you cant fit Matfeild, Johnson and Eales in. Three absolute giants of the game.
i would also prefer any number of reserve halfbacks to Marshall, but that is personal preference.
A nicely balance side though, and these exercises are always fun
February 1st 2012 @ 8:53am
Johnno said | February 1st 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
No
No:
Olo Brown
Thierry Dusautoir
Simon Shaw
Bennaze
F Du Preez
Isreal Dagg
Kieran Read
Carl Hayman
John Hayes
February 1st 2012 @ 11:43am
Max said | February 1st 2012 @ 11:43am | Report comment
haha Dagg you crack me up Johnno and Hayes ahahahaha.
February 1st 2012 @ 9:06am
The Grafter said | February 1st 2012 @ 9:06am | Report comment
The backline looks good apart from Sella on the wing. Wilson, Williams,Campese, or even Roff get the nod at wing, but understand you wanting him in the 15.
Carl Hayman has been the best prop in the world for the past 8-9 years, so has to be in there. Makes for a hell of a front row with the Ox and Smit.
I wouldnt have Brooke at No8, Dallagio gets in with Kefu on the bench.
February 1st 2012 @ 9:18am
Richo said | February 1st 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Ewan Mckenzie please you must be just on a wind up there.
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February 1st 2012 @ 9:19am
sheek said | February 1st 2012 @ 9:19am | Report comment
It’s fascinating how there can be so many differing viewpoints.
1. Smit was very good, but for heaven’s sake, even by your own criteria, Fitzpatrick wins over Smit.
2. Noriega? If Pato was the best prop of the professional era, I’ll eat my hat. Olo Brown anyone? It’s one thing to think differently, but you still have to stick to the facts.
3. I’ll give you Burger for the moment, although there’s plenty of great competition here. I’m sure there’s someone better! BTW, did you know the Saffies play their openside in 6 jersey, & blindside in 7 jersey? Just to be different – & confuse the rest of us.
4. You’ve put Sella on the wing. Okay, he started as a winger, but is known as a great 13. Obviously, you couldn’t decide, so you shifted one to the wing. Despite all the other great wingers around. I reckon Campo has to be the right winger.
Also, there’s this continuous argument about whether Campo was a right or left winger. This is how the confusion came about. Campo made his test debut in 1982 on the left-wing (#11) in place of another great winger – Brendan Moon – who was unable to tour NZ.
When Moon returned 1983-86, he played on the left wing (#11) & Campo switched to the right wing (#14). After Moon had retired, & Bob Dwyer again became national coach in 1988, Campo, who was now a senior player, asked for the #11 jersey permanently, irrespective of which wing he played. Since #11 was his first test jersey, that’s what he wanted, & that’s what he was granted.
For most of his career, Camp played right wing in the #11 jersey, although he also occasionally played the left-wing & at fullback. Adding to the confusion was the fact Dwyer gave Campo a roving commission, so in attack he was likely to bob up on either wing, or even at flyhalf!
I trust this helps clear things up!
Anyway, all fine players, but I would certainly disagree vigorously on some selections.
February 1st 2012 @ 9:22am
Markus said | February 1st 2012 @ 9:22am | Report comment
This is a tough one, as I’ve always considered the professional era to have started about 1995 as well, after South Africa had come back into international competition and just as Murdoch/Fox got the rights to the Super Rugby.
On that basis, I just don’t think Phillippe Sella would fall into the category of professional era player, and Zinzan Brooke and Sean Fitzpatrick are a stretch.
However that does allow Dallaglio and Campese to move into the starting team, George Smith or Harinordoquay to the bench, as well as open up a hooker like Keith Wood and a more professional era winger like Shane Williams or Joe Roff for consideration.
February 1st 2012 @ 9:30am
Markus said | February 1st 2012 @ 9:30am | Report comment
I also couldn’t really consider any Australian prop in a world greatest side.
McKenzie was a standout for Australia, but is completely overshadowed by a lot of other world class props.
As for Noriega, he was a very proficient scrummager, but was hardly even a legend by Australian standards let alone world standards.
Hayman would be in my mix, and as much as I hate to admit it, Phil Vickery or Jason Leonard.
February 1st 2012 @ 10:20am
Markus said | February 1st 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Actually, I’d go Andrew Sheridan over Leonard too. And shall also stop replying to myself.
February 1st 2012 @ 9:26am
sheek said | February 1st 2012 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Actually, having gone to all that explanation about Campo, 1996 was his last year of test rugby, & the first year of professional rugby.
So in actual fact, Campo played too little professional rugby to be considered for the time frame given. Perhaps Sella also.
Perhaps a few others as well. Do you consider guys like Brooke & Fitzpatrick on only 2-3 years (1996-98) of professional rugby?
Perhaps this post was too hastily constructed. Don’t worry – we’re all guilty of that at one time or another!
February 1st 2012 @ 10:24am
Kiwidave said | February 1st 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
I think Brooke actually kept playing for quite some time in england, wikipedia alleges until 2003 although he must have been pretty past his prime. Out of sight out of mind for us but perhaps a watcher of the English scene can confirm.
February 1st 2012 @ 10:43am
sheek said | February 1st 2012 @ 10:43am | Report comment
True,
But I’m presuming test rugby is the ultimate stage, & his last test for the ABs was in 1997, only the second year of pro rugby.
February 2nd 2012 @ 12:08am
trakl said | February 2nd 2012 @ 12:08am | Report comment
Was 1996 the first year of professional rugby union for Campo?
No payment in cash or kind while playing in Italy?
February 1st 2012 @ 10:14am
mania said | February 1st 2012 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Only changes I’d make are…
2. Fitzy – no competition here. Fitzy was smarter and handled captaincy better than smit
5. Matfield – MartinJohnson was a great captain but Matfield was better at set pieces
9. Gregan – Joost was a better physical specimen but Gregan not only was smarter but craftier.
11. anyone but Jonah – Jonah only shone early in his career and @ WC’s. The latter half of his career was boring.
17. Olo Brown – better scrummager by far
19. George Smith – Dallagio only looked good with his winning WC squad. Befrore and after their winning WC he was average. George smith to cover 6,7 and 8
21. Steven Larkham – Wilko is a better kicker but larkham was better all round. already have a good goal kicker in carter in this team, larkham comes on as impact to take the oppoistion by surprise + he was a decent goal kicker as well. I would definately have wilko in the player squad tho
February 1st 2012 @ 12:49pm
Chris said | February 1st 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Yeah, I was wondering about Wilkinson. Remember there’s Eales as a backup kicker for Carter, so the kicking thing is even less of an issue to me. Agree that once you take goal kicking out of it Larkham was the better option.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:35am
Ben S said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:35am | Report comment
5. Matfield and Johnson are totally different locks. Johnson was a 4.
19. 1997 Lions tour anybody?
February 1st 2012 @ 11:26am
Sam Taulelei said | February 1st 2012 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Using 1995 as the cutoff mark for when the game officially went professional with the formation of SANZAR and the sale of broadcast rights to News Corp will unfortunately rule out many of the game’s legends as they were in the twilight of their careers eg. Sean Fitzpatrick, Zinzan Brooke and Phillippe Sella.
Tim Horan retired after the 1999 world cup but it would be difficult to compare his form since 1995 to players like Will Greenwood, Daniel Herbert, Jamie Roberts and Jean de Villiers who played all their test rugby in the professional era.
My list would be
1. Os du Randt
2. Raphael Ibanez
3. Carl Hayman
4. Victor Matfield
5. John Eales
6. Richard Hill
7. Richie McCaw
8. Toutai Kefu
9. Joost van der Westhuizen
10. Daniel Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Tana Umaga
13. Brian O’Driscoll
14. Bryan Habana
15. Christian Cullen
February 1st 2012 @ 11:58am
Sam Brown said | February 1st 2012 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Amen to Ibanez
February 1st 2012 @ 12:41pm
rl said | February 1st 2012 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Pretty fair post-1995 response Sam. My thoughts:
- maybe Andy Sheridan in ahead of the Ox? (Phil Vickery also in with a shout somewhere)
- Hill probably gets the nod ahead Jerry Collins? (I would have loved to have thrown Willie O in the mix, but suspect he falls into the same boat as Horan?)
- it’s a split hair between Kefu & Dallaglio
- no major arguments with your backline, although I’d have Chris Latham at fullback (but that’s my extreme personal bias showing – even I have to reluctantly admit Cullen is probably a safer bet)
Boy, isn’t this dicussion going to change in 4 years once players like Warburton, Pockock, Roberts etc have a few more years under their belts!
February 2nd 2012 @ 12:04am
trakl said | February 2nd 2012 @ 12:04am | Report comment
Jason Robinson was more brilliant a player than Habana – the former was far less reliant on others making space for him than Habana – even though the latter always has possessed greater straight-line speed.
Robinson’s acceleration,change of pace and bewildering – unorthodox – footwork excited me like few others.
Never forget, please, his first touch of the ball in the first Lions Test of 2001 and directly up against a Chris Latham who some Australian commentators were convinced was the world’s greatest full back. Latham – in his attempt to tackle Robinson – looked like a statue falling slowly to the ground.
I remember too that Robinson scored 5 tries on his Lions debut and that one of the tries resulted from a left-foot sidestep that took him extravagantly further left – and not right as one would presume – of a confounded defender. Stuart Barnes, in commentary, referred to it as a “corkscrew” movement similar to what one would see of gymnasts doing floor exercises.
Oh, and he was in his prime in rugby league…
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:38am
Ben S said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:38am | Report comment
Kefu was very good in 99, Sam, but as rugby players IMO there was a huge gulf. Dallaglio could switch between 6 and 8 (even playing 7 at Test level) and was very good in the air. He also had deft hands for a big man, and his Test career was far lengthier in terms of excellence than Kefu’s was. He was awesome on the 1997 Lions tour, and was still going in 2003. People just remember him as the man who carried a few Welsh defenders over the try line, but he had much more to his game than that.