Nine quick takes from AFL Round 13

Josh Elliott Editor

By Josh Elliott, Josh Elliott is a Roar Editor

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    The footy has finished up for the week, which means it’s time for some quick takes! Here are my first thoughts coming out of Round 13.

    Johanissen next in the gun for Bevo’s big calls
    Luke Beveridge hasn’t hesitated this year when it comes to dropping underperforming stars, and if he stays true to form a Norm Smith medalist may be next.

    Johanissen is definitely known for pulling off some magic but his disappearing act last well was not as well received as previous performances, and he wasn’t much better battling Melbourne.

    His problem is symptomatic of the Dogs in general – they are being hunted and targetted by every team and that is very hard to work through, especially for what is still a relatively young team.

    I’m all for Beveridge making big calls at the table, more teams should have that courage, but it must be worrying that it is not getting results.

    They now finish this round outside the top eight, on a 6-6 record with so-so percentage – and given some of the close wins they have had, they are lucky to be there.

    An improved second half of the year will be essential to earning a finals finish, but it is hard to say what the path to that is.

    As for Johannisen himself, that $800,000 payday he’s asking for might be hard to come by if he doesn’t lift his game – or worse, gets stuck in the VFL.

    In 2017, momentum is massive
    The more this season goes on, the more I am expecting that the premiership will not be decided by who is a better team across the year, but who can build better momentum heading into September.

    We saw a great example of the ebbs and flows of momentum on Saturday night when West Coast broke a three-game losing streak to end Geelong’s three-game winning streak.

    I had tipped the Cats for the game but there was a voice in the back of my head saying the Eagles at home, after spending their bye week firing themselves up, could push the Cats – I wish I had listened to it!

    It doesn’t seem like any team in the league is capable of playing their best footy in a sustained patch. Most sides’ best performances have come immediately after poor losses.

    For that reason, it shouldn’t have surprised to see the Cats grow complacent after three home wins and a bye.

    Generally speaking for a top four club to win the flag, they must beat all three other top four teams across a qualifying final, preliminary final and the grand final.

    Obviously, it doesn’t always go that way, but that’s generally what the test is, and it doesn’t look like something I’d be confident any club in the league could do right now.

    Especially when you consider that Richmond and Melbourne are the only clubs with any kind of top four shot at the moment that would have a chance at playing every game at their home ground.

    Last year the premiership was ultimately won by the one team who really turned it on in September, played genuine finals footy in all four games, and showed that they wanted it more than any other club.

    Something similar has to happen this year and that means it could come from anywhere, and week-to-week analysis of who is leading the race is going to be largely guesswork.

    I guess what I’m saying is, don’t take anything I say about who should or shouldn’t win the flag at this stage to be too definitive. It’s wide open and anyone with a club in the finals mix should dare to dream.

    West Coast Eagles AFL 2017

    (AAP Image/Tony McDonough)

    Bryce Gibbs’ big game
    On Saturday night Bryce Gibbs became the sole member of the club of players to have ever recorded 40 disposals, ten tackles and two goals in the same game – a remarkable all-around performance.

    It came at just the right time, too, with his best work done in a huge final term effort that saw Carlton hold off a bright charge from the Suns.

    I have talked a few weeks ago about how impressive Gibbs’ form has been this season, especially given how easy it would’ve been for him to phone it in after the disappointment of not getting the trade he requested last year.

    This was a whole other level though – it was the kind of game that will catch the eye of All-Australian selectors for one. I’m putting out my mid-season team on Tuesday, and while Gibbs isn’t in it, an eye-catching match like Saturday’s brings him much closer.

    It will also have caught the eye of the Adelaide Crows, and though I don’t want to harp on about it overmuch, it once again makes it fascinating to consider what might happen at the end of the year here.

    Bryce Gibbs Carlton Blues AFL 2016

    (AAP Image/Julian Smith)

    Surely the bye rounds could be better
    I’m not someone who likes to spend a lot of time being a fixture-fiddler and engaging in that kind of talk, but every year when the bye rounds come along I have to wonder why they need to be stretched out over three weeks of footy.

    This year it was even stranger due to Port Adelaide and Gold Coast’s China journey, seeing four rounds of the year affected by the byes.

    I get that the vast majority of why things happen the way they do is so that the AFL can have a TV product consistently available and doesn’t give up too much time for other codes to grab people’s attention in.

    However, we have a whole week off before finals that does just that, and the end effect of it is that it all feels really unbalanced.

    The ideal way to do it, I think, is to either go back to a genuine split round across two weeks, or just have one where no team plays at all, and everyone gets a little break.

    It would also make more sense to me to have two byes during the season rather than just one during the season and one before finals – maybe place them to be after the eighth and sixteenth games, so that teams are still relatively fresh coming into September.

    Having already talked about momentum, I think it’s going to be fascinating this year to see if the teams that win qualifying finals – and thereby must have two byes in the space of three weeks leading into a prelim – are affected. Both lost last year.

    At the very least, surely the fixture should be co-ordinated so that teams coming off the bye-play other teams coming off the bye, and vice-versa.

    Perhaps it is a bit of over-tinkering to think along these lines, and I doubt we’ll ever see much change so long as it remains more profitable to stick to the status quo. At any rate, at least we’re done with them for another year.

    AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan

    (AAP Image/Joe Castro)

    Eye-catching Shai a highlight for Tigers fans
    The Richmond faithful wouldn’t have come out of Saturday’s game against Sydney in too positive a mindset, and fair enough given what a lacklustre second half it was for them, ultimately ending in a nine-point loss.

    However, if you’re looking for a pick-me-up as a Tigers fan, the form of Shai Bolton, particularly in the first quarter where he kicked a pair of goals, was something to get really excited about.

    He was a bit of a difficult player to place in last year’s draft – the classic example of someone who had plenty in his bag of tricks, but was yet to develop any real consistency and therefore was difficult to be confident picking.

    However, while the goals he kicked were great, it is the work rate and defensive pressure he has shown in his first few games that have arguably been more impressive than anything else.

    Tigers fans should be very excited about the combination that he and Daniel Rioli will make over the next decade.

    Brisbane finally getting the new-coach bounce
    It’s a pretty common phenomenon in the AFL that the arrival of a new senior coach results in a temporary bounce in form – the real challenge for a club usually winds up being how long they can maintain it for, and whether or not the coach can find new ways to improve the club when the value of his initial arrival wears off.

    Before this past fortnight, I had worries that for Brisbane the new-coach bounce was only going to have lasted a single week, but instead, it seems to be a bit of a delayed reaction.

    Granted, a 40-point loss to Port Adelaide on Saturday night is not a result to brag about too much, but the Brisbane of four or five weeks ago would surely have lost by twice as much, if not more.

    What has to be really heartening for Lions fans too is that their best performers were some of the lesser lights of the side, and established guns like Tom Rockliff and Dayne Beams had fairly quiet ones.

    The fact that they stayed within striking distance of Port for such a large portion of the game, that being the case, is definitely something smile about.

    With Scache re-signing, a win last week, and then a competitive performance this one, it does seem that the changes made last off-season are starting to deliver some results. The Fagan future looks promising.

    chris-fagan-brisbane-lions-afl-2016

    (AAP Image/Dave Hunt)

    Lance vs Rance provides plenty of fireworks
    It was billed some distance out as a one-on-one battle not to be missed, and the match-up between this decade’s best key forward and best key defender had it all.

    Rance came out the clear winner in this one in the end – he got Buddy angry, and angry Buddy didn’t have the same kind of impact that cool-headed Buddy might have.

    I’m all for players throwing their weight around a bit, within in the rules, but for Franklin to shove Rance over after a marking contest only to miss a regulation set shot just looked a bit dumb.

    The other big physical altercation between the two saw Rance take a pretty average looking dive, not the kind of thing I’d give a thumbs-up to but it showed how well Rance was getting under Franlin’s skin.

    At the end of the day Buddy only kicked a single goal and Rance was probably Richmond’s best – but, it was a Swans victory regardless.

    Optimism is great, but honesty is better
    I’m not sure Brad Scott could have found a much faster way to have everyone look at him as a laughing stock than to come out of an uninspiring match of footy that left North Melbourne as a 4-8 side and still be talking about finals.

    You don’t get to be an AFL coach for a decent period of time without slowly developing a portion of the fanbase that gets a bit sick of you, and while I’m not part of that group of North fans, I can understand their grievances when this kind of talk happens.

    The bar for the Roos to make finals at the moment would require winning at least eight of our remaining ten games and that would be nothing short of a minor miracle right now, something that Brad is smart enough to know, and so are most of our fans – so selling us that message just makes you look like you’ve got your head in the sand.

    I think it is time not just for a change of message but for action to reflect that message, and that means giving some of the younger players a run in the side.

    I’m all for making the kids earn their games if the team is doing well, but if it isn’t, then it makes little sense to be playing underperforming senior types when we could be giving younger players some valuable top-level experience.

    Fingers crossed it doesn’t take much longer for Scott to make that switch because if it does, questions about whether or not he’s the right coach to rebuild the Roos will grow more and more reasonable.

    North Melbourne coach Brad Scott

    (AAP Image/David Crosling)

    Sam Reid shows the Tigers what they need
    How do you explain a loss like the Tigers had on Saturday? Many will say it is classic Richmond – and maybe it is – but I can’t help but feel like they’ve been a more confident team at times this year and given their position at halftime was quite surprised to see them lose.

    Even in the second half they weren’t too well beaten in the midfield, but they just seemed to miss opportunity after opportunity, and coming out of the game I was surprised that their final scoreline of 10.11.71 wasn’t more lopsided in favour of the behinds column.

    It was really a day that Toby Nankervis would like to have over again – coming up against his old side was the perfect stage to give them a bit of stick for not giving him much opportunity, but he had two bad misses on what should have been very gettable goals.

    He wasn’t the only one who missed gettable goals on the day though and if the Tigers had done a better job of turning their midfield work into points on the board they would still have won comfortably – Sydney’s tenacity was impressive but ultimately they were a little lucky, and wouldn’t want to let a first-quarter like that slide by without serious examination.

    The answer overall is that the Tigers’ forward line needs a bit of a shake-up. The speed and pressure they have is good, but players like Dan Butler and Sam Lloyd didn’t contribute enough, and the likes of Daniel Rioli and Jason Castagna only scraped by.

    What is most essential though has got to be a second dangerous key forward who can work with Jack Riewoldt. At the opposite end of the ground, we saw Sam Reid play a valuable back-up role to Lance Franklin, kicking two crucial goals.

    The Tigers do need another tall contributor up forward and it may be Reid himself in the end, though of course whether or not they look to sign a free agent this year will depend entirely on what Dustin Martin decides to do with his future.

    Josh Elliott
    Josh Elliott

    Josh Elliott may be The Roar's Weekend Editor, but at heart he's just a rusted-on North Melbourne tragic with a penchant for pun headlines - and also abnormal alliteration, assuredly; assuming achievability. He once finished third in a hot chilli pie eating contest. You can follow him on Twitter @JoshElliott_29 and listen to him on The Roar's AFL Podcast.

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    The Crowd Says (218)

    • Roar Rookie

      June 18th 2017 @ 6:36pm
      hairy fat man said | June 18th 2017 @ 6:36pm | ! Report

      I’m feeling more confident in my dismissal of the Bulldogs’ premiership chances after today’s effort; not even sure they’ll make the finals.

      Maybe we can have a general bye on the Queen’s Birthday long weekend, except for the Demons-Magpies game. The only accommodation that would then have to be made is those two teams playing the next Sunday.

      • June 18th 2017 @ 6:47pm
        Mattician6x6 said | June 18th 2017 @ 6:47pm | ! Report

        Bulldogs remind me of hawks circa 2009, young team achieves before time stumbles following season.

        • Roar Guru

          June 18th 2017 @ 6:57pm
          Cat said | June 18th 2017 @ 6:57pm | ! Report

          Dogs ain’t building to no three peat though.

        • June 19th 2017 @ 9:28am
          Birdman said | June 19th 2017 @ 9:28am | ! Report

          2009 was down to injuries and Clarko’s Cluster being unpicked which looks like also being the case for the 2017 Dogs with teams stymieing their run out of defence.

      • Editor

        June 19th 2017 @ 9:56am
        Josh Elliott said | June 19th 2017 @ 9:56am | ! Report

        Not sure which current top eight side they could push out at this rate, given Essendon have such a lovely fixture.

    • June 18th 2017 @ 6:42pm
      Mattician6x6 said | June 18th 2017 @ 6:42pm | ! Report

      After next 3 rounds we will have a good indication as to were WCE are at.
      Thursday nights win was easily the eagles most complete performance since the 2015 qualifying final vs Hawks.

      • Roar Guru

        June 18th 2017 @ 6:56pm
        Cat said | June 18th 2017 @ 6:56pm | ! Report

        If that was your sides ‘most complete performance’ your side is in trouble. Cats were their typical terrible selves after a bye and two men down on the bench, congratulations for winning but WCE were nothing special.
        I know, I know, you think the Cats are the most overrated side and giant pretenders, yada, yada, yada; therefore, beating them shouldn’t prove much should it? How can beating such a crap team, that by the way, still sits a game and percentage clear of you on the ladder, require such a ‘complete performance’?

        • June 18th 2017 @ 7:02pm
          Mattician6x6 said | June 18th 2017 @ 7:02pm | ! Report

          Cat you were beaten by a team also down one player come half time.
          Say what you like Geelong was exposed for their lack of depth, a underwhelming spread of goal kickers and a over reliance on 5 players of which 4 lined up.

          • Roar Guru

            June 19th 2017 @ 9:12am
            Cat said | June 19th 2017 @ 9:12am | ! Report

            And it took your mobs ‘most complete performance in years’ to beat such a lowly side. If Cats are as bad as you claim and your team put in its ‘most complete performance since 2015’ than surely you would have won by more than 2 goals.

            • June 19th 2017 @ 10:13am
              Mattician6x6 said | June 19th 2017 @ 10:13am | ! Report

              OK cat just to appease you, Geelong are fantastic the form they have shown this year shows they are light years ahead of every other team. Deep down I wish I was a Geelong supporter .Ultimately Geelong were exposed on Thursday in areas I and most other people queried. Blame Chris’s Scott all you want, question me all you want it does not take away fact Geelong lost to west coast on Thursday.

              • Roar Guru

                June 20th 2017 @ 8:23am
                Cat said | June 20th 2017 @ 8:23am | ! Report

                Never said they didn’t. Even congratulated them on winning. However, you’ve made a mountain out of an ant hill.
                You’ve made two basic claims.
                1. WCE put in their ‘most complete performance
                2. Geelong are terrible and overrated.

                When you look at those two statements together the result should be a massive and dominate win by the Eagles, yet it wasn’t – 83 points and a 13 point margin. While the Eagles were clearly the better team, on the night, and most definitely in the first half, they did lose both the 3rd and 4th quarters. So your ‘most complete game in years’ was really just a good half of football.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 10:26am
                Mattician6x6 said | June 20th 2017 @ 10:26am | ! Report

                Cat if you were to be believed in the rounds leading up Geelong were achieving more than solid wins at home(bulldogs victory meh, 2 close wins against port & crows), I in turn questioned the validity of your assumptions, I also queried whether our losses to gws & gold coast was indicative of the awful form you were professing. And Thursday night answered those questions. 92 & 94 are a long time ago I think its time to let go.

        • June 18th 2017 @ 8:02pm
          Swanny said | June 18th 2017 @ 8:02pm | ! Report

          Cat

          U boast when u win

          U need to learn humility in defeat too

        • June 18th 2017 @ 8:34pm
          Aaron said | June 18th 2017 @ 8:34pm | ! Report

          Honestly if the cats don’t belt us next week at home (and expect it) it’s gonna raise serious red flags about their credentials. Mind you there’s question marks on every team right now.
          Now that Selwood is probably out though…

      • Editor

        June 19th 2017 @ 9:57am
        Josh Elliott said | June 19th 2017 @ 9:57am | ! Report

        Definitely a win to be happy with for Eagles fans, if they have flicked the switch there is still plenty that can be done this year.

        • June 19th 2017 @ 10:27am
          Mattician6x6 said | June 19th 2017 @ 10:27am | ! Report

          Cheers josh, still a few chinks to iron out but what I saw was impressive to say the least.

          • June 19th 2017 @ 10:43am
            I ate pies said | June 19th 2017 @ 10:43am | ! Report

            What I saw was average at best. West Coast are a middling team that has no chance unless they have their home ground advantage.

            • June 19th 2017 @ 10:57am
              Mattician6x6 said | June 19th 2017 @ 10:57am | ! Report

              Gary Lyon is that you??

              • June 19th 2017 @ 1:15pm
                King Bob said | June 19th 2017 @ 1:15pm | ! Report

                That’s funny.
                Good to see some humor rather than brainless boasts.

            • June 19th 2017 @ 5:21pm
              Andrew Browne said | June 19th 2017 @ 5:21pm | ! Report

              As a WC fan I tend to agree – 5-12 team at the moment. However, with Kennedy\Lycett back and maybe NicNat that might change. Still, outsiders to play deep into the finals.

              • June 19th 2017 @ 9:40pm
                Matto said | June 19th 2017 @ 9:40pm | ! Report

                Sounds accurate

    • June 18th 2017 @ 6:50pm
      Macca said | June 18th 2017 @ 6:50pm | ! Report

      10th take – a “sad and tragic” club sits 5-7 while the pre,isership favourite and a lock for top 4 sit 6-6, fine line this season.

      • June 18th 2017 @ 7:34pm
        Paul2 said | June 18th 2017 @ 7:34pm | ! Report

        Sorry, I’m mostly new here. Which is the ‘sad and tragic’ club? Gold Coast?

        • June 19th 2017 @ 8:41am
          Don Freo said | June 19th 2017 @ 8:41am | ! Report

          Macca speaks of his own club, Carlton, in those terms.

          • June 19th 2017 @ 1:12pm
            Macca said | June 19th 2017 @ 1:12pm | ! Report

            And we are just 1 game behind the guaranteed finalists Freo Don – 5-7 with 1/4 of the rising stars for they year compared with 6-6 with the third oldest list in the comp – I know which team I would rather be.

            • Roar Guru

              June 19th 2017 @ 3:02pm
              Dalgety Carrington said | June 19th 2017 @ 3:02pm | ! Report

              Going by W/L Carlton are actually in a worse spot than they were last year.

              • June 19th 2017 @ 3:06pm
                Macca said | June 19th 2017 @ 3:06pm | ! Report

                Dalgety – with a list and team that is considerably younger.
                Everyone expected the blues to win less games than they did last year – the fact that if the win against Richmond they will be in exactly the same spot as 2016 after 13 games (not rounds) and the only need 2 more wins from the next 10 games to match last years performance is exceeding expectations – can you say the same of Freo?

              • Roar Guru

                June 19th 2017 @ 3:23pm
                AdelaideDocker said | June 19th 2017 @ 3:23pm | ! Report

                “to match last years performance is exceeding expectations – can you say the same of Freo?”

                We won four games last year.

                We’ve won six so far this year.

                So yes, I think we’re considerably exceeding last year’s performance.

              • June 19th 2017 @ 3:24pm
                Macca said | June 19th 2017 @ 3:24pm | ! Report

                AD – were your expectations to be as bad as last year?

              • Roar Guru

                June 19th 2017 @ 3:31pm
                AdelaideDocker said | June 19th 2017 @ 3:31pm | ! Report

                Obviously not.

                Why is that a question?

              • Roar Guru

                June 19th 2017 @ 3:38pm
                Dalgety Carrington said | June 19th 2017 @ 3:38pm | ! Report

                Expectations are a dodgy measure, nonetheless they’re doing better than I’d thought they’d be doing at this point of the year. A whole bunch of factors suggested they’d probably take some time to click.

              • June 19th 2017 @ 4:16pm
                Macca said | June 19th 2017 @ 4:16pm | ! Report

                AD – Why is that a question? Because my question wasn’t are Freo doing better than last year, my question was are Freo exceeding expectations this year.

                Dalgety – if your happy with the Dockers the good luck to you – but as someone who predicted the Dockers would rebound pretty well this year and make finals I think they have been very underwhelming and some big decisions need to be made at years end.

              • Roar Guru

                June 19th 2017 @ 5:02pm
                Dalgety Carrington said | June 19th 2017 @ 5:02pm | ! Report

                Forgive me if I don’t place much store in your predictions (and actually predictions full stop).

              • June 19th 2017 @ 5:18pm
                Macca said | June 19th 2017 @ 5:18pm | ! Report

                Dalgety – You don’t have to put much stock in my predictions but when you look at the pre-season predictions there was plenty of positive talk around Freo from it’s fans, now suddenly 6-6 and losing to the bottom placed Brisbane is doing better than most thought.

                If you are happy with Freo that’s up to you but I would much rather be the blues than freo.

              • Roar Guru

                June 19th 2017 @ 6:31pm
                AdelaideDocker said | June 19th 2017 @ 6:31pm | ! Report

                Macca, I personally had the Dockers ninth in my pre-season predictions. Plus, as I said many a time late last year/early this year, I never ever took finals in 2017 for granted. I never expected finals. The loss against the Lions is damn poor, but at the beginning of the season if you’d offered me 6-6 with a half of the season to go, I’d have taken.

                I also personally am rapt to see the Blues performing well. Honestly, I’m very happy for them. I’ll definitely be supporting them this weekend against the Tiges.

              • June 19th 2017 @ 8:50pm
                Macca said | June 19th 2017 @ 8:50pm | ! Report

                AD – that’s understandable, but my point is that Freo is probably the worst 6-6 team we have seen for a while with such a low percentage and having been belted by Brisbane and wthey still rely heavily on the likes of Sandilands and Mundy while the blues have knocked off GWS and have 4 of 13 rising star nominations. To me the blue sky are In the better position but time will tell.

              • Roar Guru

                June 19th 2017 @ 9:25pm
                Dalgety Carrington said | June 19th 2017 @ 9:25pm | ! Report

                You might have noticed I said all predictions Macca. Mainly ’cause they’re cheap, riddled with biases, unconscious and otherwise and full of distance from the actual outcome that can be populated by so much of the unpredictable. People’s brains then go immediately about re-engineering their memories to emphasise and firm up whatever they got close to correct and fade the misses.

                Your “I’d rather be Carlton” is firmly within the above. As I’m sure you’d have been saying the same thing in ’09 or especially ’11 (and probably all the intervening years too!). Equally as foolish, this year doubly-especially, is to read too much into a game or even a run of two or three games.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 9:20am
                Macca said | June 20th 2017 @ 9:20am | ! Report

                Dalgety – Your “I can’t support my opinion so all opinions must be wrong” argument is definitely an interesting approach and I do remember being castigated (Those who are the most biased are the first to see it in others) when I stated a while back that everyone is biased but I find it really odd that someone who doesn’t put any store in “predictions” spends so much time on this site.

                As for “Equally as foolish, this year doubly-especially, is to read too much into a game or even a run of two or three games.” my opinion is based on much more than the last 2-3 games. The key points are for two teams with similar percentages and separated by just one win;

                1) Fremantle 5 players on their primary list under 21, only Darcy Tucker has played double figure games, the blues have 13 players under 21 & 6 have played more than 10 games and another 2 have become regular senior players.
                2) Fremantle have 6 players on their list over 31, Carlton have 1.
                3) I would suggest Freo’s most important 5 players are Fyfe (25) Neale (24) Sandilands (34) Mundy (31) and Johnson (32) while the blues most important 5 players are Cripps (22), Docherty (23) Kreuzer (28) Gibbs (28) and Murphy (30)
                4) the blues have drafted 11 players in the last 2 national drafts – 4 have been nominated for the rising star, Freo have drafted 8 for 2.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 11:40am
                Jon boy said | June 20th 2017 @ 11:40am | ! Report

                Good read Macca, My opinion is that freo has a better list than Blues BUT Blues have a far Superior Coach especially the rebuilding sideFreo had a good 6 weeks then the Wheels Collapsed AGAIN 3 shockers Why? Ross Lyon has to get someREAL Consistency in the next 10 weeks or he HAS got to go and take Mr Negative ChrisBond with him

              • June 20th 2017 @ 11:43am
                Macca said | June 20th 2017 @ 11:43am | ! Report

                Jon Boy – “My opinion is that freo has a better list than Blues BUT Blues have a far Superior Coach” I’d agree with that, but given the comparative age of our list and the quality of the coach I believe in 2 years time we will have gone past the dockers.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 12:16pm
                Jon boy said | June 20th 2017 @ 12:16pm | ! Report

                Can’t argue on that one Macca, you could be right, Hopefully both top4

              • June 20th 2017 @ 2:35pm
                Don Freo said | June 20th 2017 @ 2:35pm | ! Report

                As usual, you centre on the wrong numbers. Why under 21? Because it suits your numbers?

                Statistically, teams with 12 or more players under 23yo play in more Grand Finals before they reach the age of 30yo than anyone else. Freo has 20 players on their primary list 23yo or under. Wow!

                Just wow!!!

              • June 20th 2017 @ 3:17pm
                Macca said | June 20th 2017 @ 3:17pm | ! Report

                Don – “teams with 12 or more players under 23yo” yet you say “Freo has 20 players on their primary list 23yo or under” they aren’t the same number.

                Freo currently have 13 players on their list under 23yo, the blues have 17 – even by you measure the blues are in a better position.

                If you want to go to Freo’s 17 who are 23 or under (I am not counting Rookies) the blues still win at 21.

                So which number should I be focusing on that shows Freo are in a better position than the blues?

              • June 20th 2017 @ 3:40pm
                Don Freo said | June 20th 2017 @ 3:40pm | ! Report

                23 or under. 20 comes after 19.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 3:52pm
                Macca said | June 20th 2017 @ 3:52pm | ! Report

                Don – On your “Statistically, teams with 12 or more players under 23yo play in more Grand Finals” if we took the word “teams” literally the blues had 10 players under 23 playing on Saturday night.

                Last time out the dockers had just 7 players under 23.

                Another win for the Blues.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 4:24pm
                Don Freo said | June 20th 2017 @ 4:24pm | ! Report

                You pathetically move the goal posts when your silliness is shut down. Last time your challenge was about “primary list” players, now it is last game. Pointless.

                Logue, Darcy, Brad Hill,Sheridan, Weller, Hughes,Crozier, Tucker, Blakely, Taberner, Hambling, McCarthy, Balic, Pearce, Langdon, Grey, Apeness, Cox, Ryan, Collins.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 4:51pm
                Macca said | June 20th 2017 @ 4:51pm | ! Report

                “Moving the goal posts when your silliness is shut down?” How exactly did I do that and how have you shut me down, I demonstrated that the blues have more players under 23 on their primary list, I demonstrated the blues have more player 23 or under on their primary list and just in case you wanted to take the “teams” term literally I demonstrated the blues team has more 23 or under players in it.

                As for your list of players Hamling & Taberner are both 24 and on the list I am looking at (footywire) Grey is listed as a rookie but even including those 3 it is still 21 to 20 the blues way.

                So I’ll ask again “which number should I be focusing on that shows Freo are in a better position than the blues?”

              • June 20th 2017 @ 5:48pm
                Don Freo said | June 20th 2017 @ 5:48pm | ! Report

                Hmmm. Move those posts again…

                One minute you are arguing that Carlton has a younger team than Freo and when you see Freo’s numbers, you concede by clutching at whether Hambling and Taberner can be counted as 23 and under because they had a birthday during the season. That still leaves 18.

                Can you remember your actual point?

              • Roar Guru

                June 20th 2017 @ 4:36pm
                Paul D said | June 20th 2017 @ 4:36pm | ! Report

                I didn’t know you were into potato farming Don.

                With that many spuds you could get a job supplying to Kettle.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 5:01pm
                Macca said | June 20th 2017 @ 5:01pm | ! Report

                “Delisted at the end of the season Grey was given the opportunity to train with the club, and was re-listed during the Rookie Draft.”

                So your 20 players 23 and under on the primary list includes a rookie listed player and 2 24 years olds but it is me who is moving the goals posts?!!

                You make a Hungry Jacks Thickshake look like a glass of milk.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 5:21pm
                Jon boy said | June 20th 2017 @ 5:21pm | ! Report

                Grey was on the list for 3 years given ONE game,,,,,,,By Ross when he rested14 players and has shown he should have been given a chance long ago,Another bloke Cats Sam Menegola was on the list for 3 YEARS NO Games Deluca,Nyhuis,Ubergang,Duman NO Games Does not like rotating players

              • June 20th 2017 @ 5:26pm
                Macca said | June 20th 2017 @ 5:26pm | ! Report

                Jon Boy – which is exactly what I was getting at with “1) Fremantle 5 players on their primary list under 21, only Darcy Tucker has played double figure games, the blues have 13 players under 21 & 6 have played more than 10 games and another 2 have become regular senior players” even if the dockers had as many young blokes on their list as Carlton (which they don’t no matter what age you go with) they aren’t being played which puts the blues in a better position.

              • June 20th 2017 @ 9:59pm
                Macca said | June 20th 2017 @ 9:59pm | ! Report

                Don – are you the full quid?

                Let me go through this slowly, the blues currently have 21 players on their primary list that are 23 or younger, 21 is a bigger number than 17 (Grey being on the rookie list and therefore not on the primary list). 21 being a bigger number than 17 means that Carlon have more players 23 or under or more young players.

                Given my point in the original post regarding the number of players under 21 was that Carlton hadn’t more young players and therefore were in a better position than Freo I said still valid when you increase the age to twenty three of younger.

                This also means your accusation of cherry picking the age doesn’t stand up.

                Can you understand that, is that basic enough for your comprehension skills?

                Again I will ask you, what set of numbers, at what age, does it show that Freo has a younger list, team or squad than the blues?

              • June 20th 2017 @ 10:06pm
                Don Freo said | June 20th 2017 @ 10:06pm | ! Report

                No. You can apply that answer to any of your questions or as a rejection of any of your comments.

                I don’t really read all of your comments, though. When I see you change your argument, I just chortle and reply to a phrase or one of your tanties…then count the minutes until you come back with a new argument. Admittedly, the mods have spoiled my fun a bit because sometimes there is a time delay.

                You have changed the thrust of your arguments/ comments/ dribbles 4 times now so that your original line of blabber is dead and buried.

                What is established is that Freo’s youth is the far more desirable squad and we have that better squad for at least 8 more years by which time our next wave will be ahead of yours…for the same reasons.

                Freo does it all better. You see, if your youth is better than Freo’s youth, how can you be satisfied with less wins when we play with inferior youth?

              • June 21st 2017 @ 9:07am
                Macca said | June 21st 2017 @ 9:07am | ! Report

                Oh Don – I wish you would have more self respect than continue to embarrass yourself like this.

                ” When I see you change your argument” I know you have real issues with comprehension but I thought even you could understand the argument “the blues are in a better position than Freo because they have more young players” hasn’t changed, I have just provided multiple facts to support the argument (the blues have more players under 21, more players under 23, more players currently 23 and under and more players who were 23 or under at the start of the year). With just a little bit of effort I am sure you can manage to grasp this concept.

                “if your youth is better than Freo’s youth, how can you be satisfied with less wins when we play with inferior youth?” I can be satisfied with less wins because you don’t just play with inferior youth (as evidenced by the difference in rising star nominations) but you play with less youth and the youth you do play with isn’t as young.

                This was pointed out in the original comment you took offence at;
                “1) Fremantle 5 players on their primary list under 21, only Darcy Tucker has played double figure games, the blues have 13 players under 21 & 6 have played more than 10 games and another 2 have become regular senior players.”

                And when I discussed the number of under 23 players in the most recent teams “the blues had 10 players under 23 playing on Saturday night. Last time out the dockers had just 7 players under 23.”

                And is further evidenced by the fact that in the weekends win over the Suns the blues had 5 teenagers and 3 twenty year olds playing compared to Freo’s 1 and 1 in their loss to the Lions.

                The fact that the dockers are playing more mature players but are only 1 game in front of the blues with about the same percentage is exactly why I think the blues are in a better spot – is that clear enough for you?

              • June 20th 2017 @ 10:05pm
                Macca said | June 20th 2017 @ 10:05pm | ! Report

                Don – and 20 might come afte 19 but where does 19 come into it? The blues have 21 players 23 or under right now (not counting Kerridge or Buckley who turned 24 since the season started) and 21 comes after 20.

              • June 21st 2017 @ 2:35am
                Geoff Schaefer said | June 21st 2017 @ 2:35am | ! Report

                Watching Macca and Don Freo go head to head has all the entertainment and skills of a Sunday arfternoon Freo/Carlton game…

              • June 21st 2017 @ 9:08am
                Macca said | June 21st 2017 @ 9:08am | ! Report

                Geoff – I do feel bad arguing with a bloke who clearly has trouble counting (thinking 21 is less than 17 is just sad) but he won’t learn if we don’t take the time to help him, it takes a village after all.

      • Roar Guru

        June 18th 2017 @ 8:43pm
        Col from Brissie said | June 18th 2017 @ 8:43pm | ! Report

        The premiership favourites have kicked a total of 14 goals for the last 2 games. Surely it’s time for their gun recruit Travis Cloke to step up!!!

        • Roar Guru

          June 19th 2017 @ 9:14am
          Cat said | June 19th 2017 @ 9:14am | ! Report

          Or for their $7m forward to play his one good game of the year.

        • June 19th 2017 @ 10:05am
          Macca said | June 19th 2017 @ 10:05am | ! Report

          Col – I remember saying in the pre-season that the dogs lack of key forwards would be an issue as other teams countered their game plan.

      • Editor

        June 19th 2017 @ 9:59am
        Josh Elliott said | June 19th 2017 @ 9:59am | ! Report

        Don’t worry Macca, I’m sure a two-goal win over North next week will make the Dogs really stand out as premiership favourites again.

        • June 19th 2017 @ 10:03am
          Macca said | June 19th 2017 @ 10:03am | ! Report

          Maybe Josh – but the blues 1 goal win over the Tigers on Sunday (probably after giving up a 5 goal lead at some point) will keep them hot on their heels! 😉

          I see someone commented on your preseason article over the weekend http://www.theroar.com.au/2017/03/07/get-the-spoon-ready-for-carlton-theyre-forked/

          • June 19th 2017 @ 2:12pm
            ken oath said | June 19th 2017 @ 2:12pm | ! Report

            “For now though, their list situation is simply diabolical, and while I like Brendon Bolton – how could anyone not, with that cheery face – his honeymoon period has come and gone.” Said the oracle once….

            • June 19th 2017 @ 2:23pm
              Macca said | June 19th 2017 @ 2:23pm | ! Report

              Ken – how did you settle on that quote there were so many to choose from –

              “Will Carlton’s future be any brighter than its present? So long as the club chooses holding 27-year-olds against their will over acquiring more first-round picks, and continues to fill out its list with Reject Shop stocking-stuffers, I remain unconvinced.”

              “None of the youth seem ready to take that next step up in 2017… there’s very little talented youth on the list”

              “almost-30 Murphy is badly in need of some revitalisation.”

              “a string of six wins from seven games from Round 5 through to Round 11, which even included a win against an eventual top-four side, Geelong. ….They closed out the season with a four-goal loss to Essendon, a team missing a dozen players, a side so depleted they were tipped by many to go through 2016 without a single victory.

              If you’re wondering to yourself which of these two sides of the coin was the ‘real’ Carlton, it is the team who lost ten of their last 11 matches that you will see turning up in 2017.”

              😉

    • June 18th 2017 @ 7:05pm
      Darren said | June 18th 2017 @ 7:05pm | ! Report

      MattyB I think your arrogance last week suggesting Dogs are still flag favourites reflects the overall psyche of your club. You win a flag after 60 odd years and now think it will just happen. Look out you might be past by a sad tragic club at this rate.

      • Roar Rookie

        June 18th 2017 @ 7:19pm
        hairy fat man said | June 18th 2017 @ 7:19pm | ! Report

        Bulldogs have blown out from $7 to $14 in one market.

      • June 19th 2017 @ 2:13pm
        mattyb said | June 19th 2017 @ 2:13pm | ! Report

        Hello Darren and you are on the right path through life thinking about me.
        I believe you are correct. The dogs do appear to have a premiership hangover and as a fan I’m not overly fussed,which means I probably am also. After the greatest finals run in the history of the game we have become complacent.
        Still plenty of time left though and if the dogs can recapture some form they will again be feared and back in premiership reckoning.

        • June 19th 2017 @ 4:36pm
          ken oath said | June 19th 2017 @ 4:36pm | ! Report

          Looks like your sad and tragic club that took 60 years to win 1 premiership should have come in better prepared for this year. Knowing very well that the run you got into the grand final more than likely will not be replicated again any time soon, floundering down the bottom end of the 8 will not provide success this year, that is if you even make it into the 8.

          • June 19th 2017 @ 6:43pm
            Pumping Dougie said | June 19th 2017 @ 6:43pm | ! Report

            Here we go, the Blue Boys have had an unexpected win (not the same as an unexpected flag, just saying …) and are up and about. LOL

    • June 18th 2017 @ 7:38pm
      Swannies said | June 18th 2017 @ 7:38pm | ! Report

      I’m calling it now…Brad Scott will never coach North to finals again and may part ways with Roos at end of next season. He can’t handle losing for the sake of long-term development and a P Roos could well be enticed by $$$ to replace him. Great to see the mighty bloods back to their barnstorming best!

      • June 18th 2017 @ 8:42pm
        Swanny said | June 18th 2017 @ 8:42pm | ! Report

        Swannies ,

        What about some support for the other 16 teams u go for . 👍

        • June 18th 2017 @ 9:20pm
          Swannies said | June 18th 2017 @ 9:20pm | ! Report

          Swanny,

          Putting aside my Swans bias…I’m very happy for Melbourne at the moment. Would be great to see them in the eight. Carlton and Suns look to be making positive strides. Richmond are due for some success too and great to see that.

          Not much pleases me with Lions and North to be honest! But a decent coach will be the answer there.

          • June 18th 2017 @ 10:49pm
            Swanny said | June 18th 2017 @ 10:49pm | ! Report

            But what abt your love of hawthorn and Richmond , or have u had divorce

      • June 19th 2017 @ 8:15am
        Powerboy said | June 19th 2017 @ 8:15am | ! Report

        The sad result of Brad Scott getting the boot would be that some other club would convince itself the fool can actually coach. Need an excuse in the AFL? Just call the Scott brothers – the best in the business.

      • Editor

        June 19th 2017 @ 10:01am
        Josh Elliott said | June 19th 2017 @ 10:01am | ! Report

        Don’t think Paul Roos will ever coach an AFL team again.

    • June 18th 2017 @ 7:52pm
      peter wolf said | June 18th 2017 @ 7:52pm | ! Report

      Have to agree on BS the thing that surprised me a few weeks ago when North Melbourne had 10 goals on the board against can’t quite recall against Adelaide Crows and Adelaide were that margin down? And look now what a complete
      turn around

      • Editor

        June 19th 2017 @ 10:02am
        Josh Elliott said | June 19th 2017 @ 10:02am | ! Report

        Defensive pressure was such a standout in that game, not sure why the coach isn’t pushing for us to go for that standard every week.

        • June 19th 2017 @ 6:46pm
          Pumping Dougie said | June 19th 2017 @ 6:46pm | ! Report

          Don’t worry Josh, you’ll find unprecedented levels of pressure for us next week. It’s become in vogue. And our players are still drunk, but so am I so that’s okay.

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