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Joined July 2020
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“While there are many clubs out west like Blue Mountains, Western Raptors, Blacktown and more, it makes sense to have a representative club in the mountains.”
Sorry Nic, I know this sounds like nit picking, but we have to stop seeing Premier Rugby Clubs as “representative”. They draw players from all over Aust due to their standard of play and how Premier comps have been set up.
They should no longer be seen as amateur or “grass roots” anymore for the same reasons. That’s what schools, suburban, sub-district and district rep sides are.
If anyone want to actually solve these problems, we have to understand why these clubs exists in the first place. Otherwise too many entities try to be something they aren’t, which in turn guarantees failure.
How the west was lost again: Rugby's battler club suffers another blow and this one could be fatal
You’re connecting multiple dots and filling in a lot of blanks if that’s what you think I’m saying.
The fault lies with multiple bodies. Aust Rugby is super fractured.
And yes, I think the school rugby system is one of them.
Is the Rugby Schools system still as relevant as the days of old - or is it in need of a serious overhaul?
Agreed.
Participation is the domain of subdistrict/suburban clubs, schools and district bodies. Nothing higher.
Development is that of Premier Clubs & SR franchises.
But if schools don’t want to be responsible for development, then they should stop actively recruiting the top talent. It’s a form of warehousing.
Is the Rugby Schools system still as relevant as the days of old - or is it in need of a serious overhaul?
So don’t put so many resources into attracting the best players if that’s the case.
Is the Rugby Schools system still as relevant as the days of old - or is it in need of a serious overhaul?
SS isn’t amateur in nature either though is it.
It is completely distinct from Suburban Rugby and needs to be shown as so as opposed to being labelled as “grassroots”.
I do kinda feel sorry for Premier Rugby clubs as they don’t seem to fit anywhere.
'Caesar is not going to be unkind to Caesar': Ex-ARU coaching director's report for RA - and what's needed to fix game
Frankly,
Depends what you mean by competitive?
Competitive enough to win the Waratah Shield? Irrelevant.
Competitive enough to play safely? Important.
Competitive enough to field a team and participate, regardless of the result? 100% relevant at that level. And I believe that’s what Dick is referring to. Participation.
Schools are where the kids are. Any of the codes that create an effective model that makes it easy for them (and their parents) to get involved at school will win in the long run. Creating below average players like me that become tragics is just as important as creating elite players.
I even believe that if done well enough, schools could replace junior clubs and thus create senior old boy clubs for those school levers that stay local.
'Caesar is not going to be unkind to Caesar': Ex-ARU coaching director's report for RA - and what's needed to fix game
That happens everywhere.
'Caesar is not going to be unkind to Caesar': Ex-ARU coaching director's report for RA - and what's needed to fix game
NP,
NSW Rugby historically developed from Sydney outwards into the regional centres we have today, as Australia is bloody sparse.
So the Sydney Rugby Union was well ahead of the game in Aust and at one point (1980’s?) had about 80 clubs affiliated. At some stage, in an effort to concentrate talent, 20 of these clubs were anointed as “district clubs” while the rest became “sub-district”. So if you wanted to “represent” your metro district, you now could.
The DC’s played in 2 divs of 10 teams each with rel/prom. The SD’s 8 divs of 10 (now 8) teams each.
In another effort to further refine a platform of player development, 8 of the DC’s were dropped to SD (which changed it’s name from Sub-District to Suburban) so the remaining 12 could form what we now know as NSW Premier Rugby. This was very effective in creating the best “club” rugby comp in Aust, drawing upon the best talent in Sydney and also attracting the best from all other states and developing them further.
Brisbane pretty much followed suit and now also has QLD Premier Rugby that is above their Suburban Rugby.
But yes, despite NSW rugby fans referring to NSW Premier Rugby as “club rugby, amateur and grassroots”, it has clearly been set up as something different to Suburban and Sub-district (Country clubs) altogether.
Other cities also have “Premier Rugby” comps, but just without the scores of suburban clubs below them. So not really comparable.
Do any young New South Welshmen actually want to play for the Waratahs?
C’mon Frankie, even I can do better than that!
Do any young New South Welshmen actually want to play for the Waratahs?
Despite the fact that RGS has pretty much detached itself from QLD rugby, this is the stovepiping that I also think is damaging. Pro franchises scrapping for resources and creating “feeders”.
The goal should be for Rugby Capricornica (as an Aust Rugby Province and local community) to have it’s own Academy for local player, coach, admin, trainer and referee development.
ALL local clubs and schools should be aligned to their local community’s governing body, not the region, country sub-union, country union, state, SR franchise bla bla bla…..too many layers. Stovepiping = bad. This is another thing that has driven the community game into irrelevance.
'Right people in right roles': QRU break silence on RA's reform hopes, back review into Wallabies' RWC flop
ECA,
Behold! The fruits of professionalism!
Some data somewhere would indicate that Mackay juniors don’t produce elite players. Thus, no resources directed that way.
'Right people in right roles': QRU break silence on RA's reform hopes, back review into Wallabies' RWC flop
Olly,
Gota tell us which one.
'Right people in right roles': QRU break silence on RA's reform hopes, back review into Wallabies' RWC flop
100%
I’m still reading articles and comments by people that seem to think that the SR franchises are rep sides. Can’t blame them too much I guess when two of them use the traditional state representative team names. Having the states own those franchise’s also locks our pro structure into a lob sided federated system.
It also causes resentment from people like old Frankie.
The pro and amateur structure in Aust rugby lacks integrity, logic, effectiveness and vision.
'Laughing at us': Wallabies legend fears doomsday scenario for Australian rugby, urges 'bold' solution
So just keep them in Premier Rugby?
Not everyone can get a Waratah’s contract.
'Laughing at us': Wallabies legend fears doomsday scenario for Australian rugby, urges 'bold' solution
Olly,
Probably works well for those schools/clubs in areas that can support a pro presence.
Not so much anyone else.
'Laughing at us': Wallabies legend fears doomsday scenario for Australian rugby, urges 'bold' solution
Scrum,
Syd and Bris Premier clubs are semi-professional now in operation.
They just need to stop referring to themselves as grassroots/amateur.
'Laughing at us': Wallabies legend fears doomsday scenario for Australian rugby, urges 'bold' solution
AndyS,
Agree that players should have something to strive toward.
In the amateur domain, it should be success with your club and then, as the highest local honour, representation of your community. These two things are the defining factors that I remember so strongly from my playing days, not pursuit of a professional contract.
I think any of our sporting codes can measure their success directly by the level of participation from those who get norhing out of it bar the joy of envolvement, at whatever level.
As for the pathway to the pro game from the eutopia I described above, also agree that it needs to be seperate, just not state based. I think it pretty much already exists in the Premier Bris/Syd comps, but needs to be another seperate entity of it’s own (i.e Australian Premier Rugby), and not affiliated to state unions. Also needs to be present wherever we have SR franchises. Easy right? Selection into a Premier Rugby club (idealy no younger than U15(ish)) would come from performance for your community as described above.
It’s some far out ideas of my own that would take an entire article to explain.
'Laughing at us': Wallabies legend fears doomsday scenario for Australian rugby, urges 'bold' solution
And a lot of Sydney based players have come from elsewhere.
Where are we going with this?
If you’re insinuating that the only reason the Brumbies succeeded was due to their players coming from Sydney, you’d have to wonder why the Warratah’s haven’t shared the same level of success.
'Laughing at us': Wallabies legend fears doomsday scenario for Australian rugby, urges 'bold' solution
Definitely can be. Auckland did it when they broke up into Auckland, North Harbour and North Land. Making the game more relevant in all 3 of the new provinces.
I dream that QLD and NSW have the gumption and vision.
'Laughing at us': Wallabies legend fears doomsday scenario for Australian rugby, urges 'bold' solution
Dusty 10,
I think ACT Rugby 1990 – 2020 is a good example of how a well run body of a certain population (500K?) with a certain number of clubs/school can succeed.
QLD and NSW RU have 10 times the crucial resources (people, clubs and schools), but this will work against them as stove-piping, in-fighting, politics and self interest surfaces in a body that size. Completely un-manageable and inefficient.
It will never happen, but the Brisbane and Sydney RU need to be broken up into Country District equivalents (which is what the ACT used to be) and be separated from the professional side of the game which has dragged the amateur side into irrelevance. These, along with the current Country Districts and other states should be the provinces (about 32 of them all up) that make up the Australian Rugby Union.
'Laughing at us': Wallabies legend fears doomsday scenario for Australian rugby, urges 'bold' solution
I forgot participation on the amateur side! Nice pick up.
Exclusive: 'Seismic shift' as Waratahs to hand over keys to RA in boost to reform push - others to follow
Actually, clear delineation between the amateur and professional entities would be good for the amateur side in Aus.
Professionalism’s envolvment has eroded the relevance of the amateur game as it’s priorities are high performance, elite competitions, pathways, financial bottem lines and entertainment.
The amateur side (historicaly) revolves around rugby values, communities and love of the game.
They are different things and only hinder, not promote each other if attempting to co-exist within the sam organisation (club, district etc).
Exclusive: 'Seismic shift' as Waratahs to hand over keys to RA in boost to reform push - others to follow
?
Because the current structure and systems of Aust Rugby are super fractured. I.e. 5 Franchises and 8 states/territories doing things there own way and scrapping over scant resources.
RA currently has minimal control over anything.
Exclusive: 'Seismic shift' as Waratahs to hand over keys to RA in boost to reform push - others to follow
“Before any solution can be contemplated, stakeholders must first agree on which rugby is professional – and make it the best it can be – and which rugby is amateur. Clarity.
Anything half-baked, in between, is fraught with danger. Because it uses up money that could be better used elsewhere, and because it fills people with false hope that this is a way forward.”
This is step one!
Until we do this, everyone will keep referring to SR as clubs, tossing up ideas of South Aust and Tassi joining SR, referring to Premier Rugby as grass roots, arguing about what a 3rd tier should look like and showing scant interest in learning what the game looks like outside of their own back yard.
It also enables our professional entities to install their preferred pathways in and around our amateur bodies. Some people think this a good thing where I think it is one of the big reasons the amateur game is becoming less relevant.
The second step is to piss the federated structure off. How anyone thinks having two states made up of and controlling 80% of the resources is manageable makes my head spin.
This comment is interesting as well;
“But for this to happen, it requires a level of trust in Rugby Australia, that it has the capability and genuine intent to work with all stakeholders in the best interests of the game.”
It’s probably accurate. But why do the QLD and NSW (each made up of several country districts, large suburban unions and Premier Rugby) boards expect all of their substituent bodies trust them?
The Wrap: Wallabies scrape a win but the team, and the code, have entered Chinese water torture territory
Keggy,
“Maybe the quality desire and talent of players in the current comps are not as good to represent Australia as previously.”
I think it’s at least on par. The difference is there simply wasn’t a regular season SR for players to be selected for national teams before 1995.
A disastrous decline: 10 Years since the Waratahs won the Super Rugby title and reasons behind growing list of problems