Reds back in contention, but Waratahs need a cleanout
By Spiro Zavos, 14 May 2012 Spiro Zavos is a Roar Expert
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- Jake White, Michael Foley, Reds, Rugby Union, Super Rugby, Waratahs
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The Bulls celebrate their match winning try as a dejected Waratahs look on during their Super Rugby match (AAP Image/Dean Lewins)
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The Reds’ 42-27 win over the Chiefs was a mothers day of a contest. One of the great Super Rugby matches.
The result tells us that if the Reds make the finals they can do some damage in the play-off games. To be realistic the Reds have to get into the finals by winning the Australian conference.
There are seven teams (aside from the Brumbies) currently in front of them on the table. Three of those teams – the Bulls, the Chiefs and the Stormers – will be in the finals.
The likelihood is with the Crusaders, Hurricanes, Highlanders and Sharks all ahead of the Reds and accumulating points, there will be only one Australian team in the finals – the winner of the Australian Conference.
The Rebels helped all the teams in the hunt for tournament honours, especially the Brumbies and the Reds, when they easily defeated the Crusaders in Melbourne.
The Crusaders, though, have the Blues at home, a bye and the Highlanders at home before the big break. There are at least eight points here for them, you would think.
The Brumbies play the Hurricanes in Wellington (a difficult assignment), the Reds in Canberra and the Rebels in Melbourne, which no longer look as easy as a couple of weeks ago. The Brumbies might struggle to get four points out of all of this.
The Reds play the Lions at Brisbane (five points in the bag, I suggest), the Brumbies at home, then get a bye. You would think there are at least nine points here.
So the contest for the Australian Conference winner is very much alive between the Reds and the Brumbies.
The Conference winners have an automatic first-up home final. This home ground advantage is often the difference between a strong victory and an awkward, disappointing defeat. At Christchurch last weekend, the Reds conceded 17 penalties in going down to the Crusaders. Admittedly this was from a New Zealand referee.
At their home ground of Suncorp Stadium, with South African referee Marius Jonker, they conceded one penalty in the first half! The Chiefs had five ruled against them.
As well, the referee and touch judges totally missed identifying Luke Morahan as the perpetrator of a dump tackle on Sonny Bill Williams, even though the tackle was out in the open and right by the sideline. Jonker identified the tackle as a yellow card. But because the culprit was not identified (why didn’t they go to the TMO?) the Reds kept their fullback on the field.
Morahan made two, possibly three, last-ditch tackles preventing Chiefs tries in the minutes he should have been cooling his heels on the sideline.
Controversies like this are part of big sport. The fact is the Reds were too good for the Chiefs after they worked out a weakness in defending the pick and drive.
The match was in three phases. Phase one was an early and surprising advantage to the Reds. Surprising because the Chiefs were number two on the table and the Reds number 10. The Reds worked a try against the run of play with Mike Harris intercepting and racing away for the try line.
Then the Chiefs piled on three tries in eight minutes and the match, at 22 Chiefs – Reds 8 looked as good as over.
Two things happened to change everything. Richard Kahui went off after making another break-out suffering from a possible dislocated shoulder. The Chiefs backs, especially the combination of Sonny Bill Williams and Kahui, never looked as dangerous again in the match. Then Aaron Cruden fielded a long kick-off safely. Jonker immediately ordered a penalty against the Chiefs for shepherding.
Unfortunately, the television coverage did not show the incident. It looked to be a hard call because Cruden had plenty of time to make his catch.
What proved a brilliant decision by James Horwill (which I thought was wrong because I believe you should take the easy points) saw the Reds kicking for touch and going for the try. After some intense play on the Chiefs try line, Ben Lucas scuttled across and Harris converted. 22-8 had become 22-15.
This was the beginning of phase two in the match, and the decisive phase. After half-time the Reds won their kick-off and the forwards picked and drove nearly 40m to score a converted try. 22-all. The decision in the dressing rooms at half-time to attack the fringes of the ruck was particularly smart.
The Chiefs did not have an answer to the tactic until they brought young Sam Cane on late in the match to counter the irresistible Liam Gill, a future Wallaby great and a better prospect in my opinion than David Pocock. Throughout the match Gill slowed down the Chiefs ball. And three times when the Chiefs were inside the Reds 22 and relentlessly pushing on to the try line, Gill pilfered the ball and saved the day.
After the second half opening assault by the Red, the Chiefs completely folded. The Reds piled on the points and put themselves into an unassailable position.
In the last 15 minutes or so, the Chiefs tried to come back. They made plenty of breaks but their finishing was poor.
The result, a clear victory to the Reds, was an accurate indication of the total flow of the game.
The Reds played in front of a crowd of 36,479 spectators.
On Friday night, the Waratahs attracted 17,000 spectators to see them go down to a Bulls side that looked brilliant in shocking pink and played well within themselves to win 27-24, three tries to two.
Once again it was an errant kick towards the end of the match gifting the ball to the opposition which turned over possession and allowed the Bulls to force an error, then score a close-range try to win the match.
I said at the beginning of the season I was predicting for the first time the Waratahs would not win the tournament. I did this because coach Michael Foley, before the season started, went on interminably about the new ‘kicking attack’ game the Waratahs were going to bring to their play.
I argued at the time that you can’t score points when the opposition has the ball or is given the ball. And so it has come to pass.
The Waratahs need a clean-out of their board, administration, coaching and playing staff. The public has given up on them, as the small crowds suggest. There were times only a few years ago when the average crowd for the Waratahs was over 30,000.
The Waratahs have not developed any outstanding must-watch, match-winning players like Kurtley Beale since… Kurtley Beale. They lost Beale to the Rebels. Remarkably, Beale has now developed an all-round number 10 game at Melbourne that he never had playing for the Waratahs.
Supporters of Foley, who seems to be a genial fellow, say that he needs at least one more year to show his stuff. But he was an important part of the failed Chris Hickey regime. Hickey coined the ‘winning ugly’ phrase, but it was reported that it was Foley rather than Hickey who ran the practice sessions. So we know what he can and cannot deliver as a coach.
It was Foley, too, who was behind the recruitment of the old-timers, Rocky Elsom and Adam Ashley-Cooper, and the loss of players like Ben Mowen (who Jake White immediately made captain of the Brumbies). Mowen was made redundant because Elsom was coming to the Waratahs.
This time last year, early May 2011, I wrote an email to a person of some power in the Waratahs establishment making these points: “There are constant rumours that Michael Foley is going to take over as head coach. This will destroy the Waratahs brand for the years he is in the position … His views on rugby tend towards the ‘win ugly’ method … There needs to be a clean out of the coaching staff and – in my opinion – get rid of a number of senior players who will not buy into the expansive, attractive and winning sort of game the Reds are playing …”
Clearly this advice has not been taken. It took an intervention by the Australian Rugby Union to clean out the old Reds establishment and put in place a new administration to build the new Reds. The results on and off the playing field are impressive.
The Waratahs franchise has access to the most number of players, the best club rugby tournament and has the whole of Sydney to gather in its spectators.
To have a team that has never won the Super Rugby tournament – and will fail again this year – while attracting smaller crowds than the Rebels in Melbourne is totally unacceptable.
Or should be unacceptable. If the board of the Waratahs, a seemingly self-elected oligarchy, won’t institute a clean-out, then let’s hope the ARU will make an intervention. Something drastic has to be done about the sick man of Australian rugby, the New South Wales Waratahs.
Spiro Zavos, a founding writer on The Roar, was long time editorial writer on the Sydney Morning Herald, where he started a rugby column that has run for nearly 30 years. Spiro has written 12 books: fiction, biography, politics and histories of Australian, New Zealand, British and South African rugby. He is regarded as one of the foremost writers on rugby throughout the world.
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May 14th 2012 @ 6:07am
Charging Rhino said | May 14th 2012 @ 6:07am | Report comment
Makes you want to re-think this whole Conference system.
Stormers and Chiefs are on 45 points each and Bulls in 1st position on 46. Brumbies only on 39 points but yet ahead of the Stormers?
It makes no sense. Imagine if the Stormers & Bulls both finish 1st and 2nd in points but one of them will have to be 4th on the log and have to play a pay-off game before traveling to an away semi final if they win????
Stupid system I reckon….
Other good news… The Sharks had a cracker game!!! Should be in the final 6. Or at least I hope so
!
Rebels were great too! I was waiting for that after their good play last week against the Bulls last weekend. Momentum seems to be building there. As were the Reds.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:27am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Absolutely agree CR this conference system is a joke and teams should qualify for a final based on their overall standing.
Pity finalists are not the answer to Super rugby
May 14th 2012 @ 10:12am
Elisha Pearce said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:12am | Report comment
If they scrap conferences you either need to play everyone once (probably not enough games for Fox) or play everyone twice (huge amount of games already on the calendar).
What about keep the conference idea, each team gets a qualifier but the seedings for home finals can be made by the overall points tally? So the Brumbies would make it in as our qualifier but have to travel for their game? That would be fairer than what we have now, still have a good middling amount of games and keep the hand that feeds us happy.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:35am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Thats exactly what I belive should happen EP that teams should only qualify on their overall points tally refer to a post I made below in reply to Joshy.
I still am a fan of the round robin format as the conference system throws up to many anomalies
May 14th 2012 @ 10:45am
nomis said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Absolutely disagree. The conference system has to be in place for the tournament to build traction. The Aus conference winner will be in the top six, so it is still fair for them to go thru. If the Aus conference is weaker, it will be shown by an extra team from NZ or SA getting thru, and only one from Aus.
If you want a home game come finals, then you gotta win your conference. This puts an emphasis on local derbies which is necessary to continue to entrench SR further within each country. And it’s working.
The conference system is here to stay. It is the only way to build the tournament without the season going longer.
The original concept of Super 12 where it acted along side the domestic tournaments in NZ and SA was not sustainable according to both the SARU and the NZRU. SR had to take centre stage, and grow to be the viable complement to the main international tournament, otherwise more and more players will walk. The international season is not enough to keep them without it.
To be sure, SR is not perfect, but there are so many boxes that have to be ticked for each country and for the broadcasters, etc, that it’s never going to please everyone. I reckon they’ve done pretty well with this concept. So I say, we just enjoy it.
With each passing year, the SR teams entrench themselves further as viable teams with an established culture and fan-base. For the new generation coming thru, this is all they know.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:50am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
What he said.
May 15th 2012 @ 6:27am
Charging Rhino said | May 15th 2012 @ 6:27am | Report comment
Looks like a opened up a can of worms here! Lol
I’ve read a lot of these posts below by Red Kev, Jarmin, Nomis and many others……. Guys…. Seriously??!
Regardless of how you try to justify and argue this, from whichever angle, the thing that does not change is it’s Grossly unfair to a team (whoever the team is, be it a Aus, NZ or SA team) that a weaker team qualifies above them and the winner from each of the three Conference’s is guaranteed a home Play-off spot. Who cares who initiated the idea or how it’s going to help benefit rugby in somebody’s country and yaady yader? If the rugby team is strong in a geographical location then the sport will grow.
Bottom line is … the strongest teams should be ranked and qualify accordingly. Whether you have a so called “Conference system” or a round robin or whatever. That is the fairest way. I personally prefer the “each team plays each other once format” but hey that’s my personal preference as I believe that’s a fairer way to judge the strength of teams too. Others will disagree with me.
If your team is doing well then the support in that country or area will follow. Like the Brumbies of 2000-2004 in Canberra. Or the Reds in Brisbane last year. The proof is there so you can’t argue with it.
They didn’t seem to struggle to get the support they deserved or the increased TV ratings in Australia?!
Neither did the Bulls (past 5 years), Crusaders, Blues, Stormers over past 3 years and Sharks when they hit a good streak. Already mentioned Brumbies and Reds.
On a side note SA’s Currie Cup is 120 years old…. it’s there to stay. South Africans wont budge on this. Trust me. Not sure how long NZ has had the NPC domestic comp but I’m sure it’s pretty old too.
Instead of trying to replace what has worked for over 100 years and push it out, why doesn’t Australia develop their own domestic competition? Then there wouldn’t be moans about their rugby season being too short aside from the international season etc.
Anyway I’m just another voice in the crowd
You all have a wonderful day now and try not take things too personally
May 14th 2012 @ 11:03am
nomis said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:03am | Report comment
I think Elisha Pearce (above) and Red Kev (below) make a helpful suggestion
Perhaps the winner of a particular conference shouldn’t get a home game for the finals if they’re not in the top 3 overall.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:10am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
May 14th 2012 @ 11:09am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
The difference in this competition can come down to home ground advantage and we have seen that in many of the games this year.
If an Australian team can not qualify as one of the top overall teams they DO NOT deserve home ground advantage.
if an Australian team Qualifies 4th they will still be granted home ground advantage yes but due to this ridiculous system they will be afforded a home final against the weakest overall qualifier whilst a team who finishes 3rd would have to face the tougher task against the higher qualifier.
Its unlikely that it would occur but what is to say 3 & 4 then go onto beat 1 & 2 ?
The Australian team would then be afforded the competition final.
How is that fair?
Save the pity finalists its a joke.
Why should teams from stronger conferences be disadvantaged to allow fans and teams from a weaker conference to have some traction.
If your teams are not good enough to gain home ground advantage overall they DO NOT deserve it end of story!!!
God if your teams can’t finish in the top 6 they certainly do not deserve to be in the finals.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:18am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:18am | Report comment
I wonder if you’ll change your tune in a few years time when the winner of the NZ conference finishes 5th overall on points.
I don’t see an issue with guaranteeing a conference winner a home final of some sort; but I do think that the top 4 should be (a) comprised of the three conference winners plus one, and (b) then organised by points – if a “wildcard” ends up second on points good on them – two semi’s in the same country in week 2 would not be ideal for SANZAR but it is fairly unlikely anyway.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:22am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:22am | Report comment
No I will not change my tune RK at all, if a NZ team can’t qualify in the three then no they don’t deserve to be there end of story!
May 14th 2012 @ 11:22am
Cliff said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Why not wait until the season is over before complaining? You have no idea where the Australian conference winner will finish yet.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:58am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Hey Cliff if we use your theory whats the point of having a forum such as the roar?
I expect you not to post another comment until after the season has been completed
May 14th 2012 @ 3:04pm
Justin2 said | May 14th 2012 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
Its a CONFERENCE system not a traditional table. American Sports who have similar set ups do not ever as far as I am aware combine the conferences for an over all table.
May 14th 2012 @ 3:16pm
Brett McKay said | May 14th 2012 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
J2, perhaps then, that’s the quick and obvious fix. Keep the tables separated into three distinct logs, and perhaps just put an * next to the three teams in the wild card slots…
May 14th 2012 @ 3:17pm
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
So you have highlighted another anomaly / irregularity in the conference system.
This is as far as I am aware the only conference system where the overall table is used to decide the also rans. Most conference systems take said amount of teams directly out of each conference.
May 14th 2012 @ 3:31pm
Justin2 said | May 14th 2012 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
Dont quote me but I think a few of the US sports have wild card qualifiers in their systems so I dont think its irregular. Could be wrong though.
May 14th 2012 @ 4:53pm
sheek said | May 14th 2012 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
Brett,
Log (as in sports table) – love that word, haven’t heard it or read it for yonks…..
May 14th 2012 @ 6:51pm
Justin2 said | May 14th 2012 @ 6:51pm | Report comment
Sheek – you just came out with one of your own “yonks”!
May 14th 2012 @ 11:54pm
Timo9 said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:54pm | Report comment
The conference system is not perfect but is the best. Last year was the first season of this system, the top two teams all year played in the final and the team that desereved the home ground advantage in the grand final won (possibly on the back of playing in front of a home crowd). It is unbelievable that people are knocking this system after the success of year one and half of year two.
The other point is that just because a team has less points does not indicate they are a worse side as such. It is plausable to say that the Reds & Brumbies would finish with more points if they had the opportunity to play the Cheetahs, Lions & Blues twice. While it is evident that the Australian teams as a whole don’t seem to be of the same standard as the Bulls, Stormers & Chiefs, it is also fair to say that the Australian conference is the most competitive making it more difficult to accumulate points.
The conference system is the best system available with the time frame available and is yet to be proven unsuccessful despite the points table as it stands to date this year.
May 14th 2012 @ 6:37am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 6:37am | Report comment
The conference system is the only system that makes sense with the teams so geographically spread – it is far from perfect but it is the only way we’ll get to see decent rugby week in week out in Australia so I am all for it.
However I am not convinced the finals system is correct. There is no reason the winner of the third-placed conference (this year it will be an Australian team) can’t be put 4th overall instead of 3rd depending on points earned from the regular season – they still get a home final.
Similarly IF (and this is a big if) the Stormers and Bulls finished 1 and 2 on points, why couldn’t the top NZ side be 3rd and the top Aus side be 4th? They would still get a home final in the first week.
Surely that is fairer.
May 14th 2012 @ 7:25am
mikeylives said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:25am | Report comment
How does 4th place get a home final in a 6 team semi? Surely 4th plays 3rd at the latters home ground.
May 14th 2012 @ 7:29am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:29am | Report comment
One and two get a bye, 3 plays 6 and 4 plays 5 in the first week of the finals.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:06pm
mikeylives said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
ok thanks.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:37am
Joshy said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
I’m sorry. What was wrong with the round robin? You know, everyone plays everyone? I don’t want to watch the Waratahs play the Rebels and Force 4 times. I don’t find that entertaining.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:53am
formeropenside said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Yeah, I’d prefer round robin over this stupid system we have.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:57am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
What’s wrong with it is simple – it is too expensive.
Flying the teams all over the place costs a lot of money; local derbies attrack bigger crowds on average than the inter-country matches (with obvious exceptions to big drawcards like the Crusaders).
So you end up with the double-whammy of higher costs and lower gate takings (which are very important for the host unions).
The simple fact is Jo’burg to Dunedin is just too damn far for a round-robin competition that has to fit into a small window each year. (If you want a genuine round-robin where every team plays every team home and away you’ll have to ditch the NPC and the Currie Cup).
Is the conference system perfect? No. Is it the best solution available? Yes.
As an aside if you want entertaining don’t watch the Waratahs – it doesn’t matter who they play.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:02am
Joshy said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:02am | Report comment
They had the round robin for what, 15 years? Why wasn’t this fantastic, money saver done earlier?
Eating left over dinner from a week ago also saves money, btw. Does it taste good? No.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:06am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:06am | Report comment
They had 12 teams for the majority of that.
It expanded to 14 and the SARU, ARU and NZRU found the logistics and the money too problematic. Then at the next round of negotiations by SANZAR with the broadcaster they changed the format (they are unable to change the format without that approval because that’s who pretty much pays for it).
I’ll say it again – if you want a genuine round robin you’ll have to ditch the Currie Cup and the NPC competitions – or run them simultaneously with players that can’t make the Super Rugby cut.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:31am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:31am | Report comment
I’m with you here the round robin was by far the fairer of the two systems.
if pity finalista re to be included they should only come in where they finish and not be leap frogged above better performing teams.
Better yet a win loss method could be used to determine if the conference winner gets the home final over the team above them.
By this I mean take the Reds Chiefs for example should the Chiefs somehow not win the NZ conference but finish 3rd overall and the Reds finish 4th or 5th then the Reds should leap frog the Chiefs as the won in the regular season had they lost they should maintain their log position and the finals repercussions that come with not being one of the top teams overall.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:07am
nomis said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Not enough games for a round robin for the broadcasters. And too many games for a double round robin. It makes sense that the extra games are local derbies. Actually MOST fans prefer this judging by crowd numbers and TV ratings.
But I take your points about adjusting things to make it fairer for teams that finished well overall, and I think there have been a couple of helpful suggestions by others
May 14th 2012 @ 7:02pm
RebelRanger said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
Not enough games? Have a series like NBA. Best of 3. More finals, more packed stadiums more money.
May 14th 2012 @ 6:44am
King of the Gorgonites said | May 14th 2012 @ 6:44am | Report comment
The tahs are done for the year. Embarrassing. These guys are a joke. What else amuses me is that whenever the tahs take a game to home bush people complain and say they would get a bigger crowd at the sfs. Well look at the crowd from Friday night….
May 14th 2012 @ 10:16am
Elisha Pearce said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
KOG, you make a good point. It was fairly quiet in the SFS on Friday night. And to make matters worse, at no point did I think we would hold on and win that game. I don’t think many others did either.
The complaint part though is a little off: “say they would get a bigger crowd at the sfs”
I think the complaint is that the Olympic Stadium feels like you are watching a game that is being played on the other side of the Western Sydney basin no matter where you end up sitting really.
May 14th 2012 @ 3:22pm
Denby said | May 14th 2012 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
That is my problem with homebush, the stadium is poorly designed (for rugby), too large, there is nothing else to do there once the game is over, the price of beer is astronomical and it takes hours by public transport to get there (not because of the location but due to the poorly designed rail network).
I do not think any other reason than the ones listed above effects the size of the crowd.
May 14th 2012 @ 6:04pm
Rory said | May 14th 2012 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
Worst aspect of Friday night’s game was when Berrick Barnes ( the player who made THAT KICK that put all the pressure back on the Tahs and eventually lost them the game) was then named “MAN OF THE MATCH”. If there was a better player on the field than Hougard, I wasn’t at the game. And if it had to be a Waratah, then Ulugia should have got it for his tireless efforts in replacing TPN. Anyway, another season ends with diappointment. Yes sack the lot of them and play next year with a bunch of no-names like the Brumbies have this year – except (like the Brumbies) need players with some heart – and a good coach.
May 14th 2012 @ 6:52am
Rough Conduct said | May 14th 2012 @ 6:52am | Report comment
Waratahs – biggest underperformers in Australian sport. They have access to better resources than any other SR team in Australia yet cannot deliver.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:34am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Has anyone else picked up on the fact that the biggest population centres across all three conferences have poor performing teams.
Lions, Tahs and Blues J’burg, Sydney and Auckland
May 14th 2012 @ 12:06pm
Ziggy said | May 14th 2012 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
I can only comment on the Lions. Jhb is all about football(soccer). The stadium is in a dangerous area. I would not go there.
The glory days of Ellis Park are over.
Insofar as Sydney is concerned, I live in Kellyville. Anything across the bridge and trans city is a real pain in the backside.No trains.
May 15th 2012 @ 2:52am
Stanley grella said | May 15th 2012 @ 2:52am | Report comment
What resouces do the Tahs have that any other team dies not?
This might have been relevant in pre professional times, but they only have 30 squad positions to offer, with professional scouts out there they have no more chance than anyone else. To ad to it they are also in the most saturated sporting market in the country.
There ni performing well this year.
They have marketability problems
But there not and I completely disagree somehow greatly advantaged in any way compared to any other franchise.
May 14th 2012 @ 7:38am
mania said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:38am | Report comment
only got to watch the 1st and last 10 mins of this game but what stood out for me as to the difference of both sides is, in the forwards reds had gill and no one was able to counter him. in the backs the difference was kahui. telling that when he left the baks never looked as coherant
good win reds and well deserved.
May 14th 2012 @ 7:56am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:56am | Report comment
It wasn’t just Gill the entire Reds back five dominated the Chiefs piggies (a good achievement when you remember how good Retallick, Messam and Latimer have been in previous weeks). The Reds forwards finally remembered that rugby matches are won by hard work up front.
If they could find a decent starting tighthead prop they would be a much more dangerous football team (Slipper is capable of swapping from LHP to THP for the last 20-30 minutes of a match, but they need better to start with).
May 14th 2012 @ 8:54am
formeropenside said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Reds scrum did OK I thought, against a pack that bossed around the Cru a while back.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:59am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:59am | Report comment
Yeah but “OK” won’t get them consistent finals appearances which should be their goal.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:34am
Rugby Diehard said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
What I was really impressed with, was in a Reds scrum going backwards Higginbotham’s handling of the ball at the back of a difficult scrum. A couple of impressive scoop and flick passes which gave his 9 the ability to play from wide of the scrum as a primary playmaker. The jury was out for me with him at #8 but I was most impressed with his game yesterday afternoon. This really opened up some space through the 10 and 12 channel for the Reds with Digby esp finding some room in this channel that he just loves to come in and step and bump into a couple of guys.
On a secondary note it must be said that Mckenzie’s analysis of that game at his half time talk was spot on – the Reds were being out paced and found out through the Chiefs quick ball movement, the second half saw the defence spread wide with our backrow often defending out wide. I thought an excellent observation by Mckenzie and superb performance by the Reds to rectify this situation which would have been certain death against a class Chiefs outfit.
Liam Gill!! Simply sensational.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:19am
Elisha Pearce said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
“Higginbotham’s handling of the ball at the back of a difficult scrum” – brilliant point mate.
Contrast his abilities ball in hand on a scrum going backwards with the poor execution from Palu and Timani (the killer blow) in the Tahs games. I always expect Higgers to pull the ball out somehow. He’s safe there.
May 14th 2012 @ 2:38pm
PeterK said | May 14th 2012 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Palu handles the scrum going backwards quite well, even though at super level it rarely happens to the tahs.
Timani at 19 though has a lot to learn at no 8, at this stage he is better suited to 6.
May 14th 2012 @ 2:37pm
PeterK said | May 14th 2012 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
FOS – If a scrum going backwards and being penalised is OK then your definition of OK is different to mine.
Whilst Daley was on the scrum was hammered. It DID go OK when Holmes came on.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:47am
Schtumpy said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:47am | Report comment
Daley played well in general play but the Reds pack lifted immeasurably when he was replaced.
I think he’d be much better as fresh legs later in the game when the scrums have worn themselves down.
May 14th 2012 @ 3:59pm
MR said | May 14th 2012 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
To be fair and taking nothing away from Holmes but thats exactly what happened, however in reverse. By the time Holmes came on the sting had gone out of the Chiefs scrum.
Against one of the best scrums in S15 the Reds were able to with stand the first half pressure from the Chiefs dominate scrum yet Daley seems to be the only one singled out, i didn’t see Slipper dominate his opponent in the first half, rather the opposite, so should he be replaced? I don’t think so.
May 14th 2012 @ 4:03pm
PeterK said | May 14th 2012 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
It was Daley collapsing, hinging and being penalised more so than Slipper.
Besides the reds do not have another good THP to replace Slipper with but Holmes is a very good LHP and a make do THP if there is an injury.
May 14th 2012 @ 6:14pm
MR said | May 14th 2012 @ 6:14pm | Report comment
the game i watched Daley was penalised once for that and so was his opponent so net result was square on that front. Don’t get me wrong the Chiefs scrum was dominate in the first half but not totally, by the second half the sting was well and truely gone out of their scrum from all the work they had to do around the ground. I don’t think putting the blame on one person is justified, particularly when others were also under pressure.
So what you are saying, If one front rower got dominated 4 times and the other 3 times, the former is a poor scrummager and the later is a great scrummager or should at least take none of the blame for anything that goes wrong with the scrum.
May 14th 2012 @ 7:40pm
jeznez said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:40pm | Report comment
MR, I’m of the opinion that the two best loosehead scrummagers at the Reds are Holmes and Slipper. If those two played there and they had someone else at tighthead then I think they would be a lot better off.
It is guess work as to whether the sting was gone from the scrum or the change in personnel had effect. Our opinions are different and that is ok – have you watched a lot of Chiefs games over the year and noticed a large drop off as games have progressed? I haven’t personally seen one.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:22pm
MR said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:22pm | Report comment
Yes we will have to disagree, Daley is the better option which is why Ewen keeps picking him, I think you and I will agree he is more knowledgible than both you and I.
It’s not really guess work whether the sting had gone out of the Chiefs scrum, it just stands to reason that a scrum would be fresher at the beginning of a game rather than half way through. As for whether it is common for the chiefs scrum to drop off in the second half, again it stands to reason that it should but they haven’t had to encounter pressure particularly at the breakdown like that this year, and understandably be a bit zapped. Just an opinion.
May 15th 2012 @ 12:41am
jeznez said | May 15th 2012 @ 12:41am | Report comment
Ewen has often picked front rowers for their work around the field. rather than their scrummaging. He was assistant to Eddie Jones when we stopped picking scrummagers at the Wallaby level. Why on earth we let Rod Moore go overseas when the cupboard was relatively bare has always bemused me.
Polota-Nau is a significantly stronger scrummager than Freier and Ewen consistently played TPN off the bench for the Tahs.
Baxter being the most capped prop in Waratahs history happened largely under Ewen.
Daley is the stronger around field player, when compared to Holmes. When it comes to hit ups, tackling and breakdown work Daley is more effective. I believe that is why Ewen selects him and that Holmes is the superior LHP scrummager doesn’t sway Link.
May 14th 2012 @ 7:51am
Dasher said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
I agree that Gill is a better prospect than Pocock. Sure Pocock is a great 7, but he is slow carrying around all that bulk. Gill is quick, lithe and accurate and it shouldn’t be too long before he surpasses Pocock – if Deans gives him any opportunity. Somebody said that Gill would have to swap to 6 to stand a chance of getting a Wallaby jersey – well then why not put the larger Pocock at 6 to give Gill a chance at 7 for the greater good of the Wallabies?
May 14th 2012 @ 8:00am
mania said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:00am | Report comment
have to disagree dahser. gill is better at super level but remains to be seen whether he can foot it at test level. pococks been pretty consistent at test level for the past 3 seasons. u dont drop someone of that class frivolously.
i do think though that gill deserves a shot and should start at 7 and see if pocock can play at 6. if not then gill will have to prove himself again but at test level as to whether he can dethrone pocock.
at the very least there is finally cover at 7 for pocock, or pocock can cover gill if he proves that he’s everything he promises.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:38am
Train Without A Station said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
I’d say Pocock can’t play anywhere other than 7. He lacks the skillset of a 6 or 8. While a great 7, he really isn’t a great rugby player. Between Gill and Robinson at the Reds they cover 6 and 7 well because Beau does the running game of a 6, Gill does the line out jumping and then they both have the high work rate, Beau being more physical and Gill being more mobile. I don’t see this working as well in tandem with Pocock however.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:55am
formeropenside said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
I’ve actually always thought Pocock had the running and linking game for an 8.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:42am
terrykidd said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Gill has only just truned 20 years old guys ….. he has some time yet
May 14th 2012 @ 2:43pm
PeterK said | May 14th 2012 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
agree. Pocock is proven at intl level against strong teams.
Having good games at super level doesnt lift gill above Pocock, lets see if he can do it at intl first.
Pocock has improved his running game. He breaks tackles, and offloads which he never used to do.
His work rate is enormous in defence and attack. His skill at pilfers is the highest level.
No way would I rate Gill or Hooper above him.
I would not lay him at 6 since Higgs is a far better 6 and Palu is the best option at 8.
However Pocock would make a far better 6 than Hodgson or Brown who have both been tried there.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:18am
Behold said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:18am | Report comment
Gill has had a few amazing games he is a great pilferer of the ball, but Pocock has it over him in every other aspect of the game and this will probably continue due to Pocock’s much larger bulk that makes him a weapon with the ball in hand. I agree if Gill wants to get into the Wallabies team he is going to have to develop a running and distribution game but he is very young and has time to improve. Hooper is going to be included in the Test squad for the June test and more than likely will be the back up for the tri-nations. Gill might be a spring tourist I think, playing in the mid week games and getting him use to the environment of being in the Wallabies. Hodgson is probably having his best season at the Force so he might still be considered the ideal back row replacement on the bench, since he regularly plays 6,7 and 8. But it is difficult to guess what Robbie is going to do, since he threw out his entire WC plan after the reds won the super comp last year.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:01am
Dasher said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:01am | Report comment
I’ve said the same in another article’s comments section and I’m preaching to the choir, but Deans should really use these June Tests as a proving ground for fringe players. Although I say that with caution after he sorta did that against Samoa last year!! Deans cobbled together a very crap squad for that game – a squad that would have struggled even if they had a fortnight’s practice.
For every one of the June Tests, he must rotate in a couple of new players amongst the incumbents (like they regularly do in the ABs). Too many new faces and we will have a repeat of the Samoa game, but too little will waste almost a “free hit” to blood new players. The benefits would be immense to both the Wallabies and the Super franchises.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:09am
rl said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Robbie had a plan? Mate, the Wobbs played NOTHING like the Reds, so whatever his plan was and became, I think the dog ate it.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:17am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:17am | Report comment
Surely the back row is the easiest of Deans’ selections this year.
Palu, Pocock, Higginbotham and Mowen are the first choice and will be needed against Wales with the only decision to be if Higginbotham or Mowen sits on the bench and replaces Palu after 60 minutes.
For Scotland isn’t Gill off with the U20s team? That leaves Hooper, Dennis and Hodgson as the form second-string backrow although it may not be since the Brumbies and Waratahs play the weekend before that Tuesday. Brown, McCalman, Schatz, Robinson could all be in with a chance for that Tuesday game.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:24am
formeropenside said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Screw the U20′s, give Gill his chance to be an actual Wallaby.
May 14th 2012 @ 12:31pm
The Bush said | May 14th 2012 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
He’s got the rest of his life to do that, you only get a limited time to be an U20 player, let him have a little fun and develope at the same time (plus he is the captain of the side – a worthwhile experience in itself).
May 14th 2012 @ 1:05pm
Sage said | May 14th 2012 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Agreed Bush. As I already said on another page, am really keen to see how he goes now at the U20′s with the Superugby experience under his belt. Happy for him to sit it out of the WB’s totally this year too if need be. There is no hurry with him. Far more to be lost than gained. I don’t mind the idea of unleashing him against the Lions next year with him having had less international profile and with another year of Superugby under his belt.
May 14th 2012 @ 1:53pm
Jutsie said | May 14th 2012 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
Sage, your comment brings back memories of a young G. Smith being set loose against an unsuspecting lions team 12 years ago.
May 14th 2012 @ 6:20pm
Sage said | May 14th 2012 @ 6:20pm | Report comment
And that turned out reasonably well Jutsie ! We can only hope
May 14th 2012 @ 9:39am
Harry said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Can we just keep the hype on Gill under control? The guy is still a teenager. Yes sensational in the last two weeks but Pocock has dlivered in test matches for a few years now. And the Brumbies Hooper has also been in terrific form this year.
What worked yesterday was Beau coming on the 2nd half, we and Gill teamed extraordinarly well.
ONe possible solution would be Pocock to start at 7 then move to 6 or 8 for Hooper or GIll (but not in June). But balance is an issue, IMO Higgers is a certainty but he needs to learn more about number 8 play in the scrum so may be best left at 6.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:52am
Schtumpy said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Higginbotham improved yesterday after Daley’s exit strengthened the scrum.
I agree that his scrum work is still short of what Palu – or even Samo – can deliver.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:00am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:00am | Report comment
Agreed. But it is an improvement from what he could do last year. He is now genuinely capable of covering no.8 for the last 20 minutes of an international when Palu runs out of legs and is subbed.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:12am
Schtumpy said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Agreed.
And I believe his all round play has improved as well.
He’s now a genuine leader in the Reds pack instead of a bloke who could come up with occasional flashy cameos.
May 14th 2012 @ 2:48pm
PeterK said | May 14th 2012 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
totally agree. Start Higgs at 6, move him to 8 for the last 20 and bring on Gill to 7 and move Pocock to 6 for the last 20.
Mowen is not neat the class of any of thos players so I would not include him.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:13am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:13am | Report comment
Gill is a freak I’m a Kiwi and I am mightily impressed with this kid in recent weeks, hype him up all the way he deserves the plaudits.
He is by far one of if not the best 7 in SR at the moment.
Lets judge him internationally when he plays a test match.
At this present moment in time he is defecating all over the competiton
May 14th 2012 @ 2:43pm
Handles said | May 14th 2012 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
Hey, I have been keeping the lid on the hype for about two years, and it is time to take it off! The kid is a freak. I would still start Pocock, as I don’t want to ruin Liam, and he needs another 2 or 3 kgs and 12 months to really develop physically. However Gill in the last 20 as a replacement for, or in tandem with Pocock will be absolutely killer. Hooper? Bloody hell, it never rains till it pours. Why couldn’t one of them be a prop?
May 14th 2012 @ 8:05pm
MikeG said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:05pm | Report comment
Or a #10…or 12…or 13!!!
May 14th 2012 @ 7:54am
Serge said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:54am | Report comment
Must say I’m loving the conference system. As only new to rugby and the super rugby system thanks to my kiwi girlfriend the conference system to me is a winner. As a keen follower of US sport this conference system is the best in the world because teams from the same conference can still meet in the championship final. I went to the Rebels game on Saturday night it was unbelievable!
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May 14th 2012 @ 9:49am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:49am | Report comment
They could still meet in the round robin final and it was more likely this would occur happening on no less than 6 occasions
2010 Bulls vs Stormers, 07 Bulls (A) vs Sharks, 06 Crusaders vs Hurricanes, 03 Blues vs Crusaders, 99 Crusaders (A) vs Highlanders, 98 Crusaders (A) vs Blues
A = Won final away from home
In 14 years of the round robin format 42% of the finals played were between teams from the same country.
In the same period NZ supplied over 50% of all finalists.
The conference system was brought in to increase revenue by getting bums on seats and pay per view subscriptions up in countries where its teams were struggling to consistently make finals and also to nullify the overwhelming influence NZ teams have had on finals in Super rugby. Of in 15 years of SR completed NZ teams have amassed 10 titles.
The current system is more about revenue than it is about the actual quality of rugby and its finalists
May 14th 2012 @ 10:22am
Rugby Diehard said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Jarman – Right now if the conference standings were changed (still I might add with plenty of games to play) there would be the massive change of Brumbies going from 3rd to 4th. Last year all the gripes were coming because of the easy points available to the Reds by playing in the “weakest conference” and and this year its because a team may or may not receive a home ground advantage based on points. Lets face it the teams are pretty evenly balanced and virtually every team in the comp has the ability to beat any other team. The best team in the comp will ultimately win, which was the Reds last year and this year it is most unclear.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:39am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Your post in no way at all refutes anything that I have raised in my post RD.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:03am
Rugby Diehard said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Jarmen – OK, I will spell it out for you, I have read your posts above and you seem to have some seriously convoluted ideas about how to decide who the best team is – but I can only assume that, like most Aus and NZ rugby supporters you want to see Super Rugby that is played at its best and won by the best side.
You are suggesting that Rugby is going to be the loser through the conference system, which I think is wrong. My point was that virtually any team on any day can get a performance up to beat any other side and with some sensational running rugby (Rebels vs Crusaders case in point). So if you are trying to say that the Rugby is poorer and that the best side doesn’t always win I think you are wrong. NB the exception to this is any game refereed by Bryce Lawrence where he decides who should win.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:20am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
How are my ideas convoulted RD is it simply due to the fact that I and many others do not agree with your view so obviously we are wrong?
Your point about any team being able to beat any team is no great revelation it happens everyday in everysport around the world it is not specific to SR.
the fact is Home ground advantage makes a huge difference and 9 times out of ten is the difference between a team winning and losing you CANNOT discount that fact!
Your ridiculous exception to the Rule re BL only highlights how ridiculous your post here is.
The Rebles played well there is no denying that however when you take into account the Crusaders took into this match sitting out 5 ABs on the bench and bringing them on when the game was out of reach not to mention had it been played in Christchurch I would wager my house the result would have been much different. the Crusaders were arrogant and got a little too complascent and were rightfully taught a lesson.
However under this system the best team will not necessarily win thecompetition and there is every chance a team will go further simply because they are guaranteed a home semi for winning a conference yet finishing lower down the order. Again this comes back to HOME GROUND ADVANTAGE do you not understand this concept?
May 14th 2012 @ 12:35pm
Rugby Diehard said | May 14th 2012 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Not sure what it is you think my view is, I am neither for or against the Conference system but it does seem like a sensible way to run the tournament geographically and as ‘m not privy to the inner sanctum of the SANZAR financials I’ll have to take their word for it that it is the most profitable as well.
What I do disagree with is that it has affected the quality of the rugby in a negative manner and that it is not allowing the best side to win the comp.
May 14th 2012 @ 1:02pm
Justin2 said | May 14th 2012 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Slice and dice the Crusaders any way you like but they were outplayed regardless of which team was on the paddock. They just arent as good as many believe nowadays and the Rebels played potentially their best match ever.
May 14th 2012 @ 1:49pm
Lippy said | May 14th 2012 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
I agree thrown Crusaders were poop but they didn’t take the game seriously and thought they could sit their top players and still expect to win. I’m glad Melbourne beat them it was a deserved victory. People put this Crusaders team up on.a pedestal and arguably rightfully so. However its clear the Saders of 2012 are not in the same class as teams of years gone by.
I think you do the Rebels a disservice by saying the played their best game ever, I personally think the Rebels played a much better game in their narrow loss to the Bulls.
May 14th 2012 @ 2:10pm
Justin2 said | May 14th 2012 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
“potentially their best match ever.”
May 14th 2012 @ 7:35pm
Rugby Diehard said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:35pm | Report comment
Jarmen – I was hoping to get a response but understand you’ve been involved in some really classy debate below, so will forgive you. Do you think the Rugby being played under the current system is inferior to that being played under the round robin system, because personally I think the Rugby being played now is sensational and getting back to where the Super comp was 6 or 7 years ago.
I would also like to chime in to some of your ridiculous rationale – you don’t like the conference system because you feel it affords a potential advantage to a team finishing top of their conference who would otherwise have been forced into an away final. Specifically, you say that 3 could beat 4 at home and then 1 and 2 could lose at home so 3 would have an undeserved home final. You also say in another post that 90% of games are decided by home team advantage. I am seriously confused – you are worried about the top finishing teams losing home finals and so in some way being disadvantaged by a home winning finalist gaining an advantage form their home losses – even though by your own reckoning this is highly unlikely to happen?!?!?!? What the !@#!@#? Can we just stick to the quality of Rugby and best team winning argument, because you are just sounding like a Kiwi whose making excuses in advance for a potential loss. Not the first time I might add…..
May 14th 2012 @ 10:22pm
Lippy said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:22pm | Report comment
Rugby I think you might want to re read what Jarmen wrote then come back because your post is do far off the Mark as to what he actually wrote it is laughable.
It actually makes you look a little foolish that you have it all so twisted.
You sure are very wide of the Mark and look.liyke typical Australian to use your lines in reverse. Whining because someone has raised a valid point that you do not like all the while Jarmen has done so without the need to resort to personal attacks and juvenile taunts.
My stomach hurts from laughing so much on how you have blatantly tried to twist what he has said.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:07am
Redzilla said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:07am | Report comment
One point of disagreement Spiro (I always have 1 quibble). The ARU did not do a management clean out of the QRU from what I recall – its was Chairman Rod McCall. He invited the ARU in and recruited the new management. Certainly the ARU played an important funding and governance role, but the hardly warrant ALL the credit.
May 14th 2012 @ 8:49am
Will Sinclair said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
I think you’re both right, Red.
If I’m not mistaken, the Reds were basically broke, which forced the hand of both the ARU and Rod McCall.
But whatever happened, it’s been great for QLD and Aussie rugby. That’s for sure.
May 14th 2012 @ 4:52pm
sph45 said | May 14th 2012 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
wasn’t Spiro complaining that the reds were broke, like, two weeks ago?
May 14th 2012 @ 8:14am
sixo_clock said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:14am | Report comment
This argument has played many times in the Roar. The NSW run organisations have not yet mustered the will or desire to expand and grow our sport. They are awed, defeated, beaten down by the hubris of League.
Sell the ‘Tahs to a consortium or publicly owned enterprise, get the training staff from outside the state and STOP blaming the players. It is the banality of what is around them that is uninspiring.
They could start by trying to poach Brumby managers, Kiwi coaches and a name change, that will see a big change for the better.
As for the Reds, what took them so long? Rugby didn’t change over the summer break. Who forgot to top up the oil? The miasma of entitlement fogs their thinking too.
Go the Brumbies, Rebels and Force, this are where the hunger and drive will (eventually) dominate Oz Rugby.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:13am
rl said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
“miasma of entitlement”? That’s a million dollar diagnosis there Sigmund for somehting that can simply be put down to physical and mental fatigue – no coincidence that the Reds players that are now running into form are the ones that played a very long year last year.
Or maybe you are right… in that case Jimmy Howill and Rob Simmons sure “entitled” the bejesus out of the Chiefs yesterday.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:03am
sixo_clock said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Dearest qrl,
I would have thought that the efforts of Gill, Ant, Harris, Morahan, Lucas, Schatz, Shipperley were more telling than the locks.
What part of this season has reinvigorated the Reds’ Wallabies if they were fatigued at the start, exactly what is the coincidence only you comprehend?
all my love,
Sigmund
May 14th 2012 @ 11:12am
rl said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:12am | Report comment
you’re so right – the locks really are an unnecessary part of the game aren’t they? And those fat blokes that waddle aimlessly between those annoying pushy-bargy things too. Do nothing, completely irrelevant. The game would be so much more enriching if it was just flankers and a backline.
And yes, it must just be me that thought it was a long season last year. I obviously imagined the whole RWC and spring tour. Silly me, I’ve been chewing the insane root again. Note to self: must stop.
May 14th 2012 @ 4:12pm
sixo_clock said | May 14th 2012 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Before you go blind anyway. That is good advice. From Qld are you?
ps: Having something to say doesn’t mean you have something to say – discuss (without dribbling).
May 14th 2012 @ 5:02pm
rl said | May 14th 2012 @ 5:02pm | Report comment
I’m sorry, my banjo lesson has now ended and you have my full atention. You were saying something about yourself?
May 14th 2012 @ 8:33am
Joshy said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:33am | Report comment
I hate this conference system so much. If the South African sides aren’t good enough to make the finals, for example, (even though they clearly are) then I don’t want them going in undeservedly ahead of a team with more points, it is totally embarrassing. What purpose does this serve? All you’ll see is a far lesser side get totally destroyed by teams that do deserve to be there. Go back to only 4 spots. Agree with Rhino at the top, imagine the injustice of the Stormers finishing pretty much equal 1st yet they only get the 4th spot below lesser teams?
Backward, childish thinking. Will it only change when an Aus or NZ side gets wronged?
May 14th 2012 @ 8:49am
katzilla said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Take your tin foil hat off, NZ have a better history in Super Rugby and if anyone is being ripped off it is NZ.
The conference system is obviously designed to keep all three countries interested once the finals start.
Whether NZ or South Africa need it at this present time is debatable, but as Sanzar partners we also have to ensure that Australia if weak are getting a fair shake.
I think each country deserves a finalist guarantee, i just disagree with the automatic home final.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:08am
Joshy said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Why do you think that this has suddenly been put in place? Since 2007 SA teams have woken up and have owned this competition. Conference system immediately introduced after an all South African final happening twice within a four year period.
May 14th 2012 @ 9:21am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
And an all-South African final doesn’t benefit SANZAR when it comes to revenue.
The Super 15 is there to make money – don’t kid yourselves. The conference system decreases the likelihood of NZ dominating the next 15 years of competition the way they did the first 15 (10 NZ wins, 3 SA wins, 2 Aus wins). That is a good thing.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:34am
Jarmen said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:34am | Report comment
This is exactly why the conference system was brought into place, revenue and to decrease New Zealands dominance.
In the 15 years of round robin competition.
NZ produced 16 of the 30 Finalists winiing 10 titiles, on four occasions they were all NZ affairs.
In the same period NZ has produced 29 of 60 semifinalists
In 12 of 15 seasons NZ has supplied 50% or more of the semifinalists
NZ has supplied 75% of the finalists on three occasions 98, 03, 09
Only on one occasion has a NZ failed to make the top four in 2001
South Africa produced 7 finalists winning three titles on two occasions they were all SA affairs.
SA has produced 17 semifinalists
In 15 seasons SA has qualified 50% of the semifinalistson 4 occasions
SA has failed to make the top four on two occasions
Australia produced 7 finalists winning two titles never has a final been an all Australian affair.
Australia has produced 14 semifinalists
In 15 seasons Australia qualified 50% of the semifinalists on two occasions
Australia has failed to make the top four on three occasions
May 14th 2012 @ 10:46am
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:46am | Report comment
Which is exactly what you’d expect given the relative strengths of the All Blacks, Springboks and Wallabies.
It also shows that while the Australian conference is certainly comparatively “less strong” than the NZ and SA conferences it is not “weak”. I take issue with the nomenclature being bandied about.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:55am
Sam Taulelei said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:55am | Report comment
Actually Super 15 isn’t there to make money, the Tri Nations and now the Rugby Championship funds Super rugby as that is where the true value of the broadcasting rights deal is – the internationals.
There are less costs and overheads involved with funding The Rugby Championship and greater profits.
May 14th 2012 @ 10:50am
Sam Taulelei said | May 14th 2012 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Suddenly put in place?
The history of the Super 15 conference system playoffs format goes like this.
All three countries submitted their proposals for the Super 15 format in 2008 for discussion.
In 2009 SA sold the domestic rights for the Currie Cup in a separate deal to SANZAR and wanted to protect at all costs the value of that broadcasting deal when NZ and Australia were pushing for a longer regular season. Perfectly reasonable and understandable.
All three countries agreed to the conference format and that in an expanded competition the playoffs should also be extended to include six teams instead of the current four.
SA threatened to break away from SANZAR rugby if their demands were not met, namely the Currie Cup would not be affected by any changes to the length of Super rugby and the most significant change – that the winner of each conference would be guaranteed a playoffs spot. Australia and NZ wanted to maintain the original proposal that the top six would be merit based.
If you want to blame anyone for this current state of affairs, contact Oregan Hoskins and co.
The other unresolved demand was that the 15th team should go to the Southern Kings and not Melbourne – there was even a bizarre suggestion from SA that they could relocate the home base of the Kings to Melbourne to placate the ARU.
May 14th 2012 @ 11:18am
Rugby Diehard said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:18am | Report comment
Cracking and informative – thanks Sam. Who’d of thunk it – South Africans being obstinate and unreasonable and then whinging about their own unreasonable outcomes!
May 14th 2012 @ 1:14pm
Sage said | May 14th 2012 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
That’s why I always stop and read when I see Sams name
May 14th 2012 @ 1:29pm
Brett McKay said | May 14th 2012 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
well said Sam, I was waiting for someone to raise that this whole finals format was at the behest of South Africa..
May 14th 2012 @ 1:42pm
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
Don’t tell Jarmen, his head might implode if you present him with facts that don’t support his preconceived idea that Australian teams don’t deserve to win Super Rugby titles.
May 14th 2012 @ 2:00pm
Lippy said | May 14th 2012 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
Nowhere in his posts has he said Australian teams do not deserve to win.titles.
What he has argued is the way finalists are determined.
Your post is factually incorrect and simply a personal attack.
You yourself state the conference systems helps to diminish the NZ influence and you back this up by saying it is a good thing.
You therefore are advocating that for Australian teams to have a chance we need to artificially stack aspects of the competition to suit Australian and Saffa teams.
A little ironic don’t you think?
May 14th 2012 @ 3:44pm
Red Kev said | May 14th 2012 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Gee I’m so sorry Jarmen maybe I misread you after all. So when you posted “The Reds were helped along by a very poor Australian conference last year and to deny that is ignorance” obviously you really meant that the Reds thoroughly deserved their win last year dispatching the defending champion Bulls, the South African conference winning Stormers and New Zealand conference winning Crusaders during the season on their way to a 15-3 record (6-2 against Australian teams, 5-1 against New Zealand teams, and 4-0 against South African teams) and grand final triumph.
I guess it was a typo on your part.
May 14th 2012 @ 7:12pm
zhenry said | May 14th 2012 @ 7:12pm | Report comment
Why was NZ pushing for a longer regular season? Whos mainly responsible for this continued expansion and for whos benefit?
May 14th 2012 @ 8:16pm
sheek said | May 14th 2012 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
Sammy T,
I concur with others – well done!
Nothing like straightening out a few Roarers now & then…..!!!
May 14th 2012 @ 11:10am
nomis said | May 14th 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
What Katzilla said
May 14th 2012 @ 6:01pm
Suzy Poison said | May 14th 2012 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
Mate, I am a Saffa and a Stormers supporter and I support the Conference system. Just because a team gets a home semi, it doesn’t mean that they are guaranteed a win. Remember the Stormers got smashed by the Crusaders last year, at home! The Stormers finished as South African Conference winners and in second place on the table. Quality normally shines thru, the tougher teams know how to win away from home. If the Brumbies or the Reds finish top of Australian Conference, teams likes the Crusaders, Stormers, Chiefs or Bulls still have a very good chance of knocking them over, at their home grounds. The New Zealand teams and possibly even the Saffa teams (with the exceptions of the Lions who are a joke) are just more battle hardened because of their tougher conference. It all works out in the wash-up.
Lastly no-one has noticed the Canadian, who had a massive World Cup, Jeb Sinclair is playing for the Stormers now.