By sheek
November 10th 2009 @ 2:08am
Loading ...What if 1983 had the first Rugby World Cup?
It has always been a source of great regret for me that the Rugby World Cup didn’t arrive earlier, say 1983. There were many fine players running around then, especially Australians, whose presence would have enriched such a comp.
Not to mention the many fine players from elsewhere.
Of course, this is an argument that can go as far back as possible depending on one’s vintage. There are probably plenty of Welshmen of a certain generation who wish for example, there had been a World Cup in the early to mid 70s, when Wales were one of the best rugby teams around.
But let’s look at 1983 and I’ll just present composite squads of 22, without too much comment, as close as possible to what might have been chosen back then. If the selections generate any comment, I can discuss this in my replies.
Players who retired in tests in 1982 are assumed to have made themselves available in 1983 with the knowledge the world cup was coming. Also defections to league are deferred a year, and injuries at the time are ignored for the purpose of the exercise.
It’s a wish list of realistically potential best available at the time.
AUSTRALIA: Roger Gould, David Campese, Mick O’Connor, Mike Hawker, Brendan Moon, Mark Ella(vc), Phil Cox, Mark Loane(c), Chris Roche, Simon Poidevin, Steve Williams, David Hillhouse, Andy McIntyre, Billy Ross, Tony D’Arcy. Bench: Glen Ella, Andy Slack, Tony Parker, Steve Tuynman, Nigel Holt, Stan Pilecki, Mark McBain.
NEW ZEALAND: Allan Hewson, Stu Wilson, Steve Pokere, Warwick Taylor, Bernie Fraser, Wayne Smith, Dave Loveridge(vc), Murray Mexted, Graham Mourie(c), Mark Shaw, Andy Haden, Gary Whetton, Andy Knight, Andy Dalton, John Ashworth. Bench: Robbie Deans, Craig Green, Andy Donald, Jock Hobbs, Graeme Higginson, Kevin Boroevich, Hika Reid.
ENGLAND: Dusty Hare, John Carleton, Clive Woodward, Paul Dodge, Mike Slemen, Les Cusworth, Steve Smith(vc), John Scott, Peter Winterbottom, Nick Jeavons, Maurice Colclough, Bill Beaumont(c), Gary Pearce, Peter Wheeler, Colin Smart. Bench: Marcus Rose, Huw Davies, Nigel Melville, Bob Hesford, Steve Bainbridge, Phil Blakeway, Steve Mills.
FRANCE: Serge Blanco, Patrice Lagisquet, Phillippe Sella, Didier Codorniou, Patrick Esteve, Jean-Patrick Lescaboura, Jerome Gallion(vc), Jean-Luc Joinel, Jean-Pierre Rives(c), Laurent Rodriguez, Jean Condom, Jean-Claude Orso, Robert Paparemborde, Phillippe Dintrans, Pierre Dospital. Bench: Jean-Baptiste Lafond, Didier Camberabero, Pierre Berbizier, Dominic Erbani, Alain Lorieux, Michel Cremaschi, Daniel Dubroca.
WALES: Mark Wyatt, Elgan Rees, Dave Richards, Rob Ackerman, Clive Rees, Gareth Davies(c), Terry Holmes, Eddie Butler(vc), Dai Pickering, Jeff Squire, Dick Moriarty, Bob Norster, Graham Price, Billy James, Stack Jones. Bench: Mark Ring, Malcolm Dacey, Gerald Williams, Gareth Williams, John Perkins, Ian Stephens, Alan Phillips.
SCOTLAND: Andy Irvine(c), Keith Robertson, Jim Renwick, Dave Johnston, Roger Baird, John Rutherford, Ray Laidlaw, Ian Paxton, Doug Leslie, Jim Calder, Alan Tomes, Bill Cuthbertson, Ian Milne, Colin Deans, Jim Aitken(vc). Bench: Peter Dods, Bryan Gossman, Gordon Hunter, Derek White, John Beattie, Gerry McGuinness, Rob Cunningham.
IRELAND: Hugo MacNeill, Trevor Ringland, Dave Irwin, Mike Kiernan, Moss Finn, Ollie Campbell(vc), Robbie McGrath, Willie Duggan, Fergus Slattery, John O’Driscoll, Moss Keane, Donal Lenihan, Gerry Mcloughlin, Ciaran Fitzgerald(c), Phil Orr. Bench: Paul Dean, Tony Ward, Mike Bradley, Col Tucker, Ronan Kearney, Mike Fitzpatrick, Harry Harbinson.
ARGENTINA: Martin Sansot, Jose Palma, Marcelo Loffreda, Rafael Madero, Marcelo Campo, Hugo Porta(c), Guillermo Soares-Gache, Ernesto Ure, Tomas Petersen(vc), Gabriel Travaglini, Alejandro Iachetti, Gustavo Milano, Topo Rodriguez, Andres Courreges, Serafin Dengra. Bench: Bernado Miguens, Diego Cuesta-Silva, Javier Miguens, Jorge Allen, Eliseo Branca, Fernando Morel, Alejandro Cubelli.
South Africa were finding themselves increasingly isolated and it is unlikely they would have been invited, especially after the civil turmoil caused during their 1981 tour of New Zealand.
However, they would have had a formidable team if participating, with a dazzling backline to complement their usual tough forwards.
SOUTH AFRICA: Johan Heunis, Ray Mordt, Willie du Plessis, Danie Gerber, Carel du Plesis, Naas Botha, Divan Serfontein(vc), Theuns Stofberg(c), Rob Louw, Burger Geldenhuys, Louis Moolman, Shalk Burger, Hempies du Toit, Uli Schmidt, Ockie Oosthuizen. Bench: Colin Beck, Michael du Plessis, Barry Wolmarans, Jannie Breedt, Rudi Visagie, Flippie van der Merwe, Chris Rogers.
For fans of my generation, many of these names leap off the page, so many great players, so many competitive teams. So who would have won?
Well firstly, we will assume the inaugural RWC in 1983 was held in the northern hemisphere, with the final probably at Twickenham. With South Africa out of the picture, it would largely depend on who was drawn against who in the pools.
In any case, I reckon Australia, New Zealand and France would have been semi-finalists, with any of the other five making up the fourth semi-finalist.
Argentina had the talent to make the final four, but whether they had enough ‘big occasion’ nous about them at the time, was a concern for them.
Note that Ireland were Five Nations champions in 1982 (England and Scotland equal second), and shared the title in 83 with France, while Scotland were champions in 84 (France runners-up).
As for inaugural RWC champions in 1983, had it happened, France would have been the team to have peaked at the right time.
It was interesting when Australia toured France in 1983 they were terrified of playing their expansive running game against the lightning quick French backline, who would have punished poorly executed moves in a flash.
The French also had a powerful, aggressive pack, with a good mixture of youth and experience. And of course, they were led by Jean-Pierre Rives, the “Victor Trumper of rugby”, who would not have been out of place as a hero in a golden age.
You could not but admire the beauty and courage of his play.
As for their opponents, it would have been Australia or New Zealand, depending on who played who in the semis. Australia had the most creative backline in the game, but their forward pack was solid at best, rather than the great machine it became 12 months later.
New Zealand were clinically efficient in everything they did, as per usual at the time. Although the British and Irish teams were on a decline at the time, they would still have been enormously competitive.
Anyway, enjoy the trip down memory lane.
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(45)
Ziggy said | November 10th 2009 @ 7:06am | Report comment
The Boks would have won that Cup with ease. That was a very great side. The backline has few peers in rugby history. I had a meeting with Willie du Plessis last week and we both had a good laugh about Naas Botha never passing the ball. The old joke about Naas not even being able to recognise his backline was cause for much merriment. He also told again of what that side had to endure on their of NZ. Unbelievable. And yet they almost won the series – desperately unlucky not to have in fact.The last test he had not slept for almost 48 hours!
sheek said | November 10th 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Ahhh Ziggy,
You must be a Saffie….. not even just a hint of modesty, or doubt?
A point you missed perhaps, is that while the Boks were very good, & I admire them greatly, there were other strong teams around as well, with good backs.
You would know little of the Wallabies backline back then, but perhaps I can assist?
Heunis v Gould – very little in it. Heunis complete fullback, Gould dangerous on the attack, also mighty punt.
Mordt (right) v Moon (left) – again even stevens I think. Moon was the perfect wing technician, very like Carel.
W. du Plessis v O’Connor – Willie was a very fine player, O’Connor a freak with a wicked step & swerve, plus acceleration.
Gerber v Hawker – clear win for Danie, but Hawker was defensively sound.
C. du Plessis v Campese – Carel very like Moon, but Campo in a world of his own.
Botha v M.Ella – the great kicker versus the best linebreaker. Ella’s ability to setup tries was freakish.
Serfontein v P.Cox – perhaps another win to Serfontein, but Cox was solid.
Traditionally, Saffies struggle against players who don’t conform to known ‘rules’, & there are plenty of ‘mavericks’ in this Wallabies lineup to throw the Boks off their game!
Robbo said | November 10th 2009 @ 7:06am | Report comment
I’m going to throw Romania in there too as an (admittedly outside) semi final chance. They beat then Grand Slam team Scotland in 84 and Wales by 20 points in 83, beat France by 15 in 80, and by 5 in 82 and drew with Ireland in 81.
Bay35Pablo said | November 10th 2009 @ 7:50am | Report comment
True, they were professionals after all!!!!
sheek said | November 10th 2009 @ 8:20am | Report comment
Yeah true,
And they lost only 6-14 to the ABs in 1980. But it would have required too much work on my part to analyse & compile their team.
Robbo said | November 10th 2009 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
Fair enough Sheek – hell I wouldn’t be able to name a single starting 15 from ANY nation during that era. Great article – you obviously put a lot of time into it!
Jimmy said | November 10th 2009 @ 7:37am | Report comment
Imagine how many more tries Gerber could have scored if Botha had passed more? Not to mention Mordt and Du Plessis. Willie’s career was too short but he made many of Gerbers tries with his perfectly weigeted and timed passes. Terrific on defense. Danie Craven thought very highly of him.But that pack was formidable and destroyed the ABs despite their lack of sleep etc. That side would have easily defeated todays Bok team.
sheek said | November 10th 2009 @ 8:26am | Report comment
There’s that great story of Botha flying back to Pretoria from Capetown after leading his team in a great Currie Cup final win.
He turns to the guy next to him, who looks vaguely familiar, & says, “I’m Naas Botha, the great Springboks flyhalf. And today I won the Currie Cup for Northern Transvaal”.
“I know”, replies the guy next to him, “I was your inside centre today”! (Or something like that).
Actually Botha copped some bad press. He could run the ball when he had a mind to.
Rusty said | November 10th 2009 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
not sure about that – of almost all the games I watched where Naas played he was the only one to leave the field with clean kit!!
Ziggy said | November 10th 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
His inside centre was Willie duPlessis and he would agree that the story may as well have been true !!! He says all he seemed to do was defend because he almost never got the ball. On a serious note they all had a high regard for Naas except for his disinclination to tackle anything. Willie’s role was to cover for him. Shades of Campese who could come off a muddy field immaculate! There is no way you can compare Campo to Carel. If Carel had gone on to play that number of tests he would have at least equalled Campo’s record but his edge was that he was quicker and could actually tackle. Mordt was a cut above both of them.
If only Ella had been the Bok flyhalf with that pack of forwards and that back line!!!
The only other position I would concede to the Wallabies is Gould who I thought was a fantastic player.
sheek said | November 11th 2009 @ 6:59am | Report comment
Thanks Ziggy,
Both your comments & Jimmy’s very illuminating. So Ella to set Du Plessis, Gerber, Mordt & du Plessis alight?
You guys had your own ‘dark’ genius, his name was Errol Tobias.
Ziggy said | November 11th 2009 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Errol was the finest Bok Fly Half ever. That is quite a statement and one I will never back down from. But he only started to play for the Boks when he was past his best – over 30! Never lost a test. Was he better than Ella? We will never know because of the Apartheid era. Tobias was more predictable than Ella. Ella was my all time favourite Fly Half.
PastHisBest said | November 10th 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
I think this was part of the trick Jimmy. The opposition was surprised when the SA backs got the ball and didn’t know how to defend such rare occurrences.
Harry said | November 10th 2009 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Wonderful trip down memory lane Sheek and would have been great viewing. Just an observation … how would all those great 5/8ths of yesteryear – Mark Ella, Barry John, Naas Botha, to name but three, go in today’s world of 100kg + players trained to run hard and fast at their “defensive channel”. Many of those guys weren’t, by their own admission, all that flash at tackling. Yet today’s 5/8th has ot be rock solid – witness the angst from us all on Quade Cooper’s tackling (although I thought he did well in defense on the weekend, has obviously worked hard at it).
sheek said | November 10th 2009 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Harry,
My argument is, it’s all relative to the time.
Today’s players are a product of their environment – homogeneity. League went through a similar process, but individual expression has returned in recent year – Inglis, Hayne, Slater, Thurston, Bowen, etc.
Back in the 70s & 80s, there was more scope for individual flair. That kind of thing will return. Union can’t do without those kind of players. They’ll find a way around defences. At present the evolution of defence is in the ascendency.
Harry said | November 10th 2009 @ 11:35am | Report comment
A good point Sheek and I do hope attack once again steps up. The leaguies went a long way to improving their game by introducing the 10 metre rule, by the mid to alte 80’s things had got pretty dire (remember those 4-2 grand finals?)
One league player with flair who can’t tackle at all well is Benji Marshall … they hide him well. Another who is quite poor defensively, amazingly enough, is Folau.
Back to union … they need to police the offside law better, for instance watching the 2 weekend games, IMO an offside penalty could be found at almost every ruck and maul. And I would also like to see red cards for “lazy runners” accidentially getting in the way of attacking passes.
Greg Russell said | November 10th 2009 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Sheek, as Harry said, a “Wonderful trip down memory lane” … the whiteness of Dusty Hare’s legs, even whiter than his England strip, and the speed with which he took his kicks at goals: oh for this to be compulsory these days, so that less time was wasted … the much underrated Bill Beaumont, who was the Brad Thorn of his day … the roly-poly and these-day unappreciated Robert Paparemborde, arguably the most influential prop of all time: it’s hard to imagine, but props simply did not run with the ball before him …
Had a World Cup been held in 1983, then perhaps we would have to acknowledge Clive Woodward as the Franz Beckenbauer of rugby, i.e., played in a WC winning side and coached a side to a WC win. So perhaps it’s good that there was no WC in 1983 – the man’s ego would be even more intolerable than it already is (by contrast, the Kaiser is quite a humble man).
One thing you do not mention: a WC in 1983 may have resulted in O’Connor and D’Arcy not switching to league, which would have had an enormous impact on Australian rugby, I believe. I know the Wallabies had a lot of special talents around then, but arguably only Mark Ella was in O’Connor’s class, and I don’t think any of the front-rowers were in D’Arcy’s.
sheek said | November 10th 2009 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Greg,
You kidding me – England winning the 1983 RWC??? They were good back then, but not top drawer (yes, they beat the ABs, but then the ABs had half a team of first-choicers unavailable, including the tight-five & scrum halves).
Agree about O’Connor & D’Arcy. O’Connor was the most potent back in the Aussie team circa 1982. Ella was the organiser, Campo the new chum, but O’Connor was the sharp end of the attack. He played his last rugby test at only 21. Only 21!
D’Arcy was already acknowledged as the strong man of the Wallabies scrum, at just 23 going on 24 in 1982. Had D’Arcy remained in union, the Wallabies might not have required Rodriguez’s services in 1984-87!
Greg Russell said | November 10th 2009 @ 10:48am | Report comment
“You kidding me – England winning the 1983 RWC”
I did write “perhaps” with my comment, indicating possibility rather than likelihood. I agree England would not have been favorites, far from it. However few WCs have been won by the pre-tournament favorites, in fact have any been? (possibly only England in 2003). One is not permitted to look at subsequent years (e.g. Australia 1992-3, Australia 2000-1, South Africa 2009) and retrospectively say that these teams were really favorites when they won.
Would you say that NZ, France, Australia would have been, in that order, favorites in 1983?
sheek said | November 10th 2009 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
Greg,
What intrigues about 1983, is how open it was likely to be. I think your rankings are probably right – 1.NZ, 2.Fra, 3.Aus – but very little between them.
In the 5N 1982-84, Scotland compiled 15 points, followed by France 14, Ireland 12, Wales 11 & England 8. The breakdown is as follows:
E – 5, 1, 2.
F – 2, 6, 6.
I – 6, 6, 0.
S – 5, 2, 8.
W – 2, 5, 4.
I think it would have been an intriguing tournament, had it happened. I guess my overriding point, or thought for the article, is that back in 1983 the gap between nations ranked 1 to 8 was far narrower than it is today .
Another thing I realised, 5 of the number 10s mentioned above, were widely regarded as the best to ever represent their country – Mark Ella (Australia), Naas Botha (South Africa), Ollie Campbell (Ireland), John Rutherford (Scotland) & Hugo Porta (Argentina).
Indeed, Porta’s name is sometimes put forward as the best ever number 10 from any country. Massive praise indeed. The remaining number 10s weren’t slouches either.
NZ’s Wayne Smith was very workmanlike; Wales’ Gareth Davies will always suffer comparison with his immediate predecessors Phil Bennett & Barry John (& Jon Davies after him), but was a fine player in his own right.
England’s Les Cusworth, unusually for a Pom, liked the running game while France’s Lescaboura was unusually tall for the position, but deceptively quick with his hands & on his feet.
sheek said | November 10th 2009 @ 10:34am | Report comment
Ziggy/Jimmy,
Assuming you might both be Saffies with knowledge of the 80s, could I have some feedback on players from that era? I’m more familiar the later the players appeared, say late 80s to early 80s. I just want to improve my knowledge.
Fullback: G.Pienaar v Heunis v Joubert.
Winger: Germishuys v Mordt v C.du Plessis v Small v C.Williams.
Centre: Gerber v W.du Plessis v M.du Plessis v P.Muller v Venter.
Flyhalf: Botha v Tobias v Stransky v Honiball.
Scrumhalf: Serfontein v Joost.
Eightman: M.du Plessis v Breedt v Teichmann v Skinstad.
Flanker: Louw v Stofberg v Smal v F.Pienaar v Kruger.
Lock: Moolman v van Hearden v M.Andrews.
Prop: O.Oosthuizen v H.du Toit v F.van der Merwe v Swart v du Randt.
Jimmy said | November 11th 2009 @ 6:13am | Report comment
I’m a pom who has lived and worked in SA.Cannot comment on them all. For what it’s worth
Fullback: Heunis was a complete player. He actually played every back line position except scrum half as I recall? Very fast, excellent kicker with both feet and secure under the high ball. Superb positional player with greta defence. In contrast, Joubert (‘Rolls Royce’) was often shaky under the high ball and missed quite a lot of tackles. Pienaar was a marvellous all round player but not quite to the standard of Heunis. All of them were attacking fullbacks but Heunis was more cautious than the other two. Only the legendary H.O. de Villiers would beat Heunis to the No 1 spot.
Wings: No problems here – Mordt and Carel du Plessis. I respected Small for his memorable shutting out of Lomu(with help!) in the 95 WC final. Germishuys was very under rated. Williams a fine player and great bloke.
Flyhalf: Tobias first played for SDA after he was past his best = aged 31. He never knew defeat in a Bok jersey. I rate him not only the best Bok flyhalf ever but one of the game’s best ever. He had every skill in the book and was very quick off the mark with terrific instinctive positional play. Honibal was a frighteneing character – tough as old boots. I was in Paris and watched that incredible test when SA ran in 7 tries against France. Honibal was just sublime that day. Botha just kicked too much and wasted one of the finest back lines ever to grace a rugby field. Joel was a ‘pressure’ player. Cool, calm and collected. But nowhere in the class of Tobias or Honiball.
Scrumhalf: In a country blessed by a history of great scrum halves you would have to pick Joost. Big, powerful and a wonderl passer on both sides. Plus he played in very average Bok sides and managed to lift them to higher standards. Serfontein was no slouch but in those days the halves had more time and he played behind tremendous forwards who provided betetr protection. He was a much better kicker than Joost. Joost loved to attack at every opportunity and was an excellent defender.
No 8. Skinstad and Breedt don’t belong in the company of the other two.Maybe unfair on Breedt whom I only saw play once – he came to fore late in the 80’s and was a fine Bok Captain. Morne was a class above the others. The Boks collapsed after Teichmann was dropped and took some time to recover. Remember they had just completed 17 unbeaten tests in a row!
Forwards: Not my cup of tea! Impressions were they were OK but not world beaters except for two stand outs – du Randt and Andrews.
Maybe Ziggy can comment although he played Fly Half and was only kept out of the Boks by the famous Keith Oxlee.
Finally to those who keep on about the modern professionals being streets ahead of the past players I find JPRs comments illuminating – he would pick only two possibles from todays era that could compete in the teams from his past! And he was as tough as hell and probably the best full back I ever saw play the game.
sheek said | November 11th 2009 @ 6:38am | Report comment
Jimmy,
Fantastic stuff. You helped clarify quite a few things. Interesting what you say about Tobias. It’s a shame about the time he lived in.
Rusty said | November 10th 2009 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
If interests you – you can actually see a relative ranking matrix by applying the same IRB criteria. Have a look on ol pickandgo.info. If you want to include SA the Dec ‘81 is your last point and it looked like this
Postion – Nation (points)
1 – NZ (87)
2 – SA (85)
3 – Eng (83)
4 – Aus (82)
5 – Wal (81)
6 – Fra (80)
7 – Sco (78)
8 – Arg (77)
9 – Ire (77)
Sep ‘83
1 – NZ (87)
2 – Fra (81)
3 – Aus (81)
4 – Ire (81)
5 – Wal (80)
6 – Sco (79)
7 – Eng (79)
8 – Arg (78)
So if this proves anything – its that the Kiwis were still way out front but the rest of the pack were extremely close with France and Ireland on the up.
sheek said | November 10th 2009 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
Wow Rusty,
What an awesome site. I think I’ll be spending some time there!
Of course, each of the teams above have been boosted with “ideal world” inclusions, especially Australia. The ‘real’ Wallabies of 1983 for example, didn’t have O’Connor or D’Arcy, who went to league that year, or Loane, who had retired.
Shahsan said | November 10th 2009 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
My money would have been on South Africa. NZ did beat them in a tight series in 1981 but that was in NZ and was very disruptive, esp for the touring side. And that last game was won on a very controverisal call. So if the World Cup were played in the UK i reckon the Boks would have won.
And they would have done so by playing a limited game, with Botha calling the shots and Louw foraging and winning everything in the loose, esp as this was pre Michael Jones and Mourie was past his prime (wasn’t Frank Shelford or Jock Hoobbs the Kiwi no 7 then?).
And this despite SA having some brilliant backs to call on; they would play a game perhaps very similar to the one they play now, by and large.
NZ, France and Australia would have tried to play their attractive running games, but SA would have been the most pragmatic. They were, if nothing else, a pragmatic nation.
The British, as that point, were all pretty poor, as shown by the 1983 Lions tour and the Wallabies 1984 Grand Slam..
Jerry said | November 11th 2009 @ 6:30am | Report comment
Jock Hobbs was the openside in 83, yeah.
sheek said | November 11th 2009 @ 6:40am | Report comment
True, but since Mourie had only retired the previous year so he could publish his book (thus making him a professional!) I extended his career.
I guess Kiwis can tell me whether at 30 going on 31, Mourie would have kept Hobbs, aged 23, out of the side in 1983.
Jerry said | November 11th 2009 @ 6:43am | Report comment
I’m a bit young to comment. That 83 series v the Lions is one of my first rugby memories (I remember the 81 Bok tour, but only from the riots etc surrounding it, I was too young to understand the matches).
mcxd said | November 10th 2009 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
I was too young to know all about this but an enjoyable read Sheek (and commentators).. Romania hey ?? you learn something new every day.
Shahsan said | November 11th 2009 @ 6:40am | Report comment
Yah, they were very strong, probably good enough to join the Five Nations (of course, they would never have let them join, aside from France).
But they lost many players in the Ceaucescu upheaval (many of the players were in the police and armed forces) and the country went into turmoil and rugby there has never quite recovered.
funmaster said | November 10th 2009 @ 11:19pm | Report comment
A very good assumpting shahsan. Boks would”ve won that world cup. And i dont suppose the leister tigers were around back then? were they? if so, those 1983 boks should’ve warned today’s current crop of pathetic second-stringers-springbok-LOSERS! that you dont win by just showing up againts a team like leister tigers. Scrumming and knowing-what-to-do-with-ball-in-hand lessons are essential before a game.
I literally cried on friday night watching that game. Even thought of commiting suicide afterwards. But then i realize! the real boks, THATS RIGHT the real boks are only starting this friday againts France. So i returned my gun back to the safe and now i could go on with my daily life bussines. Hopefully the other boks (the LOSERS!) can go home now and start trainning for the super14 or whatever.
Oh well, Earl Rose, Houggard and John Deysel could stay in europe with the boks for a while thou. Anyway GO 1983 BOKS!
Shahsan said | November 11th 2009 @ 6:31am | Report comment
The Tigers were around back then, of course. And probably even better than they are now. Wheeler, Dodge, Woodward, Hare, Winterbottom, etc, if i remember correctly. They might have beaten the Boks second-stringers too!
sheek said | November 11th 2009 @ 6:49am | Report comment
Funmaster,
It’s a good thing Saffies don’t write rugby history. We would otherwise hear nothing but the Boks this, Boks that…..
You forget that the Boks would unlikely have competed in a RWC in 1983, unless they hosted it. And as good as they were, what they experienced in NZ in 1981, in terms of public disturbance, would haven nothing compared to what would happen in the UK, France & Ireland, with a greater concentration of people, especially West Indians, West Africans & Asian migrants.
Finally, great backline that the Boks could have had in 1983, Botha was more a roadblock than a feeder. And extra finally, we all know sport isn’t played on paper, but out on the field, where emotions & pressure can do funny things to a man, any man.
Oh, & when you get to the quarters of a RWC, it becomes a knock-out. The opposition only needs to put one good game on you, & you’re gone. Just ask the ABs!
Shahsan said | November 11th 2009 @ 10:11am | Report comment
Well, Sheek, it’s all conjecture anyway — such as players not going to league, or not being labelled pro etc — so maybe we should assume that apartheid was abolished too, so SA could play.
I’m no Saffie but for reasons i stated previously, they would have been the most pragmatic and would have found a way to win, even if it meant winning ugly. They’d have played 10-man rugby (and they had some top-notch cattle upfront), but backed up by a backline at least the equal of any of the others.
I suspect the romantics ie AB,s French and Wallabies, would have been perturbed by the rugby SA would play, thereby having the discussions we are having today.
sheek said | November 11th 2009 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Yeah, the Boks in 83 would have scared me assuming we lived in a perfect world.
It would have taken a mighty effort from the Wallas, ABs or French of the day to topple them.
But, it could have been done, all the same.
Remember, the basis of the Boks team in 83 put 50 points on the South American Jaguars (actually Argentina Pumas) in 82, only to lose the return match.
Ziggy said | November 11th 2009 @ 10:23am | Report comment
Sheek, that’s why Botha at Fly Half in the WC 83 may not have been a bad bet! He would have just kicked with that metronome accuracy and bored us all to death. BUT the Bok ship would have steadied like a rock and they would have had their hands on the WC!
Re your earlier request – Jimmy has given excellent overview but oddly does not talk about the two great centres of that Bok era. The incomparable Gerber and the unfortunate Willie du Plessis who could have gone on to greatness. Had coffee with Willie the other day(he now lives in Sydney) – terrifically modest as always.Brendan Venter was no slouch but never really gave his all to the game as he was more dedicated to gaining his medical degrees. He also had quite a temper and was famously red carded in one international for kicking some poor opponent.
A combination of Gerber and O’Driscoll would be a match made in heaven.With Ella at Flyhalf and Joost as scrummie.O’Reilly and Mordt as the wings and JPR lurking at Fullback.
Ah the fantasies of old men!
johnno42 said | November 11th 2009 @ 5:40pm | Report comment
fascinatin… lets all get in there and play “what if” and “lets pretend” games. guys the spring tours are happenin as we speak… helloooooo
Shahsan said | November 11th 2009 @ 9:34pm | Report comment
That;s a bit rude. As if what you say on any of the threads on the current tours — on team selections or who played well and who didn’t or what the coach — has any more relavance and meaning.
If you can’t join in this discussion, then don’t.
sheek said | November 12th 2009 @ 6:16am | Report comment
Johnn042,
Ditto what Shahsan said.
A man with his mind closed to the past remains in the dark.
sheek said | November 12th 2009 @ 6:10am | Report comment
Johnno42,
Ditto what Shahsan said. A man with a closed mind on the past remains in the dark.
It might surprise you to know rugby was played long before 2000……….
sheek said | November 12th 2009 @ 6:17am | Report comment
Wow Johnno – looks like you copped it in triplicate. Impatient sod I am waiting for reply to go through!
Harry said | November 12th 2009 @ 7:58am | Report comment
The Argies had a very very good side around then. Recall them destroying the Australian scrum at Ballymore in 1983 with Topo leading the way. Their geat flyhalf Hugo Porter was probably past his prime then – fairly portly on that tour I recall – but still a deadly boot and able (to use the modern terminology) to steer his team around the park with great expertise.
Parisien said | November 13th 2009 @ 11:08pm | Report comment
Great read Sheek. What a bunch of good players spread across the world! Is the spread so even today, and will the players be remembered as fondly 25 years on? Well done Sheek on putting it all together, and Robbo for remembering Romania.
Parisien said | November 13th 2009 @ 11:12pm | Report comment
Could computer game fans tell me if virtual rugby is any good? Would it be possible to hold a virtual 1983 World Cup?
Idle thinking while waiting for the France -South Africa kick-off…