By Adrian Musolino
August 25th 2009 @ 5:53am
Related coverage
The code war exists, but it won’t be a battle to the death
The St Kilda supporters hold up in tribute the No 35 as St Kilda's Robert Harvey prepares to kick - Photo by Slattery Images
Craig Foster, love him or loathe him, has put the idea of a code war back onto the agenda with his article for The Sydney Morning Herald. The response to his piece has, in my mind, highlighted people’s skewed view of the true essence of what the code war is about.
Some, like Foster hints at in his piece, claim the code war is an ideological war for hearts and minds that determines the pecking order of the codes. Others, like “the gent from basketball” from Foster’s piece, argue the code war is illusory.
The reality lies somewhere in between.
Since the VFL expanded into the AFL, capitalising on the popularity of Australia’s indigenous code, and the codes were forced to share the same marketplaces, the code war has existed and has been intensified for the following reasons:
1. Basic economics
A common claim made by the deniers of the code war is that they can and do support more than one code at the same time, and the fact the codes are in such a good position after the expansion of the past two decades. This therefore proves the code war is illusory.
Yes, that may be the case, but where the code war comes into it is in pure economic terms, with every ticket purchased or live match watched.
When on a Sunday afternoon in Melbourne, you have the choice of seeing the Victory playing at Etihad, the Demons at the MCG or the Storm at Olympic Park, the code war is being played out.
Which you choose is not dealing fatal blows, but it’s what contributes to the fluctuations of the codes.
2. The times we live in
The economic crisis and such heavy reliance on commercial realities makes it inevitable that codes, in the same markets, are fighting in an intensified battle for the same corporate dollars, big television contracts and your hard earned cash.
3. Poaching
With the increase in professionalism, the codes have better managed to find, develop and try and retain talent. Yet, as Karmichael Hunt has shown, enough money and temptation can sway a player.
Poaching adds an extra dimension to the code war.
As the likes of Michael Jordan and Valentino Rossi have shown, one athlete can elevate a code to unimaginable levels.
4. Expansion
This is where the code war is really being fought: in new markets. As I’ve written previously, the fight over new markets, namely West Sydney and the Gold Coast, will be an aggressive battle that intensifies the notion of the code war.
Rather than being an ideological battle, the code war is all about economics and pure numbers, especially during expansion.
But it isn’t as easy as saying AFL is leading with NRL and co chasing.
The reality is, at certain times and in different ways, all codes will have their periods of domination and stagnation for a variety of reasons. This is the beauty of Australia’s varied sporting palette.
The code war is like the Cold War in many ways.
Fought on so many different fronts, in so many different and multifaceted ways, the major battles taking place in the mad rush to win over disputed territories, yet never really developing into the direct battle between the superpowers, partly due to the fact they could, in reality, co-exist.
But, unlike the Cold War, we won’t be left with one definitive superpower as a result of it.
As Foster reiterates, codes can co-exist, and fans shouldn’t worry that the code war threatens the very existence of their favourite code.
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Kurt said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Adrian
I don’t doubt that the ‘code wars’ exist to some extent, albeit not to the fevered levels many of us like to imagine on The Roar. However three of your four points (no. 3 being the obvious exception) could just easily be used to highlight the overall competition that exists within the sports and entertainment market. If we take your argument to its logical conclusion we could say that just as a supporter may choose between the Storm, Demons or soccer, they could just as easily choose to see a movie instead, or perhaps stay at home and flick between all three games on TV. You make the mistake of assuming that spending on sports is a zero sum game, so if more people start going to NRL games then they must be dropping off the AFL/A-league. Whilst that may be true for some supporters, for many it is simply a case that their team has started winning for the first time in ages and they’ve decided to prioritise the footy over some other use of their time and money.
So in theory therefore it is entirely possible (if not terribly likely) for all football codes to grow simultaneously by capturing more of the total entertainment spend rather than just stealing supporters from other codes. There is indeed significant evidence to suggest this is exactly what has happened in Australia over the past 25 years, with far greater numbers of people attending sporting events now than in the early eighties.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
This is actually a very good point.
I just guess articles like “civic video introduce $2 friday to take on NRL/AFL” arent as sexy or interesting but probably just as relevant.
Dave said | August 28th 2009 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
its what they write about in india
http://www.screenindia.com/news/ipl-takes-a-toll-on-movie-releases/317572/
IPL takes a toll on movie releases
Ghost said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:26am | Report comment
I cannot believe I am agreeing with Kurt but it is an essential and very valid point to make. Here in Sydney, on any given weekend you may have 5 or 6 games of different sports on, 2 or 3 international concerts, a couple of major exhibitions, all the fringe theatre and dance and comedy stuff thats on, at least one cultural fair or festival, and then the usual 3 or 4 newish blockbuster movies. And then even less formally the beach, the parks, the cafes, the video store, the amateur/participation sports, the bars and nightclubs (especially as pro sports matches are more and more scheduled at night) etc. That is the real competitive landscape we’re talking about.
DiCanio said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Agree with Kurt
Believe I mentioned something similar on Pips epic Fos post
Spiro Zavos said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:20am | Report comment
One of the problems for football, and rugby union for that matter, in the code wars is that the media in Melbourne, especially in the senior levels of the sports departments, is fanatical about Australian Rules. In Sydney and Brisbane the obsession lies with rugby league. The sports editors express this obsession through their selection of stories and profiles of players and so on. At least in Sydney, at the SMH particularly, Australian Rules and football get a fair go. But football, rugby league and rugby union get virtually no coverage in Melbourne.
This notion of the code wars is actually a very old one. Back in the 1880s (I think) adherents of the ‘Victorian science,’ the Australian Rules game, went to London to convince the IRB that their game should be the universal rugby-type game throughout the English-speaking world. The audacious bid did not succeed. But visiting rugby teams before 1900 (the NZ Natives in 1888) used to play the Australian Rules game when they travelled to Melbourne.
For what it is worth, I think football will break this Melbourne AFL protectionist grip, but not for some decades. So Foster is on to something.
Rugby league and rugby union, though, will remain boutique sports in Melbourne, albeit with rugby union with terrific demographics for the advertisers plus all those ex-pat New Zealanders and South Africans to bulk up the crowds.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Spiro
I read the Age sports lift out every day (the actual paper), and I can tell you that the Victory and the A-League get very good coverage – probably better than any other paper in Australia.
League gets one page every day – now that might not sound a lot to people North of the Murray – but one page every day is actualy way out of proportion with the level of interest in League in Melbourne – so I would actually describe that as good coverage.
Fos might be onto something, but on the figures that I have before me, the ones with dollar signs in front of them – I’m not really sure what it is that he’s onto.
The Answer said | August 27th 2009 @ 6:09am | Report comment
I believe the Age have a sponsorship agreement with the Victory so this may have something to do with it.
Kurt said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
It is a topic of constant fascination to me that presumably intelligent people such as Spiro are of the firm opinion that they know far more about the sporting interests of Melburnians than the people running the media outlets in that city. Now I suppose it’s possible that the reason AFL dominates media coverage in Melbourne (with both the storm and victory getting a reasonable look in as Pips says) is because of the dastardly bias of the journos at work. Or maybe, just maybe it’s because the people running The Age, Herald Sun etc. have an idea about what people are interested in and what sells papers. Just a thought.
DiCanio said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Also Print media is a resource intensive product, so you are going for maxmum exposure given your limited resource
Compare a newspaper to a website like the roar. In one day the roar could essentially replicate the printable content of a newspaper 1000 times over and distribute that to more people in further geographical positions for less the 1% of the cost of a newspaper.
Applying outmoded economical thinking to far distant future goals is surely a recipe for disaster.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
cocky shite.
The ‘other’ codes get no or less treatment than AFL does in Sydney most of the time. I read the Sydney and Brisbane papers when travelling and guess what the AFL stories are usually up the back after you’ve waded through 6 pages of RL stories. So the reverse happens in Melbourne. Go to the SMH website and see where the AFL section sits in the sporting section. http://www.smh.com.au/sport/
Look at the crowds and TV ratings for footy in Melbourne. This is not a chicken and egg argument centred on media coverage. The game has always had massive support in Melbourne, massive per capita on a world scale. In 1925 the VFL had 1,871,236 total crowds for the year at an average of 17,653 per game.
Melb AFL crowds last weekend – 208,952 for the 5 games at an average of 41,790 – not a blockbuster in sight.
Anyway I guess Spiro is just stirring for hits.
Redb
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:28am | Report comment
In fact, I read a post somehwere, where the Age soccer writer, Michael Lynch, who is English himself, talks of his sports editor, who I think is also English and a big soccer fan, saying that he’d love more to be written on soccer, but that they are already at the very edge in terms of the proportion written compared to aussie rules.
BigAl said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Spiro – I also am puzzled about your repeated claims about ‘…virtually no coverage…’ in Melbourne !
To me this is just not so.
I know you are in the professional media business, so presumably you would have access to stats. (column inches ?) to prove your repeated claims.
i.e. please put up or . . .!
John Ryan said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Ah the old class thing Spiro,you rugger buggers cant help yourselves can you,we have a better class of supporter,yet I think a survey in Sydney found more in the AB demographic supported the NRL.
Still you always have the SMH who love Rugger bless there little cotton socks,keep up the good work Spiro
Steve said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Spiro,
you say that “rugby league and rugby union get virtually no coverage in Melbourne”
The herald-Murdoch gives the storm WAY MORE coverage than they deserve, and as far as union goes…what would you like the media to report? A daily double page spread of the super 14 comp. that doesn’t have any relevant to Victoria? Or daily articles on the vic state comp? [if they have one]. maybe if rugby HAD a national club competition or more than 128 turned up to see the Rebels play then Union would get more coverage in Vic.
Jb said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:19pm | Report comment
Rugby Union only gets half a page in the courier mail and maybe 1 on a good day
zach said | September 1st 2009 @ 9:15pm | Report comment
You have got to be kidding about other codes not getting a fair go in the Melbourne press. One of our dailies is the sponsor of Melbourne Victory and the other is the part owner of the Melbourne Storm. Both vigorously promote those codes in which they have a vested interest, but they cannot afford to ignore the public’s interest which is overwhelmingly in favour of Australian Football. In the past 20 years every other code has tried to set up in Melbourne – they have sent us their best matches like State of Origin, the Bledisloe Cup and World Cup qualifiers and have also set up teams here. Melbourne people have lapped all of this up but the popularity of our own game has not been dinted in the slightest – in fact it has grown to utterly astonishing levels. If Australian Football can flourish under those conditions it will never be displaced from the top of the heap.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:29am | Report comment
Did Fos say everyone can co-exist? In fact, I thought he pilloried the bloke who said everyone can co-exist, concluding the AFL was weak, and that soccer would dominate the scene in 20 years – when it would no longer need to co-exist with anyone else.
Now it’s fine for people to dream – I have no problem with that – but to make such bold predictions based on such flimsy evidence is what strikes me.
As Kurt has said, this is just another industry in the modern Australian economy – but when you sit to look at the numbers that matter – the ones with dollar signs next to them, this is what we find:
AFL: TV rights of $156 mill per annum and over 7 million attendances per annum.
FFA: Combined TV rights for the A-League and the Socceroos, I repeat, this is the combined TV rights for the A-League and for all Socceroo games. What do people think it is? $120 million per annum perhaps? No, it’s a pissant $18 million per annum.
Just in case people didn’t get that the first time. Let me repeat it:
The combined TV rights for all A-League games and ALL Socceroo games is a pissant $18 mill per annum.
Now it’s possible that the next deal might double to $36 million, not guaranteed, but it just might.
In the meantime, the next AFL deal might go up to $200 million per annum, not guaranteed, but it just might.
So, I’m just curious what numbers Fos was looking at when he made his bold prediction? Because clearly it’s not rooted in reality.
Mark Young said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
Gday Pippinu
Roy Masters has written some interesting articles about the new TV deals that will be negotiated.
Now this must be taken with a grain of salt as Roy is as Leaguey as they come but…
Of the top 100 rating shows on Pay for 2008/9 – 64 were games of league, and 23 were AFL, Rugby 7, Football 5 and Cricket 1.
Considering that Fox pays a lot more for AFL then they do for League does this mean that League is undervalued or AFL is overvalued? Maybe a bit of both.
Even though there will be an extra game, getting that $200Million per annum dollar deal will be a big struggle for AFL since their fans actually prefer to go to games, not watch them on TV!
(Interestingly, based on Roy’s figures $18 for Football sounds about right!)
http://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/news/rustys-right-on-tv-deal/2008/07/16/1216162958657.html?page=2
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Mark,
Like you said Roy Masters must be taken with a grain of salt. He leaves out a lot of detail and takes only the stats that suit his agenda.
Redb
John Ryan said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:49am | Report comment
Somewhat like you old son,if they dont agree with your AFL view its wrong
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
C’mon Pip, even you know that that is an unfair comparison. That TV deal for football was made before the A-League kicked off. No one knew whether it would float or sink, and the FFA were going to take whatever they could get. The Socceroos hadn’t yet captured the imagination of the sporting public with WC 2006, and were playing sporadic internationals at best. It will be interesting to see how big the football TV deal is next time, but I’d suggest now that all factors combined (success of A-League and Socceroos, more A-League matches and more Socceroos matches through Asia) that it will be much larger.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Luke
fair cop – what you say is true.
I would add – why would an experienced business man like Lowy lock in 7 years? when most other deals are around the 5 year mark?
I’ve said that a doubling of the rights is possible – but would you anticipate that the increase would be more than double?
In any event, when the numbers are laid bare out on in front of you, they are pretty stark aren’t they?
And this is my point – on what basis are such bold predictions made when the raw numbers (the ones with dollar figures in front of them) – do not support such bold predictions?
Is the A-League going to grow? Yes, of course it is – no one is disputing that – but is it going to outgrwo the AFL and/or the NRL in the next 20 years – and the evidence suggests that that won’t happen.
Anyway, never mind the AFL, as True Tah said on another thread, the big success story this year is teh NRL – through all their trials and tribulations – the figures the NRL have posted this season are sensational.
So one thing I can tell everyone with certainty – the NRL isn’t going away in the next 20 years – we can all be very confident of that prediction.
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Lowy is a smart man. Like I said, no one knew how the A-League would go. What if it did fail? The smart thing about dealing with Fox rather than the FTA channels meant that for 7 years, the A-League would be getting live coverage on station that has given football a fair go in the past and present (and all sports for that matter). I just hope that the next deal is reasonable with regards to FTA. Sure, I’d like to see the code grow, but I can’t shake the feeling that any A-League games on a FTA channel would not be given live, primetime status. I think a highlights show would do for now.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Luke
a highlights show on FTA would be an excellent fit for the A-League – I hope they can get it off the ground.
But in all honesty – I can’t ever imagine watching the A-League live on FTA, and to be honest, I much prefer to watch all my football on Fox.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Hi Mark
Yes – it’s very possible that League is undervalued in terms of what it’s getting (the numbers certainly suggest that).
I would only temper that by adding the following – the AFL TV rights deal is an FTA deal spread across two FTAs first and foremost – it is a Pay TV deal in secondary terms.
By that I mean, Fox only came into the deal after 7/10 had secured the rights, who, naturally enough, get the pick of the four games on offer.
So yes, League will definitely be looking at extracting more (although we all know that the Fox/News partnership is somewhat compromised from that point of view) – but people should also understand that the AFL TV rights deal is a very different animal to the League TV rights deal.
One last thing, and I’m not an expert in this area, but others might be able to clarify – I understand that Fox has it’s largest penetration in NSW/Qld – and far less penetration in the other states – a situation that will gradually remedy itself over the next few years or so.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Foster is lucky for his game that this article did not get published in Melbourne.
Redb
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:01am | Report comment
Well, the Age is SMH’s sister paper – so they could have run it – it would have got a fair ol’ roasting – in many respects – I think it should have been run.
Why hide away the real, considered thoughts of an influential figure such as our Fos.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Why lucky, if it blows up in Melbourne I don’t think it would really effect the Victory. Are the people that go to Football going to be put off by media personalities having a dig.
Foz hasn’t been a great ambassador for the A league, a bit on SBS better this year since it seems a lot of fans are sick of the negative Barcelona themed shctik.
If AFL fans and Media all got in a lather about what Foz wrote they would just hurt their own reputations as no doubt intelligent contributions like Voss’s would be ignored and up north and we would read whatever Vic pulled out the ethnic game or wimps game tag. It wouldn’t be a great advertisement for the Western Sydney AFL push that’s for sure.
Only Rugby League would win.
And for the record I think Fox article was garbage, and proabbly meant to be provacative.
Ghost said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:34am | Report comment
RedB – why? Actually I can answer that. One can only write prejudiced arrogant over-inflated articles i nthe Melbourne press if they are about the ’sacred’ game of AFL.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Why? – becuase most people would think geez you try and be nice to some people.
I’ve said elsewhere, there is no fire in the belly to protect the code for most AFL fans, why prod?
Frank Lowy and the FFA have deliberately marketed the A League as a second choice, “support your own AFL or NRL club and add an A League club”. Its smart, doesn’t put anyones nose out of joint and importantly a club like Melbourne Victory has used this mantra to pull in AFL fans.
Look I’m a little lost as to why he uses this moment in time when the A League is not exactly going gangbusters to invite more shots across the bow. Maybe he was drunk, just watched Aloisi slam through the penalty that got us into the World Cup and in some sort of stupor decided yep those other codes are scared, weak, they want to co-exist (cue sinister laugh) I reckon they’re scared of us – tha’ts what it is….hiccup!
Give us 20 years then we’ll tell you to ’smell the fear’, oh we were a little premature with the growth trajectory of the A League and shite when is that damn World Cup starting that will scare ‘em. Hiccup
Redb
captain nemo said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Ghost said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Pippinu – slack of you to repeat your stuff from the other thread…
But you are essentially right, even if the next FFA deal is $50mill (and I believe this should be the lowest acceptable level) it is still only a third of that for the little southern game. On the one hand yes this situation is aggrieving, but on the other I agree that Fos’ bold predictions fly a bit in the face of hard logic.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
I don’t know if they will get 50 million when the closest comparable product is Rugby union ratings wise.
But there are a couple of differences that make it hard to predict
Some internationals for Football are sold as exclusive and top rating (a positive for Football’s worth)
The number of Internationals is not consistent, football has no guaranteed Bledisloe or Springbok tests in Australian prime time every year (a negative)
The FTA component that Football needs for exposure, say one game a week on a sweetheart deal with one HD or SBS (lets face it the a league isn’t worth anything to FTA at the moment) is a negative because it removes the exclusivity.
So considering the above I would say anywhere between 20m and 30m per annum (OZ rugbys share is A$ 25.73m per year) seems close to true value.
The Link said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
Pip, re your previous statement on Pay TV saturation, this is something I hear often as a reason for NRL’s dominance in Pay TV ratings (higher saturation rates in NSW / QLD). If the Pay market in the southern states isn’t close to saturation after 15 years, then will it ever be?
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
The link,
Part of the issue is that 5 out of 8 NRL games are only available on Foxtel whereas recently (last 2 years) it’s been changed to 4 out of 8 for AFL, and some are still shown on free to air in certain markets.
Apart from the fact the Foxtel and rugby league have been together from day on in the pay tv landscape, there is a greater incentive to hook up to pay to see your preferred code in NRL.
Free to air coverage, in AFL we get a Friday night, 2 x Sat and Sunday game. I think NRL is 2 Fri night and 1 Sunday.
http://www.astra.org.au/content/pdf/MediaReleases/ASTRA-Ratings-for-Week-090816.pdf
The AFL is growing on Pay TV, even a footy chat On the Couch gets good viewers so its growing as the coverage with 4 live games has improved since the start of 2008.
But you can still live without Foxtel and watch a fair spread of AFL games over the weekend.
Redb
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:24am | Report comment
Link
I’ve said straight out that the NRL ratings on Fox are excellent, I’m definitely not trying to say otherwise.
On this question of saturation, others will know more than me, but in the first 5 years of Pay TV, the AFL was actually on a rival Pay TV station. When Ch 9/Fox won the rights – that channel went bust.
So that’s the first point, the Southern states have had less exposure to Fox (afterall, if a Pay TV station doesn’t have AFL, they’re not going to get many subscribers in the other states).
You and I have discussed this before – when 7/10 won the rights, initially without Fox, it was a game of brinksmanship that ensued, and Fox was the first to blink.
But what are the growth prospects? I have no idea.
The Link said | August 26th 2009 @ 10:56am | Report comment
Pip, RL was originally on Optus as well. It was split between Optus and Fox after the SL war until Optus folded.
simonjzw said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
There’s no doubt a code war exists but to suggest any code will be the ultimate winner is fanciful. This is because every code has some inherent flaw and can’t cater to all the needs of the Australian sports follower.
Soccer is played everywhere with many options for high standard matches to watch and a genuinely competitive World Cup. But the game is too low scoring and its global diversity means there is no single top tier league where the best play against the best and Australia’s A league is so far down the pecking order you know your watching something that is second rate on the world stage.
The AFL has a fast exciting game that draws on local tribal ownership of teams, it is the best level of competition in that sport in the world but it can’t provide the sports fan with a national team to follow.
Rugby league is fast and exciting but a bit to predictable in game play, the NRL is the best local competition in the world and State of Origin the highest level the game is played at, however star players are prone to be poached overseas and the level of international competition is laughable.
Rugby Union has the best level of international competitiveness for the Australian sports fan, when the Wallabies play the All Blacks you know you are watching the best of the best in action and representing your country. But the game itself has evolved so defensively that attacking, free flowing play rarely happens at the top level, reducing the spectacle for the sports fan. And the rules are impossible to understand.
No code has it all and no code ever will and that’s why, inspite of all the money that will be poured into the code war by each code, each code will find it’s own niche
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:59am | Report comment
Good post Simon – fair analysis – people often underestimate the power of tribalism in committing people to their respective teams, often for life.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Fair analysis? I guess if your an AFL fan.
I would have mentioned the following negatives but hey thats just me (northern heathen)
A lot of argy bargy and cheap shots that would turn off mothers (e.g Franklin on the weekend) and the actions of the guy that plays for Port Power. This should be cleaned up if you want to make the game more appealing. Buddys hit seemed unintentional but he is facing suspension but a guy that purposfully punches him in the face (drawing blood) while two other Richmond Players hold him down has no case to answer. Thats not a good look.
Tanking is the ultimate insult to fans, having to watch a game where your team isn’t trying to win. Pretty easy to fix.
Field feels way too clustered around the ball up and boundary throw
Semi finals always in Melbourne, that doesn’t seem fair and something that irks me in Rugby league too.
Lions unlikely to win every game (Sorry it’s very dissapointing to invest the 10 hours an AFL match seems to take and lose to some Adelaide or Melbourne team)
just my cheeky 2c
Michael C said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
AndyRoo -
having objections is one thing – but, ensure they’re correct.
Semi finals always in Melbourne, that doesn’t seem fair and something that irks me in Rugby league too.
False – - even preliminary finals can and have been played interstate. ONLY the GF is ’stuck’ in MElbourne. It’s the NRL that has retained this Sydney centricity. Recall please – in the AFL – going back as far as 1996, the Sydney Swans hosted Essendon in a ‘home’ Prelim final at the SCG – the Swans won by a point (kicked by PLugger after the siren) and progressed to the GF the following week at the MCG. It just so happened last year that all Melb teams after the first week of finals were the ‘home’ teams, and all matches then at the MCG.
The Lions – need to win this week, finished 6th, have a home final in the first week – and there after, see how it goes. With 4 Melb teams in the top 4 – there’s no huge ‘home’ advantage for 1st/2nd vs 3rd/4th. The Lions stand to have the most favourable first week finals match.
Tanking – (it’s the perception) – - only Melb has 4 wins or less, but also the longest injury list. All the other teams have won too many games and moved out of priority pick contention. Tanking….it’s sadly a media invention that get’s trotted out the same week each year in the footy media. A bit like beer strikes in the lead up to Xmas.
(cheap shots – - Melb is home to Kevin Muscat – - don’t go telling us about AFL cheap shots – - Muscie is the ‘king’ of cheap shots {leg breakers}. btw – agreed, the Buddy ‘hit’ seemed an accident and I’m astounded he’s facing 2 wks, and sadly, the current ’system’ – once activated – is ruddy inflexible. Including a limited terms of reference for the tribunal.)
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Sorry about the semi final dig then and I think all fans can accept the Grand Final in the MCG because it’s special to all Australians.
In regards to the cheap shots I wasn’t saying other codes were without sin but Simon definitely tried to give the impression that the AFL has no problems except not enough other countries play it. My criticisms aren’t meant to give the impression other games are perfect but according to Simon the only faults with AFL are that you can’t play for Australia much.
There is a lot of stuff in every game of AFL I have seen (not as bad as Hall of course)
that would be considered cheap shots in other codes and it’s very frustrating to watch. Other codes have it too, Football with the shirt pulling and League with the facial massage but there isn’t the tough man posturing that comes with it in AFL. It just makes you want the ref to say “fair enough whack him” it’s like every team has 4 Michael Ennis and 4 Robbie Savages.
I think tanking is more than just an allusion and good judges (former AFL coaches) believe it too. No over code in Australia offers such a reward for losing and there’s no doubt that team selections and tactics would be different if teams were fair dinkum. In Rugby League, Football and Rugby teams out of contention give a few younger players a go but compared to AFL well it’s farcical.
So sure Football has problems but AFL is hardly a perfect product either and it’s not just the Daily Telegraph brain washing that is stopping it taking over Australia 100%. Simon and Pip cant just make out that there games perfect and expect us to say “yes sir, thankyou very much”.
Michael C said | August 26th 2009 @ 6:48am | Report comment
The ‘cheap shots’ thing is interesting at the simple level of legal vs illegal contact from code to code and therefore the ’shades of grey’ with respect to the legal contact – - as, in every code, there are players constantly pushing the boundaries and it comes down to the umpires/refs interpretations on the day (or, the subsequent post match reviews by the ‘judicial’ process). Personally, I struggle watching Rugby Union, because of the level of illegal contact the get’s so often let go, I struggle with RL because of the contact over the shoulder (invariably clipping the head) that is let go and the ability to trip. I struggle because I have to remind myself of what I’m watching.
The tanking thing – - the main problem is the perception of rewards. And yes, that DOES need to be tinkered. However, clearly, the ‘mechanics’ of tanking have been happening since Jesus was a back pocket for the Jeruselum thirds. Teams who have no chance of making the finals have so often decided to play the kids, experiment the positions and allow stars with niggling injuries to go and get them treated/repaired ready for next year. That people try to claim all that as ‘tanking’ is just plain ridiculous.
The aspect of match day ‘under coaching’ is another question. That’s an issue that, if considered seriously enough, and could be related to ‘betting’ as well – - would be something to look at similar to horse racing when a jockey is charged with not giving his horse sufficient chance to win. That’s a whole can of worms of it’s own. Reality is, most media commentators have no idea of why the decisions were made on the given day in the coaches box. Recently Melbourne were picked on for having only about 50 interchange rotations compared to normal 90-100. Reality was they had a heap of players on the bench with niggly and season ending injuries. But, that truth was of no interest to the media.
Draft wise, there’s not that much difference between last and 3rd last. Except, last has all the pressure of pick number 1. The sad thing is the media pushes this so much, that fans start getting confused and wanting their team to lose. That’s just silly.
Michael C said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
additionally – 2006,
AFL finals –
3 games only at the MCG. 2 first round all Melb finals, and the GF.
The other 6 matches all intestate – including 2 semi finals at Subiaco (no footy in Melb that weekend), and prelims in Adelaide and Sydney (again, no footy in Melb that weekend).
So, cheeky is okay – - but, factual is better.
Juanita said | August 31st 2009 @ 10:49am | Report comment
Yes, Buddy Franklin … how many times have I watched NRL matches where the player leaves the ground semi or unconscious due to reckless tackles? Ask Anthony Quinn about the plastic discs in his neck and the fact that it was hardly reported by anyone in the days to come … I do want to say though that as a supporter of both codes I believe Franklin’s actions could have been clearly established had the careless and reckless rule been a part of the vernacular in assessing the ‘bump’ rule.
Robbos said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:53am | Report comment
Good post???? Definately not written by someone nth of the Murray.
Wallabies v Kiwis, best of the best? I thought the Sth Africans were world champions & undefeated in the Tri nations this year.
As for tribalism, this can happen in many ways, whether this be within a city (Melbourne AFL teams), state aganist state (RL SOO) or competiting at the highest level country v country (take your options from many int’l flavour games.
Ghost said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Hmm… some questionable perspectives in there mate…
The game is too low scoring for whom? Basketball fans perhaps?
And on AFL’s ‘best level of competition in the world’… structurally flawed argument as there is no alternative to that one league. Better to write ‘only level of competition in the world’ as one can’t impute relative quality when there is no point of comparison (and in those circumstances all you need is internal even-ness not any objective quality to make for a seemingly exciting comp).
Finally when Socceroos play Netherlands at SFS next month I’d say in terms of world sports you’ll be seeing a higher standard and importance match than NZ v Wallabies in Rugby Union, with respect. #1 vs #3 teams in a game where there are only 6 or 7 decent national teams is not the same standard as #3 vs #16 in a game truly played worldwide and where 20 or 30 national teams are of a really top-notch standard.
JF said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Of course, football in Australia does not have a single negative element!
Art Sapphire said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
At this stage of proceedings Pip is leading Adrian 253 to 27 in the Code War comments stakes race.
Pip, you have to remember did have one days headstart, but is making this up to Adrian by repeating the same comments on both threads
Now the figure to aim for is 554 comments.
Which is the record I set with my first ever, but cheeky, contribution on this wonderful forum.
http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/03/06/afl-in-panic-mode-new-afl-ad-campaign-takes-on-soccer/
As Adrian and Pip have belatedly found out, the best way to get a massive volume of comments is to mention that the AFL is under attack from football.
Thanks should go to Craig Foster and the SMH for publishing the piece.
So come on lads get commenting – records are made to be broken
Timmypig said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:04am | Report comment
“This is because every code has some inherent flaw and can’t cater to all the needs of the Australian sports follower.”
Simonjzw makes a pretty good point, although I’m not sure I’d have used “inherent flaw”. Not sure what I’d use in its place, but I agree with the essence. There is a notion that “if only this happened, and if only those people would report more fairly, and if only yada yada yada WE WOULD BE THE NUMBER 1 CODE”
Isn’t it time that one-eyed single Truth fans accepted that the entire notion of “THE NUMBER ONE CODE” is meaningless? Why does it matter – stripped down to the essential central truth – why does it matter to be the number one code measured by whatever datum or data? Is it the ego trip for the administrators? A desperate need for fans to have one’s own beliefs validated by the number of fellow-travellers?
And even if there is a purpose – it STILL DOESN’T MATTER. People shouldn’t take it personally when someone else doesn’t see the charms in the game they happen to adore. Jings Crivens!!!!
BTW I’ve just read Fozzie’s article (I don’t buy the Sunday tabloids) – what a load of tripe. I really thought he was smarter than that.
Republican said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:26am | Report comment
Spiros.
i believe you have exercised some Union bias with this lastest post but I do agree with you that the games patronage in Australia is inflated by the Kiwi, P.I and Saffa expat factor, significantly the latter being a criteria for allowing Perth the 4th Australian Super Franchise. This will also play a major role in the Melbourne franchises potential to share patronage of P.I and Kiwi extraction, that currently give the Storm someone to play to in Melbourne.
Union would struggle to survive in this country if it were not for the increasing Kiwi Migration to our fatal shores. I hazard to say that at least half of the 80 thou punters who turned out to watch the Wallas v All Blacks over the weekend in Sydney, were in fact NZers, which puts some honest perspective on the games status in Oz, Melbourne aside.
I read the Melborne rags when visiting that fair city and see no evidence that codes that are the exception there, do not receive a fair go, certainly they derive as much promotion as our game does from the League centric Brissy and Sydney press. In that respect it all balances out somehow and to Australian footy’s credit, the Lions and Swannies have been more successful in those traditional League demographics than League has been in Melbourne – without a shadow of a doubt.
I also concur with you that Soccer will eventually dominate throughout this country including in Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth ahead of the indigenous code however, I firmly believe that our game will continue to be supported well above that of the Rugby codes, which if anything may have to consider the hybrid road to survival, in a saturated and small market place like Oz.
NZ will also embrace Soccer ahead of Union and there is compelling evidence that suggests Union is already waning in popularity across the ditch. Who knows, Kiwis may forgo their anti Australian fervour enough to one day embrace our game, to the detriment of their beloved thugby, of course the worry there is that they will predicatbly exclaim to the world that they invented’ Australian Footy’, as is their cringing want.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I have always enjoyed reading your comments over the years Spiros.
True Tah said | August 26th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
What compelling evidence is that, if anything, the NZers are re-discovering their love for rugby, looking at some of the crowds in the Air New Zealand Cup.
In terms of ppopularity in NZ, futbol would come behind rugby, league, cricket and motor sports.
Davos said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:35am | Report comment
don’t forget to take into consideration, SBS’s TV rights for the Socceroos at WC’s, what are they worth, and the other rights they pay for to show football in this country, also need to consider ONE (channel 10) is now showing Bundesliga games and Serie A. What of ABC for w-league, it’s not for free.
These should be equated, as they are dollars being directly spent from this country for the football rights.
Fox – A-league, ACL, Asian Cup, WC qualifiers
ABC – W-League
SBS – FIFA World Cup’s – Mens, Women’s, U/20’s, UEFA Cup, Champions League and packaged games & highlights
ONE – Bundesliga & Serie A games
There is a bit of football on offer here.
I think thats the distinction between only A-League V’s AFL & RL as you put it, to a code being a game with a set of rules that are unified.
AFL can cuddle up with its’ seriously confused cousin of INTERNATIONAL RULES as it’s pinnacle
RL = well this is played really by two states in this country, New Zealand and Northern England, and it’s world cup, enough said!
Kurt said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Davos – actually the w-league is broadcast for free – I believe the federal government pays the ABC’s broadcast costs as part of their funding of the FFA, but there certainly isn’t any net revenue to soccer.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Davos,
As soon as you draw in international futbol comps you lose the argument. The battle for the codes is in Australia.
I think you’ll find that Aussie Rules/AFL is on Foxtel, Ch 7, Ch 9, Ch 10, ABC.
Redb
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
A tad unfair when you consider that international competitions are a legitimate threat to the A-League’s survival. You can’t just ignore them to suit your argument.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
Luke W,
Not sure that is relevant, Davos is trying to demonstrate the breadth of futbol to amaze with it’s global glory.
Go Dons!
Redb
Matt S said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:39am | Report comment
I think AFL gets a much better run in the papers particularly in Brisbane. Monday for example the AFL gets 3 pages to rugby league’s 5 with the match reports of non-Broncos/Lions games getting equal type space. I also doubt rugby league gets two full pages in the AGE every Monday as happens in the SMH for the Swans/AFL.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Well I dispute that, I was in QLD 3 days last week and found the AFL had one page in the Courier Mail about 6 pages back from the RL section. Would you like a copy?
I would also add that Brisbane has only one RL team and still managed a massive spread.
Redb
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Matt S
I said to Spiro above that the Storm and League pretty much get one page every day in the sport lift out (although today, it’s only a a third of a page) – I think that’s decent enough considering the level of support for the Storm and League in Melbourne.
Both the Lions and Swans have decent support in their respective cities.
Matt S said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:51am | Report comment
Davos, you may want to check out http://www.rlef.eu.com/
Have a look at the video for germany v italy. Maybe small stuff compared to a soccer international but great to see nearly all participants from the country they represent. Plus 4 brothers in the German squad must be a record?
Rugby league has had to battle discrimination, bannings (not allowed to be played in the british armed/civil services & in universitites). In the last 10 years it’s the largest growth game in both these areas and is accredited for the sudden growth of the game in Europe. The U/16’s Euro cup was just completed with the likes of Serbia, Czech Rep. & Russia competing against Scotland, Wales & England.
The only thing holding league back is funding.
cuzybro said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
British armed services rugby league teams have tour both oz and NZ a few times in the last decade
Michael C said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:52am | Report comment
I thought codes wars started in London across 1862/1863 when the dribblers and the handlers couldn’t reach consensus.
And then code wars intensified when the handlers fought amongst themselves to provide us League and Union and a century of antagonism and references to playing or not during WW1 and stuff that happened in occupied France.
We Melbourne folk seem sometimes a little astonished at the code specific hatred of other sports because we don’t necessarily understand it (the politics).
simonjzw said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:58am | Report comment
I’m happy to concede a few points made in response to my post but I think the gist of my argument remains true – no code provides the Australian Sports fan with the complete package. Every code has something about it that doesn’t sit right with quite a few Australian sports fans. And every code has things that all sports fans admire.
Add in the nature of traditional tribal support for teams (esp AFL and to a lesser extent the NRL) and what we have is an environment where each of the four codes will attract support. And it will be based on individual personal decisions.
For me the A League holds no interest because I know I can watch better quality elsewhere.
The local team I get excited about is St. Kilda (with good reason this year!). And I have a soft spot for Wests Tigers in the NRL.
The state team I get excited about is the NSW Blues State of Origin Team.
And the national team I most like to follow is the Wallabies (although if the Socceroos make the World Cup I’m with them).
And of course there are aspects of each game that I don’t like and many that I love.
Davos said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
I can watch better quality elsewhere, however I will go down to the local club and watch and support for the tribalism factor, its not all about entertainment.
Millster said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
Simon – as Ghost implied somewhere else, doesn’t your own statement about the HAL ‘I can watch better quality elsewhere’ worry you also then about watching NRL or AFL? Just because those are very small codes by world standard with the highest comp (in AFL’s case the only comp) being in Australia doesn’t mean that the basic athletic or sporting qualities in those comps are all that good either. The only difference is that ’soccer’ gives you the opportunity to realise that the player pool may not always be world standard, simply because there is a world standard to make direct comparisons against.
Do you kind of get what I’m saying? In extremis… if I today decide to start playing a game that I name ‘Millster-ball’ with 4 of my mates then I may be the worlds best at that. But that does not make me a world class athlete by any objective measure. I’m only ‘worlds best’ because I’m playing some obscure thing with a small and localised player pool. I’m using an extreme hypothetical but this is always on my mind when I see AFL or NRL… I always ask myself ‘am I really seeing quality or just something that is relatively mediocre, but I don’t know any better, and the even-ness between teams makes it seem somewhat competitive’…
Thats not taking away from people’s love for AFL or NRL due to the local / tribal / family roots factor (and by the way that’s why I love my A-League club – it doesn’t have to be the best team, it just has to be my team). But as any statistician or population biologist would tell you, inferring quality from a small and isolated sample size or population that rarely if ever comes up against external competition is a pretty silly thing to do.
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
There is no doubt that both the AFL and NRL have great athletes, but you can’t classify them as world class because they don’t compete with the world. I’m not being racist here in any way, but genetically Africa generally produces the world’s best athletes. You only have to look at the NFL, with a much larger player pool to see that in the positions where athletic skills are most important (wide receivers for instance), it is largely dominated by African Americans. Who was the last white runner to even compete in a 100m final?
On another note, not just in sheer athletic skill, but NRL “supercoach” Jack Gibson actually revolutionised NRL coaching by going to America and seeing the way things are done over there. He implemented science theory and new tactics and became probably the greatest coach in rugby league history.
Michael C said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
Good point – however, the US tend to over specialise positions. Who is the greater athlete, Usain Bolt, Steve Hooker? Who was the greater ahtlete, Daley Thompson or Carl Lewis? How specialised or generalised do we judge? Bolt get’s to run 100, 200 and 400. Hooker only has one ‘event’. Perhaps they need 3 categories of Pole Vault based on 3 different styles of pole – then Hooker can be rated even higher because he can win more medals.
What the AFL CAN claim is that as a game – it tests you in ways no other game does. When you then consider the international standard pedigrees of some of the athletes who have concentrated on playing AFL (or NRL or whatever) – you know that you have high standard athletes. The next element is that of the actual intensity of the contest. A lot of Olympic soccer that was on tele last year was far from ‘world standard’ in intensity – when I switched b/w the AFL and Olympics. A LOT of international sports get’s over rated.
We know that a Sheffield Shield match b/w Victoria, QLD or NSW will be a higher standard contest than one b/w Bangladesh and the West Indies (sadly, at the moment).
We know too, that overseas, the continent of Australia – in most places – would be made up of 5,10, even 20 sovereign nations. Okay, perhaps we’re 50 million population short.
But, is Collingwood vs Geelong world class compared to a FIFA WC qualifier b/w Andorra and Luxemborg?
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
But who’s too say that the HAL guys aren’t more skilful than the AFL guys despite 150 Aussies overseas. I think the AFL and NRL guys because of the nature of their sport are better athletes, you wouldn’t make it on the bench these sports without being pretty good athletes but how good are they skill wise?
I can admire the top AFL players as People like Paul Roos, Buddy franklin and Jonathon Brown are clearly great sportsmen but at my School we had a guy that despite dabbling in everything and I played indoor football with him he wouldn’t be able to make our very average school football team.
His main sport was Aussie Rules but I think even if he dedicated himself just to football he would only be a marginal player for us and would never have made it too even State league Level…. he went on to play 99 AFL games.
The rugby league guys I have close up dealings with were all pretty good at all sports and none of them made it into first grade. Hmm perhaps NSW and QLD is just better at sport as we have a big chunk of the cricket team and the socceroos so we have higher standards. Probably explains why Victorian kids do better in academia.
Clearly the AFL comp is good enough to be entertaining which is all that matters but I think the ad where AFL players are bedazzling all the athletes of other codes is pie in the sky.
It’s a good game loved by many in oz but so is rugby league and football
Michael C said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:47am | Report comment
But who’s too say that the HAL guys aren’t more skilful than the AFL guys despite 150 Aussies overseas.
skills are technical aspects of specific games. You don’t really compare skills as refined in those games with different imperatives as otehr games.
Pure skill and natural talent is sometimes no more than that 4 letter word “Potential”.
Victoria has struggled in cricket because all the top athletes have tended to opt for footy (or basketball, and then footy). That’s why NSW and QLD have dominated the 6′4″ plus fast bowling stocks for sometime now…….that, and we all know that NSW cricketers on debut get two packages, one contains their Blues cap, and the other, a brown paper bag, contains their baggy green cap.
btw – seriously though – we DO know certain things, off field spending and development and sports science is super important, and the AFL spending and resources devoted in that area is greater than the NRL, HAL etc.
re The AFL ad is a bit of fun but highlights the variety of ‘attributes’ required, the variety of ‘contests’ and ’skills’ faced and required……..surely you don’t take it too seriously when Kosi is taking a speccie in the hands over the top of a group of soccer players (unless you’re comparing him with a goalkeeper??). Just enjoy that ad as a cute bit of computer graphics.
The Link said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
Millster, I wouldn’t necessarily lump AFL and NRL together in that comparison. RL has a nieche international presence, but its still 100 times greater than AFL. Going further you can make a rudimentary comparison between RL and RU players, given RU’s greater (although still nieche) international presence.
Millster said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
Link – Sure, fair enough. My point in any case is not about some specific comparison down to the last decimal place. Its more a philosophical reminder that we have to be VERY careful about ascribing quality to anything that has little or no external point of comparison.
The other thing I’ll say to be fair is that AndyRoo is spot on when he looks for ‘good enough to be entertaining which is all that matters’. There is no doubt that AFL and NRL both fit in that camp and give a good entertaining product. And to some extent we’re all a bit dumb to be setting up code war competition where we have to make the comparisons that raise all these issues of external validity etc. Things can have major structural flaws and still be bloody entertaining at a superficial level.
My other concession to the ‘local’ sports is that one benefit of them being so closed is that the best of the best don’t go anywhere else, that is within the player pool for those codes. Whereas 150-odd of the best Australian footballers have elected to try their luck abroad. Off course we can get into endless discussions about whether player #151 in the world game is higher quality than player #1 in one of the small local codes but that is a pointless and unsolveable discussion.
Ok signing off now, work to do. Cheers guys.
Dave1 said | November 9th 2009 @ 6:31pm | Report comment
Victoria aren’t struggling at cricket, they won the shield last season and finished second in the ford ranger cup. They also made the semi finals of this years champions league
True Tah said | August 26th 2009 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
Luke W,
if you want to bring in the NFL argument, then you would have to argue Pacific Islanders are the best athletes in the world, they did a study, and found that if a player of American football was of Islander heritage, then he was 52 times more likely to make it to the top grade than a player of Non-Islander heritage.
And there are plenty of Islander lads playing professional league and union throughout Australia.
The Guru said | August 25th 2009 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
I like your point Millster,
perhaps another comparison could be the difference between say watching the Australian athletic championships and the IAAF World Championships.
Republican said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:59am | Report comment
I was visiting Townsville over the July School break and was exposed to the Courier Mail on a daily basis.
The AFL coverage paled to that of the NRL yet the Lions have a very healthy support base which is competitive with the Broncos. Based on this rationale, that the Storm exist in Melbourne at all is bemusing to say the least.
Dogs Of War said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
When you say the Lions are competitive with the Broncos, do you mean crowds at the game, or in all facets? TV audiences for the Lions are dismal compared to the Bronco’s, which gives a much better indicator as to the overall support for each team in the region.
Storm in Melbourne have never had a good run on TV in Melbourne, so it’s hard to say how well they would be received. That’s half of Rugby League’s problem, getting the right exposure. Hopefully digital TV and the rules are relaxed somewhat too allow AFL and NRL to be shown in a live or near live timeslot like they are in other states on an alternate channel in the “Foreign” markets.
Republican said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
Millster.
Since when did quantity equate to quality?
Maccas is very well patronised for all sorts of reasons however quality is not one of those.
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
If I had a dollar for every time someone compared the world game to McDonalds…
Michael C said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
The flaw in the McDonalds comparision is the standardised product/quality across the board (well, pretty well with some minor local tinkering – - – ‘A Royale with cheese’….
at any rate, if McDonalds in Australia were 3rd rate compared to McDonalds in the USofA, then, we’d probably be favouring an alternative offering of better quality product/produce WITHIN our domestic market. ANd if we visited the USofA, then we’d seek to dine on McDonalds over there.
So, obviously that comparison breaks down. McDonalds in Australia is a far better relative quality to international McDonalds than is the HAL to top international soccer.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
So AFL is Red Rooster, i.e we can’t compare it to overseas because it hasn’t spread there yet but take our word for it it is Gourmet despite some Irish Lads with no qualifications being able to come in and cook a chicken pretty well.
And you might think that Macdonalds and Red Rooster are around the same quality but Oseas Macdonalds (oseas Football) make a better burger than Maccas (Australian Football) so we should only eat Red Rooster and dream about one day visiting America.
Lucky I have allready ahd lunch, and no fast food involved.
Michael C said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
I think you’re on the mark!!
And, point of it all – - don’t support Red Rooster just because it’s local – - but, don’t discount it – just because it’s local.
At the end of the day – you can only eat the chicken breast in your hand,
something about a chicken in the hand is worth 3 on tv from Germany.
Millster said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
Millster said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Republican you do not even start to understand my point.
The maccas analogy – at best (because its an idiotic analogy) – only apllies to matters of audience popularity.
Whereas my argument has nothing to do with audiences and is only based on elite player populations.
But if you do want to go in that direction, the AFL is also ‘very well patronised for all sorts of reasons…’ – not saying this as a particular dig at that code but be careful of using arguments that can so easily be turned against you.
Republican said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
Luke W
For what its worth I neither like Maccas or the so called’ World Game’ but do accept that I am in the minority on both counts.
I am thankful for the choices still at our disposal which is really what I hope to convey in my ramblings. I sincerely believe that we have dumbed consumer choice down by creating an illusion of more when in fact what we have is more of the same and less of the different.
Sport is no exception and the more parochial brands i.e. the Australian game should in no way be de valued becuase they dont meet some international criteria set by population bios or a corporate rationale, that would otherwise render them irrelevant.
I dont care that the Australian game is not a globally marketable brand, more power to it and those who support it. The challenge is to simply maintain the national conviction to do so, against all odds, especially in respect of the incessant propoganda that sets out to derail it by appealing to inherent insecurities that still resonate throughout Australian culture.
Millster said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
You see now I would argue that our adherence to sports where we are never going to be tested against the world is a reflection of our insecurities not a counter to them… surely the answer to showing (and believing in) a confident Australia is to take the world on in those pursuits that actually matter, that are common to many nations, rather than staying curled up and inwardly focussed on our own little local things to which others can’t relate.
To me its not about international criteria, population bios or corporate rationales. Its about taking our place in the world in a positive and engaged way. I guess my views on football are a reflection of my broader malaise that Australia often doesn’t do itself many favours in this respect.
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
OK, so you prefer to eat Hungry Jacks burgers…. and you love the safety of living in a cocoon… How will that help you to grow and embrace what the world has to offer on the big stage…? OK you don’t care … But we have an Australian Football community who actually do care and want to move forward…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
KB -
funny thing is, part of what the world has to offer is a collection of regionalised cocoons that add to the rich tapestry of what the world has to offer.
Thankfully – the world is far more sophisticated than a single global stage – - heck, again, Eurovision prooves that!!! (or disprooves depending upon definition of ’sophisticated’).
davido said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Damn you all! Dont you know the code war has been won and lost already!
The number one sport in Australia, and you guessed it, is Lawn Bowls!
Dogs Of War said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
I do enjoy a sport in which I can enjoy a beer and a smoke whilst in play. Probably why I enjoy darts as well.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
DOW
are you able to balance your beer on your pot belly, while holding a dart in one hand and a fag in the other?
or do you hold the dart in one hand, beer in the other, and have the fag hanging out your mouth, smoke in your eyes, a la Andy Capp?
Dogs Of War said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Well you have to put down your beer occasionally, and pubs make me smoke in the designated section these days. Though it has to be the Andy Capp method if you are going to do all 3 at once, that has been proven time and time again to be the mark of a champion.
Art Sapphire said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
The mark of a champion these days will be to hit triple 20 from the designated smoking area.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Yes, true enough – it is the classic way!!
Republican said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
I dont know whether to laugh or cry; that anyone would seriously deconstruct my analogy with such gusto.
This only reinforces to me that many commentators here must surley be bankers who have absolutely no idea or concept of the social and cultural virtues I espouse.
I do despair that we have come to this.
good night and good luck.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
No hang in there Republican, its’ after lunch the cash has been totalled and balances to date. Actually if many of us were bankers we wouldnt be back at the computer this early.
This site has a northern bias (rugby union links) with only a handful of regular AFL fans so it can sometimes seem lob sided in opinion. but hey at some time in the future they will have to face the fact that Aussie Rules is here to stay.
Redb
Millster said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
Republican – it is simply because your analogy is so false. And as per my reply to you above, I do not believe that the word ‘virtues’ applies necessarily. Our clinging to our local passtimes can be as easily interpreted negatively as it can positively.
Republican said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Dogs of War.
Do the Lions get a fair go on the Tele in Brissy? I venture to say they do not. I am referring specifically to the gate the Lions attract at the Gabba compared with the Broncos.
This is very competitive yet the Storm can only muster around 10G at Olympic Pk and this after a decade in Melbourne.
The Swannies also fare better in this respect than do the Storm, by a country mile.
I acknowledge that League maintains the status quo in those two cities however Aust footy has certainly made significant in roads into these demographics and especially in Brissy, certainly compared to what League has been able to do in Melbourne.
They will both no doubt be mindful to watch out for the sleeping giant i.e. lawn bowls, to be sure.
Dogs Of War said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
Olympic Park is the worst football ground in the country bar none. Not to mention that it only comfortably holds 15K max, and after that gets a bit stuffy. New ground in the right configuration for the sport will help heaps in growing the supporter base.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
DOW,
No doubt the new International Rules stadium will add crowds through a curiosty factor and perhaps get Storms’ average around the 15k mark with better facilitiies and comfort.
But like the Titans are seeing now, even with success, and a brand new stadium it’s not always that easy and the Titans have little direct competition at the moment. Storm play in the AFL season and often go head to head with AFL games.
Redb
Dogs Of War said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
What is happening to the Titans is more to do with the price of the tickets. It’s one thing the AFL have right, let the kids in cheaply. It’s just too expensive to take the kids to a game of League.
Overall the Titans have some of the most expensive tickets in the game. Maybe when the AFL comes in with there team, and adds a bit of competition for the sporting dollar to the market, things may change.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
The Lions get a great go on TV. They are on free to air every week at a good time (Live I think)
When they are on Saturday Night FTA there is no competition from other sports and I occasionally see a bit of it if by some miracle I have control of the remote. They are also simulcast on Triple M so that people like me occasionally catch them on the radio (at that time its all remixes on the other FM stations so I normally have a listen if I am driving)
This is not by accident and it is because the AFL is the best run sport in Australia.
In comparison the Storm are at such a bad time on Melbourne TV they may as well just be on pay TV like the HAL and you need that FTA exposure to grow the game. That’s why I think that 10k that the Storm get is pretty admirable and the 18k that the Victory get is surprising.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
So when are we going to get a consensus, work out there’s not enough football on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights and divy those up between the codes.
Steve said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Soccer TV rights deal expected to rival AFL
April 16, 2008 12:00am
THE value of soccer’s television rights is tipped to rival the AFL when a new deal is negotiated in 2013.
Leading media buyer and analyst Harold Mitchell said soccer could surpass rugby league’s $500 million deal.
Mitchell, who advised the AFL when it signed the $780 million TV deal that started last season, said Football Federation Australia’s bargaining power could top the $100 million a year mark.
“The soccer rights should be a $100 million a year sport by 2013,” Mitchell said.
“It could be equal to the AFL by then if it is properly presented.
“No doubt it could surpass the NRL. The reason is it can grow into all the states, southern and western.
“Where the NRL is very strong in New South Wales and Queensland, soccer can grow into new areas more easily and readily.
“Also, what’s developing is that mums want their kids to play soccer. They don’t like thuggery, so it’s perfectly positioned as a family sport.
“It’s minimal contact, of high appeal and it is a fast-moving game for TV, plus it’s short.”
Professional Footballers’ Association chief executive Brendan Schwab said that if A-League teams were introduced in west Sydney, Melbourne and the Gold Coast before the next deal, the TV rights would be lucrative.
“The question is when, not if,” Schwab said about surpassing the NRL’s TV rights.
“We may not be No. 1, but the key is being the No. 2 sport in every Australian market.
“The Socceroos can be the No. 1 national team in Australia, with a regular audience of 1 million and up to 3.5 million for big games.
“Packaged together, these media rights can provide a commercial platform that will sit only behind the AFL in the medium to long term.”
Soccer’s current $130 million seven-year deal with Fox Sports was signed after just one A-League season
With the AFL deal expiring in 2011, the NRL’s in 2012 and soccer in 2013, Mitchell predicted vigorous negotiations.
“It won’t be as clear-cut as the past. The multimedia platforms that are available will be a vital part of it,” Mitchell said.
——————————————————————————————————————————————–
Football ‘worth more than league’
By David Davutovic
April 16, 2008
THE battle of Australia’s football codes is not consigned to western Sydney, with football’s TV rights tipped to rival that of the AFL when a new deal is nutted out in 2013.
Leading media buyer and analyst Harold Mitchell claims that football’s deal may surpass the NRL’s $500 million deal and rub shoulders with the AFL.
Mitchell, the man who advised the AFL when it signed the unprecedented $780 million TV deal, predicted that Football Federation Australia’s bargaining power would top the $100 million-a-year mark by the time the rights are up for renewal.
“The soccer rights should be a $100 million-a-year sport by 2013,” Mitchell said. “It could be equal to the AFL by then if it is properly presented.
“No doubt it could surpass the NRL. The reason is it can grow into all the states, southern and western. Where the NRL is very strong in New South Wales and Queensland, soccer can grow into new areas more easily and readily. Also what’s developing is that mums want their kids to play soccer.
“They don’t like thuggery so it’s perfectly positioned as a family sport. It’s minimal contact. It’s of high appeal and it is a fast-moving game for TV. Plus it’s short.”
His argument is supported by the Professional Footballers Association, whose research indicates that football’s TV rights – the A-League and Australia matches packaged together – will eventually surpass those of the NRL.
PFA chief executive Brendan Schwab, a former vice-president of AFL club Richmond, believes the TV rights will be lucrative if A-League teams are introduced in western Sydney, Melbourne and the Gold Coast before the next deal.
“The question is when, not if,” Schwab said in reference to surpassing the NRL’s TV rights.
“We may not be No1, but the key is being the No.2 sport in every Australian market.
“The Socceroos can be the No.1 national team in Australia, with a regular audience of one million and up to 3.5 million for big games.
“Packaged together, these media rights can provide a commercial platform that will sit only behind the AFL in the medium to long term.”
Football’s current seven-year, $130 million deal with Fox Sports was lucrative at the time it was signed – after just one A-League season.
But it was also signed on the eve of the 2006 World Cup, and Mitchell said the rights even now would be worth considerably more.
In football’s favour is the fact that FFA chief executive Ben Buckley was the man who brokered the AFL’s $780 million deal.
—————————————————————————————————————————-
I think I’ll take the word of the most knowledgeable person in Australian Media over harry and sally on their keyboard commenting on things they know BUGGER ALL ABOUT.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
Steve
that’s a nice line at the end – I’ll leave it to others to spot the obvious flaws in this article – sorry mate – it has less credibility than Harry and Sally.
megatron said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Pippinu, what’s your agenda here? You essentially wrote a very similar article to this thread here?
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
Megatron,
Ditto, a well timed comment as Steve… Fozzie’s prediction will be realised in 20 years..
~~~~~~~
KB.
Dave said | September 9th 2009 @ 8:12pm | Report comment
Fozzie’s prediction will not be realised in 20 years
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Megatron
Look carefully at both those articles, and then if you want, you can ask me to highlight the obvious flaws, but I can assure you, if anyone has an agenda – it is not I.
megatron said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
Pipp which article Craig Fosters or Adrians here?
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
I am talking about these two – but I prefer it if others dissect it.
Otherwise, I’m accused of having an agenda, or smelling the fear, etc etc
megatron said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
I don’t get what issue you have with it?
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Oh really…. CYSTF
~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
Don’t hide behind acronyms – if you want to repeat your idiotic and meaningless cliches – just spell it out – repeat it over and over if it makes you feel any better – but doesn’t really change much.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
Sorry pip, but the debate has shifted.
Harold Mitchell has also said he beleives the AFL could get $1 billion for the next TV rights. This has been challenged. Although I think its entirely possible given the last rights increased from $500M to $780M without the addition of new teams. Still a few options like more live games, more TV friendly scheduling,etc.
I think Mitchells’ comments assume the A League can make the transition to free to air TV by 2013 perhaps in early 2008 this looked possible. I think it will struggle at this rate. Maybe in the next rights?
Redb
Steve said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
I not just the The A-League. Don’t forget the National Football Team. They rate $3M viewers at 2am in the middle of winter.
Throw in TV rights for the Asian Cup [The Japan+Oman games were the highest rating Pay-TV games @ the time].
Throw in ACL games
exhibition games [ie Beckham/galaxy, man utd/barca liverpool tour]
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
The national team is a great draw card, but I don’t think they play enough games. I didn’t think the Asian Cup or club friendlies would be included.
If there was something like what America is getting now Barca, Inter and the like for friendlies that would be a pretty good product I hadn’t considered.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:52pm | Report comment
Steve,
The Socceroos are gold no problem there. But how many times do they play and how often will it be the ‘A’ team playing (World Cup aside) ?
ACL games, Asian Cup – please no-one really cares outside the diehards and certainly not in the next 3 years. to date these have not captured the public’s imagination with the exception of Adelaide United which was a very local story but now forgotten.
The ACL features 1 and 2 HAL teams from the year before it is structurally off balance.
The A League was to be the main vehicle, big number of games, national footprint. I dont think it is hitting the heights expected at this stage and probably not a big enough profile to be demanding NRL money net alone AFL.
Redb
Steve said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
NUMNUTS, the ASIAN cup games were Foxtel’s HIGHEST RATING TV programs at the time. And still rates in the top 8. To say that no-one really cares about the Asian Cup outside the diehards shows your speaking for yourself NOT the 450,000 that watch Australia Lose to Japan in the QF. The Asian Cup went from an ‘unknown’ event to TV ratings GOLD. What would have the ratings been if Australia made it too the semi/final. I would say a lot more than the Dees v Dockers on FNF.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
listen here boyo,
A dozen Socceroo games a year aint gunna cut it, you need the A League to be more successful to demand the big TV dollars.
Redb
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Steve,
a well timed comment… Fozzie’s prediction will be realised in 20 years… Cheers….
~~~~~~~~
KB
The Link said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
Football will take another 2-3 cycles to get even close to NRL TV rights.
There’s only so many times the Socceroos can play.
The A-League + ACL is going busted’s on Pay TV, with little proposition of high FTA ratings when it transitions over any time soon.
This article also assumes the NRL will get the same again – highly unlikey as they clearly got unders on the last deal
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Link,
I think you should read “Midfielders post” again… Football is still a work in progress and has more international avenues then any code in Australia … Club and Country…
btw it was reported that Fox HAL has already grown 9% with Fox views..
~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
And what Link has said is just the half of it.
The Link said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
KB, agree that structurally Football is best placed to grow out of the football codes, however it will take years of growth for it to compete with the other codes for TV rights $$$.
If there is growth in A-League viewers then it is off an extremly low base. It barely registers in the top 50 weekly shows.
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
Link,
As Fozzie has written no one is under any illusions; time is on Football’s side he said in 20 yrs, however, that’s a bit conservative in my view, I would place it within a 15 year time frame….
~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:25pm | Report comment
Under no illusions? He’s absolutely drowning under the weight of his own illusions.
Michael C said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:51pm | Report comment
Interesting you say it’s the best placed to grow – - I might argue otherwise – that it’s the nearest to it’s national maturity – - simply to say, that the NRL has an obvioius chasm b/w NSw and QLD and the rest – - thus, unlimited growht potential outside of NSW and QLD. AFL likewise within NSw and QLD.
Soccer though, might have already peaked nationally. And especially within the confines of it’s ‘timeslot’, and it’s structural (HAL vs Socceroos vs International leagues/tourneys) limitations.
Re TV rights $$$ – - – again, the evidence from around the world is to suggest that soccer is pay tv fodder only – - and in Australia, there’s not much reason to suggest a massive bidding war for the HAL for sometime yet at least.
Now – were the other codes to stand still during the next 20 years…..then Foster might have something – - however, ’tis not a sporting vacuum and the lay of the land in 20 years time……geeze, who knows.
Dave said | September 9th 2009 @ 8:08pm | Report comment
Harold Mitchell is wrong
Midfielder said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
The future battle plans if there are such things will be based around the following. I also tried to list each section on who where currently the most favoured in each area.
International :
Football 9 national teams, World Cup, Asian Cup, Olympics, Qualifers + friendlies
Cricket one international side, WC + Tests
Rugby Union two national sides (All ages & School Boys), WC + tests
Rugby League two national sides, WC + tests
Club International :
RU Super 15
Football Asian Champions League
World Club Challenge
State V State :
RL SOO
Cricket – Shield
AFL SOO
Local Domestic:
AFL 16 growing 18 teams
RL 16 teams growing to something
A-League 10 growing to 14 teams
Local Park :
Football next year in the FA Cup competition…
Junior Player No’s:
Football & Cticket all States very strong,
AFL, very strong Tas, Vic, SA, WA, NT, weak in other states
RL the opposite of AFL
RU , midely strong in NSW & ACT & QLD , weak in other states.
Michael C said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:13pm | Report comment
Middie -
if you’re listing ‘9 national teams’ for soccer – - gawd, give us a break. The Socceroos, Matildas, Olyroos??? what else??
Cricket – has the TEst team, the One Day team, and the T20 team. And the womens national cricket team etc etc. If you want to count the Olyroos then let’s count Australia A, or the Australian Under 19s team.
State vs State – cricket wise again, you’ve left it at ’shield’, but omitted domestic one dayers and domestic T20 matches that rival or surpass HAL matches for attendance – - and I believe a regular domestic T20 season providing prime time Friday night matches each week for 8-10 weeks could become a major plank for cricket.
re Junior Player numbers -
are we counting boys, or boys and girls combined? Simply to say that traditionally, soccer is more likely to be played by girls than the other football codes and in recent times very large portions of growth in overall soccer participation was in the area of womens participation.
I’m just wondering whether it’s felt that there should or should not be a distinction? (I reckon the times, they are a changin, and soccer got the head start – - previously in Vic for example, the relationship b/w footy and netball ensured that girls footy wasn’t really encouraged – - but, perhaps because girls soccer has come along, there’s greater demand now for girls footy and a greater reason for the AFL to encourage and grow girls/womens footy).
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
I love my Football but no way is it worth as much as the NRL. If you ever wanted to launch a rival to Fox the rights too AFL or the NRL would be key. Get one of those and they can carry a product.
Steve said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:36pm | Report comment
How many years have you worked in the Australian TV Media roo? 40 years like Mr. Mitchell?
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
WellI am guessing I will be closer to 30 million a year than 100 million.
I do have a relevent degree but hardly used it but I did work in the second mortgage industry on the Gold Coast for a few years which made me pretty good at picking out spruikers and bs claims
TammyS said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
I agree AndyRoo. The swans and lions get pretty decent coverage in Brisbane and sydney compared to what the melbourne storm get in melbourne so I think its unfair to compare them until the storm do get better coverage that is equal to what the swans and lions get up here.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
How is it unfair, it is what it is. Storm have won 2 flags and are owned by the biggest daily in the country which happens to be the Herald Sun in Melbourne.
Culturally the game had no grass roots in Melbourne.
Redb
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
TV is much more powerful than Newspaper/Radio
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
yeah but it will be head to head with the AFL, Ch 9 won’t risk it.
Next time around I’d expect the digital channels to play some part.
Redb
Dogs Of War said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:56pm | Report comment
I would assert that News Ltd do no favours for Rugby League, for the 6th time this season, they dumped the Friday night replays of the NRL games in favour of other live sports. Leaving people to rely on Channel 9 telecasts, and no hope of watching them at any decent hour for those in other states that don’t get the live telecasts. AFL on the other hand gets the Friday night matches into Sydney and Brisbane live due to Foxtel being allowed/forced to show it on Ch 518.
Yeah, News Ltd is always doing Rugby League heaps of favours
Steve said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
ITS UNFAIR when NO radio station picks up Storm games, unlike the ABC/TRIPLE M covering all the swannies/lions H&A games. NOT because of local demand but because the afl FORCE them to if they [abc/triple m] want to broadcast afl games in Vic,sa,wa
ITS UNFAIR when their a swannies story in the sydney 10 news every day and the 7 news most days. Where the storm would be lucky to receive ONE Tv story by their Official sponsor [no less] in C9. And that story might run for 10 seconds.
So what if the HS own the Storm? Do we see more storm stories in any particular week then stories of the WB, dees, kangaroos. Nope.
Rugby League may have no grass roots in Melbourne but afl have no more than that in Sydney/Brisbane.
When the swannies/lions out-rate “willy wonka and the chocolate factory ” give me a call. But first one step at a time. First the swannies/lions need to out-rate the Iron Chef
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Steve
Well, you’re mostly right, but if you wander over to Trumper Park in Paddington, you’ll see above the pavillion: East Sydney Football Club, est. 1889.
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
Steve,
The Australian Rules had small grass roots in Sydney and Brisbane (bigger than Syd) before teams were transplanted and mismanaged very poorly by the VFL/AFL. That is a fact.
What’s wrong with Iron Chef, the American version is crap i admit.
Redb
oikee said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Dumb down Rugby league all you like, we have a 10 year international agenda. Starting with a 4 nations this year. A 4 nation contest has at least 4 games to televise when played overseas. When they play in your own country they have 10 games to televise. Add to that a growing world cup, which has 12 teams planned for 2013. Now this does not sound real big to some, but it has not happened for 10 years. I would expect a larger slice of the pie next T/V deal. They have 3 years to further grow our pacific neibours games also, If PNG ever get included into the nrl, you can add 6 million veiwers onto our veiwing figures. You may laugh at that, but if it happened, league would over-nite become the number 1 code in Australiasia.
They are working on the PNG team as we speak. It will make the Gold Coast and Western Sydney seem like chicken feed.
It already has the backing of 2 governments. A origin Jersey put paid to that, along with League, i would also say soccer would benifit greatly. At least then we could put paid to this “who has the biggest code crap here in OZ”.
And finally we could get some sleep from AFL punters, wanting to take over the world. Redb? Micheal C?
AFL had a story today about attacking league heartlands with a 5 million dollar training centre for each city. “Attacking”
Will the war ever end might have been a better title. Maybe in 20 years when and if soccer is the number 1 code.
I dont think rugby league ever will be number 1, but number 3 is alright by me. As long as the games played so i can enjoy the sport. Has anyone seen a picture of Dave Taylor without his shirt, he looks like a greek god. They should market that for the Storm games, the greeks would love that.
Ghost said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
Oikee – good to see you wade in with a pro-League view but just a couple of small things between you and I… and I promise not to tell anyone else and make you look foolish…
1. PNG’s entire population, babies, children, geriatrics and all is 6mill. Realistically, even the most wildly successful and dominant sport up there could therefore expect perhaps 600K to 1mill of those people viewing on a week-by-week basis. (That would be a glorious achievement though for RL).
2. On commercial terms I’ll bet my life that the GDP of PNG is less than the GDP of either the Gold Coast or Western Sydney regional areas so hard to know whether the business model stacks up even if you do get the audience figures above.
3. Regarding “number 1 code in Austrasia”… ummm… if you want the defined area to be Australasia then you include the western pacific and most of south-east Asia. Football would be #1 by an enormous margin, with RU, RL and AFL a long way back but all quite even I imagine.
Crosscoder said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
Code wars?Phoney wars perhaps.Everyone clambering for a slice of the TV monies and sponsorship.
FWIW AFL in Sydney gets and has had a decent run by the print media (News and SMH) plus the electronic media since the Swans lobbed into town.That is fact,and that happened well before they won a grand final.
From the day the Swans danced around the OPHouse,considering their size in the sporting scheme of things in Sydney have done quite nicely fronm a media perspective.Yes they get decent crowds after 20 years(for years they had Storm size crowds in a decent stadium with FTA and media support) ,but the Tv ratings in the Harbour city are abysmal.No wonder the AFL wants another team here to try and push the ratings up.The swans crowds have remained fairly static in the last couple of years.
On average there are at least 2 pages of AFL in the weekend sunday papers,about the same for a league ,ditto RU,a and 4-5 on rugby league.
Yes the grassroots in Vic for the Storm/rl is small,but is growing and getting into the schools.Have to start from somewhere.No station in either Brisbane or Sydney will try to put on another code against the NRL on friday night.The Storm rarely if ever crack a FTA match,let alone one at a decent hour in Melbourne,plus play out of a dump of a stadium til the end of this year.A private consortium wants to buy in ,suggesting there is more than enough room for growth.Who knows maybe the successful next Tv station tenderer,might actually show rl and the Storm at civilised hours ,to further grow the game,and fans and sponsorship.
I wouldn’t be too concerned about a couple of smaller Titan’s crowds (which have still been around the 20,000 mark in the main).Why? eg they played the bottom of the table Sharks at 2-00pm on a Sunday afternoon when it was 30 degrees.They will be getting a home semi final ,which one suggests will be a sellout.
Rugby league FTA(despite midnight viewing in AFL states) and pay Tv ratings(wwhich it dominates) continue to grow.For Mitchell to suggest that the A League will be worth as much as the AFL and more than the rugby league based on the continuous good TV ratings,I suggest he is smoking the funny stuff.
Spiro brings up the demographic argument again.There was a survey done a couple of years back,which showed two things:
1) rugby league has on average the highest number of supporters with the highest disposable income in western sydney, higher than the rest of Sydney(eg high mortgages)
2) Rugby league also has a following of a large number of people in the high income group (on a par with ru) but behind ru in the highest income group by a mere 5%.Check the individual sponsors for the individual clubs as a starting point.
A point of interest noted again a couple of years ago,that the millionaires’ factory Macquarie Bank,had a well supported tipping competition:the NRL.
Despite the off field dramas rl has had to contend with this year,TV ratings are up,ditto crowds and merchandising and i understand participation.Hardly a sign of a code losing a war.
Working Class Rugger said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
Steve
I wonder what value Harold Mitchell places on Rugby. After all he is backing the VRU bid for the 15th Licence. Which means he’ll likely be sitting on the board.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
Harold Mitchell will support anything that will bring money to his firm (which is fair enough). He’s in the line of business where he will always stand to gain by having more rather than less such deals floating around.
Republican said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:00pm | Report comment
Millster.
You chose to go down this path by implying that big is best. You refer to ‘pursuits that matter’, so does this mean that our national game should not matter? We in fact do pit ourselves against the world in all manner of pursuits including an array of sporting disciplines like – ‘Soccer’.
You also seem to be inferring that Austarlia does not take its place in the world in a positive and engaging way, how very sad for you. So does it therfore follow that all those countries that embrace the ‘World Game’ do take their place in the world in a positive and engaging way?
I agree to disagree Millster, in a philosophical sense and simply veiw your rather mercenary attitude as arrogantly dismissive of anything not globally endorsed as well as bordering on cringe, due to our games perceived limitations and its ability to survive on the back of its predominately unilateral appeal.
I get a strong sense that you harbour some deeper resentment for the game and it’s country but thanks for sharing your rather clinical sentiments with me.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:12pm | Report comment
Millster has a view that it’s only good if it takes place outside of these shores, as does Ghost and Capt Nemo.
Anything that is Australian is to be scoffed at and ridiculed as unimportant.
In some quarters, they call it “cultural cringe”.
Millster said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
Pippinu – with respect, a complete misrepresentation of my view on the world.
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
At least they do not have “CYSTF syndrome”
And we all know what that acronym means.. As for the link to the Fox 9% increase for HAL viewers, I read it in the Telegraph and that is anti-Football publication…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:45pm | Report comment
Speaking of fear – Fos can write an article in a Sydney paper, but sitting in front of a Melbourne audience, did he have the guts to accuse them all of smelling the fear?
He could have stood up, there and then, looked them all in the eye (just like he says in his brave article), and said to them all something along the following lines: You know what I’m smelling in this room, let me tell you all, I’m smelling fear, that’s what I’m smelling. You guys can’t smell it, you’re all just a bunch of provincial, narrow minded rednecks – you’re all to stupid to smell it. But I can smell it. This room is reeking of it. I smell your fear – it’s as palpable as the FFA’s pissant TV rights deal.
But he didn’t have the guts to address the enemy there and then – no – he waited till he got to Sydney and wrote an article for a Sydney audience.
No guts – no glory.
If the FFA wants to really show us their courage – they ought to consider moving the A-League season to Winter.
But like Fos, big on talk – but at the end of the day – absolutley gutless.
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:08pm | Report comment
Oh really Pippi boy, you really are showing your true colours when Fozzie is mentioned.. I think someone said of you, you are a straw man or something in that vein… I can’t imagine why…? What are they getting at, spouting out football comments, then on the other side really trying to bring football down to its knees when someone is only writing about some future prognosis in 20 years… That’s fair enough, football deserves respect, addressing the bulling media and demanding some respect from the other codes… You have a blog on this subject why come across and sprout your contempt for Fozzie on this one…? Has he really got to you that much…?
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KB
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:37pm | Report comment
KB,
Smell the fear, what in 20 years after they roll out A League mark 2.
It’s not working that well KB, all the huff and puff and Hill et al.
Redb
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:02pm | Report comment
Redb,
just look how Pippi is responding to my calmly written comments… total hysteria; as a result he doesn’t know which blog he has written on the subject “Outlaw Fozzie No. 1 Public Enemy”
“CYSTF slogan” is working quite nicely…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
BigAl said | August 25th 2009 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
It appears I’m the only one on this blog doesn’t know ‘CYSTF syndrome’ – please explain !
BigAl said | August 25th 2009 @ 6:43pm | Report comment
Oh yes of course ! – now I get it – your favourite old line . . . how silly of me.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
Millster
it’s a common theme of yours that something is better because it’s played overseas, and something else is not as good because it’s played here in Australia (and Ghost and Capt Nemo share those sorts of thoughts on a fairly consistent basis as well).
Norm said | August 25th 2009 @ 6:15pm | Report comment
It’s a common theme of your pippy boy that something is better because it’s Australian made.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 6:33pm | Report comment
It’s not an uncommon trait amongst the people of the world that we are naturally drawn to something that comes from within (in both a national sense and an individual sense).
That’s called culture.
Norm said | August 25th 2009 @ 6:38pm | Report comment
it might be called a lot of things but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s any good.
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:15pm | Report comment
You mean Melbourne culture… not the Northern States culture…. We have our own rectangle field culture up here… Isn’t that so Norm….?
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KB
Dave said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:38pm | Report comment
Its a South Australian game
Millster said | August 26th 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Pippinu – but WE don’t ‘come from within’. We’re French, Italian, Irish, Croatian, Greek, English… the list goes on. We don’t have either the longevity as a country nor the cultural depth to be able to make such claims that something is deeply ‘our own’. We barely know how we even are as a country (if at all).
So all this seems kind of bizarre and silly to me. You’re arguing about AFL in the way my French compatriots argue about some 1500 year old gallic ruins. And in this respect I’m 100% behind what Norm says. I love Australia with a passion but when – with the some exceptions being things borne of the natural environment or of aboriginal cultures – one can link everything we call ‘cultural’ back to another country in less generations than there are fingers on one of my hands, then it becomes just plain stupid to try and attribute things to our country and over-value them for that reason. In fact it beggars belief for me that anyone could even think that way… and the only explanation I have is that we are desperately trying to invent ourselves a ‘big country’ culture out of some feeling of inferiority despite it being maybe 400-500 years before the time when one would expect a truly Australian culture to properly emerge.
Dave1 said | November 9th 2009 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
I’m Australian. Australia is an old county it has the same constitution since 1901. Very few other countries are as old as that.
South Australia has had the same constitution since 1857
http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/AboutParliament/History/TheFirstParliament/SouthAustraliasParliamentaryConstitution.htm
“……South Australia now had a Constitution which was one of the most advanced in the world. This was a time when many countries had no representative institutions, or where only the wealthier or landowning groups had the right to vote. There was great pride in this achievement………”
NSW has had the same Constitution since 1856.
Most most importantly, Australia has one of the oldest sporting cultures in the world. The first recorded cricket match in Australia took place in Sydney in December 1803. The rules of Australian rules football were written down in 1859.
Pippinu said | August 26th 2009 @ 8:47am | Report comment
But if there is one thing that belies everything you are saying, that unites Australians as one, including our indigenous brothers and sisters, that goes back to the very beginnings of modern Austrlaia – it is Australian Football.
Norm said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:07am | Report comment
What a load of CRAP!!
MyGeneration said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:10am | Report comment
Have to agree with Norm on this one.
Redb said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Spot on Pip. Your like Scotty Palmer “Keep on punchin’”
The Great Australian game.
Redb
Millster said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Now I know you are joking and having me on because it is impossible to actually believe that if you have even the slightest idea of this country.
Millster said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
And adding one more little thing, if this website is anything to go by I don’t see AFL as uniting Australians as one, in fact quite the opposite… a common feeling I get from people here is that it is a kind of arrogant culturally imperialist code from Melbourne wanting to impose itself of Australian cities and claim a disproportionate place in the ‘Australian culture’ against the beliefs and wishes of many.
Robbos said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Yawnnnn, wake me up when you start making sense again.
Millster said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:23pm | Report comment
My pleasure Republican.
Where to start in deconstructing your attempt at a retort…
Positive and engaging – well a prerequisite is a common language, a common link. And something which is totally local is useless in that respect. Its not the size of football that matters to me, its the fact that it crosses boundaries and cultures. Its a conduit to the world, not just a conduit to some awfully similar suburb half a mile down the tram-tracks. And as for ‘all those countries’, name me another circumstance than football in which North and South Korea have engaged in a popular cultural passtime in a positive manner, ditto the USA and Iran. My last aspect to this point is that its not about some dictatorial global endorsement (to use your term), its about genuine global participation.
Your use of the word ‘mercenary’ interests me as I don’t understand it and its not part of my views. Please explain.
Finally I have no ‘deep resentment’ for AFL at all, in fact truth be told I’m reasonably happy to watch any skillful team sport, except cricket which is the one game I find truly odious. But simply where we differ is that you see cringe as resulting in a pandering to all things global, whereas I see cringe as a silly clinginess for nationalistic fear reasons to ’safe’ local things and an reluctance to fully turn ourselves to pursuit that put us out on the world stage.
Oh and careful with that ‘our national game’ stuff – something that most Queenslanders and NSW’men would dispute. AFL has not much more to do with them than sumo wrestling or baseball (both of which they would attend of course, but as an imported curiosity rather than as a ‘home’ passtime).
oikee said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
That last paragraph is right on the money Millster. I live in Queensland and have not one connection with AFL, as a matter of fact, i feel queit left out because the game revolves around Melbourne. They dont promote any big games or indigernous games up here. This is their cultural cringe. The rugby league footy show has soccer stars on their show at least once or twice a year, and they promote socceroo matches. At least with Origin, and mind you under complete duress for fans, they allow the game to be played down their,
i have also seen a bid by NZ for a origin match along side a all-blacks wallaby game. Now thats a smart move. Smart move by Union i might add, all i think it takes is for the code to say, i enjoy your game, come and enjoy ours also. Nobody probably thought of that, they are all busy trying to attack each others heartlands. You dont win minds by doing that. Seems to me league followers are lazy(laid-back) un-inspiring and swing like a summer breeze, but attack their code, they come out in numbers.
Dave1 said | November 9th 2009 @ 6:09pm | Report comment
It is not a kind of arrogant culturally imperialist code from Melbourne therefore…….. no its not a common feeling here
Joe FC said | August 25th 2009 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
Pippinu it is absurd to say that the FFA is gutless because the HAL is played in summer. Any moderately rational & intelligent person understands why this is so. Association football does not have the cultural depth and history of the traditional winter games and thus it make perfect sense to position football in a different market. Only a fool would allege cowardice on the part of the game’s administrators.
oikee said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Rugby league in England changed seasons to a summer sport, they are doing nicely now thank you. Nothing wrong with that, soccer just needs time, maybe 20 years.?
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
Instead of arguing which codes will be here in the future and which codes won’t, can’t we just enjoy the great entertainment we will get this weekend? Everyone on this thread should try and make time this weekend to watch three fabulous football matches:
Parramatta vs. Penrith in the NRL. Two West Sydney teams still fighting for a spot in the eight at what will be a packed out Parramatta Stadium.
Hawthorn vs. Essendon in the AFL. The top seven are settled, and the winner of this match will fill eighth spot (unless Port win by 100 or so, I think).
Newcastle vs. Gold Coast in the A-League. Ok, no one here will be interested in this one, but as a Jets member, I know we will wipe the smirk off Palmer’s face by sending Culina and co. home with their tails between their legs.
Actually considering there really isn’t a mouth-watering clash in the A-League this week I suggest every set their alarms for 2:00 a.m. Sunday morning for…
Arsenal vs. Manchester United. First big clash on the EPL season. Winner of this match takes the first small step towards premiership glory!
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:27pm | Report comment
If the Gold Coast is to lose I hope it’s the Jets who achieve the impossible… But in saying that, I wouldn’t bet on it… Father vs Son; does it get better than that for a headline….?
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KB
Redb said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:39pm | Report comment
Good point Luke W, no doubt most will.
Redb
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:44pm | Report comment
Luke
it’s too late for all that – you can’t keep telling Australians that you can smell the fear – keep telling them that you are on the verge of sweeping all before you – keep telling them that they’re narrow minded red necked country bumpkins, and expect them to bow graciously.
That’s all wearisome enough – but if only it was backed with substance!
Don’t tell your fellow Australians that you can smell their fear, and then point at the local, small, simple minded codes as reasons for the failure of the A-League!
Enough with the aimless talking – it’s about time the FFA and the likes of Fos showed some real balls.
Fos says: “The leaders of other codes know they can be caught and every football fan is now eyeing a victory hungrily and aggressively. ”
Good, if that’s the case, let’s shift the A-League to winter to finish off those pesky winter codes forever.
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
It’s too late for what? I’m saying that everyone should enjoy the best of what each code has to offer this weekend!
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:58pm | Report comment
As Fos says himself: football is and has always been engaged in an ideological war.
In wars centred around religious fervour – no prisoners are taken – it’s all or nothing – the weaker side would rather let off suicide bombs than submit one bit.
As George W Bush taught us all – one cannot talk rationally with such people – it only serves to give them succour – allows them to continue the illusion that after a bloody stuggle, there is in fact light at the end of the tunnel.
Our task, as I see it, is to teach such people sooner rather than later, that no victory is possible.
megatron said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
Pipp that’s what i got out of this article, that the code war isn’t going to be “won”
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:08pm | Report comment
Well luckily for us Fos isn’t the voice of Australia’s football fans, he just had the medium to voice his opinions louder than us. Believe it or not…people can enjoy, watch and attend more than one sporting code! Just this weekend I played football for the mighty Cardiff City Tigers, went to EAS and watched the Knights play the Cowboys, then watched the Bledisloe on Fox, before changing the channel to watch the Ashes gradually slip from our fingers and finally turned my attention to the Gunners teaching Portsmouth a lesson in how to pass a football. This weekend I won’t be able to play for the Tigers because we didn’t make the finals, but I will be at the Jets match waving my scarf as we crush Gold Coast United, I’ll continue to enjoy the Jarryd Hayne show on Friday night, I’ll pray to the footballing gods to shine on the Hawks to get them into the 8 and I’ll watch Arsenal take on Manchester United to really test their Premiership credentials.
So cheer up! Don’t get sucked into the hype about code wars and such, it is mostly media types spouting their agendas to conform the masses or some stuff.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
Cardiff, just North of Lake Macquarie – you can’t get any more Newcastle than that.
Robbos said | August 26th 2009 @ 7:46am | Report comment
Wow, poor me, let’s all feel sorry for AFL & it’s supporters!!!!.
The way you talk you’d think that AFL & it’s supporters were the victims, it’s like AFL have a competition at the arse-end of the world played by a few local teams.
Instead you have one of the best run, best supported football competition in the world. Grow some balls & take the criticism, the biggest & best always cops criticism because of varying factors, including jealousy.
Redb said | August 26th 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Robbos,
I think your last point about the AFL being the biggest and best copping more criticism is pretty well spot on.
Redb
Pippinu said | August 26th 2009 @ 8:09am | Report comment
Yes – it is true – Fos says so in his article – it’s the AFL that is now the weak one – soccer is now the almighty powerful one – this is the message he has given his Sydney readership (although curiously, he didn’t see fit to leave that message with his enemies, when he had the opportunity).
MVDave said | August 25th 2009 @ 7:59pm | Report comment
Perth v MV looks to be a ripper…MV need to put together a good run of results after the sluggish start…PG also cannot afford a disappointing result and they now have some momentum. MVs results in Perth lately have been poor. Perhaps over 12,000 (if the weather is fine) at ME stadium. Hoping MV can get at least a draw which will be a big improvement on last year.
The Newcastle (father) vs GCU (son) has some real intrique and will be interesting to see who in the family comes out on top…a draw me thinks
Essendon to flog those whinging Hawks and make the finals!
Finally ManU to give those moaning Gooners a footballing lesson.
Koala Bear said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:10pm | Report comment
Chelsea on top of the pile…. You better trade in your red shirt for a sky blue
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:10pm | Report comment
MV Dave, I can honestly say I will be cheering for all the opposites of those results. Go Perth, Jets, Hawks and Gunners!
MVDave said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:33pm | Report comment
l warn you Luke l have tipping form…last time l looked l’m 15th out of 148 for the Roar HAL Tipping contest!!
KB
As you well know ManU allow other teams to have a sense of power by being on top when it dont matter. Watch out for the Red Devils from about November on. By March we will be top again.
MV to go back to back and man U to go 4 in a row
matty1974 said | August 25th 2009 @ 9