anyone who starts their argument with ad hominem is not worth listening to. Suggest trying again but in good faith this time.

Spellchecks are free Jacko, if you are going to be an old man railing at clouds you may as well spell properly.

Only because sheep dont come in orange 😂 😂

also wood love a good whine about other people whining! 😁

don’t worry fellas I got this one
“aussies” (pejorative) don’t want to “borrow All Blacks” they would rather contend that they want a competition that makes money and gains market share against other codes. Thinking product first, and national teams second. Your priorities are the other way. Also if you think that players from Fiji operate in a bubble, I think you are a bit misinformed/ignorant of the facts. Mick Byrne is the coach, he is Australian. Many Fijian/Islander players have played in NZ/AU rugby or have lived in either nation. Multiple Drua players currently rostered received scholarships to play in NZ (mostly) /AU during their school years and have done just that.
The statement they “develop their own players from their own sport” is only true in your head. NZ + AU and pacific islanders are joined at the hip in more ways than one. Not very globalist of you.

correction that Doshi bloke isn’t a doctor.

There is also mention of hospitalisation and death in the study analysis but it doesn’t factor into the 95% efficacy stat and because the sample size is so low its essentially no factor until you get raw data.

Love it LS Greg, completely agree and believe if anyone rationally looks at the data it shows a strong domestic competition that feeds our best two teams worth of players into a TT tournament to get exposure against the Kiwis is optimal in regards to actually creating a viable rugby product in Aus. On a seperate note I think we also forget how difficult it is to secure future talent in competition with the other codes here in Aus. If a young gun has options to play NRL/AFL/Cricket/Union let’s say, who here thinks that they would choose SRTT or the old SR over any of those competitions (if they had choices) Less fans, less money, more losses, culture of failure, perennial whipping boys. Why tf would they want to play in that comp if they have choices? What does Aussie Union have on those codes that can help us secure that talent? Not much. Maybe we could sell them the dream of playing for the Wallas (except now we are 7th in the world) maybe tell them one day they could make the big bucks in the EU comp? Not that that great a sell is it. It seems many don’t understand that a product has to be competitive to exist in the marketplace. Unless that product has a monopoly (Union in NZ)

Getting my comment in so that if we go a full TT route and see little to no improvement I can be a massive dick and do an obligatory I told you so. Hoping it’s not a repeat of SR 2016-2019, but I believe we will just see more of the same. An inability to compete, a one-sided competition and the continual slow death of union. I watch rugby to enjoy it, I no longer care about the jingoistic pissing contest of being number 1 when we are number 7 and falling.

🥊 Challenge accepted good sir!
Although I think my argument about him being the smallest has a bit of proof behind it. My argument about physicality is completely observational so you are right to call me out.

Good attempt to try and use ad hominem to support your argument, its always a sign of those who have good intentions. Your argument is so simplistic even a child can see through it, because it goes against the very nature of having ranking systems and different grades within sport. If someone was dumb enough to think you are right they would believe the 4th grade team would overall improve by being dropped in the first grade competition. Fortunately reality, and your perception of it, are two different things us.

I played Colts rugby for Melbourne Uni. I was a bench warmer for the backline and played as 15/10 for our Reserves team. As we had the only reserves team in the league, we played our Reserves alongside the main Colts team. So week in, week out, we got battered, bruised & dominated. I would then play off the bench for the firsts team. That was a difficult season and by the end of it I had had enough, I was tired of going into every game knowing the result. And the wins we did get, incredibly rare, came at a huge cost physically and mentally. Also, your inability to look at the performance indicators and data from the last 4 years of SR from Australian teams isn’t my problem, because you obviously haven’t or are intentionally ignoring my point. Anyone who looks at those results and sees “gradual improvement” has a few roo’s loose in the top paddock. So mate, I have both personal experience playing a grade up and I have the data from SR to back up my argument. You have nothing but wax between your ears.

I’m not sure if it is too strong a word. 10 CMS taller or 10 kg heavier is “significant” in my book. One only has to look at boxing weight divisions to understand the impact a few kilograms can have on overall power and strength. Have to agree to disagree there. Otherwise you raise a good point, it’s hard to gauge a lack of physicality other than anecdotally or through observation. The stat which refutes my point is his ability to make an incredible amount of tackles. I would be confident in saying that if we sat down and watched the last 5 tests he played that the majority of those tackles are passive, combined with his very low turnover stats as of late leads me to believe he is being out muscled. Going to look into the stats to buttress my argument even further. Also interesting to note the three 7’s you listed for Wales all have at least 5cm and 5kg on Hooper as well. Is he the smallest 7 on the international stage ?

To be honest Piru I’m not 100% sure yet. I would personally love an open competition and draft that mixed kiwi and Aussie players. I don’t believe it’s possible but it would be a great product to watch. I think the current split, or something along the lines of 70% domestic and 30% TT is good. Except we should send our top 3 teams to play their top 3 and our bottom 2 play their bottom 2. However, once again, I’m not saying a pure TT competition couldn’t work and I’d be happy to be proved wrong on this one. I just don’t think we have the ability to compete effectively week in week out against the Kiwis, and believe it’s trying to run before we can walk to a certain extent.
Edit: or maybe 60% domestic 40% TT

Yes I am saying we didn’t get better, results were poor and the data shows no statistical improvement in both performance and revenue. Once again, to repeat, I am not arguing to “shield” rather that I don’t understand how we can expect to see different results by doing more of the same, particularly when we have all this evidence to point too. Correlation is not causation, but following that model we saw a distinct correlation in diminishing returns.

Where did I say that we shouldn’t play the Kiwis at all and “hide” from them? What I am asking for is balance. Something that has been sorely missed.
Based on your contention, please explain to me why didn’t we get better from SR in 2015-2019? Results just don’t stack up with your argument.

Piru, we lost to Kiwi and Saffa teams for 5 years straight and knew exactly where we were. I noticed a very small improvement before Couf hit, but we should be under no illusions as to where Australian Rugby is.

Those who honestly believed we would be able to compete with NZ and win 50% of games after our domestic comp must have a very, very short memory. These issues existed before the domestic comp, they didn’t come about because of it.

” Aussie may have more people but it really doesnt have more Rugby Fans. ” I never said it did. I said there is much more potential for growth in the Aussie Market than the Kiwi Market.

” SRAus may have been a “success” for one year, but that was more due to novelty factor” – that’s a big statement to make with little to no extrapolation as to why you believe that to be the case.

“It is clearly has less entertainment factor than the NRL and AFL. And will soon be seen for the third rate comp it is”
Is that why for the first time in 5 years Rugby Union in Aus had relative commercial success, put bums on seats and actually improved interest in Union within the domestic sporting market? The numbers speak for themselves mate, just because you fail to do your research doesn’t mean my point is invalid.

As to every single other question you listed below – such as this gem
“Then what happens when RA cant compete with overseas money for their best players? ” –
And this little beauty “Internationals will have to be played exclusively with overseas talent” (get out from whatever rock you are hiding under, this is already happening and being debated hotly at the moment regarding Giteau’s law and SA overseas players selection)

All of your hypotheticals are ALREADY happening under this system. You just listed off every single negative outcome that we saw due to the failed previous competition that was Super Rugby and then attributed it to a future competition with little to no evidence, data or even argument to back up your claims. Also, listing rhetorical questions one after another is not an effective way to have a good faith debate about a particular topic. I suggest researching the Socratic method for next time.

Appreciate your input.

Kremer absolutely manhandled Hooper during the Argentina tour! He was also very agile for his height + weight. It definitely left an impression on me Francisco.

Thanks for the articles Nicholas. Curry and Underhill both have 5cm and at least 5kg on Hooper. (Curry has 10kg on him).
Sam and Ardie both have 10cm on Hooper and are slightly heavier. Ardie in particular is known for breaking the first tackle (at least) and winning the physical contest, which is not something Hooper has been known to do as of late.
To me, in aggregate, this makes Hooper the smallest player of all of them.
McReight has 4cm on Hooper so can definitely put on 5kg and then at least he could size up Underhill. The players you mentioned might not be Kremer huge, but all have a significant height or weight advantage over both Hooper and McReight.

Is it just me or does Fraser McReight seem a bit undersized to be an international 7 at this time?

1.84 CM and 100kg – McReight
1.82 CM and 101kg – Hooper

One of my main observations on Hooper pf late is that he is not winning the physical contest. He has an incredible ticker and work-rate. But he makes a lot of passive tackles and doesn’t often win the tackle contest. (he does make a shitload of tackles though, but if most of them are going backwards that stat doesn’t mean as much)

As an example when we played Argentina they generally used Kremer as a 7 and he is 2m and 115kg. Marc Wilson is 1.91 and 112kg. The NZ loose forwards are about the same weight but 10cm taller on average.

I guess this is the core of our differences Jacko.

Rugby in Aus is so close to death, and was brought so close to the brink by SR from 2015-2019 that I no longer care about competing for the spot of number 1 or beating the Kiwis. I don’t want SR to be a feeder comp to national teams. I just want to enjoy Aussie rugby and for the code to survive in Australia. Which is why I want 70% domestic 30% TT next year. This is survival mode for us. We need to figure out how to keep Aussie fans and win new ones and make the rugby entertaining again. And while you might think of us as “sore losers”, try walking a mile in our shoes as fans and Australian Rugby supporters. I have nothing against Kiwis and hope to travel NZ one day as the people seem lovely, but at this stage I would rather just enjoy Aussie rugby and tell you all to leave us the fuck alone, cuz playing you blokes week in week out for the past 5 years has done nothing to improve Aussie rugby, just demoralize it.

in the long run Jacko, the Aussie domestic would make more money. NZ market is tapped out, its overall economic growth is poor (regardless of what the pollies might push out) and whether you like it or not you are directly welded by the hip to the Aussie market, essentially NZ is just another state of Australia from an economic point of view. Particularly when you think about all the money that flows out of our market from NZ workers in Aus back into Kiwi market. Where else can rugby grow in Oceania? the answer is Australia. And a competitive /entertaining code, whether that be domestic or an open draft system, would revitalize the product and I believe we could actually begin to compete with AFL/League in a major way. Rugby has a lot to offer, but you aren’t going to win any new fans if you know the results each week (which are very predictable when aussies play the Kiwis) . Commercial success of SRAU supports this theory and i’m yet to see any data points/arguments that tell me otherwise.

I understand its hard to study history. Reading can be hard. But those who don’t are doomed to repeat it.

When you can explain to me why Australian rugby didn’t improve by playing “NZ more” through the last 5 years of international SR, then we can all take you seriously.

It seems to me that there are two types of supports. One set understands the commercial aspect of rugby and what it takes to build a product, and the flow on effects of having a financially viable product brings. The other side just wants to be the best at Rugby, and believes that to do so you need to play the best week in week out, regardless of the impact it might have on that product and its financial viability. Top League and Japanese rugby performance is an excellent example. They have improved drastically by creating a financially competitive, entertaining and viable domestic product. This has allowed them to spend more money in bringing in Rugby IP and talent that has improved their game dramatically. The financially unviability of our product is acting as a talent/braindrain and the other global markets and they are taking full advantage.

Completely agree Greg. Baffles me that people are so quick to forget the steady decline of performance and interest in Australian rugby particularly during the more recent seasons of 2015-2019 SR.

The numbers speak for themselves. I would argue that if we continue with a full TT 5 AU vs 5 NZ teams next year and into the future in the mold of previous SR competitions Rugby in Australia will continue its slow, suffocating death. Just like everyone else, I want us to be able to compete with NZ. However, it baffles me that people cant seem to wrap their head around the variety of reasons its just not possible at this time, with our code being in the situation its in.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”

Someone will have to tell me how having a TT competition next year would not give us the same results of SR before the couf hit us and WHY they believe that to be so before I am convinced.