By Greg Russell
May 13th 2009 @ 1:23am
Related coverage
How can one tell a great five-eighth in the making?
Waratahs Kurtley Beale is taken in a Hurricanes tackle in the Super 14 rugby match at Westpac Stadium, Wellington, New Zealand, Saturday, Feb. 14, 2009. (AAP Images/NZPA, Ross Setford)
When Bob Dwyer was asked what he thought of the five-eighth of the 2005 Australian Schoolboys rugby team, he quipped “that backup five-eighth looks pretty good.” Dwyer was talking about Quade Cooper. The player he was asked about was Kurtley Beale.
The arrival of Beale, the Aboriginal Wunderkind from Sydney’s western suburbs, via St Joseph’s College, Hunter’s Hill, had been long heralded. Given the observation of Dwyer and others, could it be that Australian rugby was about to get two saviours for the price of one?
The reality hasn’t been straightforward.
There is no doubt that both Beale and Cooper are prodigiously talented and remain considerably interesting prospects. However, I like to say that Cooper is a reincarnation of Carlos Spencer, except that where King Carlos was inconsistent from match to match, Cooper seems to be inconsistent from moment to moment within the one match. Quite literally, he can be dazzlingly brilliant one instant and then awful the next.
Beale also has consistency problems, but his bigger issues are his defence and his lack of physical presence.
Despite these differences, the end result is really much the same: both players struggle to fulfill the classic five-eighth’s role of being able to control a game.
It was therefore a pleasant surprise to see a young kid step out of the shadows and do just this for the Brumbies last weekend.
Of course, those who follow these things closely knew of Matt Toomua before his quality performance against the Blues. It’s not just any player who goes straight from school into the squad of the Brumbies, and then onto their bench (as he did in 2008).
And one should point out that Toomua’s Australian Schoolboys achieved something in 2007 that Beale and Cooper were not able to: they beat New Zealand Schoolboys for the first time since 1997, when a certain Craig Wing and Ryan Cross were the stars of the show.
Indeed, scouts were adamant that the 2007 crop were the best batch of Australian schoolboy rugby union players to emerge in the past decade, with one NRL scout saying of the outside back prospects: “There’s half a dozen who can’t miss.”
One of these, Joseph Tomane, is already a starting player for the Melbourne Storm. But the rest seem to have stayed in rugby, with players like Rob Horne (Waratahs), James O’Connor (Force) and Afusipa Taumoepeau (Brumbies) already having made marks at the top level.
Now we welcome Toomua.
One may contrast the quiet way he has been brought along with all the fanfare surrounding Beale and Cooper. It seems clear to me that their development has suffered from all the attention and weight of expectation.
Of course, it’s very early days yet for Toomua.
But there was a maturity and all-round quality about his performance that we have yet to see from Beale and Cooper. Take Toomua’s dropped goal, for example.
Johnny Wilkinson could hardly have bettered the deliberate planning and clinical execution. As we all know, Wilkinson wasn’t bad at controlling a game.
But perhaps one might better compare Toomua’s understated arrival and composed performance against the Blues with the young Dan Carter. It’s worth remembering that the player who has gone on to become the world’s best rugby player was not considered good enough to make the New Zealand Schoolboys team (trivia question: who kept him out?).
Carter progressed straight to senior ranks in Canterbury, and no matter where he was positioned or whom he came up against, observers kept being struck by the fact that he got the job done, that he didn’t make mistakes, and that he had no weaknesses.
Already one can say that Toomua is more along these lines than Beale or Cooper ever will be.
What are the lessons in all this?
That schoolboy acclaim is far from a sure guide of adult success? That with Toomua at the helm, the Brumbies will beat the Chiefs this weekend?
That with so much young talent coming through, Robbie Deans has picked a great time to become Wallaby coach?
That Queensland are the authors of their own demise by not being able to hang onto their prodigiously talented schoolboy stars (O’Connor, Toomua and David Pocock)?
That there is even more to come from the 2008 Australian Schoolboys, who went one better than the 2007 crop by becoming the first ever team to win on Kiwi soil? That Australian rugby is on the threshold of another era like the early 1980s, when the quality of the backs far exceeds that of the forwards? (notice that almost all of these emerging stars are backs).
I don’t know.
But what I can do is agree with the rest of what Dywer said in 2005: “Things look fantastic.”
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markcxd said | May 13th 2009 @ 5:13am | Report comment
Greg, good article. How true it is of the difference in the development of the three players. Secondly, you cant ask a trivia question like that ! It means its going to be anoying me for ages and therefore ill be searching google for hours trying to find the answer.
Rabbitz said | May 13th 2009 @ 6:52am | Report comment
Does Toouma also sport a ridiculous hairdo? It seems to me that Beale and Cooper are both over-rated and under-performing. And both sport strange hair. I am not suggesting this is a Sampsonesque thing, I believe that they both believe the hype that the media pundits have spouted about them and it shows in their belief that they can get away with looking like a weirdo. Remember Henjak? Where is he now?
The problem with promoting children (yes I mean children) with potential and giving them all the adjulation that entails means that they are unable to handle it and in the long run it reflects in their poor results. It also gives them a falsely inflated ego – thus the hairdo’s.
This does not just apply to Rugby, have a good hard look at the other codes and you will see the same issues, Four Corners anyone?
LeftArmSpinner said | May 13th 2009 @ 7:14am | Report comment
Greg, good article. Beale was done no favours being thrown into the deep end in his first season, and without a backs coach. It is a truly golden era that we are entering. Bring it and the 5th Aust. Super rugby team……….
Hoy said | May 13th 2009 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Maybe it is the way the first two were brought through the rugby from schools straight to super? Toomua(?) was served an albeit small apprenticeship before starting.
That might be the key. Instead of all these so called superstars being walk up starts, I am sure it wouldn’t hurt them to sit and watch for a while. But then, with the young ones these days, they want all they (think they) deserve, and if they don’t start, or are criticised at all for their game, they seem to feel victimised, and leave in a huff to another group who will give them everything they (think they) deserve.
Wtiness half the players dropped from first grade for poor showings in league. They all ask for releases, rather than trying to get back into first grade and proving they can play.
Gits came through club, and I remember watching him and Henjak when they were playing for the Vikings. I thought Henjak’s hair was the most rediculous thing I had ever seen, but I thought he caught my eye more so that Gits as a player. Gits was picked from that team straight to the Wallabies tour at the end of that year, before playing super rugby. But I guess he had a year of grade underneath him.
Larkham had a few years in obscurity before being a superstar and savoiur of the Wallers. Maybe club rugby is the go. Put these superstar youngsters in club rugby and make them control older angrier men in club rugby and see if they can do it, before piling on the plaudits.
Greg Russell said | May 13th 2009 @ 8:34am | Report comment
I would just like to clarify that I do not know the answer to my ‘trivia’ question about who kept Dan Carter out of the NZ Schoolboys … like others, I would be genuinely interested in knowing!
Andrew B said | May 13th 2009 @ 9:04am | Report comment
I don’t disagree that Toomua is a good prospect, but are we comparing one great performance with 2 seasons of ups & downs? Cooper & Beale have both been masterful at times, poor at others. Will you be saying the same thing about Toomua after he has some more game time, and the opertunity to fail?
Terry Kidd said | May 13th 2009 @ 9:15am | Report comment
I’m guessing that Dan Carter would have been schoolboys approx 1998-99? If thats the case would Aaron Mauger have been the player that kept him out?
Sam, please help !!!! If anyone on this site knows the answer then I’m betting it will be Sam.
Brett McKay said | May 13th 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
yep, another great read Greg. Toomua has always looked the goods in his short cameos, but I think he’s surprised even the harshest critics with how he’s improved with three starts under his belt.
It’s a fair comment that he’s been able to almost ’sneak’ into the liemlight, and I think that has plenty to do with how the Brumbies bring in the youngsters. For Toomua, just like Lealiifano, Giteau, and even Larkham before them all, they were able to surround these talented kids with experience, and then just told them to play. If a young kid can be standing at 10 or 12 and look around to see the likes of Gregan, Knox, Howard, and then Larkham himself and Mortlock, and even now with the likes of Gerrard, Fairbanks and Ashley-Cooper, it’s a pretty good way to come through.
Toomua and Lealiifano have also had the advantage of being practically unknown in comparison to the hype that preceeded both Cooper and Beale. This time last year Toomua was playing in club land, and is probably bracing himself to return there next month. There’s no doubt that’s helping with his development, as Hoy suggests.
Mentioning Fairbanks, Toomua’s biggest test – apart from lining up against the likely All Black first-five – will be not having Fairbanks outside him this weekend. Tyronne Smith reminds me a lot of Timana Tahu, both have the ability to play inside- but are better suited to outside-centre.
It’ll be interesting to see how the Brumbies balance Giteau and the two young bucks next year. If the rumours of Fairbanks going to Japan are true (and I hope it’s not the case, because he’s back to his best again), then perhaps they’ll play one of the youngsters at 12 and the other on the bench. I’m also thinking that Lealiifano, being Melbourne raised, may well become a target for the new team for 2011.
Spiro Zavos said | May 13th 2009 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Greg has got to the heart of the matter with this interesting analysis of the mature five-eights play of Matt Toomau. The point about Kurtley Beale and Quade Cooper is that they overplay their hand too much, try to do too much, as a first five-eighths. Absolutely brilliant running and stepping five-eighths, who can also control a game, are a thing of the long past days of the Welsh wizards in the 1950s.
Every great five-eighths in modern times (with one exception, Stephen Larkham), Barry John, Mark Ella, Hugo Porta, Grant Fox, Jonny Wilkinson and Daniel Carter have been controllers of the game. Of course they could make breaks. But generally the running was after several phases or the result of positioning themselves to break when play has fractured.
It is called ‘underplaying’ their hand. Robbie Deans has been particularly good at coaching this into his five-eighths. The Quade Cooper playing for the Wallabies is a different and more effective beast than the Quade Cooper playing like a headless chook for the Reds.
This is the reason why I believe Deans will play Berrick Barnes at what New Zealanders call first five-eighths this season with Matt Giteau at second five-eighths. Personally I’d like to see Giteau playing as a winger in the Shane Williams style and have James O’Connor playing outside Barnes.
I don’t think it’s been an accident that the Hurricanes, for instance, have played more effective rugby since Willie Ripia, a five-eighths who underplays his hand while kicking and passing with great effective, has been put into the key controlling position.
The place for the stepper and brilliant individualists is second five-eighths, in my view. I once tried to convince John Hart when he was the All Black coach that this is where Carlos Spencer should be played. Hart dismissed my argument. But i reckon I was right, as results in big matches showed where Spencer could not think his way out of problems and difficulties in the way the great five-eighths can.
So it will be interesting to see what the Brumbies do with Toomua when Giteau arrives next year.
If Greg is right, and I think he is totallt correct in my view, then they’ll play Giteau outside Toomua.
Conor said | May 13th 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Andrew B,
with you mate,
Toomua had a good game but thats one, beale and cooper who struggle at times have stilll put in great performances for their clubs at some point, or in coopers case even for the wallabies on last years end of season tour and in the first 4 rounds of this season everyone was saying how far cooper had came. And beale was great last year for the tahs especially in the final before he was injured.
I reckon you just cant judge such a young player so early on in their careers.
IronAwe said | May 13th 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment
I have to agree with Spirro here. Giteau’s best games were at the start of his career where he played at inside centre. He had an amazing ability to see gaps before they were there, and put himself through, much like Rob Egerton. (What a short but sweet career that was!) The problem is after larkham left we didn’t have anyone to fill those shoes and Giteau was dropped in the slot. He’s a great No.10, but he is a brilliant inside centre. However, Giteau is still the best Australian No.10 currently, and we don’t really have much choice but to play him there.
stillmissit said | May 13th 2009 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Guys I disagree with your one game hold your powder claims. This Toomua has time and a certain calmness that all great 5/8ths have. The things that will change are decision making and controll of the back line.
I ruthlessly predict that this kid will be one of the all time great 5/8ths based on one game.
Working Class Rugger said | May 13th 2009 @ 11:53am | Report comment
The guy who kept Carter out of the NZ Schoolboy’s It’s a kiwi cricketer isn’t it. Brendan McCullum I think.
Jerry said | May 13th 2009 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
Terry – Dan Carter would only have been 16 in 98, so it wouldn’t be Mauger keeping him out. I did wonder if Stephen Donald might have as I know he was an age group star but he’s about 18 months younger than Carter so it wouldn’t have been him either.
Who Needs Melon said | May 13th 2009 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
AndrewB and Conor: Spot on. Let’s not extrapolate too much out of a good game or two and shift our search for the new saviour from Beale/Cooper to Toomua.
Spiro: I agree with everything you’ve said APART from the implication that Larkham wasn’t a “controller of the game”. I think, as well as being other things, he was also a very good controller of the game. And also very good at underplaying his hand and so knowing WHEN to try to do something himself. Or have I misread this implication?
Another thing this whole discussion highlights for me is the that we DO have a yawning chasm in this country between Super rugby and the next level down. Taking a guy from club or schoolboy rugby and throwing them into the front line of Super rugby is going to do harm far more often than it is going to do good. ESPECIALLY (as Bretty McKay has said) when you don’t surround them with experienced mentors to support them.
ohtani's jacket said | May 13th 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Answer: You wait a few years and see what happens.
I can’t understand Australian thinking sometimes. Why do you hype schoolboys so much? Most New Zealanders are blissfully unaware of who’s in the NZ schoolboys side or even the under-21s, which are now the under-20s. I suppose this Aussie hoopla goes back to the Australian School Boy’s tour of ‘77-78. Perhaps we should call it the “Ella Complex.”
Interesting enough, I was reading an article about NZ schoolboy development the other day and some criticism of it —
http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/features/786307/One-track-development
You’ve gotta let these guys fly under the radar. What happens if Toomua has a bad game against the Chiefs this week? Donald just got done showing up Ripia, who some Kiwis were saying should be a bolter. Give it time.
ohtani's jacket said | May 13th 2009 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
Brendan McCullum played first five for a South Island secondary schools team, where Carter came off the bench to play wing. As far as I’m aware, the only national team Carter made before the All Blacks was the New Zealand Under 21 side in 2002.
katzilla said | May 13th 2009 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
Without a doubt it was Luke McCalister. Although towards the end of the 2002 season Dan Carter got more game time as McCalister moved towards the centres.
Good article, and the rise of Toomua can only mean good things for Australian rugby.
Spiro makes a good point regarding the Canes and Ripia, which will be highly relevant to Australian rugby in the coming years.
Ripia doesn’t have the flashy show but does the basics right as does Toomua, because of this limitation in the excitement area he tends to ship it more to the players outside him and lets them do the damage which is how it should be when you have 4 All Blacks outside you. With so much Talent coming through in backline stocks Australia will be better served be a 5/8 that puts it in the hands of those more able to make inroads out wide. Probably one of the reasons why Merhts was picked over King Carlos for so long.
As far as Deans goes, Australia have picked the perfect time to have him. Not so much a coach as a Talent scout, the high level depth when he leaves his post in Australia will be the best its ever been.
Working Class Rugger said | May 13th 2009 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
I remember last summer whilst watching Aus vs NZ in the cricket and one of the kiwi commentator mentioned that McCullum kept Carter out of a side. It might have only been the school side.
Bulldog said | May 13th 2009 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
If you want to see a great 5/8th in the making then I suggest you have a look at James O’Connor. This kid is a genuine freak and will surpass all others to become one of the greatest players in OZ rugby history. At 18 he is head and shoulders better than Giteau was at the same age….
If you want to know the model on how to develop a young 5/8 then just look to the Kiwi’s such as Robbie Deans and the Crusaders (Dan Carter) & John Mitchell and the Force (James O’Connor). Bring them into the team at inside centre or fullback outside a geniune 5/8 (ie. Carter & Mertens) and allow them to develop rather than thrusting them into the position and hoping for miracles (ie. Beale). In business they call it succession planning – a concept that the OZ based rugby coaching and selector group are yet to grasp. Thank God we have Robbie now.
Working Class Rugger said | May 13th 2009 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Bulldog
Too true. Look at Beale last two performances since he was reinstated in the starting line up at 12. Much improved. Young players need time to get the bearings. Quade Cooper starting to show some worrying cracks without Barnes around to take alot of the pressure off him. a move to inside centre would probably be benficial for him also.
Working Class Rugger said | May 13th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
With O’Connor with his talent and still huge potential we may be seeing the beginnings of Rugby (In Aus at least) next Superstar. If he goes to the U20’s WC I suspect he’ll carve them up.
Who Needs Melon said | May 13th 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
Bulldog! WCR! Shhhh!!!
O’Connor “will surpass all others to become one of the greatest players in OZ rugby history”!
PLEASE let’s not overinflate expectations for yet another player… even if it IS true.
Rob said | May 13th 2009 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
The system or whatever you want to call it in Aust.rugby encourages coaches to ” kill the goose that laid the golden egg.” In other words the coaches at maybe club and certainly s14 level are under so much pressure to perform they won’t take a long term view of a players career. They want results and they want them now . So talented but immature players are thrown to the wolves in the hope of instant success. If those players were put on contract but held back to gain more experience then they would be better off for it in the long term. And that is the key point . We rarely mention long term goals and while we always hear words such as talent and potential we rarely hear the word maturity. And some of these players while having heaps of talent haven’t matured yet , It is a risk that those players careers could end prematurely because of poor management.
Bulldog said | May 13th 2009 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
Who Needs Melon – I understand your concern. It is now up to the powers that be to make sure he is nurtured properly and not damaged in the process. As a Force supporter I would like to see him stay in WA however I hope that when he makes a decision on whether he goes or stays that he chooses the best development option regardless of the $’s and hype that are being thrust at him in the process.
Harry said | May 13th 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Great comments and points made here but I agree mostly with my favourite Aussie-bater OJ who rightly mocks our obsession with schoolboy superstars automatically becoming the worlds best player ever in their first year or two out of school. In Beale and Cooper’s case this was exacerbated by their agents milking them for all they could in their first year out of school – I recall a couple of ludicrous stunts eg. Cooper’s agent wrote a letter to Knuckles (conveniently leaked to the sycophantic and foolish rugby journalist who gave it the airplay the agent wanted) saying Cooper needed to be picked now for the Wallabies (this was 2007) and paid a Giteau-like salary otherwise he was of to league. Ridiculous and has done his player no good at all.
History lesson – even the great Mark Ella struggled to find his feet in senior rugby after graduating from schoolboy rugby. I can recall Ella getting his arz absolutely handed to him on a plate at Ballymore by Paul McLean and the very strong Qld team circa 1979 or 80 for instance, a few of the UK touring teams (Ireland or Scotland) and of course our provincial friends from NZ.
Re Fairbanks he is precisely the sort of player who should be at the Reds (yet another Qlder who we have missed out on,up to circa 2000 these players would generally stick to home).
Good luck for Toomua anyway. But after the S14 he can then play the U20 tournament then go back to club rugby (Easts – in Brisbane of course!) for another few months of learning the senior game – quietly and without hype.
Can’t resist adding wouldn’t it be great if he could play in the ARC as well at season’s end. Which reminds me Site Boss – when is JON going to get back to us with answers to our questions of last week?
Jerry said | May 13th 2009 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Luke McAlister played for the NZ Secondary Schools in 2002 by which time Dan Carter was 20 years old, so unless Dan failed 5th form a couple of times, he’s not the guy either. McCullum is the right age, but I’ve only ever heard of him keeping Carter out of the South Island side, not the NZ side. Another possibility is Jimmy Gopperth who was in the Secondary Schools side in 2001.
Campbell Watts said | May 13th 2009 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
Think both Beale and Cooper have missed their opportunity to shine for Deans to be honest.
Too much mercurial talent at a young age can cause problems I think once these players hit the big league. If their work ethic isn’t 100% there can be a tendency to rest on their natural talent a bit too much – a tactic that has always worked well at the schoolboy level for these type of players.
Once the chips are down and they realise it’s a lot harder at S14 level these type of players can plateau and not achieve to the levels predicted for them at a younger age. I look at Beale’s lack of effort over the off-season and the resultant weight problem he had at the start of the season as an example.
O’Connor may have pipped them both at the post for a Wallabies spot come the start of the tri-nations!
Working Class Rugger said | May 13th 2009 @ 4:37pm | Report comment
Campbell
I have to disagree. Neither Beale or Cooper are gone. In Beale’s case he was the golden boys thrust int the limelight before he was ready. Even the Ella’s played club Rugby. Beale needed a year or so. It didn’t help that there wasn’t a class 5/8 with experience at the Tahs. Thats probably what has been O’Connor great advantage. So many teams worry about the class and skill of Giteau and f orget about him. Only to be punished during the game. Beale has shown glimpses of what he is capable of the past couple of weeks and should stay at inside centre next season before moving back into 5/8 in 2011.
Cooper has been struggling while Barnes has been out. Barnes is a very good player and stabilises Cooper’s flair. Without him Cooper has been struggling to control games. He should really be playing at 12 also. Toomua will next be gifted the time and space to develop with the return of Giteau. He too should make the move to 12. Then Andy friend will have the envious position having to find places for Tyrone Smith who has had a very solid year and Gene Fairbanks.
Working Class Rugger said | May 13th 2009 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
The guy I feel for is Christian Leilifano. Has shown potential but has had a indifferent season. Probably has found himself falling from 1st choice 5/8 to 2nd and all of the sudden to 3rd.
Campbell Watts said | May 13th 2009 @ 6:05pm | Report comment
WCR
Wasn’t inferring they are gone for good – just that they have missed their chance for selection in the early season tests. I should have been clearer.
Believe Cooper will make future squads as he has shown he can shine in the Wallaby environment, but have my doubts about Beale. I suspect Deans would not look kindly on Beale’s over-all attitude. I believe he would select more deserving people – say less skilled but better work ethic/team players.
Working Class Rugger said | May 13th 2009 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
I think people are being far too harsh with Beale. He’s never been managed properly. McKenzie sent him in far too early and Hickey just doesn’t know what he’s doing.
Jets said | May 13th 2009 @ 7:16pm | Report comment
It should be mentioned that at the 2006 Australian Schoolboy championships Queensland II took out the title. NSW I had Beale at 5/8, QLD I had Cooper and QLD II had a grade 11 kid named Matt Toomua who organised his team with great skill.
I watched a fair bit of Cooper and Toomua as schoolboy players and they were both wonderful to watch. Cooper was brilliant and could win a game on his own while Toomua would always get the best out of the players around him. I hope that Toomua is not looked at as a player who must be rushed in before the next RWC but given time to grow and develop with the U20’s for the next 2 years and with the Brumbies after that he could be added to an extended Wallaby squad if he is developing well.
I also think Cooper and Beale will be Wallabies. I have always thought Cooper would be best played at 15 while Beale is growing into a 12.
I must say that Qld GPS rugby over the last few years has been blessed with some great talent. Cooper, Toomua and O’Connor just to name a few. While the Reds have not been doing great on the scoreboard the QRU development programs have been working.
True Tah said | May 13th 2009 @ 7:44pm | Report comment
Jets the problem with the QRU development program is that it is working for the Brumbies and Force, and sadly not the Reds.
What is wrong with the Reds recruitment – they lose these sort of players, and have to recruit a bunch of Kiwi and NSW hasbeens???
Knives Out said | May 13th 2009 @ 8:19pm | Report comment
‘It is a truly golden era that we are entering. Bring it and the 5th Aust. Super rugby team……….’
I don’t know what you mean, Ohtani. I think you’re perpetuating an inaccurate stereotype.
katzilla said | May 13th 2009 @ 9:17pm | Report comment
Jerry – They were both in 20s in 2002 i think. But both would have hit End of School at the same time, and McAlister definately was a School boy rep first five. If im wrong then it is by a year at most. I know that Carter had to bench it for a bit in the 20s for McAlister
ohtani's jacket said | May 13th 2009 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
In 2002, McAlister made the following rep teams:
New Zealand Colts
New Zealand Under 19
New Zealand Secondary Schools
North Harbour RFU
Jerry said | May 14th 2009 @ 6:46am | Report comment
I’m not saying Luke didn’t play 10 for the Secondary Schools team, I’m saying he played for that team after Carter would have already left school. Luke may have kept Dan on the bench for the Colts though. Gopperth was the 10 for the Secondary Schools in 2001 (even though he’s only a couple of months older than Luke) and is probably the guy who was ahead of Carter.
Terry Kidd said | May 14th 2009 @ 7:46am | Report comment
Here are another couple of great trivia questions:
Who stuck the ‘ball up the jumper’ in a great move that lead to a try?
What game was it and when?
What was the final score?
How many tries did that player later score in a Bledisloe test?
Jerry said | May 14th 2009 @ 7:49am | Report comment
Based on your last question, I’m gonna guess it was Greg Cornelson who of course scored 4 tries for the Wallabies in 78. No idea when he may have done the up the jumper move though.
Jameswm said | May 14th 2009 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Wasn’t it when playing for a country team?
Frank said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:32am | Report comment
Toomua is something special, the next Dan Carter no doubt……never over plays his hand…..a true 5/8……Tip, Gitz to go back to inside centre next year….
The brumbies are looking hot next year, what are the odds????, it would sure be a better bet than Firepower…….also what are they to do with all the emerging talent + veterans + O’Connor……( James is definitely going to leave the Force, the Brumbies will be his first pick no doubt and why not)
With Gitz, Leafano, Toomua, Smith, Mortlock, Cooper, and potentially O’connor……. shit hot…..and the forward pack aren’t bad either
So, why does the Brumbies program attract and keep so many high profile players??? As a footballer, why would you give up a beach life for a cold and bitter Winter in the Nations Capital……??????
Further, all brumbies players seem so loyal to the program and there fellow players…..no one seems to want to run away to another team…..Why?????
I can only think of 2 second rowers who have turned there back and fled to NSW
is it the coach…..
Is it because they bread more wallabies than any other province……???
Is there less internal politics and media scrutiny?????
Please tell me the secret ingredient, it might save mighty Western force from an impending death…
Terry Kidd said | May 14th 2009 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
Jerry and Jameswn are getting close. It was Greg Cornelson in a NSW City v NSW Country match in 1978. It was Greg Cornelsen who scored 4 tries in a Bledisloe test. The final answer is needed …. what was the final score in that City v Country game? A hint … it was close, the ball up the jumper trick and the try made the difference …. any takers?
katzilla said | May 14th 2009 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
‘As a footballer, why would you give up a beach life for a cold and bitter Winter in the Nations Capital……??????’
Frank, probably for two reasons, Australias most successful team so the best chance of winning a title.
And also because people in the ACT actually give a damn about the rugby.
Best ground i’ve watched super 14 at, AND THE BAR STAYED OPEN AFTER THE GAME!!!!
Dan the Main Man said | May 14th 2009 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
All this talk of over-hyped schoolboy players reminds me of the mid 90s when Elton Flatley started being picked in the Nudgee 1st XV in grade 9 (he must have only been about 14!!). That a 14yo could be picked at five-eighth in what was, at the time, the strongest schoolboy team in australia, was amazing. Yet, Flatley was never quite able to live up to the expectations. Sure, he was picked for QLD straight out of school, and was in the Australian team within 2-3 yrs but he never really dominated as the “14yo wunderkind” tag might have implied. Perhaps its because he got stuck behind Larkham or perhaps the constant niggling inuries never allowed him to get his game on properly.
Matt said | May 14th 2009 @ 7:41pm | Report comment
Being a rep coach at Under 20’s level I get to see the impact/influence the NRL has on many young players. The fact that it is so readily available on prime time, free to air TV means young players are exposed to NRL style play and habits much more than they are to rugby. It’s not hard to see where Beale and Cooper get alot of their influences from, the extravagant sidesteps, cute kicks, overplaying their hands and poor options.
Whilst they are both obviously talented I agree that they both were rushed prematurely into playmaking roles with their respective provinces before they had proven their mettle.
As for the crop of Wallabies and the makeup of the side I agree Barnes should take the #10 shirt with Guiteau outside him in #12. Guiteau, fantastic player he is, still made some odd choices at first reciever last season…choices that a composed flyhalf like Barnes would never have made. For what it is worth I don’t think Stirling Mortlock will make the side at #13…Ryan Cross with his beautiful running lines and ability to find the tryline is in better form and will only get better. Cross and Mortlock play the same position in remarkably different ways…Mortlock is the more direct, hard in contact type while Cross proves the addage that “rugby is a contact game made all the easier when you don’t make contact” every time he runs those wonderful outside lines and cruises into open space.
Personally, I can’t wait for the international series to start…It’s a very exciting time for Australian rugby, plenty of talent to choose from and a great coach who will be better for having his first year out of the way.
Frank O'Keeffe said | May 14th 2009 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
I never understood the Mark Ella v Curtley Beale comparison. Mark Ella was all about working without space, sucking in defenders, and most importantly providing his outside backs with opportunities. Curtley Beale, to me, isn’t a constructive five-eighth. He enjoys attacking the advantage line with the ball in hand, like Mark Ella, but quite often he has a go himself way too often. Some of Rod Kafer’s delightful analysis has revealed several instances this season where Beale could have, and should have, offloaded the ball in many instances where better scoring possibilities were available out wide. Beale just isn’t a constructive player.
Kafer did a great job at showing how Beale is also struggling with long passes, which is a worry since Beale’s been around for a few seasons now. Cooper, while he’s been inconsistent, doesn’t have the same problem.
I remember thinking last year that Beale would improve and then maybe one day challenge for the wallaby no. 10. I have to say he’s pretty far from it right now.
Frank O'Keeffe said | May 14th 2009 @ 8:07pm | Report comment
I forgot to add, there was a shocking statistic that existed mid-season this year. The Waratah’s, from about 70-80 set pieces, hadn’t gotten the ball out to their wings once!
Greg Russell said | May 14th 2009 @ 10:27pm | Report comment
Backing up Matt’s point about the influence of NRL, here’s another snippet from the 2005 article from which I took the quote by Dwyer (remember this is Beale talking as a schoolboy):
“[Beale] said his big left- and right-foot steps were moves taken from his rugby league heroes. “I like a lot of guys from rugby league,” said Beale, naming Matt Bowen, Benji Marshall and Sonny Bill Williams.”
DaniE said | May 14th 2009 @ 11:50pm | Report comment
Terry, Country came away with the game 22-20 over City… the game would have been a cracker – thankfullly there is great footage of the up the jumper try!
Terry Kidd said | May 15th 2009 @ 5:17am | Report comment
DaniE you are quite correct. The game was a cracker. I watched it on ABC TV at the time with I think Trevor Allen calling it. At the time I was playing League and the next year joined the Army, from there I have played rugby and loved it. That game was the catalyst that got me thinking about and watching rugby …. maybe why it sticks in my mind.
Lindommer said | May 27th 2009 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Terry Kidd: “Jerry and Jameswn are getting close. It was Greg Cornelson in a NSW City v NSW Country match in 1978.”
I don’t know what game your were at Terry, but it wasn’t NSW City v NSW Country, that was at Orange last week. Rugby used to play Sydney v NSW Country (which in those days included ACT). The game in question was at T G Millner Field in 1975, well before Cornelsen moved to Queensland. Country repeated the ruse against a visiting England later that year leading to the Poms compainig to the IRFU and a ban on “up-the-jumper” plays.