ROBBIE DEANS interview (pt.1): Wallabies need an attacking mindset
By Brett McKay, 14 Aug 2012 Brett McKay is a Roar Expert
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In the first of a two-part exclusive video interview with Wallabies Head Coach, Robbie Deans, Brett McKay goes to the heart of Wallabies’ planning for the upcoming Bledisloe Cup and Rugby Championship series.
“We won’t defend the title,” Robbie Deans responds to my question of the confidence within the squad of defending the Wallabies’ southern hemisphere trophy, in this season’s inaugural Rugby Championship.
“You don’t win the Rugby Championship without an attacking mindset. You just don’t succeed against the All Blacks and the Springboks without bringing something to the game.
“We did that last year, and obviously, it was satisfying to pick up the Tri-Nations. It’s something that hadn’t been done for a decade, which is indicative of the challenge. It’s the toughest comp in the world.”
And it’s a pretty sound plan. Logical, but sound. He’s right, too; you can’t expect success in a notably difficult international tournament by simply defending your own line. At some point, you have to score points yourself.
The Wallabies had an excellent lead-in to the Rugby Championship with the series against Wales, and I was interested to hear his thoughts on the parallels between what the Wallabies faced in June and to what is on its way from the southern hemisphere super powers.
“It’s the quality of the Welsh side, first and foremost,” Deans offers. “They’re Grand Slam winners, went through the Six Nations unbeaten and they’re a side that’s probably as close as any to the southern hemisphere. They play 80 minutes, they use width, they’ve got capability across the park, and they’re also strong at set piece. So it was the ideal background for us, we believe, going into playing against what are traditionally the best two teams in the world.”
And that’s probably fair enough. Certainly the Wallabies should have taken some major lessons away from the Welsh series, particularly in the crucial set piece area where you just know that New Zealand, South Africa, and even Argentina will be targeting Australia.
The tight five, but particularly lock still looks to be an area of concern with regular Wallabies captain, James Horwill, out for the season, and the evergreen Nathan Sharpe delaying his retirement with the blessing of his sons. What remains behind these two is something of an undoubtedly talented, but ultimately raw bunch. Deans seems to share the same concerns:
“We’ll work with what we’ve got. Sitaleki [Timani] played well in the Third Test as well. Simmo’s [Rob Simmons] a young man who’s learning the role, learning to become a senior player. We’ll make the most of that [younger] group, and they’ll have to be ‘full noise’ and well prepared to get the job done. But it can be done.”
Reasonable arguments could be mounted to inject the likes of Kane Douglas and Rebels pair Hugh Pyle and Caderyn Neville sooner rather than later. However, you get the sense that blooding potential locks of the future will have to wait, as Deans pumps up the learning curve on Timani and Simmons and milks the last drops of rugby from Sharpe during this series.
Overall, Wallaby squad depth is certainly better than it was not all that long ago. Deans rightly points out that in the lead-up to the Wales series, “We lost something like four or five top shelf five-eighths, and yet we were still able to get through the series, whereas you go back a couple of years and that simply wouldn’t have been the case; we couldn’t have done that.”
“You look at some of our positions of need,” Deans continues, “we’ve lacked a bit of depth at openside, but we’ve now got a couple of opensiders coming on.”
“We’re not without challenge. Nine [scrumhalf], we don’t have a huge amount of depth; the locking stocks probably aren’t that flash. But aside from that, I think we’re making headway.”
This, of course, places even more importance on that core group of players in their mid-to-late twenties. Alexander, Moore, Ashley-Cooper, Barnes, Mitchell, Polota-Nau, Robinson, Genia, Ioane, Pocock. All aged between 24 and 29, these guys have all played somewhere between 25 and 70 Tests each. Even McCabe and Higginbotham, the same age, but with fewer Tests to their name should be included here too.
“The senior group made good strides in June, and that’s what we’ve been working hard at, and waiting on, in many ways, that maturity kicking in and turning that experience into hunger, and not being prepared to accept anything but the best. Because that’s what it’s going to take to take the next step.”
And he’s right, these guys are who Deans can develop his squad around for the future; these are the guys that need to start delivering Test Match consistency as a group. These are the guys who need to deliver a Bledisloe.
With this evident development around his senior group, you get the feeling of a slight change of tack in the way Deans is forming his Wallabies side this year.
Where once you felt the Wallabies tried to build a team and game plan around the likes of Quade Cooper, James O’Connor, and Kurtley Beale, Deans speaks in the build-up to the Rugby Championship of “substance”, and the need to work through games, rather than on the undeniable gifts of these young playmakers.
Those sweating on a 2012 Wallaby game plan built purely on the so-called ‘X-factor’ players are set to be disappointed:
“We will need some ‘X-factor’, but we’ll need a lot more of the substance the group showed in June than the ‘X-factor’, because that’s the ingredient we’ve been deficient of.
“We’ve had ample ‘X-factor’. It doesn’t cut it against the All Blacks in particular, in the first instance,” Deans reasons.
And it’s this notion of substance over ‘X-factor’ that ultimately switches to discussion and/or debate over Australia’s centre pairings over the last 12 months or so.
While Berrick Barnes was superb against Wales steering the Wallaby ship around the park, the reviews of Pat McCabe and especially Rob Horne in the centres were rather mixed. The interesting revelation here from Deans is that it would seem we’re likely to see more of the McCabe/Horne-type combinations than less.
“People look at individuals and draw conclusions about the team, which is nonsense; it’s a team game. It’s about how you apply all your people. There was a lot of discussion around Pat McCabe last year; well, our attack in the Tri-Nations was the best it’d been in ten years, and it was superior to the All Black and Springboks and hence we won the title,” Deans says.
“And Patty was a big part of that. He’s a young man learning the ropes as well, just as we as a team are learning to combine effectively. We’ve made good progress in our attack … our line breaks essentially doubled with each outing*. So we’ll just keep pushing on with that.
“To have a combination is great, you know, we haven’t had a combination for a long time because of injuries. That’s the first time that I can recall that we’ve gone through a series with the same midfield pairing, so that’s definitely advantageous. And when you talk to those blokes, they’ve come to understand each other and in particular come to understand the team game.
“Ample attack. Because they’re blokes who ask of the opposition.
“Some of the viewing public prefer the visible ‘X-factor’ stuff,” Deans says, even adding the ‘air quotes’, “but it’s a team game and that doesn’t cut it against teams of substance.”
“But we’ll try and blend the two. Last year we modified the way we played the game, in order to bring the ‘X-factor’ players into it; they might not have been involved in the start of play, but they were certainly involved in the secondary play. So it was about fitting the skill set of our playing group to what was required.”
I’ve long held the theory that if want to play the likes of Cooper, O’Connor, and Beale in the same backline, you nearly need a couple of ‘straight men’ like McCabe and Horne, Mike Harris, Anthony Fainga’a, or even Adam Ashley-Cooper in the centres to maintain the pursuit of forward direction.
News in recent weeks that McCabe will miss the first two Bledisloe Tests (with a lower leg stress fracture), and that Horne initially and Fainga’a latterly the suggested replacement at 12 maintains that stance. And it seems my theory has a strong ally:
“If you recall the fixture at Eden Park [the first Bledisloe Test of 2011; Cooper played 10, O’Connor on the wing, Beale at the back], we didn’t stick to the script and we played very laterally, we kept going to the edges, and we disrespected our opponent,” Deans explains.
“So that ‘play, play, play’ mentality and approach doesn’t cut it. So you’ve got to have blokes who ask of the defence, you’ve got to engage them and you’ve got to ask enough of them to sap them in order to profit. We adapted our game, we learnt from that outing, and we were more effective in Brisbane when we picked up the Tri-Nations against an All Black side that was lying in wait [after the Wallabies had returned from South Africa].”
“Clearly … our next outing against the All Blacks [the RWC Semi-Final], we obviously came up short. We weren’t as effective, and the reasons were pretty obvious; we didn’t engage once again, we went away from the script, and kept giving them the very ball they like to play with.”
In the time since the interview, I’ve kept thinking that Deans might be looking to use the likes of Cooper, Beale, and O’Connor (once fit again) differently in 2012. I can’t help but wonder if Cooper’s return from a knee reconstruction might provide the avenue for him to be used from the bench as an impact player for the last half an hour of games. Certainly, Barnes has done his chance of holding the no.10 jersey no harm through the Wales series.
He could still utilise O’Connor and Beale from the back to great effect. But I just wonder if we mightn’t be seeing a more measured method of attack for the Wallabies this year.
We’ll find out soon enough.
The Wallabies name their side for the first Bledisloe Cup Test at 11am today.
* Footnote: It’s entirely possible the Wallabies have a different definition of a “line break” to what we might know it to be. Ruckin’ Good Stats had the Wallabies’ 2011 Tri-Nations line breaks numbered at 11, 8, 5, and 7 across the four matches. ESPN Scrum had slightly different numbers, but telling the same story.
Brett McKay is a former non-tackling scrumhalf and not-quite-1st Grade middle order stalwart. A rugby and cricket expert for The Roar since July 2009 (having joined in Sept 2008), Brett has written for Inside Rugby and Cricket Australia, and is also PLAY Canberra's rugby correspondent. He tweets from @BMcSport
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August 14th 2012 @ 6:56am
Damo said | August 14th 2012 @ 6:56am | Report comment
Great interview Brett.
”Substance’ is the catch phrase.
Well that at least seems a better word than the title of a flaky channel 9 talent show.
August 14th 2012 @ 8:47am
Brett McKay said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
Cheers Damo, I thought that was an interesting angle he was pushing, too, the whole ‘substance’ thing..
August 14th 2012 @ 10:47am
Bono said | August 14th 2012 @ 10:47am | Report comment
He’s talking out of his arse. Long may it continue from an AB fan’s perspective.X factor not as important as substance? Dude, at the top level, you need both and guys like Carter,Nonu, Richie, Pocock, Genia and co have both qualities in spades.
August 14th 2012 @ 8:59pm
p.Tah said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
Brett how was the Opera House on your left given the direction Robbie was facing you with the Bridge behind him
August 14th 2012 @ 7:08am
nickoldschool said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:08am | Report comment
Let’s see if one can win the RC with an average tight five.
August 14th 2012 @ 7:21am
Justin2 said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:21am | Report comment
And an average 10 and game plan
August 14th 2012 @ 7:46am
nickoldschool said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:46am | Report comment
yes, agree Justin. It seems many think Barnes had a great series v Wales and i just didnt see it like that too. He did much better than with the Tahs but wasn’t outstanding either. A n10 needs more than be just ‘ok’ to be influential in his team’s performance. he doesnt have the x-factor anymore (provided he had it earlier in his career). When i saw Benji Marshall’s blind- pass this w-e i felt yep, that’s something Cooper might do too but BB wouldn’t try even if his team was winning 40-10 with 10min to go.
Yet, i still think our tight five is by far our weakest link. Great series ahead anyway, cant wait!
August 14th 2012 @ 8:07am
formeropenside said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:07am | Report comment
Wow, amazed to find out that Deans thought Timani had a good game in the 3rd Test. Video analysis on GAGR certainly did not show that.
August 14th 2012 @ 8:15am
kingplaymaker said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:15am | Report comment
I’m sure GAGR is pure and undoubted scientific truth and proves beyond any conceivable questioning whatever it wishes.
I watched Timani very closely and he had a good game in my opinion, whatever GAGR thinks.
August 14th 2012 @ 8:31am
formeropenside said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
Dude, you have so much man-love for Timani, cries of bias dont really cut it.
Having said that, I cant say your *opinion* is wrong, I can merely say I disagree, and that I did not see that many great things that you did.
August 14th 2012 @ 8:37am
Blue Blood said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
GAGR is http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com
August 14th 2012 @ 9:36am
A Bedeian said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Timani goes missing in action in a Gold jumper
August 14th 2012 @ 12:05pm
Adam-15 said | August 14th 2012 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
sometimes, KPM, it’s okay to look at the facts.
August 14th 2012 @ 7:22am
Post said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:22am | Report comment
“That’s the first time that I can recall that we’ve gone through a series with the same midfield pairing, so that’s definitely advantageous. And when you talk to those blokes, they’ve come to understand each other and in particular come to understand the team game”
I found this slightly ironic since Deans is using it to praise a centre who is the biggest ball hogging non-passer I’ve ever seen wear a Wallabies jersey.
August 14th 2012 @ 7:28am
Justin2 said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:28am | Report comment
Considering PM is out I don’t know why he was even bothering to bring it up and the reason for our lack of partnerships is Deans dismal selections.
August 14th 2012 @ 8:46am
Blue Blood said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Hear, hear. Deans has his favourites and to date has rarely shifted from then. The partnership of Pocock and Hodgson has been one of the strongest tag team partnerships in Super rugby and not once did Deans try it at a test. Pocock looks amazing at super with workhorse Hodgson matching him. The other 6s to date have not shown a pairing anywhere near this effective at test level. I’m sure there are many other super partnerships outside of the Reds and Tahs that should be explored.
And Deans:
“we’ve lacked a bit of depth at openside, but we’ve now got a couple of opensiders coming on.”
No mate you’ve had talent there but you have refused to give Hodgson the game time to become a international regular. A wasted international career sits at your feet sir. Player of the day twice in Wallaby cours but your blind faith in Pocock meant he never got the caps he deserved. Great that you have finally worked out that Pocock is human and does get injured. Good for the new guys. Too late I suspect for Hodgson. (Although his form this year was again outstanding and consistent.)
August 14th 2012 @ 9:00am
Brett McKay said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
J2, to clarify, this was shot just prior to McCabe being ruled out. I thought the point on combinations and needing to challenge the defence was valid even with McCabe now out..
August 14th 2012 @ 9:15am
Justin2 said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
OK, thanks Brett.
My point still stands that after 5yrs Deans has finally settled and I do mean “settled” on a centre pairing. A centre pairing that if not lacking skill is lacking in instruction on how to play a game that can challenege the defence both in contact and ball movement.
August 14th 2012 @ 7:30am
katzilla said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:30am | Report comment
Deans actually sounded really good when I gave him a more reactive affect in my head whilst reading that.
August 14th 2012 @ 7:34am
moaman said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:34am | Report comment
Couple of things leapt out at me; Maybe because I had just read an article about a players’ meeting the ABs just held wherein younger players were reminded of their responsibilities;( http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10826707 ) but–
Brett’s interview with Deans told me that Robbie thinks they are on track except for those times the players themselves deviate from the script and,er…play what’s in front of them.
You can talk up Wales and their performance in the recent series as much as you like–and it was news to me that they are an “80 minute side” because I thought that was an area Gatland had tried,in vain,to improve,but from my point of view I thought the 3 games were pretty average in both skill and intensity. Reference to that and the comment that the Wallaby attack was “superior” to the ABs/Boks just seems like a massive accentuation of the positives.
August 14th 2012 @ 7:37am
Justin2 said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:37am | Report comment
But they doubled their line breaks each game Moa!
August 14th 2012 @ 1:52pm
moaman said | August 14th 2012 @ 1:52pm | Report comment
0-1-2???
August 14th 2012 @ 7:46am
Thurl said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:46am | Report comment
Brett’s interview with Deans told me that Robbie thinks they are on track except for those times the players themselves deviate from the script and,er…play what’s in front of them.
I thought Dean’s said the problem was that they tried to go around what was in front of them….
August 14th 2012 @ 7:50am
rabbitfan said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:50am | Report comment
Play attacking rugby with Barnes, Horne, McCabe? Good luck Robbie.
August 14th 2012 @ 7:51am
Johnno said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Brett should get JON for an itnerview. Put hat man on the coal face for all the stuff ups he has caused to grass roots rugby, and rejection of west sydney,adleaide, and the gold coast, and newcastle, . Get JON on Brett.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:01am
Brett McKay said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
I’ll jot that down on the wish list, Johnno…
August 14th 2012 @ 9:22am
Johnno said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Brett that would be a great interview if you could get the scoop and interview JON, . If the roar made that interview paid per view i would pay $50 up front no question.
August 14th 2012 @ 10:25am
Harry said | August 14th 2012 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Second that Brett – I see JON’s got his favourite journo, the other Brett, sprouting on about the 7′s and the Olympics and how Australia are going to win it.
SO 2003 – the old trick of trying to hop on whatever other sporting bandwagon thats in the news has been done to death. In the meantime, as your excellent article oin the ARC testifies, the game in Australia struggles because of lack of infrastructure.
August 14th 2012 @ 8:05am
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:05am | Report comment
Well done Brett, very well done.
Guys,
I’ve been saying for 4 years now Deans is doing a good job with a moderately talented team. I’ve been following rugby for 45 years, & I can recall better Wallaby teams, about a half a dozen of them.
Some of you get carried away with the potential of the team, rather than the results. Potential & results are very different beasts.
And of course the Deans haters, especially fellow Kiwis, can see no good in Deans whatsoever. I’ve long been intrigued why he engenders so much dislike. Is it some kind of jealousy? I can’t use the ‘tall poppy’ theory because Deans is actually a short bloke…..
August 14th 2012 @ 8:34am
Johnno said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:34am | Report comment
i think Sheek Deans is hated my many circles because of the inside job John mitchell and deans did on Tana Umaga in 2003 world cup semi final. Umaga the best centre in the world with BOD left out and he was fit and raring to go. Tana in his book was ropable at John mitchell and Deans, but Deans did an inside job on him and went for fellow cantebririan Leon Turnstile mcdonald, to give crusaders players more ab’s in the squad. Terrible what those 2 did to Tana Umaga. Also choosing a crusader captain ruben thorne over Umaga too was also why Deans is hated by kiwis. ANd also for Denas daring to question the great sir graham henry for the AB’s job left many kiwis filthy at Deans daring to challenge sir graham .
August 14th 2012 @ 8:43am
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:43am | Report comment
Johnno
There’s one part of your argument I won’t accept – Deans may be a Cantabrian, but he wants to win, & if the best candidates come from other provinces, he would select them.
To suggest he just wanted to fill the ABs with as many Crusaders as possible, is just plain crazy talk.
Also, the thing about Henry is that while he was respected, he wasn’t universally loved. So criticising Henry, if that’s what Deans did, is not the ‘sin’ you portray it to be.
Common Johnno – what were you smoking last night? Your conspiracy theories are overflowing this morning……….
August 14th 2012 @ 8:52am
Johnno said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Johnno, You’ve moved over to moderation and possibly a couple of weeks in lock up. The others are too kind to you here. This is insane claptrap. Please, take your medicine before coming on to The Roar. Thanks, Roar Mods.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:07am
Brett McKay said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:07am | Report comment
that’s it Johnno, I truly have no idea what you’re talking about now, you’ve officially bewildered the heck out of me…
August 14th 2012 @ 9:27am
Rhino said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:27am | Report comment
If at 11am today we heat that Deans has picked Barnes, Horne and TImani again, then we’ll know know he’s been smoking whatever Jonno is smoking this morning.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:24am
Atawhai Drive said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Quick, nurse! Johnno’s out of his bed again!
August 14th 2012 @ 9:28am
Johnno said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
Ha ha Atawahi yes i am on the loose, ready for trouble need to be slowed down.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:43am
Johnno said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Okay roar mods i will behave right away please do not put me on moderation for 2 weeks that is a long time. I will behave pronto and take my medicine i promise, i am just a bit tired today that’s all. But i can snap out of it and switch on again, and turn the light back on in my mind and switch on.
August 14th 2012 @ 10:33am
kingplaymaker said | August 14th 2012 @ 10:33am | Report comment
I say let Johnno off: others just write posts that don’t even consider the issues involved (some of the responses to this interview in fact) and however he does it Johnno does that.
I don’t think the Roarers should decide though as in practice this might just mean an enemy of Johnno’s pipes up rather than someone giving a fair opinion.
August 14th 2012 @ 11:09am
Riccardo said | August 14th 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Johnno’s use of the punctuation keys is horrible and he needs to learn how to paragraph.
However, Johnno is also knowledgable and has some salient points. Johnno also engages and replies.
I say let him off too.
August 14th 2012 @ 11:53am
Harry said | August 14th 2012 @ 11:53am | Report comment
Argues his points with passion and conviction; goes OTT some times but surely within boundaries?
August 14th 2012 @ 3:06pm
SandBox said | August 14th 2012 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
hmm, made a post in favour of freedom of speech and it gets pulled by mods. I’ll go back to reading George Orwell and not question anything the mods do on Roar in future
August 14th 2012 @ 1:45pm
peterlala said | August 14th 2012 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
Crazy, Sheek, but true. Who is the better centre? Tana Umaga or Leon McDonald?
If you think Leon McDonald, then Johnno is wrong.
I’ll make it a bit easy. Leon McDonald was a fullback. (But I forget, it’s now “intelligent” to constantly play Wallabies out of position.)
August 14th 2012 @ 8:44am
Ben S said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:44am | Report comment
There is no way on earth that players like Moore, Sharpe, Pocock, Palu, Genia, Cooper, Ioane and Beale are moderately talented. That really is disingenuous to the max. Even a player like Robinson was arguably the top loosehead in the world around 2009/10 (I forget which season).
August 14th 2012 @ 8:47am
Jiggles said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
O’Connor and Horwill too…
August 14th 2012 @ 8:53am
Ben S said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Yep, forgot about them.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:17am
Justin2 said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:17am | Report comment
I brought this up yesterday also. I think we have a VERY talented bunch of players right now. They can play unbelievable football at times and be an absolute joy to watch.
To say we are limited is inaccurate and frankly an insult to many of the players involved.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:20am
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Ben S,
Perhaps I should have clarified, these current guys are moderately talented compared to some of their predecessors.
From the players you mentioned, only Pocock & Genia would challenge the top 3 in each position from the past 45 years.
Pocock is as hard as nails, but as Spiro cleverly pointed out, he offers little as a running openside. I would much prefer Smith, or Wilson, or Cornelsen, or even Poidevin as an openside.
Ray Price during his brief stint, was arguably the best openside of the past 45 years. Every bit as tough as Pocock, but more dangerous as a runner also.
Genia still has flaws in his game. I wouldn’t select him above Hipwell, Farr-Jones or Gregan. Not yet anyway.
At fullback, Burke is the front marker, with perhaps Latham & Gould behind him in that order. Beale is getting there, but he’s not there yet.
At hooker, Kearns remains the best followed by Lawton. I also had a lot of time for a guy called Billy Ross. Then there’s Foley & Cannon. I like Moore, but he needs to be more consistently ruthless.
Ioane is pretty special, but so were Campese & Moon; & Tune & Roff; & Tuqiri.
Both Sharpe & Horwill are solid, but give me Eales, Vickerman, Williams, Cutler, Giffin & McCall first.
Cooper has some talent but doesn’t even rate with Ella. While both Lynagh & Larkham had better all-round games.
James O’Connor is an over-hyped, overblown, self-indulgent playboy.
So you see, from my experience over 45 years, some of these guys aren’t as ‘hot’ as you younger brigade might believe…..
August 14th 2012 @ 9:31am
Ben S said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Tomato, tomeyto… Very few sides in Test rugby currently have players who are some of the best players in their national history, so for me that’s pie in the sky. In world context Australia has some average players, but also some very good players.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:38am
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
Ben S,
I was merely responding to your query…..
August 14th 2012 @ 10:15am
formeropenside said | August 14th 2012 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Sheek – which Gregan, for instance? I also disagree with many of your “best” assessments – for instance, without goalkicking I thought Burke was second-rate – but Gregan over the period of his career did not match Gregan at his best.
August 14th 2012 @ 11:55am
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 11:55am | Report comment
FOS,
I don’t necessarily disagree with you either. But for every disagreement you put up, hopefully I can provide a logical explanation.
Gregan was one tough nut who played 135 tests. Maybe about 30 tests too many, but still, full marks for durability.
Gregan wasn’t a great scrumhalf technically, but he was as tough as granite. For Genia, he needs to progress from being as tough physcially as Gregan to also being as silkily skillful as either Hipwell or Far-Jones.
With Burke, there were two versions – the free running younger version, & the older, more conservative version. I like to remember the young Matt Burke circa 1996-98.
August 14th 2012 @ 6:25pm
apelu said | August 14th 2012 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
He deserves no response from you Sheek. He has all figured out.
August 14th 2012 @ 7:10pm
Ben S said | August 14th 2012 @ 7:10pm | Report comment
I know you are, I’m just saying I don’t think it makes much sense that just because the players aren’t yet comparable to the best in their nation’s history that they aren’t good Test players.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:41am
Johnno said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Sheek some points. i am curious about. I only saw poideven in bits and pieces in the rugby world cup 1991, and as i got older i still had no idea in reality what made a good fetcher. I thought poidevan was one of the all time great fetchers and only george smith ahead off him. Poidevan is a randwick man too sheek and i have a hunch you a randwick fan through and through.
How at randwick you could be in reserve grade and picked picked for the tahs or wallabies eg Paul Horton, or Tim Kellehar, those were the days, . Only went to a few randwick games sheek but i went to a few as kid in 1990 and watched a Mark ella about 30-31 still play champagne rugby and cost totally for free , wow don’t see deals like that anymore.
-But i will let you in on a fact about the fullback spot and a little perplexing, .
-2003 world cup final:
-Matt Rogers was the full back age 28
-Matt burke age 30
-Joe Roff age 28
-Chris Latham aged 28 in the squad to
-But Matt rogers out of those 4 quality candidates was seen as the best by eddie jones a former randwick man too, who just may as well of been a wallaby if a certain other randwick man phil kearns didn’t show up from nowhere reserve grade at randwick and into the test team.
-So how do you rate Matt rogers in terms of being the best tin the last 45 years, and also what about steve larkham as the fullback too in terms of the last 45 years, Larkham and darren lockyear are very similar stlyes. both crossed over to 5/8 when both were good fullbacks.
David Campese and david knox were both very good fullbacks too sheek, and alas to be annoying also both randwick men.
-But matt rogers was the fullback seen as the best choice out of those 4. Matt rogers also by the way was a randwick man in his rugby days too, as was george gregan in the end and chris whittaker having to play 2nd grade sometimes the back up wallaby halfback playing 2nd grade, wow those were the days sheek.
August 14th 2012 @ 10:17am
formeropenside said | August 14th 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Eddie Jones was never going to be a Wallaby – he was so far behind McBain and Lawton it wasn’t funny (well, actually it was pretty funny, if you were lucky enough to be a Queenslander).
August 14th 2012 @ 11:57am
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 11:57am | Report comment
FOS,
Jones was actually a very good hooker, but lacked size. In any case, Kearns, Lawton & McBain were all bigger & better.
But let’s not unnecessarily deride Jones, he was damn good as a player.
August 14th 2012 @ 12:00pm
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
Johnno,
The selection of Rogers can be argued with the benefit of hindsight. But he was deemed the best at the time in 2003 & so be it.
Burke was a bit past his prime in 2003, while Latham was guilty at the time of inconsistency.
August 14th 2012 @ 6:41pm
Spencer said | August 14th 2012 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
Well said Ben. Although the Wallabies may not have strength in depth in some positions, it is just not reality to keep saying that “Deans is doing the best he can with a mediorce bunch of players”. Sheek needs to stop working so much overtime.
August 14th 2012 @ 8:53am
soapit said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
but sheek the job of the coach is to develop the potential.
i interpret this as taking “x factor” players and teaching them how to play stable and when to switch between the two.
as to the dislike of deans i was a fan until last year when the whole wc cup campaign and lead up he made several baffling decisions which all fairly predictably backfired on him. lost a lot of respect for his planning capabilities last year.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:23am
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Soapit,
True enough.
Who’s to say Deans hasn’t developed potential? He may simply not have developed it at the speed you would like. Perhaps he’s developed potential as best he could under the circumstances.
I’m not sure I would like to be coaching this current generation of Wallabies. They appear to be a hugely self-indulgent lot…..
August 14th 2012 @ 1:25pm
soapit said | August 14th 2012 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
i would say he hasnt developed those x factor player enough to be able to trust them in the run on team.
he has developed some (mainly beale) but the big one and most important (as ur 10) is cooper. he’s played near to 40 tests now and still isnt trusted in a crunch game (though i’m hoping its just a matter of trusting the incumbent and if we lose on sat cooper will be back in).
i dont mind a couple of steady players in the backline but three is too many imo (especially from 10-13). but we’re a few years into his reign and we literally have zero x factor options at 12 or 13.
sure the development probably not all his fault but it is his ultimate responsibility as the head manager of the team.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:08am
Brett McKay said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Cheers Sheek, many thanks indeed..
Also, Deans isn’t as short as you think – I’m a tad under 6ft and we were eye-to-eye when standing!!
August 14th 2012 @ 10:29am
astro said | August 14th 2012 @ 10:29am | Report comment
Glad you said it Brett! I work in the same building as the ARU, and have shared many a short lift ride with Robbie. He is actually much taller than I expected him to be!
August 14th 2012 @ 9:09am
Wally James said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Sheek, I personally think Robbie is a very decent bloke. So often I hear of his dedication to Australian Rugby at school, grade and junior rugby functions. He chats to everyone and stays longer than he might otherwise have to. His Rugby knowledge is unquestionable. Everyone has his own opinion of course and not everyone will agree with him. That’s always going to happen to any coach.
What I object to is we have a coach of a national side who is not an Australian. It is nothing personal against Robbie. I do not think it is fair on him to stand arm in arm with his fellow coaches before a test singing “Advance Australia Fair” when he did not know the words until about 4 years ago. I don’t think it is fair on him or us to have a Wallaby coach who stared Wallabies down while doing the Haka.
I am sure he has the dedication to do his very best for Australia. He seems to me to be that sort of bloke. But I do not see how he could possibly have the passion that an Australian has. I think our coach should have that. I think eveyone who represents our counry should have that.
In short I don’t want Rugby to go the way of Soccer and have a hired gun, however knowledgeable and personable, in charge. I am defintely not a Deans hater, I respect him – yet I want him gone.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:29am
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Wally,
This is the world we live in today. Our Socceroos have had a foreign coach for several decades now. NZ coaches are seen guiding British teams.
Where the coach comes from is largely irrelevant at national level. The players should have the skill set before they get selected as Wallabies. That is the job of coaches at each level.
The national coach is more a manager. He outlines the strategy & develops the tactics, & selects the players he thinks most able to carry out the strategy. It’s not the job of the national coach to be sorting out technical flaws in players.
Nor is it his job to inflame the players with passion. If they aren’t already excited about pulling on the Wallaby jersey, then the coach can’t help them. At the highest level, the players ought to be self-motivated.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:53am
Wally James said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Cheers Sheek. Fair points you make.
However, it is the world we live in today because it is allowed to be that way. Can you imagine anyone other than a NZer coaching NZ? While you and I are above ground that’s not going to happen I think. It seems to me that the Socceroos doing it that way is a good reason not to do it that way whereas the Kiwis do things well.
As for the coach not being there to impassion players at a national level, pehaps we can agree to disagree. I doubt whether Dave Brockoff, Tempo and Alan Jones would accept your proposition though. A kiwi telling a Wallaby to stick it up the Kiwis has a ring of artifice to it.
August 14th 2012 @ 12:09pm
sheek said | August 14th 2012 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
Hi Wally,
The Kiwis are unlikely to have a foreign coach in our time, simply because they intuitively understand rugby better than most of the rest of us. That’s why the ABs are usually the best.
That’s also why the ABs will probably always have a Kiwi as coach, & why the rest of the world seeks a Kiwi coach hoping some of their magic rubs off on us/them.
Moral to the story – if we want an Aussie to always be Wallaby coach, then we had better get cracking bettering our intuitive understanding of how rugby works!
Look, I can agree the right coach can have the right effect on players. But it’s a tricky thing. I had some coaches in my day who bored the living daylights out of me when they started their pre-match rant.
I much preferred the low-key coach who went around individually with quiet words of encouragement.
August 14th 2012 @ 2:02pm
moaman said | August 14th 2012 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
” A kiwi telling a Wallaby to stick it up the Kiwis has a ring of artifice to it. ” Or ‘Orifice’>==?
Wally James–I couldn’t agree more.I would loathe the idea of a foreign coach in charge of the ABs.It’s bad enough we have aliens running our cricket over here-and what a shambles that is! Not that I am xenophobic atall–it’s just the mercenary ‘feel’ to it…..you want your ‘tribe’ to be genuine,and need the coaches to have vested and profound interest that doesn’t involve their bank balances.
August 14th 2012 @ 9:33am
Atawhai Drive said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
I’m not a Deans hater. With my background, that’s hardly likely.
But one reservation I did have about his appointment is that it meant Australia was sacrificing its place at the top table i.e. Australia was one of just five countries that had never looked outside its own borders for a coach of the national team. Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Argentina have all employed foreign coaches, but Australia, along with New Zealand, South Africa, England and France, had always gone for a local.
Deans has done his best with an ordinary team, as Sheek says. Eventually, we hope, a new group of truly outstanding players will emerge. I’m not holding my breath..
August 14th 2012 @ 8:05am
Uncle Argyle said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:05am | Report comment
Why don’t we start with an attacking loose head prop – Gregory Aloysius Pius Xavier Holmes!
August 14th 2012 @ 8:37am
WQ said | August 14th 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
We done Brett, interesting theme from Robbie Deans.
He clearly believes that they had a desired game plan that his X-Factor players walked away from and consequently they lost. He also clearly points out that whilst he wants and needs the X-Factor type players in his squad, they have not used them well and will look to use them differently.
Does this mean in different positions?, does this mean as impact players off the bench?, or does this mean they should be looking for new jobs?
I personally find it quite ironic that Robbie Deans would be talking about using X-Factor players differently as a result of them not sticking to the script. He was instrumental in dragging Carlos Spencer into the All Black Number 10 jersey in front of Andrew Merthens and this played a huge part in the failure of the All Blacks at the RWC2003.
It seems he may not have learned his lesson with X-Factor players and as such I doubt he will throw the baby out with the bath water and I fully expect to seem the same again this year as we saw over the last few years i.e. the X-Factor players going very well against the lessor Teams when they have time and space, and falling to bits against the better Teams as a result of pressure. Unfortunately for Robbie his theory on these types of players is flawed!
August 14th 2012 @ 9:20am
Justin2 said | August 14th 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
How often do you hear a coach blaming the players like that? Basically he is saying if they stick to “my gameplan we will win” but when they lose they have gone away from said game plan.
Considering we have had 5yrs and there is no discenrable game plan it is not hard to understand that the players are “going away” from something that exists in only one persons mind.
August 14th 2012 @ 12:13pm
Brett McKay said | August 14th 2012 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
Thanks WQ, it was an interesting admission about deviating from the game plan, and playing too laterally, because I can’t recall this being said before.
And I thought the same thing about positional changes, or bench use, too, though I have to admit I’m now surprised Cooper wasn’t named on the bench for this weekend.
August 14th 2012 @ 2:09pm
WQ said | August 14th 2012 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
I am also surprised to see Cooper miss out?
Surely if fit, he would be an excellent bench option able to cover both Barnes or Beale? Even if not as cover, dare I say it, as an X-Factor player off the bench!
August 14th 2012 @ 2:34pm
Brett McKay said | August 14th 2012 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
that’s precisely what I was expecting, on the bench for 51st minute impact…
August 14th 2012 @ 3:22pm
WQ said | August 14th 2012 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
What happens now if this line up does not work, throw Cooper to the Lions in front of the Eden Park Crowd?