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He used some great writing to disguise propaganda

A message to all rugby players: It’s ok to be not ok

As I said, the implications on contract law/Australian law aren’t something I know enough about. I’d maintain that what he said fits within freedom of speech guidelines. Even if he loses in court

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

Gray-Hand, the only question is if a holy text gets treated differently to any other book? If the answer is yes, then quoting from a holy text will get treated differently.

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

There is also the mysterious Lewy bodies that cause rapid onset dementia. This happened to Robin Williams, who many incorrectly say did himself in from depression

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-lewy-body-dementia-gripped-robin-williams1/

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

Shame you didn’t make the Jackson movies.

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

Agree with you Sheek.

The whole ‘everyone’s a winner’ has not served our youth very well in preparing them for the knocks we take out there in the workforce, or running a business.

Allowing the “I’m offended” to infect our youth, makes as much sense as sending a high level rugby team onto the field without conditioning training. There’s a reason contact sports do this.

As the movie ‘meet the Parents sequel’ would say “Oh they have 12th place ribbons now”. More mental resilience is required for our youth. I am seeing this already. No more 12th place ribbons in my kids’ school. Often it’s only one winner, and no runner up prizes.

When my kids don’t win, tell them it’s ok, so long as they learn and use it as an opportunity to improve. I’m probably a terrible parent though. Should be teaching that it’s [insert offence here] reason they didn’t win, that they really were the best on field. Do some ‘helicopter parenting’ and harass teachers for better grades. That sort of thing

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

Agree with you Sheek, but would add that we need to be smarter with how we toughen up. Liken it to the conditioning training that rugby, and other contact sport players do. This prepares them for the tough hits they will take on the field in a way that doesn’t cause them to get injured outside of the field (mostly).

If we were to suddenly remove conditioning from rugby, the onfield injuries would be horrendous. There are parallels to rugby conditioning to the way so many snowflakes are so easily offended in today’s society. As the movie “meet the Fokker’s” highlighted “Oh they give out 12th place ribbons?”. The ‘everyone’s a winner’ schooling hasn’t prepared our kids for the tough knocks that life dishes out. Hasn’t instilled resilience. I see it changing for the better though

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

“Take note, Michael Cheika”…..LMFAO….great title [winky-dink smiley face]

Take note, Michael Cheika: Canberra must be the Wallabies' power base in 2019

Yes Gray-Hand,
As I said in another post, find myself defending him more than I’d care to, after the lynch mob mentality kicked in. It is his position that the reported discussions weren’t what we are hearing, and his position isn’t given a lot of coverage, imho
The first thing I posted after the 2nd post story broke, was “if there is a god, he will have to beg for my forgiveness”. Scratched into Mathausen Concentration Camp cell wall, by an anonymous (assumed Jewish) prisoner. I’d rather be having theological discussions on the untruth of the religious message, than defending his freedom of speech.
Not aware of the Australia law/contract law implications, but I maintain that what he said was within UDHR guidelines of freedom of speech (just)

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

I’ve said in other posts that the youth suicide issue, of which gays are the largest numbers, is possibly not that far from a real scientific solution. I can see advances in Neuroscience, DNA testing, cognitive sciences, filtering through to our education to identify these people, and give them effective strategies to keep them alive. It’s the ‘effective’ part I believe we need to work on.

In many ways the discussion here was a repeat of Folau’s first post. Originally, was ridiculing what he said. Then when the lynch mob mentality kicked in, found myself defending his freedom of speech a lot more than I’d care for. I’d much rather be ridiculing his position, but don’t like to see a naive baby-man who seems to be domineered by his father into pseudo-cult like beliefs, get thrown to the wolves over a stupid post

Also, see Christianity as a soft target. If RA sacks someone from a more aggressive religion, they will need to watch their backs, cars, family, and probably won’t sleep well at night.

Although they seem so self-absorbed in their own rhetoric, that this might not be the case. How sick does a person on big wages need to be to list grass roots rugby and volunteers being affected by Folau. Not once mentioning their own pay packages being affected, or the decades of neglect prior to the Folau saga

Even if Folau wins, they’ll probably sit around a meeting and talk about how much worse the damage would be if it wasn’t for their exemplary leadership. “We lost $10M, but it could have been $20M if it wasn’t for us. We can trim grass roots funding, and give ourselves a bonus based on the $10M saving…everyone wins!” Slaps on back, leaves office early to spend the bonus

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

If what is reported is true, they didn’t even try to get a clause into Folau’s contract until after he signed. So he didn’t reject the clause, which goes to Folau’s side that he has been misrepresented by RA when it comes to his instructions on what is respectful and what isn’t

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

They reportedly did it for Beale. Makes no sense they wouldn’t do it for Folau. The reported story that it was an error, and then they tried to get him to sign an amendment, makes a lot more sense. Given the way RA handles so many other things

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

You speak warmly about freedom of speech but begin by effectively saying “we don’t really know what’s going on. So what we need to do is go blindfolded in the dark and have a stab at it. When we trip over ourselves we at least send a massive virtue signal that we were trying to do something”. Pretty much what RA has done

Responsibility is to stay within freedom of speech boundaries.

The role model has some merit. It equally applies to sport stars that glass girlfriends, have affairs, urinate on themselves or others in public, try to have sex with animals on film, anti-Vaxxers, flat Earthers, knife their coach in the back, brawls in bars with strangers or team mates. How’s the punishment going for those players?

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

At no stage did I say that suicide rates were unknown. Rather the causes aren’t fully known, as some come from accepting families and countries.

I’d suggest we’ve already made significant progress re: gay rights and education. We still have a long way to go, but let’s not throw out freedom of speech in the process

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

Harris’ position is debated amongst the great minds, and boils down to two possibilities.

Could have done differently (CHD), or could not have done differently (CNHD). If you take the CHD position, then our traditional views on punishment remain the same.

If you take Harris’ position that we CNHD in any given decision. Then it becomes a complex issue with regard punishment. It would only be used as a deterrent to others, and to isolate an offender to prevent him/her offending again.

If you take the CHD case to Folau, then he was warned and chose to repeat. Therefore, deserves what he got, although I would argue a fine and lengthy suspension would have been enough. E.g. missing the RWC

If you take the CNHD to Folau, then he had as much choice in his post as a gay does with their sexuality. Punishment serves no purpose other than as a deterrent to others who might make similar posts.

People, including myself, mistake conscious free will being off the table, with Fatalism. I often said that if free will was gone, then I could lie on the beach all day and magically become a Doctor. Harris deals with this quite well in his book “free will”. It took me about two years to fully get the difference between no free will and fatalism, but I feel Harris’ quote above is exactly where I’m at right now. That is, feeling freer in my mind then when I thought I had free will.

As for the debate on CHD versus CNHD, I’m still confused on that one

BREAKING: Israel Folau takes legal action against Rugby Australia

It’s a sad indictment on rugby in australia, that a kiwi like Robbie Deans had a better reputation for turning up to these type of games, then Cheika or RA executives

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

It was interesting how quickly they said grass roots rugby would be affected. No way it could affect their impressive pay and bonus package

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

The research on what causes being gay is inconclusive. The current narrative is that it’s genetic, or nature, as opposed to nurture. However, the nature argument has flaws. For example, a survey of 60% of indigenous tribes didn’t even know of homosexuality (source: ‘the Better Angels of our Nature’ by Steven Pinker).

Equally, there is still a lot unknown about youth suicide. Many have come from loving and supporting homes and families.

It’s one of the exaggerations in this discussion to link Folau’s post to the suicide issue. Not quite as bad as RA blaming Folau for grass roots rugby problems though.

I like the way you finish by asking questions that you answer yourself. It’s similar to the way the Alien conspiracy guy asks “could this be evidence of Aliens, and the Answer is Yes!”

Could Folau have done differently?

Could RA have handled it differently?

Could RA have put a specific SM clause into his contract renewal?

And the Answer is Yes…. or No…there is some science out there that we could not have done different given any set of circumstances. The Could or Could not have done different, is one of the few remaining discussions on free will

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

“freedom of religion and speech does not mean freedom from consequence”

Yes it does mean free from consequences. Otherwise it’s not freedom of speech.

Many of us have posted definitions of where freedom of speech ends. One of the most common examples is yelling “fire” in a crowded theatre, where there is no fire. That’s not freedom of speech, and has consequences

Did Folau cross that line where freedom of speech ends? Imho, he didn’t. As to the contractual obligations, should an employer be able to silence someone’s freedoms without specific clauses, Australian law, are all things that complicate the matter.

If you believe the anonymous legal opinions here, then Folau will lose.

I wonder though, if RA has such a water tight case, why they (allegedly) need to leak to the media. Also, how many players after the RWC will lose faith in their bosses and leave, over the Folau treatment. Perhaps they are all disappointed in him, or perhaps not

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

Paulo,
If you want to espouse the ‘Broken windows’ or ‘Zero tolerance’ line, then it needs to equally apply to white-collar crime, RA execs breach of their own contracts, lack of executive performance compared to their pay, or (the more likely scenario), RA strategically and deliberately leaking confidential information to try to influence a court case.

Instead you want to make it about the importance of police fining motorists doing 2 km above a speed limit, and beat up on some cookey baby-man who makes a stupid post.

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

Or maybe an (alleged) RA executive should face the same consequences that everyone seems happy that Folau faced?

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

Noodles, that would be a broad sweeping statement, and unjust to the many good Catholics.

If he said “all too many Catholic priests are paedophiles hiding behind their robes and authority”, then that would be an accurate statement, and (should) be protected under freedom of speech

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

Neutral, are you saying that studying Stalin, has made you less interested in general human rights? Made you hate his pact with the Russian Orthodox Church only?

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia

[plays ‘Born Free” in reply to your record]

I can only repeat myself, that the UDHR eliminates the need to define wether a book needs special consideration because it has ‘holy’ in front of it. There is a line no-one can cross. Imho, Folau didn’t cross that line, but realise many believe he did.

BREAKING: Israel Folau takes legal action against Rugby Australia

Yeah police in Oz these days, forced into revenue raising via issuing fines. The percentage of real policing has to have plummeted in the last few decades.

Nevertheless, a crime is a crime, and the police have an obligation to investigate all crimes

Lies and blatantly unfair: Folau slams Rugby Australia