Fos concludes that the AFL is weak
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By Pippinu, 24 Aug 2009 Pippinu is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- A-League, Craig Foster, FFA, football, Wayne Jackson
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An interesting article appeared in the Sunday SMH from Craig Foster: Tim’s army is winning code war.
The title drew me in immediately, but I was soon left a bit disappointed to find Fos descending into the wide eyed speculation and wishful thinking we sometimes see of our younger bloggers.
I have a great deal of respect for Fos, in particular, the analysis and understanding he brings to unraveling the tactics managers use in games at the elite level, but on this occasion, I can’t help thinking he has missed the mark by a wide margin.
Early on Fos mentions attending a charity luncheon in Melbourne, which he describes as venturing into the “heart of a rival code”.
This immediately struck me as odd. Melbourne, the home of the biggest and most successful football club in the land, reduced to being viewed as the home of a rival code instead?
Much of the article then goes through various “smell the fear” cliches that we’ve heard without cessation since the establishment of the FFA some 5 years ago.
Towards the end of the article, Fos draws on a quote from an AFL rep, that “everyone can coexist”. Fos took this as a sign of weakness from the AFL, foreshadowing a times-are-a-changin’ scenario of biblical proportions “as the strong become weak and the weak ever stronger”.
Now I understand how segments of his readership would lap up that sort of wishful thinking, but people should be aware that all indicators presently available to us show that what Fos is saying isn’t based on anything too solid.
But never mind what the financial figures and metrics show, let me all give you an insider’s view of how the AFL hierarchy contemplates such matters.
It was some 10 years ago that I attended a presentation made by the then AFL CEO, Wayne Jackson, at the National Press Club.
He responded to a question very similar to the kind Fos heard at the luncheon, and his response was along similar lines: “All the codes can coexist”.
Let me tell you, the AFL has been trotting that line out since the national comp was first formed in 1990 (when the VFL officially became the AFL).
Sitting in Sydney, seemingly oblivious to all relevant metrics and indicators, Fos probably can’t see it, but I see it as clear as day.
When an AFL CEO says “we can all get along just fine”, I promise you this: he doesn’t say it from a position of weakness!
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whiskeymac said | August 24th 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment
fair point. not a big AFl follower (prefer the round ball) but even I was struck by the article’s fantasies. Much rather people stopped havign a chip on their shoulder about the AFL – keeping up with, and harping on about, the Joneses is ultimately fruitless. FFA has a good game/ product (if you prefer) and it’s growing nicely – as highlighted by season 5 and in particular how well the gold coast play. gold coasts performance was the first game i have seen in full for this season and if in 20 years HAL teams are at that standard then the game will have won, regardless of what is happening at the MCG (as impied by Cockerills article this morning about how the other teams will have to react to keep up). i thought Frank Lowry’s interview in the same paper was more interesting. second divisions, relegation, future of phoenix…. these are the more pertinent stories because they involve the games positive development and not the tiresome member comparing (yes i mean both the innuendo and spectators) that fossie sadly stooped to.
Pippinu said | August 24th 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Whiskey
all points well made.
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Pip,
You know my thoughts on this sort of stuff. Too much hubris and perhaps a sign of weakness from Foster himself given the weaker crowds and still low Pay TV ratings for HAL season 5.
If you accept we are all brainwashed by our particular code of football, that is Melbourne people are brain washed about Aussie Rules it is suprising the soccer folk dont turn the spotlight on themselves and realise they have the same affliction.
Sometimes IMO Demetriou needs to say “we can all get along fine” more than he does.
Redb
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:54am | Report comment
Well I have heard many people in Footbal and Rugby elaguel complain about certian aspects of the play.
But perhaps it’s just not enough exposure to the culture of the game but AFL fans always seem to think there on field product is top drawer to the point of fevorism (like they are brainwashed) but when I look at the game I see some great things but a lot of unskillful play.
The fact there are people who never touch an AFL ball but seem able to make the switch in there late teens to me hints it’s not really that fantastic a product and it is probably for the best that it’s quality isn’t really tested by outside forces.
That might just be my ignorance though because we probably only get the sales pitch up north.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
AndyRoo,
Your right its just not enough exposure and also people come with a certain mindset. I’m not saying Aussie Rules is better or worse because all sports have good and bad elements and it really is a boring argument when you get into football DNA arguments about which is better.
Example:
RL people value ball security very highly, but in AFL if you get caught with the ball its holding the ball and you lose possession. In RL you can take up to 5 tackles before losing possession. So a player in front in AFL will often paddle the ball and play a cat and mouse game with his opponent (who is standing right next to him) before taking clean possession but as there is no ‘knock on’ rule or offside you can punch or kick the ball across the ground until clean possession can be obtained. It’s about creating forward momentum wheras RL is played backwards until a break occurs.
This is just of one of the many differences which makes the game play look so different. They are too numerous to mention, but sport watching muscle memory prevents some from understanding the game play. This happens in reverse for AFL fans trying to understand the rugby codes, although union intuitively seems similiar.
But, if I was to point to one good ingredient it would be contested ball in AFL as it’s main attraction, the disposal maybe not alwasy be copy book, but the game throws up constant 50-50 contests. Combine that with a close game and it gets the house rocking.
I’ts funny many neutrals did not like the 2007 Grand FInal which Geelong won by 144 points, too one sided, whereas as a football fan I loved the clinical precision and execution of Aussie Rules played at its finest. When it is very good sometimes the other team is getting flogged.
The downside is a 50-50 contest creates the scrappy play at times with too many players around the ball (which is a blight created by the Sydney Swans).
If you get a chance watch the St Kilda v Geelong game from the middle of July this year. Great game, close result, a real showpiece of Aussie Rules with full on intensity.
Redb
p.s just on skill, take an oval ball, run flat out, bounce it at least every 15 metres and kick it to a leading player 40 metres up the ground at full speed whilst being chased by at least 1 or 2 opposition players desperate to tackle you to the ground.
Lewie said | August 26th 2009 @ 8:33am | Report comment
Rugby League is not played backwards until a break occurs.
Dave1 said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
No
It show that you have to be a top athlete to play it
gg said | March 1st 2011 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
Yeah it’s that & not that some people are naturally sporty. Honestly in the history of AFL that would be barely anyone. If you’re (self-professed) ignorant, stay out of the discussion.
captain nemo said | February 17th 2011 @ 9:32pm | Report comment
wrong again
Pippinu said | August 24th 2009 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Redb
I mentioned this once to one of our League friends, that Demetriou’s five second spot grabs are of a different ilk to that of his predecessors, especially of Jackson’s.
That’s either just him, or reflects a shift in the corporate thinking of the AFL, or it’s a little bit of both.
AndyRoo said | August 24th 2009 @ 9:35am | Report comment
Same as my thoughts Whiskeymac.
I thought it reeked massively of naval gazing. I am a football fan but I am sick of hearing about how football will steam roll all and sunder because it is the world game. Does that mean if football wasn’t popular in other countries I shouldn’t like it?
A little bit less focus on some ones dream 10,20 or 100 years from now and a little bit more focus on improving what we really have. Being the number 1 code in Australia is a pipe dream for football and it won’t be achieved within 10 years (my definition of foreseeable future)
Being number one is a just a title and it shouldn’t be the goal. I don’t think the AFL got there by saying “we want to be number one” they got there by planning to improve their game (auskick and such).
I believe Football should set a different set of goals and forget about how the other codes are doing apart from learning from them
The goals should be more like:
X amount of ACL spots for HAL teams.
Kids in Australia should be able to play football for $50 (plus boots) a year, the fact the levy from the Soccer Australia days is still collected is 1,000,000 times more important to Football’s future than how many people showed up at AFL games this week (Foz did some of his greatest work in this regards but no one else has run with it).
Get a HAL game on Free to air TV (Lowy seems to be on the page with this one)
Make the final of the Asian Cup
Host the best ever Asian Cup
Mark Young said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Gday Pippinu
AFL makes a lot of confident noises about being the dominant code but their confidence could be a weakness.
When I was 15, I was the second best XCountry runner at our school, and could never get over the faster kid in any races. Then.. out of the blue he announced that he was going to play rugby. It was the best news possibly for me, since it led to a slow but inevitable decline in his running and a year later I beat him for the first time ever.
As League fan, that is how I feel about AFL expansion. They are the bigger and more powerful code but but due to their decision to try something novel and different and their dogged determination to do it right, it will inevitably weaken their core, letting League have a look in.
Pippinu said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Mark
with due respect, this article isn’t about whether the AFL is or isn’t no. 1 – it’s about Fos confidently proclaiming that that the A-League will be the dominant comp within 20 years.
Now what he’s saying might eventuate – that’s not my beef – but I’m simply saying that on present indicators, there appears to be very little chance of that happening within 20 years.
Mark Young said | August 24th 2009 @ 6:08pm | Report comment
Gday Pip
Fair enough! I didn’t actually address Football did I, only the League and AFL battle.
I guess I find it amusing that anyone still thinks that any of the four codes are going to either A) Die out or B) Take over.
The biggest threat to any of them will be self inflicted, for example, Rugby League admin was stuck in the past and the agitators started Superleague, Football shot itself in the foot for years with bad planning and a competition with connections to specific nationalities, Rugby signs the Super 14 up to pay restricting the audience to it’s best product, Rugby League players pee, poo, fight, punch, assault random people I could go on.
I suspect that the AFL, which is very VERY confident about their future, could self harm by spending a shed load of cash in Western Sydney in a gesture which ultimately, will not place it above League, just as another sport in the mixing pot.
As a guide, anyone who is actually associated with a code, or has a vested interest, Fitzsimons, Gould, Foster, Sheedy is completely unreliable as a voice for the future of their sports.
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Mark,
Rugby league is getting a look in through its expansion plans in Victoria, WA (to a lesser extent) the AFL is just more advanced in its expansion plans.
Both codes come across fairly confident about their future success, I’ve lost count of the times I’ve heard your argument about how RL will get a look in due to perceived AFL arrogance or “with a better RL administration look out” or my fave “RL will never die”, Is someone somewhere actually trying to kill it?
Reminds me of a scene in the “West Wing” TV series where President Bartlett questions a group of democrat voters in California about the need to proclaim a law against American flag burning to which Bartlett asks “is there an outbreak of flag burning that I’m not aware of? “.
The AFL, the governing body of Australian football is only concerned with growing the game of Australian footy – which is its charter. There are no profits to shareholders, dividents to be paid. TV rights money will be ploughed back into growing the game.
I see no different agenda in any football code in Australia or around the world.
Although you could argue that News Ltd involvement in rugby league is about profit rather than sport.
Redb
AndyRoo said | August 24th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Great West Wing quote, I enjoyed it
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 11:09am | Report comment
cheers Andyroo. Not a big fan of TV drama series generally, but the West Wing is head and shoulders above the rest.
Redb
The Link said | August 24th 2009 @ 11:21am | Report comment
RL will unfortunatley always have a tendency to be looking over its shoulder and trying to be on the front foot, given the palpable frustration of RU adminsitration, jounalists and fans in the country that RL is the bigger game. This tends to get stoked by sensationalist media. In this sense its hard to compare to AFL as it has no similar challenge.
Redb I used to think that the West Wing was close to the best TV drama I had ever seen, till I watched The Wire. Its starting on ABC2 shortly, do yourself a favour
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 11:51am | Report comment
The Link,
No worries, I’ll check it out – getting sick of West Wing DVD series after 4-5 times.
Redb
Dave said | August 24th 2009 @ 5:35pm | Report comment
“The Wire” is pretty good
Mark Young said | August 24th 2009 @ 6:14pm | Report comment
Gday Redb
Yeah Newslimited certainly does squeeze League dry.
I have to disagree with you about the AFL, most pundits and casual fans I speak to are confident that they will eventually squash League eventually. A mate of mine worked in the AFL for a while and he was adamant that in 20 years time we would all be sitting around Stadium Australia watching the Western Sydney Pioneers play the Swans.
I used to think that Union would replace league, but didn’t realise the huge numbers of league players and fans who really couldn’t care less about the World Cup or Bledisloe. All they want is to play for their local club and watch the State of Origin. Look at Andrew Johns, he was offered the world, but all the wanted was to live in Newcastle and play for the Knights, something that Rugby couldn’t offer!
Bigad said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:14am | Report comment
I think those AFL-people who are confident of ‘squashing’ league are the same types who thought in the early 80′s that plonking the Swans in Sydney would suddenly transform it into an Aussue rules heartland. I have no doubt that AFL can and will become bigger and more popular in Sydney than it is now, but this sort of prediction is OTT.
It is fair to say that we are all to some extent ‘brainwashd’ by our ‘home’ codes, but my observation is that rhe depth and thoroughness of AFL brainwashing in Melbourne is really something to behold.
I think you last paragraph is a big part of the reason why their confidence is misplaced.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:39am | Report comment
I don’t know who you are referring to, when you say AFL people who are confident of squashing league.
Most AFL fans never, ever contemplate anything apart from whether their team will win on the weekend. That’s the full sum of their thoughts on the broader game.
As for sending South to Sydney – I was about 19 at the time, and I can tell you that most VFL fans were quite anti, and couldn’t really comprehend what was going on.
At that time, it was merely a desperate act of a desperate administration who were governing a game that was pretty much broke.
The financial success and stability would come later when they got themselves better organised.
But they did have one thing in their advantage – the game had very, very deep roots in most parts of Australia, and even where it didn’t have deep roots, it had had a presence going back more than a century.
Finally, it’s a bit silly to suggest that, say, AFL fans are brainwashed, but if you follow Korfball, it’s because you have absolute free will and have made a considered judgement.
Jaceman said | March 31st 2011 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
The media types will make sure that is more than competing code for their TV rights $$$$. Its in their interests to have 4 codes battling for any scraps they can from 3 commercial TV networks and Pay TV (ABC and SBS dont have any money) . If there were only one code, that code would demand premium money from the media. As far as Demetrious goes he has welcomed the Rebels and a second NRL side to melbourne. Compare this to the histrionics from the NRL about GWS till they finally worked out they shoud shut up about it to draw less attention.
Pippinu said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:05am | Report comment
AndyRoo
Fos made the comments, they were a bit of an eye opener (and a bit disappointing from my perspective), and I’ve commented on them here, because I think he is way off the mark.
Also – about the AFL – it has grown and become more professional over the last 25 years – but what people often forget about is the 125 years prior to that.
It’s not as if the AFL emerged from a vacuum in the last 25 years. You don’t overcome that sort of history in matter of minutes by simply proclaiming: well, we’re here now, we’re much better, so naturally we will take over – which is pretty much the full substance of Fos’ comments.
And a similar thing can be said about the NRL.
william 11 said | September 9th 2011 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
Come pippen the a football league was formed at Jackson and youngs two year prior to the formation of the VFL.
The gentlemen controlling the game cricket started Oz Footie, the rich and powerful aN THEY controlleD of the media.
Oz Football came about cuase they needed a way to keep their players fit (for cricket) so they Oz footie players had instant access to the media.
This led to the media writting about the game inavertably giving the oz rule millions of Dollars of free advertisng ( sublimial Brainwashing)
The global code (200 pluss nations) got little or no exspure , The post war arrivals again set to drive the c code , but regratable to many memories from the bitter conflicts overflowed at times on the local pitches , this gave the media (controlled by third and fourth generation Oz folk brainwashed into Oz Footbal) a oppertunity to take stick it up us.
The first National league was set up by Footbal (the NSL) Again AFL follewed and so did the Rugby code.
Now we Represent our Nation Australia with Some 5 National teams our GIRLS (The matildas) are Asian Champions , our men the Socceroos runner up Asian Champions , EVery month one of our teams play overseas or has a team play here. The futher is FOOTBAL as it is all over the globe. The true internation football…..(ps played mixed Korfball as a youngster)
Robbos said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Response to Sheedy’s article last week re AFL like Disneyland & only sport in Australia that is growing and about the long history of AFL in Sydney and that Jock McHale (yes who?) was born in Sydney.
Pippinu said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:16am | Report comment
It’s true – Jock McHale was born in Sydney.
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:31am | Report comment
If your comparing the two articles I suggest a year learning logic and reasoning sessions.
Sheedy was a promo, come and try this game. No shot at any other sport or talk of dominance.
Foster is saying the AFL are weak must be scared of futbol.
Redb
Robbos said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:42am | Report comment
As per usual you misunderstand me, it’s called preception.
When I read Sheedy’s aricle, I didn’t read as promo, I read as we are bigger (America) than you & we are better than you, you will like us I assure you.
When I read Foster’s foster article I read, football is getting stronger, stay with the faith, as he mentioned football was once the joke sport in Australia & suffered badly thru bad admistration & media coverage, now we want to co-exist. I thought he brought up a good point. But it’s only his opinion.
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 11:12am | Report comment
The Sheedy article is more in the vein of Frank Lowy and his Q & A article in the SMH.
Redb
AndyRoo said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Sorry Pip, by article I meant Foz’s article. I had also read it in the SMH and thought it was crap then so it his article I didn’t enjoy.
Your summary was much better, shame your not his Ghost Writer as you could have pulled his head in
Robbos said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:31am | Report comment
I’m sure he was.
But we all watch & follow our game thru ‘rose coloured glinted glasses’ & Sheedy, Foster or Gould is no different.
And no Demetriou wish ‘we can all get along fine’ will change that.
Pippinu said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:56am | Report comment
Robbos
it must be said that Sheeds is actually paid by the AFL as an “Ambassador”, i.e. as a spruiker.
Now, unless I’m mistake, I don’t think Fos is on the FFA payroll, and if he is, he should declare it.
As a columnist, he has a right to express views, opinions, even hopes.
But to make outlandish claims on the back of very little evidence – I’m simply taking him to task on that.
Also, I didn’t really like him referring to Melbourne as the “heart of the rival code” – when in fact we have the biggest A-League supporter base in Australia.
Luke W said | August 24th 2009 @ 11:06am | Report comment
Is it that outlandish? I agree that right now it seems a bit pie in the sky, but pre-2006 WC, could we have predicted football would be in the position it is now? What will happen after the next WC (particularly if Australia perform well)? What if Australia are granted the right to host a WC, or even Asian Cup? Football has a lot of mediums through which to grow. People can be attracted to the A-League, the Socceroos, overseas leagues, international matches. I agree that based on the past there is little evidence, but Australia has never qualified for two WCs before either.
Davos said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:58am | Report comment
I agree with the article in most, it’s identifying that the ‘perceptions’ of the game domestically has gained a significant platform since 2005 WC qualifier. Thats only four years ago, however look and acknowledge the transformation of the ‘awareness’ of the game/product domestically and internationally, and I’m not talking Internationals, now on ONE Bundesliga and Serie A games are played……
So within 5 year period, Australian National Football Team will have played in two consecutive WC’s and there will be 12 A-L teams and 10 Women’s & NYL teams the latter two getting FTA TV. It goes on…..
Go into the future and speculate that the mens Australian National Football Team will have played in ’14, ’18, ’22, ’26 & ’30 WC’s (20 years from now), that a National Cup and P&R exist with a 2nd division, hosted a WC Finals, hosted ’15 Asian Cup finals, the mens Australian Football Team has won an Asian Cup, the Young Socceroos and Matilda’s continue to go deep into their respective WC’s, FTA TV for Women’s, NYL (already) and A-L, A-L teams consistently going deep into ACL comp, winning one, bigger salary cap’s due to the increased TV revenue enables bigger teams, more depth and playing at English Championship level.
Multiply the achievements to date by the factor of 4!
Are there any other codes in this country that could lay out a 20 year plan with the potential that Football has, IMO I seriously doubt it!
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 11:24am | Report comment
Davos,
No-one should deny futbol’s rightful place amongst the maintream of Australian sport. It is playing catch up and that is its own fault.
But just becuase it is finally getting its act together is no reason to suggest that it will take all before it. This comes from an underlying beleif system amongst futbol fans that futbol’s DNA is somehow geneticially superior to other codes. The evidence to date would suggest that fans of ther codes have had a taste, dont mind it occasionally, but when the footy is over we might go to a few games.
No amount of junior, womens or second rate P & R systems will change the status if the HAL – the Premier Aust comp fails to capture the public’s imagination. All too often futbol fans think the support of the Socceroos equates to support for futbol as a spectator sport.
The Socceroos passed the Wallabies as the national team to follow as futbol is a bigger sport globally and therefore is seen to be a greater sporting challenge, especially given the Wallabies have won a World Cup twice. It’s a little like winning the gold medal in the 100 metres swimming in the Commonwealth games compared to the Olympics. The Socceroos challenge is enormous and we all behind them.
Pull that interest though down to club level in Australia and the glory no longer exists, in club land, the AFL and NRL control the landscape and will for the foreseeable future.
Redb
Davos said | August 24th 2009 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Redb,
Agree on your first point, the past administrators of the game was more about WIIFM.
On your next point, I am not suggesting anywhere that Football is superior, however don’t be confused with self-confidence now that a clear path has been defined with ego or self righteousness.
Disagree with you position that ‘success on the field’ doesn’t flow down to clubs and national comp. Your use of a hypothetical (if) is out dated as success on the field has been an huge catalyst for the ‘emerging’ comp, that is after one WC. The interest in this country for football overall as the WC ’10 get closer will be blissfully deafening.
I also think a few female and youth participants who would disagree with you too, just guessing.
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
Davos,
My point about womens, juniors, P & R – is that the crowds wont flock to these games or watch on TV in great numbers. The structures are all well and good but as a mainstream sport forget it – adds very little commercial value.
IMO P & R is a pipedream for countless reasons expressed on the Roar in the past. It is perhaps more relevant to Adrian M’s article about over crowded sporting landscape, but it is folly to suggest a club could maintain members/fans, sponsorship, crowds, TV interest,etc if they were relegated and still have to maintain player standards (wages) and the travel required.
I agree the WC has elevated interest but if you measured the eurphoria regardless of circumstance about this WC’s qualification it was met with quiet applause rather than effusive joy (Aloisi in 05).
There is a ‘been there done that’ element this time, we the sporting populace expect the next step now. We Australians don’t like going backwards.
Redb
Davos said | August 24th 2009 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Redb,
With regards to the Women’s & Youth, lets compare apples to apples, what comparative sport at national level currently exists for youth, AFL – TAC Cup, NRL -Toyota Cup, are these not about talent identification and development. Sports career pathway for both AFL & RL is domestic only, Football is international. And the women’s, Netball and W-League are the only professional games for women on a week to week basis. HUGE commercial market. Talent development and capture is a commercial business, for the player and club.
P&R can be debated until we are all blue in the face, but at some point it will happen, and it will happen sooner rather than later, also it doesn’t have to be 2nd rate as you refereed. It has a commercial relevance under the right business model, for the game. Not just because it happens ever where else, but because it has never existed in this country for any code. It’s called POD, point of difference, and thats what football will demonstrate.
As for the WC qualifier, everyone is now educated with the process and that we could have qualified a game earlier as the ‘first country’ into the ’10 WC and comparing that to a 2 leg knockout stage once every 4 years!! Ask everyone which method of qualifying is more productive to building a system for the WC…. As for the crowd factor for the qualifying game in Syd, in my opinion Sydneysiders are fare-weather supporters – it was wet and bloody cold.. yet had it been Melb, for sure 70 – 80k in the same conditions….ohh it was, a week later after we had already qualified and 75k turn out to watch because they didn’t have too. That speaks louder than the Aloisi moment.
This isn’t about a quick personal fix on the game from week to week, football followers are looking 10 – 12 – 16 months ahead at potential games of interest, the planning, the blooding of new talent, the draw, and the opposition line ups. It’s a bit of the tortoise and the hair story.. we all know who won that race.
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Davos,
So you’ve declared victory and Foster to be right. Good luck with that.
But if you really want to look at the tortoise and the hare scenario then Foster is suggesting the tortoise strap on a bulldozer and chase/barge the hare off the track.
The hare is going to say eat my dust, prove it.
Redb
Ghost said | August 24th 2009 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
Ummm… I know its not PC to say this but we have to be honest. Football’s “DNA” actually IS superior to those of AFL and NRL. Not in basic gameplay, but in the fact that the code is actually properly linked up around the world and as such has real meaning and real reward and punishment mechanisms (most of which is effected through P&R and player transfer markets, things not available to AFL and NRL).
But to be fair and balance that, over the last 50 years AFL and to a lesser extent NRL have done wonderful things with non-wonderful products, whereas “socca” has done woeful things with a wonderful product.
AndyRoo said | August 24th 2009 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
I don’t think that is true though Ghost.
The Global thing doesn’t mean anything to a lot of people, Rugby and Tennis are global but that hasn’t stopped me liking them less and less. I don’t care how many billions fall in love with 20/20 cricket I am not going to take to it.
I enjoy both league and football, obviously if I wasn’t raised in a rugby league area I probably wouldn’t be a rugby league fan but when I watch it I feel I am genuinely enjoying it. It’s not a marketing trick or a great deception, It’s a good game.
Mushi said | August 24th 2009 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
What bollocks Ghost, how is it considered remotely “fair and balanced” to describe the domestic codes as substandard products? Seems more in the biased and self serving.
The DNA being the labour market is ridiculous.
You also fail to recognise that this purported strength (I won’t go into the arguments of parity in sport) is the exact reason why the Australian product will always be of a substandard quality in a global sense.
We do not have the resources (the GDP or viewing population) to compete for talent in this global market place on a regular basis, meaning the HAL will be never be a truly elite competition.
But hey that’s “wonderful”
Ghost said | August 24th 2009 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
Easy response as its a corollary to what you write Mushi.
So BECAUSE HAL can never be truly elite we prefer to invent and play strangle little codes not played anywhere else in the world, so that we never have to be confronted with the consequence of our small player pool, resources, etc. We can think we are seeing sonething elite when it may in fact be quite mediocre because we simply don’t (and in AFL’s case can’t) test it against anything else in the world. Just the same old suburbs playing each other year in year out, like a crazy little merry-go-round. But as long as the punters are happy hey lets not ask ourselves too many questions about validity…
Dave said | August 24th 2009 @ 5:40pm | Report comment
that makes no sense AFL is older than soccer
MyGeneration said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
And despite our small player pool, resources etc., and the fact that we divide it up between four different codes, we still make 2 World Cup Finals in a row. Maybe we’re really, really good or maybe Association Football’s not that hard or maybe it’s player pool doesn’t overlap all that much with the other codes. Or are you saying that if we all just corrected the faulty bits in our DNA and concentrated on one code we could have won a couple of World Cup Finals by now? Eugenics anyone? Viva la revolution!!!! (Sorry, running out of time and my sarcasm gene took over. Great to be back.)
Pippinu said | August 24th 2009 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Ghost
the more you write, the less sense you make.
Aussie rules predates Association Football, and obviously it predates the A-League by over a century.
So what the hell does it mean when you say we prefer to invent little codes??
It’s an idiotic statement.
Redb said | August 24th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
The imperialist marches on .
Ghost said | August 24th 2009 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Accepting that pedantic point I’ll copy-edit myself and say “we prefer to maintain the primacy of little locally-invented codes…’ the point is the same which is that we preference some sports in which we don’t ever have to confront a test of quality against the world. And to me that is stupid and cynical.
Pippinu said | August 24th 2009 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Ghost
we would gladly confront a test with the world – if the world was good enough!!
Pippinu said | August 24th 2009 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
Umm, I guess Australians can choose to emulate a successful, prosperous, democratic country such as the US in terms of how it pursues its sporting interests, or we can choose to emulate some of the lesser lights in the world (on a wide range of ecoonomic and socio-political indicators): Brazil, Rumania, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, etc. etc.
High standards or lowest common denominator?
Dave said | August 24th 2009 @ 5:41pm | Report comment
Soccer’s “DNA” actually IS not superior to those of AFL and NRL
Jb said | August 30th 2009 @ 1:00am | Report comment
if you think about it soccer gave birth to all our major codes because Rugby gave Rugby League and a lot of rules to afl
Dave said | August 30th 2009 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
Soccer did not give birth to aussie rules. Aussie rules is older than soccer.
Djrobinson said | August 11th 2010 @ 11:25am | Report comment
ok Dave. I was amazed to read your statement that AFL was older then Football (Soccer). I did a quick search on wiki to see if you were right
The first set of rules for AFL were used in Melbourne in 1858 (source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Australian_rules_football)
The first standardized set of rules used for Football happened in 1848 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football) but much debate continued on. Football (Soccer) as a game has been played under different rule sets for a very long time.
So i’m trying to figure out where you got this idea that AFL was older.
Mister Football said | August 11th 2010 @ 11:36am | Report comment
You are referring to the Cambridge rules (which were highly influential to both soccer and Australian Football).
The first laws of Association Football were drawn up in 1863, it says so in the very article you refer to, and this is the date widely accepted by all sports historians.
The first laws of Australian Football were drawn up in 1859. The original hand written document is on display in the MCG museum.
Dave1 said | August 12th 2010 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
from your link the game formed in 1848 was not Soccer
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football)
“…The Cambridge Rules, first drawn up at Cambridge University in 1848….”….”…They were not universally adopted. During the 1850s, many clubs unconnected to schools or universities were formed throughout the English-speaking world, to play various forms of football….”
Soccer started in 1863 with the formation of the FA even thought the game was probably more like the older Aussie rule because it involved
the following rules
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_association_football
“…..IX. A player shall be entitled to run with the ball towards his adversaries’ goal if he makes a fair catch, or catches the ball on the first bound; but in case of a fair catch, if he makes his mark he shall not run.
X. If any player shall run with the ball towards his adversaries’ goal, any player on the opposite side shall be at liberty to charge, hold, trip or hack him, or to wrest the ball from him, but no player shall be held and hacked at the same time…..”
mahony said | August 24th 2009 @ 10:09pm | Report comment
That was my take on it Davos. It is important for those passionate about football to outline their vision of the future and to reflect on their observations about how the climate is shifting (or not as some here believe). Fozzie was simply reporting on his first hand experience at a recent forum and his take on the statements made by representatives of other codes. That is all Fozzie did – nothing more. To twist his words, verbal him and imply he was saying things that he clearly was not is no more an example of journalism than that through his accusers opine .