By Garth Hamilton
October 11th 2007 @ 5:30am
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Argentina looking good for tight contest
South Africa v Argentina preview, by Garth Hamilton
There is a blue and white striped elephant in rugby’s living room and it’s getting harder and harder to ignore.
Argentina are no longer just Australia’s scrummaging supermarket and it is no longer an acceptable excuse for any team to be ‘caught off guard’ by the Pumas.
In light of Jacque Fourie’s declaration that the Fijians, who came within a whisker of taking a late lead in their quarter final clash, did not deserve the Springbok’s respect you must wonder if the Springboks will find enough humility to ‘respect’ the Argentineans this weekend. To under-estimate Juan Martin Hernandez and his men would be a big mistake.
Since the last world cup South Africa has been the best of the four remaining teams. This however does not really account for the Pumas who don’t compete in a regular international competition. How do we know what they are capable of under pressure? We’ve seen them in one off tests here and there but how will they go when the spot light of the world falls upon them?
For example, France showed in this year’s Six Nations tournament the same ability to perform under pressure in their match against the much fancied Ireland that they did last week against the All Blacks. Of course this template is applied with a judicious amount of hindsight, and I’m certainly not claiming to have predicted last weekend’s result, but it does show how regular competition can be a good marker of a team’s ability.
Against Scotland the Pumas looked to have more than just one eye on the next game and their on-field focus was just that little bit off. Argentina’s game plan of repeated mid-field bombs and long touch-finders has yet to be tried against a superior forward pack as neither France, Ireland or Scotland have a pack to match the Pumas or the Boks. South Africa also have some of rugby’s greatest broken play runners in their backs and you would expect them to ask a lot of questions of the South American’s backline defence.
South Africa can not rely upon waiting for their opponent to wilt as they seemed to expect in their games against the Pacific Island teams. If Argentina can frustrate the South African’s with the same devout focus they showed in the Pool of Death they can beat the Springboks. The challenge for the Springboks is to be the first team to take the game to Argentina for a full eighty minutes.
Argentina to win a tight contest.
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~~~~~~~ KB
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Enrique (Topo) Rodriguez said | October 11th 2007 @ 11:10am | Report comment
TO GARTH HAMILTON
What are you aluding to with your great creativity: “Australia’s Scrummaging Supermarket”
Mate, with this you are gratuitously offending all Argentine Forwards (dead & alive), including Patricio Noriega and myself. By the way I always considered myself: 50% - 50% (both countries).
If Australians REALLY think and respect Argentine Scrummaging they wouldn’t be in the predicament that they are now!
TOPO
Sam Taulelei said | October 11th 2007 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Does anyone else sense that Topo still has the goods to wipe the floor with Baxter, Dunning and co. in a scrummaging contest. Aye carumba!
BM said | October 11th 2007 @ 11:37am | Report comment
I vote for a Topo scrum school in Aus.
Shame Topo’s idea fell on deaf ears when it was proposed a few years ago.
slomo said | October 11th 2007 @ 11:48am | Report comment
Topo querido Topo, my emotional amigo!!!
But of course you are right - the Australian front row is a disgrace. Whoever said earlier this year following the Australian TriNations win against the ABs that Dunning “has come of age”….”and is now a world class prop”.
I’m sure that there are props in the Tucuman 3rd team that would crush Dunning.
Topo, please don’t forget my invitation to the ACCA Christmas party.
Harry said | October 11th 2007 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Surely now is the time (its not too late) for the ARU to establish a scrum school, co-ordinated by Michael Foley with Topo in Sydney/ACT and Alec Evans in Brissy. The fact is producting world class props takes time - good coaching and many hours/games spent on the field against veterans. We aren’t going to fix this weakness overnight or in 12 months, particularly as has been pointed out before scrums are effectively depowered at schoolboy and Colts level.
sheek said | October 11th 2007 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Harry,
Topo has more front-row knowledge in his little finger than Foley, McKenzie, D’Arcy or anyone else you care to mention has in their whole bodies. Topo shouldn’t work for any of these guys. They should work for him.
Topo for national scrum academy director. Just a question of whether John O’Neill will eat humble pie & give Topo the recognition he deserves.
Harry said | October 11th 2007 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Fair enough Sheek.
Peter L said | October 11th 2007 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Hear Hear Sheek - Topo, you have my vote. And if you can add in Noriega, and perhaps one or two others that may be interested (I have heard that Martin Johnson is keen to move to Aus - his dad lives next door and is good friends with one of my previous mem-sahib bwana bossmen in Market Harbour (or Harborough) in the UK, a bloke I maintain contact with).
Funny story there actual - sorry to deviate. In 2003, not long after the RWC, I was in the UK at a BBQ at my then-new Bosses place, and the neighbour popped over to join in. Over a few ales we talked Rugby and he invited me to his home to see some of his “memorabilia.” On entering the house there are framed jerseys and test caps all over the place, all the same number… and the penny drops - last name, Johnson, lots of test caps/jerseys - my god, you’re a relative of Martin! This dude, maybe 6 feet tall (slightly taller than my own statuesque 5′10″) says “sort of - his bedroom is upstairs…he’s my wee boy.” he told me his “World Cup” moment - on the return of the English team he had been picked up by Limo and driven the 3 hours or so to London to join the parade and festivities. When the team went on to party, he decided to head home but couldn’t find his limo, so he caught the train and arrived in Market Harbour around midnight - no taxi. My boss was summoned, and had to pop down to the station to pick him up and get him home.
stillmissit said | October 11th 2007 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
Topo your statement of “If Australians REALLY think and respect Argentine Scrummaging they wouldn’t be in the predicament that they are now!” suggests that you were putting up ideas and they were being ignored. Is this correct? and if so, who did you suggest scrummaging changes to?
I remember coming to Australia a lifetime ago after a season in NZ and was shocked that the techniques I had learnt in NZ that would have improved our scrum and lineout was not wanted. Are we too inward looking in Australia do you think?
There are many of us on this site who would like to see you as scrum coach or in some other position where your knowledge could be put to good use. Christ knows we need it!
Stu said | October 11th 2007 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
I hope the puma’s can do it - lovely to see them break the boks. It’s a tough task though
de Villiers said | October 11th 2007 @ 5:40pm | Report comment
Stu - prepare yourself to be dissapointed son.
Enrique (Topo) Rodriguez said | October 11th 2007 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
Thank you Sheek,
You ae reading your book very well!
tOPO
Enrique (Topo) Rodriguez said | October 11th 2007 @ 9:37pm | Report comment
Dear Stillmissit,
You are absolutely correct in your suspicions!
THEY heard me for faar too long and paid no attention to my plight!
No amount of begging would have swayed them though! because Australian Administrators are TOO arrogant and self serving! to admit their are NOT CORRECT!
Mate, 1st go in 1996, 2nd go in 1998, 3rd go in 2005!!!!?????? Mate I played the game for 22 years. Did I learn something about it? Frigging lots! Never got the chance to show the bastards how good I was? or how much I know!?????
If you are a Doctor and study for 10 years for it, you want to practice wouldn’t you?
I’m sick and tired of this shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After 22 years as a player, who do I have to give exam about it???????????????????????????????????
tOPO
tOPO
Garth Hamilton said | October 11th 2007 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
Topo,
Thank Christ I didn’t pick the Pumas to lose or you would have had a real go at me
The expression ‘scrummaging supermarket’, a stodgy alliteration at best I’ll admit, was used to illustrate what I believe to be Australian rugby’s view of Argentina. That is a great source of quality scrummagers but, and this is the point, not a country we should ensure we play regularly. We point to the great impact yourself and Patricio Noriega made whilst wearing Australia’s colours but somehow don’t think that we should give something back to Argentina.
The Wallabies have played Argentina 17 times. This is roughly the same number of games we’ve had against the New Zealand Maori (16) and they aren’t even a national team. The sad thing is that the only other major team to have played Argentina more times is France (40).
Australia has benefited from the inclusion of Argentinean born players but what has Argentina got out of Australia? Have our rugby administrators pushed hard enough for Argentina’s inclusion in the Tri-Nations or Super rugby? Have we allowed foreign players to play for our Super 14 teams like the Northern Hemisphere teams have?
No.
Australian rugby has used Argentina in much the same way Australia and New Zealand have used the Pacific Islands (the relatively recent Pacific Nations Cup is a step in the right direction). In this way Australia has treated Argentina not as a rugby nation deserving our respect but as a ‘supermarket’. This reflects badly on Australia and not on Argentina and was in no way intended as a slight on any Argentine player.
Argentina’s rise, despite such neglect, has been remarkable.
On the topic of scrum schools there can surely be no better time than now to get this idea off the ground. As my wife constantly reminds me, the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
sheek said | October 11th 2007 @ 10:00pm | Report comment
Topo,
4 times I’ve tried to post an article on Roar proclaiming you for Director of ‘National Academy for Scrum Aspirants’. NASA for short - ha, ha, ha, ha (sorry, I like my little jokes sometimes).
But each time the post was truncated or lost. I will try one more time because you deserve it. Stay tuned.
Topo, with your other commitments, assistant coach of the Wallabies is out for you. But with your phenomenal accumulated knowledge, heading up a National Scrum Academy is right up your alley.
Enrique (Topo) Rodriguez said | October 11th 2007 @ 10:16pm | Report comment
SHEEK,
I can only say now…………go to bed!
Me 2,
t.
Robb Roi said | October 12th 2007 @ 2:03am | Report comment
GARTH
“neither France, Ireland or Scotland have a pack to match the Pumas or the Boks.” You sure the French dont?
“South Africa also have some of rugby’s greatest broken play runners in their backs”. I’m afraid my list stopped after Brian “The Interceptor” Habana.
Actually, we dont need world class scrummagers, just a couple than can manage not to collapse or go backwards too qukckly, giving away penalties. Like the Fijians against SA, or the Scots vs. Argentina. Contrary to what some have said, it wasnt bad scrum ball that let us down and took the wind out of the loosies. Its just that the scrums kept leaking penalties and 3 of the 4 England goals came either directly from or immediately after scrum penalties. The only other likely England avenue for scoring was that other refuge of the skill-less - the rolling maul.
matty p said | October 12th 2007 @ 5:07am | Report comment
France don’t have the pack to match the Boks or the Pumas? They seemed to do allright against the ABs last weekend…
stillmissit said | October 12th 2007 @ 6:04am | Report comment
Topo
I think herein lies the hub of the problem with Australian rugby. I think the idea goes a bit like this “We dont need any fancy machine guns we have plenty of bows and arrows”. This approach also explains Sheeks view that we are successful in cycles that take a while to come around, what I call the YOYO effect. We have to hit the bottom hard before we clean the place out of self serving political bastards and start again.
If the administrators are convinced that they are right and hold all the knowledge for success then they are bound to fail sooner or later. Life and Rugby are too complex and psychological for one person or a small group of administrators to have all the answers. Why wouldnt the coaches ask for advice from you? You were clearly the best prop that ever played for Australia.
Topo the sad thing is there is nobody in the country that could set an exam for you. They wouldn’t understand the answers you gave anyway.
sheek said | October 12th 2007 @ 6:49am | Report comment
Stillmissit,
Hear, hear! (Especially if Topo’s answers were in Spanish mixed with beer & red wine!).
Enrique (Topo) Rodriguez said | October 12th 2007 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
Garth: You absolutely correct on this, doing the same thing over and over again.
I wont: repeat it !
Where is the people that believes in Argentina:
Are they: Connolly, Folley, Evans and Blades???????????(the Whole lot were coaching the Australian scrum in early 2007.
(the same tOPO that belt the crap out of the Kiwis in 1986 or any other year)
t.
Peter L said | October 12th 2007 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
Topo - if for nothing other than your passion you’re there, your ability and knowledge right now would just be pure bonus country.
Go you good thing!
Jaffa said | October 13th 2007 @ 1:14am | Report comment
All previous contributors are correct in supporting the involvement of the great Topo in identifying and developing elite level front rowers. The only other name I haven’t seen mentioned as having something to contribute is the great Jake Howard, who has form, knowledge and experience second to none - why has his expertise been lost to Australian rugby?
While Rod Mcqueen was coaching the Brumbies and then Australia, Jake was heavily invoved, but not so much since Rod retired.
I suspect that Rod would not have regarded himself as a guru on front row play/coaching, as he was a backrower in his playing days, and therefore he felt comfortable in having that area covered by an expert. Perhaps his successors Eddie Jones and Knuckles Connolly (ex hooker and prop respectively) felt they could cover that area themselves, or alternatively maybe they were worried that Jake might show them up!
Enrique (Topo) Rodriguez said | October 13th 2007 @ 4:05am | Report comment
TO ALL & SUNDRY:
Personally I don’t know which way “the cookie” will crumble, whether:
a) E. (T) Rodriguez becomes the Head of a National Scrum School/Academy; or
b) Be one of the pieces of it contributing with several other names; or
c) None of the above.
Since 1996 I become used to anything happening favourable or untoward me. Furthermore, I have been educating & coaching for many years in Rugby, also Leadeship and Teamwork, and in recent times am involved in Mental Health, there are a few very important concepts that I feel must be re-floated or re-ignited. We may say that the below points are by-products of the professional rugby era and PROFESSIONAL RUGBY ADMINISTRATION.
1) The scrum is played by 8 players. Therefore, PLEASE PLEASE stop talking about front-rowers only. The responsibility, credit or otherwise in the scrum is of the WHOLE pack!
2) Rugby in Australia NEEDS to become an INCLUSIVE sport as vs. EXCLUSIVE. Enough of these privileged circles of pre-destination, and early ear-marking of the cattle. Whether that comes from GPS or CAS or CHS or whatever………!
3) From the start of the professional era, ALL paid personnel have had great tenability of contracts and longevity of career attached to it. I believe that If you get the substantial $$$, then accountability and performance examination should occurr on a regular basis. Too many people have been hidding behind the organisations and teams and not enough people have been given opportunities to show “their wares”. This point implies a huge CULTURE CHANGE, but not impossible! Jack Welch, the well known GE CEO, used to invariably shed at the end of the year 5% of his staff (I’d call it: “natural renovation”) you perhaps will call it attrition rate.
4) There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with holding young players back and to encourage them to complete a tertiary study, trade, etc. before they engage (or get contracted) in professional rugby. If a young guy or girl get badly hurt in rugby or other sport (i.e. spinal injuries/quadriplegia) they become a huge burden for the family and an on-going cost high cost for society, and the injured person’s self esteem also beomes horribly dented due to the inability to become productive or to hold a job.
5) All ex-props and ex-coaches and current coaches are needed to re-dress this deficiency in Scrummaging in Australia. that started exactly at the end of 2001 when we believed that we where still the WORLD CHAMPION TEAM in beating the LIONS in the last 5 minutes of the 3 test series, when in realty we lost it for 235 minutes!
The same arrogance that we had for the last 6 years is the same arrogance that NZ had for the last 4 years (albeit with better coaches and better players in many positions)
Finally, I am currently very happily engaged as Executive Director & Founder of: Topo Foundation for Education Limited. At TF4E we provide EDUCATION, AWARENESS & DE-STIGMATISATION of Mental Illness (Bipolar, Depression, etc.) for Schools, Sporting Clubs and Community Groups. Today it is estimated that 20% (1 in 5) of the population is affected by Mental Illnesses.
Kind regards and…………. Argentina by 3 points!!!!!!
tOPO
Peter L said | October 13th 2007 @ 4:37am | Report comment
Topo - in my heart I’m with you and an Argie win, semi’s and against the frogs in the final.
In my tipping comp I’m afraid it’s a different matter.
fatpete said | October 13th 2007 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
I’d love to see Argentina win the World Cup !
What a fantastic result it would be for the development of the game in Argentina, and what an impact it would have on world rugby for the under recognised & unrespected Pumas to sit on the top of the peck order of world rugby - might shake the arrogance of the traditional rugby nations??
Perhaps prick the conscience of “the powers that be” when vested interest seemed to prevail over the development of world rugby, when they ignored Japan & awarded the 2011 Cup to NZ !!
Good luck Pumars, I hope you can do it !
stillmissit said | October 14th 2007 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Fatpete
It would be hard to see too many Aussies supporting the Pommies, although I think the game today was the best game I have seen them play in 30 years. They actually used their backs effectively. It would also be a big struggle to support South Africa if they get through.
Argentina to win it - Go the Puma’s
Ben from Pretoria said | October 15th 2007 @ 8:56pm | Report comment
Stillmissit
It is understandable that it is difficult for Aussies and Kiwis to support the Springboks but now it truly North vs South. It will be great to have our SANZAR partners on board for this clash.
Come on boys, keep the Cup in the south!
Ben C said | October 16th 2007 @ 5:50am | Report comment
Ben
I will admit I don’t like the Springboks. Something about their attitude annoys me. I am sure there are plenty of South Africans who think the same about Australia. I dislike England as well but not any more or less than South Africa.
Nevertheless I will be backing the Springboks this weekend. Not because of any North-South divide but because the Springboks are capable of grinding rugby like the English but also capable of exhilarating 15-man running rugby. (Well 14 man running rugby, Percy is a great kicker but he doesn’t like heavy traffic). A win by the English would send all the wrong signals about the type of rugby that should be played.
Hopefully South Africa can show that even against the best grinding rugby team in the world, a team can still implement attractive running rugby and win. Well done England for picking the right strategy for their team and implementing it well but that strategy is still a guaranteed way to send fans into a stupor.
Alas, it will be ‘Go Springboks’ this weekend.
stillmissit said | October 16th 2007 @ 11:01am | Report comment
ben c
you have summed up my feelings about South Africa and England and given me a reason to support SA. I am a reluctant starter in this but ‘jarra yo bluksum’ bokkies to win, cant spell it but it’s sounds like this. Not totally sure what it means either, I think I hung around too many south african rugby players in my time.