Alan:

You are correct that I did not make an explicit 1-10 ranking and you are also correct that my general evaluation of Nash is “great but not really much better than Mark Price.”

The Price comparison may seem odd to people who did not closely follow Price’s career but, when Price was healthy in the early 1990s, he was every bit as good as Nash was at his peak. The main case for Nash against Price is not skill set but rather longevity.

You are correct that the Mavs changed their roster between 2005 and 2011 but were the changes really significant individual upgrades? Maybe Chandler is an upgrade at center but a combination of Jason Terry and old Jason Kidd should not be better than Nash if Nash is really worthy of two MVPs. The Mavs also beat Nash’s Suns head to head in the playoffs not long after Nash departed, when the Mavs’ roster may have been different but certainly not upgraded enough to account for replacing a two-time MVP with Terry (a good player but not an all-time great).

Express34Texas:

I agree that Payton could be mentioned rather prominently on a list of all-time great pgs. The list in my article was not meant to be comprehensive but just to suggest that for each era from the 1950s through the 2000s there are pgs who should be ranked ahead of Nash. Walt Frazier could be added as well, plus some others.

Regarding Cousy, he was a big-time scorer and playmaker during his era. The field goal percentages at that time were universally low (other than Wilt’s); some of that had to do with playing conditions, travel circumstances leading to fatigue and even the rough nature of the game (fights did not necessarily lead to ejections and other forms of physical contact might result in a missed shot but not a foul). Also, I think (but am not sure) that at least for a certain period missed field goal attempts that resulted in shooting fouls were counted in the statistics as a miss. Cousy was the best of his era and even though he was small he was not smaller than Stockton, Isiah, Price, Nash and others who succeeded in more recent times. I think that if a young Cousy were transplanted to the modern era he would do quite well.

My point is that, although Nash announced his retirement recently, Nash has not been an impact player for several years. I did not intend to disparage him but simply to state that his de facto retirement happened a while ago.

I don’t know what people believe about Price but knowledgeable basketball observers credit Price with changing the way teams played the pick and roll offensively and the way that they defended it defensively–and Price did this in an era when much more contact was allowed on the perimeter.

Nash had a great career and I know that his fans very passionately defend him but the reality is that he won less than any other player who received two MVPs. That does not mean that Nash was not great but it does suggest that maybe he did not deserve two MVPs, particularly in an era when Shaq, Duncan and Kobe were dominating the league.

I agree with your implication that Chris Paul is somewhat overrated in the sense that some people tout him as an MVP candidate at times even though his playoff success has been very limited–but this article is not about Paul.

Of course, you are right that the stats were switched. That is my fault and the error has been fixed. I guess the numbers are so similar that even I got confused, which proves my point 🙂

Iain:

I know because I was there, because I spoke with the players, the coaches and other personnel involved in the series and because I watched what happened with my own eyes after years of watching many other LeBron performances with my own eyes.

Do you think if you were playing your hardest or just dogging it no one would be able to tell the difference without a psychology degree and a lot of investigation?

Kobe went 5-2 in the Finals and he also carried Smush Parker/Kwame Brown to the playoffs twice. LeBron twice had the top seed in the East without even making it to the Finals. LeBron has gone 2-3 in the Finals. Those are just some of the reasons I can say with confidence that LeBron’s playoff resume does not measure up to Kobe’s. I could–and have–written about this subject at much greater length in articles for various publications during that era.

Iain:

I did not even mention 2007 in my article, though it has been discussed here in the comments section.

In 2004, the Lakers suffered injuries to Malone and Fisher, plus Payton suddenly aged 200 years and could no longer guard anyone.

(I am waiting for someone to challenge my statement by saying that during the NBA Finals in 2004 Payton did not literally age 200 years, so my statement is biased).

Phil Jackson has said that the Malone injury was the number one factor in the series and that Kobe had to wear himself out on defense because Payton was so deficient.

Without Kobe, the injury-riddled 2004 Lakers would have been swept in the 2004 Finals. You can say that he did not play well or did not play as well as usual but he did not quit; he did not play fundamentally differently than usual.

Fitzy:

Jordan averaged 36.7 ppg in the three game fives he had at home with the series tied 2-2. His lowest scoring game of the bunch came in a blowout or he would have scored more. You are missing the larger point that I made. Magic, Jordan and Bryant went 15-1 in such games. The greatest of the great win such games.

I disagree with you that it is impossible to tell if a player has quit. You can tell if a player is playing hard or if he is dogging it. I don’t know why James quit and will not speculate about that but I know what I saw.

Pete:

Here is some information about Kobe Bryant’s performances in game fives at home with the series tied 2-2:

Utah, 2008: 26 points, six rebounds, seven assists in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series in six games.

Houston, 2009: 26 points, four rebounds, three assists in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series in seven games.

Denver, 2009: 22 points, five rebounds, eight assists in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series in six games.

Oklahoma City, 2010: 13 points, three rebounds, seven assists in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series in six games.

Phoenix, 2010: 30 points, 11 rebounds, nine assists in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series in six games.

Boston, 2010: 38 points, five rebounds, four assists in a Lakers loss. The Lakers won the series and the championship in seven games.

New Orleans, 2011: 19 points, 12 rebounds, four assists in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series in six games.

Denver, 2012: 43 points, six rebounds, five assists in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series in seven games.

Bryant played in eight game fives at home with the series tied 2-2. His teams won seven of those game fives and all eight of those series, meaning that when a playoff series went deep and his team enjoyed home court advantage Bryant found a way to help his team prevail. He did not quit and he was never the reason that his teams lost such series. Bryant averaged 27.1 ppg in those games.

Bryant also played in five game fives on the road with the series tied 2-2. Bryant’s teams went 2-3 in those game fives but ended up winning three of the five series. Bryant averaged 28.4 ppg in those game fives.

I should not have said that anyone would go for 50 points in a given playoff game, because 50 point playoff games are pretty rare—but the substance of my assertion was that Magic, Jordan and Bryant would do what they did best and find a way to lead their teams to victories in those situations. Magic went 5-0 in such games, Jordan went 3-0 and Bryant went 7-1 (but his team went on to win the series in which they lost in game five). Thus, Magic, Jordan and Bryant went a combined 15-1 in game fives at home and their teams won all 16 series when they had home court advantage and were tied 2-2.

This should make it clear just how big of a blemish that game five versus Boston in 2010 is on LeBron James’ resume. When all-time great players face a 2-2 situation at home they come through and carry their teams to victory. James quit and his team went down in flames. Throw in James’ performances in the 2007, 2011 and 2014 Finals and you have a lot more subpar efforts/outcomes than one would expect to see from a player of James’ caliber.

Pete:

Here is some information about Magic Johnson’s performances in game fives at home with the series tied 2-2:

Philadelphia, 1980: 14 points, 10 assists, 15 rebounds in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series and the championship in six games.

Boston, 1985: 26 points, 17 assists, six rebounds in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series and the championship in six games.

Dallas, 1986: 29 points, 14 assists, seven rebounds in a Lakers win. The Lakers won the series in six games.

Utah, 1988: 20 points 13 assists, three rebounds in a Lakers victory. The Lakers won the series in seven games.

Dallas, 1988: 15 points, 20 assists, six rebounds in a Lakers victory. The Lakers won the series in seven games.

So, in my article I said that in a hypothetical game five at home with the series tied 2-2, Magic would go for 22 points, 14 assists and 10 rebounds. Magic faced that situation five times in his career and he averaged 20.8 ppg, 14.8 apg and 7.4 rpg. I think that it is safe to say that my statement is “based in fact.”

JP:

Thank you for taking my article at face value and considering what I actually said.

Pete:

Thank you for taking the time to read my article and write such an in depth comment.

While I appreciate your time and effort, I disagree with several of your statements/conclusions.

In 2010, LeBron James’ Cavs had the best record in the NBA and owned home court advantage throughout the playoffs. They played Boston in game five at home. In a tied series, the game five winner wins the series about 80% of the time (I should have specified tied series in my earlier comment but I thought that was obvious, since that was the relevant situation). James quit and the Cavs were blown out. You don’t have to be a master psychologist to know that James quit. Just watch how James normally plays and watch that game. Imagine how hard you or anyone else would play if your life were on the line; imagine how hard you would play if you did not care about the outcome. Do you really think that it would take a psychology degree to be able to discern the difference? I think that it is not as difficult as you suggest to gauge if someone is playing hard or if someone is quitting.

For comparison purposes, the only actual games from Jordan’s career that are close to matching this situation (2-2 series, game five at home) are as follows:

Cleveland, 1989 (this was an elimination game, since the second round series at that time lasted five games not seven, and Jordan played on the road since Cleveland had home court advantage in the series): 44 points, 9 rebounds, 6 assists, 17-32 field goal shooting, 101-100 Chicago win.

Detroit, 1989 (this game was played on the road, not at home): 18 points, 9 assists, 5 rebounds, 4-8 field goal shooting, 94-85 Detroit win. Detroit also won game six.

Detroit 1990 (this game was played on the road, not at home): 22 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 7-19 field goal shooting, 97-83 Detroit win. Detroit won the series in seven games.

The Bulls were so dominant during their 1991 championship run that they never had a 2-2 series.

New York, 1992: 37 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 11-23 field goal shooting, 96-88 Chicago win. Chicago won the series in seven games.

Cleveland, 1992: 37 points, 5 assists, 3 rebounds, 13-28 field goal shooting, 112-89 Chicago win. Chicago won the series in six games.

Portland, 1992 (this game was played on the road): 46 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 14-23 field goal shooting, 119-106 Chicago win. Chicago won the series in six games.

New York, 1993 (this game was played on the road): 29 points, 14 assists, 10 rebounds, 11-24 field goal shooting, 97-94 Chicago win. Chicago won the series in six games.

The Bulls had a 3-1 lead in the 1993 Finals when they lost game five (so it does not fit in with the 2-2 series situation described here). Jordan had 41 points in that defeat and then the Bulls won the title in game six.

Orlando, 1995 (this game was played on the road): 39 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 15-28 field goal shooting, 103-95 Orlando win. Orlando won the series in six games.

The 1996 Bulls were so dominant they never had a 2-2 series during their championship run.

Utah, 1997 (this game was played on the road): 38 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 13-27 field goal shooting, 90-88 Chicago win. Chicago won the series and the title in six games.

Indiana, 1998: 29 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 12-20 field goal shooting, 106-87 Chicago win. Chicago won the series in seven games.

So, I said in my article that in a hypothetical game five situation at home with a 2-2 series I thought that Jordan would go for 40 or 50 instead of quitting like LeBron James did. Jordan actually faced three such situations in his career, scoring 44, 37 and 29 in three wins for a 36.7 ppg average. That 29 point game was a blowout or else Jordan would/could have scored more. Jordan also had five game fives on the road in a 2-2 series. That is a tougher task, of course, playing on the road against a team with a better record. In those games, Jordan averaged 32.6 ppg and his teams went 2-3.

Jordan did not quit in any of those games and he was not the reason for the three losses.

James played poorly against the Spurs in 2007 but that was early in his career and the Cavs were not favorites. That series has been mentioned in the extensive comments section following my article but I did not include it in my article.

Somehow you missed not only the title of the Leonard article (Kawhi Leonard wreaking havoc on LeBron) but also the points about how well Leonard denied James the ball and forced James to do things he did not want to do. If you don’t like that particular article, you can google LeBron James and Kawhi Leonard to find plenty of articles about how well Leonard played against James.

My point about James’ shooting versus passing is that James and others like to characterize him as a pass-first, Magic Johnson-type player. The reality is that James is a shoot-first player who is also a gifted passer. That is to his credit as an all-around player but James won his two championships (and took the Cavs to the 2007 Finals) when he accepted the burden of being a big-time scorer. His teams need him to score. The passing is a bonus. If you look at James’ scoring averages in his NBA Finals’ appearances, you will see the clear correlation between his increased scoring and his team’s increased success. Saying that James is a pass-first player is code for saying that he is not selfish and also a way to excuse the games when James does not score a lot by saying he was looking to pass. When a player averages 28-30 ppg during the regular season and playoffs and then, in the biggest games, decides to pass to teammates who have hardly shot the ball all season long that is not being unselfish. That is quitting and/or being scared of the moment. That is why Wade told James flat out that James had to score more and be more aggressive in the playoffs, not just in the regular season.

Jordan retired in 1993 after going 3-0 in the NBA Finals. Retiring is not quitting. Maybe you need a new dictionary. LeBron James quit at home in game five of a winnable playoffs series while playing for the team with the best record in the league. Jordan retired in the offseason after his father was shot and killed. Then Jordan came back less than two years later and won three more titles.

I don’t know why you and other people take such umbrage at the mere thought of comparing James to a few of the greatest players ever or why you and others think it is necessary to twist numbers, facts and history to somehow supposedly defend the honor of a player who I said is one of the best ever and who deserves this year’s MVP.

Larry:

Thank you.

You are right that some people act like it is a crime against basketball to even attempt to analyze Jordan and LeBron, though those same people do not hesitate to bash other great players without even bothering to put forth the correct facts and statistics.

Express34Texas:

Those are excellent points. It is funny how some people want to give James all of the credit for the ’07-’10 Cavs’ success but then absolve him for his playoff failures during that era. Even in some of the series in which he put up big numbers, he performed very strangely and passively at key moments.

Toni:

Nice to know that you can use a computer as well, though you might look into spell check.

Russell ranked in the top ten in the league in field goal percentage four times. He also ranked in the top ten in the league in assists four times. He was not a big-time scorer because his team did not need him to be one, but his rebounding and passing made Boston’s fast break attack very deadly.

In the 1982 Finals, the Lakers switched Magic on to Dr. J–one of the deadliest offensive players in pro basketball history–because Dr. J was killing the Lakers on the offensive boards. Magic did not shut down Doc by any means but Magic did a credible job of limiting Dr. J’s offensive rebounding. Magic was also great at playing the passing lanes and he was an outstanding defensive rebounder. A defensive possession is not complete until the defensive team controls the rebound. I agree with you about Bird’s defense but he did make the All-Defensive Team a few times and he also played the passing lanes well. Jordan won the Defensive Player of the Year and was arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all-time.

You can make the argument that James is the second greatest player ever if you feel like it but that argument would be pretty weak and would not fly against someone who actually knows about basketball history prior to 2005.

Russell, Kareem and Jordan were all still major forces in their 12th seasons. Dr. J was an All-NBA First Teamer and a star on one of the greatest single season teams of all-time (1983 76ers) in his 12th season.

I don’t know what else to tell you other than just about every assertion you made is flat out wrong.

Steve:

How many of those three championships do you think that the Lakers win without Kobe playing at an All-NBA level and being one of the top five players in the league for the majority of that run? The Lakers had a great one-two punch. Note also that Shaq did not win a title until he teamed up with Kobe and he only won one title after leaving L.A., while Kobe won two titles without Shaq. LeBron James left a team that had posted back to back 60 win seasons in order to hand pick two future Hall of Famers to play alongside him.

Ryan:

How is it “nitpicking of the highest order”? It’s like you don’t think that it is valid or permissible to even attempt to analyze/compare the careers of the greatest players of all-time. I just don’t understand the outrage. I compared James to several of the very greatest players ever and provided several valid reasons/examples indicating that he does not quite measure up. Sure, James “belongs in the conversation”–do you not understand that this is in fact the very premise of my article? James is “in the conversation”–and when that conversation takes place logically and dispassionately there are some blemishes on James’ resume compared to the resumes of the players who I mentioned. Maybe those players have blemishes, too, but they don’t have losing records in the Finals, they did not repeatedly quit in playoff games, they did not repeatedly get outplayed by lesser players and they never spoke of–let alone entered–“chill mode.”

Tony:

LeBron entered the NBA straight out of high school, so the apt comparison with Jordan is not age but years of experience. Jordan won his fifth title in his 12th season (and that is counting his 17 game comeback from baseball as a complete season; otherwise, he won his sixth title in his 12th season), while LeBron has won two titles in 11 seasons and is in his 12th season now.

Ryan:

I think that when you call yourself the King and have a Chosen One tattoo you are holding yourself to a pretty high standard. That is worth remembering when saying that LeBron is being criticized too much.

We all agree that LeBron is great. If we are trying to put that greatness in historical context, to whom should LeBron be compared? The only meaningful comparisons are to other great players. Those players were also held to that standard. Most, if not all of them, welcome that. Kobe clearly patterned himself after Jordan. Jordan openly stated that he wanted to win at least as many titles as Magic and Bird.

No one is saying that MJ was faultless. However, on several occasions LeBron was outplayed individually in playoff series by players who are clearly inferior. That never happened to Jordan. Never. Danny Ainge was not outplaying Jordan when Jordan’s Bulls faced the Celtics.

In this article, I mentioned and praised LeBron’s accomplishments and then I listed what some other all-time greats did and how they approached the game. I am sorry that you cannot see the difference between LeBron and those players and that you don’t even think that the subject is worthy of discussion.

I thought that some people would agree with what I wrote and some people would disagree but I am baffled that some people think that the subject is not even worth discussing and/or that I have somehow been unfair to LeBron.

Iain:

Yes, reaching the Finals and losing is better than not reaching the Finals at all. That is why I did not compare LeBron to Dominique Wilkins or Bernard King.

I am not “penalizing” LeBron. Reaching the Finals in 2007, reaching the Finals five times overall and winning two titles are major reasons that LeBron deserves to be considered an all-time great–and the poor way that he performed in the 2007 Finals, the 2010 playoffs versus Boston, the 2011 Finals and (to a lesser extent) the 2014 Finals are why he does not quite measure up to the players I mentioned in my article.

Is it really that hard to understand the concept that LeBron is great because of all that he has accomplished but that some of his failures suggest that he is not as great as a handful of other players?

Grammatically, one can call someone “great,” “greater than X” or “the greatest.” I have made it clear that I think LeBron is “great” and that he is “greater than most.” I just don’t think that he is the greatest of all-time. Are his fans so sensitive that the merest suggestion that he might “only” be fifth or 10th or (heaven forbid) 15th greatest is really an outrage?

A few years ago, I did a series of articles about the Basketball Pantheon, listing the 10 greatest retired players. In the last part of the series, I listed the active players who I considered potential future Pantheon members and I included LeBron even before he won his two titles. I have a very high regard for LeBron–and I also have a high regard for Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Jordan and Kobe. We should not “hate” those players or forget what they accomplished just to praise LeBron because he is playing now.

Ryan:

LeBron is also not likely to catch Kareem, Magic, MJ or Kobe in terms of championships–which is kind of the whole point.

LeBron is great and deserves to be compared to the all-time greats–and when that comparison is made objectively, he falls a bit short in some areas.

I already explained why I–and many others–believe that LeBron quit. If you covered James on a regular basis and saw how he normally played then you know that he quit. Put it this way: if someone told you that your life depended on how well you played in a given game I am pretty sure that, even if you were so nervous that you missed all 20 shots you took, anyone could tell that you were playing hard and not quitting. It is not hard to tell if someone is trying hard.

Did you find your way to the Leonard link at ESPN yet? It explains what it means to be outplayed. Ditto for the Jason Terry link that I cited earlier.

I don’t think that LeBron matches the players I mentioned in my article and I have supported my opinion with a lot of facts and statistics. You are of course free to disagree but the vehemence of your disagreement makes you sound a lot more like a passionate fan than an objective analyst.

It is valid to compare the five or 10 greatest players to each other and it is not an insult to rank them or to say that one is greater than another.

I have given LeBron plenty of respect–so much, in fact, that I think the only valid comparisons are the best of the best. The people who are seriously suggesting that Curry and Harden are better than LeBron are the ones who deserve your ire.

Swampy:

Again, I agree that LeBron is an all-time great and I stated this at the start of the article.

My point is that in comparison with other all-time greats LeBron has had some puzzling and disappointing playoff performances.

Considering all factors, including work ethic and leadership (not just looking at stats, as so many people do), I doubt that many GMs would take prime LeBron over prime Kobe. You could see the difference in championship mentality when they were on Team USA together. LeBron failed when he was with a star-studded Team USA that did not include Kobe but when Kobe was added to the mix that made the difference after Team USA had been embarrassed in several previous FIBA events. I spoke with people who had firsthand knowledge of Kobe’s approach, his practice habits and his influence on the team and they stated that Kobe changed the team’s whole culture.

Magic took his team to nine Finals in 12 full seasons, winning five titles, and he did so in perhaps the most competitive era in the league’s history, battling against the likes of Bird, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Isiah Thomas and Michael Jordan. Magic won a championship as a rookie and played in the Finals in his final full season. So far, LeBron has a 2-3 Finals record in 11 seasons (he is playing his 12th season now and obviously could add to that Finals total now or in the next few years). Winning two championships is very good but does not compare favorably to Magic’s accomplishments.

Express34texas:

I agree that a case could be made that I am letting James off too easily. I was actually a bit more critical prior to 2012 and 2013 but I think that James deserves credit for finally, belatedly realizing the responsibility that is incumbent on him as the best player. He has admitted that he mishandled the “Decision” and that he did not take the right approach during the 2011 Finals. He took a bit of a step back in last year’s Finals, though, and his “chill mode” comment (and the way he played in matching that comment) was strange. The Cavs have been the best team in the league the past two months and may very well win the 2015 championship–but I also would not be surprised if James plays listlessly in the ECF or the Finals. That is the “it” factor that is missing. Russell and the others I mentioned were never the primary reason that their teams lost. As you mentioned, LeBron has had great casts around him for years in the East and it could easily be argued that he should have won more than two titles.

LeBron is a great player but it does seem like he should have accomplished even more than he has. The same thing could be said of Shaq. Imagine if Shaq had been wired like MJ or Kobe!

Ryan:

I gave LeBron credit for being the best player in the game for the past several years, including this season. To suggest otherwise indicates that you just have not read my article very carefully.

I am saying that LeBron is not as great as some of the very greatest players ever. You may agree or disagree. You cannot honestly say that I am “hating” LeBron or not giving him credit for being great. I am only comparing him to great players precisely because he is great.

I am not rewriting history. Kobe took more shots that game than any other player. He did not stand around and play without effort at any point. The Lakers were trailing by 15 at halftime even after he scored 23 points. Phil Jackson decided that the Lakers should slow the game down and try to pound the ball inside. Even if Kobe had shot 50 times the Lakers still would have lost. It is funny to me that the same people who say Kobe did not shoot in that game also blame him for shooting too much against Detroit in 2004. So, basically, no matter what Kobe does the Kobe-haters will blame him.

In game five versus Boston, LeBron played completely differently than he did throughout the season and during the playoffs. This was not part of the game plan. He quit. He did the same thing the next year in the Finals versus Dallas. That is when Wade told him about his responsibility as a great player and LeBron did much better in the 2012 and 2013 championship runs.

Iain Quinn:

I know that he quit because he spent that game standing around listlessly on the perimeter and did not attack the hoop. After covering him for multiple seasons and playoff runs, I have a good idea what he looks like when he is fully engaged. I am not blaming him for his stats as much as for how he played.

Look at the roster the year after LeBron left; almost the entire roster changed, plus the team fired the coach and the GM (the same GM who has now built Atlanta into the team with the East’s best record). The comparison of the Cavs with and without LeBron has to take that into account. A great, MVP level player is typically worth about 20 wins and that is how much the Cavs would have declined without LeBron, all other things being equal.

The ’94 Bulls lost MJ but they kept the rest of the team and coaching staff intact and some of their young players (like B.J. Armstrong) improved.

Ryan:

I think that we can make some evaluations after a decade:

1) LeBron is not going to catch Russell’s 11; he will be hard-pressed to match five, for that matter.
2) LeBron is not going to go 6-0 like Jordan; he is unlikely to have a better Finals winning percentage than any of the players I mentioned.
3) LeBron has already quit and/or been outplayed by inferior players more often than all of the other players combined. Even when Jordan lost (in playoff series before the Finals) he played very well. The Jason Terrys of his era were not outplaying him. Likewise for Russell and the rest.

Let’s say that LeBron goes 2-1 in the Finals before retiring as a Cav. That would leave him at 4-4 in the Finals, which is very good–and it is also worse than every player I mentioned.

I think that comparing LeBron to these players makes more sense and will stand the test of time more than comparing him to Curry and Harden (though I actually did that, too, in an earlier article).

Ryan:

LeBron quit in game five of the Boston series, when a victory would have all but assured a series win. I am not “suggesting” this. I saw it with my own eyes, live, after watching him play live in many other games that regular season and postseason. I also listened to him make excuses and say that he had “spoiled” the fans.

The game in which Kobe supposedly refused to shoot is a myth. He had a big first half scoring (23 points on 8-13 shooting) and the Lakers were down by 15. Coach Phil Jackson asked Kobe to spread the ball around more in the third quarter, he did and the Lakers fell behind by 10 more. Kobe attempted more shots than any player from either team in that game and he sat out the final five minutes of the fourth quarter because it was a blowout. This myth persists much like the myth that Wilt Chamberlain was such a loser that his team lost his 100 point game (they actually won, 169-147).

The only game that the Lakers won in the 2004 Finals came courtesy of Kobe’s heroics. You might want to research that series a little more in depth. Malone and Fisher were hurt and Payton by that point could not guard Chauncey Billups’ grandmother, let alone Chauncey Billups in his prime. Those factors are why the Lakers lost.

Regarding LeBron, I am not talking about “bad” games. Everyone has had “bad” games, even Jordan. I am talking about quitting when LeBron’s team was on the verge of a series victory. I am also talking about multiple series in which inferior players outplayed LeBron.

LeBron was not great in the 2014 Finals. Try the link again. I just clicked on it and it worked fine. If you really cannot find your way there, I will cut and paste some direct quotes in a future comment.

LeBron’s Cavs won 60 games multiple times. He had an ensemble roster around him of defenders and three point shooters. He did not have another superstar but his supporting cast was much better than most people say. One guy, even as great as LeBron, does not win 60-plus games alone.

Magic made some gaffes in 1984. He did not flat out quit.