By The Crowd
January 25th 2008 @ 4:31pm
Loading ...Football codes crowd attendance – AFL leads the way
I have listed in the table below the average crowds for all teams, in all football codes. At the end of the table are the code averages.
You can each draw you own conclusions. But the table clearly shows the AFL rules-all in terms of crowd attendance, with only the Brisbane Broncos topping their spectator averages.
Super 14 only played 23 games in Australia with the second highest average. The ARC figures…well, they speak for themselves.
Looking at the Super 14 and A-League averages, suggests to me that the ARC was causing many sponsors to look at the numbers and ask what was going on, which was a big part of its cancellation. Further given union’s crowd averages at Super 14, if I were in charge, I’d be calling for a second round.
The A-League figures do not include the finals and, after the finals crowds are added, will more than likely equal the NRL. Interestingly, apart from Perth Glory all A-League clubs pulled larger crowds than a number of NRL teams. In fact many Sydney teams did not do that well, also head to head Newcastle Knights V Newcastle Jets is very close. Melbourne Storm won the grand final, but the Melbourne Victory, in a very poor season, had about two and a half times the crowd.
AFL I believe will struggle to hold the level of support it gets in Melbourne as other sports and more media gets into the Melbourne market – which until very recently was almost the exclusive domain of the Melbourne ALF media mafia.
When the A-League expands and is combined with Asia, over a 27 round season, it is possible a 10 team, 27 round A-League, when added to Asian Champion league matches, could out-draw the NRL crowd figures.
My overall interpretation is the A-League is changing the way people think about sport in Australia. If the A-League continues to grow, its revenue will increase providing all that goes with increasing funds, additionally influence is also growing at government levels given Asia and Women’s league.
What this all means, I’m not sure. But as I have often said, let facts be your friend. These are facts – so how do we interpret them?
Australian Football Codes Crowd Attendance Figures, 2007
Note: you can also view the data here.
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John said | January 25th 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
An excellent analysis, Midfielder. Where did you get the data from?
Two things surprise me on this. 1, that the A-League has such good crowds, so early. And 2, that Rugby League is so low on the list (ostensibly it’s a national game).
If you included the international matches, then I think it’d show rugby and soccer better ranked compared with AFL and League.
Interesting…
cosmos forever said | January 25th 2008 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
great analysis midfielder. A table I would also like to see is winter v summer sport (rather than football code v football code). I reckon that would also show that the A-League is Ausralia’s premier summer code in terms of percentages (judging from what I’ve seen of domestic cricket and even test 3rd – 5th day attendances)…
brad said | January 25th 2008 @ 6:13pm | Report comment
Whats amazing about AFL is that they have the most games and the highest Average. One would expect the Super 14 to have the highest average because they have the least games.
It would be great to see a world wide stats report like that. Probably Soccer, American footbal, Rugby , Cricket in that order?
DJ of Sydney said | January 25th 2008 @ 6:59pm | Report comment
You can get the data from Wikipedia. I think the article is 2007 Australian football code crowds.
I totally agree that Melbourne was dominated by Australian Football media, but it was because it was the only sport in town, and any other sport which dared to go up against it would be crushed. However i think that as sports have branched out more, they can afford to lose money in the short run in order to gain in the long run. The Swans are probably the best example of this, who struggled in the league dominated Sydney, and in the past three years have stabilised into a long term club, with the possibility of a second by 2015.
However with Australian Football so strong in Melbourne, i dont think a slight loss of revenue will worry them too much.
By the way you spelt AFL as ALF.
I also agree that the A-league has changed the way sport in Australia is thought of. For a while the AFL and CA have both been content to cement their positions in each of their places before moving onto the next. The short run success of the A-league has forced the AFL and CA to look at how they can interest the public more, a huge positive for both these sports. The AFL has shifted its focus back to Australia slightly more, while continuing international development of the code and of the AFL brand.
As for the ARC, the crowds were low as people knew that Super 14 is the superior competition.
NB: The AFL doesnt have finals added to its figures in this table either, neither does NRL. You can see even more comparison below.
Percentage growths of some of the competitions:
AFL crowds totalled 7,050,945. This is 674,711 more than 2006 (a increase of 9.57%) after finals
NRL crowds totalled 3,331,994. This is 216,293 more than 2006 (a increase of 6.49%) after finals
a – league crowds totalled 1,227,273. This is 142,094 more than 2006 (a increase of 13.1%) before finals
Super 14 (a decrease of 10.0%) no finals in Aust
Stoffy said | January 25th 2008 @ 7:37pm | Report comment
Ditto John, cosmos forever and DJ of Sydney.
Very interesting read, AFL with know doubt will always remain the chart topper, but interesting to see some A-league teams rise above those of the NRL. Mind you out of 7 states In Australai only 4 have teams in the NRL whereas in A-league only Canberra and Tasmania dont participate.
Great to read, cheers Midfielder
MIdfielder said | January 25th 2008 @ 8:17pm | Report comment
DJ, the figures for AFL, NRL, S14 & ARC, are 2007, A-League is 2007 / 2008. You are also correct that no final figures are included excpt for the ARC.
Martin said | January 25th 2008 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
Outstanding, im not suprised one little bit! Considering ALF is played in every state in Australia and is the premier sport nataionaly wide. I do disagree that AFL will lose suport in Melbourne, because AFL was born in the sporting capital of the world and considering that 10 out of 16 teams are situated there i find it hard to belive.
Outstanding infomation, Great work!
MIdfielder said | January 26th 2008 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Rugby Union has a number of leads coming out of these figures. First the S14 compared to the other codes play very few matches, but draw large crowds. The ARC drew very poor crowds.
What is wrong with have two rounds of the S14 at say $10.00 per person at the matches it would generate close to and extra five million for the S14 teams, as I indicated earlier to me makes a lot of sense.
The ARC model averages were very poor and would have had sponsors looking at union and the administration, asking obvious questions about the marketability of union outside Tri Nation & S14. So the next comp needs to have a much higher average or union itself could suffer. That is one of the reasons I would develop a national youth league similar to the NRL model as if crowds did not attend …. Why because it is a youth league.
One intriguing figure with the ARC was that Perth & Melbourne had the largest following and Eastern Sydney the smallest. Given Eastern Sydney is union’s heart land all those stories pertaining to political infighting have some merit, which also needs to be sorted out before the next comp.
Wingback said | January 26th 2008 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Brillant, analysis as a Rugby follower both codes, the rise of the A-League is a big surprise.
DJ I assume CA means Cricket Australia, why would cricket be worried about soccer as there is no real comprasssion.
Midfielder do you have these details for any other seasons? If so could you put them up.
My take on these figures is from a rugby prespective the S14 is great but to short I know NZ has its competitions, but is there some way to increase S14 matches. NRL steady as she goes and out rates all others on the box when regional Austrlia is imcluded but crowd wise when compared to those AFL crowd numbers and the income that the extra 3.5 million at matches would gernate is massive and both the NRL needs to lift its game and maybe not play so much at Homebush but back at heart land gounds. I feel maybe league & union should get together forget past differences as these AFL figures when compared give one a scare and if Midfielder is correct about the A-League expanding to 10 teams then we need to act sooner rather than latter.
Midfielder said | January 27th 2008 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
I only did the analysis for the season.
Your comments about union & league, I am not sure it would work there is to much bad past history.
I also think the games are to different.
matta said | January 29th 2008 @ 6:13pm | Report comment
might have been said above but remember that the AFL is the top comp for its particular sport – so is the the NRL but super 14 and A-League are really 2nd tier comps.
matta said | January 29th 2008 @ 6:17pm | Report comment
Midfielder – the ARC was a mostly SEMI pro comp that can only be compared to lets say The SANFL, VFL or the NSWRL – how many people turn up to a West Adelaide V Glenelg game or a Newton V who ever game.
Good stats but you need to compare apples with apples.
W Warambeal said | January 29th 2008 @ 10:27pm | Report comment
Interesting – but 90% of the AFL still come from the southern states.
BTW there’s an error in the games played for the NRL & AFL on the table. The NRL iwas played over 25 rounds (192 games) & the AFL was played over 22 (176 games) rounds.
Also if you look at the aggregate crowd numbers the soccer doesn’t look to flash (the union even worse) as it is still more than 2 million behind RL. In fact add the TV rating (FTA & Pay) into the equation
RL is doing OK in its heartland states.
have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Australian_football_code_crowds
& here:
Top 50 Programs 2007 – Combined
http://www.thinktv.com.au//Media/Stats_&_Graphs/Top_Programs/Top_50_Programs_2007_Survey8.pdf
1 RUGBY LEAGUE GRAND FINAL 3,748
2 TENNIS: 2007 AUST OPEN – MEN’S FINAL 3,399
3 AFL FINALS 2007: GRAND FINAL GEELONG V PORT ADELAIDE 3,320
4 TWENTY/20 MATCH – AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND 3,319
5 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE QLD V NSW 1ST – MATCH 3,251
6 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE NSW V QLD 2ND – MATCH 3,239
7 TENNIS: 2007 AUST OPEN – MEN’S FINAL PRESENTATION 3,172
8 THE 2007 GRAND FINAL WRAP UP 3,113
9 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE QLD V NSW 3RD – MATCH 2,970
10 DANCING WITH THE STARS 6 – GRAND FINAL 2,963
11 KATH & KIM 2,863
12 THE BIGGEST LOSER – FINALE 2,762
13 ONE DAY CRICKET – AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND – GAME 1 SESSION 2 2,683
14 ONE DAY CRICKET – AUSTRALIA V NEW ZEALAND – GAME 5 SESSION 2 2,673
15 THE FORCE – BEHIND THE LINE-MON 2,633
16 ONE DAY CRICKET – AUSTRALIA V NEW ZEALAND – GAME 11 SESSION 2 2,585
17 DANCING WITH THE STARS 7 2,554
18 BORDER SECURITY – AUSTRALIA’S FRONT LINE 2,546
19 DANCING WITH THE STARS 6 2,519
20 BIG BROTHER – THE WINNER ANNOUNCED 2,518
21 RUGBY LEAGUE GRAND FINAL ENTERTAINMENT 2,497
22 THANK GOD YOU’RE HERE 3 2,481
23 THE 2007 GRAND FINAL PRE MATCH 2,471
24 RSPCA ANIMAL RESCUE 2,451
25 OCEAN’S DEADLIEST 2,438
26 MEDICAL EMERGENCY 2,434
27 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE QLD V NSW 1ST – PRE MATCH 2,356
28 ONE DAY CRICKET – AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND – 1ST FINAL SESSION 2 2,293
29 49TH ANNUAL TV WEEK LOGIE AWARDS 2,282
30 ONE DAY CRICKET – AUSTRALIA V NEW ZEALAND – GAME 8 SESSION 1 2,280
31 AFL: PRELIMINARY FINAL 1: GEELONG V COLLINGWOOD 2,268
32 IT TAKES TWO 2,236
33 ONE DAY CRICKET – AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND – 2ND FINAL SESSION 2 2,233
34 BIONIC WOMAN 2,218
35 CITY HOMICIDE 2,218
36 SEA PATROL 2,212
37 BURKES BACKYARD SPRING SPECIAL 2,180
38 ONE DAY CRICKET – AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND – GAME 4 SESSION 2 2,175
39 TV WEEK LOGIE AWARDS ARRIVALS 2,172
40 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE QLD V NSW 1ST – POST MATCH 2,163
41 DANCING WITH THE STARS 6: THE FINAL COUNTDOWN 2,161
42 60 MINUTES 2,158
43 ONE DAY CRICKET – AUSTRALIA V NEW ZEALAND – GAME 2 SESSION 2 2,146
44 HOUSE 4 2,131
45 AUSTRALIAN IDOL – FINAL 24 2,123
46 BIG BROTHER – FINALE NIGHT 2,119
47 NATIONAL NEWS SUNDAY 2,119
48 ONE DAY CRICKET – AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND – 2ND FINAL SESSION 1 2,118
49 SHREK 2 2,116
50 AUSTRALIAN IDOL – AUDITION 1 2,110
Midfielder said | January 30th 2008 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
W Warambeal I beg to differ I was not quoting crowd numbers just averages and the crowd numbers for were team and code were also published. Also given both union and A-League are not on free to air and only on Fox then no judgement can be made.
The sole purpose of the report was to highlight crowd averages and you will note I before John O’Neil said go for two rounds of the S14 as 23 games home games I agree is hard compared to either the NRL or ARL.
I understand the NRL playes only 20 rounds not the 25 you said. So 20 rounds at 8 teams is 160 (not the 192 you quote) yes I have left off 2 NRL matches am could not be bothered trying to find out which ones.
But the question was what do you make of the figures and I agree the AFL is in the Southern States the NRL in mainly NSW & OLD but everbody knew that already .well at least I think they did.
Anway W Warambeal moving on from what the above do these figures mean as you see it, do you seen the AFL spreading its wings, S14 needing to expand, A-League a fly by night, this was the purpose of my article.
Michael C said | January 31st 2008 @ 10:18am | Report comment
To clarify.
NRL 25 Rounds fixtured.
However there were byes in rounds 6, 10, 13 and 16. (see http://www.abc.net.au/rugbyleague/scores/2007/nrl/default.htm)
Therefore, 192 games. 3.024 million, avg 15,750, and 9 finals, ave 34,217
compared to 2006
180 games, 2.808 million, avg 15,601, and 9 finals, ave 34,163.
so, 12 extra games got them over the line. The average increase in patronage was 149 people per game, about a 1% increase. (better than going backwards). However, 2005 saw per game avg of 16, 468, so, an element of a step back. (source http://stats.rleague.com/rl/crowds/summary.html)
AFL, since 1995 has been 22 * 8 = 176, plus 9 finals.
1995, 176 : 5.117 million avg 29,078, plus 9 finals avg 66,102
2006, 176: 6.204 million, avg 35,250, plus 9 finals avg 59,131
2007, 176: 6.475 million, avg 36,793, plus 9 finals avg 63,936 – - – up 4.3% on previous year for H&A matches alone. Finals is always a function of number in Melb, high drawing teams, interstate teams travelling to Melb etc (i.e. you don’t want a Nth Melb hosting Port Power final at Telstra Dome!!!)
Note, VFL crowd avg sub 20K, you need to go to 1953, and 1949 for a 16K figure. Does that show where the Sydney based NRL clubs are at? Becuase, in reality, the 3 QLD teams all have pretty decent figures, for 2007, NQC 19.7K, GCT 22.7K and BBs 34K. In fact, the nearer to Sydney you get, the nearer the team averages are around 14K, 12K and 11K.
At any rate,
I believe certain factors come into it:
Club Membership in AFL is huge.
Venues – AFL ground rationalisation, no longer using old suburban grounds that just aren’t up to scratch. Perhaps contracted too much, in Melb, with in reality only 2 venues, could probably do with a niche boutique venue, if only Kardinia Park were actually 50 minutes closer!
Culture of member based clubs vs ‘franchises’, and privately/corporately owned clubs and or competitions.
And also note that the VFL in MElb for example ‘unified’ the population, whereas in Sydney there was a socio-geographic splitting between RL and RU. Heck, ever since 1863 in London when Rugyb and Soccer split rather than compromise and go forth with a united set of rules, after Melb have managed just that 4 years earlier. So, if ever people want to understand the ’spirit of the game’ of Aust Footy, it’s a bit around compromise, inclusion, unity. And, for those who rubbish the International Rules vs the Irish, in a sense, these games actually perfectly exhibit the spirit of working out a way to just have a game TOGETHER instead of apart.
Midfielder said | January 31st 2008 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Michael C great site references,
Your comprassion between the AFL & NRL is interesting essentially AFL up 4.3% and the NRL holding ground, A-league up, Union going down.
What does it all mean, maybe basketball will struggle a fall in union numbers, maybe people are starting to have a team in more than one code.
What I do think the figures show is the A-League has changed way football is seen by the general public and the union needs to expand the number of games in the S14.
Michael C said | February 1st 2008 @ 9:15am | Report comment
cheers Midfielder,
The really interesting thing about Australia:
It’s the most competitive sporting MARKET in the world, especially for ‘FOOTBALL’ codes, and as a per-capita measure.
It’s probably fair to figure that one of the ‘big 4′ footy codes won’t last the distance. Presently Union is looking decidedly shakey – and, realistically,how can 2 Rugby codes be supported when their power base is NSW and QLD.
The A-League is interesting.
Effectively a NSW invitational league at present. 3 teams in NSW, 1 only in 4 other states plus token NZ. Likely expansion sides seem to be Townsville, Gold Coast, Canberra and or Wollongong. Does that put it in greater competition with the AFL? Certainly not. Melbourne and Victoria have shown that the AFL can have it’s best crowd season ever, in the same season in which MVFC win a GF and hit 22K membership, and also the same year that Storm win a GF.
The real frontline of this war is Sydney and NSW. However, you have to ask questions around the wisdom of too many ‘regional’ teams. The AFL has been careful not to place teams in Tassie or Canberra. However, the A-League has ’boutique’ teams in Gosford and Newcastle, and there’s questions around how long until a 2nd Melb or Syd team might come in. The regionals limit growth WHERE an even competition is desired. The A-League probably one day will need to cut free MVFC, SFC and maybe Roar, to go into a soccer equivalent of the Super 14, but in Asia. The A-League will just be a niche development league aimed at tieing up local talent to Australian repesentation. Basketball has certainly gone nowhere, but also, has it’s major ‘representation’ on the same patch that soccer and rugby are fighting hard for.
Crowds wise, A-League has gone ahead year on year. The major reason V2 vs V1 was MVFC moving to Telstra Dome. With 1 extra game MVFC provided +160K bums on seats. Meanwhile SFC with 1 less game provided 33K less bums on seats. And from V2 to V3, the major impact has come from Auckland team being replaced by the Wellington team – providing +83K BoS vs V2. Match avg from ~3K to ~11.7K. Perth has gone backwards each year, Adelaide struggled this year other than for the New Years weekend match at Adelaide Oval that drew 25K (they lost 1-3, wonder how many will come back).
SFC was looking very average this year until the Rnd 21 33K vs MVFC, but then a week later they struggled to 23K for a home final!! And Becksmania was supposed to boost SFC.
I gather not all soccer fans are happily jumping on the bandwagon of privately owned single city franchise teams that effectively ‘force’ you to follow them. Certainly in MElb, many fans are not happy with the corporate Telstra Dome venue either. From an AFL perspective, Telstra Dome is my least favourite venue – it’s just cold, and soulless. The A-League is still competiting against the EPL, Serie-A etc, and actually competes with the full strength euro-socceroos – because they actually reflect poorly ON the A-League. However, in Gosford and Newcastle the local sides HAVE connected with the community. That’s actually a bigger challenge in Melb and Sydney. However, as long as the A-League is on in summer, then, is 20K every 2 weeks in Melb and Sydney really that big a success? And until the 2nd tier comp kicks in, and players missing out get to have a proper run and so maybe the standard might improve, but the costs initially will be higher and the ability for new regional teams to afford setting up and surviving the first 5 years will be more difficult – - – basically, still some water to pass under that bridge.
Super 14s – I know a lot of people who should know about Super 14s but don’t. Probably just that in Victoria they effectively don’t exist. Even for many expat Kiwis, I’m married into one such family. But RU has huge issues with money, with grass roots and talent pathways (the ARC was needed but never had a hope). And the ARU has too much competition from RL both here and abroad that inflates the ARL wages and puts inflationary pressure on the ARU wages. The ARU will soon become the poor cousin of SANZAR – already, their TV rights are the poor cousin. Can they work ‘mid-top down’. Must they just bight the bullet and put a team in Melbourne, can they afford not to. But, just another team in Melbourne, like the Rebels and STorm – with not one single Victorian. At least in the AFL, at any given time there’s about 20-30 NSW and similar number QLD kids running around, and many recent greats of the game are from those ‘non-footy’ states. Rugby can’t claim the same about Vic, SA or WA in anywhere like the same degree.
Out of everything from above – note that AFL has been successfully running ‘elite’ talent identification programs and learning how to ‘convert’ players from varying backgrounds to AFL. A sporting CV that contains a bit of soccer, a bit of basketball, maybe some rugby – can be converted far more easily to AFL than especially back to Soccer. Simply because Soccer, a bit like golf or tennis is a narrow skill band that needs to be developed from a young age. Aust Footy is a broad based skills package that allows players to overcome deficiencies in certain areas and still be contributors at the highest level – - – and that’s part of it too, no knows if the standard is down over all – because we aren’t worried about losing a WC trophy, an Ashes urn or a Bledisloe Cup. By the way – also note the other day in NZ, the Hurricanes Super 14 boys played the local Wellington Tigers Aust footy team in a practice match – the Tigers won. But – in NZ, more and more Rugby boys are playing footy in the off season – as, it’s better than cricket for fitness and especially skills. I think a fellow called Nick Evans in the All Blacks played a couple of seasons in Auckland AFL, and is recognised for his kicking game. AFL is in an interesting international growth phase that the AFL itself hasn’t really had much to do with, other than coming on board in South Africa. Keep an eye in Aug/Sep on the International Cup in Melbourne – no ex-pats and more rigid qualification criteria than the Rugby or Soccer World Cups – i.e. you can’t play for a country just because your parents were born there. I think this growth phase is evidence of the power of the internet in connecting these teams and ‘leagues’ and allowing ’support’ and ‘guidance’ to be delivered immediately – irrespective of ‘main-stream’ media etc. That then is an interesting phenomena to follow whether or not AFL is your particular interest.http: This is a good website : //www.worldfootynews.com/
Midfielder said | February 1st 2008 @ 11:24am | Report comment
Michael C
Brillant analysis and the AFL international growth is interesting, is it a bunch of expats organising locals or is there a real interest, time will tell?
Your analysis of rugby is interesting and I can recall reading in a European publication that the Europeans were doing quite well,, and if Australia is struggling and wants a number of rule changes so Australian Rugby can cope, maybe it does not go down to well in France and England. So Union is at a bit of a cross roads in Australia growing internationally but struggling locally. Also in time South Aferica will struggle as the Football world cup in 2010 is having and impact and in reality union is played in the main by the white popultion and as things change in SA it will be difficult for union to maintain its presence as SA main sport. The impact it could have in Australia is to further deminish unions standing in the general media.
Football (round ball type) is also at a interesting point, the contract with fox was to long and tied up to many products and I think maybe they are hoping the new labour government will make the socceroos free to air. The other sticking point they have is the conflict of interest between Sydney with Frank Lowy as its owner and wanting the team at Moore park when every man and his dog knows it should be in the middle of Sydney. Frank has done wonders for football but his love affair with an east Sydney team is now holding back the league. Also most of the best players are in Europe is a real negative. Given all this I still think the Socceroos would rate the house down on FTA and Ch 10 & 9, would pay big money for it.
The NRL is interesting, very much in a holding pattern, not to sure I think where to go next, lossing key players to Union, owened by News limited, which means risk taking is no longer on. Very strong junior base, new youth league under way. Also when regional centres are counted as opposed to capital city only is the highest TV rating code. The future much more of the same.
AFL is the big mover & sharker ands it’s difficult to see any other code even approaching them. Their biggest weakness is it is not a media frendily game and hard to watch as much of the action is off the ball.
If I could ring Dr Who as I said earlier and go forward it would be interesting to see the changes in the codes.
In closing Michael great post mate, the best i have read on the roar, and if you have the time have a read of a post I made today in the A-league salary caps pertaining to 1955 as those 1955 mistakes are no longer being made.
Michael C said | February 1st 2008 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
The international growth is interesting
Denmark has been going almost 20 years now. And initially was mainly expats. Possible a few guys working the north sea rigs etc. There’s also been a bit of cricket there too.
However, now Denmark is well enough established. The Farum Cats in particular have good junior development happening and a relationship with Geelong. There are now Danes who’ve played 200 game careers in the DAFL.
Denmark initially allowed for a Swedish team, and now, there’s a Swedish League. Expanding out of that is the recent development in Finland and Germany.
The key is that the international matches played are retain as the domain of locals – as much as possible, and certainly the International Cup IS exclusive from ex-pats.
In the past, here and there, a team would pop it’s head up, and often, especially once that bunch of core expats moved on – then the team/club would dissolved.
What’s happening now, is that there is real expansion around ‘hubs’. And also, a development of international talent pathways. Nearest to home PNG and NZ will be via QLD, and Sth Africa is a real focus.
Northern Europe though has the benefit at least that they can play against pretty good opposition from England and Ireland.
There’s clubs in the Czech Republic, Austria, Croatia, France and Spain. The chances are now that they are less likely to fold.
Where does it go?
Well. THe main thing is that one doesn’t expect ‘professional’ leagues in most of these cases. The main chances there will be in the US, Sth Africa (pending political leadership) and perhaps Britian – in the foreseeable future.
The critical things are:
A. allow decent international competition opportunities for players to represent their countries – and, note, that it is presently the epitome of ‘amateur’ sports – - possibly a bit like what the Olympics once was but has since been hijacked.
B. allow the possibility of a young kid being given a chance in the ‘big time’. Which – means of course that for – as an example – a young kiwi rugby aspirant who discovers Aust footy as an off season sport that’s beneficial….then suddenly finds that he’s more suited to this game, and perhaps enjoys it more…..then hopefully he’ll gain the opportunity. That ball is in the court then of the AFL and clubs. They have realised they can get kids from Ireland, that’s been happening for 25 years now. The recognition now is that it’s only perhaps a matter of 5 years before kids are coming through from PNG and Sth Africa.
AFL is limited for several reasons. THe size of ovals. Good in countries with pre-existing cricket facilities. THus, the N-W province in sth Africa saw the first real step being to establish partnerships with the cricket body. In other countries, a lot of 9 or 12 a side variants come into vogue for regular comps. Especially at the local level, allows more ‘teams’ anyway for the local stuff – and then in cases the parent club ‘unites’ to play at the ‘regional’ levels. The 9 aside stuff etc makes fielding teams regularly a bit easier as well. And, I guess, when you look at Rugby with their 7’s, then, it’s not necessarily something unheard of or to be ashamed of. There’s actually a couple of regular tournaments such as Bali 9’s, and Dubai and I gather Dublin are kicking one off too.
In Scotland and England, schools are keen on it because for sports in schools, the kids already either love/hate soccer and their are established hierarchies. Here and there, a niche is developing.
Realistically, world ‘domination’/expansion has never really been in the minds of AFL administrators – and most supporters would burn down AFL house if they thought that the AFL was spending too much money OS. But – with what’s been happening, the AFL has been forced to assist and facilitate to a degree – - that’s the other interesting thing about it – this is all bottom up, not top down corporate marketing/expansion.
Ultimate goal?
Probably more that, one day, an Aust team could take on a ‘rest of the world’.
For me. I don’t really want the AFL to become ‘just another pro league’.
The saving grace no matter what though is this – Australia, and more specifically, Melbourne, IS the traditional centre of this particular sporting universe. The MCG is the ‘Wembley’, the ‘Lords’, the ‘Wimbledon’ of Aust Footy. So, even should that happen, one imagines that the AFL and the MCG would forever be the ‘home’ of the code.
unless of course people start claiming that the Melb Rules only were an amalgam of the Cambridge and Rugby rules etc, and that even the Poms can lay claim to Aust Footy – because, really, it was just a bunch of Poms who put it together…..
I wouldn’t mind NSW and QLD folk getting over the fact that the game started in Victoria, it seems silly to choose to ‘hate’ it just because it’s a Victorian ‘invention’. They don’t have to love it, but at least should not stand in it’s way – simply, for no other reason, than to allow it the best chance to continue to provide something that is unique to Australia – especially at a time when more an more people are becoming aware of Australian Football (hmmm, does that carry 2 meanings…….and thus I remind people that the AFL play by the ‘Laws of Australian Football’).
RUGBY
certainly, white dominated SA rugby is at risk, very few white families will be wanting to raise their kids in SAf at present, I know enough recent immigrants from there. But – it is ironic that in Aust the weaker international brand of Rugby is the stronger domestically.
I theorise that there are 3 levels, club, state/region, and international. IN Aust it’s virtually impossible to claim all 3 levels. Simply because each is compromised by the other. In AFL the club level is king, it killed off the state level. In RL, the SoO is king, the club comp is good, but it’s no AFL, although it always appears that Sydney folk would rather keep it as their ‘version’ of the AFL rather than submit to the AFL. At any rate, ARU is strong at International, and okay in a limited fashion at a hybrid of state/international. The FFA has a pretty good International vehicle in the socceroos – who, because not drawn – at full strength – from the HAL doesn’t really compromise the HAL other than devalue it BECAUSE it isn’t drawn from the HAL at full strenght. At present, the HAL, with a few single state teams leaves no scope for interstate competition. And perhaps needs to decide just what format it will be.
Although, of course, we are mostly familiar with National Club Comps evolved from a single state league. The HAL perhaps has the best chance in the short term to be a balanced national comp. However, presently is over focussed on NSW and seems set to continue looking at the NSW/Qld region and just retain a token presence elsewhere – - perhaps a recognition that the AFL is less vulnerable than the Rugby codes. And perhaps an indication that the war is on until someone falls down – - and at this point it’ll be one of the Rugby codes.
Would you see the day when RU effectively collapses in Aust, but, to take over the ‘vacuum’, RLwill have to merge into the RU world and therefore force a re-unification of the Rugby world?
Michael C said | February 1st 2008 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
btw –
I should point out – that in America there have been full on internationals between US and CAnada in seniors, juniors and even womens footy.
Denmark, Sweden and Germany now play an annual triangular series.
There’ve been junior internationals between the Brits and the Danes and subsequently the Swedes.
That’s the really interesting thing now – to see how the next phase goes for those more ‘developed’ nations that do have some junior development happening.
THere’s certainly more awareness now. James Bartel, the 2007 brownlow medalist and premiership player from Geelong got a whole lot more coverage on his recent trip to Denmark, Finland and Sweden than he did about 4 years ago when he was last over there. And there are now 4 AFL clubs ‘involved’ in South Africa.
And because the AFL are approaching Sth Africa from a similar perspective to how they have worked the Australian Indigenous community – they are well respected with what they are doing and getting govt assistance and sponsorship for such things as leading anti smoking campaigns and the like. The AFL have gone into sth africa into the poorer townships and the like. Certainly, there may be some cynical reasons – but essentially, these people are ignored by everybody else – there’s not much money in them.
Now – the other delicious irony, in NSW the AFL winning multicultural awards, I think they’ve figured out how to ensure they get govt grants!!, community partnerships and working with women, indigenous youth and immigrants – all sure fire grants winners – http://www.crc.nsw.gov.au/media_releases/Media_Releases/2006/aussie_rules
Midfielder said | February 1st 2008 @ 6:47pm | Report comment
The state thing is interesting, I have never cared to much about who held the shield or puma cups and got midly excited if NSW won. Sort of lost interest in the SOO. Maybe we don’t really care that much about state games much more.
But at between Sydney, Melbourne & now Brisbane, there has developed apart from club / team a certain we are the best football state. The Mariners are hoping to build using their words “Australia’s Football Centre of Excellence” . So the area and state thing is prehaps more alive in football than the other codes, more I think because football is played in reasonable numbers in each area.
Your point on grants is interesting given the new labour government has promised 32 million over four years to football for junior / youth and womems football, that is on top of what ever is paid for AIS & Olympic grants.
W Warambeal said | February 1st 2008 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
Michael C could I just play the Devil’s Advocate fora moment.
Is it true that more than half of the world’s support for the AFL (or Australian Football) is located within a 120 kilometre radius of the MCG?
Is the AFL vastly overstating their playing numbers in Queensland & NSW?
I am asking this question because I saw last year’s mid-season report stating that the AFL had 70,000 plus participants in each of the northern states.
As far as the Sydney & Newcastle regions are concerned a Sydney paper said the AFL in those region had a total of 189 junior teams. This sound like they would have about 4,000 players at most. Also a looking at the web sites of the AFLQ for Brisbane & the Cold Coast reveals they would have about 4,500 in Brisbane & 1,300 on the Gold Coast.
So if if they had double those figures the total amount of junior AFL players in the northern states would less than 20,000 making it by far the smallest football in those states. As those two states have a combined population of nearly 12 million it puts a hole in the argument that the AFL is our national football code.
W Warambeal said | February 1st 2008 @ 7:24pm | Report comment
Michael C could I just play the Devil’s Advocate for a moment.
Is it true that more than half of the world’s support for the AFL (or Australian Football) is located within a 120 kilometre radius of the MCG?
Is the AFL vastly overstating their playing numbers in Queensland & NSW?
I am asking this last question because I saw last year’s mid-season report stating that the AFL had 70,000 plus participants in each of the northern states.
As far as the Sydney & Newcastle regions are concerned a Sydney paper said the AFL in those region had a total of 189 junior teams. This sound like they would have about 4,000 players at most. Also a looking at the web sites of the AFLQ for Brisbane & the Cold Coast reveals they would have about 4,500 in Brisbane & 1,300 on the Gold Coast.
So if if they had double those figures the total amount of junior AFL players in the northern states would less than 20,000 making it by far the smallest football in those states. As those two states have a combined population of nearly 12 million it puts a hole in the argument that the AFL is our national football code.
John Ryan said | February 2nd 2008 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Michael C you would not happen to be the same Michael Clarke who is a paid(as far as I know)properganderist for the AFL by chance,if so I think you may be better saying you are a paid PR person and it is in your interest to say that the AFL is the best ect.
I dont happen to agree with you and I also think if you found 18 people in Russia who knew what AFL was you would claim and victory for AFL,your a bit like Patrick Smith and Caroline Wilson whose job it is to paint the AFL in the best light possible.
I also think you may have a tendency to I think the expression is Gild the lily a bit,if you want to push properganda in places like this kindly say you are paid to do it.
I am a Rugby League supported who lives in Perth and am not a paid hack
Midfielder said | February 2nd 2008 @ 5:50pm | Report comment
John Ryand
Your comment about Gilding the lily, is a AFL & Union ploy to smoke screen the facts.
Junior numbers are the perfect example, if you join a kick a ball day you are counted in the figures, union count both private schools and local park clubs.
However in the end it will be there problem as volunters will not see the real state of play, and think all is well. However when the piper comes to pay the toll and the substance is not there the gilding will come home to haunt them.
Union has been claiming for years increasing junior numbers when in fact they have been falling as John O’Neil said the other day.
Similarly AFL claim to be the major TV rating team when in factonly on a capital city basic, when regional Australia is counted the NRL wins.
I see two plays occuring, first the NRL & AFL, in a dog fight to be the countries leading local game (Assumng AFL for certain, and NRL more than likely) have no real international matches. AFL on top but NRL is holding firm long term hard to predict who wins my money would be on the NRL as they hold regional NSW & OLD and these areas still watch and are increasing in size, also the NRL is a much more friendly product than AFL. However it is very close but as W Warambeal posted if 80% of your supporters are within 150 Kl of Melbourne then its difficult the AFL taking over. At present on top crowd and money wise but for how long ????????????/
The second is between Football & Union for the international code. Football will win as it has a very strong junior competition and the A-League appears to becoming established and still growing thus under pinning its national team.
Midfielder said | February 2nd 2008 @ 5:55pm | Report comment
Matta
I can see your point about the ARC not being pro or as you put it the ARC was a mostly SEMI pro comp that can only be compared to lets say The SANFL, VFL or the NSWRL.
However it was not presented like that and was brodcast free to air Australia wide. As I said earlier its poor crowds and non existence ratings, did a lot to harm rugby as many spondsors raised question about its reach into the Australian market place.
Michael C said | February 4th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
John Ryan – NO, I am not the person you refered to, nor do I gain any financial or ‘contra’ reward for anything I say here or anywhere else from anyone , and certainly not from the AFL. They do a lot of silly things, like all others. However, as they aren’t in the back pocket of either Fairfax or News Ltd, it’s often interesting to see how they are portrayed by the media – - as an observation, I followed the drugs in sport story exceptionally close. I might elaborate later to illustrate my point.
A couple of things around AFL participation.
FIrstly, I’m looking forward to seeing the upcoming annual report of the AFL (unlike the FFA, you can find the last 2 Annual reports freely via the AFL.com.au website. http://afl.com.au/InternationalCupNews/News/NewsArticle/tabid/208/Default.aspx?newsId=40053
I’ve never seen the figure of 70K mentioned, I can’t comment on that.
I can’t speak much of QLD, I know there’s a reasonable AFL comp up around Cairns, and in NSW the AFL is well represented from Wagga across to Broken Hill and down to Albury in what really is pseudo-Victoria from certain perspectives.
Anyway, from the Annual REport, you can see the figures for Auskick, and the focus on the transition into junior teams.
And the listing of an increase in NSW from 36 to 356 school teams.
I refere to http://www.sportrec.qld.gov.au/junior_participation.cfm
Figures from 2003, but indicating for Australia that ‘organised sport’, organised by a club, association or school, but played out of school hours – so that’s a reasonable definition.
Of interest, the figures at the time :soccer at 22.2% of boys, Aust Footy at 13.6% and then to RL at 5.6%. And sadly, only about 35% of boys and 22% of girls were involved in organised sport.
My main point I’d ever make is around participation. I know for certain that footy kids will generally be playing something in the off season, and often basketball or indoor soccer during the footy season. There’s not really an ‘exclusive’ participation measure – and probably, nor should there be – although again, I gather that Craig Foster would want kids entirely involved in soccer from age 6 and the only non outdoor soccer activity would be indoor soccer. Good luck to him.
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4177.02005-06?OpenDocument
I saw a comparison recently where soccer really jumped ahead in the over 35s range for participation compared to AFL. That was interesting. I’ve sometimes thought about ‘retiring’ to soccer! (okay, a little partial jest there). Basically, nationally, Soccer is well ahead of AFL in over 35s and in womens. For over 15 years of age for organised sports pariticipation, for boys between 15 and 35, soccer and AFL are actually very similar – nationally. Certainly, NSW is the ‘home’ of soccer and the ABS stats present that. Certainly the AFL is starting to focus more and more on women and girls. Netball as well might feel some heat from womens soccer.
The battle for the kids is interesting. And from the ’smell the fear’ rhetoric of Simon Hill back in 2005 – - the reality is that for AFL, kids at school playing soccer prior to the age of 15 is far, far better than kids at school not playing anything. Many mums don’t want their kids playing footy until they’re a bit older……but certainly, back to the Auskick mentality on focussing on the move from Auskick to junior clubs – the battle for kids in schools to go onto to club competition and get exposure to the talent pathway is key.
ANd that brings us back to all the codes – their efficiency at talent identification and talent development. Certainly, in recent years the AFL, I know, has been relatively agressive in QLD, (which is an important pathway now and in the future to incorporate NT, PNG and perhaps NZ). And the AFL must be efficient, as, apart from the odd GAelic kid (odd in all respects???) from Ireland, the AFL clubs can’t just open the check book to kids from ‘3rd world’ countries or banana republic pacific islands…
The challenge then in Australia is for all codes to improve their efficiency….or….for everybody to increase that figure of 35.3% participation. My pet hate is the MVFC might just opt to keep buying in cheap kids from the streets of Brazil……that doesn’t do anything for Australia….however, I assume that the new 2nd tier comp will start allowing A-League clubs to develop talent rather than moth-balling their reserves as has been the case thus far because guys missing out just sit around.
The NRL new youth league seems to miss the point, most the decent kids will be in the top flight by then, and it just seems an added cost burden. I’ll watch with interest how they go about it.
There’s lessons from everywhere – for me – a bit of perspective allows me to more correctly criticise the AFL for what they blunder on, but be a bit more realistic on issues where they aren’t actually that bad, and here and there the AFL has done a good job and actually led the way…….obvious example being racial villification and participation of indigenous Australians.
Anyway, if you want, I can give you a brief run down on the drugs in footy issue to illustrate either total sports reporting incompetance or deliberate mis-representation of the facts (effectively out right lying). Certain profiled sports ‘reporters’ are either sadly incompetant or negligent – or conspiring!!!! (I never used to be a fan of conspiracy theories, but maybe, just maybe, there really has been a conspiracy to hold soccer down in this country too!).
W Warambeal said | February 5th 2008 @ 8:32pm | Report comment
Now that you are talking participation rates, how do you categorise Touch Football.
This site says they have 250,000 players.
[http://www.austouch.com.au/index.php?id=185/
“There are currently 250,000 registered Touch players with approximately 500,000 school children playing the sport. The game has also expanded over seas with International events attracting teams from New Zealand, South Africa, England, Wales, Scotland, USA, Japan, Samoa, Fiji, Cook Islands, Lebanon and Papua New Guinea amongst others..”
If you categorise the game as an abbreviated form of RL they RL would have two-thirds of a million participants
Michael C said | February 5th 2008 @ 9:13pm | Report comment
W Warambeal – and back to the original story – - I guess those touch ‘footballers’ are too busy to join ‘real clubs’ or to go watch live – - – I’ve known people who love touch but hate RL. Ah, the fickle nature of sports fringe dwellers who don’t realise the mandate that their involvement has for being presented as hard fact and statistical proof.
http://www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2000/ascpub/pdf/touch%20football%202.pdf
generally live in NSW or QLd, and generally only participate in this sport, but, if in other sports most likely to be RL, Golf, netball & Indoor cricket.
actually, as you mentioned it, I think the AFL realised a couple of years ago that that’s a market worth exploring, and have in the last couple of years kicked off ‘recfooty’. It’ll be interesting to see how the 2 balance across the particular states in say, 5 years. The AFL has never promoted a Rugby 7s style format either, and that’s happened with the 9’s tournaments in Bali, Dubai and now Dublin. Sometimes the people take the lead. I reckon there’d been a few too many ‘old school’ types running the game.
Anyway, good point, good numbers, if the avg age of the males is 34, I wonder how many might have actually played RL and just resorted to a ’safer’ version. Obviously, with the kids the plan would be to ‘convert’ into club players.
Midfielder said | February 5th 2008 @ 11:10pm | Report comment
W Warambeal I play touch and love it, many of the guys that play go to NRL matches, some like me do it for fun (Its played in the park behind me) others to keep fit. I also play in the over 35’s in football.
You raise an excellent point, W Warambealit is a massive sport and many women play it.
However the point of MC post I guess is kids, playing sport and to that end there is no arguement.
The only point I will raise with both MC & WW is that in Union & AFL, the player numbers are a tad overstated, as are all in fact but a tad more in union & AFL.
To explain in union if the same player players for his school, local park team , and then signs up to say two coaching days he is counted as four players. In union there is a close relationship between schools and local park sides so their junior numbers are very much overstated. AFL also if a kid comes to a Kick the Ball day they are counted. League and Football attempt at least to take out players who say play at school and in a local winter comp a summer indoor comp.
However I do accept that having kids play any outdoor sport or physical activity is good.
westy said | February 6th 2008 @ 2:23am | Report comment
Michael whilst I agree with some of your points you must be careful not to folow marketing hype . The NRL has always had the highest proportion of indiginous players in its ranks . For your information as at 2008 11% of current NRL are indiginous Australians more than any other football code in Australia. IN fact one NRL club has a very special relationship with aborignal Australia. League’s working class roots and culture has left it with few books about its history and poor documentation but one thing it has always done is provide a pathway I’m sure difficult at times for aboriginal sportsman to display there skill and earn income from it. The participation of indigenous Australians in Rugby League is longer and much more prominent than any other code its just that Afl markets its involvement much better and I suppose sadly there were not many prominent aboriginal communities left in Victoria. This is not a cheap shot just a reflection on our shared history. League would be much the poorer without its indiginous players . They have been some of its most famous.. You must understand it was easier for them to play League than Rugby. League may be ashamed of the recent behaviour of some of its players but can be proud despite difficulties of its histrical and continuing connection with indigenous AUSTRALIANS sECONDLY ALTHOUGH i ALSO HAVE RESERVATIONS ABOUT the NRL’s U/20 competition it should be seen as a continuation of their U/16 Harold Matthews and U/18 S.G Ball competition ( all NSW NRL clubs, ACT nrl raiders, NORTHS,BALMAIN
Michael C said | February 6th 2008 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Westy –
I wouldn’t argue that at all. Certainly the AFL marketing hype seems a better fit in Victoria, as that seems to be the main location of documented Marn Grook.
The main factor with the AFL is that they took racial vilification – why, because they had to!!, not because they pro-actively sat there and said, ‘gee, what can we do that’s good for the community’ – but, they took the responsibility.
Funny you mention 11%, the other day I saw a figure of 12% for the AFL – there might be a bit of a numbers game occurring there too.
Personally, I have reservations about a lot of the ‘2nd tier’ competitions whether AFL or NRL etc. For a variety of reasons. That’s an area where I don’t think anyone has, or can afford, the perfect model in a market like Australia. Hopefully all the codes can learn from each other and work a bit together – at a certain level – to handle out aspiring talent as best as possible.
btw – I’ve registered my kids for Auskick this year, one of the info boxes is to indicate whether they are playing for a team anywhere. I’d assume there is the capacity to report on auskick participation exclusive of other team involvement. I’ve gone mainly by the stats in the Annual report of the AFL, and there they don’t quote a total participation, they quote total auskick reigstrations and total school teams as 2 measures. I haven’t taken any notice of any thing else that may or may not be outright propaganda.
The ABS data for participation – the main thing with that is the lack of exclusivity, but the questions are always thus: (as an example) how many of the outdoor soccer people are also indoor soccer people. Is it A + B = C, or A + (B-C) = D
Midfielder said | February 6th 2008 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
MC
I respect you and the AFL, but in your circle of friends do you know someone who puts in on a bit. Pron to gild the lilly.
Can you name one indiginous AFL coach of a NT Mel as an example. Football in a very quite way without putting it out there in hype has had a national coach of the Socceroos who is indiginous, who spends a lot of time in indiginous communities. But football does not need to shout from roof tops this, also quite a number of indiginous players have played for the Socceroos and way back in the 50’s as well.
So ya MC AFL does a great job but your spin doctors appear to want to ring every drop of media they can get from it. So impressive but ………..not only AFL ……………..& ………………. not as publicly in other codes, and South Sydney in the NRL is a indiginous team, or represents the indiginous community, we all know but think in the long run it is better left unsaid it has a greater impact.
Michael C said | February 6th 2008 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
the more unsaid the less chance a perception of inverse racism. Or Sth African quota systems etc.
At present though, there’s the ‘accidental’ heroes and the govt funded programs. The problem for the FFA is they can’t really afford to be running major programs – for the time being their costs are high and revenue not high enough.
Communities from state to state are different, and certainly I wouldn’t speak on behalf of communities in NSW and QLD, all I’ve heard of is programs more so in NT and WA. Certainly a lot has centered on the Clontarf Academies (9 thru WA and NT). And a lot of the work that’s progressed there is being used to apply in Sth Africa. It’s interesting, this is the level of funding that the Fed Govt would have been threatening to withhold had the AFL and Govt really come to blows over drugs policies at the elite level.
http://www.clontarffootball.com/
and
http://www.dest.gov.au/sectors/indigenous_education/programmes_funding/programme_categories/sporting_chance_programme/round_1_academies.htm
lists school based academies which lists the AFL ones in Blacktown and Campbelltown.
On this, there’s a fair investment at the community level which A. should provide more players comming through the system, but B. is the sort of thing that should be modelled by other codes to get out to the communities in a more tangible way than player visits now and then. These academies are more aimed at keeping the kids at schools and developing community leaders of ‘fine character’ or something like that – - I gather. Anyway, the Indigenous kids footy team that tours Sth Africa is selected not specifically on footy merit, but more on character and leadership etc. Or so they say.
btw – bad news for ARU
http://news.theage.com.au/aru-blasts-as-govt-pulls-academy-funding/20080206-1qkn.html
They’ll be struggling to get their high performance facility and HoF at Ballymore.
which makes me wonder how secure my North MElb Arden ST redevelopment project is!! btw – Nrth Melb had indigenous coach, Barry Cable.
Michael C said | February 6th 2008 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
THere’s probably a level of potential for inter code loving to death of ‘minorities’ in the future. As codes might try to proove who’s more special to a particular community. The AFL though appear to have got in first on a few fronts. A better use of cash than paying dividends back to News Ltd (even if they then use those to prop up Melb Storm).
Midfielder said | February 6th 2008 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
MC you missed my point football never mentions race be it indiginous or otherwise. Football is not trying to love any minorities to death. I am not having a crack at AFL either……………simply saying others codes do similar things with indiginous groups but choose to keep the media and hype out of it.
westy said | February 6th 2008 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
Michael what is interesting about Gallop ’s push for an U/20 NRL competition is that it is a semi professional national competition where there is a national club and contractual ban on training Monday to Friday between 900am to 4.00 pm with compulsory tafe employment job training or Uni during these hours. e.g. a player 18 has signed a 2 year contract for $40000 p.a. with a carpentry apprenticeship with a club sponsor and contractual indemnity from club and sponsor to complete the carpentry apprenticeship as a paid employee if the club does not renew the contract. It is a genuine attempt to lift the education life skills and maturity of Full time League players and provide a safer career pathway for young men who do not become full time professional players.
Michael C said | February 6th 2008 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
Midfielder – ah, so, programs that have been launched with minimal fanfare and only those who do like I do in tracking the very much under the radar internationalisation of AFL have any real idea about Clontarf (at least outside of WA & NT). I think you regard these programs a little too cynically.
The hype & fanfare is the marn grook or dreamtime at the ‘G games – however, talk to Michael Long about those, he seemed to play a large part. It seems that there is a percieved need for that level of exposure as well – without publicity, then role models are only local (and that’s fine too – but there needs to be a mix).
westy – I like the notion of the NRL U/20 – effectively it’s a rookie list. The problem is going to be for these kids to have a realistic chance to break into the senior sides – but if ultimately everyone is entering via that pathway then it’s all fine.
Many people feel half the problem in the AFL is too many coaches who want to work regular hours themselves. Hopefully the AFL can actually compel the clubs to take a better approach. The NRL has recognised that this issue is probably best arranged from head office.
Midfielder said | February 6th 2008 @ 10:41pm | Report comment
MC you miss read me, I appuald the AFL, all I was saying is the others codes all do similar things to the AFL but don’t feel the need to hype it up and I do get the feeling some of the time the reporting is marketing the AFL.
The NRL has an annual week where all of NSW & OLD indiginous teams often made up teams and play a knock out comp. Many top NRL indiginous play and or coach in these games but its not sold as the NRL doing its bit for the indiginous people and developing training programs to educate disanvantaged people.
So good on the AFL for all the excellent work it is doing and big wraps due……………but the other codes also do similar it more a sports thing done in Australia.
Dave said | February 6th 2008 @ 11:44pm | Report comment
“internationalisation of AFL”
Micheal C seems like the AFL have a lot of work to do on the internationalisation of their code judging by the virtual deserted stadium in South Afica for the showpiece match between Carlton and Fremantle. Apparently many of those that did show thought it was Aussie Rugby and had no idea of what was happening. No doubt the few that attended either had free ticjkets or were expats. Never hear anything negative in the Melbourne press about this embarrassment. Yet AFL journos still continue to write negative diatribe about world football (T. Grant from HS on 5/2/08 latest example).
Michael C said | February 7th 2008 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Dave – certainly – the game was over in Pretoria. The AFL has put most work into the North West province, and only very recently have started in 3 other provinces. So, for the folk of Pretoria, certainly, it’s no surprise they had very little idea. For the time being I think it was more an excuse to get the clubs over there and put on a show that was televised live (probably to curious ratings!!) so that the locals who are having a crack at the game get to see it on their doorstep. It was only a practice match in the extreme. I gather the attendees were in many cases going to be prospective and footyWild kids who got bussed in. I don’t think the objective was at all about selling tickets to the masses.
Btw – every year the Melb media has gone negative about exhibition games at The Oval (why do they play them? just for drunken Aussies to streak on the ground?), and negative about the International Rules ‘tests’ – irrespective that each time 2 are played in Australia that we get 40K in Perth and 60K in Melb where the fans (during the October sporting doldrums) are happy just to go and not really care too much and just have fun and be entertained. Some media miss the point some times and take it all too seriously.
re. international – most the media don’t care anymore than that these teams are on ‘camps’ over there – and very, very few take seriously that there might be Sth African players coming through the system within 5 years. Remember, the general consensus is that people don’t care about the rest of the world, and a lot don’t care about NSW – and begrudge the AFL spending money outside of the footy states. If half of what is happening was reported, there’d be riots, until people realised that the development in the US, and Europe, is not contingent upon AFL funds nor built entirely around ex-pats.
I again stress the Trevor Grant is more often than not being a bit negative or at least devils advocate regarding the AFL. For me, it’s good to see him leave the AFL bashing for a minute — and re soccer, he hasn’t said anything that hasn’t been said already. It’s just that it seems soccer people will bash anyone else for having a remotely questioning opinion on FFA spin. Heck, I want a Trevor Grant, because the soccer journo’s so far just present their bubblegum profiles pieces – so I want TG to ask questions like “How come AUtd hosted MVFC twice in the first 8 rounds and MVFC had to wait until Rnd 15 to host a GF replay – wasn’t that a 50K crowd washed down the drain?”, and “How come MVFC didn’t host SFC a week earlier, on the Melb Cup weekend, even CUp eve – that was another 40-50K crowd that was missed.” – but no, it seems no one can have a crack at them. Remember, there’s a lot of sports journos who don’t get their total choice of what they have to cover – - just as assuming that a radio DJ is necessarily playing only the songs they themselves love.
Michael C said | February 7th 2008 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Midfielder –
I was having a bit of a go at you.
But – the other side of the coin, and you refer to it. The ‘full indigenous teams’. I often wonder about these, there’s as you say examples in all codes. I know in cases the ‘regular’ sides can develop some resentment because usually these indigenous teams get special treatment and funding etc and may be attracting quality players from far afield.
It starts developing a reverse discrimination – perhaps.
anyway – here was a run down of the ’sorry day’ activities culminating in the ‘dreamtime at the G’ match.
Today’s events marking Sorry Day and Dreamtime at the G last year:
11.30am Aboriginal dancers lead walk from Melbourne Town Hall to Parliament.
12.15pm Speakers including co-chairs of Reconciliation Victoria, Dr Di Sisely and Deb Walsh,
and Richard Frankland outside Parliament. Wreath laying.
1pm Federation Square. Ceremony then speakers including chairwoman of Stolen Generations Victoria, Melissa Brickell, wreath laying and dancers. Activities until 3pm.
4pm Federation Square for The Long Walk to the ‘G. Event founder and former footballer Michael Long among speakers.
5.45pm Start The Long Walk.
6pm Dreamtime @ The ‘G. Indigenous under-18s Kickstart match and dancing.
7.40pm Essendon v Richmond.
The only part of the day that is AFL specific is the game and events at the MCG – it’s not about the AFL, it’s about raising awareness etc – - however, if you want to be totally cynical, one can take the approach of “most people give to charity more to make themselves feel good – - or for the tax deduction”. Some things I prefer to take at face value, it’s sometimes hard, but sometimes it’s far, far nicer to think that the primary motivation is for people to be ‘doing good’.
Midfielder said | February 7th 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
MC
Sounds great what is being done and as I said I appuald the AFL, my only point was its more a football thing in all codes in Australian.
It’s just that it seems soccer people will bash anyone else for having a remotely questioning opinion on FFA spin, ………not so……….however many people say very untrue sterotype things and after years of often very hostile press……………people when things are starting to go well are saying …………….stop all the Bull from the past.
Hopovski said | February 7th 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
The best thing that I can draw from this table is that while the AFL remains number one it is possible for other sports to be successful. You don’t have to be the dominant sport enjoy a healthy following of a quality league.
The only one of those comps that fell short is the ARC. There should definitely be a longer S14 season, but could it stretch over 26 games plus finals? Kiwi and African fans would lap it up.
RE Western Force crowds: I think you’ll find rugby crowds will drop over here over the next few years. Fans aren’t happy with Subiaco Oval as a rugby venue – live Foxtel at home or at the pub is a much better option. Hopefully the government picks up where it left off a few years ago with the redevelopment of Perth Oval/ME Stadium, i’ll definitely get off the couch and go to games when that happens.
Anyway, Hopovski out. Off to the Force trial game at MES tonight…
westy said | February 7th 2008 @ 10:02pm | Report comment
Michael The Australian Human Rights Commission did a report on indigenous players in professional sport , In 2006 11% of all registered NRL players were indigenous whilst for the AFL it was 7% for 2005. Indigenous Australians represent 2.3% of the population. Their sporting and athletic prowess is obvious. The AFL is and should be proud of its relationship with the aboriginal community.You just have to be careful of the figures issued by the AFL as compared to independent verification.The AFL can use higher %s in relation to indigenous participation at a community level but not at the professional level. For all its lack of documentation of its history rugby league holds the honour of appointing an indigenous Australian as the first captain of any Australian national team. Despite past discrimination I am proud of the AFL and Rugby League’s relationship with indigenous Australians and remember with pleasure Long Wangadeen Farmer/ Beetson Sattler Thurston to name a very few. I and you know the Afl is the best marketed game in Australia and sometimes issues /figures are not always challenged in Melbourne . However there committment to building thier future relationship with indigenous Australia is all good as is the NRL’s recent reconciliation policy.
Midfielder said | February 7th 2008 @ 10:22pm | Report comment
Hopovski
You said The best thing that I can draw from this table is that while the AFL remains number one it is possible for other sports to be successful. You don’t have to be the dominant sport enjoy a healthy following of a quality league.
A very clever statement which hold true I wonder in recent times if union can maintain its present status and not fall a little as without a lift in S14 games, there is simply not enough quality games being played.
Westy, you said and you know the Afl is the best marketed game in Australia and sometimes issues /figures are not always challenged in Melbourne
I think this will increase over time as for a long time now the AFL has made clams without any real challenge to how correct or not the statement. See the recently 150 years of AFL when it is actually if anything 150 years of rugby. Not wishing to have a go at you MC but as I said in an earlier post the AFL do tend to gild the Lilly a tad and outside AFL towns and with the internet statements will be challenged
DJ of Sydney said | February 7th 2008 @ 11:45pm | Report comment
Whoa this seems to have turned into a football v league v union v soccer discussion board.
Maybe someone should write an article about participation levels in sport in Australia. A well researched one.
Michael C said | February 8th 2008 @ 6:37am | Report comment
First -
I’m pretty comfortable with A celebration of 150 years in Australian Football that, effectively comemorates the ‘movement’ that began – and in essence is celebrating the direct input of Thomas Wills. And while we can celebrate the 150th season of Melbourne FC, then, just as the FA claims Sheffield FC est 1857 playing by their own rules and not joining the ‘FA’ until the late 1870s…….well, it’s all perspective. At any rate, see article I posted – more aimed at thought provoking than accusing the AFL of a devious hoax.
Second -
Okay, participation – I found this:
the AFL predicted that participation rates in NSW and Queensland would rise by 80,000 players- to 218,000- by 2011.
Source: The Daily Telegraph
Which implies a figure of ~138K.
I gather a main definition of participation that I’ve seen is involvement over more than 6 wks. Hmm, from local footy, the number of people who come down to training, play 1 or 2 games and then drift away – ‘cos it’s too much like hard work.
Anyway, correct, a specific article might be appropriate.
Third -
Super 14 capacity for a 2nd round. Must be contigent upon buy in from SA and NZ. Their club competitions are much stronger than in Aust. And expansion too far might impact or be impacted by the ‘international season’. In a sense, the Wallabies franchise crowd results should be included in the table, they almost play a ‘regular season’.
4 ’stable’ codes in a country of 20ish million – a lot depends upon the flow of revenue, and no operational (football) revenue. Therefore, crowds are just an element of the bigger picture.
Wasp said | February 8th 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
Some great discussion and some well thought out arguements.
Australia is a competitive market as we only have a litlle over 20 million people and not only four football codes but cricket, netball and basketball to comptet with.
Almost every other country has Football and in Europe Handball and Basketball, Asia Footbal, Baseball with Basketball, North America is like Australia with a lot of sports fighting, but they have a very large population. Africa and South America well Football with Basketball well behind.
England and France are the exceptions in Europe with Rugby and Rugby League offering some competition.
We are unique with such a small population base and four codes that can exist and be healthy to a degree.
AFL will always be the local big game however I feel Football will become our International code as Football is simply the world game. League and Union will exist in future but as both codes lack huge international exposure, yes Union is played in a good number of countries but the vast majority are played at very basic Sunday comp levels.
Football can be a great medium for Australia to project itself to the world. The last World Cup was a great example of Australias presence world wide was lifted by the participation at this event.
My overall belief is however that all four can coexist together as I like to watch AFL and have done so since the 1960’s and also have a passion for Football and follow the Socceroos and club football at both HAL and State League.
I believe the are many people who cross over in their support.
No one sport is “better”, it is in the eyes of the supporter and a Rugby supporter will turn blue giving the reasons why Rugby iis played in Heaven. Each code is finding the market that want to follow enjoy and participate in the code as either a player or spectator.
The press will have an influence on what we read and watch on TV as they have an interest in a particular code for financial or other reason.
We should all enjoy the fact that we have such diversity that we can enjoy and take part in. We don’t have to like another code but does that make the other code any lesser, a big NO.
Revenue will be the battle field of the future, when the owners of League say well we tried we failed, goodbye, what happens to the clubs that survive on that money, or the HAL lose the TV money, what happens to these clubs. It is as someone said to be Dr Who and go into the future as witness the outcome say in 50 or 100 years from now.
I hope we still have the variety and we are all supporting Australia in whatever code we play in.
Who knows Netball could be the sport of 100 years from now. It is about to break into more mainstream with the new semi pro league, it is fast and very skillfull.
Michael C said | February 8th 2008 @ 8:46pm | Report comment
netball is good, only problem is it’s shocking on knees and ankles – they need a little more leeway on allowable steps. I’ve always thought that prospective footy players should play netball to learn a bit about using their body to gain and maintain the position of advantage.
Sports are only better towards specific ends – in their own right each has strengths and weaknesses. It’s the distinctive differences that make them …….well…..different…..which again, all logic says the 2 rugby codes must, must rationalise at some point – especially if the US really start to push their Euro Grid Iron league.
westy said | February 8th 2008 @ 10:12pm | Report comment
Michael excellent point . The only problem for Australian rugby is that unlike any other country in the world with the exception of Papua New Guinea the rugby code that dominates Australia is rugby league. THE state rugby unions find it difficult to run a chook raffle and the ARU are little better. This sounds harsh but when you talk juniors, crowds’ elite coaching 15 full time professional sides, professional referees inclusiveness it becomes overwhelming. Let the NRL and its club structure run any integrated rugby code. A lot of the leather patch rah rah’s would be left out in the cold mixing with the hoi polloi but they could always back the Roosters.
Midfielder said | February 9th 2008 @ 9:22pm | Report comment
Wasp you make a excellent point when you said ………The press will have an influence on what we read and watch on TV as they have an interest in a particular code for financial or other reason.
I could not agree and have stopped watching Ch 7, 9 & 10, as I see their sports news reporting more often as inforommercials for the sport they carry.
Michael C said | February 9th 2008 @ 10:54pm | Report comment
Ah, footy back on the tele…..from Dubai. Excellent.
And, Midfielder – when you say you reckon the AFL is very marketed etc, I can’t help but see a certain irony. Footy, a match, is amongst the lowest ’showbiz’ events you’ll see. There’s no dancing girls (Swanettes and Bluebirds got a gig back in the 80s), there’s no fireworks, no pumping music – - – it’s so very un-American. The NRL, I got sick of watching at Olympic park where the Storm boy mascot on his quad bike was do laps of the running track – as the game was going on. Basketball, hmm, I found myself annoyed at after half time when the music stopped and the dancing girls went off.
At any rate, footy is underwhelming – - for me I just miss the days of a ressies game on first (such is the cost of ground rationalisation). And, half time is still about the kids, and as many as possible getting out on the ground.
It occurred to me that watching a day match of AFL is not very different at all from watching a day match in Benalla, or Koroit or Sale. There’s no issue about not having the video ref – as that’s not done either. I could imagine that people unfamiliar with the game will be just lost, without at least one of the following : binoculars, or trannie.
Which, brings me back to the thread point – crowds. What does Gen Y want from their live sports? What experience are they after? How many of them have ipods with a am/fm receiver?
—
re the infomercial aspect, note the Sydney centricity of this too though, as, on Sunday Sunrise, Chan 7 has AFL, they’ll still so often show video highlights of 2 or so NRL games, and, will only show video footage of the Swans sat night game, and nothing from the other AFL night match. They still seem to forget A. to x-promote network content and B. that a ‘national’ program needs to cater to the national audience.
Be careful though about seeking to be upset. The media doesn’t, generally, owe any one anything. Soccer is interesting though, that the total aggregate of EPL, Socceroos and A-League is one thing, but, in general, I think it’s recognised that more people care about the highlights of Arsenal, ManU, Spurs etc than do – nationally, about Mariners, Jets and Glory. It’s still that aspect, A-League for now at least, is in competition with Soccer (globally) for tv time, for news print space, for ‘respect’ etc. In a sense, that’s the biggest battle – and, I notice only circumspect response from FFA to possibility of EPL running an ‘international’ round, which might include 2 matches in Australia (or not).
Future though will be interesting, sports might become more the domain of pay tv in general, or, extra digital channels – surely must be the domain for a Channel 9 for example to broadcast the full days play of test cricket on the alternate channel – irrespective of running over the news and ACA. And that, could yet provide a new base for bidding wars – - hope so, as, without that, then the money starts drying up.
Midfielder said | February 10th 2008 @ 12:43am | Report comment
MC I meant by well marketed I mean how stories are released TV deals, hype build around the game, etc.
Very much agree your A-League re EPL.
Re your Sunrise compare Swans and Storm in Sydney and Melbourne media.
Marc from Johannesburg said | February 10th 2008 @ 9:14pm | Report comment
I can report that attendance at the AFL game in Pretoria (Centurion actually) was 5,222. Lots and lots of school children in that number.
No press coverage before or after in any of the Johannesburg newspapers.
W Warambeal said | February 11th 2008 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Didn’t they get over 10,000 at their last game played a decade or so ago.
Michael C said | February 11th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
In 1998 – Cape Town, South Africa Newlands Cricket Ground Brisbane v. Fremantle 10,123
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_rules_football_exhibition_matches
The irony at the time, play those 2 teams anywhere else in the world other than Bris and Perth, and you’d expect no more than 5000!!
Not sure what it all says.
Differing promotional backgrounds, more important at the moment is the local development and the tour of the Boomerangs, playing 3 games against Sth African ‘rep’ team(s). Different each location, featuring ‘locals’ as much as possible. However, the N-W province is far more ‘developed’ than the subsequent other 3 ‘targetted’ provinces.
The more key indicators include new local sponsorship of $200K AUD (a lot of rand) for Freo, which they are putting straight back into Sth Af for development, and the fact that Govt is on board and also there’s govt sponsorship including as part of anti-smoking campaign. There are sectors in the govt that like that there’s no specific ethno-culture attached to the game. That’s the interesting factor – where, locally, it can be seen as a specific purpose ‘vehicle’. Who knows how far that will take it. Worth watching ‘this space’ though.
Hopovski said | February 11th 2008 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
MIDFIELDER: “Wasp you make a excellent point when you said ………The press will have an influence on what we read and watch on TV as they have an interest in a particular code for financial or other reason.
I could not agree and have stopped watching Ch 7, 9 & 10, as I see their sports news reporting more often as inforommercials for the sport they carry.”
-Same here, I can’t watch those channels unless there’s live sport on them. Fox is a bit the same, pumping up ‘their’ sports, but they cover almost everything so it all gets a run.
MICHAEL C: “Footy is so very un-American”?
-Why then do I hear the latest top 10 hits at the stadium before every game and during the breaks, ground announcers talking up the latest sponsor’s promotion at half time, people waving Hungry Jack’s (Burger King) & Member’s Equity flags instead of their team’s flag and “Johnny The Doc Docker” running around with a bloody surfboard ‘entertaining’ the kids in the crowd?
It’s bloody annoying how American all of our sports are in this country. Then again, I saw cheerleaders on tele at a Blackburn (EPL) home game the other day – maybe the whole world is turning American…
I agree with your comments about the FFA/HAL not only taking on the other sports in Aus, but the EPL/UCL as well. It will be hard for the FFA, but with more and more quality local players being produced and coming home as well as some good imports coming over I think the A-League will continue to grow.
Midfielder said | February 11th 2008 @ 11:45pm | Report comment
MC
Good crowds in South Africa, maybe you on to something. the 200K you talk about is your major problem.
The money being spent to get ready for the world cup in South Africa, ………..I don’t know even know the estimate…………all I know is it as a very big number and more than likely more than 200m.
Michael C said | February 12th 2008 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Midfielder
At this stage, most of the soccer money is being spent in the big cities and on infrastructure – it’s not doing anything for the township folk and the ‘outer’ provinces. However, certainly, money goes a long way, I gather the AFL even has about a $400K budget which buys a lot of ‘development’ officers at ground level over there. And that’s where the AFL is working a niche. And that’s all that AFL needs, a nice little niche – similar to what is developing in Europe and America. Maybe in 20 or 50 years there’ll be a fair dinkum Australia vs the Rest of the World footy game. Using the parentage rules of various World Cup events, that could be done now, but that wouldn’t mean anything.
Again though, the AFL doesn’t have to take on soccer toe to toe – we already know that kids with a soccer/gaelic/basketball background or ideally any combination of those, can quite successfully ‘convert’ to Aust Footy – - – that’s the major advantage, the conversion to a broad based skill set game is far, far easier than the other way such as to a narrow based skill set game such as soccer.
Hopovski said | February 12th 2008 @ 11:17am | Report comment
“the conversion to a broad based skill set game is far, far easier than the other way such as to a narrow based skill set game such as soccer”
Care to explain further?
Surely a conversion to a game perceived to have ‘less skills’ involved would be easier? I don’t know if you would necessarily say that Aussie Rules requires a wider range of skills than soccer either…
Michael C said | February 12th 2008 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Ah – glad you asked.
Simplest terms.
Soccer – requires exceptionally high level of foot skills, i.e. around ball trapping, control retention, and kicking of the ball. Headers play a minor role, realistically, certainly tall forwards especially will need to develop this skill. Then the general attributes of fitness, good lateral movement, spatial awareness, endurance etc. Even tackling is via the legs – which I once heard someone comment “Those soccer players all look so tidy with their socks up.”, and I’m thinking “That’s cos you need them up when you were shin guards, and if they weren’t there’d be about 4 broken legs a game.”
Soccer really only has the goalie as a clearly distinct skill set from the rest of the team. He is certainly a specialist, and, like a wicket keeper in cricket, he occupies effectively his own unique zone/role. Everybody else is interchangeable – in theory. For soccer, I gather the strategic ‘nouse’ of a position is super critical so as to not break down the structural defensive formation.
AFL – requires both foot and hand skills. Foot skills NOT to the same degree as soccer. There are players, such as my teams captain, Adam Simpson, who is a 2 time premiership player, a club captain, approaching 300 games, and, I hate, hate him being the one on the end of a play with the task of delivering by foot. He’s a highly successful footballer whose kicking game is weak. That can’t really happen in top flight soccer. I know in the A-League there are guys who a single sided, and that happens in AFL too – theoretically, they should all be good enough on their wrong foot.
The hand skills are super important, good hands, for marking, general ball control, quick hands for hand balling under pressure and in confined spaces, clean hands in dropping ball to boot to kick etc. Less well adept markers (catchers) often go to the backline and become ’spoilers’, generally enter a marking duel simply trying to punch the ball away.
Because the ball can be picked up off the ground, and there are stoppages with specifc neutral re-starts, (umpire bounce requiring a ruck duel), there are a wider variety of requirements, or areas in which individual strengths can be focussed and weaknesses dampened.
Body tackling, not to the degree of Rugby codes, but, still, adds that extra dimension. However, since the game isn’t as focussed on tackling (as rugby is, where by a team might clock up 300 tackles, in AFL, a team will clock up 300-400 ‘disposal’, and maybe only 50 fair dinkum tackles while i rugby there may only be 30 kicks for the game), so there are players who may be able to base their game around being strong tacklers, laying 10 tackles a game, to perhaps balance out other areas of their game.
Generally, all the other attributes of fitness, endurance (every game is over 2 hrs, 80 mins actual time, and comparing to the 06 FIFA WC, for an extra time game of 2 hrs, the actual play time generally equated to around 75 mins – so, think of playing extra time EVERY game), spatial awareness, lateral movement etc etc.
Also, given the ‘free interchange’, there’s a greater capacity to cover varying fitness levels, that ‘burst’ players can be ’subbed’ into the game for 5 mins here, 10 mins there, a whole quarter if wanted. So, again, you can provide for a wider variety of player types.
Basically – very few AFL players are the ‘complete package’. In a sense, it’s almost impossible to be the complete package. And that, therein is the key – generally, there’s always something, someway, that you can try to beat or nullify your opponent. One of those skills or attributes. Especially on such a large oval, if nothing else, you try to run your opponent around, i.e. ‘Plugger’ Lockett, almost unbeatable in his position, a defenders best hope was to run off him and launch counter attacks and damage the opposition that way.
Also, note, that, in AFL, if you draw the free kick, you must take it (unless so injured as to be unable to), so, whilst teams have preferred specialist forward(target)s that you’d like to be kicking most your goals – anyone at anytime be taking a shot, not just the designated penalty shooter – - – for the life of me, I can’t understand why ‘golden boot’, for example in V2 HAL, saw Kevin Muscat right up with the leaders, he was the penalty taker. That should be a sub-category. [note, this I think is an important difference, for soccer people to understand, in AFL so much more is about how you got the ball, the mark you took, the effort to create space and present yourself - then, you should finish the job off - in soccer, the finishing is the major question mark, opportunities get created and you just hope someone can slot one in, and that get's all the attention].
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Although, my main gripe these days is that overly free interchange has allowed the game to get too fast, in the old days, with just 2 on the bench, traditionally there were on-field ‘rotations’, such that the 2 rovers would rotate out of the forward pocket, the ruckmen might rotate out of the other forward pocket – that required 2 distinctly different specialist back pocket players. Ruck rovers would rotate off a half forward flank. Now, they rotate off the bench, with 4 on the bench – which is fine for covering for injuries etc, but, a little too ‘freely’ used, IMO.
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Midfielder said | February 12th 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
MC
I will be interested in Hopovski responsesto your comment “requires exceptionally high level of foot skills”.
Its shows a total lack of understanding of the skill set required of a football player.
Let me pose you this question and think about how you would coach a skill set.
EG 1
You have a defensive player of say five foot six inches, marking a guy six foot five inches who is attacking. Teach the little guy how to defend their goal.
EG 2
The defensive player is 6 foot 5, and the attacker is 5 foot 6. Teach the defensive to turn as quick as the tall guy.
In each of the above examples think of differnt parts of the field, and what parts are more important than others, and always think of the counter attack, back up support.
Two of thousands of variations that may occur but neither has anything to do with foot skills.
Michael C said | February 12th 2008 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
ah yes, but that effectively comes into the common attributes of individuals, that’s aspect of it is common to all sports, the way that you hope to ‘defeat’ your opponent. I didn’t specifically go into ‘body on body’ work, although mentioned lateral movement, but implicitly included ’sideways’, etc, speed off the mark, vertical leap all those little things that might allow you to work to a strength. These are the ’skills’ of the ‘athlete’ within the player. The ‘tangible’ skills of the game are a different matter.
But – correct – you can be technically gifted, but, still have no idea how to get the ball. And, so, you’ll look great on the training track……..and that I’m sure applies to all sports.
Then you enter into the personal attributes of drive, motivation, determination – the ability to handle adversity etc etc – again, those are common ‘athletic’ attributes across all sports.
Te 5ft6 defender is given by the game the tools of kicking the ball, controlling/dribbling, heading the ball, tackling by foot/legs, and a limited amount of ‘body’ work.
In AFL, the short defender is given by the game the tools of kicking the ball, marking the ball, punching/spoiling the ball, handpassing the ball, picking up the ball (on the run in all conditions is in itself an art/skill), tackling, legal shepherding (blocking), ‘knock on’ (distinctly legal and useable as compared to Rugby!), and at varying times (depending on rules of the game committee) a larger range of ‘body’ work.
All the other tools – the ‘athlete’ within the player brings to the park – and the capacity to make up for certain ’skills of the game deficiencies’ may come down to the ability within the game to get by without ‘finesse’. I guess I know enough people who reckon that Kev Muscat never had any ‘finesse’ and was a typical ‘old school’ soccer player – typical of the bad old NSL days etc etc – and they now yearn for a technically better player to come through the system……..which makes it harder I presume for ‘late converts’ and players with a ‘big heart’ to fit into that vision.
Millster said | February 12th 2008 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
Oh dear. The ‘what sport is better’ argument has morphed into a ‘what sport is more skilled’
And between two of my favourite interlocutors!
My dose of reason is that in all sports there is a minimum technical standard at the elite level below which a player gets found out and removed. Beyond that, it’s far more about the nous, the vision and the game plan – at both individual player and team levels (I say that due to the examples in all sports of the ‘great team of good players’ working to neutralise the ‘good team of great players’).
Whether we’re talking about your hypothetical big guy or small guy, and pretty much irrespective of what sport is being discussed, it’s not so much about the technical tools but about his/her reading of the play, of the circumstances, and of the opponent’s instincts that will govern success or failure.
To focus in on the Muscat example, his intimidation and ankle-shattering tackling are perhaps tools, and his overall finesse has more to do with the passing and control exerted over the MVFC defence that comes from his instinctive understanding of the game. In cricket you also see plenty of fast bowlers get press for bouncers, beamers or simple speed of bowling when in fact their real success comes (more subtly) from knowing to bowl the right ball at the right time.
And while it doesn’t take away from my bias at a whole-of-sports level, I cannot help but admire that potentially game-changing level of understanding in a player irrespective of what code I’m watching.
Michael C said | February 12th 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Millster
Good comment.
I do certainly regard that AFL is self limited (i.e. having chosen to discontinue state of origin) to a ‘elite’ level being a club competition of 16 clubs within a country of 20odd million.
The ‘elite’ comparisons of soccer start becoming clubs in the EPL or other of the big few leagues that draw players from potentially anywhere in the world. So, really, not a good comparison of like for like, and the HAL is presently too low a comparison,but getting there and would probably hold if the 150 Australians O-S were to suddenly turn up in it next week.
So – to start with – ‘globally’, we’re talking about a far broader ‘human base’ in soccer than AFL (sticking with this comparison).
In effect – that more accutely discriminates against ‘technical’ deficiency as well as ‘athletic’ and/or ‘character’ deficiency – at those ‘high profile’ leagues.
Strategically, player ‘nous’ wise, both AFL and Soccer share much in common. Both are about ‘creating space’, about good players appearing to have ‘time’ and ‘reading the play’ and ‘timing your run’ etc. The main difference being the ‘off-side’ rule.
In essence, these are ’skills of the mind’, ’skills of the body’ include vertical leap, 30m sprint, etc – the sorts of ‘physical measures’ – - the skills of the game element, ’skills of the game’ – perhaps 2 sub groups of this last one.
I guess you compare to the more abstract comparison of US football whereby several ‘positions’ don’t need to touch the ball – there ’skills of the game’ is all about ‘body work’ plus planning, strategy. Ball control, delivery etc doesn’t come into it.
So, via ’skills of the game – strategy’, I see soccer and footy as having relatively similar or equatable demands there.
so – skills of the mind, skills of the body, skills of the game – ball skills, game – strategy.
At any rate, back to my point, I do still think, that at a similar level, there’s more scope – and this may simply be a virtue of 18 on the field compared to 11 – to compensate for a skills of the game deficiency in AFL. Although, is that pro-rata? Perhaps the x-factor players, just how many can you carry – explosive in a particular manner, but clearly deficient in others. Is it 1-10 in soccer, and 2-16 in AFL? Hmmmm, still comes down to team balance and the role of match committee.
Marcin Johannesburg said | February 12th 2008 @ 5:41pm | Report comment
Michael C you said “At this stage, most of the soccer money is being spent in the big cities and on infrastructure – it’s not doing anything for the township folk and the ‘outer’ provinces.’
You are spreading nonsense – Soccer City (aka FNB Stadium) is in Soweto and being redeveloped to hold 94k fans. Orlando Stadium will be a training venue for the world cup and has just been finished and is smack back in the middle of Soweto. Lots of the training venues will be in the townships (Attridgeville stadium is in Mamelodi in Pretoria).
When you say ‘outer provinces’ I presume you mean Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Eastern Cape? All three are getting new or upgraded football stadiums.
Michael C said | February 12th 2008 @ 9:06pm | Report comment
ta for the input,
I’ll stand partially corrected,
The comment included the term ‘infrastructure’, so, obviously when referring to new and upgraded stadium – that’s inclusive – although the ‘big cities’ comment was a little narrow,
Obviously a lot of jobs have been created during the construction phase, and the approaching world cup will dwarf the 2003 ICC WC for visitors and economic benefit.
And given the ’soccer community’ already in existence, there’s not really a need to be ‘increasing’ grass roots development programmes.
I was more implying that while there’s a lot of attention on all the new big projects, that what the AFL is doing is also recognised as beneficial but for different and fairly specific reasons.
—
I think Dr Ali Bacher indicated that about 18,500 visitors in 2003 provided about R1Billion benefit, so, the sky is the limit for a hoped 400K visitors in 2010. Just so long as there’s not a Mugabe-esque paradigm shift in leadership beforehand…..
Midfielder said | February 12th 2008 @ 9:54pm | Report comment
MC
You may not have heard of them, but FIFA hace what they call GOAL projects.
FIFA spends 10 of millins of dollars each year building infrastructure in poor countries of the world. Including schools housing and FIFA’s goal projects are generally accepted by the United Nations as the fairest, non bias, funds in the world as nothing is expected.
In Africa alone millions spent each year. How it works in simple terms. FIFA will build a fotball field of top class, they will build accommadition for the players and normally attach a school to educate the players. We are talking of the worlds poorest people. They then provide coaches/ teachers, food etc.
Thats were a very large part of the world cup money goes, …………….from the rich to the poor.
Ever read a postive thing about in the Australian media…………funny neither have I.
So examples for you read them especially the last one.
Agian …….MC……….not trying to outbid ……………but FIFA does many things that are huge and when I read the 200K, ..any way have a look mate
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/developing/releases/newsid=684611.html#goal+projects+approved+four+associations+receive+first+project
22 new Goal projects approved – four associations to receive first project(FIFA.com) Tuesday 5 February 2008
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At a meeting chaired by FIFA Executive Committee member Mohamed bin Hammam (Qatar) in Zurich on 4 February 2008, the Goal Bureau announced that since March 2007, a total of 25 Goal projects have been completed and inaugurated as part of FIFA’s development programme.
The Bureau also approved 22 new projects (association headquarters, technical centre and/or football turf pitches) including first projects for Korea Republic, the Netherlands, Norway and Portugal, second projects in 12 countries and third projects in six further countries. In addition, two first projects that had already been selected – Brunei and Japan – received final approval. However, a Goal project in Barbados has been shelved until further notice due to a lack of progress.
Goal, with development offices dotted around the world, is the focal point as well as the driving force behind FIFA’s football development work and it has now successfully established itself as a powerful brand. At the meeting, FIFA President Joseph S. Blatter stressed that during the current Goal phase, FIFA would focus on making sure that the existing projects were carefully maintained and on breathing life into the infrastructure that has already been put in place. In the years to come, FIFA will therefore be paying closer attention to the football structures of its member associations and concentrating on providing the necessary event management know-
Now
Goal Programme Mission and Goals
Mission
FIFA promotes the independence and professionalisation of its member associations through the construction of a “house of football”. The Goal Programme is an expression of solidarity that provides the associations with tailor-made projects, such as the construction of association headquarters, technical centres, natural and artificial turf pitches and football schools. Where possible, projects are carried out in collaboration with the confederations and government authorities. The Goal Plus Programme will use additional tools (e.g. technical advice and courses) to ensure that autonomy constitutes a central pillar of the long-term development strategy implemented by each member association.
Goals
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/developing/goalprogramme/goalprogrammemission.html
To promote the game of football together with its fundamental principles and
social, educational and cultural values around the world;
To seek parity in the standard and infrastructure of football in individual countries;
To establish modern, functional and transparent football administrations;
To promote the sustainable long-term development of the member associations and encourage solidarity between them.
Now for the best link looks better
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/developing/goalprogramme/allprogrammes.html
Goal Programme
Project StatusGoal Programme officesAll Programmes
The Goal development programme consists of 294 projects for 187 associations at a total cost of CHF 200 million. Check below all these programmes.
Afghanistan (2004) Albania (2001)Algeria (2003)American Samoa (2003)Andorra (2003)Angola (2002)Anguilla (2003)Antigua and Barbuda (2000, 2005)Argentina (2002, 2006, 2007)Armenia (2001, 2005)Aruba (2002)Australia (2004)Azerbaijan (2001, 2005)Bahamas (2000, 2004)Bahrain (2001, 2003, 2007)Bangladesh (2002, 2005)Barbados (2003)Belarus (2002, 2007)Belize (2001, 2006, 2007)Benin (2002, 2006)Bermuda (2002)Bhutan (2002, 2005)Bolivia (2001)Bosnia-Herzegovina (2001)Botswana (2001)Brazil (2002, 2006)British Virgin Islands (2004)Brunei Darussalam (2005)Bulgaria (2001)Burkina Faso (2002, 2006)Burundi (2001, 2007)Cambodia (2001, 2004)Cameroon (2002)Canada (2006)Cape Verde Islands (2001, 2004, 2007)Cayman Islands (2002)Central African Republic (2001, 2002, 2005)Chad (2001, 2006)Chile (2002, 2005)China PR (2002)Chinese Taipei (2003)Colombia (2003)Comoros (2005)Congo (2002, 2006)Congo DR (2002, 2005)Cook Islands (2001, 2004)Costa Rica (2001, 2007)Côte d’Ivoire (2002, 2006)Croatia (2001, 2005, 2006)Cuba (2001, 2004)Cyprus (2004)Czech Republic (2004)Denmark (2005)Djibouti (2001, 2006)Dominica (2002, 2005)Dominican Republic (2002, 2005)Ecuador (2001, 2005)Egypt (2002, 2007)El Salvador (2001)Equatorial Guinea (2002, 2005, 2006)Eritrea (2002, 2006)Estonia (2002, 2006)Ethiopia (2001)Faroe Islands (2001)Fiji (2001, 2004)Finland (2003)FYR Macedonia (2002)Gabon (2003)Gambia (2000, 2006)Georgia (2001, 2005)Ghana (2002, 2005)Greece (2002)Grenada (2002)Guam (2002, 2005)Guatemala (2001, 2006)Guinea (2002)Guinea-Bissau (2002)Guyana (2002)Haiti (2001)Honduras (2001, 2006)Hong Kong (2004)Hungary (2004, 2006)Iceland (2002, 2006)India (2002, 2006)Indonesia (2003)Iran (2001, 2004)Iraq (2003)Israel (2003)Jamaica (2003)Jordan (2000, 2004, 2007)Kazakhstan (2001)Kenya (2003)Korea DPR (2001, 2004, 2007)Kyrgyzstan (2001, 2004)Laos (2001, 2005)Latvia (2001, 2006)Lebanon (2002)Lesotho (2001, 2004)Liberia (1999, 2006, 2007)Libya (2005)Liechtenstein (2002)Lithuania (2001, 2005)Luxembourg (2002)Madagascar (2001)Malawi (2001, 2006)Malaysia (2004, 2006)Maldives (2001)Mali (2001, 2005)Malta (2002, 2006)Mauritania (2001, 2004)Mauritius (2002, 2005)Mexico (2005)Moldova (2001, 2005)Mongolia (2001, 2004, 2007)Montenegro (2007)Montserrat (2001, 2006, 2007)Morocco (2002)Mozambique (2001, 2004)Myanmar (2001, 2004)Namibia (2002)Nepal (2001, 2005)Netherlands Antilles (2002)New Caledonia (2005)New Zealand (2003)Nicaragua (2001, 2004)Niger (2002, 2006)Nigeria (2003)Northern Ireland (2003)Oman (2003)Pakistan (2002, 2006)Palestine (2000)Panama (2001, 2006)Papua New Guinea (2001, 2006)Paraguay (2002, 2004)Peru (2001, 2004)Philippines (2001, 2006)Puerto Rico (2005)Qatar (2003, 2007)Romania (2001, 2005)Russia (2001, 2004)Rwanda (2001)Samoa (1999, 2004, 2006, 2007)San Marino (2004, 2006)Sao Tome e Principe (2001, 2006)Senegal (2002, 2005)Serbia (2005, 2006)Seychelles (2002, 2004, 2006, 2007)Sierra Leone (2001)Singapore (2003)Slovakia (2001)Slovenia (2001)Solomon Islands (1999, 2004, 2007)Sri Lanka (2001, 2003)St. Kitts and Nevis (2003)St. Lucia (2003)St. Vincent / Grenadines (2005)Sudan (2001, 2005)Suriname (2001, 2005)Swaziland (2002, 2006)Syria (2002)Tahiti (2003, 2006, 2007)Tajikistan (2002)Tanzania (2001, 2007)Thailand (2003, 2006)Timor-Leste (2006)Togo (2002)Tonga (2002, 2005)Trinidad and Tobago (2001, 2005)Tunisia (2002)Turkmenistan (2001, 2004)Turks and Caicos Islands (2001, 2005)Uganda (2002, 2006)Ukraine (2003, 2006)United Arab Emirates (2003)Uruguay (2000, 2005, 2007)US Virgin Islands (2005)Uzbekistan (2001, 2006)Vanuatu (2001, 2007)Venezuela (2001)Vietnam (2001, 2005)Wales (2003)Yemen (2001, 2006, 2007)Zambia (2001, 2004, 2007)Zimbabwe (2002)
Midfielder said | February 13th 2008 @ 10:55pm | Report comment
MC & Others
We seem to have got off the theme of the article, and have gone into a bit of who’s got the best of to which there is no way of agreeing
Essentially NRL over 190 odd games averages around 15, 800
AFL over 176 odd games averages around 36, 800
S14 over 23 odd games averages around 21, 300
A-L over 84 odd games averages around 14, 600
ARC over 28 odd games averages around 2, 700
What I was saying was what does this all mean and after reading the many posts, my gut feeling is althrough AFL is first at this stage by a long way in regards crowds, and money, it is no way in a position to claim Australia wide as number one because the large population base of NSW & OLD especially the regional centres have rugby league as there main code.
These two are use to working agianst each other and should see each other off. But the interesting figures are for Football and Rugby Union. The S14 is very strong but has very few local games to build the brand with, the ARC was a total distaster and because it was FTA it hurt rugby badly as what was promised about the ARC was never delivered. The A-league has gone from strength to strenght to a point where it is expanding. The Socceroos as becoming if not already the most followered national team.
How this was done was clever rather than take on the NRL & AFL, as Union did, Frank Lowy said you can follow both, have I can still remember his words, have Collingwood as your main team and Victory as your second team, have Parramatta as your first team and Sydney FC as your second. Thus make football your second code. Thus everyone supports the Socceroos.
It will be interesting to see one if an expanded A-League can maintain the quality of Hal 3, and second the growing impact of the Asian Champions League. But with a ten team comp there are 135 games plus finals, plus 12 or 24 Asian Champions League games, plus internationals.
Union has 23 super 14, games plus internationals.
The battle for the number three position will be interesting I can see football establishing itself as the number 3 domestic code over union and the number one international code over cricket. This will mean some touch times ahead for Australian rugby.
AFL I thinked they are near peaking.
My big sleeper is rugby league, as it can be played on football fields does not need as massive crowd, as it is TV drean sport to show, and I can see side in South Australia or Perth especially Perth where rugby has established a beach head for the rugby style of play.
westy said | February 14th 2008 @ 9:35pm | Report comment
Its a Melbourne weekend you do not really go to the beach the harbour, no you eat theatre or go to the footy. it has two of the best grounds in Australia with an unmatched transport system that moves fans in and out without creating frustration. No other Australian city is near it although Brisbane is improving. It will be interesting how the AFL will go on the Gold Coast.There the beaches and their socal context plays a huge role something not quite available on a ready basis in Melbourne.Plus you will have a powerful consortium of the NRL’s Titans and the A League’s Galaxy playing out of the same 25000 purpose built stadium Football one weekend , League the next sharing ground expenses and some staff and both genuine Gold Coast teams with a large number of local representatives. playing each weekend at this stadium. I am not saying the delayed AFL team will not be successful but there will be a more sizeable drain on the Commission’s resources than they comprehend and for a much longer time frame . The difficulty for the Commission is that this will be at the cost of reductions of funding in current real terms to more than one Melburne AFL team. The AFL Gold Coast team will require long term central funding whereas the Titans and Galaxy are privately funded and despite the Commission’s very optimistic projections and that is all they are some suspect the strategy is to in the long term spell doom or forced relocation of a current Melbourne club. Maybe not the Kangaroos. There are other Afl clubs that effectively run at a loss heavily subsidised by the Commission.. The resources the Afl will directly have to pour into the Gold Coast have been seriously underestimated.
Midfielder said | February 14th 2008 @ 11:47pm | Report comment
Westy
The beach think you talk of, how will this effect a winter played sport.
westy said | February 14th 2008 @ 11:55pm | Report comment
Midfielder don,t you listen to the ads. Its always sunny in Queesland!
Midfielder said | February 15th 2008 @ 12:01am | Report comment
Calling all stato’s, WESTY, MC, Millster& OTHERS
Stat’s unlimited. The following link has all the major European football leagues and in England most of there divisions.
If you like stats then this is for you
http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/D1/attend.html
westy said | February 15th 2008 @ 12:47am | Report comment
Midfielder I am aware that the A league is played in summer but their will be overlap and Galaxy is keen to have current district footballt finals played there in winter to cement local connection. The point is the costs of ground and up keep will be shared. The AFL will need to subsidise for an extended period. There will be no Rugby league super league war to assist them this time around. Success may come but it will come at a cost to some Melbourne club. You see its not only the money there is a limit to the number of quality players that the population of the southern states can produce. For all Sydney’s success they are still dependent on the southern states for players. The Gold Coast needs more than the lone ST kilda forward it has produced. IN New South Wales Wagga has produced more Quality players than the 5 million people of Sydney.Shoosh do not tell anyone they will rattle of the names of some limited number of journeyman . This may change in the future but at the current time Afl does not get the best athletes in Queensland or New South Wales except in some southern regional centres. you see mums like their kids playing soccer football but they also get a good slice of elite athletes in New south Wales. Go to an state athletics finals and ask how many play AFL.in New South Wales. Not many. Mums also like their kids playing AFL in Sydney as it has a mistaken perception of less contact.Iits just to be cruel they are often the leftovers. Now before anyone gets upset there are exceptions and these kids offer a great future fan base but at the current time they produce a very small handful of reasonable players. I am not sure yet that the Melbourne clubs will all vote for a Gold Coast club. The commission needs 12 out of 16 I can think of four teams that may not be keen including the Swans unless a deal is done postponing a Western Sydney team.or other special arrangementsfor others. Notwithstanding the hype All is not well in the AFL wonderland. Trouble is brewing in Mexico. When Frank Farina was Coach of the then Brisbane Strikers he was queried as to whether Queenslanders would turn up to the grand final. He replied of couse they would! Are you sure the doubtful reporter queried? Very. I am a Queensland wog.and most of my team are Queenslanders. Frank was proven correct with a record crowd and 10000 outside. I just do not see many Queenslanders in a Gold Coast AFLside in 2010/11.
Michael C said | February 15th 2008 @ 10:46pm | Report comment
Please note : 2004 AFL draft, 3 from QLD, 2005, 6 from QLD, 2006 – known as a ’superdraft’ for depth of quality, 11 from QLD. Only a couple of all those players to Brisbane Lions. So, a whole team of QLD kids in 3 years has been dispersed into the competition. 2007 was a lesser year for QLD recruits.
Maybe QLD folk yearn for a SoO clash to put their home grown talent on display before them. Last year there were over 40 listed and rookie QLD boys. Effectively an entire ‘club list’ of QLD boys.
Some, like Jamie Charman, Jason Akermanis, Nick Riewoldt are established stars.
Others, like Brett Voss, Daniel Pratt and Josh Drummond are underrated but highly effective
and certainly on the rise players like Andrew Raines, David Hale, Sam Gilbert.
No lack of quality in just that group – and yet most QLD folk probably haven’t heard of more than a couple of them. I tell you what, in the NRL, I don’t think I’m missing 20 let alone 40 Victorians or even a sum total of Vic, SA and WA players. In Union, what, is it Weary Dunlop and Ewan McKenzie from Victoria?
Basically, the AFL has a better base in QLD than either Rugby code does outside of NSW and QLD.
And the thing about QLD and NSW is, that, it’s actually easier to get established because there are more of these good size regional centres, such as Townsville, Cairns, etc. In Vic, the main large centres are Bendigo, Ballarat and the Latrobe Valley, but even so, they don’t equate to a Townsville. Aust Footy has a Townsville league, granted, only 5 teams, but importantly there’s good junior structures.
There’s small leagues around Mt.Isa, Mackay, Darling Downs, Capricornia, Cairns, Bundy-Wide Bay – so, there’s fair exposure in the regionals – and, a lot of clubs/comps have been going since the 50s. It’s not all overnight.
So – it’ll be interesting to monitor. The AFL has certainly pushed funds in recently, and Auskick is probably the best established, funded and run of such programs. The ability to retain the kids into Under 9s and beyond – - similar task as faces soccer. Reality, just so long as the kids keep up some level of sports.
btw – re. grounds, AFL is played on cricket ovals remember, non overlapping seasons, exclusive access during the footy season.
17th license, I support league expansion to 18 clubs. Alas, the self interest of the existing 16 will probably get in the way. Hopefully an Eddie McGuire can lobby for the good of the game.
A game each week in each of the QLD and NSW markets is key for the AFL as a promise of future expanded ratings/esp for PayTV too. Although, it’s still a case that the AFL value proposition at present is the ability to give Fox access to SA and WA which are ‘under-subscribed’ – - obviously then, if the NRL could afford to try to push into that market, then their value proposition might improve. However, they have a heap of groundwork still to do.
westy said | February 15th 2008 @ 11:28pm | Report comment
No issue with this Michael. But really it is not enough for immediate success and in terms of QLD’s population there is a long way to go but is in the right direction. But this is the real discussion not the hype about the international nonsense overseas. THere is not an argument about the AFL’s ability to get a Gold Coast team going and in being successful just about the real cost of achieving this goal. Some of my Melbournian friends seriously underestimate these costs. There projections I think are light on. The Gold Coast success may precipitate the demise of a Melbourne club. I do not rejoice in that but only the Sydney Swans knows the life and death struggle and time necessary to survive in a very competitive environment. The Afl threw money at the Kangaroos and still they would not go becase you and I know it would be the end of their Melbourne existence in the long term. The Swans are lobbying against a western sydney team for at upto 8 years. If the Kangaroos pull of the impossible and actually get backing which other Melbourne team goes Western Bulldogs, Melbourne , ST kilda, Hawthorn. ? IT may be none but these are the real issues. By the way the quality of Sydney AFL Juniors is presently generally poor to average. This is a problem. I like my sport Michael including a good AFL game You are not getting the right athletes and more needs to be invested. The Commission knows this its just some Melbourne club CEOs have little comprehension . I agee with you that the NRL have more potential in Perth.
Midfielder said | February 16th 2008 @ 12:32am | Report comment
MC
A simple question could either Sydney or Brisbane play only locals and be top four material.
The storm would be luckly to find a local player, capable of playing NRL standard
Each A-league team could, in the future sports market the local boy done good will be an important marketing tool in the right hands.
I believe a great part of the success of both the Central Coast Mariners & Newcastle jets, support wise is the high number of local players.
Its is an under the rader thing, but does effect the how the non hardcore view football teams. In local community centres and regions locals doing good assist codes in creating an attachment to a team.
Westy
Your point on quality players is well made, a huge advantage to the A-league is a huge pool of overseas players to fill gaps if no locals meet standard.
Michael C said | February 16th 2008 @ 9:20pm | Report comment
A little secret -
I loved the North Melb power period of the ’90s. Largely, because it was built on their huge success through the ’80s in the Under 19s (under Dennis Pagan, who returned to coach the seniors in the ’90s). Through the 80s we’d followed the development, watched the entire day of GFs on tele from the morning with the Under 19s to spot that young kid called Carey who looked good in his age group.
Alas, the AFL wound up the Under 19s in the early 90s. Replaced by the TAC Cup ‘elite’ under 18s comp. (which in my mind puts kids in contact with their manager before their club – in the business world, that’s probably fine – in the footy world, it makes it mercenary – - like,…., soccer – - and thus, loses a point of distinction).
The Reserves were wound up later on – and now we ‘feed’ out players to ‘feeder’ clubs in the VFL. The Swans and Brissie have their own ‘work arounds’.
At any rate. The whole notion of ‘home grown’ has been eroded to head down the US draft model. Which has many up sides. BUT…..the loss of recruiting ‘zones’ takes away an element such as the 3 great kids who played juniors together at East Keilor, then progress to Essendon 3rds and up to the 1’s…..now, one might end up in Perth, one in Brissie and one at Hawthorn……the other obvious thing being the distribution of brothers. In the past, the Swannies had the Danihers (who they sold to Essendon) and the Morwoods. Now, the example of the Selwood 4 boys being across 3 states. Thankfully, there’s still the (watered down) father-son rule. Theory of course was not every club could or would develop their zones as well as they perhaps should have – so, that was taken out of their hands.
so – ‘home grown’ is diluted into the mix. However, today I hear that Australians should be interested in a Middlesborough vs someone game because Schwarzer and Carney are involved……well, if we should care about that, then, should a Qld person be able to watch north melb and identify Pratt, Hale and Urquhart as local qld products……and care? At any rate, I guess having 2 clubs in the AFL in the state would ensure a little extra press, a bit more exposure and perhaps a bit more recognition of local kids done well……and, importantly, it would probably result in a doubling of locals being rookie listed.
The in-exact science of it all though is that a James Hird was number 79 draft pick. You just don’t know who will defy expectations. Thankfully, there are still ‘PLAYERS’ who defy athletic expectation and excel because, it’s sometimes more about poise and nouse than straight line speed. Some of the best players are being found via the rookie list, that’s a key at least to giving kids a chance to impress in QLD and NSW – they’ve also brought in the scholarship program as well. See how that goes.
—-
anyway, agreed, the Swans have taken 20-25 years. Effectively an entire generation, you need a critical mass of kids to have grown up knowing only of the Swans being there.
The Lions are interesting, in a sense the Fitzroy merger to bring the ‘Lion’ logo and the better jumper, better song, and a sense of history – - it seems to have worked quite well. It may well be that the envisaged outcome is get 17th and 18th clubs up and going, whilst assuming that within 5-10 years, they’ll ‘merge’ (absorb) a couple of Melbourne clubs – and suddenly may yet end up with the Gold Coast Saints (an oxymoron?) and the West Sydney Roos and return then to a 16 team comp.
What I’d wonder though, license fees, it was one thing to charge a huge fee in years gone by to the strongholds of Adelaide and Perth, but, I reckon you wouldn’t be charging numbers 17 and 18.
O-S players in the HAL. Certainly true. And NRL get islanders. AFL clubs are a conservative bunch, but, finally the PNG kids will be & are getting a chance, there’s a couple of fine prospects coming through the QLD system who may yet be draftable in 2 years. I guess, what would be good, and in what time frame? Maybe 5 a year from PNG, Sth Afr and NZ? within 10 years. The US is interesting, there’s a lot, and huge amount of wasted talent in America. US footy is in a growth phase, and in Canada, with about 330 million folk in US and Canada, the AFL would love just to even get a cute little niche of say, 0.01% of the population, y’know, about 30K participation. Doesn’t sound like much when you put it that way!!!
Ah, who knows. Still, as I say, so far the AFL hasn’t really put money anywhere except into Sth Africa – it’s still just cool watching this international development that has been progressing and seemingly gaining momentum. Worldfootynews.com sure is NOT an AFL plant website.
At any rate – for a reality check, all we ever need do is track how Maffra go against the Kiwis. NZ won the 2005 int cup, they’ve played Maffra a couple of times (Maffra, near Sale, voted VCFL team of the year a couple of years back – and a fine example of developing local boys rather than buying success – I guess it’s a big ask, in that http://www.nzafl.co.nz/News/MaffratoplayFalcons/tabid/240/Default.aspx shows how Maffra have clobbered them each time (‘05 & ‘06). We’re in reality still talking about standard (of the internationals) of play somewhere around D grade amo’s – and i.e. my local club – - and, given that it’s not soccer, when coming up against a well drilled team like Maffra – the results are obvious.
Peter Jackson said | April 23rd 2008 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
Just some stats for you made soccer and fumble ball supoorters. NRL is the most watched football code on TV if you include regional areas. And this is despite the fact that the code is not in every major city in Australia. Imagine what the situation will be when the NRL go back to Perth which will happen. Of cause one town soccer teams have big crowds because there isn’t that many games to watch each weekend and the games are not covered on commercial TV where the NRL gets satuation coverage and huge ratings. Wake up boys NRL rules and it always will.
Peter Jackson said | April 23rd 2008 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
Please do some research on the number of people watching the game on TV including regional areas. This will reflect the reat popularity of the foot ball codes Australia Wide.
G MASTRO said | July 9th 2008 @ 9:11pm | Report comment
To Midfielder,
How on earth can AFL be peaking. You obviously love your stats so look at the % gain in attendance figures. The game is still growing at a great clip (10% over last year) and it’s been going 150 years. The A-leagues been going 3 years and the only growth if got this year was from Auckland going out and Wellington comming in, Oh and yeah Becks ofcourse. With the AFL expanding into the Gold Coast and Western Sydney, it will only grow further.
P.S. For those of you who refer to AFL as from ‘the southern states’, grab a map and have a look. You will find that AFL is played in southern, western and northern states as well as being the most prominent sport in southern NSW.
I hope i have enlightened some out there.
JO said | September 27th 2008 @ 8:05am | Report comment
Has anybody done the stats for this year, if so can you send them to Rebecca Wilson at the Daily Telegraph (Sydney paper of course)? What happened to credible journalism, she clearly supports NRL, which is fine and her choice, but as a journalist if she ever wants respect she needs to do her research and provide an overview of the entire year, not pick out a single game where attendance was down (weather was a major factor). AFL will take over in NSW, it may take another 10 – 20 years but it will happen. And as others have already posted here, AFL is already the leading code in many of our states, it is our National Sport.
John Ryan said | September 27th 2008 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
I,m not sure if you have ever read much of Rebecca Wilson’s columns, but there are 2 things you should know,1 she is not a credible journalist which I will agree with you on, 2, she is the most rabid AFL supporter in Sydney,also you said weather was a major factor,funny how weather only affects AFL crowds in Sydney but is not suppose to do the same to NRL crowds.
AFL will take over Sydney, Hmmm where have I heard that before,thats right when the Swans arrived,its been there 25 yrs now and is still from what I can gather sucking on the AFK money supply.
AFL is the leading code in VIC,WA,SA,it is largely ignored in NSW and QLD,Cricket is the National Sport not AFL i,m afraid
l
Midfielder said | September 27th 2008 @ 5:10pm | Report comment
Jo
How long did it take to find this thread ……… are you wanting MC noble prize for research
JO said | September 29th 2008 @ 6:23pm | Report comment
Midfielder
2008 Stats?
John Ryan – well we are 25 years along from where you first heard it, has AFL grown in NSW since then? Has it grown in QLD since then? I would say yes, and it continues to grow. The Sydney Swans are not the only team of interest to those who reside in NSW. You may be right in saying Cricket is our national sport, but AFL is our national football code. And when talking about a dismal 19,000 + crowd due to bad weather – in 2007 only 3 NRL teams had a better AVERAGE than that and not by much for two of them.
John Ryan said | September 29th 2008 @ 7:03pm | Report comment
I suggest you check before you say things has AFL grown, depends whose figures you believe,on TV rateings no, most AFL games in Sydney, Brisbane the answer is no,unless Swans or Lions feature, thosegames get 10000 if they are lucky,local AFL in Sydney 1000 or less some times a bit more,but AFL was beaten by a repeat of Iron Chef on SBS in Sydney just recently.
Juniors, whose figures,if they do was has been rumored and vist a school and do a show then go and claim the school as an AFL school who are they kidding,I think Masters put that one to bed some time ago,I think Masters has more credibility that Michael C and Rebt or whatever put together.
I think you may also find the the Swans lost crowds,members(I read their best crowds where in 1969),they are also back on the AFL teat as they lost money again,the Lions also lost crowds and members so I am told,so one would assume that in another 25 years if this online forum is still going you will write again saying the same things
John Ryan said | September 29th 2008 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
My Tv figure should be 100,000 my mistake,by the way the AFL GF figures in Sydney remain Static and Brisbane the were down 48000
True Tah said | September 29th 2008 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
John Ryan,
didn’t realize Sydney had a team in the VFL in 1969.