Yep Top14, Prem & Pro14 clubs learnt quickly who to look for in SH talent pool, after the initial rush of ‘over-the-hill’ ex-Test players 20 years ago. The impact on SR and Euro club rugby, has been a gradual but steady inversion of quality over last 15-odd years. (Well, maybe not inversion, its hard to say whether top 10 Euro clubs are better than top 10 SH clubs, but certainly a re-weighting in relative quality overall.)
That’s been an unavoidable trend tbf, though a first step Sanzaar might consider to mitigate their issues is running TRC earlier, in Jul-Aug instead of mid-Aug to early Oct (T14/Prem/URC all start in Sep).
Then follow it up with a minor re-org of domestic schedules to align better with player availability, grass-roots development and fan engagement.
Feb to April – full SRAU/SRA (12-13 weeks: double roundrobin + final, 31 matches each)
May – short SRTT (4 weeks: top 3 and bottom 3 from SRAU/SRA qualify into champions & challenge groups, each play 3 vs other comp teams, top 2 into finals, 20 matches total)
June – Test tours
July & Aug – TRC+Bled
Aug to Oct – NPC/NRC/Currie Cup (12-13 weeks, with only Aug overlap missing Test players, ~ 30-50 matches per country)
Nov – Test tours
Beneath this, for amateur rugby…
March to July – all Shute Sh, Hospital Cup, Dent Trophy, etc, or Akl Gallaher Sh, Wgtn Jubilee Cup, Canterbury Country Cup, etc, or WP SuperLeague, BB Carlton, KZN Moor Cup, (+ Varsity Cup, Gold Cup from Feb in SA) etc.
So that, by the time the premier national domestic comps start in Aug, all the best club players are available to the top 8-14 state/provincial squads for NPC/NRC/Currie Cup. Any locally-based Test players will feed in from Sept, while others go to NH.
Here SA already run their age-group Currie Cup comps in same window to expose u19/u20/u21s to premier rugby, & NZ has the Heartland & National u85kg comps too.
So, grass-roots rugby gets a full 25-30 week season, maximising player utilisation and opportunities. There is more space for top-tier domestic rugby to breathe and to develop stronger SH rugby economies based on local competitions, local players, and local supporters & businesses. And the whole set-up provides a good development pathway for all players, coaches, physios, admins through the national hierarchy.
Is it a pipedream to imagine NZR/RA/SARU can coordinate the moving parts of each of their own rugby scenes to ensure survival of SH rugby against NH economic power? Im so disappointed SA teams are in URC not SR, the thin edge of the wedge is fatter now. Hoping desperately that SLAR in Sth America grows well to provide more opportunities outside Eur/USA for them too.
PS. The current July Test window moving to June is still feasible within limitations of NH club season, and ideally the Test tours would switch anyway (go to NH in June, host NH teams in Nov) for better weather, better rugby and no travel at end of long season too, which makes things easier.

yep… I was thinking, what about obelix? and vitalstatistix seems worth having around to ask some of these tough questions… sure he’d have some good answers 🙂

6N is a private comp just like Sanzaar, CVC just invested in existing set-up, seems a long shot for them inviting SA to the NH party every Feb/Mar

I can see the attraction for the beancounters having another top team involved but getting it over the line considering all the extra admin it would bring, plus SA exiting Sanzaar ….. pffff dunno

yep, that defensive organising is, i understand from another site, what Rassienaber have Kwagga in for, on top of his defensive pace and linkplay from 7s

couple of explaining vids showing him doing same head-up scanning as DV and marshalling the defensive resets

Make the YC 20mins out the game then and keep red as it is now, off with no replacement.

Yep Racing used their enormous scoreboard for that, but goal kicks are on the clock already hey, #crowdentertainment 🙂

How do you think the new 50/22 and goalline drop out kicks will go in Tests?

Yes! Earning 3 points from a dubious scrum penalty won in your own half, when you were nowhere near scoring ….. aahhh drives me crazy. Variable penalty points based on field position is a good idea.

And also dropkicks for conversions – yes, & I would drop to 1 point too.

6 point converted try is 2x value of a penalty in 22m, and 3x value of penalty outside 22m. And a penalty point from your own half is worth bugger-all really. Better go for lineout and play from there instead of us watching 90 secs of a kicker placing the ball, stepping back into weird kick-routine (dance, crouch, visualise with head at funny angle …. 😂 etc) before kicking from 40m out.

Yep, fully agree.

If ref gave 60 secs from when the whistle is blown for a pen, then team has to decide AND kick in that time, instead of taking 30secs to decide, then have another 90secs to kick for goal.

Highlander, a set piece clock in the Top14? Not seen that, you sure?
Anyway, yes or no, you’re right that a set piece clock is no good. It will just feed other problems. If players can take a rest with the clock stopped, they will. Impact then lands on total game time, broadcast schedules, player fitness, player size….. plus the safety risk of rushing the scrum set-up before it runs out. Just no.
Despite our perceptions though, lineouts waste very little time over the course of a whole game. For around 25 lineouts a game, timing from when the ball goes into touch to throw-in, they average under 30secs. Barely enough for a quick tv highlight of prior play. And some are quick throw-ins taking a few secs only.
Scrums though, despite there being only 10-12 a game nowadays, now average around 65 secs, from whistle-blow to ball-in-play again (or penalty 😡 ). The shortest scrums (no reset, quick play of the ball) last 41-42 sec, the longest (1-2 resets, holding ball in to win a penalty) can last 1.45-1.50.
So over a whole game, total scrum time and lineout time is similar, 11-13 minutes each out of the 80. Though there’s very little deadtime in a 30sec lineout and refs already can award a FK for a team taking too long.
Scrum timings though, can be improved. WR rightly is focused on safety so we wont change the front-end, ie. a stable set-up (crouch-bind-set). But we could speed up the second half (the shove and getting ball out) with same rule for rucks, 5 secs to play the ball once its won, or else a FK. If refs call “use it… 4… 3… 2… 1…” once the ball is at the No. 8’s feet, it forces quicker play of the ball. No holding ball in, wheeling or extended shove to pop the front row & win a penalty.
So this is a way to reward faster scrumplay, rather than use a clock to limit slow scrumplay. We get quicker scrums, less neck compression injury risk, fewer collapses/penalties, more ball in play, fitter players, smaller players (smaller is relative, I mean fewer 120kg behemoths). Flip-side is also very little chance of 5m push-over tries, or weaker scrums being disintegrated, which are big crowd-pleasers, but still pretty unsafe.
This doesn’t take away the ‘contest’ either, as defensive packs are still able to disrupt clean ball or win a tighthead etc just as now. However if scrums took only 30secs, as they used to in the 90s, we gain another 5mins of play, almost 15% more than now. Thats got to be worth it, no?

You must be Joe King!! There is no part of this that is less than laughable 😂 Diamond humour mate 👍

Yep, pragmatism often wins at Test level, so few opports to score points normally.

Same is normally the case in finals matches at club level, though was interesting to listen to Exeter coach Rob Baxter after the Prem final on Sat.

66mins. Exeter leading 28-26 and win pen right in front. They take the 3 instead of lineout-maul-try which has been a successful MO all season
73mins. Quins score in corner, Smith converts to lead by 2
77mins. Quins score in corner, Smith converts to lead by 9
78 mins. Exe score from restart, conversion makes it 38-40, too little too late

Post match interview, Baxter queries “near the end of the game, going for posts to go 5 ahead, why are we not taking charge of the game, go for the corner or take a tap?”

Different game scenario to most Tests of course, but worthwhile considering a different take on a winning mindset?

Great read, and timely given the start of Test season, with new AB skip, new France skip, on-going Qs about Aus skip, replacement Lions skip, Bok skip who’s not done it for 18 months ….

Interesting to see difference in thinking between Woodward’s 5 essentials, #1 of which is ‘best player in their position in the team’ (which seems to match most journalist & armchair fan opinions) and the Cotterill/Cheetham research of 8 elite prof rugby captains. In their summary of the feedback from those 8, nowhere does ‘best in their position’ show up.

They split captaincy up into role, skills, requirements, challenges, the coach, development, experience, context, and approach ….. where even the ‘Skills’ category refers to player management, relationship building, tactical understanding, conflict resolution, communication, and confidence enhancer.

Most experienced, or never misses a tackle, or excellent kicker …. in the mind of those who’ve done it, these aren’t part of it.

Haha who knows!
Regs money, yes, that needs clarity but taking out SR tier takes out significant cost too. And I only partly agree about spreading talent too thin as there are already 14 NPC & 8 NRC teams, and not all full of school leavers. Also NPC/NRC schedules in Test season means no test players, but matches are still pretty good quality. Imagine if Test players WERE available and played in double round-robin comps?
How much more broadcast/ticket/merch/sponsor revenue would that generate for the clubs & national unions? The ~ 1.1mil combined annual spectators of existing SRA/SRAU & Mitre10/NRC would definitely grow if they could watch local teams, traditional rivalries, test stars, every weekend …
Then a 2-tier ‘Pacific Cup’ for top & bottom of NPC/NRC, top 4 & next 4 from TL, + MP, could have pool games and semis+final done in 8 weeks. All top clubs/players are involved, leaving 20+ weeks for national club comps & 12-13 test w/ends for a 40-odd week season.
Voila! 😉

Hi BroBiden
I looked at crowd numbers last year and you’re near as damn it right, the 20.3k average gate for SRA2020 was last exceeded in SR in 2013 (15 teams). The 5 SR seasons before were all 20-22k/game, the 5 before that were all 24-26k.
However SRA crowds seem an outlier when compared to NZ crowds in old SR since …. well, since forever almost. Total SR crowd numbers were dominated by SA in the 2010s, ~43% of total gate before Arg/Jpn joined and still 29-36% of total gate after they joined. So accounting for other non-NZ teams, I estimate no more than ~25% of a SR season’s total gate came from NZ. This means the average NZ ‘old’ SR crowds would be in the range of 12-16k max and SRA crowds are 25%-50% higher. Something to be said for a short season and all your Test players available!
In comparison, Top14 & Prem crowds run at ~ 15k average, but over a longer season – 187 & 135 games vs last full SR season of 127 (or 18 games in SRA 2020).
Currie Cup crowds averaged 18k in 2012/13 but by 2017 were down to 7k over 40-odd games with probably > 50 leading players already in Europe. Average NPC/Mitre10 crowds were ~3.3k over 76 games by 2018, while few ABs ever played in the comp.
So SRA has been great for fan engagement, though 5 teams & 21 games isn’t viable. SRAU isn’t any better, financially-speaking. However, locally (in PI, JP) there are no other comparable quality leagues to bolster SRTT, and the new FD/MP franchises have a shaky financial footing.
However, might the best next step to dissolve the SR franchises format & innovate another way? Perhaps full focus on NPC, NRC & Top League as the premier regional comps with double round-robin and SF/F. Then qualification into a Pacific Champions/Challenge Cup format like Europe?
You restructure the 3 leagues for 32 clubs in total, playing for 16 Champs & 16 Chall spots (or 20 & 12) each in a 4 pool format with home & away pool games, then semis & final. A 7- or 8-match ‘Pacific Cup’ allows for longer & stronger local NPC/NRC/Top League comps of 20+ games/season instead of around 10 today.
-More ‘local footy against local rivals’, better fan engagement.
-Bigger local broadcast tv audience, more local sponsor opportunities.
-Improved player welfare with more squad rotation.
-Wider opportunities out of school-feeder system, & amateur club players who miss that route.
-Meaningful end-of-season games for middle/bottom-of-the-table clubs to qualify for ‘Pacific Cup’ places.
-2-4 games travelling out the country, & 2-4 hosting international sides at home.
-More varied coach & player exposure, and more development pathways.
If you’ve read this far, OK now shoot it down ????

Yep precisely. Adding a 5sec rule to play the ball would encourage faster scrum completion by the side putting in and open up backplay more too.

Growing up on the small side I never minded a tackle but having only ever played at 9 my u14 coach suggested trying out at hooker one practice

Bloody Nora i can remember that pressure still now after 30+ years! Couldn’t breathe, couldnt see, couldnt move ….. after a couple of scrums he took pity on me and put me back at 9 :)))))

And interestingly, for all the comments about 2nd row hip bind adding power/stability, both ARG and ITA scrums were binding between props’ legs.

Some effort to maintain the pressure for that long, imagine the force through the front rows’ shoulders/necks …. ~900kilos on ~900kilos!!

You gonna leave us hanging like that?? Chabon, vos explicanoslo!! 🙂

Scrums were not ´depowered´ before they became penalty-generators, so hard to believe correcting an easily (and cynically) exploitable law will mean they become leaning-contests now.

Comments from Inbrief and scrum above are 100% correct. Skill of a defensive scrum is in disrupting the quality of ball for opposition, but it beggars belief that a scrum that has clearly won possession can then gain a penalty for simply holding the ball in while waiting for the other 8 to fall apart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Njm5Nn9bg

By all means, award penalties for dangerous or foul play. But for dominant play, the reward is possession. Switch scrum pens to f/ks and replicate winning scrumball with ball on the ground for a tap with 10m of offside.

Great read Nick & good shout JD on diff options… i have one more, that leads into a possible resolution for global calendar timings

Its based on switching tours around, so go south in Nov and go north in Jun/Jul. Better weather, better rugby, better crowds. Other benefits for players too, travel mid-season not end-of-season, less fatigue, fewer injuries affecting selection, better rugby experience for all.

So, tell me if below is crazy…

1. Shift Lions to Oct-Nov, same 6-week schedule
2. Shift the SA/Aus/NZ Nov tours to Jun2022, and the Eng/Ire/etc tours to SH to Nov2022
3. Make this change permanent, with 4-week test windows in Jun & Nov. Also means RWC & Lions alternate in similar window each 2 years

Tehn for calendar fix ideas…
4. NH Clubs: European Cup 8wks from end-Aug to mid-Oct, so 1 window not dotted throughout season. Then Prem/Top/Pro leagues get 32-week window until end-May
5. 6N starts a month later, more spring weather/dry rugby, everybody loves it. No clash with club games
6. SH Clubs: Super Rugby (new format with less travel & twice the excitement) 15wks from Feb to mid-May, with 2 PI teams and ideally with SA but who knows how Pro16 goes. Then Mitre10/Currie/NRC (or new Aus national club champs, after SS/QP/etc) from Aug-Oct
7. RC runs Aug-Sep as usual, though asap add JPN into 5N format, all play 2 home, 2 away. Keep 2 extra Bled in July, and copy-paste to new SA-Arg annual series
8. Create second tier RC for 3x PI + USA, URU/CAN/NAM … whoever is top 10 outside of Europe gets in. Same format 2 home, 2 away. Build up tier 2 test champs OUTSIDE Europe

So, not a ‘single’ global season where everybody plays in same timings, since thats not feasible with winter/summer differences…. Instead a ‘dovetail’ global season where club leagues, tests & tours are aligned for north and south. For me, its better for players, clearer for fans, simpler for broadcasters.

Anyone know why this elv wasnt maintained/rolled out?

Ive said elsewhere same as PocoLoco & others here.. switch scrum pens to f/ks. If point of scrum is to restart after an error, then makes little sense to allow dominant scrum to milk a pen, and then kick 3 points from behind halfway when they werent even in an attacking position.

Scrum pens -> f/ks and treat scrums (and mauls) same as rucks, once possession is secured at back, 5 secs to play it or else f/k the other way.

Obvsly this excludes dangerous play which penalties are designed for

Im sure most of us started barefoot until 9 or 10, but in nz/aus/sa/arg we had a great climate to do that

Im now in north england and watching my 8 & 5yr olds starting to play now, in the rain and mud and soggy thick grass, below 10C for 3+ months, a layer of leggings/thermals under their kit & 15mm studs on their boots to grip (no exaggeration, i just measured????), then barefoot rugby is not workable everywhere.

How they agree to go back each week is beyond me!! ????

Nice read AH. Fair play to you for such a glowing write up of a rival team! ????

And its true, the Irish are better story-tellers than most!! ????

While not a traditional line-out option 8, Bastareaud made up for that with his ‘backline-player’ vision and skillset as a carrier, he was immense. Great shout to shift him there by Lyon

And yes, great place for Rodda to improve his game. Intensity of Top14, both the games and the rugby culture, as well as different playing style, coaches and tournament structure. Huge experience gain.

Im curious about your thinking that better quality rugby (more competitive SR teams etc) will tempt SH players back from Europe. Players go for different reasons of course, but lets face it #1 is the salary, while all SH reckons NH club game is a lesser beast than SR (true or not, its the majority perception). Even post-Covid, whenever that might be, Nth-Sth salary-gap will be there, so I just hope the increased SR rosters (4 Aus teams to 5, addition of 1-2 PI teams in 2022, etc) provides enough opportunities for top players to stick around.

What i REALLY hope is that SARU sees that PRO16 is a fools errand and together with UAR put together a SR Atlantic (or similar but better name), so that Sanzaar can ‘get the band back again’.
– 18 teams in three 6-team roundrobins
– Top 3 & bottom 3 qualify into two 9-team international comps (Champions league, Challenge league), but play other country teams only, so 3 home & 3 away each
– Top 4 from each go to SF then F
108 matches, 15 weeks (Feb-May)
700+ players, 7 countries (AR,SA,AU,NZ,FI,TO,SA)
Less travel, max 1-2wk tours (excl SF/F of course)
Double the post-season (4 semis, 2 finals) so all teams/fans involved to the end
Bigger commercial sell in broadcast/sponsorship than old SR, more competitive salaries vs Eur/Jpn/MLR

Yep subs strategy would be interesting. Bomb squad vs Starters+Finishers vs Blooding Youth+Fitness Build etc

Too many subs now anyhow arent there? 🙂