Martin just released a statement saying that he is simply looking at other offer, and hasn’t decided on his future.

“If Geelong can pull a Blicavs from obscurity, and has some skill why can’t Carlton?”

“Just pick great footballers, forget about athletes. They cannot do the basics.”

Blicavs was running steeplechase before he got picked up from the Cats, he was picked up purely for his athletic ability.

I will staunchly defend Tom Bell to the death, and he comes from Queensland.

Too right you are, my mistake about Jonas. I read that he was picked up in a draft this year and didn’t think anything more of it. Didn’t realise it was the rookie draft. Absolute break out year for him.

As for the duration of the mythical “window”, I only said that it’ll be open in 2-3 years, not how long it will be open for. I don’t think they will be there next year, they still have too big a gap to close against the top 4 sides. They can push for a home final next year, they won’t be top 4 though.

I agree Macca, the inability for Malthouse to give Bell and Graham chances in the firsts was insane, as well as relegating Watson to the VFL.

I believe that it was coupled with Malthouse’s persistence in using Kane Lucas and Josh Bootsma, both players have amazing potential but are not ready for AFL level football. Bootsma is far too small a body to tackle a serious key forward, as was shown throughout the year, and then there is Kane Lucas an outside running player with a lot of speed but poor disposal efficiency and cannot lay a tackle or protect a player to save his life.

Bell may also not have the greatest disposal efficiency, but his ability to protect his team mates, put his body on the line and tackle like a machine is second to none. If you want to see a great moment from Bell’s season, watch him lay the shepherd on Cotchin in the round 21 game. It was a thing of beauty.

Carlton was competitive but thats not good enough, against teams ranked 1-7, Carlton went 1-9 (or 1-7 if you exclude Essendon). That just simply isn’t good enough.

On trading the number 1 pick, I highly doubt Carlton will get it, however, what GWS need is a mature aged ruckman as Brogan and O’Hailpin got retired and delisted. I think they would be very keen on Warnock and something else, or potentially Hampson and a few other good players. I’d be loathe to let go of Duigan, as he proved in the few opportunities he can play hard at the ball, which I like to see players do. It does seem like he is on the outer at Carlton though, with the limited opportunities he was given last season. Laidler seems like he is on his way out. I could see Carlton doing Warnock, Laidler and a draft pick for Tom Boyd, but I don’t think it’s likely.

No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No.

Carlton do not want him, or need him, or anything. Not what we need at all. We’ve already had trouble with players who have a poor attitude, we do not need another.

Wrong.

In 2010 Carlton got into the finals with a record of 11-11.
In 2009 Essendon finished 8th with a record of 10-11-1

Do you understand how the legal system works?

Oh, it’s okay we can’t punish them now, their infringement happened the year before hand?

Carlton’s Salary cap breaches happened at the end of the 90’s, were you arguing that Carlton shouldn’t have been punished because they got caught in 2002?

Also, Adelaide’s deal with Kurt Tippet was struck several years ago and the deal had expired, guess that means Adelaide shouldn’t have been punished?

Well said Macca, a lot of arguments against Carlton are predicated on teams that finished bellow it being “better” than Carlton this season.

As you said, Unfortunately for the teams that finished bellow Carlton didn’t get the required results during the season. Carlton finished with 1 win more than North Melbourne, Brisbane and Adelaide. Seeing as win totals usually define ladder positioning, Carlton was the 8th best club in the competition.

We must remember that a season isn’t a sprint, it’s a marathon, it isn’t just won over individual weeks, it has to be a broader consistency over more games.

“The blues are there to make up the numbers”

You could apply this concept to pretty much any team that isn’t in the top 4. I mean, why have the top 8 system at all when every premiership has been won by a top 4 (actually top 3) club since the inception of the current final system.

Of all the clubs in the competition eligible for finals, Carlton finished 8th, not 9th.

I’ll draw a comparison to another example from the NRL.

In 2002, it was discovered that the Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs had breached the salary cap rules of the competition. At the time of the discovery, the Bulldogs were in a clear first place and ahead of second by 5 points (In league you get 2 points for a win, 1 for a draw) with 3 games left in the season. The NRL deducted 37 points from the Bulldogs, essentially reducing them from first to last. This enabled Canberra Raiders to finish 8th instead of 9th and played in the finals.

No one says that Canberra finished in 9th, because of all the eligible teams, Canberra was the 8th best team in the competition.

The same fact applies to Carlton’s season. Yes, they only finished 8th because Essendon was ineligible for the finals series, but it means that of all the eligible clubs Carlton was the 8th best.

I’m still of the belief that Carlton’s breakthrough finals victory against Essendon in 2011 was bigger.

First victory in a final in 10 years, against an old and bitter rival, massive pressure after having already been knocked out of the finals in the first round of the past two seasons, and having lost both from winning positions (especially against Brisbane).

That final was massive, we played so well in the first quarter only to fall 5 goals behind very quickly. The team re-grouped and pegged it back before eventually steam rolling Essendon and setting up a massive victory, which certainly took a lot of heat off Brett Ratten.

Sorry Cameron, but there is actually no proof of the upset winners have less chance. Obviously the underdog team got up a in a selection of the 2 following ways.

1. They played better than their opponents during the match

and/or

2. Their opponents played so badly that they lost the game.

If it’s the first way, what is to say that the underdog cannot replicate their game against the better club, and if they do and still lose, what chance did the side they beat really have against the club anyway.

If it’s the second option, whats to say that the club that played terribly wouldn’t have replicated their poor performance the week after.

Lets take your example of Tommy Robredo going against Federer and Nadal. Assuming that Robredo outplayed Federer, whats to say that he couldn’t have outplayed Nadal? and if he played at the same level against Nadal, and got thumped, whats to say that Federer wouldn’t have had it worse. Or if Federer had a bad game against Robredo, what if he had played better and won and then he could have just as easily gone out and played worse against Nadal and got beaten worse than Robredo did.

What your complaining about is one of the best parts about sport, the unpredictable human nature of sport where the best team doesn’t always win. The long term has no effect on a week to week basis and the concept that an upset one week effects long term balance is utterly ridiculous.

I’m not saying that the three are on the same level, but even the best players in the game (ala Ablett, Swan, Pendlebury, Watson, Judd, Selwood… etc etc) are capable of having one bad game, that does not mean the baby must be thrown out with the bath water.

“Bargain basement sale of those players for Hardwick, or he’ll be holidaying in September in 2014.”

– Seems to suggest you are up for a thorough list change.

As opposed to taking this game for what it was, take what they achieved over the season instead. They racked up important and impressive wins against quality opposition and managed to win through to the end. I was incredibly impressed with Richmond’s season this year, while they started strong my impression was that they were going to fade late in the season as they usually do. However, they proved me wrong and ended up finishing in a respectable 5th.

Sorry, I assumed that the shock was in relation to Richmond losing in general, it seemed like a majority of people had decided that this game was sown up for the Tigers before the ball was bounced. I saw your tip before the game having Richmond winning, but I’ll concede it did only have a 5 point margin next to it.

It was also at people in general who are so surprised by the result considering the fact that Carlton had beaten them three weeks ago, and Richmond’s victory in Round 1 was far from convincing.

That comment is completely reactionary and will drag the Tigers backwards. The Tigers list is at a good age to threaten but many of their good up and coming players are still young. Vlastuin just finished his first season and Ellis and Morris have just finished their second. Deledio, Cotchin and Martin are still young and will hopefully get better. The Tigers have a real chance at the Flag in the next few years IF they continue to develop along the path that they have been and continue to recruit players as well as they have been (it’ll get harder due to later draft picks).

This was the first time the Tigers have been in the finals since 2001, and only 5 members had played finals football, all of them at different clubs. On the other side of the match, Carlton had a side with several players who had played finals football, while Carlton had a disappointing season, they did manage to finish in the top 8 the three seasons before that, and it wasn’t until their 3rd final that they got a win.

Richmonds most experienced finals player was Troy Chaplain with 5 prior to todays game, compared to Judd who has played in 13 finals over his career.

Riewoldt got beaten by Jamison, as he regularly has, but the idea that he isn’t one of the games best full forwards is insane. Vickery and Maric also got beaten, so what it’s one game, there have been several games that they dominated in. Gary Ablett is one of the best players in the game, you don’t think he’s ever had a bad game?

Hear this, IF the Tigers do what you are suggesting and sell off their players, like you called for in your other comment, they won’t reappear in finals. However, if they keep this list and continue to develop it, barring uncontrollable circumstances they will be a feature of the finals for the next few years to come.

I can’t believe the amount of people calling this a “shock”.

Three weeks ago the two teams played and Carlton beat them, Richmond were also playing their first finals and the only players in their side that had played finals had done so for other clubs.

Consolation for Tigers fans is that it got some much needed finals experience into what is still a young Tigers outfit

The only way this is now possible is if the Cats lose to Freo in Geelong and then Sydney beats Freo in Perth (after beating Carlton or Richmond) and Geelong beats Hawthorn (continuing the Curse) after beating Port or Collingwood.

Hindsight is 20/20, but still, you put yourself out there saying that Hawks were going to lose to Sydney.

Yes, but the argument doesn’t work in the case of Malthouse at Carlton.

Many Carlton fans were lead to believe that Ratten was an obstacle to winning a premiership, because many felt that he wasn’t capable of taking the club to that level of success (I disagree with the assessment, but we probably won’t find out whether he was capable or not now). Meaning that the belief was that the list was fine, and it was just the coach.

The belief was very much that replacing Ratten with a coach who was capable (meaning they had done it before) of delivering a Premiership.

I don’t think it’s fair to judge the two coaches head to head, after all, I don’t think anyone could successfully argue that Malthouse’s results at Carlton were better than Hinkley’s at Port as without taking any other factors, Port finished ahead of Carlton with more wins for the season.

Consider the following factors as to why Carlton’s list has to be considered close to one of the best in the competition. Merely 2 years ago, Carlton was outright 5th on the ladder, and it’s biggest criticisms was no key forward (Waite spent a large amount of time on the sidelines for various reasons, same with Kreuzer), and couldn’t beat a Top 4 side. The next season, Carlton won it’s first 3 games of the season, including a convincing 10 goal victory over Collingwood. However, the next week is when the wheels came off the wagon. Early in round 4 against Essendon, Carazzo (at that time Carlton’s shut down player, who was in top form having shut down Pendlebury to 15 touches while racking 29 possessions and a goal).

Without looking at that effect on games in past the Essendon one with the loss of Carazzo alone. For the match against Essendon, Carazzo was going against Stanton. Carazzo was subbed out in the first quarter, Stanton got 36 possessions, took 17 marks, had 5 inside 50s and kicked a goal. A few games later, Carlton lost one of it’s best midfielders in Marc Murphy in a collision with Patrick Dangerfield.

I’m not saying Carlton was a shoe in for top 4, but there was enough evidence before injuries to key players derailed Carlton’s 2012 campaign to suggest that they were capable of improving on it’s 2011 record, in which it came 5th. Then at the start of this season, a few players that had earned spots in the Carlton side, found themselves playing VFL football (Duigan, Laidler, Bell). While players who still require time to develop, such as Bootsma and Lucas, were given regular starting positions.

Sorry Tom, but the judgement on which coach is better isn’t based on their head to head record, which Malthouse leads Hinkley 2-0. It’s about the fact that Hinkley, over the course of the season turned a previously average side into one that came in 7th after becoming a very difficult to beat team at AAMI Park. Carlton, looked very good, at stages throughout the year but Malthouse was unable to take a decent list and actually pull anything with them.

I wasn’t actually making a comparison between Malthouse and Hinkley as individual coaches, it was more a commentary of how and why the respective clubs picked them.

Malthouse was supposed to be the saviour at Carlton, a Premiership coach to win a Premiership. As I said in the article, a single season is too quick to judge, but Carlton axed Ratten on the back of 1 poor season which was crippled with injuries. At the same time, Malthouse has undoubtedly had a better run with injuries this season and has performed worse. The arguments put against Ratten last year was that he wasn’t capable of winning a Premiership, because he wasn’t a Premiership coach.

Hinkley, on the other hand, was picked from obscurity, and don’t be surprised to see Hinkley leading the Power to becoming a contender in the next few years.

As for Carlton’s list being over-rated, take a look at the lists it has had over the last few seasons. Carlton was right to push for top 4 last season, with a very similar list to this years. In 2012, the following players played 16 games or less, Murphy (16), Walker (15), Laidler (4), Henderson (11), Waite (11), Duigan (16), Jamison (16), Carazzo (14). That is quiet a few key players in Carlton’s midfield and defence. Murphy and Carazzo both had long term injuries, coming off their best seasons the year before. Duigan and Laidler were both important to the Carlton defence, not to mention the important role that Jamison plays week in week out taking the opponents no 1 big forward.

In 2011 Carlton had a very good run injury wise, with only a few injuries coming to players at the end of the year, and they did well against West Coast in the West. Then 2012 they were hampered by injuries. This year, once again they have had a pretty remarkable run with injuries and they have gone backwards. Malthouse was promised to the Carlton faithful as a silver bullet, all I’m doing in this article is saying that it was a lie.

At the moment it’s hard to see any coach making Melbourne a better team, and I say that with no happyness as well. Even though I’m a Carlton Supporter, there will always be a place in my heart for a competitive Melbourne Football Club.

Melbourne should eventually reach that point naturally with many of their young players developing naturally. Hopefully with a fully fit Dawes, Hogan, Clark, Viney, Frawley, Jones and Trengrove. As well as more time and development invested in the players coming up like Toumpas, Terlich, Watts and Blease, Melbourne can raise itself out of the doldrums.

The description of tanking should be when a team manipulates the result of the game (intentionally loses) for benefits, such as better placement for draft picks, better draw in the following season, financial reasons (match fixing).

A team should be allowed to rest players, because Freo doesn’t get anything out of the loss, and it means fans have the opportunity to see stars that aren’t carrying a season’s worth of bumps and bruises coming at the pointy end of the season. This is especially so as Freo have earned the right to be comfortable in their position by winning enough games earlier. If Freo needed to win that game for a top 4 I’m sure Lyon wouldn’t have rested the stars.

Power have Schulz

Carlton could have a number of “power forwards” – Waite creates a contest when he’s actually playing, but other Carlton big forwards need time to develop, as they are still young. These include Casboult and Rowe. While not as good as some of the other names, you need time for the bodies to develop.

You’re right, it is hypothetically possible.

It is incredibly difficult and will not happen this year.

As people have identified, teams ranked 5-8 have beaten teams in the top 4 this year. The difference is it isn’t just that they have to do it once, but for 2-3 weeks in a row they will face top 4 teams away from home. Producing results aren’t impossible but are difficult for teams to do. Even Collingwood, who has beaten Geelong this year isn’t capable of pulling off three victories in a row.

2009 – Geelong had Cam Mooney and Tom Hawkins
2010 – Collingwood had Travis Cloke and Chris Dawes

Sydney is the only exception to this rule, mainly because they had an entire game style built on the slingshot system which relied on leg speed to catch the Hawks on the break.