Please, the Rebels have a greater chance of becoming a dominant sporting team in Melbourne than an AFL team being successfull in NZ.

Wellington Phoenix got over 20k to a one-off game in Auckland last year, and they are struggling to survive. I don’t quite see how 20k to a one off AFL game makes a team there any more viable long term, particularly when that country has less history with AFL than any other code.

As for Tasmania, the population base is too small for the A-League to currently establish a successfull team. The AFL, with it’s greater TV revenue, is the only sport likely to be abe to sustain a team in the Apple Isle, but I think even for them it is a risk.

The Bears finished 8th in 95, and 3rd in 96, with an averge crowd of 18,088 their best ever result. In 1996 their average away crowd was 20304.

In 97 the Lions dropped to 8th, then 16th, but were preliminary finalists the next year, semi-finalists after that, and premiers one year latter.

Also in 97, crowds increased to 19550 at home and 27062 away, an 8% and 33% increase respectively.

Three former Fitzroy players were still on the field and key players when Lions won their first premiership.

I’m not sure how anyone can argue that the merger with Fitzroy did not lift the profile of the club in both Brisbane and Melbourne, and that it did not improve the clubs playing strength.

I’m not a big AFL fan, and am not from Sydney, but I am fascined by the GWS experiment. If you throw enough money at it, can a sporting team eventually attract enough support to become self sustaining and sccessfull?

Does Western Sydney have enough current supporters of AFL to make the team successfull long term? This probably relies on whaever supporters are out there are not alread strongly affiliated with anoher team, and are prepared to change allegiance.

Can enough people be converted to watching the sport and becoming passionate fans? It’s certainly possible, but it will take a long time to attract substantial numbers in a fairly competitie marketplace.

Will these fans stick by the team if it continues to be unsuccessfull year after year? Some will, some won’t, but Brisbane Lions have surely demonstrated that a period of sustained success is necessary, in a non-traditional AFL area.

Will the eventual success or failure of GWS demonstrate the success or failure of AFL’s attempt to become the dominant sport in the country ahead of the NRL? I believe Sydney is large enough to support one AFL team without impacting too greatly on the NRL, but two might start to see NRL support beome erroded, particularly with Football currently on the rise.

Will the NRL become more agressive in trying to secure it’s own hearlands agaisnt the incursions of both AFL and Football? All codes seem to be growing at the moment, but for mind, this is a batlle the NRL, and especially the local West Sydney clubs, can not afford to lose. I expect them to become much more aggressive in the marketplace.

So can GWS survive? If the AFL keeps pouring money into it, and there is no sign that they wont, then yes of course.

Can they be successull? The Brisbane Lions success only came after the merger with Fitzroy. Without such a boost, I tend to think it’s going to be a long hard struggle that ultimately will not fullfill the optimistic strategic goals of the AFL. It will be a long time before the AFL sees a positive return on it’s ever increasing investment.

My understanding is that the FFA has the rights to all Socceroo matches including World Cup and Asian Cup qualifying matches, but not games in the actual touraments. Broadcast rights for those are controled by the respective governing bodies.

For example, SBS has bought the rights to the World Cup Tournament from FIFA, which is why they can show all games in that tournament including Austraia’s, but the broadcast rights for all other Socceroo matches had been sold by the FFA to Fox.

30 years ago when I started playing senior football, out of 70 registered senior players, almost none of them ever attended an NSL game. Why would you go to support a club that you might be playing against next week in the local competition?

From the junior point of view, many parents and particularly fathers, were players or supporters of the other codes, so it was difficult to attract juniors regularly in large numbers.

Many of the most passionate supporters, of course, already devoted a huge amount of their time, effort, energy,and money, to supporting their local grassroots club. There was little left over to support an NSL team..

The fact is, the NSL clubs, and particularly the ethnic based ones were almost universally unsuccessful at conecting with the greater footballing community, let alone the general public.

It was not a case of euro-snobbery, but more basically that there was no tradtion of putting the effort in to go to national football games.

That is all changing now as the A-League gains traction amongst the general public. Players now do attend HAL games regularly, fathers are more likely to take their kids to the games, club volunteers and supporters see more of a link, or perhaps less competition, betwen themselves and the independant A-League teams.

The progress made in 8 years to change the habit of generations is nothing short of phenomenal.

Yes more needs to be done, and it will still be a long slow process, but I have no doubt we are on the right road, bumpy as it is still likely to be.

I’d agree with most of the article Vince except the bit about Sydney FC.

I seem to recall that ADP was playing for them the entire season, including when SFC were giving away 2.5 goals per match, and were absolutely woefull.

Surely it was the arrival of Frank Farina that arrested the slide.

Suggesting that they are relevant after they finished seventh, is stretching the friendship a little as well, don’t you think?

Arnie had his shot at the National Team, and I don’t think enough time has passed to warrant his return just yet.

Poppa, obviously too inexperienced at the moment. One season doesn’t make a career. Lets see if he can sustain the current success of WSW, or how he handles adversity before promotting him aboove his current level.

It’s been proven a couple of times just this season that an assistant doesn’t necessarilly make a good replacement for a coach. By the same logic, it doesn’t necessarily follow that an assistant will necessarilly make a poor replacement for an underperforming coach either. I always thought Vidmar did a good job with Adelaide, and had success in Asia.

As for Ange, I think he has proved his ability. The suggestion that he takes time to mould a side has a certain element of truth, but you must remember that he is going into clubs, where the playing roster is fairly well established. As coach of the national side, he would be able to pick and chose players that fitted whatever system he wanted to play. To my mind, his greatest tregth has been his ability to get the most out of whatever players he has at his disposal. Also havng watched his limited Asian expoits with the Roar, I’m fairly confident in saying that it was more that the players not up to the task, rather than the coach.

I think he has unfinished business with Victory at the moment though, and might not want the move.

I’d be happy to see either Vidmar or Postecoglou, given a chance, at least through to the next Asian cup, should the opportunity arise. I don’t think the national team would perform any worse than they are at the moment.

I don’t quite get the coming of age reference. No doubt this has been a great season, but it’s only expanding upon what has been happening for the past two, and long may it continue. 50k+ sell outs in the smaller city of Brisbane for those two seasons would suggest that a 40k+ sellout in Sydney, for two NSW based teams should be expected. Anything less would have been a backward step.

The real test for the sport comes next year, when the much anticipated FTA coverage on SBS starts up. Despite the belief by many that it will sky rocket the sport into main stream credibility, I am yet to be convinced that that will be the case, at least in the short term.

Can it engage a wider public audience? Will those curious about the much vaunted atmosphere of “Wanderland” be dissappointed by the apathy at Heart games, or the wide open spaces in the stands at Lang Park?

While I do not believe success on free to air is necessary to sustain the current succeess of the sport, it is only when FTA is drawing viewers close to the level of the AFL or NRL that I will consider the sport to have “come of age”.

Both sides have certainly based their success on a strong defence.

CCM this season has the second best defensive record in the history of the A-League, and is only pipped by the astonishing 21 GA record, at 0.78 per game, of WSW. More than anything I am amazed that Wanderers could fashion such a successfull defence in only one season.

Both sides have a way to go to catch the amazing 58 GF that Roar mustered in 2011, but 48 for CCM shows that they are no slouches in front of goal.

j binnie above, like many others, claims that it isn’t possible for a “Barca” to exist in Australia. I disagree, I saw it in 2011 every second week at Suncorp Stadium. Now perhaps the Roar of that year were not as good as the real Barca, but then again they didn’t have to play against Real Madrid either.

The interest for me next season is to see if Poppa can improve on what he has created this year. Ange failed to do it with Roar, and binging in “better” players is no gaurantee of making a better system.

j binnie, there’s a big difference between CCM and WSW. CCM are really a small provincial club with little commercial potential, while WSW are a major city entity with an exciting product that smart business people are going to want to be involved with.

Taking a stake in CCM is a labour of love, and unless you have some sort of link with the area, it holds little potential and therefore little appeal to the corporate sector.

WSW on the other hand are being spoken about across the entire country. I had people commenting to me only last night about the amazing crowd support at Fridays match. No one has ever said a word to me solely about CCM in eight years of the a-league.

WSW obviously has a much larger potential market than CCM. It is already developing a national identity. Any corporation that has the slightest interest in supporting a football team will see the obvious potential in getting involved with one of the hottest commodities in the country, basically on the ground floor.

As an added bonus, western Sydney is also one of the largest population centres in the country, so it has a far greater chance of having business people who already have an emotional link to the region and who want to get involved.

CCM is a hard sell.

WSW will have investors knocking the door down, if they aren’t already.

I wonder how much the extra exposure of having ADP in the side helped?

Emotionally dissappointed that Roar din’t reach the GF, but intellecutally relieved the top two teams are there, but I am still not in favour of this finals format.

Apparently fans of the A-League last year voted with their feet, and stayed away from the two legged semi final, and preliminary final, hence this years abbreviated system.

In 2011, CCM had 10,166 to their semi, and 7,539 to the prelim

In 2012, CCM had 9,846 to the semi final, and 7,572 to the prelim.

In 2013 CCM had 10,651 to the semi.

This for a team that averaged 7713, 9607, and 9921 in those years respectively.

Personally, I don’t think the problem was ever with the previous finals system, but with the CCM supporter base, that has regularly failed to embrace the finals.

Can’t we at least give the top two a double chance of reaching the big game?

I have been somewhat dismissive of WSW since the idea was floated 12 months ago. I figured it would take them 5 seasons minimum to be successfull and build any sort of decent loyal supporter base, but I’ve been proven totally wrong.

WSW looked class last night, their success this season has been no fluke, and with that amazing support it is no wonder they are so hard to defeat at home.

Brisbane was pushing hard in the second half, but after 20 minutes the crowd really came to life and lifted their team, Ono scored only minutes latter.

The RBB have set a benchmark for every other supporter base to aspire too, and how could a neutral observer fail to be excited by the atmosphere that came through even on the TV. It must have been magic live.

Regardless of who they play and what happens next week, WSW are the success story of the A-League this year.

Pitty the off season will be over 5 months long. That sort of excitment needs to be fed regularly, and October is far too long to wait.

Well there’s my lead in the footy tipping comp gone!

My tip Brisbane 2 WSW 0. Nichols and Berisha the scorers. It’s 5.00pm, can’t wait for the game to start.Wish I could be there.

Fuss, I think your very valid point highlights something that those who advocate for the importance of finals don’t quite understand.

Every regular season match is important. The 3 points WSW got against CCM were no more important in their 3 point winning margin, than any of the 17 other victories they had all season. Likewise, the 3 points CCM lost were no more important than any of the other 4 gaes they lot.

Likewise, Perth reached the finals courtesy of an 8 goal bettergoal difference. They scored 12 goals less but Sydney gave away an astonshing 20 goals more. Every goal for and against is vital.

Wthout relegation and promotion, something I hope we do not see for along time, Finals are an important part of the season.

I think though that we should be doing more to promote the very real concept that every home and away match is more important thatn most realise,

“In Australia, it is about the grand final and, while we will certainly recognise the premiers, sport is all about seizing the moment and that is what the grand final is about,” – spoken like a true Rugby League man

Jb, yes being a fan is all about opinion. I love this sort of discussion though, it makes me analyse my own thoughts more fully while also exploring some one else’s point of view, even if I don’t agree at the time.

I guess we’ll agree to disagree on the strength of the current squad, and yes it is only a feeling on my part. I have no real evidence to back it up. Time will tell perhaps, though who knows what next season will bring for any team or player. This time last year, I still thought Ange would be coaching Roar.

Just on my point about keepers and defence, counter intuitive as it may seem, I don’t think a better defence necessarily means less chances for the opposition, rather that it makes the opposition more predictable. The keeper then has confidence that his decisions are more likely to be correct.

For example, an opposition player is in a position to shoot, but the defenders are not putting enough pressure on. The player has time to choose to shoot in any direction making the keepers job tougher. One of del Piero’s goals against Roar early in the season springs to mind.

Put just a little more pressure on, and the player may only have one direction to shoot, or will instinctively shoot the way he normally would, giving the keeper more confidence about which way to go. The goal mouth scramble against Adelaide last Sunday was a case in point. Theo pulled off a great reflex save, but it was made easier by him being instinctively aware of where any shot was likely to go (and being good enough to do it of course).

In both cases, there is a chance, but one is easier to save then the other. It’s not necessarily even a conscious thing by the keeper. Having played as a keeper at various points in time, and having seen this phenomenon on many occasions with different keepers and teams, it is the only logical reason I could ever come up with.

Starting line-up for Roar in the 2012 grand final for Roar was, Theo, Franjic, Adnan, Smith, Steffanutto, Paartalu, Nichols, Murdocca, Henrique, Broich, Berisha.

Starting line-up v Adelaide, Theo, Hingert, Donachie, North, Steff, Lustica, Nichols, Bratten, Franjic, Broich, and Berisha.

Any way you look at it, that’s half a team that wasn’t on the field this time last year.

I agree entirely that young or old, age is immaterial to quality. My point re age is that it is a youngish side that has and can still improve a lot, while I never had much belief that last years team could play much better.

I will take Bratten over Partaluu. Partaluu had a good season in 2011, but was not really good enough for most of 2012, and I was not sorry to see him go this season.

Donachie can learn to do more with the ball, but has really impressed me defensively. Maybe not as good as Adnan at his best, but more consistent.

North has added leadership at the back in a way that Smith has never really done, and Hingert is no slouch as a replacement for Franjic. (Bit of a headache for Mike when Smith is fit). I’ve often found a keepers form is directly proportional to his faith in his defence, and Theo’s form has increased dramatically.

Nichols has found consistency in the past few weeks, something that has eluded him for much of his career, and is probably playing as well as I have seen, though it’ll take another half a season of the same or better before I no longer worry every time I saw him walk on the park.

For me, moving Franjic forward has been the big plus. He always defended well and looked dangerous when he went forward, but as a midfielder just threatens so much more consistently up front than anyone else has done on that flank since Barbarouses left. Still more for him to learn there though which only excites me more.

I have said for 18 months that Broich needs another genuine threat coming from midfield to take some pressure off and give him just that little bit more room. I think Hingert combining with Franjic on the right has done just that. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Broich’s form started to improve at about the same time, and I repeat it’s a crucial blow to the balance of the squad come Friday night.

Lustica and Nijland, my understanding is they both might be at Roar next year. Both have potential. Nijland certainly impressed in his first appearance, but my feeling is he values his opinion more than the coach. Along with Halloran, they still have more to prove, but I’d be happy to see them all get the chance.

Overall then, I feel more confident in Roars defence, and more optimistic about their attack than this time last year, and I am not unhappy with the options on the bench.

I agree the depth of teams right across the A-League needs to improve, but I genuinely feel Roar currently have a squad that can.

An interesting argument jb. I think this years Roar has a much more youth focus with Hingert, Donachie, Bratten, Lustica and Halloran all 23 or younger, Nichols and Nijland at 24 and even Franjic only 25. With Murdocha and Henrique on the bench as well, I think there is plenty of depth in the side for the A-League.

I find it hard to believe but I actually feel this is now a better Roar team than last year. The side last year was less balanced than this, and the younger players are a year older and a year more experienced. Encouraging for next season then.

Broich has been outstanding in the past three weeks, and I think it is only reasonable that the team would drop once he went off. His efforts would have been literally inspirational to the younger players during the match. Not only then does Roar lose an outstanding player, but the on field example as well. There aren’t a whole lot of players at any club in the country who could fill in for a player of his quality in that sort of form.

As for the ACL, I wonder is it possible for any A-League club to have sufficient depth given the squad size and salary cap limitations? I don’t think any a-league squad has ever shown any great depth. CCM, and Roar perhaps, are the only team to have now consistently challenged at the top of the table for an extended period.

As already pointd out, the last result at Suncorp was 1-2.

Only time I’ve seen WSW live, and came away with the feeling that they were certainly a good side, but not that good that they should have beaten Roar 3 times in a year. That was in the second game of their unbeaten streak, and only a controversial goal gave them the win.

1-1 V Sydneyat home in the derby also suggests to me that they don’t have much left in the tank to step up in big games. Still yet to really find out of course.

Brisbane has been playing better and better every week, and the first half against Adelaide was as good as they’ve played since their first trophy winning season. It was only the forced injury changes that bought them down a peg.

It wil lbe intersting to see how they cover the loss fo Hingert. Could go a long way to determining the result.

If Roar can play like that again, I’m favouing an away win, but they are two of the best defensive teams in the comp. Looking for a tight game that willlikely finish 1-0 to one of the sides.

Interesting statement from De Bohun.

SBS ran a poll a couple of weeks ago about whether us punters thought the league or the GF was most important.

Didn’t see the final result, but it was split almost 50/50 but slightly favoured the league title when I voted. From memory there was about 1600 votes at the time.

Perhaps the FFA needs to get a little more in touch with the average football fan.

Sorry, I do not want this article to decend into a debate about the pros and cons of video replays and technology, but I would like to respond.

A link to the goal I am talking about. Vision starts at about 1:07.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0UKCyMuBjE

My problem with the decision lies with the following

“• “interfering with an opponent” means preventing an opponent from
playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s
line of vision or movements or making a gesture or movement which, in
the opinion of the referee, deceives or distracts an opponent”

My issue is that the offside player initially continues to run towards the ball. The Brisbane players all slow down expecting him to be called offside. In my opinion, he is interfering with an opponent by making a gesture or movement which decieves or distracts the opponent.

Regardless of my feelings on the matter though, I can see how it was interpreted differently. Same with the penalty decision in the 2012 Grand Final.

I can live with both those decisions going either way.

My point is that these are decisions that will still come down to personal interpretation, and no amount of technology will change that.

“Was it over the line” is about the only decision I’d like to see made by technology, and seriously, how many of them happen in a year anyway?

Offside is impractical.

While you might be able to identify situations that were offside, what about all the offside decisions given incorrectly that stop goals being scored in the first place? If you can’t stop bad calls preventing goals, why stop bad calls that give them?

Then you have situations like the WSW goal against Roar. Technically it might be argued that the player that scored was not offside, but to my way of thinking, the ball would never have been played where it was if the offside player wasn’t there, which means he had to be interfering with play.

That one goal had a huge bearing on the race for top spot, yet technology alone would never give you a definitve answer one way or the other.

Yes I must say I am gaining more and more respect for Edwards as a coach.

He seems to be doing the right thing with his players on the park, and his attitude off it is spot on.

I was also impressed by Ange’s coments on SBS last night. He refused to claim that his side was lucky, and that it was their application for the full 90 minutes that allowed them the opportunity to receive the penalty in the first place. There is a fair bit of truth and logic in this statement.

As with Roar’s win in the Grand Final, suggestions that Perth lost both simply because of a poor decision overlooks the fact that they were unable to stop the opposition from getting into their box in the first place.

As the saying goes, good teams make their own luck.