Wallabies coach Robbie Deans is putting a brave face on a brutal 2015 Rugby World Cup draw which puts Australia in the pool of death with fellow heavyweights England and Wales.
Only two can advance to the quarter-finals and – being the team to miss out from the cut-throat pool A, which also includes two qualifiers – is an unthinkable prospect for two-time World Cup winners Australia.
Fresh from their stunning 38-21 defeat of the world champion All Blacks at the weekend, the young England team loom as a huge hurdle in three years time with their World Cup host home-ground advantage.
And the Wallabies are keenly aware of how tough Six Nations champions Wales are these days, having snatched a lucky last-gasp 14-12 win on Saturday in the last of the two teams’ four close encounters in 2012.
Deans admitted the draw finalised in London on Monday would be seen as the toughest in the competition.
“When you look at the sides and you look at history, that’s an easy suggestion to make, but they’re all tough,” Deans said.
“The fact of the matter is once you get into the tournament, there’s no such thing as an easy draw.”
He said it was early days to be making judgments about teams’ World Cup chances.
“We’ve seen in recent times Test match rugby is about in-the-now, it’s about on-the-day, and nothing that’s happened before has any relevance on what’s coming after, so we (have) just got to keep working our way through the program,” Deans said.
Flanker David Pocock was also present for Monday’s draw in London and toed the same line, while admitting England’s Cup host status would give them an added edge.
“As Robbie said, there’s going to be no easy games and, to win the tournament, you have to beat the best and deal with what you’re dealt,” said Pocock.
However, the 23-year old added that England go into the tournament with an edge as host nation.
England coach Stuart Lancaster called it “fate” that his side drew a pool with Australia and Wales.
“It’s a pretty tough pool,” said Lancaster. “Wales, I’ve got a huge amount of respect for what they’ve done recently.
“Australia have just beaten us and are an incredibly competitive nation. We’ll look forward to it in a few years’ time,” added Lancaster, bidding to follow Clive Woodward, the man behind England’s 2003 Webb Ellis Trophy triumph.
Pool B brings together seeds South Africa, Samoa and Scotland.
Top-ranked New Zealand headline Pool C along with Argentina and Tonga while, in Pool D, the top teams are France, Ireland and Italy.
The quarter-final draw could put New Zealand up against France – who knocked them out in the last eight in 2007 and met them in the 2011 final – or Ireland.
Meanwhile the winners of England, Australia or Wales will face the runners-up from Pool B who, on current form, are likely to be Samoa or Scotland.
Whoever wins Pool A will avoid New Zealand until the final provided the All Blacks, as they’ve done at every previous World Cup, win their group.
The Pool B winners will meet the runners-up from Pool A with the winners of Pool D, where France will be the favourites, facing the runners-up from Pool C, likely to be Argentina or Tonga.
The 2015 World Cup in England, the eighth edition of the tournament, will run from September 18 to October 31, 2015, with the final at Twickenham.
© AAP 2013- Explore:
- robbie deans, Rugby Union, wallabies

December 5th 2012 @ 5:49am
mania said | December 5th 2012 @ 5:49am | Report comment
no sht sherlock
December 5th 2012 @ 9:57am
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:57am | Report comment
What has Kurt Sherlock got to do with all this?
December 5th 2012 @ 12:27pm
jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
I wonder if Robbie is going to start building and have the team learning lessons again.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:41pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
How to catch, draw then pass would be a good start.
December 5th 2012 @ 2:41pm
Ra said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
thats club and age group rugby stuff argyle
December 5th 2012 @ 2:43pm
Ra said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
s there a rugby train the trainers VET programme around????? Surely thats not the national coaches job
December 5th 2012 @ 3:33pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Exactly Ra – they need to learn that first!
December 5th 2012 @ 10:03pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:03pm | Report comment
Exactly see my points on kletsical’s third post about that.
December 6th 2012 @ 12:13am
Bakkies said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:13am | Report comment
Funny that people are advocating Burgess because he is ”test quality.” He struggles with catching, passing and drawing the pure basics.
December 6th 2012 @ 2:36am
jeznez said | December 6th 2012 @ 2:36am | Report comment
agree, I’d say Burgess’s passing was worse than Phipps – remember the pass over Giteau’s head and the deadball line?
December 6th 2012 @ 11:14am
Bakkies said | December 6th 2012 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Yes too well.
December 5th 2012 @ 6:05am
Billy Bob said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:05am | Report comment
I am not the first to say it but all World Cups are a knockout. And if you don’t win it you have been knocked out, sooner or later.
Now that this draw has everyone’s attention, could we please now get some action on developing rugby in this country? Starting with the Tahs.
Let the arguments begin.
December 5th 2012 @ 7:56am
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 7:56am | Report comment
World Cups are about winning 7 games in a row. Deans has won 5 (his first 5 in charge) and then never passed 4 on the trot since then. And he wants the gig to 2015:
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/australia-rugby/underfire-deans-wants-to-plot-course-to-2015-world-cup-with-wallabies-20121204-2atat.html
Well blow that for a bunch of bananas, I’ll be dusting off my British passport and cheering for someone else if he does.
December 5th 2012 @ 8:03am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:03am | Report comment
fickle
i sir will be supporting my team and country.
December 5th 2012 @ 8:16am
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:16am | Report comment
That’s because you’re not a well travelled citizen of the world who has two countries – you don’t have any choice.
A team isn’t “mine” just because I live somewhere; they don’t get my loyalty by default, they have earn it.
December 5th 2012 @ 9:06am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:06am | Report comment
i’m a british passport holder fella and once lived in london for 10 years. i’ve also travelled across every continent except antarctica.
i’m as much a citizen of the world as anyone but i’m also australian first and will remain so till the day i die which includes supporting the wallabies through thick and thin. England will always remain my second team.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:20am
Rob said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Be sure to stop commenting on the roar when you leave.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:25pm
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
That’s because you obviously feel an special affinity for Australia and call it home. That’s nice for you. I don’t. Just because you can’t understand a different outlook doesn’t make me fickle.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:04pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
i think turning your back on anything in times of need is fickle.
December 5th 2012 @ 2:07pm
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
So you’re beholden to anyone who claims to “need” you?
Moreover the Wallabies and the ARU don’t need us, they don’t even want us, if they cared about the public they would listen to them about the direction of the national team and put money at grassroots level.
December 5th 2012 @ 2:25pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
if you cared about grass roots rugby you’d be out there coaching and encouraging people to take an interest in the sport, spending their money at the tills etc which flows down to grass roots, not spending your time belittling the wallabies and the ARU.
if you cared about the game, not your immediate needs of entertainment as a means to boost your self esteem hinged on the results of a team that kick and run with a ball, you’d have a much more positive outlook on life and your expectations on the wallabies would be more realistic.
December 5th 2012 @ 2:58pm
Ra said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
is this a private conversation between two roaming gypsies????? Then private message each other eh.
Red you are well known for your negative feedback. I thought it was because you are anti Deans, not necessarily anti Kiwi
But now I realise that you’re anti everybody, so the impact of your great loss to theroar, will be welcomed by all with a can of VB
Oh and tidy the couch will you, we don’t want any remindersthat you were here
December 5th 2012 @ 4:35pm
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
I was going to laugh at you calling me negative after reading your “contributions” to this story’s comments section … then I realised I should be more compassionate and pity you. I sense tears from the two of you – would you like tissues? How about a hug?
December 5th 2012 @ 10:47pm
bill said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:47pm | Report comment
I will support the wallabies for the world cup….I thought that was a given for every Aussie (except red the negative kev)
December 5th 2012 @ 8:48am
soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
kev i reckon we could drop one and still win. there’s not too many teams outside the all blacks that have gone on decent winning trots. last wc only the all blacks won more than 4 in a row i think (i know they won but wales and france were in with a good shake at least)
December 5th 2012 @ 9:18am
Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Not quite – in fact all the pool winners (NZ, Ireland, England & SA)won 4 in a row, but other than NZ no one won 5 (as the other 3 pool winners all lost their 1/4 finals).
That is something of an anomaly in that 3 of the 4 semi-finalists had suffered a loss up to that point – if you look at previous WC’s:
1987 – All 4 semi-finalists undefeated
1991 – 3 out of 4 semi-finalists undefeated
1995 – All 4 semi-finalists undefeated
1999 – all 4 semi-finalists undefeated
2003 – All 4 semi-finalist undefeated
2007 – 2 out of 4 semi-finalists undefeated
So, it’s only happened 6 times in RWC history and half of those were at one tournament. Most of the time the semi-finalists are on a 4-5 match winning streak.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:14pm
soapit said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
so isnt that what i said, no one except nz won MORE than 4 in a row?
i agree that its unusual compared to history but i also think there is some truth with what people are saying regarding the closing of the gap in the last few years (though i dont think it extends down more than about 3 ranking spots from any given team – anything else is a genuine upset associated with a uniquely great performance/luck/weather/uniquely poor performance etc)
December 5th 2012 @ 12:18pm
Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Out-pedanted!
Quite right, you did write that.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:39pm
Neuen said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:39pm | Report comment
And those 2 undefeated semi finalist met each other in a semi final while the two group losers met in the other
December 5th 2012 @ 9:23am
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Almost doesn’t really cut it – if Deans get 8 years and loses the 2015 RWC final his tenure is still a failure.
Has an RWC winner ever lost an RWC match in the year they won? (I am not sure but I don’t think it has happened)
December 5th 2012 @ 9:46am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Deans tenure has been a success and a failure. His win percentages against SA are the best of any wallaby coach and his win percentages over the collective european countries is above average. That is a statistical fact.
But our win percentages against NZ are well below average which has been a monumental failure and brings his average win ratio down below par. (Most international coaches don’t have to play new zealand 3 or 4 times a year so the total win ratios are misleading). Plus Is the Head coach fully responsible? Well perhaps he is perhaps he isn’t. There are other factors to consider of course and I think you know that. But if we did start beating the new zealanders next year it would also not all be down to Deans’ coaching. super xv form etc must be a key indicator odf how to measure a wallaby coaches success.
in saying all that red kev despite that i think deans has done as good a job as any realistic person would expect it is time for him to step aside and give the next guy a go. I’d be saying this whether we’d won a bledisloe this year or not.
one thing i think we agree is that deans has had enough time at the helm and should step aside straight after the lions series win or lose!
December 5th 2012 @ 12:01pm
kingplaymaker said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
mark that is not the best point I’ve ever heard. The Lions are a combination of England, who just beat New Zealand by the second largest ever margin, Wales, who won the Six Nations beating England and the defeated RWC finalists France, Ireland, who are a strong team often beating Wales and England, and Scotland who while weaker always produce a handful of outstanding forwards.
To defeat a union of all that talent would be an incredible achievement and the ide of firing the coach after that bizarre.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:18pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Yet the lions have lost their last 3 series…
December 5th 2012 @ 12:19pm
Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Yeah, but those sides have to come together and form new combinations while on tour. There’s a reason the Lions have lost the vast majority of their tours. Beating the Lions isn’t ‘incredible’ at all.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:37pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
did i say fire him? i said step aside. theres a difference!
Rod Macqueen did it the last time when we beat the lions!
thanks for the breakdown on which countries make up the british and irish lions. i didn’t know that i thought they came from mars.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:38pm
kingplaymaker said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
In fact they lost to outstanding sides if you think about it.
The 2009 South African team was one year before the law interpretations outdated their 10 man rugby style, had just won the RWC.
The 2005 New Zealand team was tremendous.
The 2001 Australian team was excellent too.
It’s a long way from easy.
December 5th 2012 @ 2:32pm
Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
It’s not ‘easy’ but neither is it ‘incredible’.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:23pm
Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:23pm | Report comment
Dude youve got some weird ideas.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:42pm
Ra said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:42pm | Report comment
Red I’ve been on about whinging Aussies for a while now in here, but now you’ve “come out”, hey whinging Poms always have the inside lane in that department – i hate it when I’ve gotta apologise to an Aussie – so i married one, now im really sorry…
December 5th 2012 @ 8:53pm
Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
World cups are not about winning 7 in a row.
France lost twice in their pool and made the final.
Just say “Im not going to comment of this article seriously but I would like to reiterate my irational hate for Deans”
Thats pretty much what you said anyway.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:24pm
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:24pm | Report comment
Have France won a world cup? No. Winning the Rugby World Cup is about winning every match, that’s 7 in a row now.
1987 RWC Champions = NZ, RWC match record 6-0
1991 RWC Champions = Aus, RWC match record 6-0
1995 RWC Champions = SA, RWC match record 6-0
1999 RWC Champions = Aus, RWC match record 6-0
2003 RWC Champions = Eng, RWC match record 7-0
2003 RWC Champions = SA, RWC match record 7-0
2011 RWC Champions = NZ, RWC match record 7-0
December 5th 2012 @ 11:02pm
Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:02pm | Report comment
Youre weird.
The WC isnt about winnig 7 in a row. France could have lost 2 and won the WC. Wtf are you talking about? Youre going on and on about it but you are 100% wrong. You DONT have to win 7 in a row.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:13pm
Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:13pm | Report comment
I get it, you dont like Deans becuz Aust has the 2nd best win loss ratio in the top 10 for 2012.
But dont try and pass off some BS about Aust not having won more than 5 in a row with Deans as some kind of factual evidence that they cant win a WC with him.
Its rubbish, you know it but just wont let it go.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:20pm
biltongbek said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:20pm | Report comment
That is infact incorrect hightackle.
http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+jan+2012;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team
December 6th 2012 @ 8:23am
soapit` said | December 6th 2012 @ 8:23am | Report comment
yep we have the fifth highest win/loss ratio. would you reconsider your support for deans i wonder?
December 6th 2012 @ 5:42am
Red Kev said | December 6th 2012 @ 5:42am | Report comment
“could have” … DIDN’T
FACT – every world cup champion WINS every match. Deans can’t coach his way out of a cereal box, let alone to a streak of more then 5 wins in a row.
FACT – NZ, SA, Samoa and France all have better win-loss ratios than the Wallabies in 2012 and are all top ten nations.
Thanks for playing.
December 6th 2012 @ 8:37am
soapit` said | December 6th 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
france came within 1 point of breaking that record, its certainly quite possible. nothing stays the same forever.
December 5th 2012 @ 8:09am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:09am | Report comment
i said last year that we were just as likely to lose one of the matches to ireland or Italy at 2011 RWC if we sustained too many injuries. That was what happened and I was not surprised. I posted that all it takes is a weakened side due to injury for us and we are not cappable of winning through to the half of the draw that we think. for the Ireland match we lost pocock and moore, plus Palu and robinson were unavailable. We got smashed up front! if this type of thing happens in 2015 well we simply don’t have the depth of NZ, England, France or SA.
depending on injuries it is possible that we lose to both england and wales, or to one of them if we can’t have the likes of Genia Poocck etc avaialable. this is the possibility we face but we still have to support them people! yes i’m talking to people like red kev who simply should bow out of claiming to be a wallaby supporter.
December 5th 2012 @ 8:17am
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:17am | Report comment
The Wallabies have to earn my support – they could start by playing decent rugby and not flying in a hack of a NZ coach.
December 5th 2012 @ 8:40pm
Sage said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:40pm | Report comment
The Wallabies don’t have to earn anything from me. I support them unconditionaly. For me, it isn’t a matter of choice.
I agree that R Deans time is very limited though. It’s expected but I don’t see the point in him having any great concerns about 2015. I very much doubt he’ll be there. Not in his current capacity anyway.
December 6th 2012 @ 8:39am
soapit` said | December 6th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
i support them but if they want my extra money and time and efforts (say encouraging others to watch) they need to provide more in return.
December 5th 2012 @ 9:29pm
Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
Yeah! His nationality! Hes from NZ! No good rugby coaches come from there. I mean its not as if they are the best rugby nation by a mile. What were they thinking when they tried to get the best coach instead of being a d1¢k and making an issue of his nationality?
Dude wtf is your problem?
December 5th 2012 @ 9:55pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:55pm | Report comment
well said sir!
December 5th 2012 @ 10:50pm
bill said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
nice one sage!!!! totally agree
December 6th 2012 @ 12:30am
Ra said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:30am | Report comment
Red dude, im sorry to inform you but the Wallabies know nothing about you and your little ranting in here. This is a closed forum set aside for the Has Beens, the Neva Eva Wilbes, the Wanabes and everyone else with an opinion, just to make sure that your iterations have the effect of wet toilet paper.
now, what is your coaching background again????
December 5th 2012 @ 8:45am
soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:45am | Report comment
still 3 years away, might be a bit early to start drumming up the support by naming and shaming those who dont meet your standards
December 5th 2012 @ 11:41am
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Incorrect Mark – Palu was used as a sub in the 72nd minute for Rocky Elsom. Our starting backrow was Elsom, McCalman and Samo. Deans subbed Rocky for Cliff and the Higgers for Samo in the 74th minute – See ESPN Rugby Stats for verification.
For the record – I will never stop supporting the Wallabies.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:47am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:47am | Report comment
i stand corrected Palu had not played much last year with injury and it must’ve been the next match that he got injured yet again and left the squad. When he left i remember thinking, there goes any chance we had.
i too will never stop supporting them.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:50am
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:50am | Report comment
I think he was injured against the USA or Russia.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:23pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
The Irish loss had little to do with injuries and much more to do with poor planning tactics and match day nous
December 5th 2012 @ 8:42am
soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:42am | Report comment
the draw is fairly irrelevant, if we’re poor enough to lose to england and wales we have no business pretending we’re anything like world champs
December 5th 2012 @ 9:10am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:10am | Report comment
well said
this is a possibility. we still gotta support our boys though!
December 5th 2012 @ 9:39am
formeropenside said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
but losing to Ireland at RWC 2011 was within Deans KPI’s.
December 5th 2012 @ 9:51am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:51am | Report comment
i disagree.
Ireland smashed us and we just had to cop it. Did deans go out there and lose the breakdown contest himself? no. did it result in us not having a chance to beat new zealand in the semi. no. were we ever going to beat new zealand at eden park in a rwc semi or final….. no.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:29am
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Spoken like a true Deans apologist. Our lack of a genuine open side flanker to combat Sean O’Brien I think had its role to play in our deserved defeat at the hands of a good Irish team. I don’t agree with your statement “Ireland smashed us and we just had to cop it.” – you know rugby actually is a contact competitive sport – you are allowed to give it back. However we did not – a hall mark of the Deans tenure is mental fragility.
Now Bryce Lawrence had a shocker on the whistle – proven he got three scrum penalties wrong – that is out of Robbie’s control but the poor squad selection was not – nor the ability to get his players up for the game or rally them at half time and just get on with it. Now Robbie was not only smarted in his squad selection he was outsmarted in his use of the bench in that game. Declan Kidney used 4 subs between the 49 & 61 minute mark. Robbie used 2 at the 62/3 minute mark then another 3 for the last 8 minutes. Another clear indicator the man has little capacity to use the bench effectively.
Were we ever going to beat New Zealand at Eden Park. Why not! France just about did it in the final and were very unlucky not to do so. I think our boys were exhausted after the game against South Africa which we would not have had to play if we had beaten Ireland.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:38am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:38am | Report comment
mate sean obrien was a blindside flanker. in fact ireland didn’t even take one open side to the RWC at all. the notion that we lost beacsue we didn’t havean openside is true beacsue poock was injured but nobody else would’ve made a difference on that day.
my point we got smashed and we had to just cop it is testament that in test rugby there are no guarantees. You win some you lose some. blaming the ref is ugly!
blaming the use of the bench is not smart. our b side had lost a few tests earlier to samoa for christ sake. bringing on sub standard players is not smart.
without Palu, Robinson and with an out of form Genia and Cooper… no we were never going to beat NZ at eden park… after all did we? France are a much better side than us also. evident by our trouncing last month.
as for our players were tired? i;m confused if we had’ve beaten ireland would we not have had to play in the QF’s. good to know for next world cup. (where do you get these from?)
December 5th 2012 @ 12:19pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Sean O’Brien –
Test debut v Fiji- replacement for Dennis Leamy as an open side.
v Sth Africa – subbed on for Stephen Ferris as a blind side.
v Italy – subbed on for David Wallace as an open side.
v Samoa – Open Side
v Italy – No 8
v France – Blind side
v Wales Blind side
v Scotland blind side
v England blind side
v France open side
v France blind side
v Australia open side
v Russia open side
v Italy open side
v Wales open side
v Wales open side
v Italy open side
v France open side
v England open side
v New Zealand x 3 – Open side
Tests as a blind side – 6
Tests as a No 8 – 1
Tests as a Open Side – 16
Mate our bench was not a bunch of B graders – Saia Faainga, James Slipper, Rob Simmons, Cliff Palu, Scott Higginbothm, Luke Burgess, Drew Mitchell – and your suggestion is not to use them? Well Robbie just about didn’t and we lost. If you think the bench is not a weapon in test rugb y Mark you’ve lost me seriously.
Each game has its own machinations Mark – my point is we do not know how we would have gone against NZ in a final as opposed playing them after an exhaustive QF against SA. Of course we would have played a QF however I will not agree with you saying New Zealand were always going to win the RWC.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:33pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Can also add David Wallace was selected for that tournament who is also an openside flanker but was injured against the poms – repalced by Shane Jennings who is also an openside flanker.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
To me Stephen Moore was a bigger loss then Pocock. TPN was underdone going in to the RWC and his set piece work was a joke in that game.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
mate sean obrien rose to fame by being awarded european player of the year as a BLINDSIDE FLANKER! he is a running forward not an open side at all. He plays for ireland with a no 7 jersey because they have Heaslip and Ferris so there is nor room for him as a 6 or an 8. doesn’t make him an open side as much as mccalman can’t claim to be an open side either.
Wallace was indeed kod and retired by Tuilagi in a warm up match before the rwc. i watched the match. Whether jennings replaced him or not i can’t recall but the fact remains they played without an opemside the entire world cup!
December 5th 2012 @ 12:44pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
MARK – HE HAS PLAYED THE MAJORITY OF HIS TEST CAREER AS AN OPEN SIDE FLANKER AND HAS NOT PLAYED FOR IRELAND AS A BLIND SIDE SINCE BEFORE THE RWC 2011.
DAVID WALLACE – OPEN SIDE
SHANE JENNINGS – OPEN SIDE
Comparing O’Brien to McCalman – nah – O’Brien has been their 1st choice open side over blokes like Shane Jennings. Granted he came up as a blind side but his test career is that of an open side. What open side isnt a ball runner – McCaw is, Hooper is, Pocock is – O’Brien is!
December 5th 2012 @ 1:03pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
btw i do think S Faingaa, Slipper, Higginbotham, Simmons and the unfit versions of Palu and Mitchell as a b grade bench. the only test standrad player amongst them was Burgess (Palu and mitchell only because they were coming back form injury and would’ve been too much of a risk)
December 5th 2012 @ 1:06pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
Wallace and O’Brien played test Rugby at 7 as Ireland had no depth or options there. Wallace played a lot of games later on in his career at 7 for Munster because they had no one else bar players like Niall Ronan and a couple of kids. Ideally they would have played him at 6 or 8 but the team needed a 7 and they had 6 and 8 covered (O’Mahony, Quinlan, Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, James Coughlan, Nick Williams, etc). Munster never signed a Kiwi or Aussie openside as they had Wallace and they had a more South Africa philosophy towards the position.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:10pm
Colin N said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
O’Brien is a blindside. The reason he often plays seven is because of Ferris – they want to play both.
The reason they dominated the Australian trio is because the Wallaby back-row was immensely average.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:41pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
When Australia beat the All Blacks in Brisbane to win the 3N – Fainga’a, Simmonds, Higginbotham all contributed to the win in Brisbane and the series overall. I don’t consider them B grade. Furthermore if Deans selected unfit players on the bench then it strengthens my argument not only is he a poor user of the bench he is a poor selector of a bench.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:52pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:52pm | Report comment
if you recall we were under an injury crisis and had to basically pick every available player in the match day 22 for starters for the match against Ireland. the fact that palu and mitchell both succumbed to injury in the next match or so proves that they were not quite right yet, but lets face it they are class and a gamble we had to take to the world cup, particularly Palu. in fact Palu’s selection was probbaly the reason hodgson missed out because frankly without plau (our only truly world class option at no 8) we’d not beat New zealand in new Zealand and Deans knew that. samo/higginboth/mccalman were simply minding his spot until he got match fit. He was that important to Deans plans and still is.
secondly we won that game in the tri nations without any real contribuition from Higginbotham. His performance against SA was so poor he’d been dropped and replaced by samo who made one great run, scored a great try (running through an injured man mind you) got tired became a passenger for the rest of his minutes on the field and got subbed off. in no way is simmons a world class lock and s faingaa is the least powerful front rower in world rugby no matter how much heart he has.
December 5th 2012 @ 3:44pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Markey Mark – I do recall that we were down to our last 22 becuase we had taken half fit players to the RWC – that in itself was a mistake paid for in Auckland. Agreed! I agree with you that Palu, when fir is out best option at 8. I think your being a touch harsh on old Radeke in that game in Brisbane. He actually played himself to a standstill. He actually made two tackle busts and ran for a total of 89 meters. I personally don’t care if the players were injured. Good thinking to run at one I reckon. He made 10 tackles and missed 1 (those numbers sound familiar) and obviously scored a wonderful try…at age 927. I agree with you that Higgers did little in that particular game- however he and the others did contribute to the 3N success. He was one of our better forwards in the 30-14 loss to NZ in Auckland but agree his game in Durban was not his best.
December 5th 2012 @ 5:48pm
soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 5:48pm | Report comment
yep when you decide to choose half fit players you cant deny responsibility when they arent available due to injury.
December 5th 2012 @ 6:18pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:18pm | Report comment
yes but you can replace them if they get injured again. then you haven’t lost out leaving a player like palu out of a squad when you know he is vastly superior to the alternatives. it was a punt worth making. (we didn’t win it without him)
December 5th 2012 @ 9:00pm
jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:00pm | Report comment
I know it has been said but at this stage it is worth repeating. The use of the bench against Ireland was pathetic. We were getting mugged in the forwards and had fresh legs on the bench that got given five minutes each.
Mark, I know you don’t like to use reserves but since we had McCalman and Elsom in the starting side it was certainly worth giving Palu and Higgers some meaningful minutes.
For the rest of it the decision to not carry a back up 7 in the overall squad was madness and given the injury to Robinson the decision to ignore Greg Holmes was another staggering move.
December 5th 2012 @ 9:29pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
a bit of advice JN if you want to be taken seriously never ever mention greg holmes’ ommission from the wallaby squad as some kind of contributing factor to our lack of success ever ever again
In terms of giving Palu and Higgers minutes in that match, Palu was not ready and i assume only in the squad to hopefully geta 5-10min cameo for the benefit of bringing him slowly back to match fitness and Higgers? well name one test match where he has proven himself a genuine test match backrower. Take italy a couple of weeks ago. i had to check the team sheet after i watched the match to see whether he actually played in that match. he did apparently.
We lost that match because moore and pocock were late injury withdrawals. it had nothing to do with using the bench. It is feasible that if Deans had have made mass changes against ireland we’d have simply lost by more. Again i think since the loss to samoa Deans has lost all faith in his second stringers. The loss to scotland this year would’ve only consolidated that.
as for not having a back up openside. neither did NZ. things turned out okay for them! ultimately the ireland lost did not see us have any less chance of winning the RWC. we still needed to beat NZ at Eden Park and we came up well short because, and here’s the clincher, THEY WERE AND ARE BETTER THAN US.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:12pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:12pm | Report comment
So deans took a guy who could only play 5-10mins… Brilliant coaching indeed
December 5th 2012 @ 10:35pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:35pm | Report comment
he selected the only 22 players available due to injury crisis from memory
December 5th 2012 @ 11:28pm
jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:28pm | Report comment
Holmes is good mark, since you can’t see that Deans has ever made a mistake then I guess it isn’t a mystery that you cannot see it.
December 6th 2012 @ 6:25am
Ben.S said | December 6th 2012 @ 6:25am | Report comment
Uncle, O’Brien is a blindside flanker. He played 7 solely to accomodate others and because he couldn’t be left out.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:44am
formeropenside said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Yeah, if the AB’s had come up against the Wallabies in the final -we had the perfect draw in 2011 – given the last result in Suncorp, you might well have seen the mother of all chokes. The AB’s tried so hard to lose to France, but the ref got them over the line.
All because Deans failed to pick a backup openside in the squad – Beau Robinson was in hot form, or even Hodgson would probably have worked.
But, as it turned out, from Deans point of view it didn’t matter: he got another 2 years, which may well be another 4.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:51am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:51am | Report comment
Beau Robinson is not a test match standard rugby player.
none of the major sides brought back up opensides including the all balcks. ireland din’t even bring one and played the whole tournament with two blindsides.
the reason is unless you have a truly world class openside there is no point them playing because they are ineffective and fail to influence anything. you may as well go in with a second blindiside.
take hodgson and beau robinson they got smashed by the samoans last year and i’m sure they were rubber stamped ‘never to play test rugby again’.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:21pm
Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
“The AB’s tried so hard to lose to France, but the ref got them over the line.”
Yeah, Joubert made a bunch of tackles in the last 20 minutes didn’t he?
December 5th 2012 @ 12:23pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
Jerry – it was outstanding defence by Joubert
December 5th 2012 @ 12:34pm
Jerry said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
I also liked the way he spooked that French kicker so that he missed the go ahead penalty with about 15 minutes to play.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:40pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Very cunning man that Joubert – come on mate would have he got out of Auckland alive otherwise
December 5th 2012 @ 1:04pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
Ireland named David Wallace but took Shane Jennings who are open sides.
Scotland too Ross Rennie & David Barclay
Italy – Maura Bergermasco and Paul Derbyshire
SA – Broussow and Louw
December 5th 2012 @ 1:18pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
when wallace was put into retirement i was under the impression they didn’t replace him with an open side. if jeenings did come to the world cup he certainly played no role becasue o’brien (a blindside flanker) played as their no 7 and still does.
scotland have Rennie yes but Barclay is a ‘flanker’ in the mould of the french who generally have their 7 and 6′s as non descript flankers like Dusatoir and Bonnaire who played left and right flanker not open and blind as we do. Barclay also plays a lot of no 8. He is not what we consider an openside.
who cares what italy does. south africa are the only ones that brought two open sides of the major nations!
December 5th 2012 @ 1:49pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
Hi Mark – Shane Jennings played against the USA in the RWC 2011 as an open side flanker. He came as a sub for Sean O’Brien as an open side flanker against Russia. So he was there. Well I would not fall into the trap of writing off Italy.
December 5th 2012 @ 2:01pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
haha
jenning s was so important for the irish he got a bit of game time against the USA and the russians. bringing out the big ones i see uncle!
December 5th 2012 @ 3:46pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
Mark,
I am bring out the big guns mate. Those were two of the greatest games of rugby ever played. Forget Baa Baa’s v All Blacks 73 of Wal’s v AB’s 2000 – these were for the ages
– Seriously it was just a response to your statement none of the major sides brought back up opensides including the all balcks. ireland din’t even bring one and played the whole tournament with two blindsides which is incorrect Markey Mark.
December 5th 2012 @ 9:03pm
jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:03pm | Report comment
NZ had Thomson who is at least a 6.5 – he has played plenty of openside. Very different from McCalman a 6/8/Lock. A balanced squad needed to be able to cover Pocock if he was to be out for one game.
December 5th 2012 @ 9:33pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:33pm | Report comment
JN you are kidding. Thomson is not an openside. You cant just make stuff up! again did the loss to ireland have any effect on us getting through to the semis? no we lost to NZ in the semis instead of the final is all.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:08pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:08pm | Report comment
Yeah I’m with mark, rather go out in the semis then be a chance in a one off final for the world cup. I dips me lid to you mark, foresight indeed…
December 5th 2012 @ 11:36pm
jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:36pm | Report comment
Thomson is a 6 who has played plenty of 7 at both the Highlanders and for the All Blacks – if you say that isn’t true then you are the one making stuff up. It is a far cry from an 8 who plays a bit of 6 and lock being the cover for your openside which is what Robbie went with.
I said it on the very first announcement of the Aussie squad for the RWC that carrying additional cover in 6/8 of Elsom, Higginbotham, Palu, Samo and McCalman was overkill. You should on pick two of those in your starting side and one on the bench to cover 6/8 and a reserve. The fourth player is squad cover and the fifth is overkill.
Beau Robinson or Matt Hodgson as the next best behind Pocock were the obvious selection choices instead of a 5th man to cover 6/8.
It was a selection blunder by Robbie and he has become so scarred by it that he tends to now put reserve cover for openside in his match day 22/23. This is overkill the other direction. Having Gill sitting on the bench unused through the northern tour was a mistake as he could have put in players able to substiture into 6, 8 and lock.
I think Deans deserves to see out the end of his contract but unless he fixes a bunch of the errors he is making then he is no shoe in for a renewal.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:46am
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:46am | Report comment
”Now Bryce Lawrence had a shocker on the whistle – proven he got three scrum penalties wrong –”
The scrum penalties where we had our heads shoved up our backsides in front of the posts? Lawrence wasn’t a factor at all we just played dumb inaccurate Rugby. Cooper butchered two overlaps 5 metres out by throwing stupid fancy passes in to touch rather then putting it through the hands. Then of course there was poor body height running in to contact which the Irish swallow up and gave them easy possession.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:57am
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:57am | Report comment
Lawrence blunders his way out of a RWC semi-final – By David Lord
To his credit, Lawrence has admitted to making multiple mistakes against the Wallabies in the shock 15-6 loss to Ireland, especially scrummaging, which accounted for six penalties at critical stages.
“And there were other mistakes as well,” Lawrence admitted to publicly, without being specific.
And from the Daily Telegraph – Many of the Kiwi referee’s decisions in the 15-6 win by Ireland at Eden Park – particularly at the scrum – appeared to baffle the Wallabies, and allowed Ireland to knock over decisive penalties or repel Australian pressure.But in a crucial twist, The Daily Telegraph understands Lawrence later made admissions he had got several calls wrong at the scrum – including one that led to an Ireland penalty goal – and conceded other decisions were also inaccurate.
Not one of better games agreed Bakkies – but I think BJ Lawrence played his part.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:28pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
Nonsense Lawrence played his part and using the Daily Telegraph to back up your argument is not helping. Some of the scrummaging from the Wallabies was a joke and to ping it on the ref is deflecting the blame. He pinged Ireland for bad scrummaging too.
There was of course the ridiculous last passes that weren’t heavily focussed on in the aftermath from AAC and Quade Cooper which conceded good opportunities, plus there was captain fantastic coming in from the side to give Ireland an easy 3 points. O’Connor missed two simple penalties which put us over a converted try behind Ireland.
O’Brien is not an openside the coach just picks him there as other positions are covered, he is a blindside or number 8. He has played most of his test Rugby there because of Stephen Ferris at 6 and Heaslip at 8. Wallace played some games at 7 so he could play blindside when Ferris was out.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
So Lawrence’s own admissions don’t count?
I agree Australia did not play well and I also said Ireland deserved their win, but Lawrence’s decisions surely affected the game Bakkies – weather it was the Daily Telegraph, The Roar or Penthouse – Lawrence admitted he made mistakes – I am only using the man’s own words – I didn’t put them in his mouth.
So essentially your saying Bryce Lawrence had no affect on the game?
December 5th 2012 @ 12:47pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
I would ignore Lawrence’s admissions as he wasn’t responsible for the Wallabies losing the game. It was probably one of his better performances at test level (his worst was the 1st Lions test in SA). He wasn’t a particularly confident referee either (a confident one doesn’t need to explain their decisions to the media).
As I said several times we butchered golden chances through stupid last passes (Cooper’s ridiculous no look pass which Bowe intercept cost us a chance at getting a bonus point as Ireland had to beat Italy heavily in their last match to get top spot if we took something away from that game), got turned over and driven backwards in to contact, lineout was a farce, O’Connor’s missed penalties, scrum fell apart. The commentator said we had been on the Ireland line for 5 minutes before Cooper threw that stupid behind the back pass that gave up key field position and we were down by 9 points. Stupid, stupid play. Why didn’t we go for the drop goal which would have nailed the bonus point, then go for the win with time left on the clock. Cooper should have been dropped after that performance
December 5th 2012 @ 12:55pm
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
Bakkies – for the last time – Bryce did not lose us the game – however his poor refering of the scrum and elsewhere- by his own admission = contributed. Ireland were the better team and deserved their win – never said it otherwise.
December 6th 2012 @ 1:17am
Parisien said | December 6th 2012 @ 1:17am | Report comment
great post uncle!
December 5th 2012 @ 12:27pm
soapit said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
mark i would agree that one game can be written off as an outlier but youd have to ignore how we played in the rest of the tournament.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:50pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
This article is useful to explain why we lost that game which effected the rest of our tournament.
http://www.lineoutcoach.com/2011/09/17/the-breakdown-analysis-ireland-v-australia/
December 5th 2012 @ 5:29pm
soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
not convinced that game affected how we played the rest of the tournament, just who we played against.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:08pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:08pm | Report comment
It effected our draw and path to the Final. It was absolute paramount to top that group so we had a QF against Wales, semi against France/England and let the Saffies knock the ABs over on home turf as they were the only team bar France do that in the World Cup cycle.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:14pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:14pm | Report comment
nonsense, any one of those games could’ve been a different result. there could’ve been any combination of QF”s, semi finalists etc etc
no one was going to beat the all balcks in a world cup in new zealand particularly because they have one of the best sides in the history of the game if not the best!
lets get over ourselves.
December 6th 2012 @ 12:07am
Bakkies said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:07am | Report comment
So Mark you are saying that we couldn’t have opened ourselves to a RWC possible Final against the Springboks by being on the other side of the draw. We hit a brick wall by being on the toughest side of the draw.
As for NZ not being beatable I debate that. They only won the Final by a point off a penalty (which looked like it missed by the way).
December 6th 2012 @ 8:30am
soapit` said | December 6th 2012 @ 8:30am | Report comment
you have to look how well we played in the knockout though and i’d say it would have been touch and go to win any of those games (just like the bok game was very touch and go)
i’m always of the opinion play well and the draw will look after itself – if your thinking you want to win the thing, lower nations may sweat the draw to try and get as deep as they can but they have different benchmarks.
i do think it would be harder to beat SA, NZ 2 in a row then wales, france but it didnt have a huge impact compared to our own poor play
December 6th 2012 @ 11:58am
Sage said | December 6th 2012 @ 11:58am | Report comment
“no one was going to beat the all balcks in a world cup in new zealand particularly because they have one of the best sides in the history of the game if not the best! ” – Just reading with interest until now but Mark your above statement is absolute tosh.
And – I’ll never forgive Robbie for ignoring Beau Robinson as an openside option at the WC. And I believe he wasn’t able to galvanise his troops or change his game plan at half time to adjust to the way the Irish had approached that game and the WB’s. Kidney outhought and outcoached him.
December 5th 2012 @ 9:48am
Blue Blood said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
I detest Deans talking about the importance of depth. His selections have done nothing to develop depth in Australian rugby. He only even changes out his favourites when forced to by injury. None but his favourites ever get a look in. Do you think Hooper would have got close to the pitch if Pocock wasn’t injured? Especially after the surprising loss in Newcastle at the start of the international season? The same thing happened to Hodgson and he spent the next 4 years lucky to get in the 22 and got 6 caps. He never had the opportunity like Hooper to get into the flow of international rugby. Even getting 3 man of the match performances when on his first Spring Tour in a team full of established Wallabies, Deans still couldn’t tell you Hodgo’s first name. The guy has squandered many worthy Wallabies.
Deans hasn’t a clue how to blood new talent unless it is forced upon him.
December 5th 2012 @ 9:55am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:55am | Report comment
deans used 40 or so players this year for the wallabies. if that doesn’t help us in terms of depth i’m not sure what would?
December 5th 2012 @ 11:45am
formeropenside said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:45am | Report comment
picking the right players in the first place? We only got Taps at 12 when McCabe was injured.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:54am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:54am | Report comment
um Deans gave taps his test debut 12 months ago despite he’d only just come back from injury. Taps then got injured again this year and yet Deans still picked him and took him on tour despite having little rugby under his belt.
Taps also made 3 major errors in defence against wales which could’ve coast us the game if not for others eg palu cleaning up the mess he made.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:47pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
Taps only got s run this time because dean’s love child got injured didn’t he?
December 5th 2012 @ 1:56pm
kingplaymaker said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
I believe Tapuai played last year so wasn’t just a reserve in Deans’ mind
December 5th 2012 @ 3:42pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
So why wasn’t he picked this year when he was ready to go?
December 5th 2012 @ 6:19pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:19pm | Report comment
is he an automatic pick? i don’t think so. he is an unproven talent and a liability in defence.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:13pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:13pm | Report comment
You bet he is and he isn’t…
December 5th 2012 @ 12:03pm
Hoy said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
I think Blue was saying he would have only played 22 if he could, but because of injury, he was FORCED to use those other players.
And depth being created through injury, not selection, might be beneficial if he actually nurtured those new players and made them better. Is anyone getting better playing for the Wallabies?
December 5th 2012 @ 1:13pm
Wilson said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Yeah read the comment by BB again Mark. Do you think that Deans would have used the players he has this year if his top picks werent injured? BB I agree with you 100%. Deans has sqandered the depth we do have in Australia the last 4 years. This year he has been forced to establish depth and there have been some good finds. There has also been some glaring holes in depth too.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:27pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
yes becasue our super xv sides are playing such great rugby (sacrastic of course) it is a sin that Deans can’t put together a decent squad of players?
when the reds lost by 70 point sin SA for instance did any of you call for mckenzie’s sacking?
December 5th 2012 @ 6:21pm
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
61-8 thank you very much.
Also you are referring to a where a 30-man super rugby squad was missing Cooper, Harris, Lucas, and Lane from the no.10 jersey and were playing Dallan Murphy there (and had Jono Lance injured during the match)? No, losing 5 pivots is a pretty decent excuse – it even excuses playing Genia at 10 for part of that match.
December 5th 2012 @ 8:06pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
61-8 isn’t something i’d be bringing up.
i see you believe that injuries are a good excuse for poor performance. I take it then that you feel Deans has done an excellent job considering all the injuries he’s had to many of his preferred 5/8′s plus all the others as well including genia, pocock etc
December 5th 2012 @ 8:37pm
Red Kev said | December 5th 2012 @ 8:37pm | Report comment
Nice of you to walk straight into that set up – no it is no excuse for Deans.
Deans’ first choice five-eighth is Barnes – first Bledisloe, best chance to win it in a decade owing to two matches in Australia with everyone except JOC available that is who he chose. The fact he has now moved Barnes to fullback is just further evidence of his ineptitude as a selector.
Deans’ second choice scrum-half has been Phipps for the past two years.
Furthermore Deans has not had 5 injuries in any one spot, and certainly none of the deep injury problems have been at such a pivotal spot.
December 5th 2012 @ 6:23pm
Wilson said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:23pm | Report comment
Mark your inability to answer a direct question is baffling.
You obviously have your own view but you want to comment on other’s views without actually addressing the points they make. Go rant as you will, but don’t make it in reply to other’s comments unless you are going to a) use basic reading comprehension and b) address what that person is actually saying.
December 5th 2012 @ 6:34pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
‘Deans has sqandered the depth we do have in Australia the last 4 years’ thats what i was responding to. i don’t answer silly questions like ‘do you think he would have used all those players this year if not for injury’ its frankly a silly pointless question.
over the past 4 years we have only ever had 15-20 decent test standard players. who are all these wonderful players that missed out on selection in wallaby squads? who brought through horwill, pocock, genia, cooper, beale, JOC, ioane, Robinson, alexander, etc etc etc?
December 5th 2012 @ 9:23pm
jeznez said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:23pm | Report comment
Mark,
You are looking over the four years? That includes persisting with Brown, Mumm and Baxter for horrendously long periods.
In this season alone Deans has ignored Greg Holmes, Dan Palmer, Nic White and required injury before he’d play Nathan Sharpe, Nick Cummins and Ben Tapuai. (I agreed with him on Sharpe but have to eat humble pie on that one)
During this NH tour he ignored Samo for Dennis in the last two games and failed to pick Neville as SR cover in the Italy game.
In the world cup squad McCalman was 6/8 cover when he already had Elsom, Higginbotham, Samo and Palu which was overkill.
Hodgson who can also cover 6/8 but most importantly could cover the sole openside in Pocock was the correct selection.
December 5th 2012 @ 9:44pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:44pm | Report comment
g’day again JN.
who were the obvious better players to mumm, brown and baxter at the time. From memory mumm didn’t play much and toured because we were simply short on no’s to cover lock and no 6. brown again simply who were the other no 8 candidates at the time and baxter again who were the amazing tight heads running around dominating super 14 at the time?
he has ignored greg holmes because he is an average player, plamer has not developed an all round game and had a good chance to impress against scotland where we lost a test due to failure at scrum time which is meant to be his bag and nic white is hardly genia or burgess and i believe he’s been injured anyways.
sharpe is the captain JN, cummins got achance and took it good on him (with a full complimet of wingers he is not going to play much test rugby… be realsitic) and taps was given his test debut by Deans on last years spring tour and went straight back into the wallaby set up, despite that he has missed the bulk of the alst 2 seasons of super rugby. he has a bad reputation as a defensive liability and that was proven to be a flaw against wales. watch this space.
again you keep harping on the mediocre hodgson and really the loss to ireland did not cost us anything but an alternate rout to the final not there is any convincing evidence that hodgson would’ve made any difference whatsoever. Hodgson was left out for the greater good ie plau had to be in the squad as our only world class no 8.
samo for dennis. what has samo done in the past 12 months????
keep it real man!
December 5th 2012 @ 10:16pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:16pm | Report comment
If wrong ignore the facts and make up the rest…
December 6th 2012 @ 12:07am
jeznez said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:07am | Report comment
who were the obvious players? Alexander and Kepu were ready to replace Baxter long before Alexander got subbed in, by the end Dunning was a superior tighthead to Baxter as well.
For Mumm and Brown, they weren’t working so we needed to look at anyone else and give them a shot Mowen, Chapman, Chisolm, Caldwell, Hand, Houston, Horwill, Higginbotham, McMeniman….there were plenty of options that meant once these guys were seen to fail repeatedly that the net had to be thrown wider, earlier.
I find it odd that you seem so happy to write Hodgson off given few opportunities and even support McCalman being used out of position to fill a spot. Yet at the same time you support Deans in not trialling widely for players to replace the likes of these three above.
December 6th 2012 @ 12:14am
jeznez said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:14am | Report comment
ps with Cummins – why was Cooper Vuna picked in front of him? Why did Dom Shipperly play with a broken hand before Deans would consider him? I’m not saying the guy should be there if the entire backline is fit but he was bizarrely overlooked when there were clear opportunities to pick him.
Taps did’t come straight back in, he sat in camp waiting until McCabe got injured – very different situation, he wasn’t included in a matchday squad until Deans was forced to start him. If he had been in the planning as many people were calling for him to be then he could of played on the bench as McCabe could always move to one of the outside back positions that he actually naturally and historically is.
December 6th 2012 @ 12:53am
kingplaymaker said | December 6th 2012 @ 12:53am | Report comment
jeznez, firstly Vuna has far more talent that Shipperely or Cummins which is why he was chosen first.
Of course he still has far less talent than Israel Folau as will soon be clear.
Regarding Tapuai, throwing a recently injured player with little test experience into ferocious RC games is not a recipe for success. Deans clearly planned to use him at an easier point, and did play him the year before. Nor for what it’s worth is Tapuai the miracle-worker one might think from reading Reds’ supporters accounts of him.
At some stage Genia, Cooper, Ioane, Sautia, Folau, JOC, Beale and maybe Tomane will fight out the backline positions, and the Tapuais and others will no longer be seen.
December 6th 2012 @ 2:43am
jeznez said | December 6th 2012 @ 2:43am | Report comment
KP, not much point us covering old ground but I like believe that Vuna should have been nowhere near a test jumper this season. His athletic attributes are good and he is great with ball in hand but every other facet of his game is flawed.
Until he fixes his defensive frailty, starts to work off the ball and develops an ability to read a game then he should not be in gold. Kicking would be nice as well but I could forgive him that flaw if he fixed the rest of his play.
I know you feel differently.
December 5th 2012 @ 7:04pm
Blue Blood said | December 5th 2012 @ 7:04pm | Report comment
Yep you clean missed my point Mark. Others got it so I’ll leave it at that
December 5th 2012 @ 9:07pm
Hightackle said | December 5th 2012 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
Yeah Deans was forced to select Hooper…well kind of. I mean he was selected WHEN POCOK WAS STILL FIT but whatever. He was forced to select Timani against Samoa last year…actually no he wasnt. Well he was forced to somebody. Im sure you had a point but nothing to back it up.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:08am
Uncle Argyle said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:08am | Report comment
I don’t think Robbie will even be coaching the Wallabies at the 2015 RWC if he continues on with the style of rugby the Wallabies are currently playing. Saying that your squad will need depth to win a RWC is fairly obvious Robbie – any rugby fan could tell you that. Yet where was our depth for the open side flanker position for the 2011 RWC? What Robbie Deans determines as depth isn’t as cut and dried as most others would think.
We really need to start looking at this squad for RWC 2015. I am not sure if the likes of Stephen Moore or even TPN will be around in 2015. James Hanson and Saia Fainga’a and ?. Who will back up Will Genia? Who will be our 10? We cant even settle on that or a full back and AAC will most likely be past it by 2015. Do you think we might need to start blooding a genuine 13? How about a number 8?
Whilst I think we will be competetive against the Lions in 2015 I confident to say a few blokes running aroudn this year will be spectators come 2015; Barnes, Moore, TPN, Palu. Samo, AAC to name a few.
I agree with Blue Blood – and further Robbie is a poor selector.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:14am
Gary Russell-Sharam said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Blue Blood you are absolutely correct. The media goes on about how many new players Deans has brought into the side, well that’s actually not factual, Deans hasn’t voluntarily bought many new players at all into the side, most of the time he has been forced to do this via injuries to players.
He suffers from a problem that I’ve seen at teenage level when dad is the coach and loves to play favourites and his son.
My expectation is that when a coach gets to international level he leaves the favourites stuff behind and selects a team of players to get the job done and he selects on form not reputation. Sadly Deans has not moved on from the teenage level IMO, in the selection process.
I fervently hope that the ARU see the light and change the coach prior to the Lions tour. I’m now at the point of saying I don’t care who coaches the team just as long as it’s not Deans. As a long time Wallaby supporter 40+ years I am not a happy chappy.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:28am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:28am | Report comment
sorry pal but the second stringers had their chances in the past couple of years losing to samoa and to scotland… and to club sides on the 2009, 2010 spring tours.
the starting xv is ultimately the best we have. deal with it. don’t blame the coach. that’s far too simplistic.
if you’ve been a wallaby supporter for 40 years you’ll know that we have rarely been the best side running around and so you should be used to being new zealand’s understudy.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:28pm
Wilson said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Mark have you been on Spring Tour and watched the mid week games by any chance? I have been on 2 and I can tell you that whether the mid week Wallaby teams have won or lost on the weekends is neither here nor there when it comes to selections. Deans would give lip service in the media that players could play themselves into the Match day 22 for the internationals based on their mid week performances. Matt Hodgson got 3 man of the match performances in mid week games during his first Spring Tour (2009) and still couldn’t get a cap that year. And this when the mid week games were still packed with many establish Wallabies. Depth has been there and Matt Hodgson is not the only talent that has been left in the cold by Deans.
I want the Wallabies to be picked on current form. I don’t want people strolling into the wallabies based on form from 12 months ago. I don’t want underperforming Super rugby players getting picked for the Wallabies based on old Wallabies form. I don’t want people kicking off crutches and casts and getting match fitness in the Gold jersey. We have worthy performers who are dominating in their positions in Super rugby against the best SA and NZ players week in week out. They have proven their worth and deserve to be given opportunity in the Gold jersey. And not just one opportunity. As anyone can have a bad game or take a moment to adjust to Test rugby. But given the same opportunities we would have far more depth in Australian rugby.
Even if Deans would have used his bench the last 4 years we would have more depth and experience in our second and third choice options. So often his faithful favourites are struggling to play 60minutes but still Deans neglected his bench. He flogged players like Pocock to the extent that his career will surely be shortened by the bashing his body has taken. And this when we have had depth sitting on the bench for 4 years. Deans talks of a need for Super clubs to manage the work load of Wallabies. I suggest he should practice what he preaches.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:34pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
hodgson proved unable to be influential at test level. His performance against samoa or lack thereof was the end of his test match career and rightly so. If our b teams are losing to club sides that shows just how poor our depth is and the reason why we should pick our best 15 and be tempted not to call on our reserves at all.
WE HAVE NO DEPTH you only have to watch any round of super xv rugby to see this to be the case.
December 5th 2012 @ 6:37pm
Wilson said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
So in Hodgson’s first start in an international he didn’t play the house down that negates all the positive he had done up until that time? In a game where he was not supported at the break down by the likes of established Wallaby Higgers, you think that that should have resulted in the end of his international career? Is that right? On a day when established Wallabies were all over the park and none played well you single out Hodgson? Should all of the squad from that day have been dropped, because I was at that game at Home Bush and they all played poorly.
When previous to that he came off the bench 5 times and his stats in his few minutes often rivalled the tackles, breakdowns and pilfers of Rocky and Higgers who had been on all game. This when he has often equalled if not outplayed king Pocock in the last 4 years and has beaten him at the Force awards night 3 out of the last 4 years with a fist full more individual awards? I don’t give your judgement much weight based purely on the Samoan game.
December 5th 2012 @ 7:05pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 7:05pm | Report comment
it wasn’t that he didn’t play the house down it was that he was completely over powered by the samoans and looked actually frightened. Rod Davies was another and if i recall Beau robinson looked out of his depth. All these players plus Giteau and Gerrard were stamped ‘never again’ methinks after what was a humbling experience for Deans and one that i think cemented his thought that he can’t rely on too many of his benchies because they simply don’t have what it takes at test level. It was samoa after all. I’d say our mid-week loss to scotland in newcastle with many second stringers this year further cemented this thought process although they were horrible conditions and stupid scheduling by the aru.
i didn’t single out hodgson btw you brought him up. as for force awards etc all i’ll say is if he were a better player than pocock… he’d be a better player than pocock and he just isn’t. No discussion! Now we’ve seen the emergence of Hooper and Gill i doubt he’ll ever be near the wallaby set up again. at 30 odd years of age he’d have cracked it by now if he was ever going to.
December 6th 2012 @ 6:14am
Justin2 said | December 6th 2012 @ 6:14am | Report comment
Mark – don’t talk about Gill, what did go on tour for again? What a wasted opportunity this was…
December 6th 2012 @ 5:56pm
soapit said | December 6th 2012 @ 5:56pm | Report comment
not a particularly good strategy stamping anyone ‘never again’ on the basis of one team performance.
funny how he makes up his mind so quickly for some people but others have to get themselves injured before they get dropped.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:28pm
soapit said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
at least you got plenty of game time when your dad was the coach gary
December 5th 2012 @ 10:01pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:01pm | Report comment
i’m so proud of my research i have to post it here again
did some research….
Deans from the period he took over the reigns has given 46 players there debuts for the wallabies in those 5 years. This compares with the previous 5 years which was just 39. Deans 46 debutants thus far included 33 debuatnts in the four year world cup period from 08 to the RWC which was the exact same number in the four year period prior to his which also had 33 players given their test debuts. Keeping with the theme between world cups in the four year period before that it was 30 debutants.
What is interesting about the pattern is that deans gives most debuts every 2 years. When he took over in 08 he gave 12 players a debut. in 09 he consolidated and only gave out 4 debuts. in 2010 he gave 12 players their debut and in 2011 he again consolidated and gave just 5. This year in 2012 he has given 13 players a debut which is the highest amount since 2005 and i imagine he will probably keep the theme and not give out too many debuts next year.
so this notion that he doesn’t bring players through isn’t accurate
December 5th 2012 @ 10:27am
Gary Russell-Sharam said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Mark when the team gets beaten by another team and you have a coach that is paid a million dollars a year to coach them and get the best from them, there is a certain amount of responsibility that he has to shoulder when the team doesn’t do that well.
You can’t just say that Deans didn’t go to very well at the breakdown etc etc that the players are at fault. The players rightly have to assume some responsibility for loosing the game and so to has the coach of the team. The buck stops with the coach and if the team doesn’t perform you change the coach. it’s that simple.
I have never seen the team get the sack because they don’t win. The coach is changed so that the team can be better with a new coach and maybe a better selection of players to be in the team.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:40am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
the team si the team. you are clutching and fanciful ideas if you think we can simply choose other players. what other players? our super xv sides struggle to beat the new zealand and the south african sides. why would we expect Deans to magically turn mediocre super rugby players into the best side in the world without our best player this year through injury?
perhaps a new coach is in order beacuse deans has had 5 years but no other man on the planet would’ve got more out of the current crop of wallabies.
when Deans go the new coach whoever that is will not do any better.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:35pm
soapit said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
yep the coach is paid twice as much as any of the players (quite possibly not accurate) but seems to not have any responsibility for performance.
pretty sweet deal.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:43am
Mad Max said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Blue Blood spot on. Deans has stuck solid with his favourites and IMHO has not got the results.The majority like Dennis etc have been in Spring tour squads and WC training squad for 4/5 years. I attribute Hoopers improvement to Jake White at the Brumbies and you are correct if Pocock was not injured he would not have got a game. The only player that Deans has brought through is Timani and to me the jury is still out on him.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:54am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Hooper is a decent player but he is not pocock’s toe nail. He played well against england but against Italy he dropped off too many tackles (i counted 6) and he went missing when we were under the pump.
Deans has also brought through Tapuai, Cummins, Douglas, Harris this year who have all had their successes and failures and lets not forget who brought through the likes of Genia, Cooper, Beale, Ioane, Robinson, Horwill and the main man Pocock all of which have at times been touted as world xv candidates.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:07am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:07am | Report comment
and he selected a 17 yo JOC to go on tour with the wallabies a few years back. i don’t recall any other coavh doing anything of the sort. Here is another example of a young player being developed. JOC will be the player of the 2015 RWC IMHO provided his ego doesn’t get in the way.
December 5th 2012 @ 11:47am
formeropenside said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:47am | Report comment
thats a big if
December 5th 2012 @ 11:55am
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 11:55am | Report comment
agreed but i hope!
December 5th 2012 @ 12:34pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
And debuted him out of position away against the All Blacks. Brilliant!
The guy has an incredibly talented bunch and had not got the best out of them. They are playing below their potential.
Compare the innovation and tactics under McQueen to the rubbish we are seeing now…it’s a no contest.
December 5th 2012 @ 12:58pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
McQueen’s only innovation was to improve wallaby defence which we based our entire game plan on including the idea that teams with fewer amount of possession in the opposition half were statistically more likely to win. Hence the tactic was to give away possession in the opposition half and then hope for a penalty allowing Burke to slot 3 points.
we won a rwc on this tactic and burke stepped up kicking us to victory in the semi and final kicking 15 penalties in total. thats 45 points from penalties and 14 points from tries and conversions.
that’s what wins world cups!
December 5th 2012 @ 1:45pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
Very simplistic and somewhat disingenuous however at least McQueen was smart enough to come up with a tactic that succeeded and knew what his players were capable of. We also had the best set plays you could imagine and he welcomed that input from the players in terms of designing those plays.
December 5th 2012 @ 2:10pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
since when is using facts and evidence disingenuous? i fear you actually don’t know what that word means.
you asked to compare the tactics Deans uses with macqueen. Well Macqueen was in fact the father of modern defensive rugby! the first to hire a rugby league expert in defence and if you read eales biography the first wallaby coach he played under to actually organise defencive tactics as a focus and a means to win test rugby matches.
now todays defenses are all as good as ours the set plays rarely result in tries/breaks. if you look at te IRB findings that they release you would know that most tries come from turnovers or if not then the 2nd or 3rd phase, no longer from set plays.
December 5th 2012 @ 3:48pm
Justin2 said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
You merely highlighted defence when the attack was very methodical.
You haven’t mentioned deans tactics – a little hard to when there aren’t any to speak of
what have his hallmarks been outside of turning this team into an all rounders team?
And if you know the game you can move defences where you need to in first phase to setup strikes in 2nd or 3rd phase. To use almost no set plays is ridiculous and shows a lak of creativity, thought and planning.
December 5th 2012 @ 3:57pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
aha now we’re getting somewhere.
deans has changed the structure of our backline quite well. We play our no 9, 10 and 15 as our defensive back 3 and or blindisde winger giving us our best options to kick return or to create counter attack. this si wheer we need to attack in modern rugby i will say i want to see barnes be replaced JOC so that we do in fact counter attack more often but i do think this structure gives us much better options from the back.
the play whats in front of you tactic will work better when Genia and JOC are back in the team
December 5th 2012 @ 10:12pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:12pm | Report comment
”now todays defenses are all as good as ours the set plays rarely result in tries/breaks. if you look at te IRB findings that they release you would know that most tries come from turnovers or if not then the 2nd or 3rd phase, no longer from set plays.”
Yet the All Blacks still score tries off set plays for fun and use decoys. Coaches like Woodward and Deans at Super Rugby level (as the Brumbies were using them) spooked us out of using decoy runners by whinging to referees. They didn’t know how to counter them. Why we stopped using them I would never know as our set play running has been right since.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:21pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
not many but i never said none come from set plays just not as many as in yester year and not as many in comparison to the before mentioned.
The all blacks like everyone else get MOST of their breaks and tries mostly from turn over ball and or the 2nd and 3rd phase. they are the best at it hence they are the best attacking side there is.
all the coaches around the world know these stats and base game plans on the data. it is 2012 not 1992.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:36pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:36pm | Report comment
Correction hasn’t been right since
December 5th 2012 @ 2:51pm
Jutsie said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
JOC hasnt realised his potential either at super level or test due to being stuffed around moved from one position to another. If anything he has played his best/most consistent rugby in at test level when playing on the wing in 2010/2011 yet most fans believe wing is not his right position. Personally I think he is a much better winger than 10 or 12 but wouldnt mind seeing him at FB either as he is much better under the high ball than KB who I reckon should switch to wing (I have to confess was a fan of beale at 10 after his season at the rebels but there is no denying he is not suited to the role at test level as he seems to crab sideways before throwing long passes or runs into traffic too often).
December 5th 2012 @ 1:18pm
Hoy said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Matt Giteau was selected by Jones without a Super Game to his name. Dwyer picked Kearns from second grade. There are just two off the top of my head doing something of the sort.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:26pm
kingplaymaker said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Hoy between 18 and the 30s there are players with outstanding talent who can play international rugby. To maximise use of the talent available, you need to get it from all ages in the range, however young or inexperienced.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:29pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
were they 17?
December 5th 2012 @ 2:48pm
Hoy said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Giteau was 20 and Kearns was 22 I think. Besides, JOC is only the second youngest Wallaby, so someone has done it before. And if you are really cynical, you could say he took JOC and blooded him so SA or NZ couldn’t select him. That is if you are really cynical.
Either way, Deans isn’t really breaking new ground. Western Force wanted to play Pocock when he was 17, but they weren’t allowed, as he was deemed too young from memory.
December 5th 2012 @ 3:09pm
Jutsie said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
Theres an argument to say its probably a bad move in the long run to blood these blokes at such a young age. Their bodies (and brains in coopers case) havent fully developed yet and arent ready for the rigours of international rugby. There is a danger they will burn out sooner rather than later. Its the same thing that is happening with guys like cummins and pattison in the cricket.
NZ and have the luxury of player depth and dont generally introduce prodigious talents at such an early age to test rugby.
December 5th 2012 @ 3:18pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
very correct jutsie. when i was in the uk i would tune in to the sky rugby club on thursday nights and one thing they were envious of was our need to blood our young talent due to our lack of depth.
often we have no choice but to expose our young talent to test rugby. the short term risk is that they get hammered but the advantage is we get young players with test match experience ahead of other nations.
December 5th 2012 @ 5:39pm
soapit` said | December 5th 2012 @ 5:39pm | Report comment
just for some accuracy oconnor was 18 not 17
December 5th 2012 @ 6:22pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 6:22pm | Report comment
well he made his super rugby debut that year aged 17. must’ve turned 18 by the spring tour then i guess.
December 5th 2012 @ 10:14pm
Bakkies said | December 5th 2012 @ 10:14pm | Report comment
I say O’Connor was capped early because he was eligible for NZ, SA and was off contract at the time so he could have moved abroad and played test Rugby for another nation.
December 6th 2012 @ 8:57am
soapit` said | December 6th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
i wouldnt be surprised if oconnors team forced the issue a little as well, asking the question where he sits in the wallaby pecking order as he’s had interest from other countries.
then answered by selecting him to go on tour. all conjecture but not too far fetched i’d say.
December 5th 2012 @ 1:31pm
Wilson said | December 5th 2012 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
Mark do you think that Deans would have ever chosen Tapuai, Cummins or Douglas if there had not been injuries that forced that he look outside his favourites?
December 5th 2012 @ 2:21pm
mark said | December 5th 2012 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
Tapuai; yes (he selected him for last years spring tour and gave him a test debut even though he’d spent half the season injured).
Douglas; probably at some stage but his form this year for the tahs was patchy at best and didn’t warrant selection anyways. Good to see him do well!
Cummins; no but again sometimes you find gems when you were not looking. (i’m being generous with a full compliment of wingesr cummins will inevitably be on the test match scrap heap. Not when we have Ioane, Mitchell, Tomane, Kuridrani, AAC and even Vuna who offer us more than just hard running. throw the potential of F-Sautia and maybe Folau we are looking at a possible one tour wonder in cummins i’d say)