Bring on the Indo-Pacific Rugby Competition … now

Rhys Bosley Roar Rookie

By Rhys Bosley, Rhys Bosley is a Roar Rookie

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202 Have your say

    Like every Aussie rugby supporter who still believes in a fair go, I was left with a mix of anger and sadness for our mates in the West when I heard the NSW Supreme Court has decreed that the Western Force will be no more.

    There were a few different article ideas floating around my head about what I would like to say about the ARU’s conduct on this matter, in the hope that something might be learned from this sorry saga.

    Then I saw Cameron Clyne’s interview yesterday afternoon. He simply stuck to the script that Andrew Forest’s $50 million offer to the ARU to keep the Force in the competition was made too late.

    Clyne made no mention of the relevant fact that before Andrew Forest even entered into this affair, grassroots Force fans joined in to stump up $1000 each in an effort to save their club. They raised plenty, a testament to the financial capacity and commitment of that club to remain viable.

    Even reports that the Force axing decision was done and dusted days before the float went live failed to convince the West Australians not to put their money where their mouths are.

    The interview with Clyne immediately changed my feelings from anger and sadness to the determination not to let this decision cause a further ounce of angst.

    I’m sure that Clyne believes he is a good bloke who has had to make a hard decision. However, I feel he is wrong in this matter.

    Sadly, the board members who have supported him are in the same boat. They would have come up with their own innovative solutions to protect the interests of West Australian rugby if they weren’t.

    Suffice to say that as a long-term, Test-attending, formerly Foxtel-subscribing rugby fan, I now don’t feel the need to continue to support the ARU through the continued purchase of their products. This is beyond hoping to convince the board to change the way they act, because that clearly isn’t going to happen.

    Now I just don’t want to give them any of my money, because it would make me feel icky.

    Bill Pulver Cameron Clyne press conference

    (AP Photo/Rick Rycroft)

    But the silver lining is that Forest has indicated that he is looking to establish a competition in the Indo-Pacific Region so that professional rugby may live in the West. I say ‘good on ya Twiggy’, it’s a great idea and I hope it becomes reality.

    Furthermore, I hope that games are available for viewing to people outside of the region where the competition will be played, via some sort of affordable web-based broadcasting arrangement.

    If this was available, I would certainly be happy to watch games and adopt the Force as my team while they take on the pride of Asia. Perhaps the Force could combine web access with some sort of membership for non-Western Australia based Western Australians and supportive Easterners? “Nullarbor memberships”, as it were. 

    I am equally sure that there would be plenty of Australian-based expats from the participant nations in Asia who would like to be able to watch their teams from afar.

    I will also be really interested to see what sort of innovative competition that the Western Australians can come up with. If there was ever a time when we needed something new to break the patterns of tribalism, groupthink and patronage that have dragged Australian elite rugby administration from being top of the world only 15 years ago to the current doldrums, it is now.

    It would be great if the Westerners could show us how it is done.

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    The Crowd Says (202)

    • September 7th 2017 @ 5:49am
      Ex force fan said | September 7th 2017 @ 5:49am | ! Report

      On the theme not to give me ARU another cent:
      – instead of paying for the Force IP, consider rebranding to something like the Black Swans. The rebranding will help to sell merchandise and we can use the Own the Force money better than handing it over to the stinkers
      – if you want to go to Saturday’s test have a look on gumtree where tickets are selling.at discounted prices

      What would be important to raise interest in the IndoPacific comp is to attract marquee players, alla IPL, to strengthen the respective teams until they develop their own star power.

      I noticed an article in the West that Wessels, the coaching staff and some of the Force players refuse to sign for the Rebels. The Rebels reportedly were interested in 15 Force players and the coach – so basically talking the core of the Force side and give them Rebel jumpers. Who can blame them? Who would want to put on a jumper of the team that only survived by an ARU underhanded deal at the cost of the opportunity to build something special with your team mates that have already done the hard yards. The players will realize that the Rebels will have to rebuild from scratch and that they will struggle next year. Also by having so many Ex-Force players in one squad will not help to build a united side. It looks more likely that many will take the money and stay in Perth. Karma Rebels, karma…

      • September 7th 2017 @ 8:08am
        The Slow Eater said | September 7th 2017 @ 8:08am | ! Report

        Mate. It wasn’t the Rebels who kicked out the Force. Direct your anger at the ARU who deserve it.

        And of course the Rebels would try and get some of the Force players – their trying to operate in the most competitive sporting market on the globe. Surely it is also good for the players who could have the opportunity to still play in Australia.

        • September 7th 2017 @ 9:06am
          Ex force fan said | September 7th 2017 @ 9:06am | ! Report

          I will have “schandenfreugde” if the Rebels continue to struggle, especially if they continue to make huge losses and the ARU must continue to bail them out. Players that sign up for the Rebels should recognize that they join a club that will need to re-build from a very low base. It takes years to get a team competitive and if there is no immediate improvement their future may be threatened . Do you really want to go through this drama again? If I was a player the Rebels would be my very last option.

          • Roar Guru

            September 7th 2017 @ 10:55am
            PeterK said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:55am | ! Report

            agree, won’t be long before another team is cut, or super rugby folds.

            • Roar Rookie

              September 7th 2017 @ 11:19am
              piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:19am | ! Report

              And I wonder if this IndoPacific dealy won’t be a nice place for a side like the Force to hibernate (so to speak) till the ARU gets its act together.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 11:37am
                PeterK said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:37am | ! Report

                can’t see the aru coming back from this.

                If the pro14 works for sa I see all their teams migrating to european comps.

                End of super rugby.

                Start of the end of professional rugby for aust imo. Will revert back to just nswru and qldru and amateur.

              • September 7th 2017 @ 3:19pm
                cuw said | September 7th 2017 @ 3:19pm | ! Report

                PeterK said

                ” If the pro14 works for sa I see all their teams migrating to european comps. End of super rugby. ”

                but u seem to miss the point that the kind of expansion u think will happen is the main reason super rugger is rubbish.

                it used to be fine at super 12 , it was even ok at super 14 . the rot started with the expansion and conferences and all that followed.

                everything has a critical mass. once u exceed that it will explode.

                look at the two main competitions in Europe – Aviva and top 14 . how many teams are there?

                it is not so easy for these tournaments to expand becoz they also have to play the FKA Heineken cup. as far as i know the saffa teams are not eligible for it as of now.

                there is a move in England to expand Aviva , which has been opposed by players association.

                the mechanics of euro leagues is not that easy to tinker with – unlike the silly super rugger…

          • September 7th 2017 @ 3:45pm
            olly said | September 7th 2017 @ 3:45pm | ! Report

            Interesting read saying that it takes years for a team to become competitive….Have you heard of a team called the ACT Brumbies by any chance?

            Founded in 1996
            1996, came 5th just missing out on the finals using players dubbed the rejects.
            1997, made the finals
            1998, Coach change and came 10th
            1999, came 5th,
            2000, hosted a home final but lost by 1 point
            2001, won super rugby.

            1 Championship, 3 finals, final made in 2nd year all within the first 5 years. Seems like they did not need years.

            The Queensland Reds went from 13th, 5th to Champions in only 3 seasons. Seems like a quick turn around….

            NSW Waratahs, in the bottom 4 teams to champion in a session….hmmm one season turn around to champions.

            Some people will say the Force just came 2nd in the Australian conference this year. An achievement by the coach for sure. But the reality is this result is due to poor performance by the Australian teams across the board. All Australian teams performed poorly in 2017 and this is why we are 4 not 5 now.

            I also think now that it is done you will be surprised about how quick players with Wallabies aspirations will join the Rebels. I am certain the players management can see and will advise that the ARU will look after the Rebels and make sure the Rebels players get maximum exposure for advertising helping increase the players brand to the public and endorsements…or just go overseas and make some money. The new coach is key to the Rebels success and it would be great to see the Force coach stay in Australian Rugby. If he can turn that club around, Wallabies career is on the horizon for him.

            • September 7th 2017 @ 6:08pm
              Marlins Tragic said | September 7th 2017 @ 6:08pm | ! Report

              Yep your correct on all points, BUT, how many of the players came up through the ACT pathway, bugger all I say, save for Roff, Gregan, Larhkam & Kafer!

              • September 8th 2017 @ 9:04am
                Bakkies said | September 8th 2017 @ 9:04am | ! Report

                Nonsense. Over half of the original Brumbies squad was from the ACT club competition and the Kookaburras team that was playing in the Shut Shield.

          • September 7th 2017 @ 4:41pm
            Brian said | September 7th 2017 @ 4:41pm | ! Report

            Fair enough – when the Force joined Super Rugby ahead of the Rebels 12/13 years I was hoping the Force would lose every game (which they basically did)!!

      • September 7th 2017 @ 9:45am
        LMS said | September 7th 2017 @ 9:45am | ! Report

        I’m all in favour of not giving the ARU another cent. But we need to make sure its noticed – if you decide not to go to the game, email the ARU and tell them why. If you decide not to watch on TV (or choose an ‘alternative’ way of watching) then tell Channel 10 and Foxtel why you won’t be watching (https://www.facebook.com/channelten/ or https://www.foxtel.com.au/about/contact-us.html) .Let companies that have commercial arrangements with the ARU (for example Vodafone) your feelings about the way the game is being run.
        Otherwise we’ll just be ignored.

        • Roar Rookie

          September 7th 2017 @ 11:47am
          piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:47am | ! Report

          If you stand on the grass behind the ticket office at the gate on Bulwer St you can see the big screen from outside.

          • September 7th 2017 @ 1:51pm
            kaiviti said | September 7th 2017 @ 1:51pm | ! Report

            Scale the coconut tree and watch the game for free. That’s how we did it Suva in the 60″s when the All Blacks and Lions played. Since then the government has built a National Stadium and now kids have to pay to get in. Progress !!!

            • September 7th 2017 @ 3:14pm
              Moz said | September 7th 2017 @ 3:14pm | ! Report

              Not sure there are many coconut trees in East Perth…..

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 5:16pm
                Lano said | September 7th 2017 @ 5:16pm | ! Report

                plenty of fig trees…

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 5:16pm
                Lano said | September 7th 2017 @ 5:16pm | ! Report

                plenty of fig trees…

          • Roar Guru

            September 7th 2017 @ 5:22pm
            Timbo (L) said | September 7th 2017 @ 5:22pm | ! Report

            The idea of protest is to start change. The courts have ruled that this isn’t going to happen.

            If you sit on my couch you can see the game on a 55″ Sony Flat Screen TV sipping frothy beverages and eating meat filled pastries or burgers prepared in a kitchen 5m away.

            The Albion is another pretty good option.

      • September 7th 2017 @ 9:51am
        Bakkies said | September 7th 2017 @ 9:51am | ! Report

        ‘I noticed an article in the West that Wessels, the coaching staff and some of the Force players refuse to sign for the Rebels.’

        Saw that too. The trólls supporting such a honest organisation will be disgusted.

        • September 7th 2017 @ 10:17am
          Moz said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:17am | ! Report

          Well done to Wessels in particular. I think if he had of signed with the Rebels, then everything may have fallen over very quickly. He doesn’t need to rush, as he will be in demand, so great that he is taking his time and seeing how this develops. As it is, Rebels dont have a coach and will want to hold off for as long as possible to see if they can get him. I imagine that even if Wessels waits too long for the Rebels gig, he could always get another one elsewhere pretty easily!

          • September 7th 2017 @ 11:01am
            Ex force fan said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:01am | ! Report

            I think there is a huge risks to Wessels’ reputation to take on the Rebels job. He is a young coach that have to coach very senior players like Genia without the backing of a legend like Hodgo. He is expected to do wonders and turn the franchise around and will not be given enough time to do so as turning a franchise around is a 3 year project. Wessels also do not have the luxury to pick the players and will not enjoy the urgency that a fight for their survival give you to galvanise a team or the support from locals he enjoyed at the Force. This may end his career, so if I were him I would rather stay at the Force where I already have a reputation and have players and officials I can trust.

            • Roar Guru

              September 7th 2017 @ 11:06am
              PeterK said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:06am | ! Report

              except he will lose a lot of his best players

              he would be better off waiting to get the reds gig once stiles is sacked next year.

              • Roar Rookie

                September 7th 2017 @ 11:20am
                piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:20am | ! Report

                To be fair Peter – the Force lost a lot of their best players this and last year as well, it was largely rugby unknowns plus a few stalwarts that gave him results this year

              • September 7th 2017 @ 3:48pm
                olly said | September 7th 2017 @ 3:48pm | ! Report

                I think we should get a movement going.

                Wessels is Red?
                Wessels in Red?

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 3:53pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 3:53pm | ! Report

                Nah. We don’t deserve him in Ballymore.

                We’ve squandered our own good fortune since 2011.

          • September 7th 2017 @ 11:01am
            Bakkies said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:01am | ! Report

            There’s are two job openings in Munster in December for Wessels and Barakat. They would be mad to turn that down in favour of the Rebels.

            • Roar Guru

              September 7th 2017 @ 11:25am
              Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:25am | ! Report

              Well if they wanted to live in Australia they wouldn’t…

              • September 7th 2017 @ 11:40am
                Bakkies said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:40am | ! Report

                All of the other jobs are taken and you would have to be insane to take the Rebels job.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 12:15pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:15pm | ! Report

                Because you dislike Victorian Rugby?

              • September 7th 2017 @ 12:56pm
                Bakkies said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:56pm | ! Report

                They have no money, are poorly run (who will the coach actually work for) and need a complete rebuild.

              • Roar Pro

                September 7th 2017 @ 1:07pm
                Crazy Horse said | September 7th 2017 @ 1:07pm | ! Report

                Wessels isn’t Australian.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 1:09pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 1:09pm | ! Report

                And?

                Only Australians want to live in Australia?

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 5:27pm
                Timbo (L) said | September 7th 2017 @ 5:27pm | ! Report

                The Rebs could have used Wessels this year.
                There was a lot of unfettered talent there, a chunk of it has moved on now.

                That said, I was impressed by the Rising last weekend. MacGregor, Stirzaker and Mattox made it hard for the Spirit. Koribete cashed the Cheques.

              • Roar Pro

                September 7th 2017 @ 9:42pm
                Crazy Horse said | September 7th 2017 @ 9:42pm | ! Report

                Lots of South Africans like it here in Perth, but if forced to move there is no guarantee that they’ll go to the East. They can just as easily move overseas.

              • Roar Guru

                September 8th 2017 @ 3:09pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 8th 2017 @ 3:09pm | ! Report

                And he went to Perth for opportunity after being in Canberra.

              • September 8th 2017 @ 6:30pm
                Dave said | September 8th 2017 @ 6:30pm | ! Report

                He’d be insane to take the Rebels job because come 2020 the same old song and dance will probably start up again.
                Munster on the other hand is secure.

    • September 7th 2017 @ 7:16am
      concerned supporter said | September 7th 2017 @ 7:16am | ! Report

      Rhys,
      Congratulations on your article,I am from Sydney and am astounded at the shabby treatment by the ARU to the Western Force and to the Australian Rugby Public.
      Contradiction after contradiction by Clyne, Pulver & the ARU Board.
      At the first announcement of culling a team on 9 April 2017, these comments were made;
      “Pulver said the ARU contributed $6 million annually to every Australian Super Rugby team, but needed to now redirect the saving from cutting a team into grassroots rugby as well as coaching education and on improving pathways for players and match officials.”
      “Clyne emphasised the decision to cut one of the five Australian sides was taken by the ARU, not Super Rugby governing body SANZAAR”

      So back in April 2017,the ARU was to put back the AUD $6 Million saving back into grassroots,coaching etc.Our NSW Waratah Chairman,.Roger Davis, a compatriot of Clynes,said that NSW & Queensland should receive the bulk of this purported saving. He said he was” unequivocally selfish” about this.
      Now the ARU have changed their story:
      “The ARU released documents on Tuesday (5 September 2017) revealing it could have become insolvent by 2019 if it continued to fund five Super Rugby teams. ”
      Now this saving of AUD $ million will not go to grassroots, coaching or to Roger Davis, it will stay in the ARU’s coffers.
      The ARU have greater chance of becoming insolvent by AUD $ millions drop in their income in 2017& 2018 relating to loss of major partners (sponsors) BMW & Lion Nathan, together with large reduction in their match day income from poor crowds to the Rugby Tests,this year.
      Also speaking to NSW Waratah members recently, the majority that I spoke to are not renewing their memberships for 2018.Best of luck Waratahs.

      • September 7th 2017 @ 8:41am
        AndyS said | September 7th 2017 @ 8:41am | ! Report

        I wouldn’t hold my breath on the $6M having much effect. Two years ago they more than doubled their broadcast income and the next year were apparently already broke again. $6M won’t even touch the sides.

        • September 7th 2017 @ 9:48am
          concerned supporter said | September 7th 2017 @ 9:48am | ! Report

          AndyS,
          You are not sceptical on statements made by the ARU, are you? Most people except TWAS seem to be. The ARU treat the Australian Rugby Public on a need to know basis.
          In 2015 , Sanzaar, ARU negotiated a new 5 year Broadcasting Rights Contract of AUD $285 M over 5 years,
          AUD $57 m per year commencing 1 January 2016.
          The Broadcasting Revenue of the ARU in 2016 trebled from AUD $ 18M to AUD $61 M.
          Now the are crying poor mouth. Maybe they are spending,squandering or wasting too much money.
          Who knows? Maybe they should be like all ASX listed companies and publish Half Yearly Financial Statements (to June 2017). It should be compulsory.

          • September 7th 2017 @ 10:41am
            steveg said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:41am | ! Report

            TWAS actually does have a station, its at the ARU boardroom!!

          • September 7th 2017 @ 10:57am
            Gary said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:57am | ! Report

            The problem is that the ARU are run by the cream of Oz Business types – men of high standing that the rest of us mortals should aspire to , Veritable ‘Maters of the Universe’ and look what they have done to our game !

            Just a bunch of privileged plonkers !

            It’s bloody time our Game is taken back from these duds and given to the people , it was always going to come to this , given the elitist nature of Australian Rugby ( for far too long ) I have previously told of my own brush with rugby elitism in the 70’s Colts rep teams and it has always boiled my blood.

            Our game needs to be taken back by the people , I propose all Clubs , Regions etc threaten to disassociate themselves from the ARU unless a spill of the current Board takes place and give us our game at last and watch Rugby take off !

            The plonkers would rather see the game wither and die than give it to the great unwashed !

            It’s our game ! – so hand it over you bastards !!!

            • Roar Guru

              September 7th 2017 @ 11:26am
              Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:26am | ! Report

              Who do you think should run a $100M business then?

              • September 7th 2017 @ 11:44am
                RahRah said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:44am | ! Report

                People with competance and clarity. Not an old boys club focused only on their own self interest, with a few PC appointments thrown in for good measure in order to please a sponsor who has now pulled the pin

              • Roar Rookie

                September 7th 2017 @ 11:53am
                piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:53am | ! Report

                The point is it isn’t ‘just’ a 100 million dollar business

                It’s also the custodian and highest authority for a beloved sport in Australia

                The deliverables are very different to a bank or other large corporation.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 12:17pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:17pm | ! Report

                Rah Rah,

                So a bunch of people with CV’s that show them running large businesses?

                Great so that’s the current board.

                Piru,

                Absolutely. Just because the sole goal isn’t merely profit, doesn’t mean you can’t look at it in a business sense, just considering the other factors.

              • September 7th 2017 @ 12:21pm
                Gary said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:21pm | ! Report

                so it’s a simple as that is it ? It’s a business FIRST then a game second ? I would have thought it has to be the other way around for it to work and you have inadvertently hit on the problem we face perhaps.

                AFL is a game first and foremost and the business is set up to support and run the game , our game seems to be primarily a business that has Rugby ( aka Wallabies) as ‘it’s’ PRODUCT !

                To your question – anyone else but those privileged plonkers !

              • Roar Rookie

                September 7th 2017 @ 12:44pm
                piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:44pm | ! Report

                Absolutely. Just because the sole goal isn’t merely profit, doesn’t mean you can’t look at it in a business sense, just considering the other factors.

                It’s more than just ‘considering the other factors’ though TWAS – you can’t have robots handling something so many people pour so much emotion into.

                The administration has to, to some degree, reflect the values of the sport.

                Now that I think about it, the ARU officials would have to have signed the same code of conduct that any player or ref would – I wonder if they believe they have upheld it

                decide for yourself

                http://laws.worldrugby.org/?charter=all&language=EN

              • September 7th 2017 @ 12:48pm
                RahRah said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:48pm | ! Report

                What would us “sausage turners” know Piru?

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 12:50pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:50pm | ! Report

                How does this code of conduct apply to propping up professional franchises though?

                It is just considering other factors.

                Passion and emotion are factors, but not the only factors. That passion and emotion won’t pay your players.

              • Roar Rookie

                September 7th 2017 @ 1:26pm
                piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 1:26pm | ! Report

                That passion and emotion won’t pay your players.

                It’s the only thing that will pay your players

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 1:41pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 1:41pm | ! Report

                Not if it doesn’t result in bums on seats and eyeballs on the TV

              • September 7th 2017 @ 2:01pm
                kaiviti said | September 7th 2017 @ 2:01pm | ! Report

                I pointed out in an earlier article regarfding the same issue. Take a page, many pages out of the Rugby League and AFL business manual. If they can run a successful game why can’t Rugby Union. ?

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 2:03pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 2:03pm | ! Report

                Probably because their premiere suburban competitions built themselves into national competitions and tried to include other states from there.

                Where as rugby’s did nothing and then tried to pull everybody outside them down when they got any success.

                That and being full amateur when they were still turning into lucrative national sporting leagues.

            • Roar Guru

              September 7th 2017 @ 11:40am
              PeterK said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:40am | ! Report

              issue is qld and nsw still dominate the voting rights when change is required.

      • September 7th 2017 @ 9:12am
        Ex force fan said | September 7th 2017 @ 9:12am | ! Report

        It is easy to make any long term financial projections tell the story you want it to tell. The ARU’s financial position is degrading because they spend too much on a few players that aren’t worth it. This mismanagement will continue. They also assume that they will not need to bailout the Rebels despite the fact that the Rebels never made an operating profit.

      • Roar Guru

        September 7th 2017 @ 10:52am
        PeterK said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:52am | ! Report

        i hope the aru do go bankrupt now.

        If they are in such parlous circumstances and refused to consider properly the $50m offer properly then they deserve no sympathy.

        Not only were the 6m to the force not required so they didn’t lose any extra money (since that was being underwritten by Forrest) they would have had an extra 50m over some time frame.

        Why? Just to save face of some big ego’s at the ARU , Clyne in particular. Sure not ideal that the offer was so late, however suck it up and try and renegotiate with the stakeholders and get agreement from another special general meeting, then if that was given renogiate with sanzaar. Try all that and if it still would cost too much for breaking the sanzaar / new broadcast contract then fine.

        They didn’t even consider it or try, that is what gets me.

        So don’t cry poor ever again.

        • Roar Guru

          September 7th 2017 @ 11:14am
          Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:14am | ! Report

          Peter, the $50M offer was for the ARF.

          Could not be used for ARU costs.

          Would not have prevented bankruptcy.

          • Roar Guru

            September 7th 2017 @ 11:47am
            PeterK said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:47am | ! Report

            disagree

            What are the aru saving by axing the force? 6M per year given to each team by the aru.

            Now if forrest’s offer meant that money was no longer requied AND any losses of the force was underwritten by forrest then there was additional loss by keeping the force.

            Now if that 50m also meant extra benefit somewhere else in aust rugby that is just cream.

            Unless the aru could show that including forrest’s offer and subsidy of force losses that the aru was still worse off then it is not acceptable.

            If they are not worse off then the aru goes bankrupt either way.

            The didn’t even try to consider the deal, take it back, or then renegotiate with forrest to say it would take no money from the aru to force for anything, or say since it means 1m extra to other 4 teams to kepp them afloat say the aru need no money to be handed to the force AND an extra 4m per year for 2 years (until next broadcast deal) to keep other teams afloat.

            They didn’t try at all.

            • Roar Guru

              September 7th 2017 @ 11:51am
              Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:51am | ! Report

              Forrest’s offer didn’t mean that.

              Forrest’s offer was for the ARF. It would not reduce ARU expenditure in any way at all as funds from it cannot be used there.

              • September 7th 2017 @ 12:38pm
                Unanimous said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:38pm | ! Report

                The ARU can stop spending on some things, and the ARF can replace the spending on those things. It is completely possible for the ARF to save the ARU. The ARF funds a large part of the Wallaroos for example.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 12:42pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:42pm | ! Report

                How much of the Wallaroos does the ARU fund?

                How do you know the expenditure on the Wallaroos isn’t already from the ARF?

        • Roar Rookie

          September 7th 2017 @ 11:21am
          piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:21am | ! Report

          To paraphrase Mr Burns, I rue the day $50 million isn’t worth renegotiating over

          • Roar Guru

            September 7th 2017 @ 11:26am
            Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:26am | ! Report

            The whole premise is false though.

            If I’m going to default on my mortgage and you offer a lot to my favourite charity, whilst very nice, won’t save my house.

            • Roar Rookie

              September 7th 2017 @ 11:37am
              piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:37am | ! Report

              Not a good analogy TWAS

              Rugby development is the ARU’s responsibility, not a charity

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 11:48am
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:48am | ! Report

                It’s essentially charitable donations made from what’s left from the professional game after expenses.

                Any donation to it does not help the ARU’s financial position.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 11:54am
                PeterK said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:54am | ! Report

                twas – they didn’t try and renogitae the offer such that it would help the aru’s financial position, it was rejected out of hand

              • Roar Rookie

                September 7th 2017 @ 11:56am
                piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:56am | ! Report

                Any donation to it does not help the ARU’s financial position

                Only if the ARU makes no contribution whatsoever to grassroots (which I suppose is possible).

                If you have a car loan and a mortgage and I pay off your car, does that not help pay off your house?

              • Roar Pro

                September 7th 2017 @ 1:14pm
                Crazy Horse said | September 7th 2017 @ 1:14pm | ! Report

                in all my years on the boards of various WA community rugby clubs I don’t recall receiving much from the ARU except levies to prop up their extravagance.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 2:07pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 2:07pm | ! Report

                But Piru what the ARU chooses to make community rugby expenditure on and what the ARF grants funds for are not necessarily the same thing.

              • Roar Rookie

                September 7th 2017 @ 5:32pm
                piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 5:32pm | ! Report

                But Piru what the ARU chooses to make community rugby expenditure on and what the ARF grants funds for are not necessarily the same thing.

                Unless the ARU was already spending 50 million, they come out on top

            • Roar Guru

              September 7th 2017 @ 11:50am
              PeterK said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:50am | ! Report

              no if the deal was structured in such a way that no money was given to the force ie no 6m per year then the status quo of what is there now exists.

              The aru has an extra 6m to distribute to the other clubs per year if needed.

              So that means forrest fronts up 12m to the force over 2 years and underwrites any losses for 2 years.

              They didn’t even try.

              • September 7th 2017 @ 12:17pm
                rebel said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:17pm | ! Report

                Agree with that PK

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 2:09pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 2:09pm | ! Report

                Absolutely if the deal was structured that way.

                But it wasn’t.

                Rugby WA knew why the ARU wanted to cut a team. Forrest made his offer in consultation with Rugby WA.

                He could at any time have made an offer that would address some issues and open a negotiation on it.

                He made an offer that sounds really big but does nothing ultimately (for the purpose).

                Perfect for PR and grandstanding.

              • September 7th 2017 @ 2:39pm
                RahRah said | September 7th 2017 @ 2:39pm | ! Report

                And once again TWAS you cherry pick with half truths. Lets go through it again shall we?
                The Force were not going to cost the ARU one red cent, Forrest indemnified them against any loss. The money they claimed that they were going to save by culling the Force was no longer an issue. That money “saved” could now be spent elsewhere, just as they claim they will be doing now. So 5 teams and still save the money – with us all so far?
                They then would not have had to conduct a fire sale of their greatest assets, Test Matches, to the Victorian government and then via the back door funnel EVEN MORE money into the Rebels, the same Rebels who have cost the ARU more than any other team in the SR comp by way of loans and “forgiven” debt.
                In the mean time $50 million dollars was going to be gifted to the game for ALL of Australia by way of a gift to the ARF, not just the EARU cartel to gobble up for their own benefit.
                Like trying to teach Urdu to a badger.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 2:50pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 2:50pm | ! Report

                Sigh.

                The Force were going to cost $6.7M per year.

                That is their annual grant amount.

                Forrest never made any proposal to fund the Force in their entirety. He said he would cover any losses.

                Why is selling test matches a fire sale? Based on current attendance trends, selling tests later may make them worth less. It makes commercial sense to lock in a value now based on current trends.

                If the ARU had locked in all their major tests and a decade ago they’d probably be in better financial shape now.

              • September 7th 2017 @ 3:18pm
                RahRah said | September 7th 2017 @ 3:18pm | ! Report

                Yes,”sigh” indeed,
                The $6.7M cost to the ARU is a loss to the ARU therefore covered by Forrest’s indemnity. You also neglect to consider the “own the Force” campaign that would have allowed the Force to buy back their licence and to fund themselves, so your assertion that they would have cost the ARU any money at all is not grounded in fact, only supposition based an a previous model that would have no longer been the case.
                WRT selling off Test matches, did the EARU put them out to tender? Did they conduct an auction? How do you know that they got the best price for them in the current market? The answer is no they didn’t, opting instead a backdoor funding of the Rebels who continue to be a financial black hole into which the EARU are happy to poor their funds. In my view this is abrogating their fiduciary duties.
                Anyway TWAS keep banging on, the majority of us can see the sham for what it was.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 3:27pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 3:27pm | ! Report

                Not it wasn’t covered.

                No proposal ever covered removing a standard funding obligation from the ARU.

                His offer was to underwrite the Force.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 3:32pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 3:32pm | ! Report

                How do you know they didn’t?

                We don’t even know what the deal covers. So how can you say that they definitely didn’t get market value?

              • September 7th 2017 @ 5:22pm
                RahRah said | September 7th 2017 @ 5:22pm | ! Report

                How can we ever know? They never took it to the market place to find out did they. Using your “mortgage” analogy, I want to clear my mortgage by selling my house so I won’t scope the market place, I’ll just sell it to the first person to make me an offer.

              • September 8th 2017 @ 12:18am
                Train Without A Station said | September 8th 2017 @ 12:18am | ! Report

                They sold a Bledisloe to Perth for 2019.

                They know what the market is.

              • September 8th 2017 @ 9:10am
                Bakkies said | September 8th 2017 @ 9:10am | ! Report

                Rubbish. They didn’t put it out to tender and they sold a Lions test when there is no tours agreed past this year.

            • September 7th 2017 @ 12:07pm
              RahRah said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:07pm | ! Report

              TWAS you keep cherry picking your facts for display.
              The Force were not going to cost the ARU anything, nothing, zip, nada! Forrest guaranteed to underwrite any cost associated with keeping the Force – period. What ever monies the ARU claim would have been consumed by the Force were now available to be spent elsewhere and still 5 teams could have existed.
              Now they have 4 teams, held a fire sale of upcoming tests to Melbourne in order to fund themselves and have just blown $50 million in donations to the game.
              The only salient point you do make is that the money couldn’t be touched by the EARU and gobbled up by the cartel for their own selfish use. Under the current situation, most people outside your camp would think that this was a sensible move on Forrest’s part.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 12:18pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:18pm | ! Report

                No.

                They were going to cost $6.7M a year.

                Forrest was going to underwrite any ARU costs beyond that.

              • September 7th 2017 @ 6:07pm
                In brief said | September 7th 2017 @ 6:07pm | ! Report

                No Forrest was underwriting ALL losses associated with the Force. The 6.7 million would have been redistributed to the other 4 teams while 50
                Million was funnelled into grass roots.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 12:22pm
                PeterK said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:22pm | ! Report

                there is an obligation of the aru to distribute 6m to each team that is in super rugby.

                Now if forrest / force agree to forgo that and if needed forrest supply it instead then fair enough.

                It wasn’t just losses, it needed the ARU needed the extra 6m that it distributes per team each year as part of the super rugby / broadcast agreement.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 2:10pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 2:10pm | ! Report

                $6.7M Peter.

                Don’t go short changing.

                That french champagne in Head Office isn’t going to pay for itself now is it?

        • September 7th 2017 @ 10:30pm
          Kelefua said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:30pm | ! Report

          http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/australian-rugby-union-announces-285-million-broadcast-rights-deal-20151216-glpiq9.html

          It’s an old article but it provides some light on why the ARU continue to tow the SANZAAR line. Combined with their SANZAAR partners the deal is just shy of billion$. Forrest’ $50mil is no small coin but it’s a bit late to consider given the decsion had already been made to have 4 Aussie super teams.. albeit earlier in the year.

          Really hope WA can get a comp up & running that would include some PI/Asian teams. Asia to provide the $$ & PI the entertainment;)

    • September 7th 2017 @ 7:17am
      Damo said | September 7th 2017 @ 7:17am | ! Report

      So people hate Super Rugby because of the timezones, playing in different countries, playing against teams no one cares about etc but for some reason some Mickey Mouse Super Rugby light comp is going to save Australian Rugby???

      • September 7th 2017 @ 10:51am
        Drongo said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:51am | ! Report

        Exactly. What a stupid waste of time this discussion is. Desperadoes embarrassing themselves is all it is.

        • Roar Rookie

          September 7th 2017 @ 11:23am
          piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:23am | ! Report

          No, it’s going to save West Australian rugby, seeing as the ARU decided they didn’t want it.

          Funnily enough there seems to be a lot more desperation from the ‘it’ll never work because’ camp.

          You continue on with your Super Rugby, we’ll do our thing – cheers

          • September 7th 2017 @ 12:21pm
            rebel said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:21pm | ! Report

            That’s what I don’t get Piru, those that not only want to cut the Force but want to stop them doing anything else to survive.
            If you don’t want to support the Indo-Pacific comp then don’t. Let those that do get on with it.

            • Roar Rookie

              September 7th 2017 @ 12:29pm
              piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:29pm | ! Report

              Behind every Steve Jobs and Elon Musk there’s a bunch of people saying “it’ll never work”

              Can you name them?

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 12:30pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:30pm | ! Report

                Yeah but can you name all those guys where the people saying “it’ll never work” were right?

              • Roar Rookie

                September 7th 2017 @ 12:59pm
                piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:59pm | ! Report

                No, but you can’t name the naysayers either – it’s the people who put themselves out there, take a risk, try to make a change who engineer progress.

                It’s easy to stand on the sidelines and say you could have done better.

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 1:01pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 1:01pm | ! Report

                It’s easy to stand on the sidelines and say you could have done better.

                Certainly seems to be a lot of that lately…

              • Roar Rookie

                September 7th 2017 @ 1:42pm
                piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 1:42pm | ! Report

                Doesn’t there?

              • Roar Guru

                September 7th 2017 @ 1:57pm
                Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 1:57pm | ! Report

                But not me hey Piru?

                I’m such a cynic I think everything is doomed.

              • Roar Rookie

                September 7th 2017 @ 5:33pm
                piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 5:33pm | ! Report

                You’re just infuriating methodical – not an ‘I coulda done better’er

            • Roar Guru

              September 7th 2017 @ 12:30pm
              Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 12:30pm | ! Report

              So we can’t have a rational discussion about the merits of it?

              • Roar Guru

                September 8th 2017 @ 1:31pm
                sheek said | September 8th 2017 @ 1:31pm | ! Report

                TWAS,

                Your idea of rational discussion is to shoot down everyone else’s argument.

                I don’t think I’ve read you stick your neck out with a proposal of your own.

                Much easier to attack everyone’s else’s posts that come up with something of your own.

                You’re a fraud.

              • September 8th 2017 @ 7:16pm
                rebel said | September 8th 2017 @ 7:16pm | ! Report

                Sheek lay off him, he’s defending rational discussion like:
                Mickey Mouse Super Rugby light
                Stupid waste of time
                and
                Desperadoes embarassing themselves
                I’d rather be irrational and support those trying to keep rugby relevant in their state.

              • Roar Guru

                September 11th 2017 @ 9:24am
                Train Without A Station said | September 11th 2017 @ 9:24am | ! Report

                When there argument ignores the facts then yes.

                Why would I have a proposal of my own?

                I never claim that I know better than the people doing the job.

                Running the ARU seems easy from behind a keyboard…

              • September 9th 2017 @ 7:10am
                Drongo said | September 9th 2017 @ 7:10am | ! Report

                All of those comments are rational and accurate. But TWAS isn’t defending what I or others post, he is, as usual, making his own very sensible and fact based argument. Many on here just can’t handle that and lash out at him in desperation.

              • September 9th 2017 @ 7:32am
                concerned supporter said | September 9th 2017 @ 7:32am | ! Report

                Drongo,
                TWAS is the biggest trash talker on the Roar. You must be his apprentice.

          • September 7th 2017 @ 6:10pm
            In brief said | September 7th 2017 @ 6:10pm | ! Report

            That’s factually incorrect. The travel remains an issue but the time zones would be aligned

    • September 7th 2017 @ 7:44am
      waxhead said | September 7th 2017 @ 7:44am | ! Report

      Rhys
      I’ll throw another shot of reality into your fantasy and those other Force fans.
      Twiggy’s alleged Asia-Pacific alt comp will never come to pass and he knows it.
      This guy is telling you desperate Force fans silly lies and you’re too naive to see it.

      His motive is no more than to enhance his public standing in WA.
      For many reasons the alleged Twiggy concept has obviously got no legs.
      He’s just taking you guys along for another one of his ego trips.

      • September 7th 2017 @ 8:01am
        Bamboo said | September 7th 2017 @ 8:01am | ! Report

        100%. In Twiggy there is hope for some, not common sense.

      • September 7th 2017 @ 8:28am
        Rhys Bosley said | September 7th 2017 @ 8:28am | ! Report

        Oh well Waxhead, if you don’t think ithe comp is going to happen, then you don’t need to continue to worry about commenting about it do you.

      • September 7th 2017 @ 9:11am
        Jules said | September 7th 2017 @ 9:11am | ! Report

        So negative!! Why not wait and see! Give it a chance. Twiggy didn’t get where he is without a bit of intelligence. He’s doing it because he like all the sea of blue fans love their rugby which has just been ripped away from us! I say bring it on and you can keep my own the Force money if that helps. If you are not interested don’t watch.. Stick with super rugby

      • September 7th 2017 @ 10:18am
        RahRah said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:18am | ! Report

        And here he goes again, Waxhead and his bile reserved for his unsubstantiated slander of Forrest. You really need to get a life mate, perhaps trying to achieve something with your own pathetic life rather than denegrate a person who had nothing to prove to you or anyone might be a good start.

        • Roar Guru

          September 7th 2017 @ 10:23am
          Train Without A Station said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:23am | ! Report

          That’s a pretty hypocritical statement given you are willing to make much more serious, unsubstantiated slanderous comments of other people.

          • September 7th 2017 @ 10:52am
            RahRah said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:52am | ! Report

            You mean my criticism directed at you ??

          • September 8th 2017 @ 9:12am
            Bakkies said | September 8th 2017 @ 9:12am | ! Report

            Your mate de Clyne is not a person.

      • September 7th 2017 @ 10:39am
        Gazza said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:39am | ! Report

        Im sure Twiggy sleeps just fine at night, even with the keyboard warriors filling their dacks with worry that he will potentially usurp their precious self interests, on a pile of cash worth $6.8 billion.

      • September 7th 2017 @ 10:55am
        Perthstayer said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:55am | ! Report

        Waxhead, that is absolute east coast cobblers.

        Do you guys know him personally or something?

        Since stepping down as CEO of Fortescue sure he is in the papers, but he is one of the richest people in Australia. Gina Reinhart hates the spotlight yet she’s almost in the news more than he is.

        Over 10+ years he has been committed to improving the lot of indigenous communities in the north of Western Australia. He didn’t do this to win a popularity contest and has always stuck to his guns.

        Mainly he’s in the news for his impressive philanthropic work.

        He talks big because he plays big, and that’s teh way he knows.

        He’s also in the news when he gets paid millions of $’s as dividends, but so are his shareholders getting rewarded.

        Wake up everyone over East, this guy has proven to be a man of his word.

        • Roar Rookie

          September 7th 2017 @ 11:24am
          piru said | September 7th 2017 @ 11:24am | ! Report

          The rabid negativity is becoming telling.

          What are you guys afraid of?

          You’ve still got your Super teams, enjoy.

    • September 7th 2017 @ 8:02am
      Canetragic said | September 7th 2017 @ 8:02am | ! Report

      “If there was ever a time when we needed something new to break the patterns of tribalism, groupthink and patronage that have dragged Australian elite rugby administration from being top of the world only 15 years ago to the current doldrums, it is now.”

      Bravo. Well said

    • Roar Guru

      September 7th 2017 @ 9:27am
      Machooka said | September 7th 2017 @ 9:27am | ! Report

      Nice one Rhys… well written and interesting read.

      I’d just like to make suggestion along the lines that’s it fair for everyone to be going the ARU for their deplorable behaviour regards this Force thingy… but do we, as genuine Aussie rugby supporters, need to also take this angst and frustration out on our Wallaby?

      Can we not seperate the two? Like why sick a dog up the workers when it’s clearly the boss’s fault!?!

      • September 7th 2017 @ 10:15am
        AndyS said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:15am | ! Report

        How? The only reason the ARU exists is to manage the Wallabies and the money they generate. One can’t be separated from the other…the Wallabies are what enable the ARU to control the game. Otherwise the game would be independently run in each state by state bodies, nothing more (and wouldn’t that be a “God help us” moment for a lot of people!).

        • Roar Guru

          September 7th 2017 @ 10:25am
          Machooka said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:25am | ! Report

          Bugger AndyS… as I didn’t know that. Thanks.

          I already thought the game was run by the state bodies, or at least it appears that way 😉

      • September 7th 2017 @ 10:13pm
        Rhys Bosley said | September 7th 2017 @ 10:13pm | ! Report

        “Punishing the Wallabies” presoposes that they have an automatic call on fan’s wallets Chook. They don’t, if we don’t want to pay to watch them because of what has happened, then that is bad luck.

        Anyway, if they had have really cared about the Force they could have had a player strike and made this a lot more difficult for the ARU, so Force supporters owe them no favours. And it isn’t like they don’t have lucrative options overseas if things went pear shaped for the ARU. They would hardly suffer.

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