Scotland slaughter woeful Wallabies 53-24


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    The Wallabies have ended their spring tour in humiliating fashion, slumping to their biggest-ever loss to Scotland at Murrayfield.

    The Scots, rejuvenated under coach Gregor Townsend, ran in eight tries in a 53-24 walkover to chalk up a second successive win over Michael Cheika’s side following their victory in Sydney in June.

    Impressive as the Scots were, their task was made easier thanks to a brain snap from Sekope Kepu that saw him red-carded two minutes before halftime.

    With his side leading 12-10 thanks to two quickfire Tevita Kuradrani tries, Kepu was sent from the field after he caught Hamish Watson with a shoulder charge to the head.

    French referee Pascal Gauzere immediately referred the incident to television match official Graham Hughes who recommended that a red card be shown.

    Kepu becomes only the fifth Wallabies player to be sent from the the field and the first since Kuridrani was dismissed for a lifting tackle against Ireland in 2013.

    Scotland immediately made their numerical advantage tell when halfback Ali Price wrong-footed Bernard Foley and darted over from close range with Finn Russell adding the extras to give his side a 17-12 lead at the break.

    Kurtley Beale restored Australia’s lead after the restart with an excellent dummy that fooled the Scots’ defence allowing him to crash over.

    However, four tries in a dazzling 15-minute spell sent the home crowd into a frenzy as Scotland, led by fill-in fullback Sean Maitland, a late replacement for Stuart Hogg who was injured in the warm-up.

    Maitland grabbed the first after rampaging down the left flank with Jonny Gray and lock Huw Jones crossing before winger Byron McGuigan added to his first-half opener to leave the Wallabies shellshocked.

    Retiring former skipper Stephen Moore was given a warm reception from the Murrayfield crowd when he exited the field for the last time just before the hour mark before Lopeti Timani added some respectability to the score with a close-range five-pointer that was converted by Foley.

    But the misery continued for Cheika, whose side finished with 13 men after Kurtley Beale was sin-binned, with skipper John Barclay and Stuart McInally going over to bring up the half-century for Scotland.

    The Scots’ previous biggest win against Australia was 24-15 in 1981.

    © AAP 2018

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    The Crowd Says (136)

    • November 26th 2017 @ 9:22am
      Rugbyfan said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:22am | ! Report

      Time for a new coach and new attitude for the Wallabies.
      The culture being developed by Cheika is truly ugly

      • November 26th 2017 @ 9:37am
        P2R2 said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:37am | ! Report

        yep new coach….and more Australian born players please…..starting to look like ENG….imports left and right

        • November 26th 2017 @ 3:23pm
          Peter said | November 26th 2017 @ 3:23pm | ! Report

          Absolutely! Can’t have people who are qualified to play for Australia actually playing for Australia!

        • November 26th 2017 @ 7:07pm
          FunBus said | November 26th 2017 @ 7:07pm | ! Report

          I know this is a difficult day, but do you REALLY want to go through the respective Aussie and England squads’ backstories regarding ‘poaching’ and time spent in respective countries etc?

      • November 26th 2017 @ 9:54am
        mitch said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:54am | ! Report

        Not sure its ugly but it certainly isnt a winning culture. Needs to go

      • November 26th 2017 @ 10:12am
        PiratesRugby said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:12am | ! Report

        Cheika has failed. For him to remain is just selfish.

      • November 26th 2017 @ 10:28am
        Charlie Turner said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:28am | ! Report

        I felt for Cheika this morning. I watched the replay of the press conference and he was shell shocked. There’s no doubt he’s 100% invested in his role but it shouldn’t take a record drubbing to display some grace. Cheika and his Wallabies will be boarding QF-2 with their tails between their legs.

        • Roar Guru

          November 27th 2017 @ 6:14am
          stillmissit said | November 27th 2017 @ 6:14am | ! Report

          Charlie where did you see the press conference?

          • November 28th 2017 @ 8:09am
            Bakkies said | November 28th 2017 @ 8:09am | ! Report

            It’s up on YouTube. Don’t know about upset certainly got a physics and head injury lesson

    • November 26th 2017 @ 9:26am
      Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:26am | ! Report

      Scotland played well and deserved the win. They came in with the perfect tactics and targeted us with extremely well placed and contestable high balls, and constantly found overlaps when our defence got narrow.

      Finn Russell is a truly world class playmaker and really should have been on the Lions tour. He was constantly putting other players through gaps, throwing cut out balls to unmarked defenders and threatening the line himself. He also had a quality kicking game.

      Stephen Moore was a great player for Australia and will be remembered fondly, and it is a shame he had to go out that way. That said, his selection in the starting 15 smacked of arrogance before the match, and I really hope that the team did not go into the match expecting to beat Scotland easily. Regardless, well done to Scotland.

      • November 26th 2017 @ 9:38am
        Ken Catchpole's Other Leg said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:38am | ! Report

        Yes Fionn, Moore shoulda been less this year.
        Pretty obvious that selections are based on things outside of ability and form. A major flaw in WB selection policy that has been obvious since Foley ‘won’ the arm wrestle for the 10 jersey in ’15 and ’16.

      • Roar Rookie

        November 26th 2017 @ 9:40am
        David Gwilliam said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:40am | ! Report

        A really well drilled side, led and coached well. Well played Scotland.

        We need to stop trying to win games with “Trick’s”. Pick the best players in their positions, play them in position, and coach them as well as you can.

        It really is as simple as that. You can out smart the rest of the world with bizarre selections and braveheart speeches.

        • Roar Guru

          November 26th 2017 @ 10:23am
          PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:23am | ! Report

          Scotland are very very good, I expect them to really challenge England and Ireland in the 6N’s.

          Wales and France are going to have a hard time.

          • Roar Rookie

            November 26th 2017 @ 11:09am
            Die hard said | November 26th 2017 @ 11:09am | ! Report

            Wales were very impressive against the All Blacks last night I thought Peter. It is going to be even more watchable than last year.

          • Roar Rookie

            November 26th 2017 @ 4:13pm
            Kirky said | November 26th 2017 @ 4:13pm | ! Report

            PeterK!, The write ups invariably mention that the Wallabies were humiliated by getting thrashed by Scotland, ~I for one would like to know why it’d be humiliating for the Aussies’ to get beaten by Scotland, for one thing they’re a far better side than the Aussies, ~ Scotland are a very, very, good side right now and are a better Team than the Poms, ~ because if they played like they have in their last two games, they’d do the Poms!

            • November 26th 2017 @ 4:17pm
              Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 4:17pm | ! Report

              It isn’t humiliating to lose to Scotland.

              It is humiliating to concede 50+ points in that way.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 6:15pm
                Rebellion said | November 26th 2017 @ 6:15pm | ! Report

                It really would be humiliating if you had to walk in Kirky’s shoes for a day i’d Imagine

        • Roar Guru

          November 27th 2017 @ 6:25am
          stillmissit said | November 27th 2017 @ 6:25am | ! Report

          Yes they played very well and I thought the ref was excellent, clear decisions and seemed not to miss a lot.

          Following this season up north I am pretty sure it will be a NH team to take out the world cup. Assuming they continue to improve.

          I feel for Moore but not those WB’s who did not turn up for this game. Cheika’s selection issues and lack of structure have arrived like vultures to feed on his carcass.

          Hooper must go next year and Pocock in at 7, we cannot expect to win a lot with no backrow capable of winning ball. Apologies to McMahon who did turn up. I suspect that Kepu’s brain snap was largely to do with the lack of players in the BD and Scotland getting TO ball easily.

      • November 26th 2017 @ 9:57am
        Rusty743 said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:57am | ! Report

        Watching Finn Russell and the other Scottish backs use the ball to beat the man was fantastic. I am not sure what the answer is however, I am always left wondering why Foley seems to be reluctant to be first receiver. Especially in the second half when we needed direction? I would imagine the coach and the team would feel a lot safer with the ball in the 10’s hand.

        • November 26th 2017 @ 10:42am
          enoughisenough said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:42am | ! Report

          Given that Foleys passing is poor, (it for example cost the Wallabies Scotlands first try), its probably a good thing that he absents himself from first receiver so much. Most of his time is spent in the backfield looking to inject himself as a support runner off the shoulder of another player, but he does very little else that is constructive. How people can still parrot the line that Foley is the best we have, after so many woeful performances, is difficult to understand.

          • November 26th 2017 @ 1:28pm
            Ruckin Oaf said | November 26th 2017 @ 1:28pm | ! Report

            Be interesting to see what kind of pairing Lance and Genia make for the Rebels next year.

            • November 26th 2017 @ 2:33pm
              Rusty743 said | November 26th 2017 @ 2:33pm | ! Report

              Yes, i was thinking the same thing…fingers crossed.

          • November 28th 2017 @ 8:12am
            Bakkies said | November 28th 2017 @ 8:12am | ! Report

            It might have to do with his head injuries as copping a few knocks there does affect your confidence. We saw what happened to Berrick Barnes at the Tahs. It’s hard enough when you play in a side that loses heavily.

      • Roar Guru

        November 26th 2017 @ 10:22am
        PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:22am | ! Report

        Fionn – Totally agree.

        First of all I want to say the referee was very very good. Probably the most consistent and accurate one I have seen this year.

        This NH tour showed how much Folau is missed in terms of attacking balance, and defusing the highball.

        This game and the English game highlight how predictable and easy to to outcoach the wallabies are. They are so one dimensional, do not change their tactics, and also do not adapt to how the opposition are playing.

        Scotland’s coach is very very good, great tactics against aust and nz.

        The limitation of a lack of creative 10 is really shown up. Additionally not having a replacement 10 if Foley is in poor form, no matter what he stays on the field. This wasn’t a bad game from him in that he made one try happen with good support play and running and chipping for himself. He did also do a very good grubber for TK to score. What is needed though is a 10 that uses the backline outside him, that makes them play better.

        The defensive pattern is terrible once again.

        The team shows the imbalance at the breakdown. Neither McMahon or Hooper were effective at the breakdown. McMahon ran good metres but that was all he did and a backrower needs to do more. Hooper did even less.

        I would love to see Cheika step down and White appointed for 2 years. Then White gets it again or Wessels if he has performed.
        The ARU can’t afford to payout Cheika’s contract so he needs to step down.

        • November 26th 2017 @ 10:40am
          Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:40am | ! Report

          Yeah, I must admit that even though I knew Folau was important, him taking the Spring Tour off really demonstrated he was even more important than I realised. If Pocock is the key to our forwards then Folau is key to our backs.

          The biggest issue I see is, as you say: ‘This game and the English game highlight how predictable and easy to to outcoach the wallabies are. They are so one dimensional, do not change their tactics, and also do not adapt to how the opposition are playing.’

          This is such a worry as even if we go into the RWC with an effective new tactic (like the Pooper) it will be figured out by the later rounds, and we will have no plan B.

          I think that this is the last chance for Cheika to step down. If he doesn’t step down after this then he never will. I will be interested to see where it goes. Even though Jake White is currently contracted, that has never been a big problem for him in the past. I think it could be a problem for guys like Hooper, Beale and Foley though, as I think White prefers a team of unspectacular grinders who perform their core roles before doing anything flashy: Pocock, Hunt/Hodge/Banks and Lealiifano/Lance seem to be more in the White mould in my opinion.

          • Roar Guru

            November 26th 2017 @ 12:16pm
            PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:16pm | ! Report

            As I posted down below I believe the new CEO will hold the answer to whether Cheika stays or not.

            If White did get the job I see QC being the 10 and Foley bench, maybe Beale bench instead of Foley.
            Pocock 7 and Hooper good impact player on the bench (IF he plays a 6:2 bench though).

            Folau I think would be retained at fb at least initially by White. He might move him to the wing right way. Banks would replace DHP. Hodge and Koroibete retained.

            The biggest question mark would be who he played at 12.

            • November 26th 2017 @ 12:33pm
              Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:33pm | ! Report

              Peter, I think White likes the players he knows and trusts.

              I read an interview recently on the 10 year anniversary of the RWC and he commented on the fact that he ignored the criticisms of not selecting week to week and instead trusted the guys that he knew were good to get continuity.

              I know that is similar to what Cheika seems to do, but the difference is that White picked guys out of relative obscurity that had talent and coached them into better players. He did it at the Boks and the Brumbies. Whereas Cheika just trusts the guys he likes even when their form is awful.

              In the spectrum of picking on form to picking based on loyalty Link is most on the form side and Cheika most on loyalty, with White in the middle.

              I think that we would see QC or Lealiifano at 10, and if QC was at 10 then it would be Lealiifano at 12. White really, really rates kicking highly, both in terms of tactical kicking and off the tee, so we would see either Lance or Lealiifano somewhere in the 15.

              I wouldn’t be surprised if eventually we saw Hooper dropped out of the 23. Pocock would almost certainly be 7, and guys like Timu, Naisarani, Valetini, Higgers, RHP, Timanu and Dempsey would be fighting for the reserve back-row spot. I cannot see him ever compromising the line out to play two 7s.

              I think the outside backs would feature both Banks and Folau in the starting 15.

              This is all conjecture of course.

              • Roar Guru

                November 26th 2017 @ 12:42pm
                PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:42pm | ! Report

                I forgot about CLL.

                IMO White would have CLL as the 10 and not QC. QC or Lance the bench 10.

                Folau being so good under he highball and an asset chasing high kicks and restarts mean he would retain him for sure. He would be forgiven not being a very good kicker, he would be asked to kick more though which he can do.

                White likes no nonsense big hard forwards. I expect Hooper would be out as well.
                Timani would get a new lease of life.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 1:21pm
                Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 1:21pm | ! Report

                10-12 axis of Quade – Lealiifano, Lance – Lealiifano, Lealiifano – Paia’aua/Hunt/Hodge would all be very possible in my opinion.

                White also seems to want to select best 23 internationally for the Boks, so I imagine it would be the same for the Wallabies. I think that would mean he would try and loosen foreign selection rules – say 8 years and 30 caps or 8 years in Aus and wherever number of caps. If he could do so I think he would go for Lealiifano and Toomua at 10 and 12.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 12:57pm
                Charlie Turner said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:57pm | ! Report

                Fionn, White made two critical decisions, convincing big Os to get off his couch and Jones to assist him in the RWC. Maybe Rassie Erasmus deserves some credit for Os too.

              • November 28th 2017 @ 8:19am
                Bakkies said | November 28th 2017 @ 8:19am | ! Report

                As a former schools and under age coach White understands pathways. It’s not just the role of being the head coach of the senior team. He turned around the ACT Rugby player development structures which are turning around now and Gandalf is pushing further changes with the reintroduction of the Academy which the other states bar the Force don’t have. Players from the ACT Schools are in next year’s Academy in take which has kept the future in the game not in League or NZ.

            • November 27th 2017 @ 7:51pm
              Bakkies said | November 27th 2017 @ 7:51pm | ! Report

              Don’t forget that White had coached these players at under 21s level in 2002 and they were in their prime in 2007. Sure Straeuli had selected players like Burger in 2003 they didn’t really get a chance to shine till the following year.

        • November 26th 2017 @ 10:57am
          soapit said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:57am | ! Report

          yes thought it was a shame in a way that the game blew out and the ref didnt get much focus after having a good game. really enjoyed that offside line particularly.

        • Roar Rookie

          November 26th 2017 @ 11:13am
          Die hard said | November 26th 2017 @ 11:13am | ! Report

          Typical post. Insightful

          I wonder how the Wallabies would go with a rock at seven like Cane especially last night.

          How the game has changed but how much it remains the same.

        • November 26th 2017 @ 3:21pm
          Garry said | November 26th 2017 @ 3:21pm | ! Report

          Somewhere… we speak, Link is cracking a cold beer, with a grin peaking out from the corner of his mouth. He’s just worked out the last chapter in his book. All that remains is who to write the prolog. It would be nice if you offered Michael.

          Or maybe you KB?

          Or perhaps you could Michael Hooper. It’s a long flight home. Plenty of time to collect your thoughts?

          Maybe you Bill Pulver? It would be easily your best contribution to Aus rugby yet.

        • Roar Rookie

          November 26th 2017 @ 4:19pm
          Kirky said | November 26th 2017 @ 4:19pm | ! Report

          Wessels won’t budge from the Melbourne Force for a while and I doubt he’s be qualified enough to bean International Coach anyway, but he’s very likely to jump back across to Perth if a decent Competition gets up and running, he is after all a South African Perth boy!

        • November 26th 2017 @ 7:07pm
          Uncle Eric said | November 26th 2017 @ 7:07pm | ! Report

          Let’s ‘Go Fund Me’ to pay Cheika out. Surely that’s a worthwhile cause and might result in a lot less heartbreak amongst WB supporters.

          • November 27th 2017 @ 12:22am
            paleocortex said | November 27th 2017 @ 12:22am | ! Report

            “Go Fund Me”
            I’ll start with $100… to see the clown gone. I’ll chip in an extra $50 to get rid of “The Iceman” from 10

        • Roar Guru

          November 27th 2017 @ 8:19am
          stillmissit said | November 27th 2017 @ 8:19am | ! Report

          Pete, surely we can do better than Jake White? We know what he brings and he doesn’t seem to have changed in the last 10 years.

          First and foremost we need players who want to play to their absolute best everytime they pull on a Wallaby shirt.

          A coach who has the smarts and is capable of surrounding themselves with the best.

          Then we need to teach the players how to pass, catch and offload at speed and under pressure. Then it is heart and structure in the D. Then a consistent and 1st class 5/8 and halfback (Genia is great but who follows him?).

          The backrow must be capable of holding their own and supported by the rest at the BD.

          In fact we need to review the whole bloody thing the same as McQueen did in the late 90s

    • November 26th 2017 @ 9:29am
      Cantab said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:29am | ! Report

      Couldn’t believe how easily the Scotland backs kept on breaking the Australian line (Against 14 & 15 players). Not the grinding win we’re accustomed to seeing Scotland produce.

      Will be interesting to see how they go in the 6 nations given their favourable draw.

      • Roar Rookie

        November 26th 2017 @ 4:22pm
        Kirky said | November 26th 2017 @ 4:22pm | ! Report

        Cantab, they were using the ”rush defence” and infringing like hell all game as the Centre and wings and others were offside through the whole game, Barnes took no notice of it at all, he never glanced ‘over there once, they just got away with it!

        • November 26th 2017 @ 7:10pm
          Uncle Eric said | November 26th 2017 @ 7:10pm | ! Report

          Don’t forget the harsh dismissal of Kepu, Kirky.

        • November 26th 2017 @ 7:27pm
          FunBus said | November 26th 2017 @ 7:27pm | ! Report

          Once again, Kirky, you’re spot on. Bloody Barnes and his ability to transport from Edinburgh to Cardiff and ruin two games in 3 hours is a menace.

          Beam me up Scotty!

    • November 26th 2017 @ 9:31am
      Bamboo said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:31am | ! Report

      Question for Australians (I’m not one):

      July 2013 was when McKenzie was chosen over Jake White as the Wallabies coach. Are you happy with the path that has been taken since then by the Wallabies, or do you think the Wallabies would be in a better position today after having Jake White at the helm for 4 years?

      • November 26th 2017 @ 9:35am
        Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:35am | ! Report

        I think we’d be in a better position than we currently are if McKenzie had been coach for the last four years.

        I also think we would be in a better position than we currently are if White had been the coach for the last four years also.

        • November 26th 2017 @ 9:38am
          P2R2 said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:38am | ! Report

          BIG ASSUMPTIONS on both counts….why do you think so?

          • November 26th 2017 @ 9:51am
            Bamboo said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:51am | ! Report

            I think thats their prediction, not their assumption.

          • November 26th 2017 @ 9:51am
            Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:51am | ! Report

            Because they’re better coaches than Cheika.

            • November 26th 2017 @ 9:57am
              Train Without A Station said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:57am | ! Report

              The fact is that in his short tenure, McKenzie seemed to be able to get the team to navigate through these bogie matches much better.

              Cheika is peaks and troughs. In the same year he’s managed to coach the team to beat the All Blacks, but lose to Scotland home and away.

            • November 26th 2017 @ 10:06am
              London Waratah said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:06am | ! Report

              I don’t think so. I think Cheika has been great during RWC year…amazing. Then not great…due to lack of ‘Rugby ownership in Australia’…right through the system.

              McKenzie struggled massively. So did White at The Brumbies. We’d be having the same discussion either ways.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 10:11am
                Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:11am | ! Report

                Fake news, London Waratah.

                Jake White resurrected the Brumbies in two years, from the pathetic rabble that was the 2011 Brumbies to a team that would have won the 2013 SR title if it weren’t for an amazing covering tackle by Cruden in the final in New Zealand. He also won a world cup.

                McKenzie had a rough start against the best team in history (the 2011-15 All Blacks) and against the best Springboks team since 09. After that rough first RC he dominated and we beat every other team we played other than England at Twickenham and one match against Argentina where Foley had a poor day off the tee (not his fault exactly, the crowd were shining lasers in his eyes from what I remember).

              • November 26th 2017 @ 10:11am
                Bakkies said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:11am | ! Report

                White took the Brumbies to the Final with a squad that lacked ‘stars.’

              • November 26th 2017 @ 10:18am
                Train Without A Station said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:18am | ! Report

                How did McKenzie struggle massively?

                His record looks worse on paper because 6 of 22 tests were against the All Blacks due to the fact that he started prior to the Rugby Championship, and finished after the 3rd Bledisloe, having only 1 June test series and 1 EOYT.

                Of the remaining 16 tests he did well, the Wallabies winning 11 of them.

                A solitary loss to Argentina in Argentina was the only loss to a team other than SA, NZ or England. Not a single game was played against a minnow nation to boost figures.

              • Roar Guru

                November 26th 2017 @ 10:48am
                Mark Richmond said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:48am | ! Report

                Jake White also got the Brumbies to beat The British and Irish Lions……

          • November 26th 2017 @ 10:12am
            Bib said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:12am | ! Report

            Cheika is still playing 2014

        • Roar Guru

          November 26th 2017 @ 10:27am
          PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:27am | ! Report

          Agree about White.

          Not sure about McKenzie.
          He is a better coach, however he resigned because he lost the dressing room. If the players didn’t / couldn’t work with him and there wasn’t depth to sack most of the senior players I doubt he would have performed well enough in 2015 to have been kept on past the rwc.

          • November 26th 2017 @ 10:35am
            Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:35am | ! Report

            Things could have been different with McKenzie if he had been given the full support of the ARU, but it would have required him to have full reign to drop all of those players who undermined him

            There is a narrative that there was a popular revolution amongst the players against McKenzie, with all fo them united against him. I don’t think that narrative is completely true. In reality it was fairly split. The majority of Brumbies and Reds were supportive of Link (guys like Lealiifano and Tomane and Quade did so publicly, but most were far from stars) while had had lost the support of many Waratahs and a few others.

            For Link to have continued he would have had had to have been pretty ruthless in permanently dropping a lot of those guys who undermined him.

            Anyway, it’s all a matter of ‘what if’ now. No going back.

          • November 26th 2017 @ 10:35am
            Train Without A Station said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:35am | ! Report

            I’m during having the close to additional 10 experienced players that were available in 2015 that weren’t in 2014 would have helped.

            • Roar Guru

              November 26th 2017 @ 11:19am
              PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 11:19am | ! Report

              FIONN / TWAS – If McKenzie stayed on and regardless of results in 2015 (if he was allowed to sack a lot of senior players who didn’t supoort him) I believe the wallabies would have performed worse in 2015 but better in 2016 and 2017 and would be in a better position now.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 12:53pm
                Train Without A Station said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:53pm | ! Report

                Agreed on both. McKenzie is better at putting a long term plan in place.

                Cheika is better at an immediate turn around maximising the current squad – but lacks ability to maintain I over the long term.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 1:18pm
                Hello said | November 26th 2017 @ 1:18pm | ! Report

                I agree with that peterk butit is all in the past the most important step we can tae is the next one not the last one

        • Roar Rookie

          November 26th 2017 @ 4:29pm
          Kirky said | November 26th 2017 @ 4:29pm | ! Report

          Fionn! A top Kiwi Coach is the way to go, one that won’t stand any crap, ~ Kiwi Coaches as you’d know are pretty much the epitome of top Coaching, it’s proven, they’re spread right throughout the International rugby scene for obvious reasons, ~ the problem with that is the Aussies won’t d it for Kiwi Coaches, it’s been tried a couple of times and both times they fell over through the simple fact they do not like taking it from a Kiwi, and the Kiwis’ know that so I doubt very much if any would take it on in Aussie’ they know how the others were treated!

          • Roar Rookie

            November 26th 2017 @ 10:32pm
            Shane D said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:32pm | ! Report

            Problem with that is what top Kiwi coach is available & willing to take on the job? Coaching the Wallabies would almost certainly rule out that coach from getting the AB job in the future.

          • November 27th 2017 @ 8:23pm
            Raewyn Small said | November 27th 2017 @ 8:23pm | ! Report

            Hear hear Kirky.. I had big faith in Deans until the way he was treated by the boys! Shame really, but I agree with you wholeheartedly.

      • November 26th 2017 @ 9:37am
        Bib said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:37am | ! Report

        The select few Waratah players are happy. They’re position in the team is assured regardless of performance. There is no accountability for the untouchables. They get those fat ARU top up contracts.

        The majority of Waratah fans at the time were happy as their man Cheika got made coach.

        the majority of other fans were scathing of the Waratah coupé that displaced Mackenzie.

        • November 26th 2017 @ 9:52am
          Ken Catchpole's Other Leg said | November 26th 2017 @ 9:52am | ! Report

          Bib, was that coupe a 2 door or a hatchback?

        • November 26th 2017 @ 10:10am
          London Waratah said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:10am | ! Report

          Yes…and you the Reds guy was happy that McKenzie (That Waratah man who coached Reds to a title…who you loved), got the Wallaby job with all those title-winning Reds players in the Wallabies…before they too started losing.

          So…You were happy with your lot getting in on the back of a NSW coach but not happy with another NSW coach getting in on the back of a Tah Super Title?


          • November 26th 2017 @ 10:12am
            Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:12am | ! Report

            The Brumbies made up the majority of the Wallabies in 2013….

            In 2014 it was a mixture of Brumbies and Waratahs…

            You know, because he selected his team based on performance rather than favourites? He even dropped his captain Genia.

          • November 26th 2017 @ 10:19am
            Bib said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:19am | ! Report

            He dropped Horwill. His super rugby winning captain because he wasn’t good enough.

            He didn’t play Quade at the start.

            • November 26th 2017 @ 10:22am
              Train Without A Station said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:22am | ! Report

              Dropped Genia.

              Consistently preferred Hooper over Gill.

              Fainga’a at hooker was only used due to injuries to TPN, Charles and Siliva Siliva.

              Was slow to promote Greg Holmes.

              Kuridrani got his chance under McKenzie.

              If anything McKenzie was guilty of the opposite.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 10:36am
                Fionn said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:36am | ! Report

                McKenzie’s 2013 team were overwhelmingly Brumbies.

                You’re right, Link was arguably guilty of not showing enough loyalty to the guys he coached at the Reds. That said, everyone knew they were a part of a meritocracy, and that they had to perform in order to earn and, more importantly, maintain their spot.

          • November 26th 2017 @ 10:20am
            Train Without A Station said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:20am | ! Report

            Actually McKenzie dropped key Reds at times.

            He stripped Horwill of the captaincy and benched Genia.

            He tried Toomua before Cooper.

            The only Reds player that benefit was Chris Feaui-Sautia who was punter on after injuries.

            There was no Robertson’s, Hanigans and Horne’s shoe horned in over better performing players.

            • Roar Guru

              November 26th 2017 @ 10:35am
              PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:35am | ! Report

              McKenzie’s was very good at selection, at seeing quickly if he made a mistake and changing selections. He also had different plans for different opponents, a horses for courses selection. This whilst giving good results got pampered entitled players offside because they didn’t have a certainty in selection, which they saw as a lack of loyalty.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 11:05am
                soapit said | November 26th 2017 @ 11:05am | ! Report

                and now here we are with the wallaby culture that players describe as “the best environment I’ve been a part of in the time I’ve been in a Wallaby group”

              • November 26th 2017 @ 1:49pm
                Ruckin Oaf said | November 26th 2017 @ 1:49pm | ! Report

                Hey Soapit,

                And maybe that’s because
                a) it’s the best culture or
                b) the players in question want to remain as players or
                c) the players opinion is not accurate — my kids would tell you that ice–cream is the best dinner but that don’t make it so.

                Who really knows.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 2:06pm
                soapit said | November 26th 2017 @ 2:06pm | ! Report

                occams razor ro

                simply i think the player said what he was genuinely feeling

              • November 26th 2017 @ 2:58pm
                Train Without A Station said | November 26th 2017 @ 2:58pm | ! Report

                Remember AAC regaling the public to tales of how the 1-3 2014 EOYT was his most enjoyable Wallaby tour in years?

                It’s great the players are happy with the environment which has yielded the worst 2 year period of results in Wallaby history…

        • Roar Guru

          November 26th 2017 @ 10:30am
          PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:30am | ! Report

          Bib – When McKenzie quit I am sure most fans from all frqanchises were happy Cheika got the job.

          There was no coup against Mckenzie and certainly none led by the tahs. He quit, no one pushed him, or asked for his resignation. He may have lacked support but that is a different issue.

          • November 26th 2017 @ 10:48am
            bigbaz said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:48am | ! Report

            Wow, you really have no idea

            • Roar Guru

              November 26th 2017 @ 11:21am
              PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 11:21am | ! Report

              no coup led by the waratah organsiation.

              If you mean a lot of the players that he lost their support were tahs players then that is correct.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 12:08pm
                Wallace footrot said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:08pm | ! Report

                The unofficial press conference/ remarks at brisbane airport by Hooper was the start of a much larger divide in the wallaby camp that still exists today. That should not have happened. There is an absolute cultural mess within the wallaby and ARU setup right now. Cheika does have too much power, anyway you look at it. His remarks, his perceived favourites, the ildiscipline within the team, the selections, the lack of humility and the ability on field to be able to change tactics shows me our current leaders are lacking in maturity. There does need to be new leadership at the top to make changes throughout this bumbling train wreck. I think we have missed the chance but Pocock would have been an incredible Captain. One of the best on and off field leaders to have worn the gold jersey.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 12:23pm
                Charlie Turner said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:23pm | ! Report

                Pocock’s strong political beliefs could prove polarising amongst elements of the team. I believe Coleman would be a better choice. The way Horwills been playing for Harlequins I’d bring him home in to partner/mentor Coleman for a couple of games in June next year.

              • Roar Guru

                November 26th 2017 @ 12:25pm
                PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:25pm | ! Report

                I would love for Pocock to be captain and Coleman VC.

                If not Pocock then TPN captain until 2019.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 2:29pm
                Harry said | November 26th 2017 @ 2:29pm | ! Report

                Great suggestion Charlie Turner (bring Horwill back for the June tests). Will never happen under Cheika alas. And soon to be ARU CEO Phil Kearns will let the Tah gang in control of the Wallabies continue to run unchecked.

              • November 27th 2017 @ 8:35pm
                Raewyn Small said | November 27th 2017 @ 8:35pm | ! Report

                He’s not, is he? Oh woe is me!

              • November 26th 2017 @ 3:24pm
                Cuw said | November 26th 2017 @ 3:24pm | ! Report

                James Horwill has been fantastic as Quins captain.

                although his team has been beaten by a few of the top teams ( Bath was latest ) , he has been leading them like a champ

                also his game has been much better allround. Its a pity peeps did not like his captaincy style in auzzy.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 8:47pm
                David said | November 26th 2017 @ 8:47pm | ! Report

                Coming from a Quins fan, Horwill has been a reliable performer for us ever since we signed him, and although results haven’t been consistent for us in the last few years he certainly has, and agree he’s been a good captain this season. Hope he finishes his career with us, and I firmly believe that if he was selected in the wallabies squad it could only be a good thing for Australia. He’s a much better player than his form suggested 3-4 years ago.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 7:59pm
                riddler said | November 26th 2017 @ 7:59pm | ! Report

                no thanks charlie.. horwill can stay at quins..

                they are not going that great by the way.. have you actually watched a game or just reading results..

                mumm got better reviews up here and had a bigger impact with exeter than horwill is..

                we need to go forward not backwards

    • November 26th 2017 @ 10:05am
      MH01 said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:05am | ! Report

      Has the Scottish cricket team ever put over 50 on Australia ?

    • November 26th 2017 @ 10:06am
      Discrete Pete said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:06am | ! Report

      I’m a Yank living in Vegas and I have followed the Wallabies and the Reds for years. I watched the game from 06:30 this morning my time on and I have to say, I am just stunned by the Wallabies performance.

      Scotland have improved a lot in the last couple of years but today they won easily despite making several basic errors, dropping crucial passes etc – It could have been 70 – 24.

      Considering the Wallabies recent record against the ABs, SA, the English and now Scotland 2-0 when does the coach get replaced?

      • November 26th 2017 @ 10:17am
        double agent said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:17am | ! Report

        They probably can’t afford to pay out his contract.

        • November 26th 2017 @ 10:28am
          Train Without A Station said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:28am | ! Report

          I believe that is the case.

          Appointing him for 4 more years was a poor decision.

          He should have been offered a 2 year contract to the end of 2017 to be negotiated in June this year for an extension.

          I understand they looked to wrap Cheika up after the RWC, but England’s down turn in 2014-2015 and what resulted in a fairly easy run to the final not facing a top 5 ranked side in the knock out stage, made Cheika look better than he was.

          Just over 3 seasons at the helm, it shows the RWC was the anomaly, with 2016 and the 2014 EOYT being the norm.

          • Roar Guru

            November 26th 2017 @ 10:38am
            PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:38am | ! Report

            IMO he should resign for the sake of australian rugby since they can’t afford to pay him out.

            • November 26th 2017 @ 11:23am
              Charlie Turner said | November 26th 2017 @ 11:23am | ! Report

              What are the odds on that happening?

              • Roar Guru

                November 26th 2017 @ 11:32am
                PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 11:32am | ! Report

                Cheika believes in himself and the path he has taken too much to do it off his own bat.

                However he really is behind aust rugby and supports it greatly, it means a lot to him, it isn’t just a job.

                So if the ARU told him they don’t think it is working and asked him to resign he would for the good of rugby and not ask for a payout.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 12:00pm
                Charlie Turner said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:00pm | ! Report

                That would be the ideal outcome but I don’t see it unfolding that way. He has a long flight home and is surrounded by yes men. Maybe if Pulver abstains from voting given he’s on the way out there’s a chance.

                Either way RA can’t afford not to do it.

              • Roar Guru

                November 26th 2017 @ 12:08pm
                PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:08pm | ! Report

                It all depends on the new CEO.

                If the new CEO doesn’t believe Cheika is the man for the job he will him to resign.

                New CEO’s are renowned for clearing decks when they first get in, it is their main opportunity.

                If the new CEO is Kearns (a terrible decision IMO) will he support Cheika and the path he is going?

                The new CEO is due to be replace Pulver February at the latest.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 12:13pm
                Charlie Turner said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:13pm | ! Report

                Kearns? Has he ever had an administration position? Is there a list of applicants?

              • Roar Guru

                November 26th 2017 @ 12:28pm
                PeterK said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:28pm | ! Report

                Kearns is a managing director of a small insurance co.

                There are 3 candidates it seems. (none of great quality, shows how unattractive the position is).

                Former Bulldogs boss Raelene Castle is another candidate.


              • November 26th 2017 @ 12:38pm
                Charlie Turner said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:38pm | ! Report

                Castle would be extremely irritating but at least she wouldn’t be a nepotistic appointment. Neither candidate inspires hope though.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 1:10pm
                Highlander said | November 26th 2017 @ 1:10pm | ! Report

                Not sure appointing a kiwi CEO would go down well.

                A few mumbles around that the 3rd candidate is a current board member and is the favorite.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 1:35pm
                Charlie Turner said | November 26th 2017 @ 1:35pm | ! Report

                Highlander, whom might that be? McLean and Robinson might be ok but not much inspiration amongst the others.

              • November 26th 2017 @ 4:20pm
                Highlander said | November 26th 2017 @ 4:20pm | ! Report

                Could only be McLean couldn’t it

            • November 26th 2017 @ 1:14pm
              Mike said | November 26th 2017 @ 1:14pm | ! Report

              PeterK, what you believe Cheika should do is irrelevant. Lets be honest about this. Perhaps someone who is particularly self-effacing and introverted might resign. Does that sound like Cheika?

              ARU used up a lot of money when they paid out Robbie Deans. They don’t have the money to do it again. So Cheika is there.

      • November 26th 2017 @ 10:19am
        MH01 said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:19am | ! Report

        Seems he is not accountable, unlike deans and Mckenzie.

        • November 26th 2017 @ 12:22pm
          Wallace footrot said | November 26th 2017 @ 12:22pm | ! Report

          Exactly MH01!

        • November 26th 2017 @ 1:14pm
          Mike said | November 26th 2017 @ 1:14pm | ! Report

          They paid out Deans before his contact was up. They don’t have the money to do it again.

      • November 26th 2017 @ 10:50am
        Gewurtz said | November 26th 2017 @ 10:50am | ! Report

        Never. Mr Cheika seems to have a firm grip on the position. End of the discussion.

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