By Adrian Musolino
November 1st 2009 @ 1:18am
A-League may hit rock bottom thanks to the Coast
Police direct Gold Coast United fans after they stormed a closed off area of stadium in protest of a crowd cap at Skilled Park during the round 13 A-League match between the Gold Coast United and North Queensland Fury , Saturday, October 31, 2009. Gold Coast United owner Clive Palmer made the decision this week to limit the Skilled Park crowd to 5,000 people to save on stadium fees. AAP Image/Dave Hunt.
What a sad twist of fate that the two A-League matches which were always going to be overshadowed by crowd-watching happened to be back-to-back on Saturday night; underscoring a deplorable week for the league.
First we were in Canberra for a dour scoreless draw between Central Coast and Adelaide.
Residents of the nation’s capital have every right to feel aggrieved at the FFA over the manner in which they were bypassed for the 12th A-League franchise; overlooked despite the debacle of finding a suitable licensee in west Sydney.
However, a crowd of 5,437 was a slight improvement on the 5,139 who turned up earlier in the season for Central Coast-Perth, and it was encouraging, especially in response to talk of a potential boycott by locals over the franchise snub. Credit to those who turned up.
But the focus Saturday night was always going to be on Skilled Park, and it was ugly.
The sight of a bare stadium – with cameras facing away from the only side with a crowd – was a terrible one for lovers of the game.
As North Queensland gained the upper hand thanks to the magic of Robbie Fowler, attention turned to the announcement of the crowd figures. It was like a ticking time bomb.
And then it came: 2,616.
It was always going to be bad.
Fans had every right to turn their backs on the club following the message they sent in capping crowds and blocking three-quarters of the ground to them.
It was, in hindsight, surprising that amount turned up.
The club was deserving of the wooden spoon for the lowest crowd in A-League history – that honour belonging to the defunct New Zealand Knights.
But credit to those who did turn up; brandishing signs such as: “Want bigger crowds Clive? Ask us how”. The community was reaching out to the club. It should be the other way round.
And credit to the Gold Coast fans that broke ranks and headed to the stand behind the goals. What a fantastic form of protest; showing United does have a core group of supporters who are passionate about the club.
As Simon Hill correctly outlined in the telecast, Gold Coast attracted over 10,000 for the friendly against Fulham. 7,526 watched their Round 2 meeting against the Fury at Skilled Park.
The decline since then – made even more stark by their on-field performances in the opening rounds – is self-inflicted.
All the bravado and bluster of the Gold Coast’s entry was all for nothing. Talk of an undefeated season, boasting about its private jet, and general arrogance all fell on deaf ears.
In light of this recent debacle, it’s difficult to see how the club is going to be able to build a sustainable supporter base, especially with the AFL franchise on the horizon.
This was meant to be the franchise that would give the A-League a boost this season. Help spice up the competition, fuelled by Clive Palmer’s billions with a squad brimming with talent. Instead it has become a basket case with on-field performances starting to replicate the off-field decline.
Perhaps the players are feeling the strain of being part of such a directionless club.
Consider the contrast with North Queensland Fury.
The Fury had been stuck at the bottom of the A-League table until last night; impeded by numerous injuries that impacted an already thin squad, taking until round twelve to win a home-game.
However, they are steadily building a solid supporter base off the back of community engagement.
Crowds haven’t been mighty, but they are, nevertheless, impressive considering the population base in Townsville. Supporters are wearing the club’s colours with pride, no doubt as a result of its school visits, coaching clinics, charities and work with local clubs.
Want proof? See the community programs run by the Fury as opposed to the Gold Coast, who have no such community programs listed on their website.
It’s a stark and blatantly obvious point of difference between the two clubs.
Supporter bases are built through community engagement. And the Gold Coast has failed, badly, in this regard. The damage, sadly, may be too severe to repair.
Gold Coast’s approach seems to be an exaggerated example of the line taken by the FFA marketers regarding the A-League’s engagement with the public.
The “build it and they will come” mantra doesn’t work, not for domestic football in this country. Gold Coast has proven that it takes more than stars and results to build a franchise.
Other new franchises need to learn from these differing approaches regarding engaging with their communities. And the FFA needs to act on this disaster before the league hits rock bottom as a result of Gold Coast’s impertinence.
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(156)
Victer said | November 1st 2009 @ 3:37am | Report comment
A sad episode of our young league, but this lesson had to be learnt in some way. I’m hoping Heart and West Sydney are paying close attention. Treat people with respect, I feel for those 4000 or so supporters who desperately tried to make this happen.
Kurt said | November 1st 2009 @ 5:55am | Report comment
I couldn’t resist revisiting a couple of comments Palmer made earlier this year about the AFL:
“That’s not enough to support a new franchise,” (referring to a crowd of 4369 that attended a pre-season practice match)
“The biggest loser’s going to be GC17 and Australian rules itself. I give them three years – they’ll be gone by 2014.”
To which we can only add – that’s about 2 years longer than your rubbish little soccer team is going to last fat boy!
Victer said | November 1st 2009 @ 11:58am | Report comment
wow what a boring post
bever fever said | November 1st 2009 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
Searle’s comments have been worse and the GC 17 mob have not said one word back in anger, just getting on with the job.
I think Mr Palmer has five daughters, private ownership never really works.
KB said | November 1st 2009 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
“wow what a boring post”
Victer,
not to be out done by the four x two block of wood from Wally World — the go it alone home boy stud from WA ways in with his contribution…
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KB
bever fever said | November 1st 2009 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
You mean weighs in.
This has to be the one of the biggest stuff ups in Australian sports history, soccer and private ownership has been exposed for what it is once again.
I did see an item on the news did you have your back to the play in defiance of Mr Palmer, was it more exciting than the game.
Crazy Dave said | November 1st 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Private ownership can work… see The Broncos and The Rabbitohs in the NRL…
KB said | November 1st 2009 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
Freudian slip — good work – remember
~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | November 1st 2009 @ 5:53pm | Report comment
KB,
you dont seem yourself?
Redb
Redb said | November 1st 2009 @ 5:53pm | Report comment
Can’t help but agree. Stick that Clive
Sameth said | March 1st 2010 @ 7:58am (3 weeks ago) | Report comment
Lol… considering we broke the top three in our inaugural season against established teams, I wouldn’t call us rubbish
good luck keeping pace with us champ.
Freud of Football said | November 1st 2009 @ 6:20am | Report comment
Palmer needs to re-negotiate the stadium deal pronto.
We can’t expect him to shell out $100K a game when crowds go from 5000 to 5001 and the league can’t afford to have such a poor showing at a new franchise.
Work something out that is amicable, none of these ridiculous price-hikes when one extra fan shows up.
midfield general said | November 1st 2009 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Yes you’re right but I don’t like his chances since Palmer is a key national party figure in Queensland and from what I understand he is taking some sort of legal action against Anna Bligh, the premier. He’s a successful businessman but he’s starting to look like a megalomaniac out of his depth. Wouldn’t surprise me if GCU fold before the end of season.
megatron said | November 1st 2009 @ 7:15am | Report comment
I too was surprised 2600 turned up. They deserved no one
Luke W said | November 1st 2009 @ 7:21am | Report comment
It’s disgraceful. Like you said, this is most likely irreversible. It would take years to win fans back from the treatment they have received, and with the new AFL franchise, as well as the established Titans, I don’t think United will have the time. The only way GCU will survive from this horror season is if somehow the team can finish first or second, make the grand final and qualify for the ACL. Anything less than that will not capture the imagination of the Gold Coast public. But I think Clive needs to take the 100k he saved last night and give out free tickets to every kid playing junior football on the Gold Coast.
constantine said | November 1st 2009 @ 8:24pm | Report comment
AFL is not run in parallel to football, i dont see how much it can affect it especially given that next year the season will start later
Pippinu said | November 1st 2009 @ 8:30pm | Report comment
Also – GC17 doesn’t start till 2011 – so that’s basically an additional season GCU gets to sort itself out.
megatron said | November 1st 2009 @ 8:51pm | Report comment
GCU will need more than a season to sort this mess out an the AFL side will steal potential marketing dollars, attention and fans. GCU needed to strike now, before FC moved in, but they’ve failed
Robbo said | November 1st 2009 @ 8:21am | Report comment
If Clive is serious about the team surviving for more than a couple of months he should throw the gates open for the next game. Sure, he would lose a lot of money, but allowing everyone in for free for one game is just about the only thing I can think of that could save that club. He would probably make more in the long term by doing it.
That said – they would still battle to pull 5,000 people.
whiskeymac said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
CCM get more to watch their games in Canberra than GC can at home? Clive maybe you should have asked the CCM how to build up community support.
M1tch said | November 1st 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
They took what they thought would be their non drawing games on the road..its failed with 2 crowds of 5000 (if it was seriously that)
Scott F said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
is there a bigger way to shoot yourself in the foot than cap crowds? Has he decided he wants the club to lose money for the tax benefits?? The manual on how to build a new club has been well written over the years, and the biggest step is become part of the community – schools, free tickets for kids etc. The FFA needs to step in.
tifosi said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
I was at the canberra game last night. Quite possibly the worst game i have ever watched in my life. The crowd figure was rubbish. No way more people attended this game than the previous one.
Clive Palmer has burnt too many bridges. No way this team can recover from this. Gold coast is a fickle market. 3 NRL teams have come and gone. The Brisbane Bears pretty much failed as well.
The stupid part is that he is a billionaire. If he was don matheson from North Queesnsland I could understand but this guy has money to lose so it just goes to show what sort of person he is.
The FFA must shoulder the blame. They passed over Fred Taplin’s Galaxy bid which had grassroots support for the money of palmer who has shown he would rather keep it himself.
Robbo said | November 1st 2009 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Yeah – I go to every Raiders and Brumbies game, so I am pretty decent at picking crowds at Bruce Stadium. It looked a lot lower than 5,500 (that said I wouldn’t know too well what 5,500 looks like because the Raiders and Brumbies have never got anything anywhere near that bad).
tifosi said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
And another thing.
Dont start the season by charging $55 per ticket. Who in their right mind would pay that in this country for a level of football that quite honestly is average?
To say thats what the TITANS charge, so we can as well is pure fantasy.
thinker said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Firstly can we just merge them with roar and call them South Queensland FC and put under FFA control
Secondly get the club to take out a loan to buy Perry Park.
Thirdly can we convince the club, FFA, Football Queensland, Football Brisbane and the governments to upgrade and update Perry Park to 20k seated
albatross said | November 1st 2009 @ 11:29am | Report comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz_meFPr4eI
Sez it all really
megatron said | November 1st 2009 @ 11:50am | Report comment
Gold stuff.
Pippinu said | November 1st 2009 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
I wasn’t going to enter this debate at all, and of course that particular clip has been used in a number of ways – but yes – I admit – it was quite funny!!
cosmos forever said | November 1st 2009 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
I’m just enjoying laughing at the FFA more and more every week.
The new glamour club gets half the number of people than the city supposedly not good enough to have a team gets to a fixture with two out-of-town franchises.
Missed a golden opportunity FFA – and with a resurgent Brumbies squad and the Raiders growing strength all the time after a 10 year lull it looks like a hard slog for football now.
BTW – the chances of the government funding for the Canberra A-League franchise holding out until the next chance for us to get in are extremely slim, there is an election before then and that $5mil will come in handy for pork barreling people other than football fans.
Oh, and Clive Palmer – my family on the Gold Coast really LOVE having to choose which family members they can send each week – crazy…
constantine said | November 1st 2009 @ 8:26pm | Report comment
im not sure what sports are in ACT who are the brumbies and the raiders???
Chris said | November 2nd 2009 @ 6:57am | Report comment
Constantine: The Brumbies are a rugby club from Canberra with higher attendances than Sydney FC, Newcastle Jets, Perth Glory, Brisbane Roar, Gold Coast United, North Queensland Fury, Adelaide United, Central Coast Mariners and Wellington Phoenix.
Pippinu said | November 1st 2009 @ 8:29pm | Report comment
Brumbies – Super 14s – quote popular – average around 17,000 in attendance.
Raiders – NRL – was once probably bigger than they are today, but not too far behind the Brumbies in average attendance.
I’ve seen NSL teams come and go in Canberra – I can’t imagine an A-League team in Canberra woudl consistently get above 10,000 in attendances (but I coudl be wrong)
San Jorge said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:17pm | Report comment
i think constantine is just being deliberately obtuse Pip, you know “football is the greatest sport in the world ill pretend i dont know that anything exists outside of it”
David V. said | November 1st 2009 @ 10:47pm | Report comment
The Raiders lost the most of any club out of the Super League war in terms of both support and on-field prowess- they’ve never been forgiven in some quarters and never recaptured their old success.
The Canberra Cosmos were abysmal in the NSL, but the poor running of the club was no different from any other then.
Chris said | November 2nd 2009 @ 6:54am | Report comment
Yeah the Raiders were pretty unlucky in that the Brumbies came to town just as the Super league war started. In 1997 (the year of the split) the Brumbies made the S12 final.
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:05am | Report comment
I think all the regional teams will forever be chasing the 10k mark. And I consider Canberra regional. If they averaged 10k I would be shocked.
People are slapping Perth and Adelaide on the back for getting to that mark.
More worryingly in the short term Bne got 7.5k and SFC 10K.
If the HAL is ever to be strong domestic comp in asia those figurse have to be at least double, but that doesn’t have to happen overnight.
True Tah said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:17am | Report comment
AndyRoo
I think getting 5K for games against two out of town teams is actually pretty good for Canberra, especially considering the way they were treated.
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Yep, that is a big turnout considering how they have been treated…..and lets be honest it would be hard to come up with a less glamerous matchup. Perhaps CCM vs Phoenix, it would be a tight run thing.
I am not against having Canberra in the comp, I like the regional teams. I think when they announced Rovers they should have given Canberra a license but say for the 2014/2015 season.
The teams in the big capitals (SFC and Roar) have to do better attendance wise though. I really expected the Roar to get 10k on Friday night.
They have now fixed their ticket prices, it was a night game and there was a bit of promotion. THe only missing ingredient is for Ange to get a win now, but I don’t think they will hit 10k for the MV game on the 21st Nov either. They really need a GCU derby or Fowlers Fury to come to town to get some momentum back.
At least it was easy to get a car park at the busway.
KB said | November 1st 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Reporting from Fortress Miron; I attended the game last night in what an excellent football match. Last night, Robby Fowler’s goal was worth the admission alone … not to mention the Beach Boys protest and the Mexican Wave that went from one end of the stand to the other. Looking more like a bombora then a wave that the folks who did go caught… All in all it was a beautiful night and funny enough, a good humoured crowd even when the “Beach Boys” stormed the end goal. For those who were there were sympathetic with a rapturous applause when they stormed their end goal to push their point to the max… Good on ‘em — it was all good fun with the security helpless in trying to prevent them doing so…
I hope Anna Bligh was watching the events (wherever she spent the night) that the Gold Coast Football community blame her more than we blame Clive Palmer for this ridiculous situation — well at any rate I do, as she has committed her government in building a “White Elephant” at Carrara to the tune of $160m of tax payers money for a few Marn Grooky games a year; now realising the grave error in that ridiculous decision; instead of extending the Skilled Stadium car parking immediately adjacent to the Stadium, which at present can only accommodate a small number of cars and the nearest other car park is 5klms away with no buses now to ferry the patrons…
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KB
bever fever said | November 1st 2009 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
When your team folds KB their is another team starting on the coast, a grooky team in a new stadium that allows who ever wants to come, the QLD government should be applauded for its foresight and wisdom.
The gold coast can now bid for a commonwealth games and of course a AFL team will provide many jobs and tourism for the area, not to mention a spike in kids playing sports.
Ah well when one door closes another one opens.
Robbo said | November 1st 2009 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Gold Coast, Commonwealth Games? You are joking aren’t you?
Pre-Season Cup said | November 1st 2009 @ 6:53pm | Report comment
Hardly. Why not? Just about every other city in Australia has hosted the Comm. Games (Except for Adelaide).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Commonwealth_Games
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/22/2343581.htm?site=news
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/10/2710470.htm
Do you really think it should go back to Auckland so soon? Last there in 1990, or who do you think is a better bet – Gold Coast or Abuja, Nigeria?
True Tah said | November 1st 2009 @ 6:46pm | Report comment
KB did you previously have a job with the Iraqi ministry of information?
KB said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Why were you at the match… Or are you posting from Japan..? Or are you spending more of your time at Randwick in these dark days… ?
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KB
Crazy Dave said | November 1st 2009 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
I think the FFA should impose some sort of a penalty on Clive Palmer for bringing the game into disrepute. If he continues to try and get less than 5,000 to his games, then the penalty grows with every home game….
danny said | November 1st 2009 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
a penalty of $100k every time he caps the crowd? i like it.
Chris said | November 1st 2009 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
I agree on Gold Coast United administator’s bringing down the A-League. You can read my thoughts on this at:
http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/11/01/gold-coast-united-how-to-lose-fans-and-alienate-people/
Sammy22 said | November 1st 2009 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
Well said KB and good post
My son was one of the “storm the Beach’ crew last night. They went and stood where there season ticket seats are. There are a good bunch of devoted fans on the coast who dont care for the games being played by Clive and Anna. They are becoming more and more disenchanted and finding it harder to keep the optimism. I have heard the fan group trying to find funding to send people to the schools and clubs to build support, great idea and commitment coming from them but hey that is the club responsibility.
After being involved with reviewing pricing for Robina stadium, it is expensive. Not many families can pay $100+ for 2 adults and 2 kids for a football game in the cheap seats. Its more cost effective to get on the train and go to roar games
Yes Clive may be seen as the instigator down south because of his normal comments but Anna is in the mix very deep and not doing a thing to help the locals over her position with Clive.
Local people and football will get behind the GCU when the playground scrap is over, the sooner the better
Here is hoping that last nights protest and assocoted noise helps to sort this out soon
KB said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Sammy22,
I hope your son and “the Beach boys” keep the faith and yes indeed you can blame that witch Anna Bligh for the stuff up… I am not so politically minded or hold the same political persuasions as Clive, however, I can see his point, with such a massive personal investment from him on our behalf (some $6m) to put a football club on the Coast for us, the Football community to enjoy with no help from Anna; only then to be railroaded by her who has done absolutely nothing for the Football community, other than to try and make life difficult for us the Football folk, to operate on an even keel… And yes the prices are much too high for young families of the kind of my son’s generation…
Many people from the south don’t realise she Anna had stopped the ferrying of patrons to the stadium from the only car park made available to the folk from the south of the Gold Coast, 5klms away from Mudgerabah to Robina, where we usually start our journey to finish up at our destination at Robina Skilled Stadium…
On that particular night we drove as usual to our allocated car park at Mudgerabah only to find that the buses had been cancelled until further notice, so my son and I took a punt and drove to the stadium not knowing what to expect, where there is only restricted parking with an inadequate small car park that we were lucky enough to just get into with many missing out…
The meanness of this woman and we can’t blame Clive for trying to keep the club a float… But for her to add to the pain of the Football community in cancelling the buses is unacceptable and she will find that out in the next coming election as a result of it…
This club, the GCU FC, use an existing stadium, built mainly for the NRL Titans, have helped out with the tenancy, only to be treated like second class citizens — it’s an absolute disgrace and I shall be letting her know at the next election…
Cheers
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KB
The Link said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Are GCU getting charged more than the Titians to hire the ground?
KB said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Yep, if GCU reach or just go over the 5001 patrons they have to pay an enxtra $100k and of course you know that Marn Grooky have been gifted a $160m venue by Anna Bligh with no track record on the GC17 club… for as few as 6 game home appearances…
No problem with the Titans, I go to their matches and there’s a beautiful marriage there with the GCU and Titans sharing the ground to reduce costs… Winter and Summer Football — good harmony..
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KB
Redb said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Nice try. This has nothing to do with the AFL. (the funds for Carrera come from Fed, State Govt and AFL)
Like you said GCU and the Titans share the ground in winter and summer – the AFL is not involved at Skilled.
2,616 fans to Clive’s funfest – what a joke he is.
I actually do feel for the fans here.
Redb
KB said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Maybe you would like to carve off $60m on Carrara and give it to the Skilled Stadium Car park development — no problem then — no buses required to transport the patrons from out of the way car parks to the stadium, that would bring down the price of tickets for the Titans and GCU matches…
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KB
KB said | November 2nd 2009 @ 11:12am | Report comment
What have Marn Grooky put into Carrara in dollar terms ? — it’s a gift from the unwilling taxpayers to fund a second rate Grooky club destine to fail with ex Bronco players…
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KB
Michael C said | November 2nd 2009 @ 7:44pm | Report comment
The latest Gold Coast ‘family entertainment’ comedy offering…..”Auckland on the Gold Coast”,….
…., I’ll take “Hollywood on the Gold Coast” ahead of it…..but, then, stand by for “Jolimont on the Gold Coast” coming soon.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
The Qld Govt will own Carrara, and will get a facility worth at least $130 million for a $60 million contribution spread over three years – it’s a very good deal for the Qld Govt.
The Qld Govt gets a tenant during the Winter months who has offered to pay for the maintenace and upkeep of the stadium in full, while allowing the stadium to be used for cricket, soccer and athleteics in the off-season – it’s an excellent deal for Qld taxpayers.
Redb said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Wow your taking Clive Palmer’s side – the rest of the country including the FFA are certainly not.
Redb
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Well I understand his position about the paying so much for the 5001’st fan…but it’s how they went about it that to me indicates they have no clue about what a Football team is or dealing with the public.
It;s not the actual deed so much but the way he went around it.
Put it this way if Don H of Fury said he had to do the same to get his club through a difficult period and did so with appologies I would side with him. Be dissapointed but support him……wheras here I just think [insert word] clive
The Link said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:37am | Report comment
So you’re saying that the Titans aren’t paying the extra 100k for > 5k crowds?
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:41am | Report comment
I am not sure what the Titan’s deal is, I assume it is the same.
How I understand Plamers deal is if they go over 5k they had better get 10k to make up for it.
Titans would never dip under 10k I assume but their deal also sounds bad as it keeps their tickets higher than they want them to be otherwise they would be close to selling out each game.
Redb said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:43am | Report comment
I’d like to know at what point GCU break even with crowds? If they charge so much surely a $3 tax is covered.
Palmer should have gone the other way and promoted the crap out of it, build the support. Surely he was aware of the charge from the outset. Mining company deal with local taxes, treaties, licences all the time.
My read is that Palmer’s arrogance about GCU’s success and private jets got in the way of a decent business plan.
Redb
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:48am | Report comment
I reckon he would be doing ok now. Edit “Although is making zero money from Home games really ok…what was I thinking”
Stadium rental 40k and I belive he backflipped on the public transport tthing so is paying $3.X tax per person.
When you look at his ticket prices I would guess you could assume about $15 a head (kids plus some freebies) so I think at a capped crowd he would break evena round 3.3k. Un capped I think he has to hit 10k fans (according to TWG) but that is at his current prices (which are steep).
Those are my estimates using very bad science and dont consider a lot of things so could be waaaay off.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:56am | Report comment
I understood that 10,000 was break even – and the problem is that from day one, it became obvious that they weren’t going to get 10,000.
Regular crowds of 2,600 will ensure an average gate accross the season of some $65,000.
With about 13 home games – that should almost be enough to cover Culina’s annual salary – so it’s not all bad.
KB said | November 2nd 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Did you know that Clive sponsors the Fury FC as well as owning the GCU club — look at the Fury shirt sponsor logo, it’s one of his companies (btw a better looking logo)
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KB
Redb said | November 2nd 2009 @ 4:37pm | Report comment
So Clive Palmer with a team on GCU that he owns and in NQ Fury a team that he sponsors capped the crowd?
I have to ask, did Clive trip over a gold nugget one day by accident, win tattslotto or simply inherent an oil rich country.
KB said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:32pm | Report comment
Oh and another thing, he and Tony Sage owner of Perth Glory have created a separate competition within the A-League comp, “the Iron Ore Cup” and they actually had minted a special trophy that was on display in their first round encounter in Perth.
Clive and Tony standing proud for a photo shoot and between them was the trophy “the Iron Ore Cup” now how can anyone doubt his commitment to Football with that sort of input…
~~~~~~~
KB
True Tah said | November 1st 2009 @ 6:48pm | Report comment
I guess Sydney club rugby’s crowds might not appear so bad now, if the most glamorous club owned by a big billionaire in a comp of the most popular sport in Australia can only get 2,616!
Alex said | November 1st 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Many of the schoolboy matches in Sydney are bigger than that.
Ian Whitchurch said | November 1st 2009 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
Clive Palmer’s antics are proof why a franchise system with private owners can work really, really badly (cf Davis, Al)
I’m with the people that think the FFA should sack Clive Palmer as owner for bringing the code into disrepute.
constantine said | November 1st 2009 @ 8:29pm | Report comment
mate agree 100%. the entire franchise business model just does not work for me. they should have the structure of an association and let members run it. if the people who follow it are not involved in the decision process then this will happen when the board makes a bad decision w/o their consultation
GeneralAshnak said | November 2nd 2009 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
I guess it could work, you would need each member to fork out about $1,000 plus their membership package to provide the basics for the club. If you had around 10,000 members it would work out pretty well – as long as the board running the club knew what they were doing.
NUFCMVFC said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:53am | Report comment
Is an unfortunate predicament, what a stuff up
As far as the undertone of it is concerned, A stadium, especially one which is somewhat remote without a carpark is pretty daft, even the MCG, centrally located, with plenty of accessability via public transport (Trams and Train) has a considerably sized carpark which doubles as a normal park on non matchdays. Even Etihad stadium managed to build something underneath,but thye are very fortunate in being located right next to a city loop line as well as the station that handles the country V Line traffic. The new Swan Street won’t, but it is across the road from the MCG, with people able to use the carpark there (I have used it previously).
One issue was the ticket prices in the first place, When we were there for GCU vs MVFC, we couldn’t believe the prices, $33 or so for adult and and for me about $26 concession. Contrast that to MVFC who charge in the region of $15 Concession or even $10, in the first season at OP, I recall in the first few games they deliberately dropped prices to encourage people to come, they understood that in the early days it is about getting as many people through the door as possible, and keeping them there so it stays as a habit. Not sure about “community engagement” personally, but having an open terrace, plus much more freedom of movement which allowed to meet new people and bring friends along was good. Stadium was a bit old, so TD’s moderness helped with some people (wing types) I believe after we moved there. But Gold Coasts crowds were prohibitive from the start, so a below par crowd of 5,600 on average in that stadium with excellent acoustics, and now the issue has been confounded by this accounting inspired decision
To a degree I can see the sense business wise of the decision, even if he wanted to cap it at 10k temporarily using one end and the East Stand visible on TV, but deal doesen’t seem to allow for that. Perhaps the public transport costs wouldn’t be so high if people were able to drive and park their car there. Perhaps Anna Bligh Govt and Palmer aren’t exactly friends, but not in the interests of the the QLD Govt whether it is Labour or Liberals in power, to have the stadium sitting half empty or not generating any meaningful revenue in the Summer, it is in their interests to recoup money from their investment, not to mention the away fans the trip brings helps with the tourism industry, even if relatively minutely at first, but it adds up
A lot needs to be looked back on, firstly I recall there being some issues with him not wanting to pre-sell memberships until the squad was known so “people know what they are paying for”, which has based everything on the “team assembled” and not so much community spirit. Contrast that to Fury, only 6kish ($180k pop’n though) granted especially with a legend of the game in Fowler in their ranks and playing well, but it is solid and stable despite poor results, F-Troop come across as quite decent, and one can see it growing steadily slowly over time. But contrast their membership strategy with that of Gold Coast
It isn’t all doom and gloom, Adelaide are doing nicely crowds wise and Perth are bouncing back, but this doesen’t go well with the Roars falling crowds and slipping numbers elsewhere
The Canberra/Expansion issue has been handled disastrously IMO, can see the general strategic sense in going into WS of course, but they have really lost an opportunity, Govt support will go, local football fraternity will be rightly aggrieved. This current bid was the best chance at a successful team there, whereas WS never really had anything decisive at this time. Good to wait a year now but…
Football League in Australia is a fine balancing act, on one hand there is a need for Business acumen, on the other there is a need for Football acumen
Personally agree that while you generally need a Franchise style structure, to regulate number of teams to ensure it is viable within the Australian football economy and teams are generally well placed, and to be able to get rid of NZK where necessary, the overly literal Franchise system (distinct from strucutre) is problematic in the long term. Clubs should be able to choose own manufacturer and organic strips that aren’t mere colour variations of eachother amongst a range of much more serious things. While there is a need for some central control to ensure there is no infighting like previously, not many people are really going to develop a strong long term attachment to a meaningless franchise. It needs to be looked at
My hope is that when in line with AFC Pro League Committees criteria, we split the FFA and A League administration (as to be very carefully considered to stop the two becoming potential rivals like in England), hopefully changes are made then. It will be a tricky issue though, problems of different varieties arise when either one of the Governing body or the League clubs have too much power
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 6:55am | Report comment
good post
KB said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:59am | Report comment
NUFCMVFC,
congratulations on a good post — a very good explanation of the problems that the GCU FC are facing…
~~~~~~~
KB
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Totally agree they botched Canberra. They should be more clear where Canberra sits and I think they should have commited to Canberra even if they said in 4 years time at least there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Also the Fury wouldn’t be getting 180k in gate receipts. Their Tickets are realy very cheap (if you are a member it is about $11 a game for an Adult). IT’s a good strategy becasue if you are invited to a g ame you have no reason not to go.
I even saw someone wearing a Fury top at my local Supermarket… only about 2k kms from Townsville.
Tom said | November 2nd 2009 @ 8:16am | Report comment
You know what would be great?
An article about the A-league thats actually about soccer.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 8:26am | Report comment
You mean like, what’s happening on the field?
That sounds like quite a radical departure from the norm.
True Tah said | November 2nd 2009 @ 8:45am | Report comment
With Clive Palmer running the show, its not just about whatever happens on the pitch.
Given that Palmer has a well established reputation for litigating at the drop of the hat, FFA will probably back off from any action.
On foxtel the stadium looked sadly empty, this is perhaps the lowest point the HAL has got to since inception.
Robbos said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:02am | Report comment
TT, I was wondering, do you like football?
KB said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Robbos,
TT only gets bitchy when the Wallabies get beaten as per usual and we have all come to expect that these days… I had the choice of staying at home to watch the defeat, but glad I didn’t and went to the game at Fortress Miron… For those who did attend the match, even tho the GCU were beaten enjoyed the Robbie Flower magic goal — what a beaut it was… If only he had signed for SFC a couple of seasons ago, a footballing genius he truly is… It was worth the admission alone…
~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Robbos
tt has a very detailed knowledge of footballing history.
but never mind that – his warnings about Palmer are spot on – it’s a very tricky situation for the FFA in more ways than one – and empty stadiums are the least of their problems.
One has to ask – what kind of due diligence did the FFA do on Palmer’s bid – or were they simply taken in by the fact that he was a billionaire?
It’s a pertinent question because I don’t think they did any due diliegence on Hearts, and with Sydney Rovers, they appear to be making it up as they go (much to the chagrin of Canberra fans).
However, Townsville is doing better than the odds may have suggested – it just goes to show that you win some and you lose some – and that’s life really.
Robbos said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Pip, in regards to Palmer, I agree there is some serious issues, but the A-League are not in a position to say no when a billionaire comes calling.
As for further expansion, I believe due diliegence has been made with the Hearts bid, maybe as a MV you don’t argree with the selection, but not sure why you should doubt it?
As for the 12th expansion team, no bid met the neccessary requirements by the FFA, not Sydney rovers not Canberrs, let’s have the correct facts. The FFA no doubt preferred a West Sydney side & so when no other bidder met it’s requirement decided to give the bid to West Sydney & support if required.
As for TT, he seems to only have negative comments on football, while there are many things wrong with football in this country, there are many good things, he tends to see the negative. There are many wrong things in other sports in RU, RL & AFL, but I find only those with agendas who focus on the negative.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
I’ve been following the Hearts process for a very long time – it has always been short on details from day one.
But the statement: ” but the A-League are not in a position to say no when a billionaire comes calling.
” – I don’t understand that at all.
Why not?
If there is a chance that what they do will be detrimental – who cares whether he is a billionaire or otherwise.
I don’t understand that sort of thinking – but I am biased here – the old VFL experimented with private ownership and it was an unmitigated disaster – never to be repeated again.
With this Palmer business – we don’t know where the hell it will end – the FFA will be shitting themselves because he has the power to screw them over many times – and then there is this little political tiff with Bligh – which can’t be good for anyone.
True Tah said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Robbos
my main sporting passion is for rugby, and I am pretty harsh on the way it is currently run in Australia at the moment. Futbol was the first sport I ever played, and right up until the 1995 IRB world cup, was the only sport I followed. I watch the Socceroos and the Hyundai A-League, and have been to a few HAL games, which is more than I can say for some people I know who follow the sport and nothing else, or have only followed the sport since 2006. I dont particularly follow the English Premier League, and I guess in some quarters that makes me a an insular Australian.
In answer to your first question, yes I do like futbol, maybe not as much as rugby, but I do want the sport to do well in this country, and quite frankly, I dont believe GCU are achieving that. I thought Palmers comments about Farina were a real cheap shot against a bloke who has given a hell of a lot to Australian futbol at a time when it was not a cool sport either, a bloke who has done more for the game than Palmer ever will.
I have commented on the many success stories of Australian futbol like the Mariners, who have taken nothing and made it into a massive success, and make a profit in the process.
I think the FFA were dazzled by the whole GCU image – corporate jets, million dollar salaries paid to overseas stars, penthouse suites, gold chains, billionaire owner, yet a bid like Canberra has been shown the door?? Sadly the FFA are not the first or the last organisation to be a bit lax in this regard.
Robbos said | November 2nd 2009 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
Thanks TT, I appreciate your honesty. I’m fully aware that the GCU issues are not a good image for the A-League or for football in this country, but as Tom says below, some really good things happened on the field this week but the media & the casual observer, they only concern on the negative.
This is my argument about the AFL & NRL fans who say the media attacks our game as well. Well for every story about Nate Myles there are 10 stories on how good Slater or Haynes are, or what a great finals series it is. In AFL for every nasty article on Fevola, there are some great stories on St Kilda’s quest for only their 2nd title or how great the crowds are.
But in football, there are some who only concentrate, both in the media & here on the Roar, on the negative aspects of football, nothing about the great interplay between Brosque & Bridge. See the reaction to the WC bid.
I quite like Union & definitely follow both the Wallabies & the Waratahs & have done so since I was in Wales in the early 80s & my Welsh friends showed me highlights of the great Welsh teams with Gareth Edwards & JPR Williams. I’ve been to many Wallabies games over the years & a few Waratahs matches, but since the advent of the A-League & the more real int’l games the Socceroos are involved with, my feelings towards Rugby has waned. .
NUFCMVFC said | November 2nd 2009 @ 3:52pm | Report comment
This is a fair point, the FFA are aggrieved, but when they speak of the Business Plan put forward to them, did this Business Plan include the prohibitive ticket prices that kept a few thousand away in the first place. If the prices had been a bit more on a par with other clubs, I think they would have got about 8k average, same as CCM. Sure the break even point would have been higher, perhaps they would have still been feeling the pinch, but what is of absolute most importance is to actually get people in the habit of going in the first place
Let’s not forget the possible impact that moving Gold Coasts first game to Suncorp may have had, if it had been held at Robina and relatively well priced, they would have got a fairly decent crowd. Instead their first crowd was only 7k vs North Queensland and one could tell something wasn’t good then. You especially have to ask whether that venture was worth it when the Roar got under 20k when they were expected to break that figure easily, due to their own high prices.
Once again we can speak of due diligence, and whether the decision to move to a prohibitively high priced stadium was well thought out
But everyone makes mistakes, and the FFA have made one in that they have over-estimated what people are willing to pay (this holds true for the ACQ vs Oman as well), something which I think they have learnt. But it is unfortunate it is coming at such a cost, in terms of GCU not being started up so well, and it will be quite a task to get those Roar fans back
Regarding Hearts and Rovers, One can see much sense in having a second team in Melbourne, where there is a more substantial Corporate presence and higher volume of juniors etc, but one question we have often asked is what niche are they supposed to be tapping into, it isn’t the old NSL crowd who haven’t come, South Melbourne/Southern Cross would ahve been good for that, but as far as many people can see they can only take away from MVFC.
Regarding Rovers, there is sense in going to WS, but that is so important that it has to be the absolutely right bid. What if by effectively rushing and giving ownership to an ad hoc bid, they are preventing a more well thought out and structured bid at a slightly later time, is this in the best interests in the long term?
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
Speaking of what’s happening on the field – the GCU players are clearly being affected by this whole episode – it shows in their demeanour – it shows in post-match interviews – and it’s understandable that it would affect their performance on the field – you wouldn’t be human if it didn’t.
Can you imagine Culina – returns from one of the top two clubs in Holland (and one of the most famous clubs in Europe), and has to play through a game like that where four sides of the ground are completely closed of to fans – naturally he’d be wondering what the hell has he done.
His performances have clearly deteriorated from those he gave the first few weeks or so – I can imagine Pim’s next interview: I hijt to say it, but yah, vell, I told you soh! Godverdommer!!!
Deja Roo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:35am | Report comment
What an utteer joke the A-league has become. And people said these new teams would revive the comp. Now the same people are saying next years new teams will revive the comp.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
I think there’s only one team coming in next year – Hearts.
Rovers comes in the following year.
Two teams in each of the two biggest cities might help the comp.
Tom said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
See, this is what pisses me off.
I watched two games on the weekend- Sydney v Wellington and Perth v Melbourne.
And there was some fantastic football! Brosque and Bridge combined for a goal that would be impressive in any competition in the world. Thompson was sparkling for the Victory and Sterjovski scored a cracker for Perth.
But people like Deja Roo don’t worry about that. They just read the headlines about Clive Palmer and say its all a joke.
Every week this season the football seems to be getting more and more impressive, at least from some of the teams. But thats getting drowned out by the cacophony generated by off-field stuff.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Another goal for Carlos (or has he been credited for the first one as well? the ground announcer thought he had two goals!)
Great cross by Elasi for the second, who in turn was released by Arch – who just about played his best all round game since, well, since the 2007 grand final.
Carlos did well to get at the end of the cross but it wasn’t his most graceful effort! In fact it reminded me a little of me learning to ice skate – but he steered it in,, that’s the important part.
Chook said | November 2nd 2009 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
Right thats about it !!!!
I think its fair to say that the A- League has hit an all time low.
Im finished talking about crowds……..
Lets talk about the game!!!!!!!
I watched a good match against NJ and the Roar whist the skill was down the tactics were interesting….
Midfielder said | November 2nd 2009 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
On the expansion to 12 then 14 teams, and the notyet finalised Nix problems… There are times when you need to have faith and trust in your management…
The AFL have shown enoromus faith in their current management spending accordingly to the AFL over 200 million dollars on two new teams…
We have Frankk Lowy … he is an excellent businessman… and has a real passion for football…
Sometimes yoo have to accept what is being done as at our level we are in no real position to make the call…
Is there a greater risk in not expanding ? ? ?
At this point the human mouth is proving he may have made the wrong call… prehaps he should have sponsored a Gold Coast team and let football people run it…
However if and as I always say it’s a big if we can reach the next media deal… be in Asia with 4 spots, have our 9 internatioal teams going well, a womens league, a FA cup program in place, and a 12 to 14 team natonal domestic competition.
Our next media deal will ensure we will continue to grow.. always remember Rome was not built in a day…
My gut feel is Obie Wan knows what he is doing, does this mean he will not make mistakes at times … No .. But in Obie Wan I trust..
Robbos said | November 2nd 2009 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
Well said midfielder.
Midfielder said | November 2nd 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC
Your comment on the canberra bid… my reading of the tea leafs is that a second Melbourne & Sydney team is more important than a Canberra team…
That said I think the 13 or 12 (depends on the AFC & the Nix) spot has already gone to Canberra and the last spot to Darwin…If the Nix go the need one more team maybe the Gong..
The real issune is player quality and we need the youth league and a few more back from Europe for the 14 teams..
NUFCMVFC said | November 2nd 2009 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
In general strategic sense they do, but with Canberra, that will be very tricky to get right, and they had everything in place, an engaged local community and local Govt support, with these smaller regional Govts being important, as they slowly add up. It will be a lot harder now to get a viable Canberra team up in the future
Player quality is important, but this season is best yet in terms of quality yet crowd numbers are dropping, in a certain sense A League is becoming a bit of a “fad”, which is the danger when you base it on marketing principles a bit too much (which did well in the re launch). But I think everyone is getting the point of community engagement. That said, there will always be a pattern of “wax and wane” like the economy, but you have to avoid collapses, and GCU is looking a bit like that with 2,600 only and a lot of irked people
As you say, I think it is a case of ensuring a fundamentally stable league/product to next TV deal, we should get additional funds to help subsidise teams and advertising, plus if it is structured well with good balance between FTA and Pay TV, then we should be in a good position to slowly build it up. A little bit contingent on the flow on effects on National Team performance mind, but the 2007/2008 crowds seemed OK despite the 2007 Asian Cup
Regarding Frank Lowy, he is very astute and capable, let’s hope he keep an open mind though and remains dynamic in his approach. I think Archie Fraser is presenting himself very well so far, and let’s hope we keep moving toward a good balance, eg more organically oriented kits (CCM’s are very good)
Robbo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Darwin? They have a small population (most of whom are obsessed with either AFL or NRL) and no rectangular ground. Putting a team there in the A-League’s present state (when Adelaide, Brisbane, North Queensland, Newcastle and GC are all literally hemorrhaging money) would be nothing short of suicide.
Hammer said | November 2nd 2009 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
Actually Darwin does have a brand new rectangular ground / stadium – but isn’t well placed to host an A league in its own right (travel costs would kill it) – the initial talk was the other Nth Q bid was going to forge a relationship up this way and look to host a few games here – mostly pre-season ….
but at present there is a group here (headed by Paul Parker) who are seriously pushing for a local team in the S league … and it’s well down the path – sponsors, player identification and talk that their sights are set on Feb next year …. obviously this will require FFA and Singapore approval … but certainly some assurances must be in place for them to be this far down the track … i have my doubts – given FIFA’s reluctance of teams from 1 country playing in another’s league (and all the hoops the Kings/Knight/Phoenix needed to jump through) – but having recently been up there and taken in an S league game – it would certainly be a great addition to the Darwin sporting scene if it ever did get off the ground …
Robbo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
Ah how could I forget the Darwin Football “Stadium”.
Capacity 1,100.
They can call it a stadium all they want, but a stadium it aint.
hammer said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
How’s the view from up on that high horse of yours
Actually can hold 5k – but that’s not the point – it is a purpose built football ground
Robbo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
It has 1,100 seats. Hardly something the FAA will be going crazy about.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:31pm | Report comment
Darwin did play a couple of seasons in the S-League as the Darwin Cubs, a while back – isn’ t that right?
hammer said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:49pm | Report comment
Back in the 90’s – but this bid if sucessful would certainly do wonders for the game up here – for the game to move forward here we really need to take advantage of the only thing we have over the southern states – our location to Asia
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 4:45pm | Report comment
yeh – the mention of Darwin got my attention as well!!
Would Darwin get the nod ahead of Tassie or the Gong?
megatron said | November 2nd 2009 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
No chance. Although Port Power will relocate to Darwin in the next decade or so.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
Big call!!
megatron said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
It’ll happen, IMO. They’re already playing more games there. Makes sense for all involved.
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
A bit more on the numbers involved is here
http://www.theworldgame.com.au/a-league/culina-admits-concerns-252237
“He also insisted that Palmer’s claim of losing $100,000 a game under the terms of the club’s ground rental agreement was flawed.
Fraser’s stance are backed up by a source from Stadiums Queensland which reveals that United’s assertion that it needs 10,000 gates to break even after stadium charges is incorrect.
The true figure it says is 7500 at $15 per head for tickets.
Under the 5000 cap scheme, United currently charge a flat rate of $30 for adults and $15 for kids, still the dearest in the A-League.”
dasilva said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:55pm | Report comment
If Fraser is right that that’s just disgraceful
It puts a complete mockery over Palmer insistence to have the price of tickets to be incredibly high (which causes the low crowds that palmer has complained about). It also makes a mockery of his decision to cap the crowds
Why doesn’t he decrease the price of tickets to $15 at the beginning. I’m quite sure he will manage to break even with that pricing range and then we wouldn’t have this capping of crowds controversy.
If that statement is correct, we have to wonder what is Palmer’s true motive in capping the crowds cause I can’t see any.
bever fever said | November 2nd 2009 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
Quite frankly every other sporting organisation in this country is pizzing themselves laughing at this club and the FFA, they are a joke and a shambles.
How the FFA got involved with this guy (palmer) when it’s common knowledge that you should not get involved with him is beyond me …. hang on its greedy Lowy and the soccer boys …. now i understand.
A community based club is the way to go, there’s one starting soon on the GC .. a club for the people not a rich tycoons plaything, a club that will bring plenty of tourism and jobs to the region, the Bligh government should be congratulated.
Chris said | November 2nd 2009 @ 7:26pm | Report comment
“a club for the people not a rich tycoons plaything, a club that will bring plenty of tourism and jobs to the region, the Bligh government should be congratulated.”
Is this a Queensland Labor Party press release or a Roar post?
bever fever said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:09pm | Report comment
Nope its the truth, people on the roar ( and elsewhere) who put down a team who has yet to play a game and complain about the funding their stadium has received (carrara)but whose own teams are owned by millionaires and have not put a brass razoo into their stadium but have been gifted it by the government deserve what they get.
Lowy and his cronies are just plain greedy seeking to get into bed with a zillionaire whilst ignoring what really works … a team where the board, President gets voted on and off by its members, the mums, dads, passionate people who follow the game.
I have no sympathy for Lowy, the FFa or the GC soccer team, you reap what you sow.
Lowy and his mates will do this time after time because that is all Lowy knows, because in his world of greed and power it works.
Robbo said | November 3rd 2009 @ 8:22am | Report comment
“the Bligh government should be congratulated.”
For what exactly?
Simmo said | November 5th 2009 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Jase Culina: “What’s happening now, on and off the field, has just made me even more determined to succeed.”
At last, someone at GCU saying something that the rest of want to hear.
Midfielder said | November 2nd 2009 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
NUFCMVFC
I have never been as convinced of the Canberra bid as others have … my example is the Central coast RL bid .. the CC RL bid has alife of it’s own… but is it the best thing for RL I think not..
Canberra already have two very strong RL & RU teams …. and a basketball team as well…
There bid was great but could they deliver is the real question… That they should have a place in the national competition is without doubt .. at the expense of a second Sydney & Melbourne … never…
I am sure Obie Wan will tell the ACT gov they have a place it’s just not in the next 3 years… I mean how far out can you award a spot as well HHMMMMMMMmmm a difficult issue..
Midfielder said | November 2nd 2009 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
Don’t discount Darwin it has a lot going for it…
Redb said | November 2nd 2009 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
need to play at 2am in the morning – bloody hot and steamy in Summer.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
The AFL only play one game there per year – they do it the very best month they can choose (around May) for player comfort – and they virtually allow a 10 day recovery period either side of it!!!
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
It’s one of the very few places I know where it gets completely uncomfortable just standing outside for 2 minutes.
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 7:20pm | Report comment
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/a-league/crowd-cap-ditched-ffa-step-in-252401
FFA to take over the remaining 9 home games. Very odd move and I doubt Palmer will be there next season.
Feel for the FFA haing to clean up this mess, will take them a long time and I don’t know if the team will ever recover.
Hopefully Archies scottish accent wins Anna over and they get a decent deal so it doesn’t cost the FFA to much but since they are going to be responsible for marketing those games and Clive’s team it will be a very hard road.
having the FFA market your team for you….madness.
Redb said | November 2nd 2009 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
AndyRoo,
Does that mean someone will get to say ” hey Clive dont let the door hit you on the arse on the way out!”
Perhaps a competition and the winner…….
Redb
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:50pm | Report comment
I can’t help thinking that Palmer has successfully pulled a swifty here – he saves his $100,000 per game – he still owns the club – and the losses are borne by the FFA (and the other clubs collectively).
Now I know all about governing bodies saving clubs – my AFL club has been hanging by a thread for 25 years – but in this case – Palmer, the billionaire owner, actually made the deal that resulted in the jump in pricing from $40k to $140k – and it sort of goes a bit against the grain that a bloke of that sort of wealth doesn’t end up paying for being pretty hopeless with contract negotiations.
But anyway, good luck to the FFA and GCU – but in all honesty, I can’t help thinking this is just the start – Palmer will always want to do whatever he wants to do – and if the club gets absolutely riddled with debt – he will simply walk away from it – that much is clear.
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:15pm | Report comment
That’s what I feel, they have taken over the risky and loss making part and building his club for him. I doubt the Palmer arm of GCU is going to be doing much to grow the club so what does he bring to the table?
He is not going to be spending money, he is fueding with the state government and he is freinds with a crap coach (but Miren would make a good director of football).
I cant imagine he will stay involved for much longer, handing over control like that to the FFA and his whole conduct (the frequent backflipping and ticket prices changing about 5 times in 6 days) in this matter strikes me as clear signs “he is over it” as it has all been done very half arsed.
It could get messy as he runs down the club to cut his losses and tries to sell Smeltz and Cullina in January.
If he still owns the club this time next year I would be shocked.
Regarding the FFA, in some cases they are too controlling. Would they permit the Bne roar to go to Ballymore for instance? That is probably a move that isn’t very sexy but would probably mean a crowd of 7k would be a very good earner possibly making 50k a game which was enough to build up MV.
They also heavily control the merchandise, not just the rules but a lot of the revenue. that probably proves a bit of a disensitive for say adelaide trying to paint the town red.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
Andyroo
you now remind me:
1. There were rumours of a deal to sell Smeltz before the season started; and
2. Rumours are already floating around that Culina will be gone in January.
With Palmer looking at the bottom line – this all starts to make sense – sell them, get something back – and cut his losses – it’s all making sense.
AndyRoo said | November 3rd 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
He is probably somewhat liable for the wages so unless he hands over the club between now and January (a real possibility) then if he plans to get out in the off season removing those two big earners from the wage bill are a good start.
There is the fact he was still talking to fans last week, but that was before the deal was done. His actions from now on will probably indicate his thinking.
You never know he and Mesnick could be in the middle of a mining deal and are doing everything half arsed because it’s not their priority at the moment or he could be gone in a week.
TK said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
Let’s take the politics away from this GCU mess for a momemt. I think the FFA need to look at why Palmer is doing what he is at Gold Coast. I think the point he’s making is the operating costs of the stadiums is too high in relation to the crowd attendences. I heard Archie Fraser on “the worl game” last night talking up the crowd figures in perth, wellington and adelaide – yeah great Archie, what about the rest of the country. 5 – 6000 people at a game just isn’t enough for a club to keep operating. The stuff from Fraser about “we’re here for the long haul…blah blah blah – well where does he think the money is going to come from for the long haul? There aren’t too many people around who can fund a football franchise in this country, and if the fans don’t turn up then it all goes down the tubes.
I think it is the FFA’s responsibility to take a strategic look at the crowd figures at the games across the country and decide to get bums on seats. The best way to do that, as EVERYONE keep saying is to drop the prices of the tickets. I don’t know what each stadium contract charges for a game, but I’d love to see a bit of investigative journalism on this matter – I can’t tathom why I can sit around mid pitch at the Broncos for around $30, but to go and see the roar costs me $46.
Different clubs are charging different prices for games which indicates they obviously have different cost structures and bills to meet – hello FFA??? How about getting in and negotiating cost structures for each A league club so you give the game and the clubs the best chance of succeeding around the country with lower ticket prices and more people attending the games.
The other thing that shits me is the way Suncorp is priced according to where you sit, when the majority of the stadium is empty ! Why not charge a flat $25 bucks for sitting anywhere? Why make just the cheap seats in the corners and punish the people who are attending the games when the rest of the seats on halfway are empty because no one is prepared to pay to ridiculous prices they are asking.
Let’s face it – the A league has to walk before it can run. The crowds are too low and with negative media it is only going to drive people away. Yeah so football is the most popular game in the world – just not here if you compare it to bums on seats at an A league game vs NRL, ARU or AFL. So suck it up FFA – do something about it. I think what Clive Palmer has done is point out to everyone that there is a whopping big elephant in the room that nobody at FFA ever seems to talk about…costs are too high for clubs playing in mega stadiums and prices are too high for people to go and watch the games. You can get as many football players doing promo’s every week in the community, but if it’s going to cost people a fortune, then you aren’t going to get them to them games on a regular basis. In my view that’s what the game needs right now – low costs for clubs and fans so that the existing fan base in the community can justify going to the games on a regular basis. Archie Fraser has his head in the clouds if he thinks it’s any different and if it keeps going the way it is there’ll be no long haul for any of us to gripe about.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:04pm | Report comment
TK
Fair enough.
This all starts before the ticket pricing.
1. TV rights is very low – yeh it was good to kick start the comp – but they are rock bottom even compared to what the NRL gets, let alone what the AFL gets.
2. I suspect over half over the rights go diretly to funding national teams (I don’t know, just a guess), so whatever trickles back to the clubs is really bugger all – nowhere near enough to run a professional football team.
3. A large chunk of the Australian population who are prime targets to pay money to see sport – already have a football club – and for the most part, it’s a football club that doesn’t use a round ball. You talk about the elephant in the room – that elephant was there from day one – ain’t going to change in a hurry.
4. Big sponsors come in to advertise their wares – they will look first at those sports that attract the most eyeballs – what’s left over is small fry, like Jim’s Plumbing.
5. So a club gets to the start of the season – has bugger all revenue from sponsors, bugger all revenue from TV rights – what’s left? Memberships and ticket prices.
But – in all honestly – gate receipts stopped being the major source of revenue for professional football teams a long, long, time ago – still important – but not the major one.
Therein lies the problem.
HIgh ticket prices – low ticket prices – what we understand from modern sporting comps that don’t have the equalisation policies of the NFL and the AFL is that a few clubs can prosper, a few will just make ends meet – and the rest live with the prospect of bankruptcy year on year – always praying that someone will come along to bail them out.
Just to change tack a bit – those who have played a fair bit of FM (and I got a bit addicted earlier this year) – will know that most of the clubs are basically losing money, except those who are winning trophies, or at least going far in the major comps.
It might be a bit exaggerated – but it seems to reflect very well the dog eat dog of what is world football.
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:17pm | Report comment
I think each club gets 1.9m a year from the TV deal. They need approx 8m in the in column a year.
Salar cap is a pretty good equalisation method. But all this makes the calls for more Marquees and P&R look stupid….dont have time to go back to those old thread just to say I told you so to Fink and co.
TK said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:33pm | Report comment
Pippinu,
I guess some of those points highlight where I think the FFA needs to get more strategically invoved in the deals done to try and maximise the potential of the clubs succeeding. I disagree with point 3 – I think there are plenty of us out there that support the round ball football, but the obstacles are quite significant, some subconscios and compounding i.e. ticket prices, low media profile, poor marketing, harsh criticism of the standard played domestically and unrealistic expectations of playing standards – most of these are pretty easy to overcome for other codes cos just about noone else in the world plays NRL and AFL, so what they see is the best they’ll ever get.
I’m not suggesting anything like this would happen regulalrly – but I still recall when the Strikers beat Sydney in the grand Final at Lang Park and over 40 000 turned up and they had to shut the gates (when there was still a hill at the ground). The people are out there, it’s just breaking down the barriers that stop them coming to the games – let’s face it, they aren’t competing with the other codes in summer either, which is something in their favour.
I still think major inroads can be made on ticket pricing and seating policy. For example, I’ve been to a few Roar games this year – and on average they are getting 6000 per game. But there is potential there, as shown by the 19 000 that they got for the season opener vs Gold Coast. Just on those figures, if prices were set at $25, a 6000 crowd at 14 home games would gross $2.1 million. A 20 000 crowd at $25 over 14 games would gross $7 million. There’s an extra $5 million there just from getting more bums on seats. You are right in your points – there are a lot of things the clubs can’t do much about, but this is one thing they can put effort into effective marketing and approapriate pricing of the product. It’s frustrating to watch the season build up to it’s start and then wither away without useful any response from the clubs.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 10:55pm | Report comment
TK
I’m going to recount to you something that I am aware of from AFL club land – I encourage you to take this and apply it to what you might understand of the A-League, or a specific A-League club.
Let’s take a club like Essendon – been fluctuating around 40,000 memberships for over 15 years.
But are they the same 40,000 members every year? No – as many as 5,000 might drop off from year to year.
Each year, Essendong has to find another 5,000 members that weren’t members the previous year – we call this the churn factor.
Over a period of 40 years – over 200,000 different people would have been a member at one point or another. Some may have been members for the whole 40 years, but most would have come and gone (and maybe come back and gone again, etc).
Fortunately for Essendong, there are proably double to triple that number again who call themselves Essendon supporters – so Essendong is constantly trying to get to these people to buy a membership (as well as keep those they already have).
This same pattern is repeated across every professional football club in the land – so I’m not saying anything new or controversial here.
Now we come to the A-League – let’s look at my club, the Victory – I’ve been a member for four years.
They had 5,500 in the first year (pretty good number to be honest), doubled to 11,000 the next (won the double), and then doubled again to 23,000 in the 3rd year, which was a poor season, and membership dropped to about 17,000 in the 4th season – big drop of 6,000, which was another prem/champ double.
Now there were a lot of factors that went into that 6,000 drop, poor season, stadium problems, fan protests, etc – but even without all these things – you’re always going to get a drop off of fans, maybe not has high as that, but pretty high – the question becomes where do you go to replace them?
You know that there might be plenty of general football fans – that’s well and good – but are there plenty of Melbourne fans who can be tempted to buy memberships to replace the ones lost – and next year – and the year after – and the year after – this goes on forever – Essendon has been around for over 130 years.
Also, if Essendon need a pool of 500,000 supporters to draw their membership numbers of 40,000 odd, how will a team like the Fury need to maintain 8,000 members?
I’m not saying it’s impossible – this is just to show how tough it is – every professional football club in the land grapples with this same question at the start of each season – it’s hard work just to stay still – let alone grow the numbers.
TK said | November 2nd 2009 @ 11:15pm | Report comment
Pippinu,
Point taken and I know the example I used was simplistic – membership and people turning up to watch ad hoc I think are too different things. A membership – well;; that’s a big committment, and I agree it’ll fluctuate depending on people’s circumstances e.g how a bloke feels about committment !. I think that there is a huge potential though for getting people who don’t want to be members to the games more regualrly than maybe once a year. There are a lot of factors at play, but I think that there isn’t a very good job being done to coordinate and overcome even the basic things that could help the clubs out. I’ve just been looking at proces to watch different clubs and it is amazing at the variation and when you look at it, they are all putting a team on the park, they are all being relatively comptetive even if some of them go about it in an uglier fashion.. The interesting thing to me is that some are obviously able to do it at a lower cost to the public – either by minimising operating costs or absorbing it in debt and running that risk of going broke you spoke of. My big concern is that the A league shouldn’t think that it can compete at the same level as NRL and AFL – as you point out, those clubs have been around for a long time. We shouldn’t expect football to instantly be able to compete on that stage – I guess the point you are making is that they have no choice. That’s the challenge is to determine if they do – I imagine once you get as big as Essondon, you get to a stage where you can’t pull back on the scale of your operations or the community expectation of hat you will deliver. The A leage has a chance to set that expectation a bit more realistically than what I think is currently there. Benn good chatting have to get some sleep.
Redb said | November 3rd 2009 @ 7:40pm | Report comment
Essendon Pip, Essendon !
Simmo said | November 5th 2009 @ 10:47am | Report comment
so it’s not called Essendong?
Redb said | November 5th 2009 @ 11:06am | Report comment
http://www.essendonfc.com.au/history/history.asp
1873 – Essendon plays first recorded game v Carlton 2nd 20.
1879 – Essendon plays Melbourne using a white ball, in one of the game’s earliest night games.
1897 – Essendon become one the eight clubs to join the new Victorian Football League in its first season. Essendon wins the first VFL premiership.
The rest is a brilliant history in red and black. 16 VFL/AFL premierships.
“Essendon! – beating Carlton since 1873″.
Redb.
PJ said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:52pm | Report comment
Can I make a point that I think bodes very ill for the future of the a-league. Private ownership is a potential death knell for any team. What happens once an owner tires of losing a stack of money? They walk away. It has already happened with NQLD, Brisbane AND MAYBE ANOTHER? This is not england or europe, even abramovich loses millions every year with chelsea. The market in Oz is so small and profit margins slim at the best of times.
Midfielder said | November 2nd 2009 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
PJ
If I assume you are right … where / how / who is going to put up the money to fund / develop the league…
If you have 150 years of good management , an excellent media deal, and excellent general media, you would have people banging at your door..
Now assume a concept, that will loose money for the first 5 to 7 years, a poor track record, a hostitle media … add no money no big media deal…
It is easy to say the Hal method is flawed .. prehaps it is but I cannot see it happening any other way TBH..
Rusty0256 said | November 2nd 2009 @ 11:05pm | Report comment
PJ the problem is usually associated with clubs with a single benefactor / owner (as in Palmer) and especially so when that owner (again as in Palmer) has no long term passion for Football. I honestly think Palmer is treating GCU as just another toy (Ferrari, Yacht etc.) that he is suddenly growing tired of.
Constantine at Newcastle is a genuine Football guy (although I know there are plenty of fans at Newc. who would disagree) but any single majority owner, even when a Football guy, is still only a heart-attack away from just another club the FFA has to prop.
Private ownership works best when it is spread around multiple investors – MVFC and to a lesser extent SFC are good examples of this.
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 11:10pm | Report comment
Definitely agree on that last point.
To me MV feels very much like a membership based club, as opposed to a privately owned on (even if it is privately owned) – and the reason is probably what you just said.
PJ said | November 3rd 2009 @ 12:33am | Report comment
Yeah, multiple investors is a more stable way to approach it. GCU are definitely an example of what not to do, especially given Palmer doesn’t appear t be in it for the game but for business.
AndyRoo said | November 3rd 2009 @ 8:44am | Report comment
The Fury are a lesson in this too. I think the other owner was in the recruitment business so when the GFC came arround there business went pair shaped and they had to pull out. Because the fury had two owners though they survived.
Rusty0256 said | November 3rd 2009 @ 12:50am | Report comment
The other problem with single-owner clubs is the old Dictator / Megalomaniac syndrome.
In business it can work quite effectively because the pleebs who work for him have to put up with his shit or they get the sack. But the same dude running a Football club and using the same tactics he uses in business, will totally piss off would-be supporters, especially when that owner ponces around telling everyone what he will and won’t do with HIS CLUB!
The events of the past week should be a salient warning to those at the top of FFA to never allow this situation to occur again.
True Tah said | November 3rd 2009 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Rusty I think futbol could look at Firepower and learn lessons which basketball and rugby have learned.
Not for a moment am I suggesting that Palmer is anything like the shonk Tim Johnston was and is, but back then it was a case the Western Force/Sydney Kings not doing any proper due diligence on Firepower and look what happened.
AndyRoo said | November 3rd 2009 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
I just thought of another pitfall for the FFA, they wouldn’t get anything from the season ticket holders who have already paid.
They are really going to be pushing it uphill to turn this club around so there absolutely must be some plan for Palmer to hand back the ownership.I think most people would be wary of being generous towards a team still owned by Palmer while the FFA do all the work.
Also being the guy in charge of procuring sponsorship money for GCU would be a tough job.
Would you like your brand to be associated with the off field calamity that is GCU?
Perhaps another opportunity for Jims Plumbing…”when your in the s**t call Jim’s Plumbing”.
True Tah said | November 3rd 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Andy doesnt Adelaide already have Jims Plumbing as a sponsor? Maybe get Jims Mowing as a sponsor!
Is there any issue at all with Clive making financial contributions to two competing clubs?
K B said | November 4th 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Why should you believe there would be an issue…? These are two independent companies owned by Clive based in two different regions; one in Nth Qld and the other on the Gold Coast…
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KB
AndyRoo said | November 3rd 2009 @ 8:26pm | Report comment
Mixed messages now with Mesinek saying there not having their games underwritten by the FFA
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/a-league/bleiberg-defends-his-boss-252721
K B said | November 4th 2009 @ 9:22am | Report comment
There’s no mixed message — it’s back to business — and I’ll be at the GCU FC v SFC fixture at fortress Miron to see a great top of the table clash… prediction: 2–2 draw
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KB
rocco said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
all I can say is HA HA HA – looks like it wasn’t just the big bad ethnic NSL clubs and the ethnics that attended them that have driven crowds away from the beloved new football?
Pippinu said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
rocco
it’s always the wogs’ fault!!
megatron said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:58pm | Report comment
Rocco, opening a can of worms there. The game doesn’t belong to ethnics or non ethnics but rather to all. Crowds are down because people like you haven’t gotten behind the A-League cause of your flawed logic.
K B said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:55pm | Report comment
megatron,
Well said…
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KB
K B said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:52pm | Report comment
Rocco,
how do know that I’m ethnic or not… I’m an Australian senior citizen ex pat Sydney football lover now retired and living on the Gold Coast of old Greek Heritage…
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KB
megatron said | November 5th 2009 @ 9:38am | Report comment
Let’s hope the next generation aren’t so dismissing of the A-League based on a perceived lack of ethnic teams. Let’s hope they look beyond such division.
Michael C said | November 5th 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Greek heritage and NOT from Melbourne……hurrumph!!!
K B said | November 5th 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Yep, my family goes back as far as 1913–the very first Greeks to set foot on Sydney soil… No Melburnian blood line to be ashamed of there..
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KB