By Jesse Fink
September 26th 2008 @ 6:00am
Still time left to plug the A-League crowd drain
Your redoubtable blogger got hammered by readers of my The World Game column in the first round of the season for saying A-League crowds were “going south”.
It wasn’t just a hunch.
The attendance figure for the Sydney-Melbourne blockbuster at the Sydney Football Stadium was under half of what it should have been.
Normally you would posit that 35,000 people at the very least would turn up for the derby between Australia’s two biggest clubs (there was a time when such a clash was getting over 50,000; albeit at a bigger stadium). Instead, just 16,000 rocked up and that figure was reckoned to be highly generous.
Anecdotally, what I’ve been hearing for a while now is that Sydney crowd figures are being routinely inflated; and not just Sydney. It’s happening across the league. Reminds me of the bad old Super League–Australian Rugby League stoush when the two warring camps were vying for supremacy and inflating their crowd figures to get one up on each other.
Now the FFA, surprisingly, has admitted there is a problem.
Over the past weekend the Sydney–Adelaide and Queensland–Newcastle matches only drew 12,000 punters through the turnstiles, with less than 10,000 stumping up to Bluetongue Stadium to see Central Coast face off with a rampant Melbourne Victory. Perth drew a pitiful 4000 for the game against Wellington in the west, but this was Perth, after all.
Obviously the numbers are affected by the fact rugby league is deep into the business end of the season, but that is a red herring. So is the global financial squeeze and the summer versus winter argument.
Also dismiss the notion that simply lifting advertising spend is going to arrest the slide.
People aren’t that stupid.
The problem as I see it is that there simply aren’t enough incentives for people to actually make the effort to go to the games when they are freely available, live, on pay television. The dollars it costs for a family and bunch of mates to sit in front of the box with a spread of food and sufficient liquid refreshment is still considerably lower than the damage it would have just to buy entry tickets.
It’s cheaper, more comfortable and far less hassle just to stay at home.
Now if someone truly special, like a Juninho, for instance, was turning out for Sydney FC, I would be tempted to make the effort to go to the Sydney Football Stadium. I would want to see his skills up close and in the flesh.
But Sydney doesn’t have Juninho anymore. There’s no razzle dazzle; nothing to elevate the team beyond the good and capable unit they are.
People are drawn to spectacle, and Sydney doesn’t offer it.
When Tony Lockett played for the Sydney Swans, for example, the club had to beat fans away with a stick. They couldn’t get enough of going to the Sydney Cricket Ground to see this magnetic, brutal, flawed but extraordinarily talented sportsman who was then at his peak.
After Lockett retired, the Swans struggled to regain the level of support they had enjoyed during the Lockett era. His “replacement”, Barry Hall, never quite cut it.
As for Sydney FC, I said back in March at the time of John Aloisi’s signing that he wouldn’t pull the crowds and was ridiculously overpriced and I feel I have been more than vindicated. He’s just coming back from injury, yes, but a good test for a player’s pull is how many people are talking about him on the street.
No one is talking about Aloisi. He’s a top bloke but yesterday’s news.
Sydney people are fickle and demand to see the best talent available; it’s a fact of life.
If the A-League wants to restore some robustness to crowd figures across the competition it could do a lot worse than put the feelers out for some ex-European or J-League players currently out of contract or on their way up and bring them in en masse for “Version 5.0″.
And not plodders. Real entertainers. Dare I say it, Nicky Carle.
Look at the impact young Jin-Hyung Song, a mesmerizing talent, has had at the Jets. Costa Rican Carlos Hernandez is also showing some silky touches for Victory.
It’ll cost a packet, but it’s a better investment for the future than over-the-top and flashy advertising.
Jesse Fink's columns now appear every Wednesday and Friday on The Roar.
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(64)
The Answer said | September 26th 2008 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Careful Jesse, talking about crowd figures AND making any comment about AFL is a dangerous cocktail on this site.
Kazama said | September 26th 2008 @ 8:42am | Report comment
I whole-heartedly agree Jesse. You need to give people a reason to come to the games these days, and that goes for any sport. In an age where Aussie working families can no longer afford what they might see as luxuries, you need to get these people to feel like they must be there at the game, that they’ll regret it if they miss out. Right now I don’t think any A-League club is doing enough to present this type of product.
I think star power is definitely an option. You only need to look at the success of LA Galaxy’s match in Sydney to understand that the star players bring out the fans. You aren’t going to be able to sign David Beckham, but there are other options out there. The marquee concept has been a failure in the eyes of many fans, but from the likes of Beni Carbone, Juninho, Yorke and even Kazu we can see what a little bit of quality from a player that has made it in the big time can bring to our league, and how they can be as effective as any marketing campaign in bringing people to the matches where they play.
There is a bit of talk going around at the moment about Japanese teams poaching our best talent for their teams with the new additional Asian foreigner spot. How about we do the same (as I believe you Jesse suggested a while back) and use it to lure some talented Asian players to out league, not just from the smaller nations but from Korea and Japan and China? Yes, it would cost a large amount of cash considering what some of these guys are probably being paid at their clubs, but IMO it would be worth it. Qu was a star for us despite the fact no one had ever heard of him before he pulled on a Reds shirt, the fans loved him and I know quite a few people that only came to Adelaide games because they wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I think you could definitely replicate that with quite a few players I saw on Wednesday night, or even playing for Pohang and Changchun. With the worrying crowd numbers, maybe this is the pressure we need on the FFA (as well as the JFA’s move to implement the Asian foreigner spot) for them to be thinking about this sort of thing becoming a way of getting more people to the games.
sledgeross said | September 26th 2008 @ 8:43am | Report comment
I think there have been some factors Jesse. The pulsating finals series in the NRL, the dominance of Geelong and the peaking run of the Hawks in the AFL all have the “swinging voters” still enthralled. No doubt once the footy finals are over their may be an increase, especially when cricket season starts. What will challenge the people who will go to the HAL? The NBL? This feeble competition is a shadow of its former self and means that the HAL should get some better numbers.
Admittedly, greater marketing is needed to get the punters in. Most people I know who got to the Sydney FC games migrate from Sydneys west or south, why not get more kids and families involved? Moore Park isnt the most family friendly place either. Joe Average travelling from Liverpool has to pay a toll, or fight traffic, pay for parking, pay 5 bucks for a salmonella infested “gourmet” hotdog consisting of frozen bratwurst, watch Sydney grind out a win at home, wait to leave the car park and then drive home. And dont get me started on the beer! How they get the cat to squat over the cup is beyond me!
I have mates who are sports (rather than football) fans. They were more inclined to See “All Night Dwight” or Juninho play rather than John Aloisi. Still, that may be due to the fact a few of them are going bald, and have no dandruff issues.
sledgeross said | September 26th 2008 @ 8:46am | Report comment
I forgot about Beni Carbone Kazama, good call. Living in Sydneys west, all my Italian “wog” mates all went to see Beni play. I admit, I went to see him becaue I used to live in Yorkshire and respected Beni for what he did at Bradford.
Dave said | September 26th 2008 @ 8:52am | Report comment
There are several reasons for the lower crowds in the first 5 weeks;
1. In versions 2-3 crowds were also lower in the early part of the season and built up as the season progressed
2. The competition for media attention with the RL and AFL finals in full swing which also partly explains point 1
3. In regards to Perth they have been down for so long it had to have an effect on attendance (there football can be difficult to watch)
4. The economic downturn will have a slight effect but could get worse depending upon whether there is a recession
5. some credence to what Jesse has said in that there perhaps is a feeling of sameness and so big new names need to be injected into the comp each year to spice things up. Not saying every club needs one but perhaps Perth, Wellington, Roar are teams that need something to get the public onside and attending in larger numbers
My team MV are doing very nicely and although crowds may have levelled off they will return for some of the big games to come. The quality of football played by MV this season as against this time last season is light years ahead and fans will return when they see more of MVs performances/results.
Redb said | September 26th 2008 @ 9:04am | Report comment
Dave,
Good to see with point 2 you agree the finals of AFL and NRL do impact on the HAL. This was something I recall you disputing as not relevant.
Re point 4, could it be the Swans poor finals crowd that everyone was predicting the death of the AFL in Sydney might just have been the canary in the coal mine for sports fans attendance generally, particularly in fickle and economically stalled Sydney.
Redb
Dave said | September 26th 2008 @ 9:15am | Report comment
Redb
My point 2 has always been a firmly held belief that HAL should, for that very reason, commence in the first week of October. There needs to be some build up of anticipation for a new season and HAL doesnt get it because the media are preoccupied with their codes finals. l would be happy for HAL to run until the end of March with a later commencement.
I dont ever recall disputing this point. MV just dont get enough media attention at this time of the year.
Sammy C said | September 26th 2008 @ 9:30am | Report comment
I haven’t been to an A-League game in over 2 years.
The quality of football (particularly this year) is shocking. It’s only deteriorated since the A-Leagues inception.
Dave said | September 26th 2008 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Sammy C
“The quality of football (particularly this year) is shocking” Compared to what? The EPL, Serie A, La Liga ? Of course the standard isnt at those levels. So how do you judge the standard? AU have just defeated the Champions of the J League over 2 legs, which is considered the best league in Asia and Adelaide are 3 or 4 on the HAL table! How can you compare the standards from season 1 to this season? Using what critieria? There have been some poor games this season as there have been in every season and as there has been in the EPL Serie A and La Liga already this season. There have also been some ripper games Mv vs Jets, CCM v SFC, CCM v MV, PG v Jets and others.
Koala Bear said | September 26th 2008 @ 9:40am | Report comment
I must admit I for one was a bit bewildered about the reason for the slow start to the season. However, I put it down to the NRL, Marn Grook birthday celebrations and the Olympics in China .. This season there has been a fair amount of distraction going on. Add to that the financial crisis, the cost of living suddenly spiking, and with the NRL and AFL Grand Finals upon us .. that has been the reason why… Also there has been far less media attention that normally comes to the A-League..
However, last Wednesday night, in my opinion is the beginning of the turning point .. Thank you Adelaide (what a game) .. I think Ben Buckley is right, that the FFA should wait until the end of the other codes season, before turning on the media advertising campaign .. Come October, Football shall come alive with the Australian National Football Team (Socceroos) home internationals and the Reds home fixture semi in Adelaide and across the board the good football being played in the HAL .. I am excited.. She’ll be apples.. Wait and see
~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | September 26th 2008 @ 9:49am | Report comment
Firstly, good on Jesse for taking an honest look at the first 5 weeks of the HAL (as opposed to some recent articles by other Roar contributors that have read more like PR exercises).
Con S wrote on this issue only a couple of days ago, and I thought his piece put it all in good perspective - that it is far too early to be slitting wrists, and that the proof of the pudding is really decades away. Others have rightly commented on the two steps forward, one step backwards progress of both the J-League and MLS over the past 15 years, and the likelihood that the HAL will be no different.
I thought the Swans analogy with Plugger Lockett was a good one, and there is no doubt that big names with marketable qualities pull people through the turnstiles, regardless of the sport.
jimbo said | September 26th 2008 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Pip,
none of us have been ‘dishonest’ about A-League crowds. We all acknowledge that crowds are down this year. Football fans are looking for reasons and explainations and remain positive about their game, as you would expect them to.
At the end of V4.0 the avge crowds may well be a couple of thousand down on last year.
The difference these days is that we have a well managed League and a well regulated central governing body in the FFA.
We also have a number of well administered competitions and national teams. Continued success for the Socceroos will have flow on for the domestic competitions and so on.
And if crowds for teams like Perth and Wellington continue to fall and they are not viable, there are a number of bids urging the FFA to be able to step up and take their place.
The FFA and clubs will act to maintain or even increase attendances.
Attendances at the ground is not the only measure of a sport’s commercial viability or popularity.
Sammy C said | September 26th 2008 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Dave,
Yes, Adelaide beat the Antlers on Wednesday which I watched, and I thought was a very entertaining game. The best game I’ve watched by an A-League team this season.
My comment is in relation to the decline of the standard of play over the years. I believe that it has been steadily declining since the A-Leagues inception this as well as the whole “novelty” of the HAL has had a direct result crowd figures reflect this. At no time did I compare the HAL with the likes of the EPL etc.
For me, the best match I’ve ever seen a HAL team play was Sydney FC vs Urawa in the 1st leg of the 1st round a few years back with Brankos first match as coach. The standard of play in that match was fantastic, however - when I struggle to think of the number of games where I have been genuinely impressed by the standard of play vs those games which have been poor…. well…. you work it out.
Michael C said | September 26th 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Reasons -
someone presented the ‘pulsating’ NRL finals series. HOwever, really, only a couple of Storm games have been really close, they’ve been 3 blow out matches, and the first round of 4 finals matches drew the least ever aggregate crowd since the final 8 system began in 1999 (and for the first time in that period, not one first week crowd cracked 20,000).
SO - - that perhaps indicates there’s a broader issue than just HAL stand alone, perhaps - - it really is a depressed financial environment.
I have also presented stats that show that for the first 5 rounds of HAL (v1,v2, v3 and v4) - that this year is the lowest yet, and 40,000 down comparative to same time last year.
Taken in isolation - it’s hard to attach any absolute meaning,
but, taken in combination with the NRL finals crowd figures, and the general Sydney crowd decline in NRL this season, along with sluggish results for the Sydney Swans capped with a sub 20K first final at Stad.Aust…………..well, it all paints a picture of an landscape in which expectations should be lowered a fraction.
see……………….I’ve actually been a bit magnanamous (did I butcher that spelling)…………..and not code parochial and avoiding entirely any references to AFL in Victoria this year!!!!!!
Dave said | September 26th 2008 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Sammy C
I support MV and we are playing some terrific stuff which is entertaining also (no doubt l’ve put the curse on MV and this week will be a drab 0-0
). We are playing light years ahead of what we played last season and probably even better than season 2.. As you know football, more than any other code, you run the risk of going to a game with no guarantee of goals or even few chances to score. If you are a football fan maybe now is the time to give the game another go. If your in Melb or Adlelaide for sure…if you live in Sydenee then l can understand why you wouldn’t watch that shite 
Dave said | September 26th 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment
MC
still just climbing back up off the floor
Michael C said | September 26th 2008 @ 10:42am | Report comment
btw -
this is interesting :
While Football Federation Australian still refuses to allow A-League chief Rob Abernathy to speak with the media,
what’s this secretive approach about? Gagging the fellow…………geeze……..it’s hard enough tracking down an ANnual Report of the FFA and now this, it all just seems a little too ‘closed shop’……………but, with a Frank Lowy around, one shouldn’t expect open and upfront business practices!!!!!
Pippinu said | September 26th 2008 @ 10:47am | Report comment
Jimbo
I wasn’t accusing anyone of dishonesty (least of all, your kind self) - I was applauding Jesse for taking a hard, cold, objective look at it, mainly because personally, I get a little bored with the “we’re really going places” type of articles that one often comes across.
But you will note that I have stated that at the end of the day, it is not a big deal (at least it’s far too early to jump to conclusions) - I said a similar thing in Con S’ article from the other day.
Take it easy man!
jimbo said | September 26th 2008 @ 10:56am | Report comment
No worries Pip,
Just giving these guys credit for being positive about their sport - which is what we all do.
Cheers
True Tah said | September 26th 2008 @ 11:01am | Report comment
MC,
Im sure the FFA have to release their annual report, aren’t they accountable to the Australian public? The ARU,NSWRU and QRU all have their latest accounts on their websites, although the Force and Brumbies don’t.
Anyway who cares about the drop in crowd figures, its not like futbol is that departed from everyday life that it can expect to impervious to the effects of the so-called credit crisis and people having less to spend on so-called luxuries in life? There is not a lot that the HAL clubs can do to stem this, it is going to have to live with it.
The FFA will help out any club in trouble, and the Federal Government has made it clear that it will not let futbol struggle, and I suspect it would come in to help out as well…whilst Lowy is a businessman before a futbol man, Im sure he can arrange plenty of debt finance to keep Sydney FC afloat.
sledgeross said | September 26th 2008 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Michael C, I mentioned the ‘pulsating’ NRL finals series. There has been increased interest this year due to the fact that the 8th team beat the 1st ranked team, this meant that the second round fixtures were up in ther air until the last whistle. Coupled with the fact that Bris and Melb had one of the closest games in recent memory, and the underdog Warriors actually got to play at home, and won quite easily scoring some great tries, its hard to argue that it hasnt been “pulsating”. Upsets, close games, controversy, teams not knowing whether they have been knocked out, the finals have breathed life into what was considered to be a one horse race of a season.
Pulsating doesnt mean closely fought.
Michael C said | September 26th 2008 @ 11:18am | Report comment
True Tah -
they must do, but, do a google and find it, where as the AFL Annual Reports are downloadable off AFL.com.au for the last couple of years.
Sledgeross -
fair enough - - but, my main point was that (and I probably failed to expand on it, given that it’s only week 3 of the finals now and perhaps crowds this week will be the real indicator) NRL crowds and Sydney crowds have been down this year too - - so, should the HAL be seen in isolation or not.
And whether the interest in the NRL finals (that granted, got turned on their heads at Olympic Park in week 1) translates to bigger crowds this weekend, or massive tv audience (live Storm into Melb tonight)……who knows.
dasilva said | September 26th 2008 @ 11:26am | Report comment
I have to admit. That A-league standard of football isn’t that flash. It is way to overly physical and thuggish. However there were few pearlers of the match. I remember last season when Adelaide defeated Central Coast 2-1. It was a very high standard of football. Adelaide was playing high class possession football with great passing and team work. Also when Newscastle Jets played Adelaide in the preliminary finals.. Nicky Carle was awesome and his passing ability was above everyones else.
The problem with A-league is that for every one match of high level of technical standard match there is 4-5 other matches that descend into thuggery. Seeing flair players been kick and bully off the pitch. I wish the likes of Juninho, daniel, Zullo and Kruse had more freedom to express themselves because they were constantly fouled when I watch them play. \
Still - not watching the match is not going to raise the standard.
The Link said | September 26th 2008 @ 11:46am | Report comment
sledgeross / MC
the Broncs Roosters game in week one was a cracker as well. There have only been 2 games where the result was never really in doubt (Manly v Saints and Sharks v Raiders). Remeber the Roosters lead at half time over the Warriors as well.
Michael C said | September 26th 2008 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
The Link and Sledgeross -
too much is sometimes read into the final margin.
North Melb lost to the Swans by 6 goals, yet looked to be coasting to an easy win just before quarter time, and held a 10 pt half time lead.
STKilda defeated Collingwood - but with 6 less scores (17.4 to 9.18).
The Doggies last week missed crucial shots just before 3/4 time that might have made it a 1 goal ball game at 3/4 time - -
often, in a final, in the last quarter, with no next week or percentage on the line - - once a certain point is reach, there can be junk time goals the blow out the margin - - so, people can read too much into just looking at the final score.
Los Oso said | September 26th 2008 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
I think that a big factor is that live games are shown against the gate in A-League on FOXSPORTS. A-League games should not be shown live against the gate in the state the game is played, they should be delayed for a few hours. I reckon this might get a couple of thouand more to each game….
cosmos forever said | September 26th 2008 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
Jesse - back to your original suggestion about attracting entertaining footballers. The problem is that even if entertaining footballers are signed, that is no guarantee that they will play or figure in the long-term plans of a coach trying to win a championship.
I think Juninio is a classic case in point.
So, unless the FFA instruct coaches to play entertaining players (which is basically corruption and collusion) a rule allowing those players in - or extra money spent chasing them, is a waste.
Don’t get me wrong - a highly skilled player can turn a game - but not every game for a full season - and that is what dire, success at all costs football coaches in the HAL at the moment are focussed on.
Slippery Jim said | September 26th 2008 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
‘Freely available on pay TV’. If only!
Still, it is inescapable that there has been a disappointing drop in attendance across the board this season. Perhaps the novelty is wearing off? Or maybe this is our attendance plateau? I am sure like with the MLS this is just a little blip that will only be temporary.
Cpaaa said | September 26th 2008 @ 4:23pm | Report comment
Jess write this article the same time next season, the beginning for glamor club Gold Coast United and North Qld FC will have an impact with viewers and media. 8 teams is just not enough. the A-League needed some fresh meat this year and Aloisi is about the only thing that got a few football heads talking, and very little talk at that. the clubs across australia have signed well, but we still need to see big established names from o/s to gain the attention of fringe fans. SFC are the only ones that have used the marquee tag as it should be….a high profile player that has played and won championships at the highest level on a consistant basis. The problem with sydney is that they seem to screw over their players after one season and in doing so indirectly, they are screwing the fans as well.
its good to see aloisi in australia, but sydney need football superstars. the more other clubs hate sydney! the more crowd that will come to the away games.
Michael C said | September 28th 2008 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
Pretty ordinary crowd figures again this week - - - the sooner the ‘opposition’ codes are finished the better……..
Pippinu said | September 28th 2008 @ 9:23pm | Report comment
With MV being penalised 3 weeks in succession with what can only be desribed as dubious reds - perhaps we can add another reason for the downturn in crowds: incompetent, corrupt refs.
Michael C said | September 29th 2008 @ 9:37am | Report comment
putting the stats in place - HAL round 6, 45,122 - - leaves the running total vs same time previously as being
V3 : - 54,700
V2 : - 10K
V1 : + 5K
For individual teams (home teams from Rnd 6),
Phoenix, only 6729 on the weekend, alas, after 10,516 in Rnd 1, the next 3 home matches have produced 6110, 6926 and 6729 - - - and I don’t think the WEllington locals are being kept away by the NRL and AFL finals series.
Phoenix of course last year provided an 80K boost in attendances compared to the prior Auckland incarnation. They (Phoenix last year) averaged 11,683 at home - - this year, it’s down to 7570. SO, already after 4 games, they’re down about 16,000.
btw - their lowest crowd last year was 8039 - - - that’s probably the most telling stat, that 3 games this year have produced crowds less than last years lowest.
CCM drew only 8016. Their lowest crowd least year was 8113 (but in V1 and V2 the lowest crowds were around 5K - - so, whilst ordinary, it is not a shocker, just disappointing. So far this year, avg crowd for 3 games in 9319 compared to V3 12,738 and V2 9828. (that shows where it’s at).
MVFC 22,266 last night. 3 games in, avg is 23,222. MVFC peaked in V2 with a TD avg of 32K, that season still contained 3 OP matches. Last season, MVFC played all 10 matches at TD for an avg of 26K…..so, whilst the per match avg was up, last year the TD avg was down by 6 K. So far this year, it’s dropped almost a further 3K. Blame the AFL finals?? Well, first 3 games last year up to Rnd 6 were averaging 28K. (so, that shows where it’s at).
Ade Utd - - well, we know the crowd they drew for their ACL match - - and so, not too much to read in there, however, - - so far their HAL avg for 3 games this year is 8817, compared to V1 10.9K, V2, 12.1K and V3 11.3K (at Hindmarsh) - - so, even with the ACL going on, 8.8K would be disappointing………..but, as many will point out - - Ade Utd have bigger fish to fry.
Right - - I haven’t draw conclusions - - just presented the facts.
btw - all teams OTHER than the Jets have now played 3 home games (Phoenix have played 4). And the irony. ONly the Jets, of all 8 sides, only the Jets are so far above average for V4 vs V3.
Dave said | September 29th 2008 @ 10:05am | Report comment
MC
2008 Lowest National TV audience for a GF for many years (Is it the lowest since the code went national in early 1990s? and almost 1 million down from 2005 telecast). Just presenting the facts not drawing any conclusions other than all codes have work to do in these challenging times.
Midfielder said | September 29th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
MC
Question ………. you often and with good reason have a go at football people who bang on about the world spread of football given football is in a no loose position ……… then why do you always refer to crowds i.e. something the AFL always must win ……. It works both ways …….. As a friendly note of warning when you measure or rely so much on on key element if that aspect i.e. crowds should ever fall you have little left …….. I am not suggesting crowds are all there is to the AFL but if you grow tried of football folk and their talk of internationals ….. then maybe give the crowd thing a rest for at least a couple of hours.
Michael C said | September 29th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Dave -
hardly on topic Mr.Dave. The original article by Mr.Fink makes no reference to AFL……I have no idea why you’re bringing it up.
Midfielder -
I didn’t write this article - - however, please note that the soccer gihadists have been going on about ‘rising crowds, rising interest’ as sure signs of a very near future take over of number 1 position in Australia…………..and if there are soccer folk who feel that some NRL and AFL folk are guilty of arrogance and requiring being taken down a peg or two………..well, the same goes the other way.
Many of us who find the Aust sporting and especially football landscape so interesting, are very curious about the progression of the FFA and HAL in that market……likewise the strategies and efforts of the NRL and AFL and ARU relative to the marketplace in which they find themselves and the unique or particular pressures on each code.
And so why do I refer to crowds - —
on this thread - - I would have thought it obvious - - have you noticed the title?? Still time left to plug the A-League crowd drain
at other times, well, it’s a pretty good indicator, along with people willing to pay out cash to buy club memberships or sign up for foxtel - - that people are willing to put money where their supposed interests lie. Because, unlike a sample size restricted ’survey’, such as tv ratings - - attendance is real (mostly, we know stories of freebies and ‘inflated’ figures), memberships are real (mostly, we know stories of people signing up their pets), and tv ratings are real………….just as real as ‘potential viewing audience’.
btw - - international soccer and the ACL has stuff all to do with the HAL…….this thread is about the ‘A-League’, the HAL. Stand alone, as a domestic top level soccer league. SO - - try to keep to the topic. Talk of internationals and the like belongs on a different thread.
Dave -
A. present your stats and
B. no surprise that the AFL GF figures are flat when there’s not the same dedicated 2 state or even 3 state matchup - - we know that Syd vs WCE in Melb for the AFL GF was a bonanza………….that’s sports marketing, you don’t always get the best tv viewing combination.
The NRL by contrast this year, will be excited that again, they get Melb in the GF, and it could only be better if it were Storm vs Broncos and thus absolutely engaging all 3 states in their ‘national’ outlook.
Redb said | September 29th 2008 @ 10:54am | Report comment
This AFL GF was for the fans in the heartland. The TV ratings numbers for the AFL Grand Final in Melbourne came in at a staggering 1.3 million.
From the Australian newspaper.
“Seven’s coverage of Hawthorn’s victory over Geelong delivered an average audience of 2.491 million in the five major metropolitan markets and a national audience (including non-metropolitan markets) of 3.273 million. Its metro audience peaked at 2.932 million in the five metro markets and 3.866 million nationally.
The Beijing Olympic Games opening ceremony is the top-rating event of the year with an average audience of 3.3 million. But the AFL Melbourne audience of 1.295 million on Saturday topped the Melbourne audience of 1.028 million for the Games ceremony and is a bigger Melbourne audience than for any other event, including the 2006 Commonwealth Games, since 2006
While the audience is well short of the 3.39 million that watched the 2005 grand final won by the Sydney Swans, Seven will be happy with solid average audiences for a match between two Victorian teams in Sydney (331,000), Perth (329,000), Adelaide (305,000) and Brisbane (232,000). ”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24415716-7582,00.html
Redb
Michael C said | September 29th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Redb -
Dave brought it up………….not sure why??
SOmething about ‘cracks in the facade’ vs ’smell the fear’……
Redb said | September 29th 2008 @ 11:07am | Report comment
MC,
How good was that Grand Final!. Considering its early Saturday afternoon timeslot the AFL GF does pretty well in the ratings.
Redb
Dave said | September 29th 2008 @ 11:20am | Report comment
MC Redb
From - http://www.knowfirst.info/forums/showthread.php?t=25963
AFL GF 08
Melbourne 1.28m
Sydney 382,000
Adelaide 335,000
Perth 327,000
Brisbane 256,000
2007 figures
1 AFL GRAND FINAL GEELONG V PORT ADELAIDE Ten 2,572,000 321,000 1,214,000 272,000 378,000 386,000
Sat TV Ratings
Australian Ratings For September 27
——————————————————————————–
1 Seven’s AFL: Grand Final: Presentations Seven 2.583
2 Seven’s AFL: Grand Final Seven 2.460
3 Seven’s AFL: Grand Final: Post-Match Seven 2.009
4 Seven News Seven 2.006
5 Seven’s AFL: Grand Final Pre-Match Entertainment Seven 1.640
6 Movie: Cars Seven 1.195
7 ABC News ABC 1.109
8 Seven’s AFL: Grand Final Countdown Seven 1.037
9 Australia’s Funniest Home Video Show Nine 0.981m
10 National Nine News Saturday Nine 0.936m
11 Movie: Knight Rider Seven 0.902m
12 Rugby League Final Series Pf2 Nine 0.898m
13 Wild At Heart ABC 0.866m
14 Gardening Australia ABC 0.767m
15 The Bill ABC 0.755m
Collectors (Shorts) ABC 0.704m
Crackerjack TEN 0.556m
“The figures are well down from when the Swans are in the GF in 2005 for West Coast v Sydney 3,386,000 watched and in 2006 3,145,000 watched the rematch. Even the 2004 AFL grand final the first Grand Final featuring two non Victorian teams had a TV audience of 2,796,000 mostly due to higher numbers watching in Queensland”
Numbers are well down 2.46m ave- almost 30% down from 2005. Only presenting facts. Actually wasnt a bad game although a real turn off with so many ads after every goal.
Redb said | September 29th 2008 @ 11:35am | Report comment
Dave,
I’m sure your smart enough to realise that the composition of the clubs that play off in the granny has a big impact on the TV ratings.
It was a great game of AFL footy, a worthy Grand Final. Melbourne continues its mass passion for the game, it would only be a concern if Melbourne did not tune in considering the teams playing.
Redb
Dave said | September 29th 2008 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Redb
Of course. Just giving some stats as MC likes to present plenty.
As said the ratings are not a reflection on the game itself which was a good one. It does however confirm that AFL have plenty of work to do in the northern markets. The mass hysteria in the Melb is matched by barely lukewarm interest in the north.
BTW Those ads after virtually every goal need to be cut back. Part of the joys of scoring is to see the player and crowd reaction which was taken away too often.
Michael C said | September 29th 2008 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Dave -
we know that AFL has lots of work to do in the Northern States - - and comparisons to any GF including Sydney or Brisbane just doesn’t hold water - - that’s a given.
agreed re ads after goals - -
my pet hate is that if a player goes down with an injury and requires a stretcher - we get 15 replays from all angles - - but a goal of the year contender………..we’ve gotta wait until the Sunday footy show to see that!!!!!
That’s why AUst Footy has the ‘world’ at it’s feet re the Pay tv market in this country and why Foxtel are so interested.
Dave -
and btw - thanks for the link - - that’s all I ever ask, I don’t mind facts or even rubbery figures, just so long as they are supported as other than a hunch or a front bar 10pm anectdote……..
btw - MVFC disappointing loss, and they keep dropping to 10 players - - you can’t win ‘em all. As a Melbournian, I’m just pleased that even with 100K and massive ratings for the AFL GF, that MVFC still accounted for almost 50% of the 2 country full round HAL attendance………….and people call us Victorians myopic etc etc.
YOu’d be proud of that too I imagine???
Dave said | September 29th 2008 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
MC
Absolutely. Its up to the rest of the country to pull their socks up, so to speak.
The test for MV and their attendances will come when they move to the football specific rectangular ground (our free kick as you like to call it) where anything over 22,000 would make the atmosphere terrific and with the 2nd Melb team coming in 2010. If those football supporters (currently not attending) cant make a choice btw the 2 teams and with a brand new stadium still refuse to turn up well l’m afraid the HAL will not grow any bigger here.
In terms of ads on after AFL goals there has to be a better way on FTA. Even running banner ads on screen or splitting the screen etc
Koala Bear said | September 29th 2008 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Dave wrote: BTW Those ads after virtually every goal need to be cut back. Part of the joys of scoring is to see the player and crowd reaction which was taken away too often.
Dave,
Not that they mean anything…
nothing to see really — the players only cover avg 19 klms a quarter on regular time. And a lot of it was due to Hawthorn’s 11 rushes conceded.. funny comment made by Caro Wilson as for the added time they are just standing around waiting tor the ump or when the ump blows his whistle for a boundary. As for the mark, the clock still running and the player takes some 30sec to resume play; very boring to watch, just when you want to see a real mark you don’t get to see one in the whole game…. ..
C’ome the Heartssss .. I can’t wait for some really Age Headlines .. “Heart throb” “Heart attack” “Heartless XI” The mind boggles…
~~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | September 29th 2008 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Dave,
It seems the new Olympic Park is right sized for the majority of A League games going forward. MV have been ave 22-26K, that fits pretty well with the 31K capacity. Any big games can still be moved to the TD which lies dormant for most of the spring/summer. I guess that goes for the Melb Vict v Melb Heart games as well.
I’m yet to be convinced 2nd franchise teams work in formerly one team one city markets. I’ve long had serious doubts about the 2nd AFL team in Sydney (the timing is too early), likewise it’s strange a send Brisbane NRL team has not got up in a big market for the NRL. They only way it has worked is Fremantle (WAFL) and Port Adelaide (SANFL), both existing teams in other comps that have been permanently promoted to the elite AFL comp.
Thus Melb Heart as opposed tio Southern Melbourne err…Cross Fc have been dropped. What is Melb Heart’s point of difference? Success may poach Victory supporters I suppose, but its all a bit doubtful especially in this economic climate. The Carlton FC and Collingwood FC were ahead of their time, would have perhaps been a better option methinks? I guess we’ll find out.
Redb
Redb said | September 29th 2008 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
btw…my Mother In law was a Hearts supporter (Midlothian).
“Hearts, hearts, glorious hearts, down in Tynecastle way….”
Redb
Dave said | September 29th 2008 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
Redb
Those football supporters who for what ever reason dont like MV or EM or the colors or that they are too British eg Scottish coach, style of play etc etc. It will interesting to see 1. How many there are and 2. if they will be willing to watch/follow a new team.
The only point of reference (new market and 2nd team introduced) l can think of is in the MLS and LA (admittedly much larger population) - Galaxy were first but didnt connect with the large Latino pop so MLS introduced 2nd team specifically aimed at the latinos and called them Chivas USA ??? Not saying that would be appropriate here but there does need to be clear differences btw MV and the new team to give a choice, not just colors.
Redb said | September 29th 2008 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
re northern markets for AFL, you have break down the prejudices. Sometimes it takes a son to play AFL. This from the Australian today.
“Renouf opens minds to whole new world”
THE AFL could do worse than use the father of Hawthorn youngster Brent Renouf in a marketing campaign in the northern states.
With the AFL set to further its expansion into the rugby union and rugby league heartland on the Gold Coast and in western Sydney, Chris Renouf provides an example that a once closed mind can be opened.
Chris Renouf and his wife, Vicky, who are from New Zealand and now live on the Gold Coast, were as recently as four years ago passionate rugby fans, the type that dismissed the indigenous code as “aerial ping-pong”. Yet nothing could be further from the truth now.
“It was aerial ping-pong to us. A few years ago, that is all it was,” Chris Renouf said.
“But we don’t even watch rugby now. It is just so boring and slow, so much pausing, there is so much nonsense, where as this sport is extraordinary.”
That Renouf had just sat at the MCG with more than 100,000 fans as his son claimed the premiership in only his eighth game with Hawthorn is perhaps reason to explain the exuberance. Yet Renouf said the opportunity presented to his son, when a mate invited him down for a couple of matches at under-16 level, was all he needed to fall in love with AFL.
“Brent went and played with the Surfers Paradise under-16s, and when he came home he said, ‘Dad, I love this game’,” Chris said.
“He was a big boy, but he loved that freedom of being able to get out on the paddock and run and run. I said, ‘go and play’, so he went there the next year and played for the Surfers Paradise under-16s and won a premiership.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24415966-5012432,00.html
Getting people to the game is the AFL’s best trump card, not watching on TV, thus a longer road.
Redb
Michael C said | September 29th 2008 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
i still see many potential similarities with 2nd Melb basketball team as the likely future,
however,
it remains to be seen if Roar and SFC are long term more stable than the Bullets and the Kings.
Michael C said | September 29th 2008 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Redb -
nice article - -
it’s one of those things - - to play, the game provides so much more freedom of movement, freedom of ‘expression’ on the paddock - so to speak. That’s the finding in North America for example as well, that once blokes are drawn down to training and playing, that they more often than not stick with it.
BUt - - the lesson from Sydney circa 1890-1908 was that being the more open game and seemingly being more spectator friendly and more enjoyed by the players wasn’t enough…………..back then it was access to enclosed grounds and then the bonus of the All Golds tour and financial reward - - - these days, there’s other factors.
But, word of mouth from such people help to consolidate gains made, and auskick and it’s good reputation is still a critical plank. (this is my segway)
Interested to hear that 1/4 of auskick participants in Tassie are now Hawthorn supporters - - - generationally, Tassie may actually regard itself as ‘having a team’ within the next 10 odd years should the present arrangement continue. (or, enough of such a connection that it might actually render impossible the full stand alone side).
Michael C said | September 29th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Dave -
I should point out - - NRL prelim final weekend was the worst attended yet for a final 8 structure for the NRL….the first sub 60K result.
So far, their finals agg this year is 206.7K, the worst with a final 8 was 2001 with 269K, so they should surpass that!!!, the next worst was 287.5K in 2000 - - - that might be a very closely run thing…..81,392 last year, that again and they’d get past it. But 5 of the past 6 seasons the NRL managed 300K + aggregates for the finals.
The AFL is interesting -
this year and last, over 570K for the finals, similar to 1998 and 2000. In between there have been all these interstate hosted finals and MCG under reconstruction etc - - so in 2002 for example, Brisbane got to the GF, vs Collingwood - pretty good for tv ratings - - but, only 450K finals crowd.
120,000 extra tickets equates to a fair bit more revenue.
Pippinu said | October 1st 2008 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Now that the A-League has been exposed as a rigged competition - I wonder if that will affect numbers?
Michael C said | October 1st 2008 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
Ah Pippinu,
we know the AFL rigged it to make Grant and McKernan ineligible for the brownlow,
we know the AFL rigged it to allow Dunkley to play in the ‘96 GF,
heck, I know the AFL rigged it in ‘93 to allow Hawthorn (7th) to play a ‘home’ final at WAverley during the day against North Melb (2nd) - - after their president complained that playing North on a Friday night was effectively a North home game and too great an advantage…………
Sport IS rigged.
Redb said | October 1st 2008 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
MC,
I wish you didnt bring up Dunkley in ‘96, I’m still pissed off he got away with burying Hird’s head into the mud of the SCG which effectively got him off the ground in a game we were well in front.
Redb
Dave said | October 1st 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
MC
Well said
Pippinu
I dont share your view on the claim of HAL being rigged. As in any sporting comp there are baffling decisions…however if we were in Germany now that could be different
You would have to provide some pretty decent evidence to show how it was rigged…more so than just MVs 3 red cards. BTW Did you see ECL last week when Beachamps was sent off by the ref and he wasnt ebven near the play?? UEFA have since recinded the card but he was still sent off…unfortunately sh** happens.
Redb said | October 1st 2008 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Dave,
Your more sensible than others on the Roar, Pippinu is genuinely pissed at the FFA/A League as a Melb Victory fan. I actually spoke to him this morning and his anger is real. How will other MV fans feel about this Tiatto decision?
Redb
Pippinu said | October 1st 2008 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
Dave
that’s the point - the red for Beauchamp was rescinded (as any of the three for MV could have been) - but Tiatto has “no case to answer” - that’s a baffling decision to say the least.
The only violent act of the last three weeks, and yet he is exonerated, and MV have their three consecutive red cards.
Stinks to high heaven; FFA has no credibility; the A-League is severely compromised.
Pippinu said | October 1st 2008 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
MC
there is rigged - and then there is Rigged with a capital R.
Serie A circa 2006 was Rigged, and I am now quite fearful that the A-League is also Rigged.
Redb
one thing about the Tiatto decision, and Dave might be able to back me up here - is that we have heard bugger all aobut it! Fox mentioned briefly in the FC show, but apart from that, there has been a deafening silence.
Why would that be??
Dave said | October 1st 2008 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Redb
Been doing some renovations around the house so not up to speed with the situation…but if Tiatto has been cleared then that is a joke as he should have received a suspension of some weeks for his brutality.
As you well know the tribunals/reviewers in which ever code make some baffling decisions…this will just add to the long list.
Will be interested to see if MV have a view on it…my gut feel is nothing will happen in part because Tiatto and KM seen good buddies even after DT hacked KM there was no retaliation from KM. Mutual admiration/fear of each other who knows?? Normally KM would have someone around the throat…