By Jesse Fink
November 27th 2009 @ 6:34am
Related coverage
Australia not yet a player in Asia
During the week your blogger flew to Kuala Lumpur as a guest of the Asian Football Confederation, ostensibly to attend the AFC Annual Awards. But it was also an opportunity for me to see how Asian football actually works and I came home convinced Australia has Buckley’s chance of getting the 2018 or 2022 World Cup.
Les Murray, who was also with me in KL, assures me otherwise and believes Australia has a very good chance to get 2022, and he’s probably in a better position to judge, being involved with FIFA’s ethics commission and serving as chairman of the Asia-Pacific Broadcasting Union Sports Group (ABU).
For me, though, what struck me instantly about the gathering of dignitaries, special guests and heavy hitters at the AFC awards was the power that resides in the western and eastern blocs of the confederation: namely Saudi Arabia/the Gulf states and South Korea/Japan.
More than three-quarters of the awards went to Korea and Japan alone (FIFA vice-president Chung Mong-joon shouldn’t have bothered sitting down) and Mohamed bin Hammam, the AFC president, was conspicuously pally with Sheikh Mohammed bin Hamad Khalifa Al-Thani, the son of the Emir of Qatar, and his enormous retinue of hangers-on, including Hassan Al-Thawadi, the chief executive of the Qatar 2022 bid committee.
Though Frank Lowy was appropriately seated three or four seats away from the president, Ben Buckley and the rest of the FFA delegation was squirreled away on a table against the far wall. Even Les, in his capacity as ABU chairman, had a better seat.
During an interminable traditional Malay dance performance, Lowy got up and started walking around, looking lost. I walked over to him and asked him if he needed help. “I’m trying to find my people,” he said, referring to Buckley, and I pointed him in the right direction.
Australia was nominated in five awards out of a possible 18, and only Matthew Cream, as AFC Assistant Referee of the Year, took home a statuette. As we all well know, no Australian players were nominated in any of the categories.
It was a fairly underwhelming evening from a parochial perspective, especially at a time when the FFA is trying to put its best foot forward in the race for 2018 or 2022.
Meanwhile Qatar 2022 was pulling out all stops and sparing no expense, setting up a booth in the lower lobby of the Shangri-La Hotel where the awards took place, giving away T-shirts, stickers and ornamental glass footballs and flying in their star spruiker, Sami Al-Jaber, the Saudi Arabian World Cup legend, for photo-ops and interviews.
Australia had no such presence.
So in, many respects, apart from Lowy’s perfunctory address to the International Football Arena conference in the same hotel on the Tuesday , I would consider it an opportunity lost.
The FFA chairman talks of Asia being “the centre of the future of world football”, and I would agree, but from what I’ve seen Australia is just a peripheral player in the region, far from where the action is. The sales pitch needs to change.
Talking incessantly about Asia is only drawing attention to the strengths of the other bidding nations – Qatar, Japan, Korea and Indonesia – which are better placed to maximise the benefits Lowy talks about.
What would be a better strategy is for Australia and Indonesia to forge closer ties, and there was gossip during the week in KL that Indonesia had urged a meeting of ASEAN football leaders to admit Australia to the South-East Asian zone of the AFC as a full member.
While an Australia-Indonesia joint bid is something far off, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility.
As Lowy and Co know only too well, being a force in Asia is not about the size of your country but the quality of your relationships. The Australia–Indonesia one must now be a priority.
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BigAl said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
. . . !! but KB has been assuring us that the WC is in the bag ???
KB said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:52am | Report comment
don’t you read your own paper the AGE … ?
~~~~~~
KB
KB said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:28am | Report comment
Big Al,
just checking in to see if you had my comment deleted… Ha gee whizzz wonders will never cease, it’s still up…
Cheers for now
~~~~~~~
KB
BigAl said | November 28th 2009 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
KB . . . I’m afraid I’m going to do Pauline Hansen . . .’please explain!’
Why would I want your comment about the AGE deleted ? – was there something meant to be offensive about it ? If there was , it totally went over the my head !
In fact I have absolutely no idea what the point of your comment was ?????
I have never asked for anyones comment to be deleted ! – is it possible to do that ?t
KB said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
Big Al,
sorry I didn’t answer you question … yes it’s possible to have a comment deleted if it is not to your liking … “report comment” … I have never resorted to it myself.. I find it to be too cowardly a feature to use, however, it has been used on my comments over the past couple of years … No idea why of course
~~~~~~
KB
sledgeross said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Jesse, is it true that FIFA now has a mandate not to allow co-hosting of World Cups?
Freud of Football said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
In principle this is true, after Japan/Korea they won’t want to do it again, a logistical nightmare.
danny said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:33pm | Report comment
in practice, they’ll do whatever suits them best. spain/portugal and belgium/netherlands bids are going ahead strongly.
The Bear said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Joint bid with Indonesia? Why not have it over four regions. Say in China, Iran, Indonesia and Australia…?
Thanks for the perspective Jesse, probably a lot of egos held in check by the table placement. Lol, that Frank didn’t know where they “placed” our table. Probably did not want to ruffle his feathers…. too much.
Aljay said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:17am | Report comment
For all the talk about Mohammed bin Hamman’s spruiking, backroom FIFA deals from long ago and oil money, the fact is that Qatar is a country with a population the size of Sydney’s North Shore (approx 8-900,000) and about 400,000 temporary guest workers. 90% of these people live in Doha, making it about the size of Adelaide.
And they want to host a WC.
Alone.
I fall off my chair laughing when I consider this, but I clearly am missing something, as a large number of people are actually granting them credibility rather than ridicule. For instance, from memory the minimum number of stadiums for the world cup is 12, with no more than 2 allowed in each city, which would lead to a WC where half the stadiums have a greater capacity than the town/village they are based in. And I haven’t even started on the quality of their football team.
True Tah said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Aljay
I think what Qatar would do is probably try to do a joint Gulf Bid, with UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait and Oman.
Having said that, I still reckon they would struggle to meet the criteria.
Give them kudos for giving it a good shot, when people talk about Australia winning the hosting rights, I think it it based on what they want than anything else, what goodwill has Australia done generally for world futbol?? Maybe if they started assisting the Pacific Island states it might show something?
The Bear said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:00am | Report comment
Like including a New Zealand based club team in the HAL/ACL?
Tom said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Australia still has quite a bit of involvement with Pacific football. We’d probably be better off shifting that involvement towards Asia.
The idea of a joint bid with Indonesia is ridiculous. The two countries might be next to one another but its a long, long way from Sydney to Jakarta.
But I think Jesse is right that a closer relationship with Indonesia would be a positive step for Australia to immerse itself in Asia more. Even if its just sending some professional footballers over for a couple of weeks to run a few clinics in some of the poorer areas, or some pre-season friendlies between A-league and Liga Indonesia teams.
KB said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:16am | Report comment
TT
FFA and Rudd gov have redirected some $4m dollars to the Pacific nations to help with the development of Football in that part of the world only a month or so a go…
Mushi said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
By the same token why give it to a country with 20 million people over a land mass the size of the US?
If population size is going to be vital how come we haven’t been laughed off the world stage?
cruyff turn said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:17pm | Report comment
Too true Aljay, too true!
I don’t know why Fink feels so threatened by the other Asian bids – particularly Qatar. It’s the size of a postage stamp, yet how can it comply with FIFA’s guidelines on the stadiums? And what exactly have Qatar, or Indonesia, done ON THE FIELD to warrant hosting the game’s biggest event?
AndyRoo said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Thought I would add these little tid bits of news from the AFC executive meeting
The draw for the AFC Asian Cup 2011 will be held in April, 2010 in Doha, Qatar. In addition, Qatars are to be seeded among the top group.
• Al Sharjah, who withdrew from the AFC Champions League 2009 after four rounds, will be asked to pay US$382,168 as compensation for the cost incurred by AFC in organising the four group matches.
danny said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:12am | Report comment
hopefully when the bidding for 2022 comes around, and the asian delegates are parochially voting for their own bids, and they’re getting knocked off one by one, the groundwork that Lowy et al have put in with the rest of the world will pay off and Australia will survive early rounds. then it’s a matter of asia accepting us enough to vote for Australia rather than voting for the USA and waiting for 2026.
we may not be favoured within our own confederation, but i think outside of asia and concacaf (+/- conmebol) we’d be getting close to the preferred candidate. hopefully our own confederation can likewise support us.
regarding becoming full members of the ASEAN federation, definitely a good move. would be a step closer to being accepted by the afc member nations.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
The ASEAN move would be very interesting, especially as we’d have to enter an A-League based side into the Suzuki Cup which would prove a good testing ground for up and coming players. Certainly I’d like to see A-League clubs engaged in more cup competitions in the immediate region.
Aljay said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Truetah, yeah I thought that a “Gulf States” bid might be plausible, but they look set to go it alone and Sledgeross is correct that FIFA have disallowed joint bids. I think the Qatari bid is just bin Hamman trying to gain publicity for Qatar within the AFC and the Qatari government trying to gain support at home by tying itself to a popular sport (much like K Rudd here). Seems to me it is a ego/political bid more than a legit attempt to host the WC.
If FIFA awarded the WC to Qatar over England, Russia, Netherlands etc I think the major footballing nations in Europe would start WW3.
Freud of Football said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:50pm | Report comment
Don’t be so naive. Bin Hammam is the President of the AFC, he controls the way the nations will vote and he is going to put the Qatar bid ahead of Australia, Japan or Indonesia.
Further, Blatter owes him. Don’t be surprised if they make a “late dash”, then in 10 years we’ll discover it was already a done deal in 2008.
danny said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:39pm | Report comment
i think it’s naive of you to suggest that all of the afc representatives will bow meekly to bin hammam’s bidding. it wasn’t so long ago that the confederation was deeply divided. despite recent media reports that this is no longer the case, i wouldn’t be surprised if there were still deep resentments behind closed doors.
despite what bin hammam might want, i can’t see Chung Mong-joon, for instance (i’m pretty sure he’s on the voting panel), throwing away his vote needlessly. i think it will be quite a challenge to get the asian representatives united in the bidding, and it may take until late rounds for it to happen. i just hope australia has enough support from outside our own confederation to still be in the running at that point.
ABCDEFG said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Australia-Indonesia 2018? I don’t know about that….. I still think we have enough to get a World Cup for ourselves
aubgraham said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Not to mention the heat in Qatar – Asian Cup 2011 is begin held in January because of the heat. They couldn’t do that for the World Cup – must be June/July (much to our own consternation). As for joint bids, Spain-Portugal and Netherlands-Belgium suggests that joint bids (at least from the Euro zone) are not impossible.
Back to the heart of the article – if the idea is to get in bed with Indonesia for a joint bid then forget it. For the Russian bid the largest distance between two cities is approx 2000km (Sochi to Yekaterinburg), for the US bid the largest distance is 4000km (Boston to LA). Melbourne to Palambang is 5634.502 (second Indonesian Asian cup host city).
However, on a general note, I think working more closely with Indonesia is good politics. They are the fourth biggest in terms of population, they are the 5th largest economy, they are (as far as I know) passionate about football, even their domestic football. More importantly, if this article is correct, they actual want to work with us. I assume that entry as a full member of ASEAN would mean Australia would enter the ASEAN cup that is held every two years around December. A chance, perhaps, for the A-League Socceroos to get more of a taste of Asia.
Brian said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:10am | Report comment
The Qatari bid is a joke. In addition to Aijay’s points their football team is crap, they have serious issues with women’s rights and what they call “guest workers” are basically modern day slaves bought in from the rest of Asia to do the work Qataris don’t want to without getting any of the normal rights. Oh and of course the European supporters couldn’t drink as they pleased. Games will also be played at 40 degree + tempreatures, Israel would not be allowed to enter qualification and the security requirements for the US would be huge.
The most logical progression is still that England wil get 2018 and the US 2022, but if any of those bids slip up Australia probably next in line. If the English fail 2018 would still probably go to Spain/Portugal or Russia but if the US don’t get 2022 I can only see it going to Australia
Freud of Football said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
China has a terrible human rights record, yet they got the olympics.Qatar has the power and money to throw at a WC bid that Australia and Indonesia could never dream of and Japan wouldn’t bother competing as it wouldn’t be financially viable.
The Bishop said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:22am | Report comment
While events in Asia cause Jesse to think we do not have a chance of hosting the world cup, events in England in the last week have made us the current bookies favourites to win hosting rights.
http://www.watoday.com.au/sport/soccer/new-blow-to-faltering-england-bid-a-boost-for-australia-20091125-jrs1.html
dasilva said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Australia are doing pretty well with the international politics sides of things and gathering support overseas
Now the only thing we need now are stadiums and support from state governments and the public at home.
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Current ratings on our bid to date:
General spruiking, back slapping and gift giving: A+
Relations with our Asian colleagues: C-
Having the facilities on the ground: D-
AndyRoo said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Thankfully only the first catogary seems to be important.
Only about 3,150 days to go to OZ 2018
keeper11 said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
Hey PiP..
re your second point:
“Relations with our Asian colleagues: C-
so does that refer to football only , all sports or Austrlaian society as a whole?
guess australian football is paying the price for australia’s isolationism in general in their own neigbourhood….
only cricket has any major connection and links with Asia..but unfortunately the subcontinent are football lighweights..
.. and surely your not including the your prefered local code in this ..?
where the concept ‘Asia’ does not extend beyond a palce for an after-season piss-up…
despite their own hype.. a ‘ Z – ‘ rating would more than cover the anaemic contribution of our so-called ‘big’ local footy to asian relations..
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
keeper
I was influenced by Jesse’s article (which simply reinforced my view that our position within the AFC remains vulnerable).
KB said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:36am | Report comment
Pippi boy, still playing the role of the Football saboteur…. Mike Crockril is right onto you Grooky lot… 2018 Football WC is coming to Australia … get use to it…
~~~~~~
KB
Chook said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
good point. But if we continually qualify for the world cup and win the Asian Cup they can hardly ignore us for too long.
let the on field performance do the talking, do all the back ground stuff of actually have good football is more important.
we need to step up a level in the ACL and in the A- League.
I shoudl think we need to get a Asian league comp first before a WC.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
Assisting the AFC in developing football in some of the least developed nations wouldn’t go astray.
Tom said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Does anyone know if we’re doing anything for football in East Timor? That would be the obvious least developed nation that we have some kind of cultural connection with.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 27th 2009 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
something is happening as their youth sides are really doing well
AndyRoo said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
I think people are confusing accepted/vulnerable with liked.
I don’t think our position is Vulnerable, especially if we do well at the World Cup and I am fairly confident we will be solid enough (no 8 nil thrashings like the Saudis got) which stops people calling for the AFC to lose spots.
We have been in the confederation only 4 years and we expect to be the most popular kid in School?
We are the only white face in the AFC and we have done well not to be painted as the Villain. Although our bravado and calling ourselves favorites for the Asian 2007 world cup did make us play that role for a while.
I don’t see a lot of love between other countries in Asia (e.g. Japan and China) so why should we expect otherwise.
AGO74 said | November 27th 2009 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
good call AndyRoo. We may not necessarily be liked but we do bring extra credibillity to Asian football which is something it craves. Other people are also saying that we should be doing things around our near neighbours such as Indonesia or East Timor and there is nothing wrong with that in principle but even if we do, do you honestly think the real powerbrokers of the AFC over in the middle east or in China/Korea/Japan are going to give two hoots.
Towser said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
World Sports Group Head honcho Seamus O’Brien seems to think we are a player. As a man who has given the AFC US$1 billion to play with, I”ll back his inside knowledge above any Asian “Football expert” from Australia :-
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/2018-world-cup/asia-unites-for-world-cup-bid-261521
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
Towser
There is nothing new in what this bloke is saying:
Europe will get it in 2018
Australia is a good chance for 2022.
This has been the case now for over two years – since I wrote this blog on 1 November 2007:
http://pippinu.blogspot.com/2007/11/2018-realistic-or-pie-in-sky.html
But more recently, it has occurred to me why Australia is disadvantaged by having both Cups voted upon at the same time.
We’re not a chance for 2018, that’s a given.
If we had had a further 4 years to get ready for 2022, our bid would have looked a bit more credible – but at the moment – what the hell are we going to put into our bid document – what facilities do we have to point to? Six or seven cricket ovals?
As we stand at the minute – our bid looks absolutely laughable compared to the US – who can call upon 30 proper stadiums – all ready to go tomorrow morning if need be.
KB said | November 28th 2009 @ 8:12am | Report comment
Your argument is flawed, Japan/Korea and South Africa had virtual nil stadia in place… The final stadia requirements will be attended to once the bid is won, FIFA know that… FIFA are only interested in, wherever it goes that, it will be successful; not necessarily the best WC ever, but to take WC football to where it has not been before to grow the game globally… Two thirds of the world live in Asia and it’s the fastest growing economical region in any part of the world … this is the sort opportunity FIFA like to explore … the rest of the world is won… What FIFA want is total dominance and they will have their cake, by taking it into the last frontier Oceania via Asia … It will be the only opportunity to do so for a very long time in 2018, not 2022 you will see then a concentrated effort into Europe and Nth America than back to Europe…
Midfielder said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
Jes
Some sobering comments… I think Asia will get the 2022 & Europe 2018… I also through as some others have that joint bids were no longer allowed… But accept you say we can..
Assuming a joint Indonesian & Australian bid, it has many benefits, not the least political / cultural benefits ebbing from a better understanding of the two countries of each other… Aside from the Muslim / Christian issue would be Australian working with it’s closest and by far most populist neighbour.
Indonesia would become I think the first Muslim country to hold the world cup or Olympics I think.
We share similar time zones, so yes has a lot going for it…
I cannot see Qatar getting it, they have just over two million people… so do Japan get it or Australia or as you suggest Australia / Indonesia.
Jes not a bad article and you have left me with some thinking to do.
Midfielder said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Tow
I posted before I read your post from SBS….
As I said in my previous post I believe Asia will get 2022… simply because in China and especially China other sports are pushing for influence… cricket coming from India could take off as could basketball or baseball…think about this with almost half the worlds population a cricket fixed India / China would go close to having cricket overtake football as the world sport…
Who in Asia get it is up for grabbs but my reading of the tea leafs is Asia 2022 & 2030 /34 with China in 2030/34…Who ever get the nod in Asia will win IMO…
Jes’s point I guess is the blocks in Asia will vote for themselves and maybe do some kind of internal deal for each other at the expenses of Australia… however if Australia alined itself with Indonesia this would break or make such an allience impossible or much more difficult… HMMMmmmm not sure Jes but I do understand your point.
True Tah said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Cricket will never overtake futbol as the no.1 sport in China, and even if it did, just because the two most highly populated countries follow the same sport does not make it a global sport by any stretch.
Tifosi said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Mid,
Your point on China is the exact reason why Australia wont get it. If Asia gets 2022 China wont be able to host until 2034. I somehow doubt FIFA will wait that long to offer it to the Chinese.
So it will be
EUROPE 2018 ( Not sure which country yet)
USA 2022. ( Commercial GOLD MINE )
CHINA 2026.
Realfootball said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Sadly I don’t think we have a hope of getting a WC in my lifetime. We don’t have the muscle, the population or the facilities. It simply makes no sense on any level to give us the World Cup finals. Especially with domestic football struggling.
How I would love to be wrong, but our best hope is that global warming swamps the rest of the world and Australia is left with the only stadiums above water level. Sorry Mr Lowy, you’ve done wonderful things for the game in this country, but this really is a bridge way too far.
Victer said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
2026 may be too far away for a world cup not to be projected live in to east asia. That part of the world is FIFA’s jewel, not just china. If football has two out of the main three economic centres of the world (Asia and Europe) it puts itself in an overwhelming position on a global scale. Who is to say that Australia and China won’t hold a world cup in succession. Things change and and dominating East Asia could be a far more fruitful exercise for FIFA then to slowly chip away at the north american market.
Realfootball said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Victer, some things may change, but the indices of population and economics that govern these decisions will not. If football was doing better here it would help, but the A League is not succeeding. Standards are poor and the crowds are failing. How can it be argued that Australia deserves a world cup when we can’t even manage a decent domestic competition with any serious level of public support?
The Answer said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
Not sure about all this talk about Qatar ’set’ to go it alone. They are going it alone and already have a bid team working on it.
However, their bid is a farce, they want to move the World Cup to October or November for better conditions. Their best bet would be to build eight stadiums under ground or just give Sepp a billion dollars (so maybe not completely out of the question).
Jess, one of our strong points is our security and political stability why the hell would be want to wreck that by joining with indonesia, one of the regions most unstable countries?
pete said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
Yeah I agree with Pippinu. The USA have something in the region of 50 FIFA approved stadiums already (they could hold it tomorrow) we have only 5 stadiums at the moment (ANZ, SFS, MCG, Etihad, Suncorp).
After holding probably the most successful WC in 94 (average match attendance 68,000) they are a very big chance for either 18 or 22!
matty1974 said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:46pm | Report comment
Mr Fink and other doubters, if you think you know better than the UK’s leading bookmakers, who have Oz listed as favourites to host, then go ahead and place your bets on Qatar, Japan, USA etc. I am sure that William Hill will be happy to accept your hard earned. Here are 10 reasons why Oz will host either 2018 or 2022 (some already mentioned above).
1. One of the world cups will be between Asia and the USA. After Europe, Asia is the most important tv market. It is inconceivable that at least one of the 5 world cups between 2006-2022 will not be broadcast during Asian prime time.
2. Australia is the clearly the favourite Asian bid amongst the 20 FIFA EXCO members outside of Asia, who will effectively decide who wins. Who really believes that the Europeans and others will be happy to send their players, fans and officials to a country where the average June/July temperature is 40 degrees plus (Qatar) or where security (not to mention infrastructure) is a major concern (Indonesia). Remember, just a few months ago Man U cancelled their tour after further hotel bombings. Japan and Korea have hosted too recently and have little political support outside Asia.
3. Andreas Abold and his marketing firm are organising the Oz bid. He actually approached Australia, well before K Rudds announcement of the bid and won South Africa the 2010 cup and Germany 2006. I reckon he knows what he is doing.
4. K Rudd is an extremely conservative politician. There is no way he would hand over $45 M of public money, unless Australia had the financial and political capability to host the cup.
5. Unforunately for the USA and other doubters, you do not need 30-50 stadia, you only need 12 (actually probably only 10, given this is how many Sth Africa will use). OZ is half way there, i reckon we can conjure up 5-6 more by 2022.
6. The last USA WC was played to suit Euro time Zones. The next USA WC bid will want the games played in USA primetime (see USA manipulation of Olympic schedules) = early hours and morning in Europe and Asia. Not going to happen.
7. FIFA have given Sydney hosting rights to live sites in 2010 (along with 6 other former FIFA WC final host cities). Clearly a test of Australia’s enthusiam for the cup. Ask yourself, why no New York, Tokyo etc?
8. Australia is a safe, fun place for tourists and officials, media, fans, teams and officials and has an outstanding track record of hosting int’l evetns. After the uncertainties of Brazil and Sth Africa, FIFA will be looking for a safe pair of hands.
9. Australia/Oceania has never hosted a up before. FIFA is all about leaving legacies, ie Sth Africa, Brazil etc. Our main rivals have already had a go.
10. The Socceroos. It is important that the host country does well. FIFA know that Aus national team will put up a great showing, maybe even make semis, final or win?
So get onboard, stop doubting and COME PLAY!
Realfootball said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:56am | Report comment
“Leaving legacies” – yes, which is why the US would get another crack before we get our first. Or China. Or India. If you’re going to leave a legacy, you want to make it count. A small country of 20 million with a population who – going by the A League – on the whole doesn’t support the code doesn’t really stand up in “legacy” terms, I’m afraid.
Personally I think it would be much better if all this effort went into building the ailing A League.
matty1974 said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:58pm | Report comment
One more thing. Mr Lowy. If a Jewish man, who provides support to Israel, can convince a muslim Qatari that the European nation of Australia deserves to be accepted into Asia, then I think he has the political and diplomatic smarts to get us the WC.
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:27pm | Report comment
No doubt – that was a remarkable feat (which can be turned around in the blink of an eye).
But can Lowy make the quantity and quality of necessary facilities materialise out of thin air?
Did the bookies frame their odds before or after having a look at Australia’s threadbare bid?
Feel free to gain solace from wherever you can find it – one can only imagine what the FIFA executive will think when we come forward with our bid containing 8 out of 12 stadiums being cricket ovals.
Tifosi said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:34pm | Report comment
Pip,
You hear that sound?
Its the laughter from the FIFA Executive committee when they see cricket ovals being presented in our bid.
cruyff turn said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
It’s no worse than stadiums with running tracks. If I remember correctly, the Olympic Stadium in Berlin (used for the last Final) had a track, as did Yokohama Stadium – the venue for the 2002 Final.
danny said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:45pm | Report comment
bookies don’t make their money by just making up odds. they would have done their homework.
i think, pip, that you (and many others here, myself included) put undue significance on the stadiums being put forward in the bid. there are countless other aspects of the bid where we perform quite well, and as the south african bid will attest, fifa view the stadium proposals as more of a suggestion than a contract.
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
danny
we can discount Sth Africa – what happened then, and what happens for 2018/2022 are two completely different things.
danny said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:45pm | Report comment
i don’t think it’s entirely fair to discount the south african experiences. they put forward a successful bid which included newlands in cape town and kings park in durban. after winning the bid, it was made clear by fifa that those venues weren’t acceptable. along came green point and moses mabhida stadiums to fill the void.
i don’t see any reason to completely discount something similar happening in our case. fifa have a way of bending the rules (slash ignoring them, creating new ones) to produce their desired outcome. if they want us to host, but don’t think that adelaide oval/docklands/carrara etc are acceptable, i wouldn’t rule out those grounds disappearing and being replaced.
on a similar note, the oft-stated rule that only one city can have more than one stadium. i’ve never seen this in any official documents, only on forums such as this one. granted, in recent years this has been the case (whether by ruling or convenience). however, in spain 1982, both madrid and barcelona had two stadiums. a good precedent for our own bid.
i think we’d do well to not ignore the past regarding this bid.
Tifosi said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:37pm | Report comment
Matty 74
7. FIFA have given Sydney hosting rights to live sites in 2010 (along with 6 other former FIFA WC final host cities). Clearly a test of Australia’s enthusiam for the cup. Ask yourself, why no New York, Tokyo etc?
If FIFA had any clue they would have given it to Melbourne. Watch how empty Sydney will be for this thing.
danny said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:48pm | Report comment
disagree. sydney people will turn out in droves for the official live site.
melbourne people, in contrast, will turn up regardless.
matty1974 said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
Pip/Tifosi …none of us have yet seen the bid book and planned stadia that will be presented to fifa ..it is all just speculation from mainly afl/nrl aligned journos, trying to make sure that their codes get the maximum outcome in terms of stadia or compensation. 8 cricket ovals? last time i checked SFS, ANZ, Suncorp, likely Canberra, Newcastle and townsville options are not cicket ovals. stadia is not going to be an issue. like i said, K rudd has a dozen spin doctors telling him what colour tie to wear, he is not going to risk $45 m in taxpayer funds, if there was the slightest chance that a couple of knuckle dragging state premiers were going to embarass him and the bid. Put yourself in the shoes of the recalcitrant premiers whose main constituency are AFL lovers. You’ve got to at least be seen to be doing something when another code potentially is going to get a gigantic boost in exposure, public and govt patronage. stop fighting it, you know how incredible it will be when it happens. cheers!
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:35pm | Report comment
matty
Canberra are still uncommitted to it (last I heard).
Adelaide and Perth will only get involved if it means big upgrades to exsiting cricket ovals – but the states don’t want to pay (and you can’t blame them, most of the states are broke).
Work out your 8 host cities – and I tell you what – it’s a bit of a stretch on that front alone!
The $45 mill is nothing in the scheme of things – twenty times that amount in public money gets wasted each year doing not very much (and that’s a very conservative estimate).
Two interesting scenarios have been presented to me in terms of Rudd’s enthusiastic involvement:
1. He knows absolutey nothing about sport (and if you’ve ever seen him at a Brisbane Lions game, you’d know exactly what I mean) – in other words, on this occasion, he was taken for a bit of a ride by the smooth talking Lowy; or
2. The Spiro theory: Rudd did for personal self-aggrandisement, hoping to nail some big UN post after he retires with the aid of some useful connections.
My personal theory: Lowy would have known from day one this was all a long shot – it’s a way to get a stack of publicly funded PR for the game, and with a little luck, some new stadiums might come out of it (stadiums that soccer would never get off the back of the A-League) – whether Australia ends up hosting is neither here or there if he can achieve that much.
danny said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:55pm | Report comment
canberra’s just posturing, as are all the governments. if we win, canberra will be included, and they’ll have a fancy new ground to go with it (http://www.canberrastadium.com.au/about/documents/090527A1Board7CS4MPCANBERRASTAD1.pdf).
similarly, rumour has it that stadium wa is going to make a long-awaited return as part of the bid. which, although primarily an oval, had much better transitional seating than docklands does. this is still speculation, i’ll admit, but so is what everyone else has said.
radelaide appears to be the only one offering up a sub-standard venue at present, which is unfortunate, but on past form fifa would not hesitate to demand either a new option or radelaide dropped from the bid.
bid doesn’t look that bad with a bit of faith (delusion?).
dasilva said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
Pip
We find out somewhere this December
If we can’t put out a list of stadium for the bid by then (as there is a due date) then we will be eliminated from the bidding process rather unceremoniously and humiliatingly. That would make FFA and Frank Lowy the laughing stock of Australia and the world and would overturn any good PR they have done overseas.
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
das
Jimbo says we have 11 stadiums now ready to go.
jimbo said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:37pm | Report comment
Australia already meets the FIFA WC selection criteria for stadia –
at least 9 stadia in total – all with a minimum capacity of 40K
2 stadia for semi-finals and final with a minimum capacity of 60K.
The rectangular rugby grounds are ideal for football and football games have been played at AFL and cricket grounds for years and while not ideal, there is no FIFA regulation about how close the seats have to be to the sideline.
This is not a blocker for getting the 2018 or 2022 WC finals played here – we could stage them without spending another cent on stadia.
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:44pm | Report comment
jimbo
There are regs about how close the seats need to be form the centre of the ground – and for the MCG, it fails the test for about 10,000 or so seats.
jimbo said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:21pm | Report comment
Pip,
where did you read that – I can’t find it on the web?
AndyRoo said | November 28th 2009 @ 8:07am | Report comment
that’s what they call dead seats pip. That’s not so much a problem but when fifa count capacity they subtract the dead seats from the total
matty1974 said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:52pm | Report comment
Pip,here’s a conspiracy theory for you. K Rudd is actually a very intelligent guy, who has worked out (for the reaons mentioned above) that Oz is at least a 50/50 chance to host the biggest sporting and cultural event on the planet, delivering amazing amounts of economic activity, political and national cache and further integrates Oz into Asia.
If you’re a FIFA exco member and you have to choose a non euro nation to host the other wc, who you going to choose?
1. Qatar, a Islamic nation (remember grog companies are keen for a bit of the action) that somehow plans to build 10-12 stadiums and 32 training venues that can combat the 40+ degree heat.
2. Indonesia, nuff said.
3. Japan, which has only just hosted.
4. Korea, see above.
5. USA, judging by the 2016 Olympic bid result, not the flavour of the month, has previously hosted and would either play the games during the daytime (to suit Europe, but providing little benefit to the host nation and ensuring games are beamed into asia in the middle of the night) or during american prime time (meaning Europe has to stay up all night and Asia gets the games in the early morning, thus alienating the two most important TV markets). The whole purpose of awarding both events at the same time is to maximise tv revenue. OR
6. Australia, with all the benefits mentioned above, who may have between 3-5 multipurpose venues.
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:02pm | Report comment
Matty
at least we can all agree that 2018 is a lost cause.
Right?
And yet both Rudd and Lowy are telling the Australian population that we are actually a chance for 2018. The $46 mill was to go for both 2018 and 2022 (a couple of nations are going after 2022 only).
So who knows what people are motivated by – but if that isn’t the biggest bare faced lie I have ever heard coming from anyone….
jimbo said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:43pm | Report comment
Pip,
I don’t agree that 2018 is a “lost cause” – we are actually favoured to win it in a few circles.
No one is lying about our chances – whoever wins it has to take a risk that they may lose and that costs money to put in a bid in the first place.
$42M is about half what the bulldogs AFL club spent on their latest home ground development funded by state, local and federal money.
http://www.homeground.org.au/nwi-2-36-42-BulldogsHomeGroundSocialHousingInitiative.htm
matty1974 said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:20pm | Report comment
No problems, in all likelihood 2018 will be Europes, but why wouldn’t you put in for both? Big mistake made by Qatar and Korea bidding for 2022 only, reduces your bargaining power. Who knows why they are pushing for 2018, maybe Frank’s advancing years? doesn’t really matter, as long as we get one of them. re the bid and stadia, still haven’t been able to find accurate FIFA guidelines about the bid process, as opposed to the guess work that goes on here and in the papers. But I did find this on the FIFA website
“Approximately 12 stadiums with minimum capacities of between 40,000 for group matches and 80,000 for the opening match and final, are required to host the FIFA World Cup”
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/99/74/80/20182022invitationtobidcirculare.pdf
Notice it says Approximately! if we can provide 10 acceptable venues, I can see FIFA telling us not to worry about the Carrara AFL venue, Adelaide Oval.
As far as I’m aware, the December 2009 deadline is just a guarentee that the cash needed to host will be there, it is May 2010 when the finer details are required. Happy to be proved otherwise.
jimbo said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:34pm | Report comment
matty,
I read “between 9 to 12 stadiums” and “60K capacity for the finals”
We have 2 stadia with over 80K capacity anyway.
SA will use 10 stadia for 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup
danny said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:47pm | Report comment
i think it’s 60k for semi-finals, 80k for final (+/- opener) and the final venue can’t be used in the semis. so we’re one short in the large-capacity venues – an upgraded lang park, or stadium wa, could fill the void.
jimbo said | November 28th 2009 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
Australia already has 2 world class stadia that hold over 80K
MCG – 97K,
Sydney Olympic Stadium –84K.
Plus we have have another 8 stadia that hold over 40K –
AAMI Stadium – 52K
Queensland Athletic Stadium – 49K
Gabba Brisbane – 42K
Suncorp Brisbane – 53K
Etihad Stadium – 57K
Sydney Cricket Ground – 44K
Sydney Football Stadium – 46K
Subiaco Oval – 42K
No need to spend billions if you don’t want to.
Although governments use the World Cup as an excuse to create jobs and improve infrastructure and are willing to outlay the money for the benefits, as we did for the 2000 Olympics which gave us the Sydney Olympic complex and untold sporting and recreation facilities and a whole new suburb of Sydney.
If we did win a WC bid I wonder where the opening ceremony, opening game, final and closing ceremony would be played.
It would be fought out between Sydney and Melbourne.
Pippinu said | November 28th 2009 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Jimbo
I believe only one city can have two stadiums.
If that’s true, a few of your stadiums end up getting knocked on the head.
There need to be 8 host cities – I can only count five cities in the examples you gave.
AndyRoo said | November 28th 2009 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
I think we are getting too worried about the rules.
Parramatta is legaly it’s own city, we can massage some borders to get it in.
Same with the ovals. They can put signage or paint the spare grass with sponsers logos, then it’s $$$ vs Spectator comfort.
The power of positive thinking, which thankfully might be enough because most of the non euro bids look pretty shaky and even the Us bid team has struggled funding wise. after missing out on the olympics Obama supports the bid for the world cup but he hasn’t let them use his credit card.
jimbo said | November 28th 2009 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
Pip,
the rules keep changing and I don’t think that will be the case for Australia.
The England bid has nominated 3 stadia in London.
Pippinu said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Jimbo
have you seen their bid book first hand?
England will have zero trouble coming up with the requisite stadiums – they could host the damn thing tomorrow.
danny said | November 29th 2009 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
i’m yet to see it stated anywhere that only one city can have two stadiums, despite it constantly being brought out as gospel. by contrast, spain 82 had both barcelona and madrid with two stadiums.
on the topic of london, they are proposing 4 london-based stadiums; wembley, emirates, olympic, and new white hart lane. also putting forward anfield, stanley park and kirkby from liverpool. unlikely they’d use more than 2 and 1 from london and liverpool respectively, just shows there’s no problem with putting forward multiple options to let fifa choose from.
Midfielder said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:47pm | Report comment
I think we will win 2022….. or more Asia will win 2022… who Asia picks will be interesting…
matty1974 said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:56pm | Report comment
In 2002, Korea/Japan used 9 oval athletic stadiums!
Realfootball said | November 28th 2009 @ 8:07am | Report comment
This reminds me a little of Nero fiddling while Rome burned. We have a domestic league that by any measure is in trouble – standards are poor and crowds are declining or static at best. The excitement of the first couple of seasons has given way to apathy. Mainstream media coverage is negligable. The salary cap isn’t working because the closeness of the competition obviously doesn’t bring people to games – this much we can now say is an indisputable fact. All this energy and money would be be better spent creating a viable domestic competition. Maybe then we might have a chance of hosting a WC.
Midfielder said | November 28th 2009 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
Sorry posted in the wrong thread
matty1974 said | November 28th 2009 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
Realfootball, Japan was awarded the WC as co host in 1996. The J league average attendance in 1996 was 13,000. When the USA was awarded the 1994 WC, they did not even have a pro comp in existence. Last weeked, the South African Premier league’s 8 fixtures averaged just over 11,000 (6 of the 8 games had crowds of 8,000 or less). Clearly having an EPL standard comp is not a requirement of a succcessful WC bid. In fact your argument is just another reason to award OZ the Cup, it will help build interest in and grow the A league.
Pippinu said | November 28th 2009 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
matty
the major flaw with everything you have written is that both 2002 and 2010 were allocated during the now defunct “rotation policy” – as soon as Blatter got his WC in Africa, he ditched the policy.
So it’s a waste of time referring to 2002 and 2010 – they both represent ancient history.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
This is where a Qatari bid will struggle as there is an important “legacy to football” element that needs to be a part of each bid.
tifosi said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
Its not all about stadiums though. host countries must make 17 guarantees to FIFA. These are listed here:
http://www.sa2010.gov.za/en/guarantees
I would really love to go thru the bid book to see what else is required. I believe its 1200 pages long though !!
Pippinu said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
tifosi
I don’t think Australia will have any problems with these sorts of guarantees – our public administration (which is what is covering off all of these) are world class – you should know that coming from Canberra!!
Brian said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
There still is a rotation policy, just not as stringent as before but no continent can host consecutively or every 2nd turn. In other words with Africa having 2010 & S.America 2014, than 2018, 2022 & 2026 will be split one Asia, one Europe, one N.America. The question is whether Australia can get the Asian one. The answer should be yes unless China bids for 2026
Pippinu said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
Brian
the “rotation policy”, as it was implemented prior to Asia and Africa getting the WC, is gone.
danny said | November 29th 2009 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
further to pip, it’s no longer a rotation per se, rather a lock out for each confederation for two cups after they host. technically, africa were able to bid for 2022 but chose not to. egypt were rumoured to be bidding for a while.
there’s no mandate that 2018-2026 will be shared between europe, asia and north america. it’s just logic that dictates this, as these regions share the wealth.
tifosi said | November 28th 2009 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
http://au.sports.yahoo.com/news/article/-/6527178/rudd-in-fifa-talks-about-world-cup-bid/
Rudd still spruiking Australia’s bid. If australia misses out it wont be from lack of trying.
I noticed Gordon Brown was also spruiking to Warner
Midfielder said | November 28th 2009 @ 10:54pm | Report comment
Same thing slightly different info
http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/2009InsideFFA/default.aspx?s=insideffa_newsfeatures_newsitem_new&id=31032
matty1974 said | November 29th 2009 @ 7:52am | Report comment
Pip, sounds like you’ve firmly made up your mind that Oz will not host. But I’ll leave you with two questions.
1. Which will make FIFA more money in TV rights and sponsorship (USA having bigger stadiums does not come into it, the host nation will keep most of the ticket sales). A WC screened in USA prime time or one screened in Asian prime time?
2. Which of the bidding (not China, India etc, they are not bidding) Asian nations presents a more compelling case than Australia?
cheers.