By Pippinu -
October 29th 2009 @ 1:02am
Get a Roar profile
Loading ...Related coverage
Football flexes its new found confidence
Melbourne Victory's Matthew Foschini in action against Newcastle Jets' Ljubo Milicevic during round 5 of the A-League Season, played at the Ethihad stadium in Melbourne, Thursday, Sept. 3, 2009. The Jets drew against Victory 1-1 after full time. AAP Image/Joe Castro
As we all await to see whether the FFA is capable of putting together a bid to host the World Cup in 2018 or 2022 that is at least half credible, we remain with the uncertainty as to whether the largest sporting competitions in the land will need to shut down for up to eight weeks.
What has taken me aback the last few days are a couple of articles that have attacked the major football codes in this country with unrestrained venom, when in truth, there appears to be no good reason to do so.
Firstly, Mike Cockerill, of Fox Sport and the SMH wrote an article that accused the major football codes of causing an uproar at the news of a possible eight week shut down, and even labeled them as saboteurs.
But had there truly been any sort of reaction that warranted this sort of attack?
A few league CEOs had expressed concern at the possibility of an eight week shut down, and to be honest, you would expect no less of a CEO under those circumstances.
The AFL boss, Andrew Demetriou gave no comment except that he was awaiting further details from the FFA.
Not a word has been forthcoming form the rugby fraternity of any description.
So it remains a mystery as to why Cockerill would choose to label the other codes as saboteurs, especially when the FFA is doing a good enough job on that front on its lonesome by completely underestimating the technical requirements of hosting the World Cup.
Then yesterday, I came across this online article in The World Game by Phillip Micallef.
If we can charitably describe Cockerill’s article as premature, we can label Micallef’s as absolutely venomous.
He opens with this statement: “rugby league’s feral mentality was at its height of hysteria …”
Micallef goes on to use offensive terms such as: insular, chest beating frenzy, boofhead, narrow minded, fools and head in the sand.
If that wasn’t enough insulting language for one day, he closes with: “… rugby league could stage half a dozen tin pot World Cups of its own.”
Quite vicious, even if it is slightly unoriginal.
But two questions that come immediately to mind:
1. What on Earth has the NRL, and league supporters generally, done to deserve this sort of treatment?
2. Is it smart of someone who is interested in promoting football?
The answer to the first question is “nothing.”
The answer to the second question is, “probably not.” But it’s even more complicated than that.
League is a huge sport in NSW and Queensland, two markets where one could argue the A-League is underperforming.
SFC has never got back to the healthy crowds it attracted in its first season (which ultimately bore a championship).
The Roar’s attendance figures have gone from bad to worse over the course of the last few years, while their near neighbours, GCU, have become an absolute laughing stock of Australian sport (while at the opposite end of the spectrum, league clubs the Broncos and the Titans rule this part of Queensland).
So why would a pro-football journalist be so keen to denigrate league?
Part of the answer is to be found in the new confidence Frank Lowy has brought to all football lovers across the country. They have been uplifted by an influential figure, a talisman, who is intelligent and has plenty of business acumen and foresight.
This has been compounded by the current close relationship with FIFA, in the lead up to the deadline for putting a bid in to host the World Cup.
This has enraptured and emboldened football fans who for the most part are imagining that FIFA will walk into the country and crush the AFL and NRL forever on their behalf, or at the very least, take over Parliament, and pass legislation that winds them down as corporate entities.
Football fans across the country have a new sense of confidence, of being able to stand up to the school yard bully – with the help of their older brother from the secondary school across the road who happens to be momentarily passing by.
But older brothers are notoriously unreliable, and generally don’t really give a damn about their kid brother, especially when other adventures await, where there are more important people to impress, who offer far more cachet.
Like this content? Buzz it up!
Free Email updates:
Our daily emails are only sent if there is content for the sport or that author. You can subscribe to multiple daily emails; or get the daily Roar email with all our content in it. We value privacy. More...
(167)
Billo said | October 29th 2009 @ 2:49am | Report comment
I don’t know who Phillip Micallef is, but clearly he is a boofhead of the first order. Can someone please persuade him not to write articles in support of the World Cup? Maybe he is an NRL man in disguise.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 7:24am | Report comment
Billo
interestingly, that old expression comes to mind: with friends likd Palmer and Micallef, who needs enemies?!
It has to be said, that the majority of the readers of TWG love that sort of writing, love that show of confidence.
A handful appreciate that it is 100% counter-productive.
Griffo said | October 29th 2009 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Pip, from what I have read, more people took offence at Micallef’s article just for the shear fact that it was utter crap, un-called for revenge and just plain lazy journalism than did support it. I wonder how many who did support it actually denigrate Rebecca Wilson’s pap.
I think there is a lot of…hmm…competition under the surface as to which sport should or will be No. 1 in the country, as if Australians ever put up with being told to follow just one sport when all are good. Maybe football won’t always be played when AFL and NRL are in recess, but encouraging those fans to pick up another sport while they are waiting wouldn’t hurt.
tifosi said | October 29th 2009 @ 4:41am | Report comment
Pip, after years of takinh sh*t from the anti-football media and the like, it doesnt surprise me that the usual suspects are having a go at them today.
Problem is, this confidence is starting to fade rapidly. Rather chasing pie in the sky, how about the FFA concentrate on sorting out the A-league. Week in week out sport is what matters.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 7:39am | Report comment
tifosi
It’s true that football has copped plenty of shit over the decades – although in fairness, much of it was generated from within its own ranks.
But in an article like Cockerill’s we have the double whammy of playing the victim card on one hand (those big bad other codes won’t let us play!!) and insulting them and their supporters at the same time.
Micallef’s was just one big insult – as much to him and TWG as to League – but most importantly – it was not warranted by anyone’s behaviour – that’s the strangest thing of all.
In hindsight, it may have been better for Gallop to follow the exact same lead as Demetriou and O’Neill – but he was only quoted as responsding with two shortish sentences describing the obvious difficulty – it was nothing more than that.
aljay said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Definitely seems to be a case of soccer writers thinking “we’ve taken crap for years, now we’re at a semi-competitive level with the other codes, its time to fire back”. I’ve read this on a number of occasions. Given that soccer will always rely on spectators with a vested interest in their AFL/NRL team, this will be a very unproductive pursuit.
I for one have an interest in both, but will quickly dismiss the A-League should soccer people demand I choose one or the other.
Freud of Football said | October 29th 2009 @ 5:58am | Report comment
Has anyone else noticed the deteriorating quality of TWG? The last week or two being my case in point.
First they get Culina to write some rubbish in which he tries to defend the undefendable – GCUFC. That SBS allowed that rubbish to be published – just look at the audacious title: ‘It’s about time we got some respect’ – on their website, well they should be ashamed.
Then Fink totally kisses his arse in his blog just so as his disagreement doesn’t look hostile (he’s obviously burnt a lot of bridges) and then of course Micallef’s rubbish in which he must have needed a thesaurus to find new insults to use. I mightn’t like NRL or its supporters a great deal but even I wouldn’t write something as vitriolic and unnecessary as that.
Foster barely bothers writing anything on there and when he does its a letter of congratulations, which might I add the people he’s congratulating are extremely unlikely to read or give a rats arse about if they did.
Murray seems to do it as part of his contract, not out of love like he used to and can’t help but talk about immigrants and foreigners and Johnny Warren every chance he gets.
Tuckerman’s recent piece on the Bundesliga shows one thing; he knows nothing about German football but feels compelled to write about it for Australian’s as nobody else there does either.
Corran keeps getting the short end of the stick as his material gets published after others have already been put online and Fink, well if you follow his writing in general you’ll likely have the same impression as I have, he’s running out of ideas.
I don’t mean the incessant harping about Carle but look at how much of his work he dedicated to Neill finding a new club, as if there weren’t more important things to write about (Mutu’s 16 Million Pound fine, Chelsea transfer embargo, Aus WC bid, god anything!). Or how about two blogs published on the same day, on the same topic (more-or-less) just on different sites:
1) http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/10/16/morettis-truculence-jeopardises-australias-standing-in-asia/
2) http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/blogs/halftimeorange/forget-moretti–kewell-and-cahill-need-to-be-reined-in-too-246301
If I’m honest, I much prefer the stuff written by the Users on The Roar, at least some of the people on here have their finger on the pulse and while Pip’s piece here is simply his thoughts on Chuq’s piece combined into an article it’s every bit as good as the stuff coming out at TWG at the moment and way better than anything I’ve read of Micallef’s.
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 6:24am | Report comment
Just because someone constructs a sentence well & writes in an entertaining way, does not make the contents of his writings being on the finger of the pulse.
This article is written by an AFL person who fears the Football WC coming to Australia. If Australia has as little chance as he states, why spend so much of your time being up in arms about the WC having stop the AFL from playing for a few weeks.Why vent your anger.
For years, football has copped it from the media, & we get told we are too precious. Now we get the odd article come out about some of the other codes in a negative way (long may it happen) & the AFL cohorts gets into such a tiffy. As least the RL people are used to criticism as the media here gives it to them. But the AFL has autonomy down there in Melbourne & don’t handle criticism much. I heard their radio station SEN was told by the AFL to drop all segments including calling the game of football.
FEAR in their officials & fear in their fans. If the A-League, football & the Socceroos were so insignificant in this country, so why so they especially the AFL cohorts on this blog spending so much time on Football related matters or even writing articles on them in their negative way.
HOW PRECIOUS is this article, poor little insignificant football writers daring to have a go at our century old sports.
Radio SEN said | October 29th 2009 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
The AFL telling SEN to stop broadcasting soccer? How bout that.
In fact, the AFL does own a portion of SEN – so why shouldn’t they have a say in what is broadcast on their money?
Don’t see Manchester United TV broadcasting too much AFL, NFL or whatever – and why should they?
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
So everyone thinks that’s fine?
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
Personally, I didn’t know that the AFL had a stake in SEN, and I used to enjoy the A-League segments very much, but there is a certain business logic there that you aren’t going to give your rivals a free plug.
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 4:45pm | Report comment
Business logic I suppose, ethically bankrupt in my eyes though (cash for comment pretty much). Can’t believe the AFL would be so bothered by Football to do something like this, gives credence (along with the email from the court trial) to the people I once thought of as nutters that say the AFL/7 buried Football.
And yet a few football writers getting a bit excited garners a backlash.
Oikees brainwashing claims seem true!!
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
Each of the CEOs of each comp, makes decisions that are in the interests of their own comp – so that I can understand.
This is also why you don’t find Bucks insulting AFL supporters and you don’t find Demetriou insulting soccer fans – it’s not good business sense.
But you do find journos like Micallef insulting fans of other sports – he has no business imperative – but you can bet that when Bucks reads what he’s written, he shakes his head in disbelief – it’s simply not helpful in any way, shape or form.
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
“it’s simply not helpful in any way, shape or form”
I agree with that. When it comes down to it the people that like some sort of Football code even if it’s the wrong one are far more similar to ourselves than those crazy nutters that don’t like sport.
At least I enjoy Foz’s writing normally, can’t remember any decent Micallef pieces. I much prefer his brother Sean.
What the AFL has done with SEN does strike me as a very anti competitive measure though and taking advantage of a near monopoly. Can’t really imagine anyone brave enough to stand up to the AFL in Melbourne though. Their the Victorian equivelent of Gunns in Tasmania.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 5:11pm | Report comment
To counter that, local ABC has started calling Victory games (they never used to), so maybe it’s not such a big deal.
But the pre- and post-game shows on SEN were brilliant – always entertaning – especially after a win!!
The best show ever was the time we came back from 2-0 down to beat Sydney 3-2 – - a great evening all round.
Michael C said | October 30th 2009 @ 5:39am | Report comment
re radio SEN, people can choose to believe what they want to – below runs through a bit of info and links that illustrate that SEN was dead in the water, twice, and only getting AFL broadcast rights has saved it – - – the AFL was offered share options but has no management/board role and it’s a 3 year deal. Believe what you want…..it’s pretty obvious that without the AFL, they don’t survive. Sports 927 is the nags station, that’s their bread and butter. SEN couldn’t afford bread with just the soccer and storm.
the AFL was provided share options that if exercised would provide roughly a 5% stake in the station.
Main thing is, the station was launched in 2004,
was going broke in 2005,
and again in 2006.
To that point, they were calling soccer and storm…..
they had to get the AFL and they managed to raise $1.5 mill plus the share options to provide a $2.5 million package to the AFL.
Since then, they have been calling MVFC – although if there’s a conflict, the AFL wins and MVFC is streamed. The big loser is local soccer – they used to call Green Gully vs Heidelberg type games……but, that was hardly sustainable, and the Storm are the other big loser – - – and that’s because those conflict directly with the AFL season.
This offers a nice overview from mid 2008
The share option deal is covered here.. It was Ben Buckley covering it off at the time,
Buckley stated:
“We are not involved in management, we are not involved in the board. We have no other formal association other than as a licensor of our rights. Our relationship with SEN won’t be any different than it will be with 3AW or Triple M or the ABC.”
Quick described the share option offer as a “straight commercial arrangement”.
“We will be maintaining total independence,” he said. “The AFL will have no influence over our coverage and to be honest, they don’t want to either.”
Southern Cross group general manager Graham Mott expressed confidence that SEN would not get favourable treatment as a result of the stock option offer.
“I don’t think the AFL operates that way,” he said. “It wouldn’t be smart on their behalf because it is only a three-year agreement. We will be back at the table in another two years.”
Pacific Star last night announced that it had paid $1.5million for its share of the rights and that 10 million share options would be issued to the AFL each year for the next three. The options will be offered at 6.2c per share. The stock closed at 8c on Wednesday when trading was postponed ahead of the announcement.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 7:51am | Report comment
Robbos
I think there was a small compliment in there somewhere, so I will take it and thank you, heaven knows my low levels of self-esteem and confidence needs all the positive feedback it can muster.
But I agree with you that I do not my finger on the pulse, I’m just another mug punter.
This is simply my honest reaction to both Cockerill and Micallef’s articles – the latter, in particular, appeared extreme and completely unwarranted (noting that he was attacking League, not AFL, so this particular article is not really a defence of the AFL at all).
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:06am | Report comment
I do not see any honest reaction to any negative articles from Richard Hinds or Greg Braum, nor on Dennie Commetti’s negative comments online. But fine keep your focus on the odd negative article on your game, but turn a blind eye on the numerous negative articles on football. Like I said Precious. As MC said it’s called Blind faith. This works for those who are less learned.
Michael C said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Yup,….”Blind Faith”……one album only…….we alright.
main thing is, the moral high ground is a little bit crowded in this country. No one is holier than thou. No one’s excrement don’t stink.
Sadly though…..there’s way, way too much ‘opinion’ dressed up as journalism. And half that opinion seems designed to anger, and be inserted as links in blogs!!!!!
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
never a truer word said MC.
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Thanks Robbos, you saved me making a post.
Exactly my thoughts.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Robbos
I do not believe that any of Hinds, Baum and Commetti wrote with the vindictiveness of Micallef in particular.
Commetti made a statement of fact: there is no way in the world the AFL would close down for 8 weeks – people shouldn’t even contemplate it as a possibility.
Baum’s piece was on the general Australian sporting psyche of favouring those who battle on under adversity rather than those who too commonly feign injury, which is supported by the general Australian community, i.e. it was about sporting culture.
Hinds was probably the most strongly worded of all three – but his point is well made: the FFA is using Government money and Government support in competing against the AFL by shutting them from assets that AFL money has built – as an economic, political and legal argument – it’s actually a very strong one.
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:43am | Report comment
The FFA has Government support because it has national teams, which represents this country, you will find most national teams gets aide from the government. The goverment supports the WC bid just like they supported the Olympic bid. This is not just about the sport, this is a major sporting event.
But like I said you read these articles from Commetti, Hinds & Baum with blind faith and all based on the fact that AFL has no int’l flavour that there is only one culture & no national team or no huge int’l event
Griffo said | October 29th 2009 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Freud, yeah some of it is a bit up and down these days. Perhaps the editors are getting more traffic because of it so down goes the standards. Vitor Sobral and Scott McIntyre are still good value, as is Tim Vickery (wish he would write more than once a month). Am still a fan of the Fozz, especially when he concentrates on youth development, but thought he took a dive when he suggested Verbeek should be sacked before the world cup if he didn’t say ‘attack’ more than twice in one sentance before an FFA lynch mob. That started a mainstream media frenzy that has finally died down a bit.
Fink-e, well, I think that is just the way he rolls…
Freud of Football said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:50pm | Report comment
http://www.theworldgame.com.au/blogs/mike-tuckerman/a-league-can-learn-from-bundesliga-245906
Here that was the one I meant from Tuckerman, utter nonsense, he’s comparing apples with oranges just because he knows a little bit about oranges.
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 12:01am | Report comment
Freud
it wasn’t that bad an article was it?
Freud of Football said | October 30th 2009 @ 12:18am | Report comment
Pip, yes.
The Bundesliga is the main league for the main sport in Germany, people here aren’t interested in foreign leagues (in England there are a lot of SPL fans for example) and people follow teams from birth more-or-less.
Bayern is the only club that has a genuine following across the country as most people support local teams. In Sydney there is support for various other teams not to mention other leagues, in Stuttgart you might find the occasional KSC fan but other than that, its all VFB and a few Kickers fans and it’s the same across the country.
Football is the number one sport in Germany by a long way and its nothing like that in Aus. At an administrative level the games appeal to totally different demographics, in Aus it is a minority sport, in Germany if a company wants to advertise something they go and get someone from the national football team.
In Aus the daily telegraph runs an article about the discrepancy in crowd figures between the official number and those counted in photos – in Germany half of Bild is dedicated to football and all serious newspapers dedicate serious column space to the sport.
It’s a completely different model, the finances are different, professionally there are far more teams that play at a good level, clubs don’t just have a football team but generally have basketball, volleyball, athletics etc. all in one.
“German clubs have been around for decades, fans can travel short distances on a high-speed rail network to stand on well-regulated terraces” – Exactly, they can’t do that in Aus and never will be able to, so why the hell would you compare the two?
If an Adelaide fan wants to see United play away in Brisbane he probably has to take a day off of work with travel arrangements etc. In Germany you go to and from an away game on the other side of the country on the same day.
Just because Mike Tuckerman writes something doesn’t make it the truth. Don’t you ever question the rubbish that these people feed you?
Knives Out said | October 30th 2009 @ 12:26am | Report comment
(in England there are a lot of SPL fans for example)
Absolute dross.
dasilva said | October 30th 2009 @ 12:31am | Report comment
I didn’t think it was a shocking article. It’s not really harmful in any way.
Just a completely pointless article that gives us no real insights and add no use to the Australian game. Hell even Mike hinted this with “even if there are plenty of reasons why comparing the Australian league to the Bundesliga isn’t especially useful.”
Really you can just summarise the major point in the article
We should charge people less money to see the A-league as the bundesliga doesn’t charge fans excessive amount of money. Also we need clubs to connect more with the fans.
Well we didn’t need to compare the A-league to the Bundesliga to state that obvious that we need cheaper tickets and that we shouldn’t get the fans offside to the club (eg Gold Coast).
However I am a fan of Mike. This is just one of his weaker articles.
Freud of Football said | October 30th 2009 @ 12:36am | Report comment
As usual KO you come to a football thread with nothing useful to contribute.
http://cdn.optmd.com/V2/41865/160979/index.html?g=Af////8=&r=www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question99085.html
In 2001, 800,000 people that were born in Scotland lived in England. Of course they wouldn’t follow the SPL – particularly the old firm games which are about religion which you don’t leave behind when you move across the border do you KO? – would they though according to your reasoning.
AndyRoo said | October 30th 2009 @ 9:23am | Report comment
I think it was a fine article because I agree with his conclusion.
A league tickets are expensive. Pretty much the Fury are the only team that have incredibly cheap tickets.
It’s not an economic argument because I think in most of these modern stadiums and considering Pay TV cheap tickets don’t make sense. But politically it’s very important for the A league to get big crowds even if to do so requires operating a somewhat false economy.
And I never support “free” tickets like the AFL does in new markets because it gets people accustomed to freebies and why pay for something you used to get for free.
But get big crowds and you get better press in Australia, simple as that. Say the A league team out drew the Broncos, even if Broncos fans paid 3 times as much to see their team and 400k were watching on FTA the Brisbane Roar would get massive momentum from that.
I think the AFL has benefited from this a lot with the Swans, people always talk about how much support the Swans have and that is largely because they get bums on seats. The amount of people watching on TV is poor. The Swans and Lions all get massive amounts of rest compare to the A league even though they are going up against the NRL.
Obviously at some teams the pricing isn’t as elastic to demand as it is in QLD. But I felt ticket prices was the main reason for the huge drop off in support for the Roar this year. The 19k first round crowd was disappointing and from their it has nose dived.
They now have a $15 bay and from here on in I think the crowds will build.
Chris said | October 29th 2009 @ 6:44am | Report comment
Fact 1: The average AFL/NRL/Rugby fan is more than willing to support the Socceroos/a soccer team as a second team.
Fact 2: The average AFL/NRL/Rugby fan is not willing to give up their games for soccer. Soccer will be at best a second sport.
Why the hell then would soccer people attack AFL/NRL/Union? It just entrenches the us v. them, Aussies v. ethnics mentality that has been the bane of Australian Soccer for years. They aren’t winning any new soccer fans out of it!
Luke W said | October 29th 2009 @ 7:21am | Report comment
Fact 1: Anyone can make up a fact.
Fact 2: See fact 1.
Freud of Football said | October 29th 2009 @ 7:30am | Report comment
I’d like to see some sources for Chris’s facts too.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 7:53am | Report comment
Well, I’m not sure that we are going to find to much to back up Chris’ “facts”, although, intuitively, they make some sense to me.
I”d be happy to offer views on why that is if people are willing to have a sensible discussion about it.
Luke W said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:42am | Report comment
I made the jump from league to football a few years ago. Haven’t looked back. Best decision I ever made.
Jeff Baxter said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
I went the other way – so the world is in balance. Phew!
Luke W said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Well, we both proved the “facts” wrong!
Tom said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:38am | Report comment
As an AFL fan and soccer fan in equal measures, and with plenty of mates who follow both to different degrees, I don’t think its at all a ‘fact’ that AFL and NRL fans wouldn’t accept an adjustment to their season so Australia could host the world cup.
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
At last an AFL fan with reason, something to aspire to Pip. Considering you claim to be a football fan too.
BigAl said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:23am | Report comment
I feel that an accommodation could be made, but plenty money would have to change hands, and not just to cover lost earnings but also goodwill !
Any commercial enterprise worth its salt would expect nothing less.
The only questions is . . . where does this money come from ?
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
BigAl
when it comes down to basic commercial law – of course that’s right – I can only guess that it forms part of the Government’s largesse being splashed around.
I’ve done a very rough back of the envelop calc that the AFL would probably seek compensation of around $500 million if it had to suspend activities for two whole months.
But I doubt it would end there – on top of that, they’d hope to receive a little bit of a “legacy” themselves (especially if the government is flashing the cash).
So a few pet projects woudl no doubt be thrown into the bargain.
Chuq said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:44am | Report comment
What’s this – an AFL/NRL supporter upset by a couple of articles from other codes’ supporters that denigrate them? Soccer has been putting up with this constantly for the last 30 years!
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:49am | Report comment
I know Chuq, abit Precious don’t you think.
eh said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
what’s a code war again?
RangerDick said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
He is entitled to write his piece becasue news limited have had NRL journos bashing football for years. I hope he writes many more venomous articles to catch up with 20 years from the daily tele. Keep it up Micallef.
whiskeymac said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
i like pretty much all the sport on offer by the big 4 – it’s generally a good standard and competitive, and, as such, don’t buy too much into the pissing competitions that erupt weekly on the Roar about whose game isprettiest, manlier, richer, more aussie, more global etc, but in saying that the TWG article was a bit over the top. So even if the treatment in the past of football has been undoubtedly poor (but is actually improving i think) IMO virulent attacks on NRL and it’s supporters seems purile at best, especially considering that the whole WC issue is uncertain. I dont think NRl etc wld stand in the way of Oz getting the WC, but to fire off about something that hasnt even happened now is very premature and antagonistic.
Luke W said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Did anyone see the Daily Telegraph’s article today regarding Sydney FC’s crowd against the Brisbane Roar last weekend? They claim that the FFA/Sydney FC added 2000 people to the official total of 8000 odd. How did the Daily Telegraph come to this conclusion? They counted how many people were in the stadium from photographs!
I hope now that NRL/AFL fans can see what football supporters are forced to put up with from the mainstream media. The Telegraph has taken a match with a one-off low crowd (due to torrential rain before the match), ignoring the fact Sydney FC’s crowds have been increasing match by match this season back to solid averages, just to push this stupid agenda. Then they claim the figure was fudged, again ignorant to the fact that in the rain, many people would be stading undercover!
Luke W said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Continuing with that theme, the Telegraph also ran a story a few days earlier about the 12k crowd in London to see the Australia vs New Zealand rugby league 4 Nations clash. Despite only 12k people turning out to see the best two sides in the world, the Telegraph spun it with the crowd “detonating” in the opening minutes with a “cacophony of sound”. I’m not doubting the atmosphere on the ground, but it’s two completely different approaches towards two matches that had lower than expected crowds.
And you wonder why guys like Cockerill and Micallef have the occasional outburts.
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
They once did this to Souths or Penrith Rugby League team too.
San Jorge said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Luke, its not just A-League that they’ve done this to. They ran a similar story about a Souths or Roosters game a while back, keep your panties on mate. Don’t even start on media coverage
True Tah said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Luke W
I wouldnt place too much faith in the Telecrap, and rugby league clubs have been putting up with this for quite some time.
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:52am | Report comment
For every 1 shocking story on RL in the Daily Terror there are 10 good stories about RL & it’s players.
With Soccah, they only print the bad stuff.
Michael C said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:56am | Report comment
“the fact Sydney FC’s crowds have been increasing match by match this season ”
SFC crowds this year,
14.9K
11.7K
17K at the SCG
10.4K
13.9K
8.4K
pretty well on par with V4 avg of 12.4K. The whole point of an average figure is that you get the odd day of bad weather.
Still a fair way from V1 16.7K and V3 16.4K.
Still though – pretty ordinary for the flagship team in the home of soccer in this country.
at any rate…..I’ve gotta point out…..last weekend we attended a lunch time out door wedding in the Yarra Valley in glorious low 20’s and perfectly still……ah, paradise. (btw – initial type…..’weeding’…..hmm, not quite).
Robbo said | October 29th 2009 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
“17K at the SCG” – Actually 16.6K at the SFS. Sydney have never player at the SCG that I am aware of.
That said – you are right – their crowds are very poor for a city of 4.5 million. Especially when soccer is meant to be taking over this country. 8K is less than one in every 550 people!
The Link said | October 29th 2009 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
There was a plan to have the Fury game at the SCG – why didn’t that go ahead?
There’s a good tradition of Soccer at the SCG. Sydney FC should play a game there from time to time.
I noticed they have a game at Parra Stadium in February.
Robbo said | October 29th 2009 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
The SCG is a horrible place to watch Union, League or Soccer. That said I love the ground so much that they should definitely take more games there – if only for the tradition. I would love to see the Roosters, Waratahs, Souths and Sydney FC all take a game or two there each year.
Michael C said | October 30th 2009 @ 5:22am | Report comment
my mistake,
although, in fairness – the A-League website still lists the SCG as the venue for the completed match in the “Match Summary” section……although in the fixture and ‘report’ it is listed as SFS.
I’m sure they’ll bring it into line….eventually.
keeper11 said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Chuq ..couldn’t agree more.
sensitive souls these footy diehards of the traditional sports…
giving sh#t to ‘tha sockah’ was up there on australias sporting media’s favourite pastime…
( see todays Telerag ..upto its usual putrid self…
)now a couple of openly pro-football articles and its ‘boohooo’
Geez…denigrating someone else to make yourself feel better …
AFL/NRL types and their media mates have lived in this bubble of superiority for so long…
the ‘black’ fella of australian sport is finally speaking up and seems they just don’t like it…….
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:24am | Report comment
This article was about precisely that – football’s new found sense of its own importance – did people read something else into it?
Luke W said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Don’t plead innocent. The whole article has an undercurrent that the new found sense of confidence is not justified, written knowing full well the code war that would start (this is The Roar, afterall).
Freud of Football said | October 29th 2009 @ 5:36pm | Report comment
No Luke, the whole article was a summary of Pip’s comments as posted on Chuq’s piece .
Very well done Pip, I’m sure you knew this would generate some interest seeing as it’s just an extension of the aforementioned article spun into your own opinions.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 6:28pm | Report comment
Luke
You use the word “undercurrent” as if I’m hiding something when my conclusion is quite clear.
Soccer fans have taken great strength from the involvement of Lowy, we can all agree on that – it was he who started up the NSL back in 1977 – Australia’s first national club comp of any discription.
He pretty much got the Socceroos over the line in 2005 – we all accept that – he deserves all the accolades and it is proper that soccer fans draw great inspiration from him.
Then you have this WC bid, and the temporary strong, close links we have with FIFA (which may be strengthened with a successful bid, or might vanish as quickly as they arose).
This has given some even more strength, more courage, more motivation – to say incredibly stupid things.
That is definitely a false confidence.
The very people that soccer needs to hook the big one requires the goodwill of some big hitters in Australia – people that Micallef is insulting unnecessarily.
There is a false confidence, and a false optimism that FIFA will simply walk in and steamroll everyone – some soccer fans are truly hoping for this – as if FIFA has the power to storm Parliament or something.
There’s a new found courage to viciously attack supporters of other codes, that their time has finally come, that they may now seek their own retribution for decades of neglect.
It’s this latter courage that is not based on solid foundations – what’s more – it’s such poor timing and completely unwarranted (displays of invincibility).
Afterall, even in this day of instant communications, Geneva is still a long, long way away.
dasilva said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:25am | Report comment
In the end those articles are pretty counter productives.
You are not going to get anywhere by insulting NRL and AFL. As Pip and Geoff Lord pointed out 50% of MV members are members of AFL club. It seems to me that AFL fans are more understanding of the concept of supporting your local club then a lot of football fans in Australia. The AFL mentality that they don’t care about what other countries think about their sport is actually pretty useful thing when compared with the Eurosnobs who will make unflattering comparison of A-league to overseas league. So quite frankly I don’t think Football is in any position to burn any bridges with other football codes.
I know some people will end up saying that Football get some sticks over the years and now we are paying back.
Look just because we were attacked years ago doesn’t mean that we have to be arseholes in return.
Living well is the best revenge not retaliating.
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:35am | Report comment
Very good attitude to have.
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Dasilva, where is Football burning it’s bridges? We are just sick of copping the crap. The people attacking football are not those who will convert to the game at a later date. There are many like you who follow more than 1 code, so am I, but my love for football is far far bigger than my love of Rugby league.
Eurosnobs have every right to prefer overseas league to the A-League. You have no issues calling these guys Eurosnobs.
It’s these so called Eurosnobs who has a better chance of converting to the A-League than diehard AFL fans. So be careful what bridges you are burning.
Any reasonable football follower understands where football stands in this country & they are (in most cases) alot happier than they were 5 years ago. We are leading the way in participation & we have the world game, but as far as being in the Australian pysche, we are way, way behind both the Rugby League & the Aussie Rules. The potential to grow is far bigger than either Rugby League & AFL, this is a fact.
dasilva said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Look I was up in arms just as much as anyone when Rebecca Wilson posted her drivel about Football in Australia. So I agree that I don’t like copping crap by other codes.
However I don’t think articles like Cockerill or Micallef are really productive for our cause (or the likes of Foster). WE really shouldn’t be going along attacking other codes.
Let’s look at this way. We are making a world cup bid. Instead of having a bid that is using solely rectangle stadiums and getting the government to fund that, we are also including oval stadiums that AFL regularly using. Therefore we need AFL to do us a favour and let us access to the stadium. Well what a great way to get that support by attacking them for not letting us used something that they legally have exclusive access to. The fact is AFL or NRL are not sabotaging the bid. The only people who are sabotaging our bid are the commonwealth and state government more then anything else
To be quite honest, I seriously doubt the assertion that people who are solely european football followers are more likely to make a switch to the A-league in the near future. It will take a generation before people will grow up in the atmosphere to support your local A-league club.I have taken european football followers to the a-league matches and they just leave concluding that A-league is boring. The ex-NSL brigade a fervently against supporting A-league as a principle.
My gut feeling is telling me that it’s easier to get an AFL fan to support the A-league then to get the die hard euro-fans and ex-NSL fan to support the A-league club.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
Das
personally, I thought Bucks should never have given that article the time of day, let alone do an official response to it – it really wasn’t deserving of such an exalted status.
Then, with plenty getting stuck into her, at the end of it all, I ended up agreeing with her that the response was largely misogynistic.
True Tah said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
dasilva
who attacked futbol years ago?
Most of futbol’s problems in this country are self-inflicted, and some of the old Soccer Australia management was diabolical. The fact that the clubs were ethnically-based for so long really prevented it from being widely followed by a wider section of the community. I cant speak for Melbourne, but in Sydney, rugby league has for sometime been the most inclusive sport by a margin. And its clear that many immigrants wanted to support a sport that allowed them to interract with people from differant backgrounds to their own.
A lot of people pointed to the fact that the Socceroos are representative of our multicultural history. The 2006 Socceroos had over 30% of their players with Yugoslav backgrounds, I wasnt sure if this was reflective of the Australian population as a whole. Relative to AFL/RL, futbol has not historically embraced our first Australians, Im sure even more Aboriginals have played union for Australia than futbol.
The fact is futbol has been the biggest participation sport since the 18th century and it has over 2m registered players. It was the first sport that I (and pretty much every other guys who i have played rugby or league with) ever played. This is not something that just happened because of the Crawford Report. Yet despite this massive natural advantage over any other sport, AFL and RL are the two dominant professional sports in Australia.
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:31am | Report comment
This doesn’t change the fact that what you say is true. I agree it’s time for Football to get over how big the other codes are. They do provide a healthy measuring stick though of progress and what’s possible.
But as too “who attacked futbol years ago?”
The very first Futbal game played in Victoria was attacked by the Age describing it as only suitable for Degenerates when compared to the great Australian game.
It’s been downhill ever since.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Maybe they witnessed some hooligans and ultras lighting flares?
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:36am | Report comment
I think back then flares would have been a real novelty that would have packed the crowds in.
Ultras in those days had to throw candles onto the field.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:46am | Report comment
…although gun powder existed.
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Ok you caught me out, I didn’t make it to the game as I had to clean a chimney and then read about a game played between East Harford and Stirling old boys in a journal of an English sailor…. the very first Euro Snob.
dasilva said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:48am | Report comment
who attacked futbol years ago?
There’s story about people going on football pitches and putting shards of glass on the pitch to sabotage football in school grounds
Attempt to exclude football from schools by other codes
Articles linking football to homosexuality that Warren spoke a lot about.
Linking Football with un-Australian, that it’s only played by wogs.
There was a parade for a NSW state league side that Warren played for that won the league. During the parade he ended up getting abused and heckle by the local population.
then there’s Channel 7 attempt to bury football in Australia
Although I do believe that majority of problems with FOotball in Australia were mostly self-inflicted. i don’t think the other codes were particularly innocent either.
True Tah said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
dasilva
Im not sure about Sydney, but I have never heard of people putting glass on futbol grounds, and in Sydney, futbol has been in most private schools for the past 20 years at least.
Not sure about the whole linking futbol with homosexuality has any grounds, considering futbol itself has a pretty poor history of treating homesexuals, wheres rugby league is a bit more “enlightened” in that sense.
Look at the UK, if you say you play rugby or league, most blokes will think you’re a fat poof, despite the fact that most pommy blokes are generally overweight themselves!
Freud of Football said | October 29th 2009 @ 5:46pm | Report comment
“Most of futbol’s problems in this country are self-inflicted” – I’m sorry but how can you say football creates its own problems?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QI8cDVIOYg
That’s the sort of ignorant rubbish the game has to deal with in Aus, that is Australia’s media, all sections of it are anti-football except the multi-cultural SBS and of course FOX who stand to make a buck or two out of it.
Boofheads/household names like Rebecca Wilson and Greg Baum write their completely insular views on a topic they obviously have no idea about (football) and this is for many, the only exposure they get to the game.
If Reyne had of said the same about AFL or the NRL everyone would have torn him apart for his insolence but seeing as half the country still think football is a “Wogs game” then this sort of thing goes relatively undetected.
True Tah said | October 29th 2009 @ 6:00pm | Report comment
Freud
issues with management, I take it you have never heard of Tony Lazzabozetta, he used to be a big wig in the old Soccer Australia set up. He owned a travel agency which the Socceroos had to use whenever they travelled representing Australia. He was from the school of management which rejected a massive cash offer from Kerry Packer in the late 1970s/early 1980s. Ever wondered why Frank Lowy left the game for so long after putting in a heap of effort at Hakoah?
The fact that for the greater part of its history in Australia, futbol at the highest level in Australia was based on largely ethnic lines is whose fault? Was it the fault of racist, old-school AFL and RL clubs who wouldnt let new Australians in? Take it the names El Masri, Elias, Fenech, Yakich, Krilich, Conescu, Sedaris, Skandalis, Peponis are foreign to you?
Freud of Football said | October 29th 2009 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
TT,
I don’t really follow your line of thought here.
It is the media that exposes the game to the public, football has always been marginalised by Australian media outlets. The game is far more popular than the NBL or Netball and receives little more coverage. Most of the reporting on the sport revolve around “negative” issues as the journalists are too lazy and disinterested to report anything knowledgable about the sport.
“Futbol” was played along ethnic lines as it was the game of many immigrants, however many more changed to other codes and you wouldn’t hear a bad word in the press about R. Barassi or S. Silvagni would you?
I’m sure Reyne knows who those guys are but the very anglo-saxon name “Johnny Warren” probably doesn’t ring a bell.
Point being that Australian’s are accepting of immigrants, god the country was built on their backs so long as they play what we perceive to be “Australian” sports (AFL, Rugby, Cricket).
Football is still viewed as ethnic as it doesn’t have the traditions in the country and this comes predominantly from the media who like to beat that drum any chance they get, it gives biggots like Ms Wilson (is she married? Can’t imagine anyone wanting to spend 5 minutes with her let alone a life time) the chance to express their veiled racist views in the public domain.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
Freud
there’s some truth in that.
On the other hand, SBS has been promoting soccer (almost exclusively), for over 25 years.
On top of that, right up to the mid 70s, the VSL used to be on commercial FTA (one live game per week).
Freud of Football said | October 29th 2009 @ 6:57pm | Report comment
Point Pip?
SBS is not a mainstream media outlet are are you disagreeing with that?
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:01pm | Report comment
Freud
that’s true – but it still amounts to a shitload of coverage – which pretty much most of us have enjoyed at one time or another.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Good post Das.
My 8 year old son is about to go through his first reconciation (or confession, as we used to call it when I was a kid).
The main mesage is one of forgiveness.
Con Stamocostas said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Nice one Pip.
The media love get the gloves out and have a bit of a bitch fight.
Gweeds said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:47am | Report comment
I think that some football people (both journalists and fans) have developed a big chip on their shoulder over the years being denigrated and I think they are now over-reacting.
The issue here is that it makes the whole debate pretty unbalanced. Let’s take the A-League for example. I believe that the drop in attendances are just a natural re-adjustment of crowds to a more sustainable level. There are a couple of teams (Gold Coast and Newcastle in particular) that should do better, but overall it is not to the bad old days of the later years of the NSL. Of course initially the crowds were much better than expected, and some fans, after seeing their sport being belittled for decades became over-optimistic about the popularity of the code.
The A-League is still a new competition and will need time to re-adjust itself. But many of the same fans that thought that fotball would take over the country are running around with their arms in the air shouting ‘panic!’ and of course those who were irritated by all this ‘football uber alles’ talk are going ‘na na na naaa na..I told you!’
The fact that the government has put lots of money and effort in this bid, and the fact that the magnitude of the event is huge is too much of a temptation for some football people to use as a tool to assert some superiority, but all they are doing is just pissing people off. We don’t need to do this.
I must say though that what we have to challenge is not whether other codes protest that they would have to stop their seasons etc. (which they are entitled to IMHO) but are the comments from some quarters that providing all this support to the World Cup is somewhat un-Australian.
Midfielder said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:50am | Report comment
Gweeds
Good post as too Das above..
Football has copped heaps for years … that it exposed itself was sad… what is more sad nay break down and cry emotion is that the Old Soccer needed to be reported on … those in management… those who ran the old NSL clubs… but the media by and large left them alone and kicked the game itself…. thats what hurts a lot…
Having said that the other codes have a good arguement… I am still unsure if those comps are closed or just the stadiums … me thinks it’s just the stadiums and RU & Cricket tests… as the other codes by and large do not get huge numbers jumping on plans to watch interstate games…
Also for how long … I assume at most four 4 weeks…. and those cities that do not get the finals only two weeks…
Somebody from FFA should actually state what it is … or maybe they are waiting a FIFA response….
Meaning two things 1) both NRL & AFL close for between 2 & 4 weeks and loose stadium use for 6 to 8 weeks. 2) loose stadiums for 6 to 8 weeks…
Either way both can be worked out I am sure …. but we need to know what is the ask….so planning can be done … otherwise someone will write soon …. if not alredy…
AFL & NRL ….. need to cancel their seasons in the world cup year… all AFL & RL & RU grounds at all levels are to be converted to Football grounds… All media reports about Football most be positive…
Freud of Football said | October 29th 2009 @ 5:47pm | Report comment
mid…field….er………..do…you….know……………how…annoy..ing…….it…is……to…………….read……..your…….dots?
keeper11 said | October 29th 2009 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
Seems football can only be dicussed if its perceived as either :. .
1. an all conqeuring foreign threat ready to devour our fragile ‘real australian’ dinky di local codes…
or..
2. a perennial joke …always in ‘crisis’ and doomed to struggle on the margins of australian mainstream sport….
me thinks reality is somewhere between but that doesn’t suit the paper editors and some on this forum i guess…;
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
…or:
3. doing ok, much better than 5 years ago, worthwhile place in the Australian sporting landscape, pretty good product, but making out as if they are bigger than they really are and deriding of all those who follow something else.
Luke W said | October 29th 2009 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Most popular sport in Australia. FACT.
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Is this why some people spend so much of their time on football blogs putting it down Luke W?
Michael C said | October 29th 2009 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
by what measure?
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
I think Luke is referring to soccer having the highest participation rates in Australia, which it does by a long way.
Another measure might be the ratings that the Socceroos pulled during the WC in 2006 – which were higher than the AFL/NRL grand finals.
If Luke has other measures he is referring to, it would be great to see them, no problem from me.
Luke W said | October 29th 2009 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
Pip, I like the cut of your jib. But yeah, combine all the mediums of football, it is most popular.
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:10pm | Report comment
Luke
I don’t really understand what you mean by “combine all the mediums”.
I’m not really all that motivated to do this, but I could come up with a very long list of indicators and metrics that show the exact opposite.
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
fair assumption, so why do you spend so much time deriding the A-league when it’s so insignificant, is it any opposition big or small is opposition? Is this why yoy deride the sport so much?
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Robbos
Is that question directed at me?
I actually like the A-League. I watch far more A-League than I watch of any other form of soccer. I never miss a Victory match.
Das said it above somewhere – Melburnians really follow their clubs.
Firestarter Bob said | October 29th 2009 @ 3:36pm | Report comment
Didn’t Cockerill start out as an Australian rules football journo for the Sydney Morning Herald in the 1980s? Maybe he converted!
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
I thought he was from NZ?
Tifosi said | October 29th 2009 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
Look what the daily telegraph came up with today.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/soccer/sydney-fcs-2000-missing-fans/story-e6frey4r-1225792222477
Someone spent time analysing pictures to determine how many people went to the Sydney FC game on a horrible weekend !!
What possible reason could anyone think of that this is a valuable use of time.
Then you wonder why the likes of micalleff/cockerill have a go.
Freud of Football said | October 29th 2009 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
Hilarious. Really, their “picture analysis [that] was so detailed” was probably some git who took photo’s of each section of the stadium at half time and then spent 10 hours counting heads, got a close all-excited when he saw an ex-red devil and got a few close-ups of Dwight Yorke no doubt.
“But neither the Trust nor Sydney FC officials would sit down with reporters to analyse the pictures.” – Any wonder, would anyone sit down with the sort of goon who counts heads in photo’s? I mean really, if you are working for Sydney FC and you get contacted by some journo who says something along the lines of:
“eh mate, I took some photos at the stadium on the weekend, just finished counting heads, I only counted 6266 so why didn’t I get the reported 8456?”
Wouldn’t you be tempted to answer “because you can’t count that high”? I mean really, this is farcical, that is the nonsense they publish in a newspaper, not some local rag out in the sticks but in The Daily Telegraph in Sydney! They want to contact Sydney FC and talk about pictures of the crowd, like they haven’t got better things to do?
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:08pm | Report comment
It’s an absolutely idiotic article – even half the comments say so.
Kurt said | October 30th 2009 @ 1:00am | Report comment
That is a pretty weird article. I remember a couple of years ago I went to watch Hawthorn play Carlton at the dome and the posted attendance was close to a ground record – 55K+. But TV showed big banks of empty seats around the middle tier and it was suggested the attendance was overstated. What they didn’t show were the literally thousands of people crammed into every bar & restaurant (I was one of them) because it was an absolutely freezing night and even with the roof closed it was pretty unpleasant in the stands. So assuming a couple of thousand people were huddled under cover out of sights of the spy satellite is actually pretty reasonable.
Lmacca said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:15pm | Report comment
If I can add some context, Phillip Micallef was a football writer/sub-editor at the Telegraph for many years. He eventually left (on what terms I’m not sure) and headed to TWG site. Ever since, he has been very quick to jump to football’s defence. He has a slanging match it seems with Phil Rothfield, the sports editor of the Telegraph and possibly the biggest football basher in Sydney media. Which is why you see so many negativefootball articles in his sports section.
So Micallef appears to think he needs to combat ever anti-football story with a bit of league bashing of his own. I think it’s totally counter-productive, but it seems like he feels that he’s in the trenches so he’s taking what shots he can.
If football fans can get past the siege mentality that has been around for a long time we’d go a long to finding greater acceptance in the wider community. As has been mentioned countless times, participation rates are high, so it can’t be all bad!
Pippinu said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
Lmacca
good to hear from you and thanks for the context – I didn’t know Micallef’s background at all.
Knives Out said | October 30th 2009 @ 12:43am | Report comment
‘As usual KO you come to a football thread with nothing useful to contribute.
http://cdn.optmd.com/V2/41865/160979/index.html?g=Af////8=&r=www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question99085.html
In 2001, 800,000 people that were born in Scotland lived in England. Of course they wouldn’t follow the SPL – particularly the old firm games which are about religion which you don’t leave behind when you move across the border do you KO? – would they though according to your reasoning.’
I don’t have anything positive to add? Says the Roarer who is renowned for contributing nothing beyond hideously arrogant and childishly rude throwaway lines and attempting to offer guidance to professional Roarers on how and what to contribute. I see you still haven’t spent any dictionary time since I last undermined your attempts at pomposity, nor have you bothered to read people’s general responses to you. I can only presume that you’re either very conflicted. I suggest you reacquiant yourself with all those wonderful times you attempted to rubbish people with one off ‘contributions’, and perhaps peruse a few old threads. Anyhow, you stated that a lot of EPL fans followed the SPL. That’s patent nonsense and something that your excellent statistic reveals. A minority of ex pats follow the SPL. What the old firm derby has to do with anything, I do not know. It further undermines your suggestion that the EPL harbours lots of SPL fans. Let’s face it, you don’t know anything about English football or the English context.
Freud of Football said | October 30th 2009 @ 1:08am | Report comment
As usual you are wrong. – Here is the link I was meant to post earlier: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/countries/html/scotland.stm
I never stated that a lot of “EPL fans followed the SPL.” – what I wrote was “in England there are a lot of SPL fans” – A huge difference between the two, one is a league, one is a country so make sure you don’t get it wrong when you attempt to quote me. Your assertions that I know nothing about England prove your ignorance – as if you had already done that often enough.
KO, slow down and read this a few times until this sinks into your head, I’ll explain this quite clearly but only once::
Here are two few key facts you need to know.
1) Football is the national sport of scotland – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Scotland#Association_Football
2) Most football fans in Scotland follow one of the old firm teams – http://www.roymorgan.com/news/press-releases/2006/490/
So if we put two and two together we can see just how huge the support is for old firm teams, this is widely accepted by the media, not just something made up by myself.
In fact according to the list – http://www.roymorgan.com/news/press-releases/2006/490/ – about 2.8 Million people in Britain follow one of the old firm teams.
According to the BBC – http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/countries/html/scotland.stm – “Of the 5.2m people born in Scotland who were living in Britain in 2001, 4.4m of these were within Scotland itself” – so roughly 800,000 Scots live in other parts of Britain – only 24,000 in Wales.
It’s fair to assume that the majority of old firm fans are made up of the 5.2 Million Scots, so if 53.85% support an old firm team, in theory about 430,000 Scots living in England support (or identify with) an Old Firm team.
Even if that is an inflated figure, I would say 100,000+ fans would be a considerable number in a foreign country and I’m quite sure that both Rangers and Celtic have that many fans in England.
Knives Out said | October 30th 2009 @ 1:25am | Report comment
You’re right, My mistake about the EPL. However, stating that there a lot of SPL fans in England with the implication that they are pervading the entire British football leagues even further reduces your assertion due to the increase in numbers than if you had said the EPL. Also, the SPL is more than two clubs. To state that the SPL has a lot of fans in England would necessitate a discernible variation. I think what you meant to say is that there is a specific amount of Glasgow ex pats. This is not made clear: ‘The Bundesliga is the main league for the main sport in Germany, people here aren’t interested in foreign leagues (in England there are a lot of SPL fans for example) and people follow teams from birth more-or-less.’ The implication is that a lot of English football fans like Scottish football, hence my original, and correct, inference.
Freud of Football said | October 30th 2009 @ 1:46am | Report comment
Ok, I can see that it can be read like that, certainly wasn’t my intention as I don’t think the english are great supporters of the SPL or either old firm club.
However the old firm teams don’t just have support from Glaswegians, it’s Scots in general and as such I think the number of Scotsmen in England would be proportional to the number of fans of the old firm clubs in England.
Knives Out said | October 30th 2009 @ 1:51am | Report comment
‘as such I think the number of Scotsmen in England would be proportional to the number of fans of the old firm clubs in England.’
You mean that if 55% of Scottish fans living in Scotland supported the big Glasgow clubs that that statistic would be represented with Scottish people living in England?
Freud of Football said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:02am | Report comment
I mean that there are 5.2 Million Scots, my assumption is that the 2.8 Million fans of Rangers and Celtic in BRITAIN are predominantly Scottish (Not Glaswegian, Scottish).
Hence, I think it is also a relatively fair assumption that if roughly 53% of Scots support one or the other Old Firm team, that of the app. 800,000 Scots living in England roughly 53% of them would also be a supporter of either Rangers or Celtic because Rangers and Celtic draw fans from across Scotland.
Maybe a few of the Scots that relocate support an EPL team but I’d imagine there would still, either way, be far more than 100,000 fans of Rangers or Celtic inside England and that is a considerably large figure.
eh said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
celtic has a large support in Ireland, and unsuprisignly amongst catholics in the UK…. they have good ties with clubs like Man Utd.
Knives Out said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:35am | Report comment
What does ex-pats following their domestic teams have to do with German fans not being interested in foreign leagues?
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 8:13am | Report comment
Have I missed something?
Freud of Football said | October 30th 2009 @ 8:28am | Report comment
No, KO comes trolling when he sees my name in the recent comments. Then he doesn’t bother reading what I write, just likes to go on little rants about how I’m always wrong and then ignore facts when I support my arguments with facts.
The usual.
Knives Out said | October 31st 2009 @ 12:15am | Report comment
Excuse me, can you stop being so glibly rude. The fact of the matter is that I misread something you wrote, however your utterly appalling comprehension of the English language was deeply misleading which means that technically I was correct. You have some outstanding nerve to suggest that I come trolling when you appear to spend your rather conflicted Roar life writing churlish rubbish on other people articles, something that quite a few people have picked up on. I asked you a basic question and the reason you haven’t given me a decent answer beyond your usual witless juvenile sarcasm is because you have written a load of rubbish. What on earth does a collection of Scottish ex pats living in England have to do with the lack of willingness of German people to accept foreign sport? Absolutely nothing.
The usual.
Freud of Football said | October 31st 2009 @ 12:48am | Report comment
No, as usual you simply didn’t read what I wrote. It’s obvious and don’t claim you did anything but, you saw what I wrote in the recent comments and saw one sentence and commented on it:
“(in England there are a lot of SPL fans for example)
Absolute dross.”
That’s all you bothered to comment, you had no idea that I was talking about the A-League.
As you always do, you don’t bother to see what anyone’s point is, you just shoot your mouth off and then when I explain myself and found my argument (I pretty conclusively showed that there are a lot of SPL fans in England with facts, something you haven’t ever done) and I explained this one single line of my comment over 5 comments.
You are obviously too thick to understand anything without having it spelled out for you which is why I have to explain the correlation between Germans & Scottish ex-pats, just for you because you are simply too thick to see that wasn’t at all my point, go back and READ what I wrote, don’t ask ridiculous questions and wonder why I call you a troll when you’re contribution consists of “absolute droll”.
One last time, just for you because everybody else understood apart from you.
In Germany, football is the main sport and the Bundesliga is the only league ANYONE cares about. In England, there are still a lot of SPL fans because of the large migrant Scottish population who do not give up their affiliation with Rangers & Celtic as it has as much to do with religion as it does football.
Germany too has a huge migrant population but the Turkish kids here aren’t all Gala or Besiktas supporters, they support German teams and that was my point, in Germany, no-one cares about any other league, the Turkish and Eastern European migrants adopt local German teams, it’s all about the Bundesliga or even the Second and third tiers…
Now getting back to the original point…
Hence for Mike Tuckerman to compare the Bundesliga and the A-League is pointless. Australian’s care more about other codes than the A-League and more about other football leagues than the A-League. Germans only care about the Bundesliga and as such, how can one compare the two?
Is that simple enough?
Knives Out said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:11am | Report comment
Yes, I did comment on the one sentence because it struck me as being utterly ridiculous, and given as it is the same thing that you are prone to doing on countless other threads I felt you needed a dose of reality. I firmly believe that you have no realistic grasp of English football whatsoever, and it irks me to see you attempting to pontificate, as it appears to irk others. Regardless, I admitted that I misread the initial comment, however that is now irrelevant seeing as you admitted that what you had written lent intself to what I had thought it had. In short, your weak grasp of the language and grammar meant that you hadn’t actually written what you meant to which leads you with a rather large hole to drag yourself out of.
–
‘That’s all you bothered to comment, you had no idea that I was talking about the A-League.’
That’s guesswork on your part. It strikes me as rather bizarre to think that somebody would merely read only a handful of words.
–
‘As you always do, you don’t bother to see what anyone’s point is, you just shoot your mouth off and then when I explain myself and found my argument (I pretty conclusively showed that there are a lot of SPL fans in England with facts, something you haven’t ever done) and I explained this one single line of my comment over 5 comments.’
You didn’t conclusively show anything at all. I suggest you re-read some of the verbs you used when attempting to ‘conclusively prove’ your point.
I have never used facts? When have I needed to? I don’t make broad statements that require empirical evidence. Do you mean facts like where you lived in England, where you sat at Old Trafford, what sport you were professional at, what papers you have written and all other questions that you conveniently avoid. You don’t have a pet grasshopper that sits on your shoulder do you?
–
‘You are obviously too thick to understand anything without having it spelled out for you which is why I have to explain the correlation between Germans & Scottish ex-pats, just for you because you are simply too thick to see that wasn’t at all my point, go back and READ what I wrote, don’t ask ridiculous questions and wonder why I call you a troll when you’re contribution consists of “absolute droll”.’
Right… (Btw, it’s very poor sentence structure to use thick twice, and in the manner that you do.) I didn’t ever type the words ‘absolute droll’. (Btw, not ” but ‘. You see?) Now, let’s compare:
‘The Bundesliga is the main league for the main sport in Germany, people here aren’t interested in foreign leagues (in England there are a lot of SPL fans for example) and people follow teams from birth more-or-less.’
The correlation is what exactly? Is English your first language? I don’t recall any of the below being mentioned in the rant that began with the above paragraph:
‘In Germany, football is the main sport and the Bundesliga is the only league ANYONE cares about. In England, there are still a lot of SPL fans because of the large migrant Scottish population who do not give up their affiliation with Rangers & Celtic as it has as much to do with religion as it does football.
Germany too has a huge migrant population but the Turkish kids here aren’t all Gala or Besiktas supporters, they support German teams and that was my point, in Germany, no-one cares about any other league, the Turkish and Eastern European migrants adopt local German teams, it’s all about the Bundesliga or even the Second and third tiers…’
It’s surely a coincidence that you didn’t actually write any of that, because to the trained eye what you said is that Germans don’t follow non-German football, but English people follow the SPL, but then I suppose you’ve already admitted that.
‘The Bundesliga is the main league for the main sport in Germany, people here aren’t interested in foreign leagues (in England there are a lot of SPL fans for example) and people follow teams from birth more-or-less.’
Anyway, beside all that silliness you’re attempting to contrast Scottish immigrants to Turkish immigrants. On what basis and why?
Chuq said | October 30th 2009 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
Another example of what football has had to put up with …
Over the last year, every anti-football article has had some reference to “taxpayer funded” this and “government money” that.
Now we have some facts to counter this – from Mike Cockerill from The Age, today:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/forget-turf-wars–everyone-will-gain-from-cup/2009/10/29/1256405474204.html?page=fullpage
“Since Frank Lowy took over in 2003, football has received about $77 million from the Federal government, of which $45m has been allocated to fund a World Cup bid which ultimately benefits all. In roughly the same time, AFL has received about $453m from the three tiers of government – almost six times that received by football.”
Michael C said | October 30th 2009 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
allow me to correct Mr.Cockerill (who has zero credibility).
he states “From the $77m it has received from Canberra for redevelopment work at the MCG”
1. -The AFL DOES NOT have any stake in the MCG.
2. – the funds were from the State Government, NOT Canberra,
3. – the funds went to the MCC, who run/own the MCG, on behalf of the state govt appointed MCG Trust.
This relates to the $434million Northern/Olympic Stand project, from 2002-2006 and finished in time for the Commonwealth Games.
The ONLY Govt funding was the $77 million from the State Govt.
Canberra offered $90 million, but, with Industrial Relations strings attached.
The STate Govt said no thanks, and put up $77 million,
and the MCC got left short changed.
The only recent Canberra ‘largesse’ towards the MCG was a $25 million grant towards the National Sports Museum within the MCG complex.
again – nothing whatsoever to do with the MCG.
IF – after that, you deemed that Cockerill is correct in attributing that $77 million to the AFL (god knows how, ‘cos, according to Cockerill and Ben Buckley the other day – the MCG redevelopments have been for the 2000 Olympic soccer tournement?!?!), so, if after all this, you still buy what Cockerill is peddling,….then, surely he’s forgotten to attribute the $300million from the new Soccer/Rugby stadium in Melbourne to either the FFA or NRL.
So please. Tell me I’m wrong. Proove it please. Cockerill couldn’t be that incompetant could he? (and if not, then, he’s obviously doing the cheerleading on behalf of some soccer mates in power at the FFA??).
AndyRoo said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
You dont have the title deed but you have the lease until 2032.
Were you Christopher Skase’s lawyer, no no your honor we don’t own it….we are just renting it forever.
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
Correction: renting it during the Winter months – an important distinction.
Cricket has been able to enjoy the fruits of what aussie rules pays for – and that’s the way it has always been.
Have you ever wondered why the cricket grounds in England are pretty small in comparison a ground like the MCG?
The Bishop said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Cockerill has zero credibility? Compared to yourself, I assume Michael C?
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Cockerill reckons the AFL ha recieved half a billion dollars since 2003?
You can look through the financial statements of the AFL and I can promise you, you’ll barely see a cent that has come via the Government.
The AFL makes its money from TV rights and memberships – it has no need of Governemnt largesse.
The very large crowds that come to the MCG and the Dome fund those grounds – not the Government.
AndyRoo said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
So your calling him a liar?
Michael C at least made the point that Swan Street doesn’t seem to be on their.
and I prefer RedB’s and James responce which is basically “so what, tough titties”
Just stick to the Herald Sun and SEN and you won’t have to worry about such illuminating stories. Even if it is a bit odd he didn’t quote a source
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
He is 100% incorrect to suggest that the AFL has received half a billion dollars from Government in the last 6 years.
The AFL gets next to zero money from the Government (for a short while it was receving a few bucks to pay for some indigenous youth program).
AndyRoo said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
It’s the same as the FFA’s indegenous Festival. The money doesn’t go to the FFA it goes to the Festival, but that money should be labeled as money to Football…. and it is.
Robbos said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
I agree with you AndyRoo, I much rather Redb’s response.
They can’t have it both ways, they can take an article from Michael Lynch & run with it as gospel because it suits them & now discredit another journalist quoting the truth.
Redb said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
Chuq,
It is not a fact that the AFL would benefit in a major way from WC. Rectangular grounds do not help the AFL.
And you can see from Cockerills’ government funds figures (not verifiable) the AFL has little trouble in obtaining funds for stadiums with or without the World Cup!
I’d also add that the A League and Socceroos benefit hugely from previously funded stadia – MCG, ANZ, Suncorp, Etihad, Blue Tongue, Dairy Farmers, Skilled on the GC – none of which it put a cracker into.
Cockerill’s ‘facts’ are nothing but spin.
Redb
True Tah said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
Redb, Central Coast is a bit of a sore point for me as a Bears supporter. The Bears sunk a few million into the ground and were booted from the comp…futbol got a massive free kick from the NRL as it is pretty much the only tenant in the ground now.
Robbos said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
TT, lets not let the facts get in the way of a ‘let’s kick football in the teeth’ story.
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
This line from Cockerill provides us with a hint about what this is all about:
“The money spent on the Gabba, where cricket and AFL co-habit, remains an especially sore point for football, which had been hoping for a new rectangular stadium in Brisbane instead. ”
The Gabba used to be a crappy little cricket ground with a dog track around it – and now it’s a pretty good stadium that the AFL uses for 7 months of the year, and cricket use for the other 5 moths.
So hands up who think that the AFL has been bad news for the Gabba?
It’s AFL games that bring the people in to pay for the redevelopments!!
Cockerill’s statement above tells us what most of us have been thinking for a while – the WC is about building new grounds that are to be used solely for soccer – that’s the so-called “legacy” for football.
The advantages for the other three codes is illusory – soccer wants its own grounds.
Now on the one hand you might argue: well, that’s fair enough!
Well yes – except the AFL has always had the big crowds and ended up with the big stadiums (and only a tiny percentage of government money has gone into these big stadiums over the course of a century).
The FFA want the nice stadiums for itself but don’t really have the crowds to warrant such lavish expenditure.
This is where the WC comes in – it gives the FFA the perfect entree into getting and controlling its own modern stadiums without having to have built up the crowds to begin with – so from that perspective – yes – it’s a big freebie at tax payer expense – because following the WC – stadiums hlding 43,000 will lie largely fallow for the rest of their existence – they will barely generate sufficient revenue to maintain them.
If there is one thing we can say about AFL grounds – it is this – they generate money and pay for themselves.
AndyRoo said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
But if the AFL (or any other sport) really bring in the money to pay for these grounds why do all the sports in this country require Government funds to build a stadium?
In England the sporting teams build their own stadiums and keep all the money. Why is there a cheque required from the Government?
I am not trying to be a smart alec, becasue Football hasen’t built much. And some of what we did build got torn down
But the holier than thou lines about AFL’s funding dont ring true
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
This is where you are wrong.
The Dome, Subi and AAMI are all built 100% by aussie rules money.
The MCG, while owned and controlled by the MCC for over 150 years, has slowly been built up to what it is today by aussie rules money.
Afterall – it’s no use building a 100,000 capacity stadium unless you are occasionally going to get mroe than 90,000 in there!
The introduction of aussie rules to the Gabba and the SCG has helped them become the modern stadiiums they are today – before that – they were crappy little cricket grounds.
AndyRoo said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Then why does a Government have to write a cheque to have these AFL assets redeveloped?
Why does Subi need government money to get to 65k? Why can’t the AFL just go it alone since it’s a huge money maker?
I know the patronage of AFL is why a Government would upgrade oval stadiums but that’s the same as saying Swan Street was built by Mebourne Victory. Face it Pip, AFL has it’s snout in the trough.
AndyS said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
I don’t know about the others Pip, but you are wrong about Subi. It was built with public money, as has been each upgrade. The WAFC leases it for $1 a year with decades to run on the agreement, and they manage it and keep all the income.
AFL spectator numbers are used to justify getting the money, but they don’t actually generate the money.
Michael C said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
now AndyS, that’s not entirely true.
Think back to 2003, a $34.5 mill redevelopment to make it an all seated venue,
it worked like this:
“Premier Geoff Gallop and AFL chief executive Wayne Jackson today announced they had accepted a WAFC proposal that involved extra football development funding from the AFL and an agreement by the Government to provide a surety for the WAFC’s $34.5million debt on the redevelopment of Subiaco Oval.
”
The Govt didnt’ cough up funds, it was incurred debt by the WAFC, with Govt surety, and additional AFL funding to the WAFC to help them free up funds to service the debt.
I don’t believe the WAFC has failed to service the debt have they? The people of WA haven’t had to pay up have they??
AndyS said | October 30th 2009 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
Actually, I thought the two tier stand went in 1999. But I will stand corrected (partially) on the cost. When asked in parliament who paid for the upgrade of Subiaco Oval and its facilities, the Minister for Sport and Recreation said “The cost of this facility has been met by the WAFC with the assistance of the State Government, which has committed to contributing $1.5 million p.a. for each of 20 years.” So while the cost to the WAFC would depend on how quickly they could return the principal, some cost there would have to have been (I’ll keep my cynical nature in check wrt to how much it sounds like an interest free loan, and how easily a balloon payment could be vanished into the cost of future upgrades).
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
Andy S
I don’t know the financial ins and outs in relation to Subi specifically.
But I do know that if you are going to average crowds of 35,000+, then you are indeed generating sufficient revenue to pay for the ground – so it’s incorrect to say “they don’t actually generate the money” – in fact – the numbers suggesst that they do generate the money.
AndyS said | October 30th 2009 @ 5:14pm | Report comment
They might be able to, and perhaps it is different at other grounds, but in the case of Subi the crowds definitely haven’t, don’t and won’t pay for the structure even if they could. The ground was built entirely by the government and then basically gifted to the WAFC. Everyone who then uses the ground; AFL teams, RU teams, Andre Rieu, etc; all pay a ground rent of various sizes for the use of the facility. Other than the ground maintenance budget, all rents and concession revenues etc then wind up in the WAFC coffers and are used for funding the WAFL and amateur game etc.
As I interpret it, things were set up that way to separate the amateur Rules game (controlled by the WAFC) from the two professional teams (both owned by the WAFC). Last thing they wanted to do was confuse the money made by the Eagles/Dockers with the WAFC status as a “not for profit sports association”. It might make it hard to justify their ground rents if they were clearly rolling in it – their own numbers put the contribution of RU to grassroots Aussie Rules at $3.5M a year. Much better to be able to cry poor and ask the government for money for ground upgrades. Certainly much better than moving to a better facility, but one that they might not get for free.
Lazza said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Pips that’s just crap. Cockerill correctly pointed out that the AFL has received 450m in handouts from the three tiers of government? It doesn’t generate enough revenue to build it’s own stadiums and never has.
I don’t have a problem with government support for sports but I have a problem when our two most important sporting teams, the Olympics and Football are not being given enough to compete on the world stage. Coates has been warning lately that if our Olympic budget is cut we won’t be in the top 6 or 7 nations much longer. If you really want us to compete in the World Game then you should support more funding not less.
Otherwise, just be honest and say you don’t really care about us being a “Great Sporting Nation”.
Redb said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
So even if its’ true that half a billion bucks from the Gov’t comes the AFL’s way, why again do we need the World Cup for anything?
Cockerill’s line of reasoning is flawed.
Redb
eh said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
i thought we were the lucky nation?
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Lazza
I repeat again, if you look through the financial statements of the AFL, you will find that over 99% of its revenue comes from TV rights, sponsorship, memberships, merchandising, etc.
I can promise you this – you can examine the financial statements with a magnifying glass, and you willl not find anything even approcimating $450 mill.
I’d be flabbergasted if you’d even find $1 mill – for the whole 7 years!!
Here is a challenge to you all – simply point to where you can find numbers of this magnitude in the AFL’s financial statements – and I will stand corrected.
Lazza said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
All the major stadium re-developments for grounds used primarily by the AFL have been funded by government. The governments are funding AAMI and Subiaco upgrades? The AFL would find it very difficult to spread the game in QLD if they didn’t have a proper stadium to use. Luckily, the State Government up there funded the Gabba redevopment. Niether AFL nor Cricket could have done it by themselves.
Why did the State Government do it? To host the Football tournament at the last Olympics?
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Lazza
I repeat – the AFL has not reveived $450 million from any level of government during the peroid in question.
As for the Gabba – this is a cricket ground, that the AFL leases during the Winter (by paying a market rate for rent) – in other words – it’s the use of the ground by the AFL that has allowed a once crppy cricket ground to become the very good stadium it is today – no AFL – no nice stadium.
Michael C said | October 30th 2009 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Lazza -
Cockerill has NOT correctly pointed out anything.
The $77 mill to the MCG was NOT from the Federal Govt and is as associated with the AFL as funding to ANZ stadium is to the the ARL.
Given that he’s only quoting Fed Govt figures for anyone other than the AFL – his argument kinda dies when you remove that $77 mill, realising that the only ongoing funding the AFL gets is for an indigenous program of about half a mill, and that the AFL will be nearer the bottom end.
If we bring all the state funding into the equation, then it’s rather different,
And where is the funding for the Melb MRS and Robina Stadium amongst others…..oh, he’s conveniently not mentioning it.
btw – I wonder how he arrived at $141 mill for cricket….does that include the $77 mill to the MCG that he INCORRECTLY attributed to the AFL. Becuase, you DO realise……MCC stands for “MELBOURNE CRICKET CLUB”.
if you still believe that Cockerill is correct…….gawd help us, then we can’t move forward at all!!!!!
Chuq said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Oh, that is GOLD… we are always being told “the MCG is the home of AFL… it wouldn’t be what it is without the AFL… it’s virtually ours” … except when it doesn’t suit, then “it’s the home of cricket!”
Michael C said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
Chuq -
you probably don’t understand the history of the VFL vs State Govt in this state.
It’s a sore point.
All to do with the old VFL, and their owned and built VFL park out at Waverley on their own land. State Govts ended up thwarting the VFL in finishing the venue to 150K capacity – and refused an earlier commitment to extend Pub Transport to it. Forcing the GF to remain at the ‘G.
The ‘G for this time was clearly a cricket ground. Irrespective, it’s the MCC what control it!!!
That has changed though now with the drop in pitches – - it now is clearly a football oval that can accomodate cricket.
Whether it is owned by the MCC or not, the ’spiritual’ home of the game is the MCG – - thus the sad irony – - but, this of course is because it WAS members of the MCC that wrote the first ruddy rules…..but, reality is, the more ’spiritual’ location is the carpark, and some of the old trees that still stand there around which the first games were played.
The other sore point has been for the Melbourne Football Club, that the highest represented AFL/VFL club for supporters from the MCC members are for the MFC. And yet, these MCC members need not buy an MFC membership, and nor does the MFC get to count them or gain returns from them. For many years this was a real sore point – I think some movement might have occurred more recently.
So, don’t for a minute go thinking that the MCG is an ‘AFL’ asset. It’s a commercial arrangement between landlord and tennant.
danny said | October 31st 2009 @ 12:41am | Report comment
yes, there has been some positive movement recently between the mfc/mcc. thank god.
mfc now offers two tiers of joint mfc/mcc membership (basically a glorified donation to the club, starting from the princely sum of $50pa). this has played a major role in the drastic increase in membership for the club over the past couple of years.
the mfc is also, i believe, once again being considered a division of the mcc (as it originally was in 1858 or whenever it was formed), albeit in a much more autonomous role.
through these and other measures, the jim stynes-led board has surely secured the survival of the mfc for at least the next dozen years or so. god bless him, and here’s hoping for a full recovery.
AndyRoo said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Pip
I am not arguing that AFL doesn’t deserve a handout. It has a huge supporter base.
But your saying it doesn’t get one! …Now that is Spin!
The largest professional code that is worth 1 billion dollars a year according to my ill reputable sources and you say they have only benefited from Government Funding of 1m dollars in 7 years. That is criminal!
AFL does benefit from Government money.
They may not cash the cheque but there damm sure telling us who to write it out too.
Wether it deserves it or not is a different debate but lets just say yes.
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Andyroo
I repeat – if you go through all the AFL financial statements during the period in question – you aren’t going to find any substantial amounts of money coming from government, certainly nothing approaching the $450 mill that Cockerill is claiming – it’s false.
AndyRoo said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
If he had of used the word “benefited” instead of received would you sign of?
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
Well it’s very complicated. Some detailed cost/benefit analysis would need to be undertaken, and judging by the quality of Cockerills reporting, I doubt he has the capacity to do it.
Using the Gabba as an example.
Cricket used to use it almost exclusively, and tradtinally it was a pretty crappy cricket ground with a dog track around it.
In truth, cricket only needs to use a ground for 5 months, and as it happens, aussie rules only needs to use an oval for the other 7 months – perfect synergy.
So cricket invites aussie rules to share its ground, and as it happens, it soon discovers that it’s actually aussie rules that earns the revenue – not cricket (that’s certainly the pattern that has been repeated in all the Southern capitals, and major regional centres).
So cricket can now seek to improve its facilities, by whatever means, and it just so happens that the revenue that the AFL earns for the ground will pay for it.
Now I don’t know the details of what has been spent, how, where it came from – but I do know this:]
1. any money from government would not have gone through the AFL’s books;
2. the AFL does not own the asset that is produced;
3. the AFL pays market rates to rent the facility; and
4. the AFL generates far, far more revenue than any other sport in actually paying for the upkeep of the facility.
So yes, one could argue the AFL benefits – but it’s actually paying for it. Not just that – but by generating the revenue, it’s helping Australia’s national sport, cricket (and anyone else who mgiht end up using that facility).
Now – when we turn to the $330 mill the Vic Govt is spending on the Bubble Dome – planned initialy for the use of the Victory and the Storm (but allows a rugby team to come in as well) – it is curious that Cockerill does not appear to mention it at all.
In fact – it was the FFA that lobbied to have the original design increased from 20,000 to 31,500, the Storm was initially happy with 20,000 – this effectively doubled the cost.
The fact that Cockerill does not refer to this expenditure in any way – raises severe doubts on the numbers he has used, and to be honest, on his crediblity – because he is clearly, and unashamedly going in to cheer for the FFA against the AFL, backed with dubious numbers (and that’s putting it mildly).
AndyRoo said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
I don’t object to the money being spent, it was only the holier than thou attitude that bothered me.
Unless we follow the English model of own and build your own then everyone has their snout in the trough to some degree.
I wouldn’t blink twice if the lions were filling the gabba and the state government decided to add 20k seats. I have no problem with the money being spent to cater for sport.
The Carrara redevelopment should bring in a few holiday goers from Victoria, we have seen that with skilled stadium even the A league team has helped the states ecconomy.
Developing Carrara stadium is for the benefit of AFL no doubt about it.
On a cost benefit basis it’s probably worth it for QLD too though.
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
which ever way you look at it – Cockerill’s numbers are way wrong – way wrong.
Lazza said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
Pippinu,
You are missing the point. Those grounds are not all owned by the AFL but they are the main tenant. If government had not funded those re-developments then you would of seen a 450m hole in the AFL’s budget?
If the Gabba hadn’t been upgraded then where would you play AFL games up there? The AFL would have to fund their own stadium and they would have to use just about all that huge TV money to do it.
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
Lazza
Cricket owns and runs the Gabba.
It’s a shitty cricket ground.
Along comes the AFL and all of a sudden it’s earning sufficient revenue to pay for upgrades – aussie rules generates the revenue – cricket gets the benefit – that’s the way it works – that’s the way it has always worked – that’s why we have better cricket grounds in Australia than in England.
Michael C said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
I thought the point was that Cockerill is fudging figures and getting them entirely wrong.
Are you willing to admit that his assertion that the Fed Govt gave the AFL $77 million for the MCG is wrong.
(i.e. on both the facts that it was State and NOT federal, and that the money went to the MCC – and on any logic then should be attributed to Cricket and not AFL).
Robbos said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
I cannot believe my eyes, for years Pip has told me that the AFL never received a cent from the government & now the truth comes out.
He was full of criticism, as expected, about football recieving funding, for a WC bid an int’l event that would benefit all of Australia, & claiming that Football gets funded & AFL is truly self funded.
I am totally devasted, all these years I believe you Pip.
450M wow.. and there is no national team to cater for all Australians, just this pretense that it’s the ‘Australian’ game.
I want my taxes back now!!!!!!
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Robbos
you can continue believing.
As I have said, if you go through the financial statements of the AFL going back six or seven year, you will not find any figures remotely resembling $450 mill, I’d be surprised if you’d even find $1 mill in total over that whole time.
It’s interesting that Cockerill provides no sources.
If I didn’t know better – I’d conclude that he was on the FFA’s payroll.
Robbos said | October 30th 2009 @ 5:12pm | Report comment
Sources or facts have never stopped you running with it before.
I clearly remember you being up in arms about the $46M the government gave to FFA for the WC bid, not a handout to football in this country, but to bid for an int’l event, without doubt the biggest sporting event in the world. But this didn’t stop you from proclaiming that football gets all this funding etc & AFL gets nothing.
You ran with FIFA wanting an 8 weeks stoppage of AFL on the wimps of a newspaper article, no facts, no sources, why do you need sources now.
It clearly states in the article $450m have been given to AFL through 3 tiers of government, yet during this time a sport that really needed funding & the sport that you criticise so much on the funding it recieves, only $77m of which $46M is for an int’l event. A sport that has many levels of National sporting teams that needed funding as they represent their country.
How does AFL get any funding when they have no national team Pip, I ask you? How is the tax payer money justified when they don’t repesent this country?
What does the NRL fans think of this? No wonder AFL has taken over the NRL as the most popular sport in Australia!!!
I would be up in arms if I was a NRL fan, the legup the government gave AFL in it’s fight with AFL, at least the NRL has a national team. As a football fan, I’m not too happy too..
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 5:39pm | Report comment
It clearly states in the article $450m have been given to AFL through 3 tiers of government
Robbos – you and Cockerill are incorrect on this point – if you look through the financial statements of the AFL, you will not see this money, or anything remotely similar.
Cockerill provides no source – because he is wrong.
Robbos said | October 30th 2009 @ 5:55pm | Report comment
No sources on the 8 week stoppage of AFl didn’t stop you slandering our WC bid. No source on how the FFA was going to spend the $46M for the WC bid, didn’t stop you talking about the funding FFA gets.
Hey I’m not incorrect, I don’t know, I’m just going on what I read in the newspaper.
$450m unbelievable considering the ridicule you gave football for it’s funding. As AndyRoo said as least Redb admitted it & thinks AFL deserves it, but this holier than thou crap (another AndyRoo comment)…WOW.
Michael C said | October 30th 2009 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
given Cockerill was whinging about Fed funds going to the SANFL for community facilities,
I wonder – I just checked the (Association) Football Fed Vic and see things like:
“THE State Government has today announced funding of $5.7 million for new and upgraded football facilities and pitches through the new Strengthening of the World Game program.
The news comes on the back of $7million of state funding for a new football/basketball facility in Wantirna South, and almost $3 million of federal funding towards a multi-million upgrade of the Kingston Heath Soccer Complex in Cheltenham. ”
or, doesn’t funding to FFV count,
but funding to the SANFL does??
COckerill must have a sore arm from stretching such a long bow……
Robbos said | October 30th 2009 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
I mean mate, if you’re going to throw stones, you got be squeaky clean. This is the ‘Australian’ game, you don’t want the rest of the world to think you got to the top via funding from the national government stomping on the lesser lights like ARU, the NRL or the FFA. This is Un-Australian.
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 9:52pm | Report comment
I was just about to post a short history on here about the relationship between Australian Football and cricket grounds – and then it occurred to me: bloody hell – this would make a good article!
So I’ve just submitted it.
See you all there real soon!!