The most recent SURVEY stats. Again, indicative only – the absolute numbers – but, the ratios and trends over time are interesting.

For ratios, you note, the Aust Footy vs Soccer for example, Soccer 160,500 more participants – 68,400 of those females. That’s fine.

In the age sectors,
Aust Footy has 156,100 in 15-24, v Soccer 201,700.
Soccer dominates over age of 35 – with 91,700 vs 35,500.
In the middle soccer wins clearly too, 25-34, by almost 60,000.

The regularity – soccer has 44% in the 26 times or less vs Aust Footy 40%
Aust Footy has 34% in the 53+ compared to soccer 29%.

In org vs non org,
Soccer 64% org only, Aust Footy 83% org only.
Soccer 28% non org only, vs Aust Footy 14%.

What is clear head to head, soccer is MORE likely to be played in a non-organised, less regular capacity, and more likely to be played by older folk.

Mate, as per the other thread,

you quoted Katie Page’s 2009 remuneration, Demetriou at that time was around $1.4 million (inc bonus’s). What is Katie Page’s current return? what is her bonus structure like? did she get a fist full of shares and/or options?

And how is it relevant?

and along with that, back in 2008, just after the FFA (with Govt funding for operational expenditures) poached AFL 2IC Ben Buckley – he was getting reportedly $850,000. Compare the annual turn over of the FFA in 2008 with the AFL and tell me which of messers Demetriou and Buckley was being over paid???

Heck, look at the much lower turn over of the ARU and in 2008 John O’Neill was getting $840,000, although, with the poor performance highlighted in the 2009 annual report, O’Neill took less than $700,000 for 2009. However, we know that O’Neill coming back to the ARU was part of the malaise of market forces after he’d been poached by the FFA.

Fussball –

anyone, and I mean anyone involved even in local sports, knows that the administrators have a major off season job. That the ‘in season’ component of the AFL may ‘only’ be over 6 months, although, these days, mid Feb through to end Septmeber is clearly 7.5 months – – so your maths is pretty flawed (but, being a soccer fan, I recognise that you get dizzy with numbers bigger than 0s and 1s).

Let alone that I could contest your ‘one product’ notion. ANd if the AFL has only minor operations in Adelaide and Perth, then, how the heck do you rate any of the operations of the FFA?? Buckley should be giving money back!!!!

Moonface –

it’s about people getting it right, alas, we’ve seen people on other threads link to the articles the day the story broke, and totally ignoring where the story then progressed as more and correct information came to light.

that, and allowing natural justice to play out.

You are seemingly the anti-AFL hanging judge. Forgive me for not taking you seriously.

Kasey –

It was the post I replied to (ASanchez) that spoke of “that the A-league despite all the hoopla in the media, is on an upward trend.”

doubling the number of games to achieve pretty well similar aggregates is NOT a good business model.

No matter how you look at it. But especially when the costs have been increasing. And the obvious outcome is that the FFA can’t afford to prop up a club like the Fury. Now, we wait and see – – I’d suggest the FFA needs’ to tred water with the HAL for about 3 years, 10 teams. TIght structure. Get the financials working better and bed down the business model. Who knows. Everyone has an opinion (‘cos it’s so mainstream now!).

SO, that’s what’s been done to get over a million attendees. ASanchez claimed the article clearly showed reasons to be optimistic. The aggregates I thought showed reasons to be REALISTIC (not pessimistic, I haven’t suggested that – – I’m simply suggesting that people need to …… curb their enthusiasm!!)

Fussball –

technical aspects?? where did I discuss that. You’ve only responded to my ‘btw’ comment in which I more discussed the junior to senior progression of tennis and cricket.

Take a chill pill and don’t be so argumentative.

Fussball –

what’s Ben Buckley’s salary?

Back in 2008, not long after the Govt funded FFA poached AFL 2IC Ben Buckley, it was believed that Buckley was on about $850,000 a year. Demetriou at that time nudged up to $1.4 million including bonuses.

Now, the AFL actually makes a profit and has been running record numbers the last 3 or 4 years for attendances and revenues and hasn’t rolled over any clubs in that time.

I would like you to go hunt down the ever so transparent FFA’s annual report and tell us what Buckley and the key exec’s are being paid compared to the average squad member.

What’s Katie Page got to do with it?? In 2008 Demetriou got $1.4 mill including bonuses. How much did Gerry Harvey scoop off the top of H-N for his personal fortune? The AFL I-C doesn’t scoop off the top.

the irony of this is that Flanagan has ignored that so many of AFL’s recruits get cut after just 2 years or so, quite often, becuase the clubs ARE forced to by the AFL’s draft system.

One of the greatest impacts of the Suns and Giants so far, is the ‘mature age recruit’ returning to some degree of favour. Guys who just were not ready or who had a shocking run with injuries (often because they just were not ready) around the age of 19-20.

There is talent there – – Michael Barlow more than any proved that. The AFL competition is often characterised by a heap of ‘sepculative’ players running around who might struggle to get a game in a more ‘adult’ footy environment, when you see a team with an average aged of 23. Where are the experienced campaigners? Already sent to the scrap heap.

So, unlike Flanagan – I celebrate that the 2 new clubs will actually provide, for a time, greater value to players careers (alas though, some clubs, such as Melbourne, completely butchered their list a couple of years back so as to bottom out and load up on kids before the Suns/Giants compromised drafts – and so solid performers like Robbo, Whelan, Brown all got cut perhaps prematurely).

Anyway – I’ll be cheering on Daniel Harris when he plays his 150th and celebrate that he’s been able to have that opportunity.

(and keeping an eye on the talent pool building up across PNG, Fiji, Tonga, Sth Africa and the AFL’s speculative move into the US ‘athletic reject’ market!!).

and it also illustrates that the wealthiest club in the land is the one that can most afford to take on such a project player.

It’s the sort of experimentation that most clubs can’t really afford.

There’s still a long, long way from a NAB cup game doing half okay to actually making and doing well in a regular season game.

So, a long way from the ‘elite level’. Let alone, performing TO an ‘elite level’. Basically McNamara is presently fling a Tiger Moth trainer, he’s a long, long way from SuperHornets, but, he’s handling his Tiger Moth better than expected.

It’s a really ordinary article,

it’s poorly constructed, it’s poorly supported,

it’s pretty inflammatory,

the auther has done a runner thus far which is even more damning,

it’s pretty average all ’round.

The annoying anti-AFL aspect is that the author is smashing the AFL at one point, because it didn’t roll over for the really ordinary FFA WC bid – – and yet the author ignores the NRL’s complicit role in the exercise, given the NRL very publicly voiced disapproval and the NRL actually DID have the opportunity (before the Govt took over) to recieve and reject the FFA’s proposals for the NRL to work around a WC.

The author bashes the AFL for not being more accomodating to the other codes, and yet, we’ve so often seen the AFL, during it’s period of exclusivity (lease conditions) at the MCG or Docklands, allow other codes access during the season and NOT complained about the surface conditions afterwards (only after concerts!!). We’ve often seen AFL at Docklands Friday and Sunday and RL or RU on Saturday – the stadium turns it around real quick. ANd yet, when the AFL asked on behalf of the GAA whether there was a possibility of a match in Sydney of the ‘Mickey Mouse’ international Rules, the NRL/ARL jumped up and down whinging about raining on their parade because it would be a day or two before the kick off of the RL WC. Strange, the RU people didn’t whine when we had a brilliant festival atmosphere in Melb in Oct 2003 with the Aust v Ireland IR game at the ‘G, and Aust v Ireland RUWC match at the ‘dome …..all during Spring Racing carnival and the VRC didn’t whinge either, and heaps of people went everywhere……in Melbourne.

The author DOES recognise the association of the Sydney Swans with the Swifts netball team, and if he looked further afield he’d see that footy and netball have many partnerships across the country (however I gain the impression the auther really only sees a very narrow focus of Sydney issues). And, so, even on the Sydney only front –
the AFL has been a valuable partner with Cricket (NSW). No mention of that. Apparently the author only want’s to recognise rolling over for direct competitors rather than working in logical partnerships. Does the author realise that AFL doesn’t fit logically with the square ended codes??
the AFL has also become a valuable partner with the RAS with respect to the Showgrounds upgrade. I know the RAS is not a sporting body.
the AFL has won NSW Govt multicultural awards in the past – illustrating being a valuable community focus. Surely not a bad thing.

The auther of the article needs to open his mind a little more. And the author really should post links to his claimed comments by Demetriou, otherwise there’s a massive lack of credibility (already, but, compounded!!).

trending upward??

isn’t this where expectations have to be measured. Even Buckley referenced the MLS and J-League for his justification of the restructuring (around Fury being dumped). The trending presently for the A-League has been downward, and it’s hard graft even to steady the ship.

The author of the article blithely stating the crowd aggregates is a bit naive. The cost to service each attendee is up because you’ve moved from 84 H&A games (8 teams each playing 21 matches) to 165 H&A games (each of 11 teams playing 30 matches).

It doesn’t take a financial genious to recognise that the following table actually illustrates what’s wrong with the A-League and what has cost the Fury and thus far cost the potential West Sydney whatevers.
[06/07: 1,085,829; (8 teams, smaller squads, no W-League or NYL, 84 games) – – – costs as low as possible.
07/08: 1,227,853;
08/09: 1,023,147;
09/10: 1,329,779;
10/11: 1,384,857] (11 teams, bigger squads, W-League, NYL, 165 games) – – – costs far greater, crowd averages falling in a heap, even for MVFC, profit margins gutted because, an increase in crowd aggregate of 157,000 from 2007/08 is pretty hollow when it’s taken an extra 81 matches to achieve that……those extra 81 matches have brought on average LESS than 2000 extra bums on seats each.

My estimation of this is that the hard yards are now, the trending is NOT in the right direction, and there’s a LOT of hard work to do to make sure it doesn’t all implode.

btw – U19s are only so good a measure, just ask Australia’s many boys and girls tennis champs who haven’t kicked on, or even over the years there’s been a massive different b/w performances in U19 cricket World Cup events compared to the open age. Whether it’s just a ‘peaked too soon’ thing, or whether the gap b/w talented juniors and hardened professionals is bigger than some people percieve??

Thom_Canberra

I’m still waiting for you to point out where Andrew Demetriou stated “Soccer will kill your sport (AFL)”

(If I google I can find some dimwitted SBS fellow named Matthew Hall who states “Soccer, he sermonised to AFL fans, wants to KILL YOUR SPORT.”,…..dating back to the miserable FFA WC bid back in 2009 when mis-representation of AFL people and positions by the pro-soccer army was running rife.

Or, do you have a real quote and reference? Not just a made up one from a droober on SBS’s website??

really??

it never occurred to you that it was a bit tongue in cheek,

that, perhaps you ought have taken it with a tinge of humour???

no?

still not seeing the tongue in cheek element?

still desperate for a reason to hate and dismiss?

Who really is the ‘zealot’ here??

They’ll probably peak between rounds 4-8, and after that, the depth of experience (or lack of) will start to tell with injuries, and young kids inconsistancies and as the season pushes on they’ll tire and get smacked badly in the last month of the season.

That’s my prediction.

sheek –

my perspective is to look at Ashley Cole in the UK, shoots a guy with a gun taken to training, and his club fines him 2 weeks pay……..$400,000.

That to me is perspective enough that we haven’t entirely lost our perspective in Australia!!!!

The reality of the AFL as an example is that CEO’s and top admin executives operate in a vastly more global employment market than do the AFL players themselves. Elements of that, sadly, can’t be ignored.

I’m generally the first to jump up and down about way over the top executive pays – – however, in this microcosm, I can fully understand that the AFL commission do NOT want to lose a fellow like Demetriou, especially after the Buckley/O’Neill situations. There’s way, way too much sensitive strategic information doing the rounds at all the HQ’s of all the codes.

Is this an end to dots on a map expansion strategy??

Or a recognition that just because there’s an NRL team and a bastketball team, doesn’t mean there’s room for an aggressive expansionist interloper.

The FFA have a hard dose of reality of a super competitive marketplace.

hmm, no need for code wars, but, hey look at my massive anti AFL article!!!

please point out where Demetriou utter the words you’ve attributed to him.

the impression I got on that was the proposal was a ‘threat’ to leverage better deals at Etihad and the ‘G. The AFL seemingly weren’t overly interested, and when the FFA mentioned it during their WC bid, it seemed as though it was a dead horse already.

alas Mark, economy of scale doesn’t always work that way. The 2 most expensive stadia to play at for AFL clubs are the MCG and Docklands.

Geelong can make more money at Skilled with 24,000 than they can at the ‘G with 55,000.

North have hosted the Swans at Etihad and lost $1000 (not much, but) compared to Geelong clearing $600,000 at Skilled for a 24,000 crowd.

Where’s the equity??

The main options outside of Princes Park have been the Showgrounds or the ‘E-Gate’ one that the FFA made resurface during their flawed WC bid.

The main thing is, in 15 years, the AFL takes over Etihad, lock, stock etc.

McNamara also very much enjoyed soccer and was good at that – so, a combo of soccer & basketball helps immensely,……yet again.

Being 203 or so cm’s tall don’t hurt either.

The AFL and America – I’m not sure what the ‘chucklers’ are chuckling about. The AFL has a very specific strategic interest, unlike soccer which still thinks it can knock off the NFL and NBA and NHL and MLB.

sheek –

when you talk about messers Demetriou and O’Neill,

keep mindful ‘market forces’,

keep mindful that the Govt funded FFA has ALREADY poached O’Neill in the past, and still has the poached former 2IC at the AFL in Ben Buckley at the helm.

Market forces therefore dictate that a CEO and top execs are paid not just on what they are worth to keep, but, on what it is worth to NOT lose them.

Simple as that.

– – – and the players,…..well, as stand alone players they are nothing, but, as members of clubs in a league with clubs dating back 150 years – – they are something.

The league and the clubs are bigger than the players.

ah don’t worry, I wasn’t missing the point, surely you noted the emoticontamination of my post – twas but in jest.

Agreed the bid was not the greatest scandal – – however, the guilt by association with the corrupt FIFA process is evident.

The greatest scandal in the history of this country (sports wise),

administratively – – – the Melb Storm scandal??

on the field – – – Greg Chappell’s stinking under arms

re the bookies – – – that Fine Cotton affair?

I dunno, there’s been scandals.

back to the bid – the scandal is the untold story of why the FFA made it pretty well impossible for all of Australia to support the bid. The full story will come out some day we hope, because I think we’re all curious.

Might have to start reminding everyone of this everytime this story is talked about –

the girl admitted to NOT conversing with the players at the school visit. Did she make a big impression?? Was she pursuing the players based on a wink and a smile?

Well, she pursued them to Sydney, and introduced herself at a night club up there post match as a 19 yr old AIS athlete from Canberra.

So, I’m just curious about at what point the players were guilty of anything wrong up to that point.

After that, I reckon it all comes down to how any individuals might have to work through a web of deceipt and misfortune.

The deception of misrepresentation and the misfortune of pregnancy…….and whether those two were even more blurred or not.

Just what the AFL is supposed to do under those circumstances I’m not really sure. Alas, the way the story has progressed is not real good for anyone. But, I’m still not too sure what the AFL was supposed to do at the outset?? The AFL run a footy competition, not a family planning clinic or a civil court or social conselling service…….they can refer people though.

Agreed – personally I don’t see this particular leopard changing his spots.

No doubt, over the journey, a few ego driven or well intentioned coaches have thought they might be the one to straighten him out.

Look at a guy like Martin Pyke who got the boot from Fitzroy and Melbourne, and Denis Pagan got him to North, he straightened a bit, enough to get a single premiership in 1999 with us, alas, pretty soon after that it went sour but Brisbane then picked him up, straightened him some more and he help with 3 more premierships,

perhaps he’s in part been Voss’s inspiration for trying to straighten ‘the Fev’.

Mark –

like a lot of things, when you get to a certain level the performance envelope get’s very specific, standing still is going backwards, and sometimes NOT doing something will be far, far worse than doing it.

5 years vs 50 years……if the AFL doesn’t try. You can’t just ignore half the country. And no doubt the NRL is trying to figure how it can get more than 1 team into the other half of the country, let alone any market in the other half of the country with a 2 team presence (as the AFL at the completion of this exercise with have a minimum 2 team presence in each of the 5 mainland states).

did you read Wilsons article properly?

She ignored that the girl chased the lads to Sydney and that she admitted to masquerading as a 19yr old from the AIS. At what point did she come clean about being only 16.

And Wilson picked on the AFL way of doing things, and reckons it’s 10 years behind the NRL……..and the irony of that, is that the AFL structure puts Andrew Demetriou reporting as CEO to an independant commission,…..something the NRL is moving towards and is about 20 odd years behind the AFL on.

Why I’m pointing this out is that you as an underinformed person on the subject of the article find yourself nodding along in agreement with Wilson. Whereas someone with half an idea can poke massive holes in her article.

Does that make you realise, that in ALL cases, Wilson is a lowest common denominator opinionist.

A bit a ‘they’ person.

The old, “Why don’t they just’, or, ‘they shoudl do this’………does she realise who the ‘they’ are? and does she understand the dynamic ‘they’ operate in? ……perhaps not, given he ‘partner’ ia s big News Ltd boss and ‘they’ don’t seem to follow anybodies rules!!!!!!

(you have permission to chuckle at this point as I make myself a ‘they’ person too!).

jamesb and jake,

as I indicated, Jake posting the link dated May 26 needs to follow the story a little more closely,

y’see, by May 27, we get this from theAge
Schoolgirl sex: St Kilda players cleared ,

TWO St Kilda footballers accused of having sex with a 16-year-old schoolgirl who became pregnant were yesterday cleared by police and the AFL of any wrongdoing.

And AFL fears that the players had abused their position during a school community camp visit were alleviated when it became clear the pair had not spoken with the girl in any meaningful way during the visit.

The Saints visited the girl’s Frankston high school in February as part of the club’s community camp initiative. Police and the AFL interviewed the girl, a Year 12 student, yesterday. She said she had not met the players until late March in a Sydney nightclub after the Saints’ round-one victory against the Swans.

She said the relationship between her and the players was consensual. She was also questioned by police regarding her relationship with a young Collingwood player. The St Kilda footballers became implicated when the girl reported her pregnancy to her school principal.

and further
The teenage student yesterday told the AFL that she did not converse with the players during their school visit but that she had been introduced to them for the first time after the Sydney game and continued the relationship in Melbourne.

The girl told police and the AFL that she had told them that she was from the Australian Institute of Sport in Canberra and that she was 19. The players told the AFL they had no idea she was a high school student, or that she was so young.

So, let’s be clear on this, let’s all get on the same page with respect to this story.

Because, sadly, there’s too many people running around half cocked who don’t understand where the story actually progressed,…….in essence, you guys have done a ‘Costello’.