By Jesse Fink
March 6th 2009 @ 3:34am
Related coverage
The Ogre pricks the Verbeek balloon
It’s been a dramatic sort of week for national men’s coach Pim Verbeek, first with Sasa Ognenovski coming out in the press and bucketing the Dutchman for destroying his dream of representing the Socceroos.
Then Verbeek himself going on the backfoot and publicly apologising for calling Socceroos striker Archie Thompson “absolutely hopeless” in Jakarta last month.
Verbeek has been weathering all sorts of direct and veiled criticism for his no-frills football and no-frills talking for a year now, but the level of antipathy towards him has probably never been so high.
And it comes at a strange time, with Australia virtually one game away from securing automatic qualification for South Africa 2010.
I will declare that I have had a coffee or two with Verbeek over the time he’s been in the country and I enjoy a good personal relationship with him. But I’ve never been afraid to tell him what I think he might be doing wrong or could be doing better (inasmuch as my opinion counts for anything) and to his credit he always listens. He might not agree but he listens – and that is the mark of a gentleman.
Verbeek, however, has strong opinions of his own and he isn’t normally one to resile from them, so it is notable that he has toned down his act. But he would have sensed that perhaps he had stepped over the line with his recent brutal assessments of the A-League and the ructions they caused in the press and among A-League coaches and chief executives who have been working overtime to lure representative players home.
By far the most damaging salvo fired at Verbeek, though, was Ognenovski’s, who has now left the country for Korean club football and Macedonian national-team honours.
“If [Verbeek] doesn’t respect the league, he should keep his thoughts to himself,” he railed this week. “He’s way too harsh. I mean some of the games I’ve seen from the Dutch league are horrible. You get good and bad games anywhere. Basically, he’s bagging the players that he wants to go out there and do a job against teams like Kuwait. That’s not going to motivate them, it’s going to destroy their confidence. I’ve spoken to a few of them and they just shake their heads every time he says something about the A-League.”
This is a revealing quote, because any player on the fringe of national-team selection is loath to reveal any reservations he might have about the manager or his methods for fear of jeopardising his career.
But Ognenovski had nothing to lose and, fresh from the grand final and with six Adelaide team-mates in the squad for the Socceroos’ 5 March match against Kuwait in Canberra, he would have known what is going on inside the camp – and inside the minds of the players.
Whether or not Verbeek or Ognenovski is right on this issue is really beside the point.
It is imperative that the perception of division between team and manager be addressed and nipped in the bud immediately. And that requires compromise from both camps – Verbeek perhaps holding his fire more than usual and the “Socceroos Lite” players (our A-League Socceroos) learning to accept his methods and some of his “madness”.
Verbeek is an excellent manager who has an international track record that is second to none in this country. He deserves respect.
I’m sure he’s enough of a man, though, to also admit he could start reciprocating a little as well.
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(61)
derfurt said | March 6th 2009 @ 6:58am | Report comment
‘inasmuch as my opinion counts for anything’.
Good to see you finally getting something right.
sledgeross said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:09am | Report comment
It was one of the worst Australian sporting matches Ive ever witnessed. I kept having to change it because I was so embarrassed. Pondeljak and Moore were the only ones who didnt look scared (Matt Simon, didnt look scared either, but he’s a mean bugger!). Maybe the Ogster was right, Pims criticism sapped the confidence of an already technically inept squad.
But at the end of the day, these blokes are professionals. They should be able to take criticism. All they have done is prove Pim right. I thought he was harsh, but he is also spot on. These blokes are not good enough, or Pim doesnt manage them well enough to hide their weaknesses.
I mean, our most dangerous target man was Robbie Cornflakes when he came on….
cosmos forever said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Agree Sledge, but Pim is meant to be a professional too and they should have taken that criticism in a closed and honest team environment. They looked shell shocked and lacking any motivation (and their skill level was appalling so I’m blaming coach and players!).
Going back to your earlier post about image Jesse, a couple of reflections:
*The ridiculously high numbers on the players backs – not sure of the reason but had a feeling of “you are not the top 11″ about it
*The manager sitting high up in the stands and leaving the coaching to his assistant (in tracksuit just to anger you..) reeks of “you are not important enough to have me on the sidelines”
I’m over analysing, but guess what – so would the players he was expecting to get the most of.
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:28am | Report comment
Cosmos
Pim Verbeek is suspended for 3 match as he was sent off in the 3rd place playoff against Japan when he was coaching Korea.
THis is 2nd match of his suspension
Greg said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:31am | Report comment
Archie was “absolutely hopeless” last night. In the team to score goals, he fluffed his lines with that pathetic left foot strike. No wonder he looked so embarrassed when being interviewed after the game. For mine, Ognenovski has been crying over spilt milk. I don’t think we will see the A League Socceroos again for a while yet. Well done to Kuwait, they played our team off the park.
cosmos forever said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:32am | Report comment
Fair enough De Silva. The numbers?
Slippery Jim said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:33am | Report comment
Verbeek was serving the second of a three-match sideline ban, Cosmos. Please try to look at the facts first before jumping to conclusions. This match proves Pim’s points about the A-League. The players are simply not good enough at international level.
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:34am | Report comment
I think with Ogre, he was playing a game with Pim saying pick me or I’ll play for Macedonia. Pim didn’t buy into it and now Ogre is pissed.
Greg said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Cosmos; non of those wearing the gold last night are part of our current first 11, with the possible exception of Craig Moore. He had a poor game, and may be dropped for the Uzbek game. In the Asian Cup players must wear the same number all through the tournament, so it is best to leave numbers 1-18 for the players that will represent us in the finals, IF we qualify.
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:37am | Report comment
The numbers
Hard to explain it but Pim wanted to use european players later on in the ACQ so he reserved all the first 30 numbers for the European players and give the A-league team ridiculously high numbers as AFC states you can’t change numbers throughout the campaign.
To me, that’s gives a signal that you are 2nd rate socceroos.
SJ
Under Graham Arnold, we defeated Kuwait 2-0 with an A-League team. Granted it was a stronger team before the Asia exodus but I don’t think Pim should be completely excused from criticism.
cosmos forever said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Ha Slippery, it’s a bit too early for passionate claims of looking at the facts – slow up on that coffee mate. A simple mistake, sorted by Da Silva’s comment.
Agree the players weren’t good enough, agree Ogre may have just been playing clever politics or crying over spilt milk (sometimes there is very little difference), just trying to point out that in this day and age of sports science etc there are enough indicators to show this team have been devalued and undermined (even in a tiny way) by the actions of the coach.
*Disclosure – no facts were used in the formulation of the previous paragraph – just opinions
Thanks for the follow-up on numbers as well. I’m thinking that at the moment there are a large number of fans that probably agree that some of those who played last night deserve a number over 100!
Kazama said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:42am | Report comment
I think you could tell from Archie’s post-match interview with Mel M that Pim’s comments were in his mind during the game. When you tell a team that they aren’t good enough they will probably react in a way to try to prove you wrong, but if things don’t go right for them then it can backfire and stuff them up, and last night it did.
That said, there was no excuse for last night’s abysmal display from the boys. It was the worst I have seen an Australian side play since the 2-2 draw with the Solomons at Hindmarsh. Kuwait totally outplayed us, they were the better team by a mile. Our players underestimated the opposition and over estimated themselves, and then when things were going against them Pim’s comments started to play on their minds; their heads dropped and we were never going to win once that happened.
If our boys played to the best of their ability they should have been able to beat Kuwait – after all, a team of A-Leaguers beat Kuwait 2-0 (albeit in a shoddy display) in the last Asian Cup Campaign. Frankly on last night’s performance a well-drilled state league team would have beaten the Socceroos. The deployment of Robbie Cornthwaite as a forward – a tactic not even resorted to by Vidmar this season – gives us some clue as to how clueless the team was in the final third last night.
I am all for giving A-League players a chance to perform at international level but last night they had their chance and they threw it away. They were fighting for the pride of the A-League, thanks to Pim’s comments, and they’ve delivered a huge blow to the credibility of the competition. Taking nothing away from Kuwait who did the job they set out to do, last night was an own goal for the A-League and Australian football – and there’s plenty of blame to go around.
Eddie said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:44am | Report comment
To be fair, his criticism was spot on. They were insipid last night. Constantly second to the ball and when they did string a couple of passes together, notice I said couple, they’s invariably lose it with a misdirected pass or an aimless long ball, or they’d simply miscontrol it. Yes Kuwait hustled and harried them very well, closing them down brilliantly, but come on, they are supposed to be professionaly footballers abd should be able to deal with that.
The one thing that really stood out was the lack of movment, and slowness of thought. No one was running into space and every attack, bar the long balls was painfully drawn out, allowing the Kuwait players to fall back deep and clutter the midfield. I tell you, it was lucky I have Foxtel IQ…so I could fast forward through half the match, such was the quality of the match.
Pippinu said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:46am | Report comment
das
I just wrote on another thread that blokes like Simon, Nichols, Mullen and even Poneljak don’t measure up to an A-League team we would have assembled 18 to 24 months ago.
Once we take some recent imports out of the equation – maybe the quality across the A-League is deteriorating?
The proof was there last night – extremely poor (and this time we can’t blame the quality of the pitch or the weather).
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Honestly, the long ball to Cornthwaite was the final humiliation. The last desparate attempt of the team that is losing. It was the icing of the cake of a very poor performance. All the talk about how far Australian Football progressed and to see Robbie up front was painful and a sobering experience about how far to go. The worst thing was that it was actually one of the few times we look threatening and was the right decision by Arnie.
Brian Munich said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Maybe I’m getting long in the tooth but when I hear “Kuwait” I remember well Australia losing home and away to them in World Cup qualifying in 1977. I’m tiring mightily of the view that some Asian footballing nations are inherently weak and not deserving of respect. This premise seems to underpin the strategy that somehow a weak fifth-string selection drawn from the A-league was going to comfortably account for all comers in this preliminary stage. Thirteen-goal Archie will no doubt attest to the inherent difference between an American Samoa and Kuwait!
Greg said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:56am | Report comment
I feel for Nichols, Mullen etc. They have only played a hand full of A League games, yet are given the responsibility of a Socceroos shirt. I thought Zullo showed some promise, Nichols just looked lost. A couple of years ago the A League Socceroos side certainly had more experience and old heads.
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Pip
Yeah it was a much weaker side.
No burns, djite, jedinak, milligan, griffiths, carle, north, carney.
the asian exodus is going to make it far worst.
The only way we cna somewhat rectify this is to have regular training camps with A-League players. I’m confused why didn’t we have them. We don’t have the technique to match the opposition so we needed to be tactically organised and have team cohesion to have any chance.
Against Qatar when we didn’t need the A-league team we had training camps. When we finally need A-league players we don’t have camps.
I have a feeling that PIm wanted a training camp but the club won the club vs country debate (I remember a certain John Kosmina trying to pull players out of the camp last year. Maybe he wasn’t the only coach who felt that way) which is stupid considering the socceroos subsidised the A-league and that this Socceroos team was playing for the credibility of the entire league.
Rob said | March 6th 2009 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Jesse, “The Ogre” was, as dasilva has already mentioned, bitching about the fact that Pim didn’t buy into his “Pick me or I’ll play for Macedonia” game. Verbeek clearly wants players who will put their heart and soul into the national team shirt, not demand to be picked by threatening to play for someone else. Bugger off and play for Macedonia, then, appears to have been Pim’s reaction, and that would have been mine as well.
I wonder whether you’re right, Pip, about the quality of the A-League across the board. However, I think that youngsters like Mullen and Nichols will only get better with more experience. Simon isn’t up to standard, that’s for sure. I was stunned when I saw him in the squad. He was rubbish against Qld Roar during the two legged semi, went down under the lightest of challenges and hardly won a ball. He wasn’t much chop last night either.
Zullo is a bit of a one-trick pony with his moves to beat defenders, relying on speed more than anything else, and the Kataris are fast enough to negate most of that.
Anyhoo, Jesse, I think you’re a bit off the mark with this one. Maybe Pim’s only toned down his act because he’s sick of the media taking his comments out of context. How often in the last few days did the full quote about Archie and Alsopp get played, you know, where he praised their performances in the A-League as well as bagged their performance against Indonesia?
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Unfortunately the team are made up of “not quite there yet” and “never will be there yet”. The “not quite there yet” players will leave to go to Europe or Asia and our A-League team will weaken even further.
Slippery Jim said | March 6th 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Never to early to cut through the BS, Cosmos. I found it ironic that you thought you were ‘overanalysing’ when in fact you were ‘underanalysing’
no harm done, we all make mistakes…
Interestingly, prior to last nights defeat, Kuwait had always had a better record against us, regardless of the coach at the time:
Previous matches between Australia and Kuwait
Australia 0-2 Kuwait Sept 6, 2006 AWAY 2007 Asian Cup Qualifier
Australia 2-0 Kuwait Aug 16, 2006 HOME 2007 Asian Cup Qualifier
Australia 1-0 Kuwait Oct 4, 2000 NEUTRAL Friendly
Australia 0-0 Kuwait Sep 24, 1994 NEUTRAL Friendly
Australia 1-3 Kuwait Apr 19, 1993 NEUTRAL Friendly
Australia 1-0 Kuwait Apr 16, 1993 NEUTRAL Friendly
Australia 1-2 Kuwait Oct 16, 1977 HOME 1978 World Cup Qualifier
Australia 0-1 Kuwait Nov 19, 1977 HOME 1978 World Cup Qualifier
Played 8
Australia wins = 3
Draws = 1
Kuwait wins = 4
I actually expected us to lose that match, I tipped a 2-0 loss, so not too surprised, a good run around for the bottom dwellers in the squad. As long as we make the World Cup I don’t care too much about last nights result.
Koala Bear said | March 6th 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Pimbo, had a suit on if anyone noticed … I don’t think the HAL lads noticed that last night … And that indeed tells me that Pimbo has lost the dressing room, and will continue to destroy any self belief that the HAL lads may have left in themselves … If any .. “It was politics out there last night” .. It was a piss-ant preparation of a squad.. And Pimbo should shoulder the entire blame for last night… .. It was a DISGRACE..
~~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | March 6th 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Jes
I agree with your article.
Millster said | March 6th 2009 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Horrible Horrible match last night. I feel sorry for the people of Canberra who turned up in good numbers to see the first serious international there in ages.
Jesse – next time you see our mate Pimbo can you ask him about forward Asian Cup strategy and whether he is rethinking his use of these A-Leaguers (at least in such big numbers rather than just a few indispersed between some of the overseas guys) for such fixtures.
cosmos forever said | March 6th 2009 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Wow Slippery, saying I was speaking BS, telling me I was under-analysing and then using an emoticon to not sound like a pompous jerk. Are you sure you aren’t Pim? I’m off the Macedonia guys – have fun reading Jim’s extroadinary cut and paste stats
And yes – I will be wearing an Armani suit.
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
KB
Do you think Pim Verbeek actually wanted piss-ant preparation
i actually think there is a little bit of politics behind this defeat
Why wasn’t there training camps like there were for last year for the WCQ against Qatar.
bit of Club vs Country battle, I think.
Pim deserves a lot of blame. However we should investigate what’s the reason behind the lack of preparation and perhaps the clubs should be blame for undermining the national team as well.
John Kosmina has tried to pull players out of Pim Verbeek training camp before. Maybe there were other coaches with similar views to him.
Slippery Jim said | March 6th 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Cosmos, actually I took great care to type those stats manually, ensuring all the while to render accurately the upper and lower case letters, spacing and order of the information obtained, instead of cutting and pasting them as you are quite right, cutting and pasting would make otherwise perfectly good and on-topic stats completely irrelevent and unfactual.
By the way, if friendly matches are removed, this list is even more unflattering to Australia. Dasilva, you are right that Pim did have his part to play in our loss along with the players. He was a hopeless coach last night
jimbo said | March 6th 2009 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Jesse,
who paid for the coffees?
Let’s all kick the A-League players while they are down – they probably won’t hit back.
Who is responsible for the Socceroos woeful performance last night?
I’ve never seen such a disorganised, disinterested and unmotivated “team” of players in my life.
Has the manager/coach got something to do with it?
SFC youth team could’ve done better.
Proves my point that Pim’s motivational techniques belong in the Dutch dark ages.
I’m sure there are lots more players than the big O disgruntled with the national team set up and its manager.
You make a good point that he doesn’t have to worry about jeopardising his chances of playing for the Socceroos by being honest.
Sam said | March 6th 2009 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Jimbo
While I am not a Pim Verbeek fan myself (don’t think he is as good as people think / can be very destructive), you have to say that the players were very responsible in this loss. Also Kuwait was talking all week about how they don’t fear us, and wanted to play our top team. We never listened. We took it for granted that our young players could do a job.
What is more scary than anything is not the fact that we lost, but the way we lost. Same as the way we have been playing in general lately. The fact is we are very likely to miss out on the Asian Cup now. Remember that Oman beak Kuwait 1-0.
Koala Bear said | March 6th 2009 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Do you think Pim Verbeek actually wanted piss-ant preparation
Das,
his body language, let alone his comments about the HAL … He doesn’t really care.. he is employed to get the Roos to Sth Africa and you can see it in the man … how differently he treats the two qualifying tournaments … Maybe he feels he is being short changed and didn’t realise or know his responsibility was also the Asian Championships ..?
You can bet that Rasic, Arok, and Thompson would have shown the HAL boys more respect with better planning on how to get the HAL lads together for a better preparation time during the season … a practice match of sorts, every 2 weeks, during the season .. They would have demanded it of the FFA… and the FFA would have gladly given their support ..
~~~~~~~~~
KB
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
KB
I’m not too sure KB. We shouldn’t be that cynical. Pim Verbeek did look hurt during the interview after the defeat. He also pledge to stick with the a-league for future ACQ qualifiers even if they will be on fifa date which I think is rather questionable. http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/98005,pim-vows-to-stick-with-aleaguers.aspx
During the olympics there were hints given by Pim Verbeek that he wanted more control over the olyroos. So to say he doesn’t care is a bit too cynical
I do believe that he would have wanted more preparation with the A-league players.
Perhaps he didn’t fight tooth and nail to get his wish but to say he doesn’t care is a bit unfair.
Slippery Jim said | March 6th 2009 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
“Let’s all kick the A-League players while they are down – they probably won’t hit back”
A very fair and reasonable comment, Jimbo. A shame it doesn’t seem to apply to comments made about Graeme Arnold or Pim Verbeek.
midfield general said | March 6th 2009 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
Once the manager starts bagging his own players in public it’s a lost cause e.g. Kossie , Arnie and Vidmar (ok, Adelaide recovered to a point). You never see Wenger, Sir Alex or closer to home, Merrick or Farina doing it, and that probably contribute to their success. When you saw Tiatto going around chopping people in half Frank stood by him, and if you do that, players will run through a brick wall for you.
It’s fine to say things like `Dutch are blunt’ etc., when has that type of negative psychology worked? Maybe I’ve done too many corporate coaching seminars but the leader should be positive, affirmitive, and inclusive of all involved. What Pim has done is similar to humiliating a student in front of the class room, as far as Archie and Allsop is concerned. He will get us throught the WC qualifiers, but I don’t hold much hope for the finals if he stays
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
Midfield general
Pim’s actual comment about Archie and Danny
“I have to be honest, they were absolutely hopeless in Indonesia but the last games I have seen (in the A-League) they were very good. Maybe it was because it was Indonesia and it was a long trip. They are doing very well in their club and that’s the most important thing.”
It seems that it was a media beat up and they are quoting words out of context as pim actually complemented those two players. At worst he was naive in choosing the word “hopeless’ which is petrol for media attention when he could have used less harsh words like “played poorly” but it was hardly any malice or some negative psychology ploy.
midfield general said | March 6th 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Dasilva, you maybe right about the media beat up but surely it’s part of the manager’s job to make comments that won’t be misinterpreted and cause controversy. It was hardly a team which looked inspired and confident. Or just lacking ability, like Pim says.
Savvas Tzionis said | March 6th 2009 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
As usual, none of you have any idea about the multi-ethnicity mindset of us wogs.
This Sasha fella’s rant against Verbeek hides the fact that as a child of migrants, he has a allegiance to both Australia and his parents country of origin.
But he DARE not state that he has TWO allegiances else he will be forever accused of being not 100% Australian.
Therfore, he uses this opportunity to make out that he is only choosing FYROM because he feels offended.
Pippinu said | March 6th 2009 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
Dunno Sav – I think Og probably has a few legitimate reasons, but chief amongst them is the fact that at 29, the most he could have hoped for were a couple Kuwait-type games, and then that would have been the end of it, the closer we got to 2010.
So does he really lose much by giving Macedonia a go – not really – I say good luck to him!
To me this is a totally different issue to an 19 year old coming out of the AIS at taxpayer’s expense and then opting to represent another country – I can’t abide that sort of scenario – but I have absolutely no problem with the Ogre pursuing something like this so late in his career, and I really hope he cracks it for a few games in Europe.
Manfred the Milko said | March 6th 2009 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
James Holland “pushed” into national team due to his agent’s relationship with Arnold
Holland, Schwab and Australian licensed agent, do dirty deal with AZ Alkmaaar … Holland’s “real contracted” licensed agent to act
The corruption around Socceroo jersey allocation right now is disgusting.
Matt Simon ? puuuullllleeeeezzzzzz …….
Schwab, is trying to get FFA to sweep this under the carpet … but I believe it could be big.
Why does the PFA want to offer agent services to players ?
Why do the PFA have a staff member (who is a solicitor anyway) listed on the licensed player agents’ list
Did that “agent” sit the agent’s exam ?
Mick of Newie said | March 6th 2009 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
If I was 29 unwanted by my national team coach and had the opportunity to play Holland at the Amsterdam Arena and other internationals for another country I probably would to. The fact that Og would presumably have great affection for Macedonia probably made it an even easier decision.
Jon Davidson from Sydeny played cricket at he world cup for Canada and there is a guy called Nash from Brisbane currently playing cricket for the West Indies because I think his grandfather was born in Jamaica.
I have no issue with Og’s decision. Given a few years ago he was playing in the VPL and was unwanted by the A league he will have some great stories to tell his grand kids. Probably more interesting stories than I played Kuwait at Canberra Stadium and we lost.
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
I really have to disagree Savvas
A hyphen Australia. Ideally with second-generation migrant to have an attitude (1st generation who weren’- I rather be uncapped then represent another country. I think if you’re born here and you’re raised here and your a citizen of Australia (and not of your parents) why should you want to represent another country? If Ogre moved to macedonia and believes it’s a great place to live and migrates there then that’s another story but that’s not the case. Honestly I can understand why a H. Kewell whose family living in England, Viduka who has a house in Croatia and married a girl living there when he was playing in Croatia or Bresciano who lives in Italy would want to represent there respective country of origin. Someone who has no intentions of living in their country of origin I find it hard to take.
So do you have allegiance to the ethnicity – I thought in modern society the importance of ethnicity should be de-emphasise. What’s to be proud of the fact that your gene is less then 0.01% different to anglo Australians that cause you to have different skin tone.
Are you loyal to your culture – Ideally Australia is a multi-cultural society (although there is a trend that is becoming a dirty word). It’s also a liberal society. To be Australian is to be yourself and follow your own path whether that is more inline with the culture of heritage it doesn’t matter. The only thing that does matter is that whatever you do or what ever you behave you do it as Australians. If you speak italian, chinese, vietnamese at home, go to buddhist temple, muslim mosque, eat whatever food your culture has, have more conservative values, all of that is equally Australian as watching cricket, having a BBQ etc. That’s why I don’t buy this I’m more (insert ethnicity of parents) then Australian.
Australia is a country that mostly (there are few nationalist exceptions) encourages people to stay true to their culture. If people then turn their backs on Australia it’s taking advantage of that generosity. There are plenty other countries in the world that are monocultural who don’t encourage ethnic or cultural diversity. Why the hell should Australia be a multicultural country if the children grows up more loyal to the country of parents origin then loyal to Australia. It defeats the whole purpose of multiculturalism. Everytime I here 2nd generation migrants (whom I’m part of) complain that they are more (insert ethnicity of parents) then Australian, the more empathetic I feel about nationalist who want multiculturalism to be abandon. this type of attitude threatens the concept of multiculturalism (in which I’m a huge supporter of)
That’s why I’m pretty annoyed at people like Simunic, Didulica, Ognenovski etc
midfield general said | March 6th 2009 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
Wow this discussion is going off the tangent. I can see your point dasilva, but football is just a sport and part of entertainment industry – if people take it more seriously than that then they need to get a life. We are hypocrites if we deny footballers (or anybody else for that matter) career opportunities that come their way. You talk about AIS and tax payers money blah blah blah, but whats the difference between a banker or doctor who were educated in Aust and goes to work overseas and a footballer who went through AIS and plays for another country – it happens all the time. The way I see it : international football = exposure = playing for bigger club = bigger financial rewards. Remember these guys are finished by mid thirties if they are lucky, and one tackle away from retirement (especially if a Tiatto or a Muscat is on the same pitch). I’m spewing Sasha didn’t get a chance to pull on the Socceroo jersey because he’s probably better than anyone available for Oz maybe apart from Neill. But good luck to him, I hope playing for Macedonia opens a few doors for him
onside said | March 6th 2009 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
We have come a long way in Australia.Sure the Soccerroos were outclassed and the tactics
‘kick the ball in the air ,not along the ground in our own third ‘ were ROO BALL, (why didnt the
coaches change the ‘air ball’ tactics).But a few years ago Australia could not have mustered
a team from a national competition.We can now.One day it will be exciting ,and we will reap
the rewards of these formative years.A way off? maybe.I want it to succeed so much.We all
do.And thats the hardest thing,the weight of expectation.Put in perspective, when was the last
time a Soccerroo wore number 111.Be patient people, be patient.This is the magic of ASIA.You
get another crack at it another year. New kids,new talent. In the meantime , there will be many
more dissapointments.But we need to be proud of our A League boys giving their all even though
it was terrible . Crap game, but the dream lives.Every now and again say,”thankyou Mr Lowy “.
dasilva said | March 6th 2009 @ 6:47pm | Report comment
Midfield General
Yeah that rant was a bit off topic (allthough this topic is partially about Ogre leaving the socceroos) but I don’t like this allegiance to the country of parent origin. I don’t vote in the country of parent origin, i’m never going to pay taxes to that country, their government are not going to serve me. I owe the country of my parents origin absolutely nothing.
I guess the difference is that with International Football we don’t think of it as a job but more of representing your country.
IN the end if Ogre just sees this as purely as a career/business decision but feels deep down that he is Australian at heart then I can tolerate it. But that then raises a can of worms about what does international football really mean then.
jimbo said | March 6th 2009 @ 10:07pm | Report comment
Slippery,
I haven’t said anything about Arnie for at least of couple of weeks now.
Pimbo is based in Australia and a lot of the A-League players have been available for weeks, so why did we have only 2 days preparation for this game?
He could have started a local Socceroos train on squad a month ago and prepared the lads a lot better.
As each finals game finished he could have added players as they become available.
What’s the story Pimbo?
You want the A-League Socceroos to lose to make yourself look better?
Offcutter said | March 7th 2009 @ 2:23am | Report comment
I was close to denouncing my citizenship, that game showed how bad the A-League is.
I’ve followed football closely for 17 years and I can not say anything good about that side apart from Craig Moore.
People should praise Pim for his honest assessment of our subpar league.
Personally I dont watch football to see Archie Thompson try to take on 3 players and lose the ball EVERY FRIGGIN TIME, or to see Tom Pondeljak miss a shot from so close. The guy must do well at parties, he scored in the dreadful A-League final from a mistimed shot. But yet he misses 4 foot from goal. He’s like your mate at a party who gets on with the fat chick after spewing on the hot girl.
In other news, the Victory have resigned Nick Ward. Are you kidding me? How does this guy even get picked?
Koala Bear said | March 7th 2009 @ 7:38am | Report comment
Jimbo,
absolutely correct .. Go back to the Frank Arok and Eddie Thompson era .. they had regular train on sessions at Barton Park in the St. George Football Stadium for the Roos during the NSL season and after .. To bond, to keep the players fit, to create cohesion, and understanding in the squad … A number of practice matches were arranged with local state leagues teams in Sutherland and other areas .. even interstate .. to keep the players fit and playing together..
Thursday night showed that Pimbo has no understanding of the local landscape or how to tackle the obstacles that confront the HAL players.. He does not know how to prepare a team restricted to the local conditions… The HAL players are good players without a good manager… This is mainly why I don’t like foreign managers as they have no understanding of local conditions.. Guus the only exception.. That’s why Terry Venables failed in 1997 he had no understanding of the local players talent or worth… Choosing players that were not up to the task.. instead of the good local talent… Milan Ivanovic …
~~~~~~~~
KB
dasilva said | March 7th 2009 @ 8:52am | Report comment
KB
How can you say that Pim didn’t want training camp?
He had it last year. he has been complaining about lack of preparation for the indonesia match. We know that A-league clubs have a frosty relationship with Pim. We have clubs who tried to pull players out of Pim training camp in the past. I’m more convince of club vs country scenario rather then Pim just being lazy. I know you don’t like PIm as a coach but you are taking it way too far if you think he is too lazy to have camps. Especially when he says he prefers a club like atmosphere where he has regular contacts with players in contrast to international matches he rarely works with the players (he actually express an interest in coaching A-league clubs after his stint with the socceroos has finish funny enough)
dasilva said | March 7th 2009 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Misreading the culture
I’ll agree with that one. Funny enough Fozzie believes that Pim is more Australian then most Australian in Football as he was under misinterpretation that Australian like to tell it like it is (fozzie then say PIm is good enough to join SBS to become a football analyst)
I think Pim has misread the football culture of Australia. Football in Australia is still battle scared and has a fear that it could all go down hill and go back to the start. We see how Craig Foster get hounded for some of his criticism shows that football is generally very sensitive to criticism with a believe that if there is too much criticism, Australian football will be damage irreparably .
With that in mind Pim has to be very careful about the way he criticise the a-league and the players and showed far more diplomacy and tact that Fozzie rarely has if he wanted to avoid the same criticism. Case in point was the harmless “absolutely hopeless’ comment that was beat up by the media. Lack of understanding that media will pick up the catch line – hopeless and ignore everything else he says. Training in europe better then A-league – simple justification that beauchamp, kennedy and spiranovich are training in a very high level and that training in bundesliga is very intense and are still good enough to be picked for the socceroos instead of unnecessary comparison to the a-league would have avoided controversy. He would still be saying and doing the same thing but avoiding lines that could be beaten up by media.
That just shows inexperience handling with the media. maybe difficult getting right words as english is his second language
Towser said | March 7th 2009 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
Reading through the posts the one major point to me is the way Pimmis treatingthe 2 competitions,World Cup & Asian Cup.
This is from Mike Cockerills article in SMH today(full article below)
“No, the key difference between these two teams was the most precious commodity in international football – experience. Kuwait fielded six players who played against Australia in the 2007 campaign, and seven survivors from their 2004 Asian Cup squad. This was their first-choice selection.
By contrast, Australia handed debuts to four players, and another six were playing just their second game for their country. That’s a lot more green than gold. And much more relevant than the fact the players come from the A-League.”
So far I have stood behind Pim in our WC campaign & for this comp I still do regardless of playing style to get the end result,qualification as in this paragraph from MC.
“What is clear after Thursday night’s loss to Kuwait in Canberra is that the honeymoon period is over for Verbeek. The rumblings of discontent about style have been stymied by what has, so far, been a successful World Cup campaign. But a poor start to the Asian Cup qualifiers has changed the dynamic. Verbeek is now under more scrutiny than he has ever been, and it will be revealing to see how he reacts.”
However he is an employee of the FFA ,therefore us the fans. Without us the game is nothing. We demand respect for the National teams we support regardless of the International competition.
Forget all his quips about the standard of the A-League,this is the bottom line. In my book PIm is highly negligent in the managing of our Asian Cup campaign by putting 10 players on the park against Kuwait(in sharp contrast to them) with either no or next to none International experience.
That is when he really is rubbing my nose as a long standing Socceroo fan in the sh*t.
I & other Socceroo fans cant personally tell him that ,but as Pims employee the FFA can.
This lack of experience cannot be allowed to happen again for any team representing this country.
THe end result is that some journalists are putting the blame fairly & squarely on the shoulders of the A-League& saying “Pim told us so(see Ray Gatt article in the Australian today also below).
The fact is the truth lies somewhere in between the 2 articles.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25149386-5003460,00.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/time-has-come-for-pim-to-put-plan-b-into-action/2009/03/06/1235842658274.html
Luke W said | March 7th 2009 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
If Matt Simon and Robert Cornthwaite are the future of Australian football then I may as well give up now.
Green n Gold 2010 said | March 8th 2009 @ 11:26pm | Report comment
WHERE IS NICKY CARLE!!!!!!!!!!
sACK PIM BRING IN TROUSSIER AS WELL AS JORVAN VIERA!!!!!
sTOP THESE BLOODY BORING DUTCH COACHES….REVERT TO BRAZILLIAN!!
Midfielder said | March 8th 2009 @ 11:31pm | Report comment
IF this is True someone at the FFA maybe PIM needs a big kick up the arse.
Some say this kid is as good as KOOL at the same age this is a huge f**k UP if true
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25154613-11088,00.html
Bradden Inman poised to select Scotland over Australia
Sunday Herald Sun
Scott Walsh
March 08, 2009 12:00am
THE Socceroos appear certain to lose one of their brightest hopes – because no one from Football Federation Australia has bothered to contact him.
Only days after Australia’s embarrassing 1-0 loss to Kuwait, the Socceroos face another bungle with Adelaide 17-year-old Bradden Inman revealing he is poised to choose Scotland as his national team.
The gun Newcastle United midfielder, a substitute for the Magpies’ Premier League clash with Manchester City last month, is torn between loyalty to Australia and the opportunity to play with either Scotland or England.
His mother, Lorraine, was born in Scotland while the parents of his father were born in England, so he qualifies for all three nations.
Inman lived in Adelaide until he was 14 before shifting overseas on an under-15s scholarship with Newcastle.
He was called up to play for Scotland’s under-19s national team 10 days ago ago and says while his childhood dream was to represent Australia, he had yet to hear anything from Socceroos scouts or officials.
“I did think if I can come over to Newcastle then the next step is to try to play for Australia,” Inman said.
“But no one’s been in contact with me or anything.
“My goals are playing for Newcastle’s first team, and either playing for Scotland or Australia, maybe in a World Cup.
“At the minute playing for Scotland, it’s a lot better.
“If you travel to Australia you’ve got to sit on a plane for 24 hours and you don’t play matches that are as good.
“So, at the minute, it’s Scotland.”
Should Scotland select him as an under-21, it would lock Inman out of the Socceroos system.
Captain Random said | March 9th 2009 @ 5:06pm | Report comment
I get the feeling that young Mr. Inman is being rather “promiscuous” concerning his nationality. What, nobody talks to him and suddenly he feels Scottish? Is the prospect of plane travel daunting to him? Does he consider himself to be Australian or not? It’s not even as if Scotland are that strong a nation. They didn’t qualify for the last World Cup. They can’t even be relied upon to beat the likes of, say, Australia.
This is not a similar case to Joey Didulica performing heroics in the Champions League for Ajax and not even making Socceroo squads, as Joey was older and way more deserving of the Socceroos no.1 jersey than anyone else at the time. Bradden is still a kid. He could become the next Craig Johnston if he’s not careful (by that I mean not play for Australia and regret it later).
Having said all that, total stuff-up by the FFA. Absolutely disgraceful.
dasilva said | March 9th 2009 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
I have to agree with Captain Random
He was born in Australia and live here for 14 years, lives in England for 3 years. If he wanted to play for England then fine but I find this playing for your parents origin down right annoying. Has he ever lived in Scotland outside of family holidays.
Sure FFA stuffed up and I’m always a little annoyed that they never keep in contact and monitor the progress with players in Europe. When we select under 17, under 19 and under 21 national team, we don’t tend to select or monitor players in youth squads in europe (Dean Bouzanis?) and select mostly people in Australia. I think we lost a youth player to Wales recently due to this issue. Players have to complain to the media before FFA comes in and negotiate with the players.
Who to blame? I say Jan Versleijen the coach of the joeys and young socceroos.
I’m hoping Inman is just using the media and threatening to play for Scotland as a means to get some contacts with FFA rather then seriously considering to play for Scotland.
Sam said | March 9th 2009 @ 5:52pm | Report comment
If he is a talented attacking midfielder as I assume his, then he is someone we desperately need in the next 10 years. Seems he has a similar story to Kewell and Cahill where he went overseas at a very young age. Could turn out to be as big as Kewell or Cahill (though we don’t know yet). I’m sure if we qualify for the next World Cup we could somehow convince him to play for us. He could be the player we have been looking for.
jimbo said | March 9th 2009 @ 10:13pm | Report comment
Green and Gold 2010.
Couldn’t agree more mate.
dasilva said | March 9th 2009 @ 10:44pm | Report comment
Well I actually agree with Green and Gold that Nicky Carle really should have been selected for the Kuwait qualifiers.
Midfielder said | March 9th 2009 @ 10:56pm | Report comment
KB
I hope you see this have a look at the footage of old South Melbourne NSL goals on this link, and compare them with the A League goals of today.
http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=3374939
Midfielder said | March 9th 2009 @ 10:57pm | Report comment
Das & Sam
IMO just cap him against Ireland
jimbo said | March 9th 2009 @ 11:25pm | Report comment
Mid,
some great memories there and some great goals.
Ange Posticoglou, Paul Trimboli and Gary Van Egmond in their prime. Priceless.
dasilva said | March 10th 2009 @ 1:49am | Report comment
I think Inman has to earn his full senior cap. Get Jan Versleijen to call Inman and Dean Bouzanis (who declared that he wants to be available for the young socceroos) the next time the young socceroos play and get him to assess them. Players who have one game even for an EPL club doesn’t necessarily mean we should rushed to cap the player.
Also nice video highlights there Mid