John said  | January 25th 2008 @ 4:46pm | Report comment

An excellent analysis, Midfielder. Where did you get the data from?

Two things surprise me on this. 1, that the A-League has such good crowds, so early. And 2, that Rugby League is so low on the list (ostensibly it’s a national game).

If you included the international matches, then I think it’d show rugby and soccer better ranked compared with AFL and League.

Interesting…

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brad said  | January 25th 2008 @ 6:13pm | Report comment

Whats amazing about AFL is that they have the most games and the highest Average. One would expect the Super 14 to have the highest average because they have the least games.

It would be great to see a world wide stats report like that. Probably Soccer, American footbal, Rugby , Cricket in that order?

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Stoffy said  | January 25th 2008 @ 7:37pm | Report comment

Ditto John, cosmos forever and DJ of Sydney.

Very interesting read, AFL with know doubt will always remain the chart topper, but interesting to see some A-league teams rise above those of the NRL. Mind you out of 7 states In Australai only 4 have teams in the NRL whereas in A-league only Canberra and Tasmania dont participate.

Great to read, cheers Midfielder

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Martin said  | January 25th 2008 @ 10:21pm | Report comment

Outstanding, im not suprised one little bit! Considering ALF is played in every state in Australia and is the premier sport nataionaly wide. I do disagree that AFL will lose suport in Melbourne, because AFL was born in the sporting capital of the world and considering that 10 out of 16 teams are situated there i find it hard to belive.

Outstanding infomation, Great work!

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Wingback said  | January 26th 2008 @ 10:35am | Report comment

Brillant, analysis as a Rugby follower both codes, the rise of the A-League is a big surprise.

DJ I assume CA means Cricket Australia, why would cricket be worried about soccer as there is no real comprasssion.

Midfielder do you have these details for any other seasons? If so could you put them up.

My take on these figures is from a rugby prespective the S14 is great but to short I know NZ has its competitions, but is there some way to increase S14 matches. NRL steady as she goes and out rates all others on the box when regional Austrlia is imcluded but crowd wise when compared to those AFL crowd numbers and the income that the extra 3.5 million at matches would gernate is massive and both the NRL needs to lift its game and maybe not play so much at Homebush but back at heart land gounds. I feel maybe league & union should get together forget past differences as these AFL figures when compared give one a scare and if Midfielder is correct about the A-League expanding to 10 teams then we need to act sooner rather than latter.

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matta said  | January 29th 2008 @ 6:13pm | Report comment

might have been said above but remember that the AFL is the top comp for its particular sport - so is the the NRL but super 14 and A-League are really 2nd tier comps.

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W Warambeal said  | January 29th 2008 @ 10:27pm | Report comment

Interesting - but 90% of the AFL still come from the southern states.

BTW there’s an error in the games played for the NRL & AFL on the table. The NRL iwas played over 25 rounds (192 games) & the AFL was played over 22 (176 games) rounds.

Also if you look at the aggregate crowd numbers the soccer doesn’t look to flash (the union even worse) as it is still more than 2 million behind RL. In fact add the TV rating (FTA & Pay) into the equation
RL is doing OK in its heartland states.

have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Australian_football_code_crowds

& here:
Top 50 Programs 2007 – Combined
http://www.thinktv.com.au//Media/Stats_&_Graphs/Top_Programs/Top_50_Programs_2007_Survey8.pdf
1 RUGBY LEAGUE GRAND FINAL 3,748
2 TENNIS: 2007 AUST OPEN - MEN’S FINAL 3,399
3 AFL FINALS 2007: GRAND FINAL GEELONG V PORT ADELAIDE 3,320
4 TWENTY/20 MATCH - AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND 3,319
5 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE QLD V NSW 1ST - MATCH 3,251
6 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE NSW V QLD 2ND - MATCH 3,239
7 TENNIS: 2007 AUST OPEN - MEN’S FINAL PRESENTATION 3,172
8 THE 2007 GRAND FINAL WRAP UP 3,113
9 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE QLD V NSW 3RD - MATCH 2,970
10 DANCING WITH THE STARS 6 - GRAND FINAL 2,963
11 KATH & KIM 2,863
12 THE BIGGEST LOSER - FINALE 2,762
13 ONE DAY CRICKET - AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND - GAME 1 SESSION 2 2,683
14 ONE DAY CRICKET - AUSTRALIA V NEW ZEALAND - GAME 5 SESSION 2 2,673
15 THE FORCE - BEHIND THE LINE-MON 2,633
16 ONE DAY CRICKET - AUSTRALIA V NEW ZEALAND - GAME 11 SESSION 2 2,585
17 DANCING WITH THE STARS 7 2,554
18 BORDER SECURITY - AUSTRALIA’S FRONT LINE 2,546
19 DANCING WITH THE STARS 6 2,519
20 BIG BROTHER - THE WINNER ANNOUNCED 2,518
21 RUGBY LEAGUE GRAND FINAL ENTERTAINMENT 2,497
22 THANK GOD YOU’RE HERE 3 2,481
23 THE 2007 GRAND FINAL PRE MATCH 2,471
24 RSPCA ANIMAL RESCUE 2,451
25 OCEAN’S DEADLIEST 2,438
26 MEDICAL EMERGENCY 2,434
27 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE QLD V NSW 1ST - PRE MATCH 2,356
28 ONE DAY CRICKET - AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND - 1ST FINAL SESSION 2 2,293
29 49TH ANNUAL TV WEEK LOGIE AWARDS 2,282
30 ONE DAY CRICKET - AUSTRALIA V NEW ZEALAND - GAME 8 SESSION 1 2,280
31 AFL: PRELIMINARY FINAL 1: GEELONG V COLLINGWOOD 2,268
32 IT TAKES TWO 2,236
33 ONE DAY CRICKET - AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND - 2ND FINAL SESSION 2 2,233
34 BIONIC WOMAN 2,218
35 CITY HOMICIDE 2,218
36 SEA PATROL 2,212
37 BURKES BACKYARD SPRING SPECIAL 2,180
38 ONE DAY CRICKET - AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND - GAME 4 SESSION 2 2,175
39 TV WEEK LOGIE AWARDS ARRIVALS 2,172
40 STATE OF ORIGIN RUGBY LEAGUE QLD V NSW 1ST - POST MATCH 2,163
41 DANCING WITH THE STARS 6: THE FINAL COUNTDOWN 2,161
42 60 MINUTES 2,158
43 ONE DAY CRICKET - AUSTRALIA V NEW ZEALAND - GAME 2 SESSION 2 2,146
44 HOUSE 4 2,131
45 AUSTRALIAN IDOL - FINAL 24 2,123
46 BIG BROTHER - FINALE NIGHT 2,119
47 NATIONAL NEWS SUNDAY 2,119
48 ONE DAY CRICKET - AUSTRALIA V ENGLAND - 2ND FINAL SESSION 1 2,118
49 SHREK 2 2,116
50 AUSTRALIAN IDOL - AUDITION 1 2,110

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Michael C said  | January 31st 2008 @ 10:18am | Report comment

To clarify.

NRL 25 Rounds fixtured.
However there were byes in rounds 6, 10, 13 and 16. (see http://www.abc.net.au/rugbyleague/scores/2007/nrl/default.htm)

Therefore, 192 games. 3.024 million, avg 15,750, and 9 finals, ave 34,217
compared to 2006
180 games, 2.808 million, avg 15,601, and 9 finals, ave 34,163.

so, 12 extra games got them over the line. The average increase in patronage was 149 people per game, about a 1% increase. (better than going backwards). However, 2005 saw per game avg of 16, 468, so, an element of a step back. (source http://stats.rleague.com/rl/crowds/summary.html)

AFL, since 1995 has been 22 * 8 = 176, plus 9 finals.
1995, 176 : 5.117 million avg 29,078, plus 9 finals avg 66,102
2006, 176: 6.204 million, avg 35,250, plus 9 finals avg 59,131
2007, 176: 6.475 million, avg 36,793, plus 9 finals avg 63,936 - - - up 4.3% on previous year for H&A matches alone. Finals is always a function of number in Melb, high drawing teams, interstate teams travelling to Melb etc (i.e. you don’t want a Nth Melb hosting Port Power final at Telstra Dome!!!)

Note, VFL crowd avg sub 20K, you need to go to 1953, and 1949 for a 16K figure. Does that show where the Sydney based NRL clubs are at? Becuase, in reality, the 3 QLD teams all have pretty decent figures, for 2007, NQC 19.7K, GCT 22.7K and BBs 34K. In fact, the nearer to Sydney you get, the nearer the team averages are around 14K, 12K and 11K.

At any rate,

I believe certain factors come into it:
Club Membership in AFL is huge.
Venues - AFL ground rationalisation, no longer using old suburban grounds that just aren’t up to scratch. Perhaps contracted too much, in Melb, with in reality only 2 venues, could probably do with a niche boutique venue, if only Kardinia Park were actually 50 minutes closer!
Culture of member based clubs vs ‘franchises’, and privately/corporately owned clubs and or competitions.

And also note that the VFL in MElb for example ‘unified’ the population, whereas in Sydney there was a socio-geographic splitting between RL and RU. Heck, ever since 1863 in London when Rugyb and Soccer split rather than compromise and go forth with a united set of rules, after Melb have managed just that 4 years earlier. So, if ever people want to understand the ’spirit of the game’ of Aust Footy, it’s a bit around compromise, inclusion, unity. And, for those who rubbish the International Rules vs the Irish, in a sense, these games actually perfectly exhibit the spirit of working out a way to just have a game TOGETHER instead of apart.

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Michael C said  | February 1st 2008 @ 9:15am | Report comment

cheers Midfielder,
The really interesting thing about Australia:
It’s the most competitive sporting MARKET in the world, especially for ‘FOOTBALL’ codes, and as a per-capita measure.

It’s probably fair to figure that one of the ‘big 4′ footy codes won’t last the distance. Presently Union is looking decidedly shakey - and, realistically,how can 2 Rugby codes be supported when their power base is NSW and QLD.

The A-League is interesting.
Effectively a NSW invitational league at present. 3 teams in NSW, 1 only in 4 other states plus token NZ. Likely expansion sides seem to be Townsville, Gold Coast, Canberra and or Wollongong. Does that put it in greater competition with the AFL? Certainly not. Melbourne and Victoria have shown that the AFL can have it’s best crowd season ever, in the same season in which MVFC win a GF and hit 22K membership, and also the same year that Storm win a GF.

The real frontline of this war is Sydney and NSW. However, you have to ask questions around the wisdom of too many ‘regional’ teams. The AFL has been careful not to place teams in Tassie or Canberra. However, the A-League has ’boutique’ teams in Gosford and Newcastle, and there’s questions around how long until a 2nd Melb or Syd team might come in. The regionals limit growth WHERE an even competition is desired. The A-League probably one day will need to cut free MVFC, SFC and maybe Roar, to go into a soccer equivalent of the Super 14, but in Asia. The A-League will just be a niche development league aimed at tieing up local talent to Australian repesentation. Basketball has certainly gone nowhere, but also, has it’s major ‘representation’ on the same patch that soccer and rugby are fighting hard for.

Crowds wise, A-League has gone ahead year on year. The major reason V2 vs V1 was MVFC moving to Telstra Dome. With 1 extra game MVFC provided +160K bums on seats. Meanwhile SFC with 1 less game provided 33K less bums on seats. And from V2 to V3, the major impact has come from Auckland team being replaced by the Wellington team - providing +83K BoS vs V2. Match avg from ~3K to ~11.7K. Perth has gone backwards each year, Adelaide struggled this year other than for the New Years weekend match at Adelaide Oval that drew 25K (they lost 1-3, wonder how many will come back).
SFC was looking very average this year until the Rnd 21 33K vs MVFC, but then a week later they struggled to 23K for a home final!! And Becksmania was supposed to boost SFC.
I gather not all soccer fans are happily jumping on the bandwagon of privately owned single city franchise teams that effectively ‘force’ you to follow them. Certainly in MElb, many fans are not happy with the corporate Telstra Dome venue either. From an AFL perspective, Telstra Dome is my least favourite venue - it’s just cold, and soulless. The A-League is still competiting against the EPL, Serie-A etc, and actually competes with the full strength euro-socceroos - because they actually reflect poorly ON the A-League. However, in Gosford and Newcastle the local sides HAVE connected with the community. That’s actually a bigger challenge in Melb and Sydney. However, as long as the A-League is on in summer, then, is 20K every 2 weeks in Melb and Sydney really that big a success? And until the 2nd tier comp kicks in, and players missing out get to have a proper run and so maybe the standard might improve, but the costs initially will be higher and the ability for new regional teams to afford setting up and surviving the first 5 years will be more difficult - - - basically, still some water to pass under that bridge.

Super 14s - I know a lot of people who should know about Super 14s but don’t. Probably just that in Victoria they effectively don’t exist. Even for many expat Kiwis, I’m married into one such family. But RU has huge issues with money, with grass roots and talent pathways (the ARC was needed but never had a hope). And the ARU has too much competition from RL both here and abroad that inflates the ARL wages and puts inflationary pressure on the ARU wages. The ARU will soon become the poor cousin of SANZAR - already, their TV rights are the poor cousin. Can they work ‘mid-top down’. Must they just bight the bullet and put a team in Melbourne, can they afford not to. But, just another team in Melbourne, like the Rebels and STorm - with not one single Victorian. At least in the AFL, at any given time there’s about 20-30 NSW and similar number QLD kids running around, and many recent greats of the game are from those ‘non-footy’ states. Rugby can’t claim the same about Vic, SA or WA in anywhere like the same degree.

Out of everything from above - note that AFL has been successfully running ‘elite’ talent identification programs and learning how to ‘convert’ players from varying backgrounds to AFL. A sporting CV that contains a bit of soccer, a bit of basketball, maybe some rugby - can be converted far more easily to AFL than especially back to Soccer. Simply because Soccer, a bit like golf or tennis is a narrow skill band that needs to be developed from a young age. Aust Footy is a broad based skills package that allows players to overcome deficiencies in certain areas and still be contributors at the highest level - - - and that’s part of it too, no knows if the standard is down over all - because we aren’t worried about losing a WC trophy, an Ashes urn or a Bledisloe Cup. By the way - also note the other day in NZ, the Hurricanes Super 14 boys played the local Wellington Tigers Aust footy team in a practice match - the Tigers won. But - in NZ, more and more Rugby boys are playing footy in the off season - as, it’s better than cricket for fitness and especially skills. I think a fellow called Nick Evans in the All Blacks played a couple of seasons in Auckland AFL, and is recognised for his kicking game. AFL is in an interesting international growth phase that the AFL itself hasn’t really had much to do with, other than coming on board in South Africa. Keep an eye in Aug/Sep on the International Cup in Melbourne - no ex-pats and more rigid qualification criteria than the Rugby or Soccer World Cups - i.e. you can’t play for a country just because your parents were born there. I think this growth phase is evidence of the power of the internet in connecting these teams and ‘leagues’ and allowing ’support’ and ‘guidance’ to be delivered immediately - irrespective of ‘main-stream’ media etc. That then is an interesting phenomena to follow whether or not AFL is your particular interest.http: This is a good website : //www.worldfootynews.com/

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Michael C said  | February 1st 2008 @ 1:42pm | Report comment

The international growth is interesting
Denmark has been going almost 20 years now. And initially was mainly expats. Possible a few guys working the north sea rigs etc. There’s also been a bit of cricket there too.
However, now Denmark is well enough established. The Farum Cats in particular have good junior development happening and a relationship with Geelong. There are now Danes who’ve played 200 game careers in the DAFL.
Denmark initially allowed for a Swedish team, and now, there’s a Swedish League. Expanding out of that is the recent development in Finland and Germany.
The key is that the international matches played are retain as the domain of locals - as much as possible, and certainly the International Cup IS exclusive from ex-pats.
In the past, here and there, a team would pop it’s head up, and often, especially once that bunch of core expats moved on - then the team/club would dissolved.
What’s happening now, is that there is real expansion around ‘hubs’. And also, a development of international talent pathways. Nearest to home PNG and NZ will be via QLD, and Sth Africa is a real focus.
Northern Europe though has the benefit at least that they can play against pretty good opposition from England and Ireland.
There’s clubs in the Czech Republic, Austria, Croatia, France and Spain. The chances are now that they are less likely to fold.
Where does it go?
Well. THe main thing is that one doesn’t expect ‘professional’ leagues in most of these cases. The main chances there will be in the US, Sth Africa (pending political leadership) and perhaps Britian - in the foreseeable future.
The critical things are:
A. allow decent international competition opportunities for players to represent their countries - and, note, that it is presently the epitome of ‘amateur’ sports - - possibly a bit like what the Olympics once was but has since been hijacked.
B. allow the possibility of a young kid being given a chance in the ‘big time’. Which - means of course that for - as an example - a young kiwi rugby aspirant who discovers Aust footy as an off season sport that’s beneficial….then suddenly finds that he’s more suited to this game, and perhaps enjoys it more…..then hopefully he’ll gain the opportunity. That ball is in the court then of the AFL and clubs. They have realised they can get kids from Ireland, that’s been happening for 25 years now. The recognition now is that it’s only perhaps a matter of 5 years before kids are coming through from PNG and Sth Africa.

AFL is limited for several reasons. THe size of ovals. Good in countries with pre-existing cricket facilities. THus, the N-W province in sth Africa saw the first real step being to establish partnerships with the cricket body. In other countries, a lot of 9 or 12 a side variants come into vogue for regular comps. Especially at the local level, allows more ‘teams’ anyway for the local stuff - and then in cases the parent club ‘unites’ to play at the ‘regional’ levels. The 9 aside stuff etc makes fielding teams regularly a bit easier as well. And, I guess, when you look at Rugby with their 7’s, then, it’s not necessarily something unheard of or to be ashamed of. There’s actually a couple of regular tournaments such as Bali 9’s, and Dubai and I gather Dublin are kicking one off too.

In Scotland and England, schools are keen on it because for sports in schools, the kids already either love/hate soccer and their are established hierarchies. Here and there, a niche is developing.

Realistically, world ‘domination’/expansion has never really been in the minds of AFL administrators - and most supporters would burn down AFL house if they thought that the AFL was spending too much money OS. But - with what’s been happening, the AFL has been forced to assist and facilitate to a degree - - that’s the other interesting thing about it - this is all bottom up, not top down corporate marketing/expansion.

Ultimate goal?
Probably more that, one day, an Aust team could take on a ‘rest of the world’.
For me. I don’t really want the AFL to become ‘just another pro league’.
The saving grace no matter what though is this - Australia, and more specifically, Melbourne, IS the traditional centre of this particular sporting universe. The MCG is the ‘Wembley’, the ‘Lords’, the ‘Wimbledon’ of Aust Footy. So, even should that happen, one imagines that the AFL and the MCG would forever be the ‘home’ of the code.

unless of course people start claiming that the Melb Rules only were an amalgam of the Cambridge and Rugby rules etc, and that even the Poms can lay claim to Aust Footy - because, really, it was just a bunch of Poms who put it together…..

I wouldn’t mind NSW and QLD folk getting over the fact that the game started in Victoria, it seems silly to choose to ‘hate’ it just because it’s a Victorian ‘invention’. They don’t have to love it, but at least should not stand in it’s way - simply, for no other reason, than to allow it the best chance to continue to provide something that is unique to Australia - especially at a time when more an more people are becoming aware of Australian Football (hmmm, does that carry 2 meanings…….and thus I remind people that the AFL play by the ‘Laws of Australian Football’).

RUGBY
certainly, white dominated SA rugby is at risk, very few white families will be wanting to raise their kids in SAf at present, I know enough recent immigrants from there. But - it is ironic that in Aust the weaker international brand of Rugby is the stronger domestically.
I theorise that there are 3 levels, club, state/region, and international. IN Aust it’s virtually impossible to claim all 3 levels. Simply because each is compromised by the other. In AFL the club level is king, it killed off the state level. In RL, the SoO is king, the club comp is good, but it’s no AFL, although it always appears that Sydney folk would rather keep it as their ‘version’ of the AFL rather than submit to the AFL. At any rate, ARU is strong at International, and okay in a limited fashion at a hybrid of state/international. The FFA has a pretty good International vehicle in the socceroos - who, because not drawn - at full strength - from the HAL doesn’t really compromise the HAL other than devalue it BECAUSE it isn’t drawn from the HAL at full strenght. At present, the HAL, with a few single state teams leaves no scope for interstate competition. And perhaps needs to decide just what format it will be.
Although, of course, we are mostly familiar with National Club Comps evolved from a single state league. The HAL perhaps has the best chance in the short term to be a balanced national comp. However, presently is over focussed on NSW and seems set to continue looking at the NSW/Qld region and just retain a token presence elsewhere - - perhaps a recognition that the AFL is less vulnerable than the Rugby codes. And perhaps an indication that the war is on until someone falls down - - and at this point it’ll be one of the Rugby codes.

Would you see the day when RU effectively collapses in Aust, but, to take over the ‘vacuum’, RLwill have to merge into the RU world and therefore force a re-unification of the Rugby world?

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Midfielder said  | February 1st 2008 @ 6:47pm | Report comment

The state thing is interesting, I have never cared to much about who held the shield or puma cups and got midly excited if NSW won. Sort of lost interest in the SOO. Maybe we don’t really care that much about state games much more.

But at between Sydney, Melbourne & now Brisbane, there has developed apart from club / team a certain we are the best football state. The Mariners are hoping to build using their words “Australia’s Football Centre of Excellence” . So the area and state thing is prehaps more alive in football than the other codes, more I think because football is played in reasonable numbers in each area.

Your point on grants is interesting given the new labour government has promised 32 million over four years to football for junior / youth and womems football, that is on top of what ever is paid for AIS & Olympic grants.

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W Warambeal said  | February 1st 2008 @ 7:24pm | Report comment

Michael C could I just play the Devil’s Advocate for a moment.

Is it true that more than half of the world’s support for the AFL (or Australian Football) is located within a 120 kilometre radius of the MCG?

Is the AFL vastly overstating their playing numbers in Queensland & NSW?

I am asking this last question because I saw last year’s mid-season report stating that the AFL had 70,000 plus participants in each of the northern states.

As far as the Sydney & Newcastle regions are concerned a Sydney paper said the AFL in those region had a total of 189 junior teams. This sound like they would have about 4,000 players at most. Also a looking at the web sites of the AFLQ for Brisbane & the Cold Coast reveals they would have about 4,500 in Brisbane & 1,300 on the Gold Coast.

So if if they had double those figures the total amount of junior AFL players in the northern states would less than 20,000 making it by far the smallest football in those states. As those two states have a combined population of nearly 12 million it puts a hole in the argument that the AFL is our national football code.

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Midfielder said  | February 2nd 2008 @ 5:50pm | Report comment

John Ryand

Your comment about Gilding the lily, is a AFL & Union ploy to smoke screen the facts.

Junior numbers are the perfect example, if you join a kick a ball day you are counted in the figures, union count both private schools and local park clubs.

However in the end it will be there problem as volunters will not see the real state of play, and think all is well. However when the piper comes to pay the toll and the substance is not there the gilding will come home to haunt them.

Union has been claiming for years increasing junior numbers when in fact they have been falling as John O’Neil said the other day.

Similarly AFL claim to be the major TV rating team when in factonly on a capital city basic, when regional Australia is counted the NRL wins.

I see two plays occuring, first the NRL & AFL, in a dog fight to be the countries leading local game (Assumng AFL for certain, and NRL more than likely) have no real international matches. AFL on top but NRL is holding firm long term hard to predict who wins my money would be on the NRL as they hold regional NSW & OLD and these areas still watch and are increasing in size, also the NRL is a much more friendly product than AFL. However it is very close but as W Warambeal posted if 80% of your supporters are within 150 Kl of Melbourne then its difficult the AFL taking over. At present on top crowd and money wise but for how long ????????????/

The second is between Football & Union for the international code. Football will win as it has a very strong junior competition and the A-League appears to becoming established and still growing thus under pinning its national team.

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Michael C said  | February 4th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment

John Ryan - NO, I am not the person you refered to, nor do I gain any financial or ‘contra’ reward for anything I say here or anywhere else from anyone , and certainly not from the AFL. They do a lot of silly things, like all others. However, as they aren’t in the back pocket of either Fairfax or News Ltd, it’s often interesting to see how they are portrayed by the media - - as an observation, I followed the drugs in sport story exceptionally close. I might elaborate later to illustrate my point.

A couple of things around AFL participation.

FIrstly, I’m looking forward to seeing the upcoming annual report of the AFL (unlike the FFA, you can find the last 2 Annual reports freely via the AFL.com.au website. http://afl.com.au/InternationalCupNews/News/NewsArticle/tabid/208/Default.aspx?newsId=40053
I’ve never seen the figure of 70K mentioned, I can’t comment on that.

I can’t speak much of QLD, I know there’s a reasonable AFL comp up around Cairns, and in NSW the AFL is well represented from Wagga across to Broken Hill and down to Albury in what really is pseudo-Victoria from certain perspectives.

Anyway, from the Annual REport, you can see the figures for Auskick, and the focus on the transition into junior teams.

And the listing of an increase in NSW from 36 to 356 school teams.

I refere to http://www.sportrec.qld.gov.au/junior_participation.cfm
Figures from 2003, but indicating for Australia that ‘organised sport’, organised by a club, association or school, but played out of school hours - so that’s a reasonable definition.
Of interest, the figures at the time :soccer at 22.2% of boys, Aust Footy at 13.6% and then to RL at 5.6%. And sadly, only about 35% of boys and 22% of girls were involved in organised sport.

My main point I’d ever make is around participation. I know for certain that footy kids will generally be playing something in the off season, and often basketball or indoor soccer during the footy season. There’s not really an ‘exclusive’ participation measure - and probably, nor should there be - although again, I gather that Craig Foster would want kids entirely involved in soccer from age 6 and the only non outdoor soccer activity would be indoor soccer. Good luck to him.

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/4177.02005-06?OpenDocument

I saw a comparison recently where soccer really jumped ahead in the over 35s range for participation compared to AFL. That was interesting. I’ve sometimes thought about ‘retiring’ to soccer! (okay, a little partial jest there). Basically, nationally, Soccer is well ahead of AFL in over 35s and in womens. For over 15 years of age for organised sports pariticipation, for boys between 15 and 35, soccer and AFL are actually very similar - nationally. Certainly, NSW is the ‘home’ of soccer and the ABS stats present that. Certainly the AFL is starting to focus more and more on women and girls. Netball as well might feel some heat from womens soccer.
The battle for the kids is interesting. And from the ’smell the fear’ rhetoric of Simon Hill back in 2005 - - the reality is that for AFL, kids at school playing soccer prior to the age of 15 is far, far better than kids at school not playing anything. Many mums don’t want their kids playing footy until they’re a bit older……but certainly, back to the Auskick mentality on focussing on the move from Auskick to junior clubs - the battle for kids in schools to go onto to club competition and get exposure to the talent pathway is key.
ANd that brings us back to all the codes - their efficiency at talent identification and talent development. Certainly, in recent years the AFL, I know, has been relatively agressive in QLD, (which is an important pathway now and in the future to incorporate NT, PNG and perhaps NZ). And the AFL must be efficient, as, apart from the odd GAelic kid (odd in all respects???) from Ireland, the AFL clubs can’t just open the check book to kids from ‘3rd world’ countries or banana republic pacific islands…
The challenge then in Australia is for all codes to improve their efficiency….or….for everybody to increase that figure of 35.3% participation. My pet hate is the MVFC might just opt to keep buying in cheap kids from the streets of Brazil……that doesn’t do anything for Australia….however, I assume that the new 2nd tier comp will start allowing A-League clubs to develop talent rather than moth-balling their reserves as has been the case thus far because guys missing out just sit around.
The NRL new youth league seems to miss the point, most the decent kids will be in the top flight by then, and it just seems an added cost burden. I’ll watch with interest how they go about it.
There’s lessons from everywhere - for me - a bit of perspective allows me to more correctly criticise the AFL for what they blunder on, but be a bit more realistic on issues where they aren’t actually that bad, and here and there the AFL has done a good job and actually led the way…….obvious example being racial villification and participation of indigenous Australians.

Anyway, if you want, I can give you a brief run down on the drugs in footy issue to illustrate either total sports reporting incompetance or deliberate mis-representation of the facts (effectively out right lying). Certain profiled sports ‘reporters’ are either sadly incompetant or negligent - or conspiring!!!! (I never used to be a fan of conspiracy theories, but maybe, just maybe, there really has been a conspiracy to hold soccer down in this country too!).

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Michael C said  | February 5th 2008 @ 9:13pm | Report comment

W Warambeal - and back to the original story - - I guess those touch ‘footballers’ are too busy to join ‘real clubs’ or to go watch live - - - I’ve known people who love touch but hate RL. Ah, the fickle nature of sports fringe dwellers who don’t realise the mandate that their involvement has for being presented as hard fact and statistical proof.
http://www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2000/ascpub/pdf/touch%20football%202.pdf
generally live in NSW or QLd, and generally only participate in this sport, but, if in other sports most likely to be RL, Golf, netball & Indoor cricket.

actually, as you mentioned it, I think the AFL realised a couple of years ago that that’s a market worth exploring, and have in the last couple of years kicked off ‘recfooty’. It’ll be interesting to see how the 2 balance across the particular states in say, 5 years. The AFL has never promoted a Rugby 7s style format either, and that’s happened with the 9’s tournaments in Bali, Dubai and now Dublin. Sometimes the people take the lead. I reckon there’d been a few too many ‘old school’ types running the game.

Anyway, good point, good numbers, if the avg age of the males is 34, I wonder how many might have actually played RL and just resorted to a ’safer’ version. Obviously, with the kids the plan would be to ‘convert’ into club players.

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westy said  | February 6th 2008 @ 2:23am | Report comment

Michael whilst I agree with some of your points you must be careful not to folow marketing hype . The NRL has always had the highest proportion of indiginous players in its ranks . For your information as at 2008 11% of current NRL are indiginous Australians more than any other football code in Australia. IN fact one NRL club has a very special relationship with aborignal Australia. League’s working class roots and culture has left it with few books about its history and poor documentation but one thing it has always done is provide a pathway I’m sure difficult at times for aboriginal sportsman to display there skill and earn income from it. The participation of indigenous Australians in Rugby League is longer and much more prominent than any other code its just that Afl markets its involvement much better and I suppose sadly there were not many prominent aboriginal communities left in Victoria. This is not a cheap shot just a reflection on our shared history. League would be much the poorer without its indiginous players . They have been some of its most famous.. You must understand it was easier for them to play League than Rugby. League may be ashamed of the recent behaviour of some of its players but can be proud despite difficulties of its histrical and continuing connection with indigenous AUSTRALIANS sECONDLY ALTHOUGH i ALSO HAVE RESERVATIONS ABOUT the NRL’s U/20 competition it should be seen as a continuation of their U/16 Harold Matthews and U/18 S.G Ball competition ( all NSW NRL clubs, ACT nrl raiders, NORTHS,BALMAIN

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Midfielder said  | February 6th 2008 @ 4:31pm | Report comment

MC

I respect you and the AFL, but in your circle of friends do you know someone who puts in on a bit. Pron to gild the lilly.

Can you name one indiginous AFL coach of a NT Mel as an example. Football in a very quite way without putting it out there in hype has had a national coach of the Socceroos who is indiginous, who spends a lot of time in indiginous communities. But football does not need to shout from roof tops this, also quite a number of indiginous players have played for the Socceroos and way back in the 50’s as well.

So ya MC AFL does a great job but your spin doctors appear to want to ring every drop of media they can get from it. So impressive but ………..not only AFL ……………..& ………………. not as publicly in other codes, and South Sydney in the NRL is a indiginous team, or represents the indiginous community, we all know but think in the long run it is better left unsaid it has a greater impact.

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Michael C said  | February 6th 2008 @ 5:03pm | Report comment

THere’s probably a level of potential for inter code loving to death of ‘minorities’ in the future. As codes might try to proove who’s more special to a particular community. The AFL though appear to have got in first on a few fronts. A better use of cash than paying dividends back to News Ltd (even if they then use those to prop up Melb Storm).

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westy said  | February 6th 2008 @ 8:16pm | Report comment

Michael what is interesting about Gallop ’s push for an U/20 NRL competition is that it is a semi professional national competition where there is a national club and contractual ban on training Monday to Friday between 900am to 4.00 pm with compulsory tafe employment job training or Uni during these hours. e.g. a player 18 has signed a 2 year contract for $40000 p.a. with a carpentry apprenticeship with a club sponsor and contractual indemnity from club and sponsor to complete the carpentry apprenticeship as a paid employee if the club does not renew the contract. It is a genuine attempt to lift the education life skills and maturity of Full time League players and provide a safer career pathway for young men who do not become full time professional players.

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Midfielder said  | February 6th 2008 @ 10:41pm | Report comment

MC you miss read me, I appuald the AFL, all I was saying is the others codes all do similar things to the AFL but don’t feel the need to hype it up and I do get the feeling some of the time the reporting is marketing the AFL.

The NRL has an annual week where all of NSW & OLD indiginous teams often made up teams and play a knock out comp. Many top NRL indiginous play and or coach in these games but its not sold as the NRL doing its bit for the indiginous people and developing training programs to educate disanvantaged people.

So good on the AFL for all the excellent work it is doing and big wraps due……………but the other codes also do similar it more a sports thing done in Australia.

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Michael C said  | February 7th 2008 @ 8:53am | Report comment

Dave - certainly - the game was over in Pretoria. The AFL has put most work into the North West province, and only very recently have started in 3 other provinces. So, for the folk of Pretoria, certainly, it’s no surprise they had very little idea. For the time being I think it was more an excuse to get the clubs over there and put on a show that was televised live (probably to curious ratings!!) so that the locals who are having a crack at the game get to see it on their doorstep. It was only a practice match in the extreme. I gather the attendees were in many cases going to be prospective and footyWild kids who got bussed in. I don’t think the objective was at all about selling tickets to the masses.
Btw - every year the Melb media has gone negative about exhibition games at The Oval (why do they play them? just for drunken Aussies to streak on the ground?), and negative about the International Rules ‘tests’ - irrespective that each time 2 are played in Australia that we get 40K in Perth and 60K in Melb where the fans (during the October sporting doldrums) are happy just to go and not really care too much and just have fun and be entertained. Some media miss the point some times and take it all too seriously.
re. international - most the media don’t care anymore than that these teams are on ‘camps’ over there - and very, very few take seriously that there might be Sth African players coming through the system within 5 years. Remember, the general consensus is that people don’t care about the rest of the world, and a lot don’t care about NSW - and begrudge the AFL spending money outside of the footy states. If half of what is happening was reported, there’d be riots, until people realised that the development in the US, and Europe, is not contingent upon AFL funds nor built entirely around ex-pats.

I again stress the Trevor Grant is more often than not being a bit negative or at least devils advocate regarding the AFL. For me, it’s good to see him leave the AFL bashing for a minute — and re soccer, he hasn’t said anything that hasn’t been said already. It’s just that it seems soccer people will bash anyone else for having a remotely questioning opinion on FFA spin. Heck, I want a Trevor Grant, because the soccer journo’s so far just present their bubblegum profiles pieces - so I want TG to ask questions like “How come AUtd hosted MVFC twice in the first 8 rounds and MVFC had to wait until Rnd 15 to host a GF replay - wasn’t that a 50K crowd washed down the drain?”, and “How come MVFC didn’t host SFC a week earlier, on the Melb Cup weekend, even CUp eve - that was another 40-50K crowd that was missed.” - but no, it seems no one can have a crack at them. Remember, there’s a lot of sports journos who don’t get their total choice of what they have to cover - - just as assuming that a radio DJ is necessarily playing only the songs they themselves love.

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Midfielder said  | February 7th 2008 @ 2:58pm | Report comment

MC

Sounds great what is being done and as I said I appuald the AFL, my only point was its more a football thing in all codes in Australian.

It’s just that it seems soccer people will bash anyone else for having a remotely questioning opinion on FFA spin, ………not so……….however many people say very untrue sterotype things and after years of often very hostile press……………people when things are starting to go well are saying …………….stop all the Bull from the past.

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