By Kersi Meher-Homji
July 22nd 2009 @ 12:08am
Related coverage
Surprise omissions in Cricinfo’s Best Australian XIs
Shane Warne, Glenn McGrath and Justin Langer walk out onto the ground - AAP Image/Jenny Evans
It was interesting going through Cricinfo’s Best Australian Cricket XIs: one selected by the experts, the other by the readers.
The expert panel of Peter Roebuck, Mike Coward, Gideon Haigh, David Frith, Phil Wilkins, Jim Maxwell, Malcolm Conn, Warwick Franks, Chris Ryan and Chloe Saltau selected the following XI in batting order:
Victor Trumper, Arthur Morris, Don Bradman, Greg Chappell, Allan Border, Keith Miller, Adam Gilchrist, Shane Warne, Bill O’Reilly, Dennis Lillee and Glenn McGrath.
12th man Ricky Ponting.
A poll taken by the readers of Cricinfo picked the following XI in batting order:
Matthew Hayden, Bill Ponsford, Don Bradman, Ricky Ponting, Steve Waugh, Adam Gilchrist, Keith Miller, Shane Warne, Bill O’Reilly, Dennis Lillee and Glenn McGrath.
12th man not named.
Seven cricketers are common in both the teams; Bradman, Miller, Gilchrist, Warne, O’Reilly, Lillee and McGrath.
Only one from the current team, Ponting, has made it into the readers’ team. Ponting was the 12th man, according to the Experts.
Among the recent (post 2003) retirees, Gilchrist, Warne and McGrath have been picked by both the experts and the readers, while Steve Waugh and Hayden are also chosen by the readers.
It must have been a huge undertaking as it involved analyzing the statistics, charisma, and reputation of over 400 cricketers in 133 years of Test cricket involving more than 300 Tests.
I am surprised that two of Bradman’s 1948 ‘Invincibles,’ fast bowler Ray Lindwall (whose bowling action has been described as poetry in motion) and Neil Harvey, the elegant left-handed batsman, were not selected in either XI.
Although a McGrath fan, I would have preferred Lindwall over him. Imagine, Lillee and Lindwall to open an attack. What ecstasy for the spectators and agony for the batsmen!
And Harvey could have replaced Border or Steve Waugh.
It must have been very hard to leave out Clarrie Grimmett and Richie Benaud. If the choice is between O’Reilly and Grimmett, I would go for the latter.
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(28)
Severian said | July 22nd 2009 @ 6:22am | Report comment
People pick Bill O’Reilly because he was more the Kumble type of leg spinner, so there’s a bit of variety there compared to Warne, who would obviously be the first spinner picked. Grimmet was probably a better bowler than O’Reilly , but he’s too close to Warne in terms of pace, flight, turn etc.
I think Matthew Hayden would not be a good pick for such a team. Look at the way he refused to treat bowlers with respect in England, and tried to dominate when conditions demanded a more conservative approach. That average of 34.5 in
England is the one little hole in his record, but it’s a significant one.
Assuming these All Time teams would be facing opposition of roughly equal strength, Hayden would be facing bowlers who you couldn’t expect to dominate. Would he put his head down and grind it out, or would he let his ego get him out?
I’d pick Michael Slater before I picked Hayden. He played in an era of great fast bowlers, when pitches weren’t nearly as flat as they are today. He scored runs against the best bowlers, and in the worst conditions. He scored quickly and had that ability to get you back into a game, or put the opposition out of it it 1 blazing session.
Ron said | September 28th 2009 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
Foolish to pick O’Reily. He would be deadly on uncovered pitches, but then so was Derek Underwood. Not sure how much impact he would have in the modern game. Which is the point. To bridge era’s. Grimmet was more similar to Warne, and if I could have two Warnes I would every day. With batsmen that’s OK. Pitches keep getting better, but with bowlers it’s harder. A mistake to pick Allan Border over Steve Waugh, also Steve Waugh would be captain over Bradman. I disagree with Greg Chappel over Ricky Ponting, Ponting is a much better batsman, his stats outshine Chappel’s, also say what you will about Ricky Ponting, but Ian and Greg Chappel were mongrels, so too was Dennis Lillie, destroying Kim Hughs’s career makes him ineligable for selection because he was a F**khead Therefore:
Slater/Morris/Bradman/Ponting/Waugh/Gilchrist/Miller/Grimmet/Warne/McGrath/Lindwall
Justin said | July 22nd 2009 @ 7:59am | Report comment
I was a little surprised that there were 2 spinners as this is a rarity for an Australian side. Lindwall perhaps could go in for O’Reilly…
I would have Border and Ponting over Waugh who while a great batsmen batted so much at 5 and 6. Border is the best fighter I have seen, he faced better attacks than Waugh and was in a woeful side for long periods.
Brett McKay said | July 22nd 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Justin, obviously this team is picked to play in Sydney!!
Kersi, the “experts” team bears a striking resemblance to the Australian Team of the Century – have you been able to view the two side by side??
sheek said | July 22nd 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Kersi,
I agree with your suggested XI, with Harvey & Lindwall replacing Border & McGrath. Chappell vs Ponting is a tough call (head says Ponting, heart says Chappell).
Harvey like Border, is a left-hander, but brings a consistently more attacking mindset to the team. Not that this should be seen as a negative for Border, as any great team needs a stalwart. I guess it’s another 50/50 call.
Lindwall brings greater batting depth than McGrath to the XI (not that you need it with Bradman, etc there). No disrespect to McGrath, but he was like a tse-tse fly, putting batsmen to sleep before dismissing them. Both Lillee & Lindwall had a fear factor about them (much like Viv Richards with the bat).
Severian,
I agree Warne & O’Reilly are both leggies in name only. Warne of the slow looping flight & vicious spin off the mat. O’Reilly with his snarly fast bowler temperament & viciously spinning medium pace leggies. I’ve also read where some old-timers thought Arthur Mailey superior to Grimmett, just to confuse us further.
Slater was certainly treated shabbily by the selectors. I would have Hayden & Slater as my best openers since 1970. As a general comment, bowling attacks aren’t generally strong in the 2000s, allowing batsmen to have higher averages than their ability suggests. Of course, it’s always tough to compare different eras, & stats can only be a starting point guide.
Justin,
The reason why Miller is almost always picked at 6, allows you 5 bowlers. Two specialist pacemen & two specialist spinners, with Miller the 3rd paceman.
The Australian XI nominated, whichever way you cut it, is an awesome combination. It will be interesting to view the best XIs from other countries as they come along, but the Aussies are still number one in any case.
Anyway, adopting Kersi’s tweaking, here’s an Aussie first XI & second XI.
1st XI: Trumper, Morris, Bradman(c), G.Chappell, Harvey, Miller, Gilchrist(k), Lindwall, Warne, Lillee, O’Reilly.
5/1/5 breakdown – 5 specialist bats, keeper/bat, 5 bowlers (3 pacemen & 2 spinners). Right/left hand opening combo plus 3 lefties in top 7. Batting depth to Warne at #9. Chappell also extra useful medium-pacer.
2nd XI: Hayden, Ponsford, Macartney, Ponting, Border, S.Waugh(c), Tallon(k), Davidson, Grimmett, Spofforth, McGrath.
6/1/4 breakdown – more traditional 6 bats, keeper/bat, 4 bowlers (3 pacemen & one spinner). Right/left hand opening combo plus 3 lefties in top 8. Batting depth to Davidson at #8. Macartney second spinner (slow left-arm) while Waugh & Border useful medium pacer & slow left-armer respectively.
sheek said | July 22nd 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Australian (ACB) Team of the Century XI, selected January 2000.
Bill Ponsford
Arthur Morris
Don Bradman(c)
Greg Chappell
Neil Harvey
Keith Miller(vc)
Ian Healy(k)
Ray Lindwall
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Bill O’Reilly
Allan Border(12th man)
SMH reader’s poll varied in several ways. Victor Trumper chosen as opener in place of Ponsford. Don Tallon as keeper ahead of Healy. Allan Border came into starting XI in place of O’Reilly. Steve Waugh alternate 12th man.
Cricinfo Best Australian XI, selected July 2009 ( 9.5 years later).
Victor Trumper
Arthur Morris
Don Bradman
Greg Chappell
Allan Border
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist(k)
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Bill O’Reilly
Glenn McGrath
Ricky Ponting(12th man)
Readers poll varied in 4 batting positions. Bill Ponsford & Matt hayden replaced Trumper & Morris as openers. Ponting & Steve Waugh replaced Chappell & Border in middle order.
Brett McKay said | July 22nd 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
thanks for that Sheek, there’s actually not as much sameness as I was expecting…
Kersi Meher-Homji said | July 22nd 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Sheek,
Thanks for providing answer for Brett’s query on Australia’s Best team of the Century.
My personal Best Australian XI?
Trumper, Ponsford, Bradman, Harvey, Greg Chappell, K. Miller, Gilchrist, Warne, Lindwall, Lillee, Grimmett. 12th man: Jack Gregory. Motivator: S Waugh. Adviser: R Benaud.
Brian said | July 22nd 2009 @ 10:09am | Report comment
I agree with Severian, assuming this team would face the all-time XI from all the countries I don’t think Hayden has the application for the four West-Indies paceman chosen. After all the reason his career was delayed so long was because he didn’t have the application to see out the ageing Ambrose & Walsh
sheek said | July 22nd 2009 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Thanks guys,
There’s usually a ‘core’ of players that can be expected to dominate. Bradman, Miller, Warne & Lillee are virtually “untouchables”. Gichrist is another who can now be regarded as “untouchable”.
There a 4 openers in contention with each other – Trumper (rh), Ponsford (rh), Morris (lh) & Hayden (lh).
I’m both surprised & delighted at how well G.Chappell has stood the test of time. Statistically, only Bradman & Ponting have superior batting averages. Harvey (lh), Border (lh), S.Waugh (rh) & Ponting (rh) will continue to contest the middle order spots.
O’Reilly’s place will always be subjected to the whims of a 5/1/5 or 6/1/4 combo, while the arguement over Lindwall & McGrath for the 2nd paceman’s possie will continue unabated.
Kersi,
Grimmett is too close in style to Warne, while O’Reilly offers a different set of skills. Assuming Warne is the first spinner you choose, then O’Reilly provides a better contrast as #2, compared to Grimmett.
It’s a similar argument with the pacemen. Assuming Lillee is the first paceman you select, then Lindwall, with his greater batting ability, makes more sense to choose than McGrath, acknowledging that there is little difference in their bowling abilities.
sheek said | July 22nd 2009 @ 10:36am | Report comment
One of the interesting things about all-time selections, is that they will vary according to local traditions/customs.
Like Miller for Australia, Botham for England, Procter for South Africa & Imran Khan for Pakistan will allow you to select 2 other pacemen & 2 spinners.
For the Windies, Gibbs is clearly the outstanding spinner in their history. Add 3 pacemen, & then along comes Sobers, who gives the team both a 4th paceman & 2nd spinner, all in the one player! Not to mention brilliant batter to boot.
India is a bit tricky, & selection needs to be well thought out. The 5 frontline bowlers will give you 3 spinners & 2 paceman. However, by selecting Kapil Dev & Vinoo Mankad you immediately get two all-rounders. If you select batsman Hazare, he would be your 3rd paceman.
So there’s all these little variations from country to country making it a fascinating exercise. I always select an all-time team assuming the same XI can beat all opponents in all conditions in all countries.
vinay verma said | July 22nd 2009 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Kersi beg to differ..My XI as follows
Bob Simpson
Arthur Morris
Bradman
Ian Chappell
Greg Chappell
Keith Miller
Gilchrist
Benaud ,Richie and captain
Warne
Lindwall
Lillee
Lindwall Lillee and Miller would get a lot of edges and this has prompted the inclusion of Simpson and the two Chappells.The slips cordon with this team looks awesome. And catches win matches.
I have also gone for Richie as Captain because I believe he was one of the most influential figures and still is in Australian Cricket. Ian Chappell just shades Allan Border as both these players were redoubtable fighters. I would not be upset if Border replaced Ian but it is close.
sheek said | July 22nd 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Vinay,
Chappelli is one of my favourite cricketers, & my favourite captain, but statistically, no matter how much you stretch it, he isn’t an all-time first XI selection.
And believe me, I would LOVE to have him in an all-time Aussie XI, but I/you can’t justify it!
Ditto Benaud (unless we were English, where we pick the captain, then the rest of the team)!
vinay verma said | July 22nd 2009 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Sheek,today I am not in an analytical mood and it is my heart swaying reason. I have decided to abandon statistics for the rest of the week. I am concentrating more on how have the great cricketers influenced the direction and well being of Cricket. The historical and societal impacts of one mans demeanour and actions. And statistics tell only part of the story. This just happens to be a theme I am researching at the moment.
sheek said | July 22nd 2009 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
Vinay,
I’ve always approached selecting all-time teams from two directions.
1. You select the all-time team (or period/era) based on a combination of stats, the player’s domination at the time & his long lasting legacy.
2. You select the all-time team based on those players whose character & personality you admired, the manner in which they played the game, & perhaps their courage in particular situations.
I think my two teams might differ in about half a dozen positions, with the second mode of selection not as strong on paper, but perhaps a more united outfit?!
You certainly appear to have chosen a team based on the second mode of selection, & that’s quite alright.
vinay verma said | July 22nd 2009 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
Hello Sheek–I really do appreciate your comments. They are well thought out and reflect a wider world view than one generally encounters. The tyranny of isolation and disinformation can have a debilitating effect on one’s response.
On another matter altogether. Did you hear the story about Dhyan Chand being offered A Field Marshall’s Commission from Hitler after India beat Germany 8-1 in the Berlin Olympic Hockey Final? The sad part is Dhyan Chand died penurious and it is only now that the Indian Government hand out the highest Sporting Awards on his birthday. More of that when i complete my research. Keep well.
sheek said | July 22nd 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
Vinay,
Thanks for the kind words. Life can be unfair, can’t it, recalling your brief story above about Dhyan Chand.
American Indian Jim Thorpe was another, so shabbily treated by his fellow countrymen, yet probably the greatest allround sportsman of the 20th century.
JohnB said | July 22nd 2009 @ 9:31pm | Report comment
Eddie Gilbert another nomination if we’re getting up a least honoured in their own country XI, Sheek?
I recall you started an all-time Australian cricket XI thread not so long ago – selecting better (ie closer to what I would pick) teams than Cricinfo seemed to manage. Very puzzling to me that anyone would be in the frame ahead of Chappell, G and Ponting (based on what I’ve seen) and Harvey (based on reputation) for the middle order spots after Bradman, and that you could ever leave Lindwall out of a team.
Incidentally, picking up the comment re the poetry of Lindwall’s action – the footage I’ve seen of it he was even more roundarm than Mitchell Johnson, so there may be hope for the Sandgroper yet.
vinay verma said | July 22nd 2009 @ 9:47pm | Report comment
JohnB- I had the privilege of seeing Lindwall bowl at the Eden Gardens in 1960 and though he was at the end of his career it was his runup more than the actual delivery that was poetry in motion. A smooth gradually accelerating runup.
For me the real poetry in motion and delivery was Whispering Death. Being a champion 400 metre runner no doubt helped Michael Holding.
And just in closing Lindwall could also belt the ball.
vinay verma said | July 22nd 2009 @ 9:40pm | Report comment
Sheek/Kersi Talking about Neil harvey I saw him score the most stylish 30 ever by a left handed batsman in 1960. But the man who left an indelible impression was Norm O’Neill. He got 113 and his pulling was precise and bordering on the brutal. Also a very strong straight drive. And he had a rocket arm from the boundary. In those days it was close to 80 meters.
Richie Benaud was as debonair as ever and I think he was the influence on Jaishima who forever after had his collar up and cut a dashing figure himself.
vinay verma said | July 22nd 2009 @ 9:41pm | Report comment
Sorry Kersi/Sheek- In my reverie I forgot to mention it was at the Eden Gardens.
jonno said | July 22nd 2009 @ 10:57pm | Report comment
What a joke, how you can miss out on Ponting who has the second best average in Australian Test history a better average than Lara or Tendulkar beggars belief.
Ponsford only averaged in the 40’s in the days when scores of 600+ were made on a regular basis. His fetish with hitting the ball on the ground would also be useless in ODI or 20Twenty.
sheek said | July 22nd 2009 @ 11:26pm | Report comment
Vinay,
You ARE a cricket tragic!
From memory Harvey faded due to eyesight problems, struggling to adjust to contact lenses.
O’Neill faded in 1965 at just age 28. He had severely criticised the bowling action of Windies fastman Charlie Griffith, which didn’t go down well apparently. He also was an extremely nervous man, especially at the beginning of an innings.
BTW, how old are you two, Vinay & Kersi – 120, 130 (only joking)!!!
My love of cricket comes from my father. In late 1960, I was just 4 years old living in a small, isolated coastal town on the north coast of New Guinea, where my father was the district officer.
I stumbled into the admin outpost one late afternoon to find my father, several other europeans, & even a couple of native policemen around a wireless set listening to something, with empty beer bottles all over the place! They appeared to be all very excited.
When I mentioned this scene years later to my father, he recalled it very well. He says that was the day they listened to the last day of the first test against the West Indies – the first TIE in test cricket. Broadcast was courtesy of Radio Australia.
My father told me the story of the tied test many times over. When I was 12 he gave me my first ABC cricket tour book – West Indies in Australia 1968-69. I still have it today.
I was now hooked on cricket!
vinay verma said | July 23rd 2009 @ 9:25am | Report comment
Sheek–I would expect Kersi and I combined would be 500 years old. Just like the Phoenix we are both about to ignite and turn to Ashes. But do not despair we intend to come back and live for another 500 years. It is not without reason that I have dubbed Kersi NOSTRADAMUS.
Kersi Meher-Homji said | July 23rd 2009 @ 8:07am | Report comment
Sheek,
That’s a nice story about your father and the tied Test.
My love of the game started when I was 11 listening to the India v. Commonwealth XI unofficial test on radio in 1950 when Vijay Hazare hit a century in Calcutta. Since then Hazare is my hero number 1. I stayed up till late night listening to India being massacred by debutant Fred Trueman in the Leeds Test in 1952. At one stage India was 4 wickets down for no score. And I was devastated despite my hero Hazare scoring a gritty 50. (Now you know my age!).
Jonno,
Stats are important but have to be interpreted. Now Ponsford v. Ponting, both great batsmen. But Ponsford played when pitches were not covered. There were no helmets then. Boundary lines are shorter now.
vinay verma said | July 23rd 2009 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
Let me tell you a funny story Sheek. In the sixties when australia were playing in Calcutta,my late father in law was ferrying some of the Aussies to the Eden Gardens in an Ambassador which broke down 300 meters from the ground. We had Jarman,Booth,Burge and Vievers putting their shoulder to the wheel. As is common a crowd gathered and insisted the players get in the car and the crowd pushed the car for 300 meters to the ground.. Such is Indian hospitality.
Ottayan said | July 23rd 2009 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
Glad to know that there cricket fan who are older than me.:)
Sean Keenan said | November 22nd 2009 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
As a massive cricket nut I just had to comment on this.
Why is Spofforth not mentioned at all? He was more revered than Lindwall (not trying to diss Ray however) during the 19th century. Actually, he must be picked: he may well be our best ever. He won us matches in the manner Shane Warne would. Choosing a second spinner is good, but not essential as Warne is a phenominal. Hayden hit 30 hundreds and made one more hundred than he did a 50…. that’s astonishing. Averaged over 50 with a great strike rate and hit a world record score. Much more entertaining than Bobby Simpson, however, Simpson did average 55 as an opener and was a great cricketer. I like the selections people have gone with, it’s just my team is subtley different. It’s probably not QUITE the best for ALL conditions, but it’s capable and very potent.
Keeno’s team is:
1. V. Trumper
2. M. Hayden
3. D. Bradman
4. R. Ponting
5. G. Chappell
6. K.Miller
7. A. Gilchrist
8. S. Warne
9. D. Lillie
10. F. Spofforth
11. G.McGrath
Ive reviewed it a lot, but will never change my mind. In fact, it would be difficult for a cricketer in the future to crack this team.
What do you think?