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I was more than a bit flattered when The Roar and Robbie Deans’ biographer and publishers got in touch last week, asking me to interview the former Wallabies coach again.
It’s been well over two years since I interviewed Deans for The Roar, still twelve months out from the arrival of the British and Irish Lions, and with a back drop I’ll probably never top.
Short of a text message I sent at the time, I’d not spoken to Deans since he was removed as Wallabies coach, but then again, neither had anyone.
Prolonged silence like that often means that a tell-all book is in the works, but Deans never struck me as a book kind of guy.
As we’ve already seen from last Thursday’s ‘Fed to the Lions‘ extract, Deans and author Matt McILraith certainly haven’t missed. Just as the Wallabies found themselves dealing with the Kurtley Beale fallout, senior members of the team were suddenly defending themselves from suggestions they played a role in their former mentor’s removal.
For a man known throughout the rugby world as being economical with his words, Deans was certainly happy to speak in detail on a number of topics during our chat, and you can hear the full audio of what was a really enjoyable, revealing chat below.
After such a lengthy and dignified silence, why a book, and why now?
Probably because of that fact and that I had a bit of time on my hands. It was something that, to be honest, I’d resisted. Over a long period of time I’d had approaches, as you do.
But not only for the fact that I’d had a window of opportunity, but also Matt McILraith who wrote it – and he’d generally been the bloke badgering me to do one. So I sort of felt a little bit responsible that he was in between gigs as well.
[Matt McILraith was Deans’ media manager at the Wallabies, Crusaders, and All Blacks, previously.]
It’s been good actually. The timing’s worked pretty well and it’s all been good, a good chance to reflect.
Was the reasoning and subsequent assumption around why you missed out on the All Blacks’ role in 2008 fair?
Oh, people will justify their decisions in whichever way they choose. To suggest that I was underprepared is ridiculous; that’s not the case.
But, it’s an understandable decision when you look at the reality of the circumstance. You had a team that had been working together effectively, for the greater part. They fell on a hurdle in the quarter finals [of the 2007 Rugby World Cup], but aside from that you had a combination – and by combination I don’t just mean the coaching staff, I mean the whole organisation, whether it be board and executive, or team staff.
And I guess combined with that, you had the history where New Zealand had been jumping at shadows and chopping and changing at every piece of adversity they encountered. There had been number of World Cups where the IP was discarded immediately upon the point of failure.
In this instance [the reappointment of Graham Henry], history shows that they got it right, because they didn’t throw everything out, they committed to a group that had been functioning pretty well. And that doesn’t mean that another combination couldn’t have come in and been just as successful, it just means they opted not to chop and change as they had been, because the fact of the matter is the organisation had been getting in their own way for a while.
And you had the precedent of England. In 1999, they retained Clive Woodward, and he turned around and won the title in 2003.
But how they justify it, well that’s their business.
Is coaching New Zealand still an ambition?
It’s the ultimate coaching gig, isn’t it. Any coach, particularly any New Zealand coach, would aspire to it, just as any New Zealand player aspires to be an All Black.
Yeah, it would be great, but as to whether that opportunity presents itself, who knows? But like I’ve said [in the book], if it was to present itself I’m much better for my recent experiences.
Did you see the Wallabies decision coming?
Oh look, you’re aware of the potential, always. There’s not a lot of certainty in this industry.
Likewise, to use an analogy of players and teams, when they step out onto the terrain, they understand that at any given day, they can come second. And it’s no different for us as coaches.
So you’re aware of that possibility, but insofar as you’ve been appointed, you presume the best and you presume you’ve got the backing, and you get on with it. You spend your time and energy where you can get a return, where it’s best invested.
Were you surprised to learn of the depth and breadth of the goings-on behind the scenes?
Yes and no. There were some things where the extent of it was surprising, particularly in terms of the proximity to the team and the playing group, and obviously the awareness of some of those parties.
But then on the other hand… Yeah, I was aware that the terrain, if you like, was pretty fertile.
I recall clearly the press conference after the third Lions Test in Sydney, and that much of the discussion afterwards was that you appeared as a coach not just defeated, but perhaps knowing your fate?
No, not at all. I had no idea what my fate was. But obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, there were a number of parties who knew a lot more than I did.
I recall one journalist, from north of the border, who basically stated that [my termination] was a given, in one of his articles. And so he was obviously in a position of insight.
But again, you get that sort of conjecture all the time. It’s only with the benefit of hindsight that you get the confirmation.
In the book, you spoke of the need for a more streamlined or centralised approach for Australian rugby. What do you think would be required to properly unify the states and the ARU?
There’s been a lot of effort and energy go into this area, if you were to put the same question to [ARU Chairman] Michael Hawker. I mean, they changed the constitution essentially, in order to achieve a fully independent board, so the wheels are in motion.
They did a full review, and I identified pretty consistent issues and the wheels are in motion to try and address them. A part of that was an independent governance and they’ve got the licence to push on with that, but it’s not in place yet obviously. But that’s where any organisation that wants to be successful has to get to.
New Zealand got there over time, but it took some pretty tough conversations and typically, the various interested parties tend to look at what’s in it for them first and foremost. But the irony in all that is that if you look at the New Zealand situation, for example, they centrally contracted the managers, the coaches, the conditioning staff, the doctors and are part of the appointments process to that end.
So it’s a huge advantage in terms of getting alignment [between the national team and Super Rugby franchises], and obviously there is the fear that you end up with a homogenous approach where one decision-maker makes the decision for all, but that’s not the case. It’ll never be the case, and innovation has always come out of the provinces and franchises, and previously the clubs. And they still, and will always have the incentive to innovate and to evolve in order to be competitive first, and successful second.
When New Zealand made this decision back in 2001, I was on the All Blacks staff at the time, and we lay down the All Blacks jersey on the floor and we said, ‘what you all need to understand is that this jersey has to be priority if New Zealand rugby is to thrive.’
And the irony in that is that while there was a certain anxiety as to what that would mean for the various bodies, since that day the franchises have been more consistently successful as well, because you’ve got a cooperative approach. But obviously that comes from a position of strength, whereby one party is the ultimate reference point and is ultimately accountable and hence, if there’s indecision, is responsible for making a decision.
How did your family take the news of the termination?
I think it’s tough on everyone, really. But they were like a typical family, they care first and foremost for me, so it wasn’t something they enjoyed.
But just as they’re provide great source of perspective when you are in a campaign, they also provide a great source of support when things don’t go so well. There’s no doubt it’s hardest, in this industry, it is harder for the people around you in many ways than it is for yourself because at least you’ve got the opportunity to influence in some way, to do something towards your destiny, where others really are spectators to that end, but are also exposed to the ups and downs.
Was it difficult to maintain the silence? Were you ever tempted to set the record straight?
No, it’s not my way.
You do things in real time, you give it your best crack, you keep going. It’s no different to a player, in terms of selection or non-selection. All you can do is do what you do, and keep the faith, and hope that the experience is good and successful in the first instance.
I’m a great believer in actions, rather than words. Not a lot is achieved through words.
****
I was fortunate to be able to speak to Robbie Deans for more than half an hour for this piece, and in the full audio clip below you’ll hear extended discussion on a number of the questions above. In addition, we also spoke about what he did in the days and weeks after losing the Wallabies job, on what coaching against the Lions meant to him, and on coaching and life in Ota, Japan, where he and wife Penny now call home.