btw –

people still conveniently forget, an AFL game runs for 120 mins of ‘game time’ whilst an NRL game is 80 mins of ‘game time’.

That gives the AFL an extra 40 mins, or, half a game of game time.

Head to head, the NRL provides 640 mins worth of game time each week. The AFL provides 960 mins presently.

The NRL it remains to be seen what might happen around splitting of the product, and selling finals separately, selling the SoO separately and things like that. One might suggest that in the interim, a Ch.10 might be more willing to dip the toe in the water via claiming the SoO stand alone as that does rate a bit outside of NSW and QLD. Ch.9 of course wouldn’t be happy, because, during the 6 wk period of SoO, the NRL regular season is reduced both actually, via weeks with multiple byes, and realistically, with the focus on SoO the club comp crowds and ratings fall away.

get Melbourne and Essendon and even North on the right day and they’d be a chance.

Like so much, the match up on a given week – – taking into account injuries, and where a club is in it’s training regime.

The Suns though are unlikely to pick up late season wins as the kids will most likely be really tiring.

They’ll also struggle for successive wins with so many kids on board.

Boomshanka –

the NRL benefits generally in Melbourne by running it’s GF the week after the AFL GF.

It normally doesn’t really need or warrant promotion.

Mainly because, – if people aren’t committed with end of season trips/or first footy free weekend weddings etc etc – – then, the sporting vacuum that has suddenly dawned means many people will watch it ‘cos it’s on. And the Melb Storm playing in many of them has helped greatly over the years. And the later timeslot in the day means that it’s harder for people to avoid, if that makes sense.

2010 though, Storm not there, the brand (NRL and Storm) had lost credibility, and the AFL GF Grand Final replay where……..the two biggest talking points were the logic of a replay, and the logic of Lionel Richie.

Lionel Richie came out a definite winner.

(the AFL into NRL markets always has a big ask though to draw afternoon ratings/viewers given obviously the afternoon timeslot and that it’s NRL prelim final weekend….i.e. no sporting vacuum because, in both codes, prelim final weekend is huge because it kicks off the week long run into the GF)

Those who feel there’s little growth opportunity,

need to keep mindful of the following :

• from 2012 onwards, 2 teams in each of NSW and QLD. (inclusive of one game per week extra into the market, such that each week, other than local derby weeks – there will be one locally relevant match that is NOT up against the local gate)

• 2 local derbies each year in each of NSW and QLD.

• The I.Folau and K.Hunt factors…..X factors

• An extra match per round across the board

• potentially a 24 round season with reduced NAB cup

• the recently established Foxtel Cup (a 2nd tier knockout competition – – very much driven it seems by……Foxtel)

the AFL hasn’t become quite as pliable as the NRL has around picking the games 6 weeks out and broadcasters effectively controlling the fixturing. The irony is as the NRL has started to regard club members more highly – – that value proposition actually conflicts with a too fluid fixturing policy. However, if we see more flex on Friday nights, and I gather ch.9 has been pushing for Monday night AFL (I presume so they could balance their national programming by running Monday night NRL in 1/2 the country and Monday night AFL in the other half….but the AFL still runs a bit longer but less of an issue after 10.30 having locally distinct programming than it is right through Monday night prime time).

and after all that, as Eddie McGuire pointed out a couple of years back – – the AFL would probably get MORE if they reduced the FTA stipulations in northern markets. And this is where we all sit and ponder, why isn’t it just fine for the Sat night AFL on Ch.10 to be run exclusively on 1HD whilst the 10 main channel can run Back to the Future III and Spies Like Us. But also, don’t forget, it’s not all cash. There’s the contra components related to promotion/programming, and there we know that ch.10 get’s good value from Before the Game and things like that, and Ch.9 last year was running extra AFL shows including the TAC future stars…..and that was without Ch.9 having an AFL broadcasting contract.

What is clear presently – – is everyone is playing high stakes poker. It’s a bit like the lead in to the WC bid. The predictions of X number of votes secured proved to be very, very premature. Roy Masters may yet look like an oracle or, may yet look like Frank Lowy…….

We used to have Foxtel, back in the FoxFooty channel days. We let it slide – – it was too much outlay for too little and club membership was a preferred priority.

However, going forward, Foxtel might be on the verge of tipping the balance. Whether at the expense of higher level club memberships?? perhaps not. But, I’m certainly now sniffing the breeze so to speak.

Foxtel’s investment if ramped up I might suggest might pay off in spades,

and the AFL’s investment in K.Hunt and I.Folau may yet pay off even more in spades.

btw – when the Age link is just another Roy Masters attempted hatchet job on the AFL,…….like the many he’s put out there, all the time trying to inflate the NRL in the public domain……..well,……

What came first?

the sad fact seems that colonial era ‘separations’ still seem to apply. That 1860s-1870s rivalry such as between Melb and Syd still exists.

And sport is but an ongoing reflection of that rivalry.

The oddity, is, rather than a massive competition of city based clubs – it’s embodiement is a massive competition of city based leagues of different codes of football.

And if that means that a 3rd or 4th code sitting off to the side is seen as a bit of a luxury, and that support for the ‘rep team’ of a minority sport if no Olympic medal is on the line might well be optional.

In my case, Kiwi wife, and I hope for her parents the A-B’s win – – -it’ll make them happy and I really, really don’t care (enough) to wish them to NOT be happy. Does that mean I’m hoping the Wallabies lose…….

I must admit I was wondering that too (re Australian Football).

Glad the name is seemingly being used appropriately though,

not sure what Geoff Dixon at Qantas would think though..

btw = Tristan, you’re doing a great job. Keep it up.

hear what we want to hear and then mull over it after the event.

Trying to look very smart after the fact!!!

Isn’t that what these forums are all about???

btw – the hear what you want to hear WAS so true through the WC bid process. boy was it true.

so, can we trade off Roy Masters and Caroline Wilson as both being a waste of space, and chuck in Craig Foster and we’ll all ignore them??

however, the Colin Love quote still holds.

And yes – we do agree about the RL and AFL and their respective and collaborative stances against the FFA WC bid. I haven’t been talking about that since the first post.

I’m in no way trying to assert the AFL as being beyond reproach. Far from it. However, I’m not going to have people attacking the AFL as though their codes are beyond reproach.

The very nature of the Australian sports market – and football in particular – makes it the most competitive one in the world. Standing still is not an option.

Is the AFL move into Sydney about toppling the NRL?? I doubt it. Just as much as I doubt the NRL would be thinking the Storm could topple the AFL. The home markets of the two codes are pretty safe.

The AFL – of course it’s a marketing exercise. And an expansion process. And a consolidation process. All of the above. It’s multi faceted and there’s elements you don’t like. That’s fine. Y’can’t please everyone all the time.

I wonder if there’ll be big difference in how News Ltd cover this compared to Fairfax??

Andrew Demetriou is CEO of the AFL, unlike the FFA, it pays it’s way and has much larger revenue streams.

It is a job that requires the management of complex issues.

It is a position that can not simply join in a global bandwagon piggy backing off arguably the worlds biggest regular sporting contest (the FIFA WC and qualifiers), and is under constant attack from the gold medal counters,

it is a position that can’t rely on wave after wave of code specific literate and likely playing able and supporting able immigrants. A concern that Buckley will never confront (whilst at the FFA).

Katie Page is irrelevant – – – different industry, is she a personal friend or why did you pick her (at random)??

orlac –

ask Frank Lowy how good Andrew Demetriou is.

Bondy –

do they?? re Gary Jack?? who trots him out?? AFL PR?? the D-T for a story??

Last time I saw him it was when they were talking about what the 3rd son might be doing. I gather it’s a human interest story up in Sydney, the Jack family and the sporting adventures of the kids.

However, down here, we had a deal made about former Sydney Swan/St Kilda player Silvio Foschini’s son Matthew playing at MVFC. Silvio pointed out that it wasn’t so unusual as within the broader clan it was really Silvio that was the black sheep.

Heck, in years gone by, every time the Ronaldson boys in basketball were mentioned it was dropped in that their dad was a Richmond premiership player. Or in netball when Eloise Southby was doing the rounds, that her dad was a Carlton great.

It’s not any more I wouldn’t think than connecting the dots for a broader audience appreciation/engagement.

but – re x-code point scoring – – just take a look at how much the cricket folk are trying to pump up Alex Keath opting for cricket over the AFL (GC Suns did actually draft him).

????

It WAS before the RL WC. Absolutely.

Nothing to do with the NRL. ARL and IRLF might’ve covered it, but not NRL I wouldn’t’ve thought.

Note – from a Roy Masters article in 2008.

SCG Trust general manager Jamie Barclay said: “Demetriou wanted to play the international rules match at the SCG on either the Friday or the Saturday before the Sunday World Cup opening ceremony and opening match, but we already had signed a contract with the Rugby League International Federation to stage their events. On that basis, we were unable to do it.”

the Rain on the parade bit –

ARL chairman Colin Love, who is also the World Cup tournament director, said: “I would have been extremely disappointed if the Trust had not rejected the application and I would be extremely disappointed if it was the aim of the AFL to rain on our parade.

The SMH link is no longer valid, but, it features the full article extract (and non functioning SMH link) here in a RL forum:
http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?p=4276324

You could just write it off as the usual MO of Roy Masters trying to stir up trouble.

BUt, for being an accomodating city and code that Sydney folk are trying to claim – when you see what Colin Love said, he’s not being very accomodating. Compare to 2003 as I did re the RU WC and the super weekend of sport in Melb around IR, RU and VRC. A great ‘festival’ feel. Almost a sign of what a more accomodating FFA could’ve garnered for us from a fairer FIFA WC proposal!!!! (for ALL codes, RL and RU included).

epiphanies perhaps???

You’re right though – – that, in some cases, because the game is so much less structured to RL/RU, perhaps, just perhaps, it’s a game of greater all round freedom but also greater all round responsibility that appeals to some people.

For Hunt, when you read this article from earlier this year
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/hunt-carries-a-torch-for-nrl-20110115-19ryu.html

”Even in my early days with the Broncos, I wanted to do things a bit differently. I didn’t pigeon-hole myself to stereotypical full-back duties. I wanted to kick with both feet, tackle like a forward, run up like a forward and ball play like a No. 7. So I stayed behind after training to practise everything.”

Basically,……he wanted to play Australian Football!!!

So, it might be a match made in heaven (or, Carara!!).

keep mindful when you lament the Off-siders. How many national programs are based in Melbourne any more? Stuff all. So, we in the AFL states and Melb in particular have to put up with all the Sydney centricity, and Ch.9’s super massive NRL bias. As far as the Offsiders go – – I like watching it and think they’re generally pretty good, and Roy the boy get’s on there now and then, and Franics Leach and a few others to mix it up a bit. I would’ve thought Gerard Whately is a pretty good performer and Cassidy’s main weakness is black and white.

Caroline Wilson on the other hand…..can be very cringe worthy and she really, really only has AFL perspective and we could certainly agree that she is unworthy of that program.

Taking on Folau and Hunt is certainly confrontational, it is certainly a PR stunt (and that portion of their wages far outweights what they’ll get for actually PLAYING the game). No argument there.

And if Hunt didn’t want to stay at the Bronco’s sans Wayne Bennett then fine – – but, joining the dots beyond that is an inaccurate science. If the Bronco’s hadn’t of rocked the boat then K.Hunt might still be in the NRL and this discussion might never have been. Is that the AFL’s fault?? The AFL didn’t move Bennett on? Hunt and Folau didn’t break any contracts at the end of the day.

And obviously, money is/was an issue. As a lure or as a compensation for athletes who may end up almost unemployable at the end of this sporting experiment.

D-T does warm fuzzy AFL stories similar to H-S doing warm fuzzy NRL stories. Normally superficially and the scandals get a good run too. However, on the topic of Folau and Hunt the D-T and SMH ran each story in BOTH the AFL and NRL sections and included some…..colourful and robust adjectives…….designed to inflame and infuriate??

btw – re I.Folau – remember back to Feb 2010.

on one hand :
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/nrl/nrl-all-stars-unveiled-at-blacktown-near-afls-greater-western-sydney-base/story-e6frfgbo-1225828026483

language like :

RUGBY league yesterday fired its opening salvo for 2010 against the AFL
and
A tough-talking David Gallop delivered the AFL a backhander when he said: “In western Sydney grandfathers, fathers and sons all go to the game together, and that kind of generational support is not something that can be bought overnight.”
and
NRL All Stars assistant coach Brad Fittler went one further, labelling AFL “capitalist animals” who would stop at nothing to crush league in the west.
and Jarrad Hayne (who had been wooed by the AFL)
“I’m not sure what we can do, but we have to come up with something,” said Hayne, when asked about stopping the AFL. We can’t let them come in and feel comfortable and take rugby league people away from the game. It’s such a great game.”

You get the picture, the company line was coming out thick and fast

ironically, on the same day,
http://www.news.com.au/nrl-star-israel-folau-backs-afl-in-sydney/story-e6frf9jf-1225828181762

In an interview that had rugby league boffins cringing noticeably in the background, Folau sang the praises of the AFL over its plans to establish a foothold in western Sydney.
and

“I hope the AFL get a bit of a run here around this area and hopefully it grows for the future,” Folau said.

“I know that rugby league is the bigger game around here, but we’ll see what happens over the next couple of years. I would be a bit worried if they came out a bit stronger than league, but like I said before it will take a bit of time for that.”

So, had Folau already been unofficially poached at that point in time? I dunno. Had Hayne been officially wooed or just mentioned theoretically? I dunno. And interesting now that you’d imagine there’s no room or need for such ‘PR’ stunts – that Hayne recently suggested he wouldn’t mind keeping an AFL option open come the end of his existing contract.

At what point is any of it poaching??

perhaps re Folau, looking back to 2008 with articles like this –

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/znrl/folau-taps-into-afl-secrets/story-e6frepaf-1111116832808

perhaps the seed got planted before GWS was mentioned in dispatches.

is it Geelong owning it? or the City of Greater Geelong who provide GeelongFC with a very nice deal. I’m pretty sure the City of GG own it. So, when GeelongFC and the AFL pump multi million amounts into it – they increase the value of the public asset and a trade off is their revenue generation capacity is improved and everyone is happy.

The comparison to the MCG and Docklands sadly sees high overheads because of a lack of Govt investment. The MCC carries huge debt burdens. The AFL is contracted there for 45 years, pays an annual multi million dollar ‘fee’ plus the MCC charges a premium and effectively the AFL provides the revenue for the MCC to service the debt. The asset belongs to the people and the State Govt’s look good because I think a lot of the public actually believe the MCG to be a publicly funded asset. Alas, even in the 1956 Olympic Games era, the venue was mostly MCC funded. And since the ’80s as the ground has transformed more into a Football Ground than a cricket ground, it’s mostly footy funded.

Docklands of course, is expensive because private investors need to get a return over the 25 years before the AFL assume lock, stock ownership. Again, there’s profits/interest to be considered. And the AFL provides the revenue.

That’s why it’s so expensive. Geelong is an example of how good it can be. MCG and Docklands how bad. And the sooner 2025 comes for the AFL the better – they can then bargain down the MCG and the GOvt might be forced to help pay out MCC debt (won’t be much by then).

Of course, this discussion dates back to the State Govt screwing the then VFL over plans to extend VFL park and move the VFL finals out there. That would’ve killed the MCG/MCC. And that’s why we still have the madness today of cricket club members getting priority premium access to the AFL Grand Final each year…….lunacy. But, that’s self interested Govt for you!!!

Crosscoder –

it’s polite to admit when you’re wrong.

My comments that you reckon we ambiguous were as follows :

“ANd yet, when the AFL asked on behalf of the GAA whether there was a possibility of a match in Sydney of the ‘Mickey Mouse’ international Rules, the NRL/ARL jumped up and down whinging about raining on their parade because it would be a day or two before the kick off of the RL WC.”

It was int a whole separate paragraph to the paragraph that reference the FFA WC bid.

So, stop trying to blame a lack of clarity when you clearly did not read what was written. Be careful , it appears as if arrogant to blame a lack of clarity for what looks more like a poor application of comprehension and reading skills.

There was ZERO mention of FFA WC in the paragraph in question, and there was a fair lead in to the sentence in question that clearly illustrated a change of specific topic.

So, please, just be willing to admit whey you got it wrong – – there’s already too many people on here who are running around with loaded guns and hair triggers.

Crosscoder –

main thing with K.Hunt is the AFL guys didn’t even think about approaching him until it became common knowledge that he was finishing up in the NRL – – now, whether that was Hunt playing a bluff hand?? It may well be. However, it certainly added a new dimension and suddenly we saw a few more ‘leaks’ about possible AFL overtures eminating from ……. player managers?? So, on this issue – – – I’d suggest to take a chill pill, half of what has been heard is probably false and the other 50% is an over exaggeration.

Israel Folau I still find interesting. Craig Hutchison (who likes to run scoops and isn’t backward in pushing an anti AFL hq line or scandal etc) was adamant that Folau had approached the AFL.

Now, we know at various times Sheedy in answer to questions had nominated a short list of names of NRL players that he could concieve being worth a crack at ‘converting’. One wonders who made the first ‘official’ overtures? or does it matter, is someone just making a sweeping statement enough? Is so, damn the AFL types who ever said that.

But, the Folau one for me is complicated by the fact that prior to any of these happenings, that he already had a couple of cousins (and their dad) getting involved in Aust Footy in Tonga, and 2 of those cousins represented the Sth Pacific in the Aust Nat U16s champs last year, and before that, they represented Tonga in the inaugral Oceania U16s champs in Fiji at the end of 2009 (where one of the cousins was the Tongan captain and a stand out performer).

It was a couple of months after that Dec 2009 Oceania Cup that Folau was out in West Sydney promoting the upcoming NRL indigenous all stars game I think in Feb 2010, with David Gallop and perhaps Jarrad Hayne, and Folau was quizzed about the AFL in West Sydney and he made a lot of positive comments about hoping they do well and it being good to open up new pathways. Gallop when told commented something like “That’s interesting”.

Question is – – as at Feb 2010, were the gears already greased? or was Folau just germinating an idea in his own head that lead to him committing to switch 4 months after that.

So, it’s one of those stories where I’m not certain whether it’s a quote-unquote ‘poaching’ or whether it’s something a little more nobel.

No doubt you’ll believe what you want to believe. Either way – Folau DOES have a major challenge before him, and who knows what credibility at the end of his contract.

absolutely correct. ON paper before hand people can say it’s a fait accompli that teams X,Y and Z will get through and no one cares until the qrtr final stage – – – but, it only takes the one upset to change everything. And we’ve seen it before, there’s usually at least one per tournament. And that alone justifies the minnows.

(in a broader sense, minnow justification should see Netherlands or Ireland granted limited test status in a 2 tiered test championship or something like that………..I dunno. That’s no easy chestnut to crack or it would’ve been by now)

Crosscoder –

the raining on the RL parade was NOT re the FFA cup bid – that was regarding the AFL asking on behalf of the GAA as to whether an International Rules match might be able to be played in Sydney. (I don’t seriously think the AFL wanted to but they did ask).

Now – – if you read my post – – that is what I unambiguously said… So, when you ask what I’m complaining about….perhaps re-read it.

Re poaching players……and we know that’s why RL and RU hate each other with a vengance, as both codes are past masters at it,

however, Karmichael Hunt was leaving anyway – – he was not poached from RL, but perhaps from RU.

so, are yo angry from an RL perspective, or from an RU perspective re Karmichael???

re the NRL and the FFA WC bid.
Gallop described it (mid season shut down) publicly as unworkable, (mid Nov).
club chiefs threatened revolt,
and lost in the media circus in the first week of December when Demetriou spoke for the first time (because, up until then, all through Nov, it was more the NRL kicking up a stink, but, perhaps no one took them seriously??). Anyway, when the Demetrioiu comments got reported, most people missed reading that the NRL had rejected the FFA proposed workarounds.

So, at that point, the AFL needed to see more detail. The NRL HAD seen more detail and rejected. I’d suggest that Demetriou had it on good authority from Gallop what devils he might expect to find in the detail – – – – wouldn’t you?? Let’s not for a minute suggest that the NRL wasn’t very happy for the AFL to be on side in forcing such trade offs as the MOU and it’s guarrantees.

JamesB –

I concur with Redb,

You did start it – – but to admit you’re wrong is admirable.

(that IS what you were doing isn’t it???)

😉

asanchez –

Main thing is, and I was tracking the data ‘cos I got sick of the company line – – MVFC for example, in V2, the games at Docklands averaged 32,000. Progressively in successive years, they dropped down through 26,000, to 23,000 and below.

This was despite very good on field performances.

So, even while Fury and Gold coast game in – – the attendances were not trending well in key markets. SFC for example, first 3 years were doing b/w 15-17,000. There followed 12-13,000 range.

Were there too many games? We mid week fixtures crap? Was SFC vs Fury just not sexy enough?

The big thing is to be realistic, and when crowds boomed in V2, it was largely, mostly on the back of MVFC. The V3 increase was almost exclusively due to the Wellington Phoenix replacing Auckland — so, now reflected of soccer in Australia.

And since then – – Melbourne and Sydney and Brisbane have softened, alarmingly. The MVFC no doubt made the FFA wonder how good it was and could be and they were desperate to get the Hearts in. Now, alas, the 3 ‘big games’ in town each year are the local derbies and the bottom has fallen out of the old big ticket games vs SFC and Adelaide.

I’m not for a minute saying it’s easy – – however, early days when certain claims were being made, like any such organisation, there was a fair level of spin, and a bit of a gamble was being taken. That’s fine. Thus far, not many of the cards have come up trumps in the A-League.

re juniors leaving our shores or not, I guess if you asked Pim, he still thought training in Holland was preferable to playing A-League. That was only 12 months ago. But, you’re right, the pathway is far better defined and that’s gotta be a good thing. Just needs some stability for a while at the top before any next phase of putting dots on a map.

btw – it’s not all about exposure re the AFL and NRL. It’s also about the history, the current exposure is a self fulling prophecy as a product of the games. So, that ‘if’ is a flight of fancy – – – for now. The games gotta do the hard yards and earn respect. And I reckon now is the time of the hard yards. And people are looking on (that’s something at least).

ah, Fussball,

then we need to run the state by state breakdown, because, we’d see that soccer would be winning NSW by a mile – – and outside of that it might be much more interesting.

btw – because the Aust Footy players are more likely to be involved in regular and organised participation,

they were therefore also more likely NOT TO BE HOME to take the call from the ABS!!!

btw – grain of salt area for these sorts of surveys (and please, don’t think I was being absolutely serious,

is that the comparison of the 2005/6 to 2009/10 figures shows soccer (outdoor) dropped from 419,600 to 401,000. Do you reckon that’s true/accurate?? And the Aust Footy figure dropped from 268,700 to 240,500.

If you believe that both those codes have declined in participants over that time……well, y’never know.

btw – the ERASS annual stats provide a state by state breakdown. Again though, just how meaningful the projected/extrapolated numbers really are……..I’m not too sure.