Does Pim really rate Korea and Japan?

Roar Pro

By Jesse Fink, 15 Jan 2010 Jesse Fink is a Roar Pro

Tagged:: Bundesliga, FC Nürnberg, football, Japan football, Matthew Spiranovic, Pim Verbeek, Socceroos, World Football

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Martin Fenin from Frankfurt, left, and from Nuremberg Matthew Spiranovic, center, and Jacques Abardonado, right, challenge for the ball. AP Photo/Daniel Roland

It wasn’t so long ago that Matthew Spiranovic was being talked up as the next great Socceroos defender, having burst on to the Bundesliga scene as a teen phenom with FC Nürnberg.

But last week Spira left Germany on loan for Japanese club Urawa Red Diamonds, the latest in a trickle of Aussies trying to reignite their fading representative careers by decamping to the Land of the Rising Sun.

The number of Australians playing in Japan presently stands at four: Eddy Bosnar at top-tier side Shimizu S-Pulse, Mark Milligan at JEF United (where he came in to replace Bosnar), Josh Kennedy at Nagoya Grampus and the aforementioned Spira.

Since the early 1970s the likes of Dennis Boland, Mark Rudan, Graham Arnold and Steve Corica, among others, have all plied their trade at one time or another in Japan.

But does national coach Pim Verbeek rate the league and the other comp over the ditch, the K-League, that highly?

On the basis of selecting players for the national team, the answer appears to be no.

Towering unit Bosnar, who continues to be overlooked for the Socceroos despite having signed for one of the most exciting and best supported teams in the J-League, would likely agree with that analysis.

As would Sasa Ognenovski, who was a rock for Seongnam Ilhwa Chunma in the K-League, being part of a side that went to the final and qualified for the Asian Champions League.

Jade North and Antun Kovacic, meanwhile, would undoubtedly prefer we not mention them at all, their switches to Incheon United and Ulsan Hyundai Horang-i from the A-League failing to set the world on fire.

North, who has been the recipient of some great forbearance from Verbeek, will be very lucky to get to South Africa at all.

Only Kennedy, Mr Rent-a-Melon for Nagoya and the Socceroos, has got any consistent love from the Australia coach.

If you look at Verbeek’s CV, outside of his roles with Korea Republic, he hasn’t had a great time of it in the Far East. Two spells as a club coach in Japan, first with then-amateur-cum-J2 club Omiya Ardija in the late 1990s, followed by a short stint at Kyoto Purple Sanga in 2003 (he quit the job for Netherlands Antilles).

Nothing to crow about.

Yet if you make the supposition that Verbeek doesn’t rate the J- and K-Leagues, it’s contradicted by his own statements, made to me in interviews, that “the organisation around the national teams and club teams [in Korea] is absolutely fantastic – the best of the best” and “I was really impressed by the [Japanese] culture, by the J-League itself”.

The only hint he has given me of his reservations about Japanese football in the various conversations I’ve had with the man was when he explained: “The Japanese play combination football. More Brazilian influences than European.

“Efficiency wasn’t so high because they were focused on combination and ball possession instead of scoring goals … in Japan, they always try to build out from the backline to the midfield to the striker and back and that’s the way they prefer to play.”

Too fancy for No-Frills Pim, then? Perhaps.

So, ultimately, is Japan a good move for World Cup hopeful Spiranovic?

Urawa is a massive club but is in a period of decline, having finished seventh and sixth in its past two seasons after a golden period in the mid to late noughties.

It’s thought Spira has come to plug the gap left by Japan star Marcus Tulio Tanaka, who sensationally quit the club for Nagoya Grampus, which on one level attests to the young Australian’s quality to be spoken of in the same breath as Tanaka, but also should be regarded as a reminder that he keep his options open.

My Roar colleague Mike Tuckerman, a former resident of Japan, explained to me recently: “Tulio went nuts at Urawa for selling Alessandro Santos to Nagoya midway through last season… he basically labelled the Reds back-room staff ‘idiots’ and they were determined to get rid of him.”

Let’s hope Spira’s loan deal isn’t so fraught with politics.

And for his sake and the nation’s, let’s pray he gets to play some football and Pim, most importantly, is watching.

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The Crowd Says (26) | Page 1 of Comments

The Bear said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:59am | Report comment

Should have gone to Holland ; /

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Lu said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:17am | Report comment

The players mentioned above Ognenovski, Kennedy, Bosnar and now Spiranovic are niche players who have been brought into their respective teams to add that extra size and presence thats lacking in most Asian teams. Which probably is why North is struggling to get a place as there would be players of his size and ability already.

These Aussie boys are probably doing what they’ve been brought into do and most seem to be doing it well.

However throw them into the international arena against the skills and technique of the Sth Americans and the European big guns, the brute strength and force of the eastern Europeans, the raw speed and talent of the Africans (all of which Australia will be facing in WC10) and those playing in J and K will be tested and may very well not scrub up.

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- Tom said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:59am | Report comment
  
  Very good point Lu.
  
  And a very interesting article from Jesse.
  
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  - Lmacca said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:34am | Report comment
    
    I disagree, only because having seen Spiranovic at the Olympics and also vs Ireland, he’s not just there for headers. He’s good on the ball and got some pace. So he’s not exactly like Ognenovski nor Bosnar.
    
    I think the upcoming Asian Cup game may be an ideal time for those playing in Asia to get a run – Milligan, Kennedy, Spira, the Ogre, Bosnar, North, Ryan Griffiths. See if they’re any better than the A-League players who would otherwise be playing. Also would help draw a line to see how their form stacks up as a measure of the relative strength of the Japanese and Korean leagues.
    
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Dickroo said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:24am | Report comment

Spira will be the ideal CB for this World cup – young, tall, quick, knowing German football well, being a Croatian, perfect against the Germans and Serbians. If only he can get some regular game time between now and June. Moore will be beat once, twice……and more, by those quality World Cup forwards, just looking at the first goal we conceived in the Kuwait city.

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AGO74 said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:58am | Report comment

I wouldn’t get too carried away about Spira in Japan rather than Europe as I suspect even if he stayed in Europe he wouldn’t be going to the WC anyway as he didn’t even make the bench for the B-squad against Kuwait. Let’s just hope he can stay injury-free over the next few years and develop the way we all think he can (he was our only positive out of the Beijing disaster) and be a 1st choice defender for us at the 2014 World Cup.

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Davstar said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:03am | Report comment

Dickroo – you have to have a “ic” at the end of your name to mention that Spria is croat dw i do too lol.

Anyway

Pim dose rate the J-league, K-league, remember Jade North got a run before he stopped getting game time. Sprias move was the best thing he could have done for his career his young he needs to be playing, i hope he does well in the J-league a lot of people are counting on him. I think is his German team get relegated it would probably be best to switch leagues if they stay in 1.Bundesliga then i would say perhaps come back at the end of the loan.
A
No doubt Pim rates the J/K-league but he doesn’t overated it! I’ve notice a lot of football experts seem to think the J-league is as good as playing in Europe. Whilst the league is a step or two up from the A-league, it’s not as good as the Greek or Turkish super league, Scottish premier league etc and many other mid level European leagues. Technically advanced but Finishing, Physical play and tactics its will far behind. Also I’ve noticed Goal keeping in Asia in general is of a very poor standard.

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Australian Football said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:22am | Report comment

It is hard to no what he rates or doesn’t rate he is suck with one playing system and that’s agianst good and bad opposition… No matter who he picks it’s the same old same old formation….

~~~~~~~
AF

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Ryan Steele said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:46am | Report comment

I really don’t think Ognenovski, North, and Bosnar are worth mentioning in this argument.

Ognenovski had his chance to represent Australia before moving to Korea, but all the “um-ing and ah-ing” about declaring for a national team blew it for him, and Pim essentially gave up. Sasa later declared for Macedonia, which is why Pim hasn’t looked any further. Funnily enough, he’s yet to earn a cap for Macedonia, despite nearly being named the country’s best player of 2008.

North was given several caps for the Socceroos, but having fallen out of favour at his club and given very little playing time over the last year, it doesn’t take quantum physics to understand why he hasn’t been called up for so long.

Bosnar’s issue has been previously discussed to some length on the Roar, and I remember discussing with Mike the pros and cons of his time at JEF. He was a regular starter, obviously, but his temperament and concentration caused plenty of fouls and slip-ups in defence. That’s not to say he was the cause for JEF’s relegation – that was inevitable, and S-Pulse wouldn’t have signed him if it were the case – but it was not the performance of a national team member. We can’t really question why he hasn’t been called up if he’s playing for Shimizu, either, because he’s only just made the move and isn’t currently in season.

Spiranovic’s move clearly is to benefit Urawa more than himself, but I can see him also getting a valuable return so long as Finke continues to run the show. Volker Finke’s focus is on player development, and being able to play against the likes of Lucas, Okazaki, and Sato – all extremely talented forwards – should help him learn and grow as a player.

Milligan will benefit from the huge load of games he’ll be playing in J2, along with all the cup games that are involved. It’s also quite different from a technical perspective, and proving he can successfully adapt to another pace will prove his worth even further.

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David V. said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:47am | Report comment

Scotland? You’ve gotta be kidding there- the SPL isn’t far above the A-League and is probably behind the J-League et al these days. It’s declined to a farcical standard well below what it was even a decade ago, let alone 2 or 3 decades ago.

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- Davstar said | January 15th 2010 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
  
  Some of the best young players in the J-league go to the SPL to develop their Career. I agree half the teams in the SPL are weak but Celtic and Rangers are still of a very high standard and i would put them to beat any club in the J-league. Naka was Japans number one player and he played in the SPL in the last world cup not the J-league, rememberthat the SPL is rated very highly in Japan and even though its been struggling lately its still a good league
  
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  - Ryan Steele said | January 15th 2010 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
    
    While I’m usually the first to bang heads with David V., I’m finding it hard to agree with your reply. Which of the best players in the J. League went from Japan to the SPL? The only Japanese players I can think of are Nakamura and Mizuno – and Nakamura was already playing in Europe, while Mizuno is hardly in favour at either country or club levels, nor was he the most spectacular player in his home country.
    
    It’s not that the SPL is rated highly in Japan – it’s that Europe is rated highly in Japan, so any player that goes from Japan to any somewhat recognisable league in Europe will be considered a fantastic player.
    
    That’s not to say I agree with David V., but I felt the urge to respond to this comment.
    
    Reply
  - David V. said | January 15th 2010 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
    
    Very high standard? That was the case a decade ago when Celtic had Larsson and Moravcik, and Rangers had Gascoigne and Laudrup before then. The Old Firm clubs now don’t have the same talent they used to, nor do they bring gifted players through the ranks like they once did. Even the worst teams in the Scottish top flight in the 90s had better players than most SPL teams do now. Scotland had produced many, many, many outstanding talents in their own right, but far fewer of them now.
    
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Dogz R Barkn said | January 15th 2010 @ 2:53pm | Report comment

I was intrigued by this question in relation to Japan and the SPL, and did a quick search, and this is what I found:

1. all of the national U17 team ply their trade in Japan
2. all of the national U20 team ply their trade in Japan, and
3. all of the current squad play in Japan, although there are a few famous names likely to get call ups that play in Europe, e.g. Morimoto, Honda and Nakamura.

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Davstar said | January 15th 2010 @ 5:26pm | Report comment

Your probably right, and i know the standard has dropped but honestly but i still don’t see Celtic or Rangers losing to any J-league team. I still think Celtic and Rangers are good teams, players go from the SPL stright to the EPL were as players from the J-league generally have to go somewhere else then move to bigger leagues. However the J-league has alot more money then the SPL so i donno…

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- AndyRoo said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:00pm | Report comment
  
  Don’t know who’s side of the argument this helps but FC Seoul had two great young midfielders, one went to Celtic (Ki Sung-Yong) just recently but the other to Bolton ( Lee Chung-Yong) for the start of the season and has since featured 14 times and scored 3 goals.
  
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  - David V. said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:00pm | Report comment
    
    I don’t doubt the quality of J-League and K-League. But admittedly, as I’ve pointed out, Asia is still some way behind Latin America and Africa when it comes to producing players who’ve become true stars of European football. Those regions have been doing it for a long time, and far more of them to have made names for themselves in Europe.
    
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    - dannyshepherd said | January 16th 2010 @ 8:40am | Report comment
      
      and yet african club football is of the lowest standard… maybe these african players are being ‘produced’ in europe…
      
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    - Ben of Phnom Penh said | January 17th 2010 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
      
      If football were to be measured on the production of individuals this would be true. If it is to be measured on the quality of the game itself then less so.
      
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- dannyshepherd said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
  
  no… you’ll find most players go from celtic and rangers to the championship not the epl… eg, middlesborough just bought four celtic players… even if the so called better ones do go to the epl they don’t do much, eg, hutton, buomsong, moore to name a few…
  
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