By Janex -
July 2nd 2009 @ 1:42am
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Socceroos come from the land Dutch Under
Socceroo's coach Pim Verbeek chats with Harry Kewell during a training session at ANZ Stadium, Sydney, Thursday, June 19, 2008. The Socceroo's take on China in a World Cup qualifying match this Sunday, June 22. AAP Image/Dean Lewins
A recent article out of the Netherlands named Dutch football as the most successful of the past forty years. With Verbeek and Henk Duut (ex Feyenoord) leading Australia to another World Cup, the Dutch school must be close to being declared Holy Down Under.
Verbeek: “It’s just great. We’ve started this series in February 2008 and obviously, playing these games is a real challenge on the body for the players from Europe with 22 hours plane flights, 7 to 10 hours time difference, and they never complained. Their mental attitude is top notch.
“They’re a tight team and they know exactly what they want.”
The admiration is reciprocated.
The big names in the team, Kewell, Cahill and Neill are very happy with their Dutch coach. They did have to Google him at first when he was appointed, but now they can’t say enough positive things about him.
After securing the ticket to the FIFA World Cup tournament in Qatar, Everton star Tim Cahill said: “I love working under this coach. You know exactly what you get on the pitch and off. You can discuss anything with him, for me that’s crucial and most players feel this way.”
“It was different under Guus. Nothing against him, he’s respected all over the world and rightly so, but I wasn’t always happy.”
A remarkable quote. Wasn’t it Guus Hiddink who gave Australia their confidence?
Pim Verbeek can answer that question. He and Hiddink worked together for South Korea in 2002 and reached the semi finals at 2002 FIFA World Cup tournament.
“Guus is able to align and fine tune everything quickly and gets a result, that’s his speciality. He controls the management of the games and understands how to work the players and media.”
Verbeek smiles when he says that, he‘s still in touch with his former boss who immediately sent his congratulations via a text message.
“I learned a lot from him and from Dick Advocaat. The main thing is, be who you are. This will be my first World Cup tournament as a head coach and I look forward to it, however I realize very well that I can do this thanks to the people I work with.”
One of those people is former Feyenoord defender and Fortuna assistant coach Henk Duut: “I worked with Henk before. He’s my left and right hand man, both in tactical decisions as in training build up and he’s a great scout, too.”
Duut worked with Verbeek for the Dutch Antilles and worked at Feyenoord under Ruud Gullit and Erwin Koeman. Duut highly enjoys working and living in Australia. “You can see the team come together and that’s the best thing about this job.
“I think both myself and my buddy Mario Been never dreamed of becoming a coach, but being able to move these processes along is just great. Also I live in one of the world’s prettiest spots, so what more can I ask.”
The name Feyenoord is mentioned: “Unbelievable that they never contact me, they have my number, there’s a lot of talent here.
“Tactically, maybe not that good, but still a lot to work with but they’re strong mentally and physically and love to learn and work hard, most talents are now scouted by Twente and AZ, and it’s weird because Brett Emerton and Holman started their European careers at Feyenoord.”
The Football Director of the Australian Football Federation is Dutch as well. Han Berger, a former coach of Utrecht and Groningen, took over from Rob Baan and is responsible for the strategic planning: “I work on Baan’s foundations. The local competition needs to be stronger, but now there are more and more players like Culina returning, so that’s good.
“The facilities need to be upgraded and we need to work on the youth competitions and the youth selections. In Canberra, Jan Versleijen is working with the talented youth, we are all going to play 4-3-3, all following the Dutch school.”
Money is not the problem in Australia, but the “attitude” is: “Soccer, they call it still on the streets. There’s still a huge English culture apparent (cricket, rugby) and AFL is number one sport, but there are lots of scandals and bad stuff happening there so most parents would love their kids to play football and sponsors turn away from these sports.”
Therefore, the performance and results of the national team are essential, and Australia is also bidding for the 2018 and 2022 FIFA World Cup tournaments and are serious competitor to the Holland/Belgium bid.
Han Berger: “That would be the ideal impulse, and make no mistake, they can pull that off here, remember the Sydney Olympics, but that’s all in the future. We are focused on the 2010 World Cup first. We have qualified as one of the first nations and people start to complain that we’re boring.
“We weren’t able to qualify for decades and then now these comments. Pim Verbeek doesn’t mind all that criticism but I sometimes get agitated by it. But hey, we’re missionarie. It’s part of the job”.
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(56)
Kurt said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:37am | Report comment
You have to chuckle at the opening line of this article: “A recent article out of the Netherlands named Dutch football as the most successful of the past forty years”. Well I guess that settles it then!
The Answer said | July 2nd 2009 @ 5:59am | Report comment
Clearly the authors of such a report had been visited Amsterdam’s favourite cafes.
But you have to love the Dutch, they never win, but always believe they had the most style. Good to see a such a positive feelings of self worth, parents in the Netherlands must be very caring.
Slippery Jim said | July 2nd 2009 @ 7:49am | Report comment
This will be my first World Cup tournament as a head coach and I look forward to it, however I realize very well that I can do this thanks to the people I work with
Including Graeme Arnold, I presume. Strange, Henk Duut gets a mention but not the other Socceroos assistant.
Andrew said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Well it’s a Dutch article so you have to consider the audience. He is unlikely to talk about people who aren’t Dutch as they would be largely unknown in Holland.
Arnold did play in Holland though…
Midfielder said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:06am | Report comment
SJ
Same throughts as mine …
Slippery Jim said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Andrew, so this is an article reporting on another article from Holland – isn’t that called plagiarism? Perish the thought, I’m sure the author isn’t purely parroting everthing from that article, there does seem some creative input of his own here.
I would hope that Janex – being from the Gold Coast of Australia, would presumably be targeting his article at Australians, which makes it notable that the perennially unpopular Arnold is ommitted as a key member of the Socceroos coaching staff.
Talking of Arnold and ex-Socceroos, did anyone else watch football superstar last night? Fascinating to see the old Socceroos playing a match against the youg guns, including none other than Robbie Slater!
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Lieve Pim – ik hou van jou heel veel!!!
GeneralAshnak said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
This is a very feel good article, but it does highlight some very important points that get missed by the regular media, and quite often the football media. Our going Dutch has been a completely tactical decision, we have deliberately chosen to make use of the Dutch system to improve the quality of football here in Australia. Though Pim was not brought here to overhaul the entire football system in Australia – as many of us were hoping – the FFA have decided that what the Dutch football philosophy offers is the perfect tie in with Australia. I would suggest that as a sporting nation the main strength we bring to every competition is an unswerving belief that we can win. That belief has been formed over a long period of time where we, as a tiny little nation, have competed extremely successfully in a huge number of sports with countries whose population and wealth far, far exceeds our own. I personally am looking forward to the long term result of this decision, especially as by the 2026 World Cup we would have had our first generation of players who have grown up entirely under this system ready to be playing on the biggest stage in the world.
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:56am | Report comment
General
…or by a 2022 WC hosted in Australia??
I think it’s ok to be excited about us sticking with Dutch expertise – if nothing else, it’s a constant, uniform message and there’s stacks of expertise available at an affordable price – but I do have a problem with some aspects of this article.
Kurt is right that the opening sentence about Dutch football being the most successful of the last 40 years makes zero sense on any level.
Also, I don’t think it’s smart for them to buy into local arguments about whether a particular code is about to self-implode because of “scandals”:
1. because it’s bull shit and makes them sound like dills;
2. it’s not their job to worry about that sort of bull shit anyway;
3. it might play well to some segments of the population, but will play less well to other segments; and
4. I’m only just reading that Cristiano Ronaldo has admitted kicking in the car window of a teenage girl, sending glass splinters into her and having her admitted into hospital for treatment – reinforcing the message – forget the bull shit, leave the PR to Buckley and do the job you’re being paid to do.
Koala Bear said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:04am | Report comment
I have to mention this … Graham Arnold’s body language is so much different around Pims… He almost seems to me he is directing Pim when you see them together on the sidelines… A far different GA when he was assistant to Farina and Guus when he was always clearly seen as the subordinate … Am I imagining this, or is there someone else out there that feels the same vibe… ?
~~~~~~~
KB
Andrew said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:13am | Report comment
@SJ
He is refrencing source material and commentating (not plagiarising). That source material is Dutch, why would someone of know interest too Dutch readers get a mention in an article that was obviously about Dutch coaching. I think your pulling a long bow to read into the lack of name dropping Arnold means anything at all.
I would think it too be more odd for a discussion about Dutch coaching to go totally off topic into “and by the way I want to say I love Graeme Arnold even though he is not Dutch and you dont know who he is!”
The author cant invent quotes that aren’t there.
If you choose too see it as a slight on Arnold your seeing things that aren’t there.
Not that I like Arnold or anything but I do like a “fair go”
Andrew said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Obvously this article is Australian but a large chuck of the source is Dutch, I didn’t see the need to be so pednatic before. Well I assumed that it was obvious…..
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Coincidentally (well, I assume it’s a coincidence), Frank Farina has been quoted in the SMH on this very subject – and he is not so complimentary:
It’s believed the new AIS head coach, Jan Versleijen, is being paid seven times that of his predecessor, former Socceroos defender Steve O’Connor, and while Farina has no issue personally with the Dutchman, he believes there is an inherent discrimination at work. Versleijen is one of five Dutchmen, headed by Socceroos boss Pim Verbeek, contracted by the FFA over the past two years.
“Local coaches have always been undervalued and underpaid, but you look at the wages the FFA is now forking out, and it’s never been so blatant,” he said.
“This is not about sour grapes. I’ve had my time, and I’ve got no regrets. But it’s about time we had some perspective. You think of what people like ‘Rocky’ [O'Connor], Ron Smith and Ray Junna have done at the AIS, for instance. You look at what they were paid, and it’s a scandal. Between them, these guys have basically produced the bulk of the national team for the last 15 years and they were paid peanuts for doing that.
“Now the next generation is going to be produced by coaches who will be getting, what, 10 times what the previous guys were getting. Will the players be 10 times better? I doubt it. I think we have done a pretty good job up until now of producing our own talent, and the results prove that. Don’t get me wrong, I’m as happy as anyone we’ve qualified for the World Cup. But the truth is we were doing pretty well against Asian teams before we moved into Asia. That’s the facts.
“To me, the FFA needs to respect local coaches a lot more, and value them more. There hasn’t been enough recognition. It’s all very well getting in a heap of Dutch coaches but are they all going to hang around after the World Cup? What happens when the fascination wears off? Where’s the succession planning? Will local coaches step back into these positions, and will they be paid as much?”
Midfielder said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Pip
I read Frank’s article … he makes some valid points … but remember as we discussed the other day the 20 to 26 or there abouts are not producing the goods whereas the under say 21’s are …
I think and I assume that there is being set in place a structure that within a given time Australian coaches will be back in charge … overall I think its is the best man for the jon approach.. and at this time it’s Dutch … why Dutch … well it’s … TIPS… total footnall … and that is what so many cannot see
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Mid
there’s no doubt that a generation gap has emerged that lies squarely with the regime of pre-FFA days.
The flip side of that is that the “golden generation” (the current 28 to 33 year olds), also lies squarely with the same generation.
This is not to suggest that the FFA aren’t doing the right thing (the results are certainly there, to a certain degree), but it’s far more complicated that many make out.
Frank makes a valid point that going back a long time we were competitive with Asian nations (although in recent times, we are talking about the full national squad, the Australian B team hasn’t been competitive against the big four or five for a while).
In other words, there is a valid argument that being part of the current Asian confederation set up (for the purposes of qualifying for the WC) is as much an ingredient in a second consecutive WC spot as pretty much anything else we’ve done since the creation of the FFA.
Vicentin said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Pippinu – read the same article and frankly I think it is a Mike Cockerill pushing Frank’s barrow of sour grapes. I suspect when Australia has as well-credentialed, both in terms of pieces of paper and practical experience, coaches as these Dutch fellas, they too will be getting bigger pay packets. Interesting that he talks about succession planning – I would have thought the review of the licencing standards and the general push of the FFA (see “the Curriculum”) is part of the succession planning – developing a large pool of better credentialed local coaches and job opportunities (through academies etc) to go with it. We shouldn’t forget that Van Egmond just got the AIS job on considerably better pay than the Jets were giving him – I’d say this is a bit of gamble too on the AIS’s part.
Also interesting juxtaposition at the bottom of the article it has “Socceroos up to 16th – Page 30″. That article then points out “it is a far cry from June 2000, when nations such as Burkina Faso, Gabon and Haiti were considered to have superior sides to Australia, who were ranked a lowly 92nd” Now I’m not saying Frank was directly responsible for this ranking, and football in Australia truely was a mess in those days … but who was the national coach then?
Slippery Jim said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Andrew, on retrospect, the topic is clearly Dutch influence so I can understand the ommision of Arnold.
HOWEVER
I’ve just noticed that (assuming they are the same person) Janex has copied this article word for word from the same blog on the WorldCupBlog by someone named Jan.
http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/world-cup-2010/dutch-school-rules-in-australia.html
I assume they are the same person recycling his article for the Roar.
Interesting to note that someone accused him on that blog of plagiarism for his simply translating a Dutch article into English and posting it as his own blog article without giving credit to the original author. Can’t really support that or not as I do not speak much Dutch.
Also, in his last article he posted a comment that was completely a cut and paste from a blogger named Edgar’s article presented as his own comment, whether accidentally or otherwise. Edgar picked him up on this, and posted a link to the article.
http://www.football-rankings.info/
It is all interesting info, nevertheless, however the originality for material in both articles is unfortunately clearly suspect.
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:56am | Report comment
Wow – did we really drop to 92nd back then??!!
My memory is fuzzy, but putting aside the disasters of Iran in 97 and Uruguay in 2001, both Venables and Farina got a string of great away results against solid European teams (in friendlies), not just a few, I’m talking an absolute string of results.
This is my memory – if anyone can confirm, I’d be much obliged.
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Ok – I decided to do my own research (goddam, that was a tough decision, but I saw it through!!).
Venables was appointed at the very start of 1997, and ignoring results against the Pacific Islands, here are all his results right up to the Iran qualifiers:
Aust 1 NZ 0
Aust 2 South Korea 1
Aust 1 Norway 0
Macedonia 0 Aust 1
Hungary 1 Aust 3
NZ 0 Aust 3
Aust 2 NZ 0
Tunisia 0 Aust 3
We then went on to defeat Mexico 3-1 and Uruguay 1-0 and draw with Brazil 0-0 in the Confed cup, but lost to Saudi Arabia 1-0 and Brazil 6-0 (which were our only defeats for the year).
Now I put this to everyone – that year in 1997, putting aside the heartache of the Iran game, must rank as pretty much close to the very best year in Socceroo history, not only in terms of wins to losses, but the fact that it includes a few decent away results agaisnt decent opposition.
My memory is that Farina had a similar year in the lead up to his Uruguay games.
Andrew said | July 2nd 2009 @ 11:26am | Report comment
I was initially going to reply “don’t write off the lost generation yet” but looking at the team lists of the 1999 and 2001 Joeys lists it’s very sobering where are they now moment. I am sure there will be a couple of late bloomers similar to how Macdonald was written off but has now come good (Valeri perhaps). But a pretty bad return on such early promise.
The bar has been raised a lot higher for entrance into the Soceroos. In 1996 being top scorer in Scotland would have been really exciting now Macdonald is not even assured a starting place in the Socceroos.
Went looking for the team list and found this article
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-81716.html
Seems since they were given up on in at least a couple have come good, but still very sad.
The 2001 Joey’s team sheet looks even worse. I remember when Jay Lucas was at Wollongong he left for Southampton with much fanfaire….. never been seen since.
I don’t know if it’s because too many left too early, (but then if your good enough you would still make it) or the poor state of the NSL, or the gap year between NSL and A league is to blame.
At least we have the NYL now which is a great step in the right direction.
Andrew said | July 2nd 2009 @ 11:51am | Report comment
I assumed everything in “brackets” was copied from another source with only the bits not in ” ” being Janex work (not a lot really) and didn’t assume Janex actually interviewed any of the coaches, hence why I thought it was normal for Arnold not to be mentioned. I’m pretty new here so I don’t know if a translated and cut down version of another article with a smattering of the authors own comments is the norm or not.
Not realy my place too comment any further…. What you have discovered is something for Janex or an editor to comment on really.
Towser said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
Frank win an A-League title for the Roar get us into the ACL,but stop whinging about foreign coaches getting paid more. Its called the world football market you get what you pay for within that market. When I see Australian coaches coaching succesfully in the big world of football ,then they can command the going “World football rate”. Until then it is sour grapes.
Do we really want to follow England & put sentimental favourites like “Our Kevin luv it if wi beat them Keegan” in charge.
Whatsmore England have produced hundreds more coaches that have been involved in a much higher level of professional football than ever seen in this country over decades. Bit of perspective needed Frankie.
David V. said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
There’s no doubt that Dutch football has been a tremendous success story in the past half a century.
In the 1950s the Netherlands was a football backwater, one of the last bastions of amateurism in Western Europe. However, the decision to create a national, professional competition and the influence of progressive English coaches as well as the inspiration of Austrian and Hungarian football created the Total Football phenomenon. It paid off big time as standards of the league and national team rose and results in Europe came.
It was Vic Buckingham, who managed West Brom for 6 years in the 1950s, who is accredited with unearthing Cruyff and laying the groundwork for the Ajax “Total Football” years.
Slippery Jim said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
http://www.hollandtrade.com/vko/zoeken/ShowBouwsteen.asp?bstnum=1452&location=&highlight=
This article from 2006 is an interesting read on the reasons behind the demand for Dutch coaches in football. It explains the reasons why Holland is able to produce so many high-level football coaches for such a small country.
whiskeymac said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
We can learn from the Dutch more than we can from ourselves at the moment. We could have learnt from the Germans or Spanish or Brazilians or Argies also -and am sure we would have – but we chose the Dutch and, so far, it’s been good – hasnt it? Not sure about their claims of worlds greatest but they do seem to be very successful at exporting their football culture and top managers/ players. Maybe the most successful in recent history at doing so – altho Brazil would laugh at this maybe but how many countries play like Brazil or have Brazilian coaches (i honestly dont know except Portugal with Scolari)?
Surely Frank Farina, having played in Europe would realise this… hopefully the locals will then learn enough to be self suffcient, so the important factor will be what is being passed onto the new round of managers. i always u/s the mecahnisms being implemented by the FFA are designed to reap rewards in the medum to long term by having people such as Baan be in charge for the short term and set up the required infrastructure. It will all be useless if the dutch come and go and theres no transition planning for the locals. sounds very colonial. thank god its Frank Lowry i/c and not Dubbya.
Venables’ Roos were entertaining and but for 15 minutes would have been remembered more fondly. IMO Frank’s Roos had some good results too but crashed badly when they needed to defend properly (ie against Tunisia which we lost 3-0 etc and of course the Urugauy return leg) and were a bit one dimensional tactically. i remember watching the last confed cup and thinking how out of our depth we seemed. bit like Spurs under Ardilles =)
whiskeymac said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
David V – good history lesson as ever. am always amazed at how many “strips” around the world copied Sunderland, or the like, or have the St George on their badges. The poms spread the game very well! Maybe with the Dutch influence in oz Frank is concerend that more HAL teams will adopt oranje into their badges?? nah…
Midfielder said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
Vicentin
Just a point of disagreement with you concerning Farina.. you said …” Mike Cockerill pushing Frank’s barrow of sour grapes”..
Please understand I was also yelling Farina OUT along with almost everybody at the time…
But if ever a person held their diginity, and has to this day said almost nothing about the FFA, JON, Frank Lowy … and he went back and coached in the associations …
As a national coach Frank does not rate .. but as a person who has just got on with things I rate hime very highly…. unlike the other demi Gods who think the are Football … meaning IMO… Arnold Out, Kossie, Fozza and Mrs Football..
So I rate Frank very highly as a person his coaching at A-League has been good and he has been one of the few to give youth first team spots…
Vicentin said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Mid, I quite like how Frank has come back and agree (and have written so on numerous occasions) that he is willing to give youth a go, and has been astute enough to leave organising the defensive duties to Craig Moore – that’s management!
In terms of dignity I have to say I’m still pissed off about that Samsung or LG ad that he did during the 2002 World Cup which had him crying about the Socceroos not making it. Fair enough he may have needed a buck, but profiting on his own incompetency in failing to get us there was beyond the pale (pail?) in my book. I also think he was a turkey in relation to that Andrew Orsatti incident.
David V – tell us more about Vic Buckingham. You can’t just say “who is accredited with unearthing Cruyff and laying the groundwork for the Ajax “Total Football” years.” and then just expect us to accept it without some slight skepticism. Happy to shown this is true …but more details please. Thanks.
GeneralAshnak said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Pips: I am talking about those who are 5 and will spend their formative years under the new regime without having been influenced directly by the old regime. By 2022 those players will only be 18 – I highly doubt any of them will be in the World Cup squad. However by 2026 they will be 22, for the best of them it is a distinct possibility they would be in the squad. As such I would paint them as the first generation to be brought up, in footballing terms, under the new guidelines set out by the FFA utilising the Dutch philosophy of football.
David V. said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
Vicentin: here was Buckingham’s obituary from the Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituariesvic-buckingham-1570444.html
Prior to Ajax, his management of West Brom brought FA Cup success and a brand of stylish football that was well ahead of its time in 50s England. In fact, this is what playing the “Albion way” was all about- it was followed by subsequent managers, and was also seen under Ron Atkinson and most recently Tony Mowbray.
Savvas Tzionis said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
Dutch is the perfect fit for Australia.
It has the required Northern European cultural elements (half the Australian team) without the complete lack of ability that Britain offers the rest of the world (at the moment).
David V. said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
Well you have a point, comparing England’s current team to the one in Italia ‘90 is too painful. The 1990 team had the perfect blend of grit and skill and no real weak points from what I remember.
Savvas Tzionis said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
It had Gascoigne…. the only reason it got ot the Semi’s.
But I was talking about British football in general. The whole structure is dire.
Keep it away from Australia, PLEASE!!!!!!
Towser said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
Slippery Jim
Excellent precise breakdown as to the success of Dutch coaches worldwide.
Lots of interesting points but for me this explains the perfect fit for us:-
“Why would a foreign club hire a coach from such a small country? Reker has many answers to this question, but essentially the main reason is: if you’re not strong, you have to be smart. “The Netherlands has only 16 million inhabitants. To succeed in football at international level we have to make the most of the talent we have. And that means training and training and training”
Be smart should be our motto in all aspects of football. In particular smart recruiting is essential for the progress of the A-League considering our immediate “Big” competitors like Japan.The Dutch are surrounded by big,yet have been far more succesful than other similar sized European nations in producing World class players. Although Portugal with less people dont do too bad. Player wise anyway,maybe not quality coach exporting.
Midfielder said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
Vicentin
As I said it was only a small point we disagree on … we may never agree I just think many in Frannks place many would have cried and bitched … A mate who’e son was playing for Bl;acktown Demons U 16 side was playing Sutherland and Frank’s son was in the Sutherland team… My mate says Frank just say very quitely never said a word clapped both sides good play and after the match shook both coaches hands and the Blacktown boys as well…
A number of parents asked him his views and he just smiled and said I have lefty all that in the past but showed great respect to those that asked …
Slippery Jim said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Savvas Tzionis, unfortunately the temptation to bash the British football system is not entirely supported by the facts. England are not only rated seventh in the FIFA rankings above Argentina and France, but they top their WCQ group, have the most points of any UEFA WCQ nation, and have scored waaaay more goals than any other nation (twice as many as Spain, for example). They have even scored more goals than Brazil in WCQ, and Brazil have played twice as many games!
Also, very recently their under 21 side made the final of the 2009 UEFA European Under-21 Football Championship – something that the other 49 nations in Europe could not achieve.
In the group stages of this competition England topped group B (which included Germany and Spain), scoring the most goals, most wins and highest goal difference. While they did lose the final to Germany, it still shows that their youth system is producing high quality footballers such as Theo Walcott and Micah Richards, that can beat the best youth coming from Spain, for example.
If only Australia could have the same “lack of ability” that England have!
David V. said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
Savvas: you’re overlooking Chris Waddle and John Barnes who were also exceptionally gifted players. England always had that long line of exquisite talents to rival virtually any country, but that line mysteriously dried up. Gascoigne just filled the boots of Hoddle and Brooking.
whiskeymac said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
David V – ” The 1990 team had the perfect blend of grit and skill and no real weak points from what I remember” – well one glaring weak point from what i remember. Ze Germans.
oh and they couldnt take penalties.
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Ok, I unearthed Frank’s year in 2000 (the year before the Uruguay qualifiers), not as good as Venables, but not too shabby either (matches agaisnt Pacific Islands left out again, this was the year when we broke all those records):
Chile 2 Aust 1
Aust 0 Slovakia 0
Aust 1 Bulgaria 1
Hungary 0 Aust 3
Czech Rep 3 Aust 1
Aust 0 Paraguay 0 (twice)
Aust 2 Paraguay 1
NZ 0 Aust 2
South Korea 4 Australia 2
Scotland 0 Aust 2
Vicentin said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Mid – nice anecdote. Guess we all need to remember that no one is perfect – I don’t doubt he’s a decent enough bloke. Bottom line is he should never have been offered the Australian role in the first place and I’d like to think that Australian football has moved on since then …..err except for that Arnold moment.
David V – thanks for the link. I’ll have to do some more research – later. Don’t know if I’d go so far as “lwho is accredited with unearthing Cruyff and laying the groundwork for the Ajax “Total Football” years based on just that obituary ….and no doubt you didn’t either.
cheers
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Those away results against Hungary and Scotland stand out. When you consider the away results we have settled for against very minor Asian opposition in the past 12 months, to defeat two decent European countries on their home turf for a combined total of 5-zip tells me that Farina was doing something right at the time.
Even the draws against Slovakia and Bulgaria, and a home win against Paraguay are pretty good (that loss against South Korea was actually our B team).
My memory is that around this time, there were articles circulating suggesting that Serie A clubs were taking a close look at Farina for a head coach role.
whiskeymac said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
Pip – not that great either… Scotland and Paraguay aside we got thumped by S Korea, Czechs (Euro finalists in 96) and lost to Chile (albeit back then they had Salas etc in his prime)
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
Whiskey
Scotland, Paraguay and Hungary aside.
South Korea will defeat our A-League team by at least two goals every time.
As I said, we defeat Hungary 3-0 away, but struggle against the likes of Bahrain and Qatar away.
This goes to the basic question: is it the “Dutch” coaching that has delivered us a second consecutive qualifier, or merely being within the Asian umbrella for qualifiers, i.e. if Frank had the Socceroos in Asia in 2000-01, he too would have got us into a WC no sweat.
Towser said | July 2nd 2009 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
Pippinu
What has delivered our second consecutive qualifier is an experienced In Asia coach. Its just coincidence that hes Dutch.
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
Towser
I think that’s a valid enough view (Pim’s primary strength was certainly his Asia experience), but I also think it’s fair enough to acknowledge that it’s the first time we’ve come through a full set of Asia qualifiers since 1981 (when we were actually knocked out by New Zealand) – 28 years ago.
A hell of a lot has changed in 28 years – a hell of a lot – it would be a mistake to presume that the bulk of that change is in the last three years – I don’t think that’s correct at all.
Towser said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
PIppinu
Knocked out by NZ, the pain of it all.
Of course its naive to presume that football has suddenly emerged from a post Frank Lowy egg, somehow to transform in 4 years or so into a healthy teenager. In the much maligned dark years the twilight zone of the NSL & Dodgy admin we still produced the current crop of “Overseas Socceroos”. What has changed in the Post Lowy years is the belief in football in this country, that has latently been suppressed, by reasons that we have discussed ad nauseum.
That belief post Lowy ,for reasons we also know well now drives the game forward in all areas.
Lets dont forget also that Asian football has changed a hell of a lot in 28 years. Japan meant Sumo wrestling to me & Bahrain was the place I got cheap duty free. I thought Qatar was the ailment I had as a kid in Sheffield due to the industrial smog.
retired rucker said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
Pip, PIM might respond with “Vil ye me pippen”
Art Sapphire said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Pip – as you said Frank Farina might have of got us to the WC in 2002 if we had an Asian qualifying route.
But at the world cup we would have been well and truly flogged.
Why did you not list the Confed Cup results in 2005 which sparked Lowy to act and dump him.
Germ 4 – Aus 3
Argentina 4 – Aus 2
Tunisia 2 – Aus 0
He is a dead set whinger who was only made national manager because the game was broke.
That’s why he is now managing an A-League team. No European team would ever appoint him.
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
RR
Ik ben helemaal geen Afrikaaner!!!
Pippinu said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
yes – true – the 2005 confed cup was pretty poor (but was it the 2001 one in which we defeated both France and Brazil for 3rd spot?)
There is probably some truth in that view (that he was appointed beause we were flat broke) – but nevertheless, back in 2000-01, Farina was looked upon by some outside of Australia as being a good manager.
I would just warn everyone to not start believing that entree into the WC is going to become an automatic, permanent event – in fact, the opposite is probably true.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | July 2nd 2009 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
Next time round is likely to be more difficult with a less experienced national side and a low probability of getting such a favourable draw, particularly in the final round. It will be very interesting to see who we take to the Asian Cup in 2011.
David V. said | July 2nd 2009 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
The biggest change in football tactics took place between 1970 and 1974. Brazil, Italy and England had all been successful in their own way prior to then, but found their gameplans rapidly outmoded by the Germans and Dutch.
Club sides like Tottenham, Everton, West Ham and West Brom all emphasised fluidity of passing and movement, as well as flexibility, suggesting the movement was already in place in Europe in the 1960s when the Total Football philosophy came to full light.
However, at the heart of the Dutch side was a player who epitomised the classical school of footballers, Wim van Hanegem. He had inspired Feyenoord in league and European success, a player blessed with a wonderful left foot, intelligence and vision that was almost peerless for the time. He was a more static than dynamic player, not one to run all day, but his anticipation and perceptiveness, never mind the accuracy of his passing and shooting, had few equals. A wonderful player. He also fired up whenever they played the Germans.
There are few things more joyful to watch than the static, slow passing game. It makes for beautiful viewing because the ball always moves faster than the man. While English football has always had a mish-mash of different styles of play (which is either a strength or weakness, depending in your perspective), Nottingham Forest were perhaps one of the very few to bring the “static” passing game to perfection.
Axelv said | July 3rd 2009 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
The Answer said
“But you have to love the Dutch, they never win, but always believe they had the most style.”
there is a common belief that the dutch never win but this is simply not true
They won the Euro Cup 88 and consistently go deep into tournaments
if you look at England for example, they have never won a Euro Cup, let alone made a final, only once ever have made it to a semi final
Spain have never made it to a world cup final, and 2008 Euro Cup was their first trophy, i don’t think they’d be too many people going around at the moment that say “Spain never win”
Pippinu said | July 3rd 2009 @ 3:52pm | Report comment
…although until 2008 – we did used to say it!!
DiCanio said | July 3rd 2009 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
Brazillian nat team uses alot of tactics straight from Dutch textbooks
To summarise why Dutch is good for Aust NT you have to keep in mind what we have (great sporting technology and facilities, amazing sports mentality) With what we don’t have (large pop, history of individual talent).
Dutch is also easily translatable because of the european roots of football in this country.
David V. said | July 3rd 2009 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Let’s not forget the positive work Dutch coaches have done in far-flung places, whether it’s Leo Beenhakker taking Trinidad & Tobago to the World Cup, or Mart Nooij getting Mozambique to the second stage of African WCQs (and nearly qualified for the last Nations Cup), while Arno Pijpers guided Kazakhstan to a shock win over Serbia.