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SandBox

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Issie’s Rep as Admiral Akbar.

The chair can open by saying “All welcome to this Kangaroo court, and I have the death sentence on twelve systems”….looks at Issie….”I see much anger in you”….Castle/Bobba Fett nudges him, “I mean hate speech in you”

Date set for Folau's code of conduct hearing

He might get off this, by using the Chewbacca defense
They really should embrace this day, and encourage everyone to go Cosplay. The tribunal should wear Jedi council attire. Folau as Chewbacca. The prosecution could be Darth Maul. Castle as Boba Fett

Date set for Folau's code of conduct hearing

Hitch left most people in his wake, including someone experienced at manipulating a crowd like Tony Blair. Lennox won their first debate on a vote. William Lane Craig (WLC) is another he lost to. However, what do we mean by “lost”, other than the crowd voted for the other guy. Let’s ignore the evidence and reason put forward and just accept a crowd’s decision? Argumentum ad populum.

Imho, Hitch always put forward the stronger case. Just Lennox and WLC won the crowd those days. Hitch was an evolved mammal like the rest of us, complete with flaws, bad days, and a famous alcohol and smoking problem

Israel, please shut up about God – oh, and happy Easter!

I watched Hitchens’ debate with Dr Lennox, no way the Hitch ‘lost’. Having said that, I would love to chat with Lennox, seemed a great guy

Israel, please shut up about God – oh, and happy Easter!

No one’s mentioned Ostara. At least the show American God’s remembers ‘Her’

Israel, please shut up about God – oh, and happy Easter!

Most of what you listed are crimes and nothing to do with freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech has it’s limits. Inciting violence for example. A common one, where freedom of speech ends is the yelling “fire” in a crowded cinema, where there is no fire.

Whilst you can’t stop people saying hateful or stupid things, they lose their right to claim freedom of speech when they cross that line.

Did Folau cross that line by quoting his religious book? To some he did, and others he didn’t

Izzy and Rugby AU: A monumental misconception

Suppose he’d argue that Corinthians 6:9-10 does say that. You only go two ways, heaven or not.

Izzy and Rugby AU: A monumental misconception

R.Oaf,

I agree with you, to a large extent. When you take pay, especially large pay, you should STFU and do your job. At times I do find this hard to reconcile with my belief in freedom of speech and not being offended, but answering with logic or evidence, even mocking, in Folau’s case. The pay cheque always wins for me. Which leads us to the broader question of how much should a corporation own us? I’m happy to bend over for a pay cheque. People like Folau (my assumption from his behaviour) think the pay only goes so far, and they shouldn’t have to sacrifice their ethics to an employer. In principle I support their rights, in reality I think they’re stupid

Where it seems to be heading in a tricky direction for RA, is that he just quoted the bible. Will they need to prove that the bible is against their employment terms, or CoC? The legal opinions seem to be divided. There is also the court of public opinion that seems equally divided.

Izzy and Rugby AU: A monumental misconception

I like what you and Sinclair have to say here. It seems, to me, to go beyond freedom of speech questions, and enters the realm of censorship. Both by RA, and the “I’m offended” brigade. They want to throw out freedom of speech, as they don’t wish to exercise their own freedom to think.
If we want to avoid a Dystopian Nanny state (it might already be too late), we need to be less offended, and better at constructing replies. An “I’m offended” type, doesn’t like what Folau said, that’s ok. Try using logic, reason or evidence as a reply. Censoring, or when that doesn’t work, having his employment terminated, are all things that just gradually remove our freedoms in society. Makes it a place where you have to comply with the mainstream narrative, or you get Ostracised.
There are lots of holes in Folau’s quote: contradictions within his own holy book, translations from different languages, what was written or excluded at Nicaea, the generation rule. Don’t worry about that, let’s just go straight to censorship, and if that doesn’t work, then expulsion
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Izzy and Rugby AU: A monumental misconception

It often takes a comedian to get to the core of a problem.

Stories are emerging that RA doesn’t have a water tight contract with regard to Folau’s SM. Even if they did, they may need to prove the bible is hate speech, which would be problematic. If this is true, RA really are the bumbling fools many here thought they were

Anyway, I feel a need to leave this conversation with Dr Steven Weinberg. Nobel prize winner for Physics
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

Izzy, you're a complete...

I’d also be interested in someone with a marketing backgrounds’ opinion. See if the “no such thing as bad publicity” saying applies to Folau

Folau speaks for the first time since sacking announcement

Neuroscience has all but ruled out free will. Makes it hard to determine just how much a liar, drunk and everyone else on that list can change. Hard to determine if Folau even has a choice with his comments. One thing’s for sure, life is simpler if we all believe we had free will

Israel Folau issued breach notice, has 48 hours to respond

Good points, but I suppose he would argue it’s not a breach of conduct, as he was just quoting (badly) from the bible. Then try to make it about religious freedom, rather than his contract. I’m not sure if a contract can stop someone from doing this. If he goes down the legal path, then we will find out eventually

Folau speaks for the first time since sacking announcement

“will you to stop posting this stuff”. i wonder what his honourable answer was at that point.”

That’s a very good question. The legal questions aside, did he honestly say he would stop during contract negotiations, then just change his mind. He would fall under his own liars going to Hell statement.

Possibly the public will never know this, but it would be interesting to see what contract he signed, and what social media clauses were in there.

Would also be interested in a legal opinion on the case. Would he be able to use Kawaja’s exemption from advertising as a precedent? Would he be able to escape the hate speech accusation by saying he was just quoting from his holy book? Is it even hate speech under Australian law, as so many have been quick to say? Might be hard to prove that in law, with him quoting the bible. They might need to prove the bible is hate speech, which would open a can of worms, and favour IF’s case.

Folau speaks for the first time since sacking announcement

It does get blurry grey when trying decide the effect of a dictator, or oppressive regime, using religion for his/their cause, and the religion of itself. In the case of the Americas, yes the germs did more damage than anything else. Jarrod Diamond’s “guns, germs and steel” highlights this very well. However, the major religion at play was Christianity

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot. Sherlock calls this “the Atheist atrocities fallacy”

I won’t say anymore on the Rechskonkordat vs Kirchenkampf, as ‘the Hitch’ says it better than I could…

“Now, just to take the most notorious of the 20th century totalitarianisms – the most finished example, the most perfected one, the most ruthless and refined one: that of National Socialism, the one that fortunately allowed the escape of all these great atheists, thinkers and many others, to the United States, a country of separation of church and state, that gave them welcome – if it’s an atheistic regime, then how come that in the first chapter of Mein Kampf, that Hitler says that he’s doing God’s work and executing God’s will in destroying the Jewish people? How come the fuhrer oath that every officer of the Party and the Army had to take, making Hitler into a minor god, begins, “I swear in the name of almighty God, my loyalty to the Fuhrer?” How come that on the belt buckle of every Nazi soldier it says Gott mit uns, God on our side? How come that the first treaty made by the Nationalist Socialist dictatorship, the very first is with the Vatican? It’s exchanging political control of Germany for Catholic control of German education. How come that the church has celebrated the birthday of the Fuhrer every year, on that day until democracy put an end to this filthy, quasi-religious, superstitious, barbarous, reactionary system?“ Christopher Hitchens

Hitler used religion to suit his ends

I’d suggest the Greek Philosophers did more than Christianity to gives us a free society, but do accept your point that Christianity has done many good things, and due to the ‘turn the other cheek’ part of the New Testament, is often an easier target for criticism than other religions. So they deserve credit where it’s due

Israel Folau digs in for the fight of his professional life

North and South America, the Americas. The higher figure is somewhere around there. The numbers aren’t certain and it could be a lot lower.

Stalin’s reign had a pact with the Orthodox Church. Another one put out there is Germany (1930’s until after WWII), but they had a pact with the Roman Catholics. Prepared to give you China. However, places like China and North Korea, just replace the invisible man watching over you, with the state

Israel Folau digs in for the fight of his professional life

Andy S, my only real point is that people pushing the good things any religion has done, don’t get to ignore the bad. I don’t think Andy F is like that, was just adding some balance.

Yes, there is a lot of doubt about the dark ages, and realise historians don’t use the term anymore. However you look at it, Christianity was a major player

Israel Folau digs in for the fight of his professional life

North and South America, the Americas. The higher figure is around there. The numbers aren’t certain though.

Stalin had a pact with the Orthodox Church, so he doesn’t really qualify. Nazi Germany is one put up there as well, but they had a pact with the Roman Catholics. Prepared to give you China. However, countries like this and North Korea just replace the religious invisible man watching you, with the state watching you

Israel Folau digs in for the fight of his professional life

That’s a double edged sword you bring Andy F

If you liked the dark ages, you have Christianity to thank for that

If you liked that people were burnt at the stake for wanting the Lord’s Prayer spoken in English, you have Christianity to thank for that

If you liked the Spanish inquisitions, you have Christianity to thank for that

If you liked that around 150 Million Indigenous people in the Americas were wiped out from settlement, you have Christianity to thank for that

Israel Folau digs in for the fight of his professional life

You are definitely going to Hell for that whiskey pun. Not because it’s alcohol, because how bad it is

Well written, pleasant read

"Do not judge," said Jesus: An open, personal letter to Israel Folau

Why the need to bring his unborn children into this?

He may home school them, or send them to a fundamentalist school. They may well be heroes there.

There may be some people that will encourage their kids to take it out on IF’s kids. However, assault is a crime, regardless of age.

Issie is the fool, not his children (yet anyway)

What about your future kids, Izzy?

I agree with it as a general principle. I do realise the Nanny state has taken this away from many countries. Also agree that freedom of speech has it’s limits. Inciting people to violence is a good example where freedom of speech ends. Another common example is yelling “fire” in a crowded cinema, where there is no fire. This is also not freedom of speech

Israel Folau does not deserve the sack

Ben, that any religion is preaching this hateful rubbish anywhere, should be a concern for anyone that wants our civilisation to continue and evolve.
Whilst I agree with Will’s article re: freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Religion should be doing a lot more apologising for the: murder, rape, torture, genocide and bigotry it has caused throughout the Millenia before they demand special rights, and the play the victim when their nonsense message gets called out
In the wake of what Folau said, if I was talking to a teenage gay that was affected by this. I’d be bringing up Carl Sagan’s “extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence”. This has later became/evolved into Hitchen’s razor “what can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence”. As the Fairie tales for adults brigade insists on producing no evidence at all for their case, it should be dismissed. Hell, their holy book, everything.
This brings us to the core problem, imho, that Fairie tales for adults need to stop getting any special rights, until they produce some real evidence that: 1, their invisible man exists, 2, that invisible man has chosen their religion. Until then, they don’t get to demand special rights, and anything they say should be dismissed without evidence

Israel Folau does not deserve the sack

In King Lear Shakespeare said “…who lashes the whore has a hot need to use her for the very offence for which he plies the lash”

By this rational, IF’s secret fantasy is: to be drunk, looking at himself in the mirror whilst having sex with a man, a married woman and a prostitute. Then lying about it to his wife, and stealing a lap-top.

Tah-Tah, Izzy: Rugby Australia, NSW Rugby confirm they'll sack Folau

Yes he is

Folau slammed over anti-gay comments