The football war will be fought with smaller wallets

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 8:08am | Report comment

The soccer t/v deal bigger than the nrl deal, your on some sort of fantasy drug, tell your mate that steve, even if we did not have the down-turn this would never happen, the nrl is a t/v gallioth even aussie rules struggles to beat the nrl at the t/v game. The only t/v deals that might go up would be the nrl, why, because they were underpriced in the 1st place, and they can split up parts of the game to make more from it. Aussie rules were over-priced, they should struggle, and the a-league will also start having to flog a dead horse to get money from the deals, the 1st thing you lose in a down-turn is pay t/v, but the older and retired folk who watch league wont be in that catagory. What they should do is bring back packages, like “A” for league “B” for AFL or “C” for soccer, this would sort out the men from the boys. In the t/v world .

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 9:09am | Report comment

I cant dispute figures that you give me TT but i also have said on previous posts that at the moment they (socceroos) are a novelty, this wares thin after awhile and you will get a better idea down the track, its like 20/ 20 cricket, people move on.

Michael C said  | October 14th 2008 @ 10:13am | Report comment

Any FFA broadcast deal will porbably see HAL still safely tucked away exclusively on Pay TV and the FTA vs Pay main bidding would be for the Socceroos component in the hope of a FIFA WC campaign. But, if Socceroos are placed on anti siphoning list, then that limits the bidding by removing the pay tv bid. If it’s all packaged, then you need a FTA/Pay consortium and they’ll split their value propositions accordingly, or the FTA network would most likely on sell as much as possible of the HAL.

Along the way……..a direct feed of Socceroos in Tashkent at 2 in the morning…………..what value do you place on that? What really is the value proposition for the Socceroos? Given the Wallabies for example can sell out Suncorp at the drop of a hat and not get on tv in Melb until midnight.

and re the Pay TV value proposition of increasing subscriptions - - there’s limited value for domestic soccer as most soccer fans will be signed up already to see their EPL and the like - - the saturation global coverage of soccer must diminish the new subscriptions potential for the HAL.

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 10:32am | Report comment

MC - valid points. One thing I must remind you of, of course, is that FTA is already asking Fox for access to one or two HAL matches to play each week. So while I agree that HAL will primarily stay on the Pay platform, don’t underestimate the appetite to have some (though not comprehensive) HAL content on pleb TV.

Interesting point about both time zones and subscriptions which I agree both warrant some thought. On time zones, to my mind there are home Socceroos and big HAL matches that are obvious FTA sweet-spot. Wee-hours games will be a matter of judgement for the networks. I suspect the answer will be live on Fox with extended highlights or a full replay the next morning on FTA. Though depending on a range of factors, FTA may yet decide that at 3am the Socceroos still rate better than info-mercials and run them live. Question is what the deal will do in relation to ACL? Will it be an extension of the predominantly Pay TV HAL deal or will it be attractive to FTA (remember we’re talking a Wednesday night, either prime time or up to 6 hours later depending on location)

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 11:13am | Report comment

And your point about channel 9, what are you saying that if league was lost to 9 then the game is lost, are you also on some sort of fantasy drug, the other channels would love to pick up the rights, probably do a better job at selling the game anyhow, league is already looking at better free to air deals, if nobody picked it up then pay t/v would go through the roof.

Michael C said  | October 14th 2008 @ 11:59am | Report comment

oikee, millster -

as Steve indicated “My prediction is that fans of one code will have plenty of optimism about their chosen sport but dire predictions about the health of others,”

funny that most people seem to bemoan the existing tv coverage and covet some improved coverage from an other channel…………we AFL folk have seen the offerings of each and every primary commercial network & fox……………reality, they’ve all got limitations and compromises and the deal is invariably only as good as the contractual nouse of the sporting administration.

Re the HAL - - so, we’ve what? half way into the 7 years $120 mill deal……when does negotiation in earnest begin?

Would it be about 2 years out - so, in about 18 months time.

AFL also has 3 years to run, so negotiations will be coming up around then - - it’ll be interesting times.

The rest of this HAL season and next year will be super important - - the whole premise of increasing crowds and interest - that has been flown from city hall so proudly over the first 3 seasons - - may be challenged, as appears the case presently 1/3rd through season 4. The HAL may just rely too unhealthily upon the coat tails of the Socceroos - should they qualify - but it might be just the thing required to get through the ‘consolidation’ tough times - - so - from a code wars perspective, the champagne is on ice still pending a few more Asian qualifiers??

The ACL is still interesting, as, for now, in the main, it’s unreliable with only 2 teams qualifying - and no real idea of whom, where and when and into which market you’ll be selling. The value proposition is very vague. And the capacity to generate extra market interest is limited given that the ACL outside of Adelaide at present, for example, has been completely obscured by AFL and NRL seasons and their culmination…..and those 2 codes very effectively overlap each other to absolutely dominate the states.

It’ll be very interesting to see how the parts or the whole are valued, and where the gamblers are willing to roll the dice.

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 12:13pm | Report comment

That was for you millster, you seem like me about futbol as i was to league, not knocking the world game its just funny how easy a nation can get into the world cup , to me it seems like theres really no competition, anyone can play the game and this is why i lose interest, the other sports you have to earn the right to make it, thats where i am coming from millster just so you know.
Like i said before these other codes are no threat to your game, its already got world following, i wont change that nor will M.C, but we can still debate the issues involving the smaller codes. Cheers, and your points are valid.

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 12:44pm | Report comment

To Oikee - You simply dont have to “earn the right” to make it in Union or League or Cricket World Cups (lets leave AFL’s alone ) In fact if you look at the minor teams in the finals of those three World Cups its like a sheltered workshop not an elite competition. I get the feeling of “lets let in anyone who might even be able to name the sport let alone play it”. I just checked the RLWC playing and saw that 6 of the 10 nations competing are from the region people called Oceania (essentially Aust, NZ and pacific islands)… some kind of a lop-sided world that is… And its not only League. Namibian Rugby Union team anyone? Netherlands or Canadian Cricket Teams? I mean seriously… where is even the attempt to qualify from the majority of the significant nations in the world?

In contrast, football has a sophisticated system that is spread between the 5 continental groups of the world which gives all entrants a path to the finals, but which means that the 32 finalists that make it to the World Cup are tried and tested.

True Tah - sometimes upset results are valid too you have to remember. In 2002, Turkey and Korea played some wonderful football. France was also not on song at all and while at the time were top 10 in ranking, they were not top 10 on form. Remember they were not only beaten by Senegal but also by Denmark, a respectable but not awesome country. And again going back to what I said to oikee in the last para, Senegal, Korea and Turkey were there after a proper qualification process. They earned their spot in the finals. They were not just there as a “grab bag” of nations like happens in the other so-called World Cups.

True Tah said  | October 14th 2008 @ 1:13pm | Report comment

Millster,

Im going to start by saying that the rugby world cup is nowhere near the size and importance of the futbol world cup which is hardly surprising, but you may be surprised to hear that in 2011, 8 nations will enter qualifying stages for the World Cup, in fact some nations have already entered into qualifying. I don’t know how many nations, I doubt it would be anywhere near as big as the futbol world cup.

It is far from a “grab bag of nations”, it is actually serious stuff. Like when Portugal had to travel to Uruguay to qualify for the 2007 world cup, Uruguay did everything it could to upset the Portuguese, including restricting their access to proper training facilities. As a consequence they got to play against the All Blacks and show the world that Portugal plays sports apart from futbol.

Just to illustrate the qualifying nature for the Cup, the Makis of Madagascar recently played against Uganda and Botswana to qualify.
For the record, the game between Madagascar and Botswana drew a crowd of 30,000…Ive checked the FIFA website for the Barrea (Malagasy futbol team) drew crowds of about 9,000 and 16,000 for world cup qualifying games against the Comoros and Mozambique respectively at the same ground. Unfortunately Uganda beat the Makis, so they won’t be going any further.

And also, I note the Phillippines withdrew their futbol team from the World Cup qualifying a nation with a population of 70 million, I would have expected that somehow they could afford to take part…however their national rugby team has continued to take part in qualifying for Asia, its probably a minority game there and highly unlikely to make it any further,

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 1:31pm | Report comment

True Tah - I’ll admit to a small amount of revision of my views but not total as your only examples to push back were small nations that would be influenced by the cultural reach of South Africa and surrounds in terms of Union adherence.

Although I have educated myself by going to the qualifiers part of the Union World Cup site and have seen that there is indeed a reasonably solid qualification tournament in place across a number of regions.

I’ve also checked the League World Cup site and seen no such evidence, and a really laughable set of nations.

Shall go to Cricket now to verify my view. I expect the story will be better than League but not as good as Union.

Pippinu said  | October 14th 2008 @ 1:47pm | Report comment

TT/Millster

It’s interesting that for decades we have been talking about “emerging” nations in the world game, and the decreasing gap amongst the very best and the rest, and yet, the more things change the more things stay the same.

The most recent entrant to the very exclusive club of countries that have won the WC was France in 1998 (and prior to that it was Argentina 20 years earlier) - but both had very good WC pedigrees at the time they won it, France having been 3rd on two occasions, and Argentina had been runners-up previously and had contested all WCs bar one.

In 40 years (or 11 WCs), the only time a finalist has appeared in the WC final who hasn’t won it previously (apart from France in 1998) is Holland in 74 & 78.

Turkey deserved to be there in 2002, but unfortunately they were forced to meet Brazil twice, including in the semi-final.

I reckon South Africa presents a great opportunity for someone to come out of left field and appear in the final for the first time, just as the first WC in Asia had South Korea and Turkey in the final 4, something similar is likely to happen in the first WC in Africa, and hopefully this time they will make the final two (needless to say, a few African nations are very well placed to achieve that, and get some return for their excellent record at youth level).

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 2:02pm | Report comment

Pippinu - interesting comments and I am torn. On the one hand I want the football ‘world order’ to be shuffled. On the other, part of the solidity of my arguments that we have such a strong and elite global competition is that is is not some free-for-all dominated by random results. Deep footballing culture, technical brilliance borne of life-long play, multi-generation deep legends and committed investment in all facets of the sport are what is required to achieve the pinnacle. Hence the entrenched nature of the top 5 or 6 nations.

However I would like a number of nations to do well. Australia and France aside (for I am nationalistically biased in terms of those two) I’d love to see an Asian team do well - Korea or Japan most likely. I’d also like Turkey to have another run as the club level of their game is important. I hope the Dutch give it a real shake as they have been promising on skills and tactics for 15 years and have had some of the leading figures in the game, without coverting that to national glory. Mexico is another country that I’d like to do well, and the US for selfish reasons as it would be a boost for the fan base there.

But as per my protestations to Alan N, my definition of ‘do well’ is make it to the top 8 or so. That in itself is a stunning achievement in a truly top-class global code. More broadly, “emerging nations” should be seen as ones like our own - new nations who are rising to be real contenders to participate in the World Cup. Who are shaking up not so much the top 10 in the world, but the 30 or so places below that. Who are starting to REALLY deserve regular World Cup finals participation and, on a good year, who have the skills, flair and technique to perhaps have a good run if things go their way.

Michael C said  | October 14th 2008 @ 2:11pm | Report comment

Millster -

it’s interesting that 100 years of soccer in Australia, and 30+ years of a national league, and having made the FIFA WC finals (group of 16) 34 years ago - - that you keep trying to pass Australia off as ‘NEW’????

chris said  | October 14th 2008 @ 2:43pm | Report comment

Oikee, the reason for the qualification process in football in supply and demand. Each country in the world aims to be one of 32 nations in the world cup. The world order has stuck to 6 or 7 teams, although dont forget that there are some great footballing nations who have come close on a number of occassion but never won the world cup. One example, is the Polish team of the late 70’s early 80s. They are regarded as having one of the greates teams of all time, yet the furtherst they ever they ever got was the semis. There a number of other examples as well which I could use as an example

Oikee, if you cannot apprecatie the drama and beauty of qualification then you are pehaps more one-eyed than i first thought.

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:02pm | Report comment

Maybe we should stay asleep millster, this has been a great little country without soccer. So after all the qualifying and all the play-offs and then to make the top 32 and then sit through all this to get your winner, who according to you will be one of the top 8, I will stick to league with its 3 country poilicy and 12 nations trying to compete , it holds my interest more. One year we might have a country good enough to beat us, at least i can watch the final knowing that the kangaroos will be there maybe. Why would i be interested in the world cup final. (futbol) This gets back to my previous statement, the socceroos hold oz interest if they qualify, once there out then the interest wains. You know that millster , probably better than anyone.
Another point is so league only has 10 teams in the world cup, and like i said good, its over and done with quickly, it does not go on for to long and our team will be there so this holds peoples interest. Have alook at a tri nations tournament for Union, people enjoy a quick close contest, not a drawn out yawnathon. Think boutique, thats the future.

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:16pm | Report comment

In Oikee’s defence it is hard to imagine in size, scale and importance what the football world is if you have grown up and been culturally entrenched only ever in one of the small codes. While I fundamentally disagree with 99% of what he writes, I do recognise that he comes from the mindset of what would be best for League, and tries to translate that across to football.

And to Chris, you’re right. I’d actually say the world order has included about 15 team, but not all of those have tasted the glory of a world cup win. I agree that Poland’s place needs to be recognised, and I also don’t think you can leave out of a ‘world order’ countries like Spain, Portugal, and Holland, and then a second tier who have been ‘there or thereabouts’ or have notable continental prominence (in mind as I write this are Cameroon and Nigeria) and in that way contribute to the power structure of football.

Michael C said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:20pm | Report comment

oikee -

I know in Denmark, despite being a founding member of FIFA - their national team struggles to fill a 40K venue (the renovations are actually reducing it’s capacity) - - and they really only get excited about it all should the national team qualify…………..irrespective of grace, beauty and drama - - for so many people - - self interest comes first…………..and fair enough……..because, no matter how much it ‘means’ - - it’s all a bit meaningless when it’s simply other people and it all means so much more when your team/nation is involved.

Funny how this whole ’smaller wallets’ has turned into a World Cup comparison - - however, given the reliance of the RLWC on Pacific minnows - - I’m curious about the funding mix to get them to the tournament — is their travel/accomodation all covered out of the broadcast rights/sponsorship? How well ’stand alone’ is the tournament? Is there a lot of interest out of Eng/France/Wales to ensure that the finances all stack up fine?

True Tah said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:27pm | Report comment

MC,

a lot of the Islanders guys are not actually from the Islanders, they live in Australia and play in our comps, whether its the NRL, Queensland Cup or the bush comps, so I gather that accommodation and travel would be domestic.

I dont know how its being funded, and I dont know how ticket prices are going.

One thing that pisses me off with the RLWC is the ability of guys to seemingly pick who they want to play for, we had the idiotic situation of guys being named in both the Samoan and Kiwi squads as well.

I take my hat off to the Scottish and Irish Rugby Leagues for their impressive development work in sending immigrants to Australia to one day generate players for their national teams.

If I was the Lebanese Rugby League Id be pissed because they were told for future rugby league world cups they would need to have their own comp - which they duly went out and formed - only to see Ireland and Scotland qualify by fielding Aussies and Englishmen.

Pippinu said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:32pm | Report comment

TT
you might be right about 1974.

But I do recall that El Salvador copped a 10-1 shellacking at the hands of Hungary in 1982 (which was smack bang in the middle of their civil war).

But it clearly was a bit of an anomaly, they only lost 2-0 to Argentina and 1-0 to Belgium.

Incredibly, Hungary didn’t go through to the next round!

I recall quite clearly that Belgium defeated Argentina in the opening game 1-0 (in those days, the reigning champs played in the opener). Hungary defeated El Salvador 10-1 in their first game.

Argentina came out breathing fire, and guess who they played next? Defeated Hungary 4-0, and then Hungary could only manage a draw with Belgium, and that was the end of them. They haven’t done too well ever since.

True Tah said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:40pm | Report comment

Pip,

yeah I dont understand why Hungary hasn’t dominated world futbol since Les Murray might have some answers, having said that, for my mind their most famous sporting moment was in water polo against the USSR in 1956, when the star player ko’d a few of the Soviets and there was blood in the water.

In 1994, Romania and Bulgaria weren’t too bad, and in 1998, Croatia came of age, although given the racist nature of their fans, they should be banned from comps…I know they are an insular people, but cmon, I expect a lot better of human beings in the 21st century for chrissake.

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:43pm | Report comment

Oikee - if international football interest was only when the Socceroos played, why then the TV deals for the total world cup? Why then Fox Sports in Australia not only carrying live, but strongly promoting the European championships (a tournament in which - obviously - Australia doesnt even play!). Why in the 2002 world cup - again where we didn’t qualify - the interest from Ch 9 in selecting some games to show live in prime-time slots?

You misread the football public Oikee. We are not so parochial - because we have a quality product. Yes I’ll support Australia playing in any old shit contest or little code but I won’t watch any other games because it is a waste of time. But give me a global standard product and I’ll watch it all. In 1994 and 1998 World Cups I watched over 50 of the 72 games of those tournaments. In more recent times (2002 and 2006) I’d guess around 30 of the 72 games, because I was of working age and insomnia was less of an option.

Tri-nations is not comparable because it is a collection of one-off tests, kind of bundled together. It is not a real international tournament in the way the various World Cups are.

In any case talking about interest waining in the most watched single event in the world is a joke. And trust me there is global attention on the World Cup Qualifiers. Just as most Aussie and Qatari eyes will be on Suncorp tomorrow, in countless stadia around our globe and in front of countless TV sets there will equally be people glued to seeing their national teams progress (or not) in the global game.

I can’t believe, in any case, that you’d prefer to watch a Kangaroos team make the final of a small code where its opposition consists of NZ and 4 pacific islands, and then a small handful of European nations in which the game is a tiny fringe. Yes Australia will make the final but really… who cares… its like international basketball and the US Dream team - the only interest that could possibly come out of it would be if the Aussies were beaten. Put another way, all it proves is that we follow something that is pretty meaningless everywhere else. I know its hard for you to see as you love League, but to get an equivalent perspective, think of what it would be like if there was an AFL World Cup. Australia would win… but so what???
Yawn-fest to me is playing a game that is so insignificant that you are a shoe-in to win… not because you have to be particularly good… but simply because you have so little real competition.

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:47pm | Report comment

Basketball internationals, yeah right chris, i and many others sat up for that one.

Redb said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:49pm | Report comment

so Millster if that means Australia, NZ , USA and Canada remain on the outside of the ‘world game’ who cares.

Redb

True Tah said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:51pm | Report comment

Millster,

I think you are being a bit harsh on Oikee re: his choice of viewing…the only full WC games I watch are those involving the socceroos, although I watched a few games in 2002, Ive really really given international futbol a lot of goes, in 1994 I would have watched a similar amount of games to what you did, and when it got to the final, it was a limp ending, I tried watching 1998 as well, but by then I guess I realised that there were other games out there, which might not be as big, but just as stimulating.

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment

Oikee - now I REALLY have to get cranky.

Your comment about ‘true sporting nations’ is SO arrogrant can’t you see. How dare we, as Australia, define a true sporting nation as a country that plays only those sports we enjoy? What would we say if, for example, China decided we were NOT a true sporting nation because we don’t play badminton, ping-pong and volleyball?

Uzbekistan, Qatar and countless other countries have people in them like you and I that will follow and play the sports played there. And the great thing about football is it is a common code and we have to respect whoever we come up against. I think this is the best illustration yet of the absolutely blinkered way in which some Australias view our place in the world. We are a relatively minor country, and we are in no place whatsoever to determine who is ‘true’ and who is not. Especially in terms of sporting prowess where, maybe apart from the exception of tennis, we have traditionally decided to compete only in bullshit insular little colonial codes and not in the real worldwide games.

Oh and in closing I noted you said “true sporting nations, also France”. France is far more at the heart of world sports than Australia ever has been or will be. And whiile we’re at it, Qatar and Uzbekistan are both a million times more sporting than Tonga and Samoa and the other shitsvilles that will play in your phony world cup (and it makes me sick to even call it a world cup). So while normally I like discussing with you, this has given me the total shits.

“True Sporting Nations”…. pfffft…. How dare you be so narrow minded.

Michael C said  | October 14th 2008 @ 3:58pm | Report comment

Redb -

remember, the soccer fraternity is ALL ABOUT international ‘validation’………..more so than any other code - - that’s the irony………..there seems a desire to be so universal, 100% dominant because anything but is seen as a weakness (a very much glass 20% empty rather than 80% full mentality).

The reality is that the ‘world game’ shouldn’t care one bit about what people in Aust, US and Canada prefer………but………..to it’s continuing discredit - - the ‘world game’ keeps trying to force itself upon people who are quite content without it………..

ironic really.

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:03pm | Report comment

Chris you dont sometimes look ignorant, you are full stop, you have plenty of games to watch so why do you start crap like this, just grab a tellie like millster and go for it, get your brain on overload if thats your wish, i will talk to M.C about our little games while you go off around the world signing your support. And you have your own soccer blog, go bore your mates there.This is a league blog i thought. You see what happens millster, your preaching has now turned me off soccer for good.

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:03pm | Report comment

RedB - Australia, NZ, Canada and USA are well and truly within the World Game. USA is ranked honourably number 21 and has a decent domestic league. Australia is rising at both club and national levels. NZ has a participant in the A-League, also a domestic league (and will go to the Club world Cup with that team) plus is Oceania’s champion in current World Cup qualifying. Canada is part of the Nth/Central American Confederation and participates in continental tournaments and world cup qualification.

So be assured that all nations are well and truly plugged into the football family, and structure. USA and Australia are seeing rising success given football is not #1 in either country yet; NZ and Canada are suffering a bit more due to smaller size and continental relativities. In any case none of them are in any way shape or form “on the outside of the world game”.

Dave said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:06pm | Report comment

MC

“the reality though is that the bigger the event the more the business of it dominates proceedings. The smaller the event - - perhaps the more the ‘beauty’……and the smaller the event, perhaps the less that the participants are effectively genetic ‘freaks of nature’”

No doubt you already have your tickets to the RLWC then?

It always interests me when people claim in some way (in sports) that by being big and played around the world that it is somehow less worthwhile because everyone does it? If l’m not mistaken individuals make up a team of players and individuals come together to support a team. So those individuals (admittedly of which there are many more in football) dont have the same passion/understanding/devotion as those fewer in number who support smaller codes? I need an explanation?

chris said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:07pm | Report comment

Michael C ,of course Denmakr has other interests. ALthough some of you comments there are very misleading.

Football Denmark is a national passion, AFL in Melbourne times 5. Dont try to suggest otherwise.

Regarding your article above. I think you should improve your source base. The Crowd against malta (couple months back) who are ranked 150 in the world was in the region of 33k or something. The upcoming games against Portugal and Sweden could have sold out 20 fold.

Denmark are now leading their group as well.

Redb said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment

Millster,

Canada have twice the population of Australia hardly suffering from smaller size.

The point is Australia and its fellow other football code countries in the USA, Canada and NZ can survive without an inferiority complex over our FIFA ranking.

Redb

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:14pm | Report comment

Oikee - while this blog was parked under League it actually applies to all codes. And was a good original point.

I’m quite fine with you being turned off “soccer”, as you call it, for good. If a suburban code with a bogus ‘world cup’ is your thing then fine, go for your life. As you know I actually think its a nice little game so I understand the attraction to some extent.

But much as you insult Chris, he is right. A code that is only really played at any decent level in one country (maybe one-and-a-half to do credit to the English Super League) - and even then is not #1 in that country - and who can only pull together 10 teams for a so-called World Cup, 6 of which are from the Oceania region and another 3 old pommie british isles, is just not in a position to be making disparaging remarks about a game which is a global cultural, economic and sociological phenomenon by any standards of measurement. It may all be a yawn-fest to you. But if I have to choose your opinion or that of the bulk of the other 6.5 billion people on the planet, then sorry mate you kind of get lost in the noise…

True Tah said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:19pm | Report comment

Millster,

furthermore, thanks to a freak of geology more than anything else, the Qataris have a wealthy and well developed economy…yet they cannot develop a fair dinkum futbol system which developes their own stars.

Furthermore, how many Qataris have made a name for themself in any sport outside their country? Tongans and Samoans have made names for themslves in rugby, NFL and league, a Tongan won a boxing silver medal, a NZer of Tongan descent won a gold medal at Beijing Olympics. Tim Cahill is in fact half Samoan, and he would be better known than any Qatari futbol player.

Coming from a collective population of 300K, if anything the Tongans and Samoans have overachieved with what they have, being geographically isolated, no natural resouces except the warrior physiques of its athletes.

True Tah said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:21pm | Report comment

chris

how many 100,00 stadiums in Denmark?????

Millster said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:23pm | Report comment

Yeah who would care about Denmark - a nation with a deep history - playing in a global sport when you can watch Brisbane Broncos play some team of mullet haircuts from West Sydney, in a quater-full-if-lucky stadium, in some little game that no-one else kon the planet knows about.

Actually, I’m signing out of this and going for a beer. Too cranky to see straight or to write anything else than more angry responses. My one apology is sorry to Tonga and Samoa. Proud nations and good people. I just used them to make a point about the League World Joke … umm.. I mean Cup…

I just can’t fathom the way some people think. And the wierd thing is I don’t even actually dislike any of the games in question. If we were talking cricket on the other hand…

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:29pm | Report comment

Millster the only person lost in the noise is you, your stupid 6.5 billion is a figure plucked from a recent world population pole, your a complete goose and that post proves it, 300 million asians watching tele 1 billion chinese, your talking crap and you know it, dont flirt with the aussie public or american like you do here because if its shit we call it shit, not Beautiful. Wake up and stop talking a pile of doggies shite. Their is 20 million aussies of which around 5 million have a interest in afl, another 5 million have a interest in league and union, maybe more have a interest in FUTBOL, ONLY BECAUSE WE FEEL SORRY FOR YOU SAD CASES NOT BEING ABLE TO COMPETE AGAINST COUNTRIES THAT WE BEAT ON A REGULAR BASIS, HOWS THAT SOUND, better that i put it like this, it still makes the same statement.

Countries that matter to oz, not your bloody denmark or friggin qatar.

Pippinu said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:34pm | Report comment

Dave
I’m pleased the Americans don’t share our cultural cringe, and are happy to call the world game “soccer”.

I heard on ABC this morning, others may as well, a British lexicographer imploring Australians not to fall back into their usual cultural cringe, to ignore British norms, and to hold fast to our own cultural norms by continuing with the very sound term: soccer.

He gave excellent historical reasons for his entreaty.

Phew - I’m glad we’re all now reading from the same page!

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 4:47pm | Report comment

Where did he go, i live in brisabane you bloody idiot not friggin denmark, are you that stupid. Come back here , you now want me to support denmark, Wake up and stop making ludicrous statements, glad he’s not a shuttlecock supporter, i would end up on a beach in norway selling cocks to eskimoes.

dasilva said  | October 14th 2008 @ 5:21pm | Report comment

I would say that the Soccerroos and the World Cup is popular in Australia. Millster is right about the World Cup 2002 where it attracted strong viewership in an event that australia did not participate in. From memory the TV audience in Australia was bigger for the World Cup Final 2002 then the AFL grand final.

However despite the support for the Soccerroos and the World Cup carnival that comes here once every 4 years I wouldn’t necessary say Football itself is popular. Just look at A-league plateau in crowds. People idea of going to the local footy match in the weekend to be AFL and Rugby and I don’t think that would change for the while (although I could see in the future the Asian Champions League may eventually become a big thing). Only when the A-league has reach the mainstream can we really say that Football has made it.

Midfielder said  | October 14th 2008 @ 6:27pm | Report comment

Second the return of fire

We believed this only happened on the Roar well it happening for real now.

GC17 boss Downie fires a volley back at soccer

Nick Smart

October 14th, 2008

GC17 heavyweight Graeme Downie last night tossed a grenade back at Gold Coast United owner Clive Palmer — labelling him a man in control of a club that has benefited greatly from tax-payer dollars.

Palmer yesterday rebuked using government money to help find a home for the incoming Gold Coast AFL team.

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It was a strange comment when you consider Palmer’s soccer team will play its home matches at the $160 million State Government-funded Skilled Park at Robina.

This was duly noted by Downie last night.

“We all know there are issues such as hospitals and transport, but I think a lot of those issues are always going to be there,” he said.

“But I suppose where he is coming from is from someone who is going to reap the benefit of massive government expenditure on a rectangular stadium, so he is safe. But AFL football, cricket and any other sports such as athletics that require a circular type arena will be the ones disadvantaged.

“I don’t know if that is terribly fair either.”

Downie questioned whether it was fair that only certain sports were looked after.

“He has got the benefit of government spending and only recent significant government spending,” said Downie. “And other sports are not being given the same sort of advantage.

“And it is not just AFL football — the stadium we are looking at is going to be a multi-use stadium for also cricket and athletics. And if the Commonwealth Games bid became a reality it would play a huge role.”

Palmer also questioned whether there was a need for an AFL team on the Gold Coast.

“There are around 130,000 AFL supporters on the Coast but he obviously doesn’t care about disenfranchising those people,” said Downie.

dasilva said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:11pm | Report comment

I don’t think there should be so much of a focus on Football being a world game. Sure having international matches are great and a good attraction of the game but sometimes by the arguments of some people that it seems to be the SOLE reason of liking the game. Football has to stand on its own as a sports. If Football was only played in Australia and no other country I will still be a Football fan as it is a great game. The fact is a lot of people don’t like Football as a game so the fact that it is the most popular sport in the world becomes kind of irrelevent for them. Honestly if AFL was the most popular sport in the world and there was an AFL World cup that was as competitive as the FIFA world cup I may give a curious glance to the event but I’m not going to be an AFL fan or suddenly decide to go down and watch the local AFL match every weekend because of that.

Therefore to criticise AFL and Rugby League because of its lack of international status is not going to achieve anything. Sure AFL and Rugby League, Cricket, Union etc (list any other sports) fans would love to have the same level of international competitiveness like football has but they not going to stop watching their own sport or support Football and the Soccerroos SOLELY because of its international status.

Dave said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:13pm | Report comment

Ren

WC Final 2002 2.7m TV viewers
AFL GF 2002 2.62m

refer;- http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/30/1080544476965.html

dasilva said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:16pm | Report comment

http://blogs.sunherald.com.au/whoweare/archives/2008/09/the_tv_shows_au.html

FIFA World Cup Final 2002 - 2.7 million
AFL Grand Final 2002 - 2.62 million

Dave said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:18pm | Report comment

dasilva

Great minds think alike

oikee said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:21pm | Report comment

Dasilva, there you are very wrong, in rugby league the fans are so caught up in the local game they dont give a shite about the world or international game, yes we have it but the way most people think is we have the best so why bother. Sad but true for league. And thats my point about football and the world game, if you add aussie rules to this then most people dont give a toss about a world football game, interest yes, give a toss, no.

dasilva said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:25pm | Report comment

So far ACL has not caught on for the mainstream audience. However now that Adelaide has succeeded. I’ll think that future ACL in Australia will be very well attended. I’m expecting Newcastle Jets and Central Coast Mariners to be pack for the ACL next year.

Also the ACL is restructured to have the top 2 of the group to go to the round of 16. There is a greater chance that an Australian club will make the knockout stages regularly. I believe if a Melbourne or a Sydney club is playing in the knock out stages of the ACL then they are going to get massive crowds. I do believe the pioneers of Adelaide has just started something big.

dasilva said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:29pm | Report comment

Redb
the crowd figure was just there to prove a point for Oikee who said that if Australia is not playing, people in Australia wouldn’t watch the world cup or any football matches. The fact was the football world cup final that AUstralia wasn’t involve in was more watch then the AFL grand final.

Also I forgot to mention about the ACL - when the A-league expands and we will eventually have 4 clubs playing at the ACL. When that happen things will really pick off.

Redb said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:36pm | Report comment

dasilva,

people watch obscure and well known sports in the Olympics in their millions every four years as well. Big sports events gets coverage in Australia.

The most recent AFL Grand Final featuring a suburb of Melbourne and a regional city of 150,000 people rated 3.3M Australia wide, peaking at 3.9M nationally in 2008. How can that compete with the 2002 World Cup? Makes no sense in a world sense? wtf?

Redb

Midfielder said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:42pm | Report comment

Redb

I posted both articles …..Plamer & the AFL response…. IMO Plamer is insane to take on the AFL by himself ……… maybe says more about him than anything else …….. as for a fight with the AFL noway football would get smashed and it goes against what Obie One wants regarding the cross coder.

Its in football intertest to stay out of RL’s & AFL’s battles and just sit and build its own product over the next ten years.

Dave said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:53pm | Report comment

Redb

Getting very defensive very quickly…just confirming dasilvas recollection and pointing out that no Aussie was in sight in that 2002 final yet it beat the biggest game in Oz that year. Imagine if the Socceroos were playing!

The 2006 WCF was played at 5am again with no Aussies…not much of a comparison but…6.5m watched the Socceroos v Croatia match which began at 5am…not too bad me thinks http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2006/4040/

Redb said  | October 14th 2008 @ 7:58pm | Report comment

bullshite Dave, Clive Palmer has drawn first blood here. Typical of a ‘tycoon’ - wont he just love the salary cap when it prevents him from getting GCU into the ACL to further his business interests.

By attacking Aussie Rules he is showing a bias that it is against his business interests - make no mistake.

Redb

Dave said  | October 14th 2008 @ 8:02pm | Report comment

Redb

So the AFL(Melb) media take their opportunity (according to you) to hyperventilate over Palmers challenging words re AFL govt handouts and will flog this to death but…provide minimal coverage of real football news such as the WCQ vs Qatar? Will be interesting to see if what you say pans out?

dasilva said  | October 14th 2008 @ 8:06pm | Report comment

I would only consider Football making it in Australia when the A-league can stand on its own and sell the product football by itself without needing Soccerroos to subsidise and prop up the league.

Dave said  | October 14th 2008 @ 8:15pm | Report comment

Redb

Interesting how all the AFL media and hype is ok because its just part and parcel of a competitive sports market eg AFL the game that made Oz yet if someone has the gall to stick it back to them…well…its the end of the world…how dare they! Can AFL only be criticised by the AFL media …but when someone from outside has a go…whoaaa Palmer made be taking the wrong strategy but hey nice to see someone saying what he thinks about AFLs freebees. l’m sure GCU will get a hostile reception in old Melb town when they visit next year…in fact l’ll throw a few boos myself if it helps the AFL boys feel better.

Dave said  | October 14th 2008 @ 8:25pm | Report comment

Redb

Are you seriously suggesting he should build another stadium on th GC when the other one lies dormant over Summer?? Sounds like he just happened to have good business sense and made his move at the right time. Think you’re over reacting just a tad here…sounds like we have someone who shoots from the mouth (without perhaps thinking first sometimes). Should add a little color and controversy and equality to the AFL/NRL dominated east coast media

Redb said  | October 14th 2008 @ 8:29pm | Report comment

Dave,

Spin again. I’m sure you realise Palmer is about business, GC17 are a competitor, this was not a random comment. Quite deliberate and timed when the GC17 bid has gone into the AFL whilst he throws his dollars at his GCU club.

The stadium issue is rubbish, the AFL has already come and said it will redevelop Carrera due to a lack of govt funding for a new oval stadium on the GC. AFL freebies? - need I remind you that Melbourne’s new rectangular stadium is being built with Victorian Government money, not a cent from the FFA or Melb Victory!

Redb

Redb said  | October 14th 2008 @ 8:33pm | Report comment

Dave,

And this comment from Palmer….

“We will be running Gold Coast United on a fraction of that and it will be better supported than the AFL and provide better entertainment.”

Really?

Redb

Redb said  | October 14th 2008 @ 8:46pm | Report comment

Midfielder,

i’m sure your fishing here, but Palmer is the backer behind GCU is he not? Many of the soccer heads have banged on about his Asian business interests. I think the first GCU game will be in Beijing such is his commitment to the Gold Coast.

Redb

Midfielder said  | October 14th 2008 @ 9:08pm | Report comment

Redb

Your right about my fishing as I am interested in your comment pretaining to his business interests.

I must go now as the wife is on the war path about painting the bathroom …… but if nothing else this guy is going to make life interesting …….. he has also achieved the unachievable and the GCU have not kicked a ball as yet but already the GCU are the most hated team in HAl …… more than Chopprs and coach Hacker …….. now thats not bad for a team thats been around for less than two months.

As an aside he (Palmer) is said to have told Obie One he has more money in the bank than Obie One ……. so if nothing else an interesting guy.

jimbo said  | October 14th 2008 @ 10:50pm | Report comment

Pippinu,
the games administrators - FIFA - have for many years instructed football associations around the world to call the game football - not soccer.

The game’s governing body in this country went to a lot of trouble to change their name to Football Federation of Australia and have instructed all the state bodies to do the same.

Its not just a cultural whim for ye olde England or to not imitate the old You Is of A.

As a player, manager, administrator and committe member, I will follow the sport’s governing body’s guidelines.

You lot can call it whatever you like (as you often do).

ren said  | October 14th 2008 @ 11:56pm | Report comment

jimbo

i hope you enjoy-
- largest player participation - both male and female
its the only game played by girls where there not maligned as being dykes
- female football is the fastest growing sport in Australia
see above
- largest number of sporting clubs, administrators and officials –all ages, all levels
throw in the girls and play with only 11 on the ground and there is bound to be
- greatest international appeal
probably true (maybe basketball tho, think yao ming in china, bigger than soccer?)
- largest international TV audience
this is Australia, i dont give a sh*t
- largest and most culturally diverse fan base
i’ll give you that one
- most open minded and non-racist fan base
does that include all the hooligans
- most intelligent supporter groups as per the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale
footballers are better at their six times table (I learnt by watching the footy)
- most likely to succeed in a marital relationship and not beat their wives
cos homosexuals dont have wives
- most likely not to get drunk and start a fight
soccer players are to soft to get in a fight
- most likely to have a sense of humour
well hopefully you will find this funny

oikee said  | October 15th 2008 @ 8:00am | Report comment

Alright, i might upset some people on here but Jimbo has hit the nail right on the head. What he is telling you is that its a girls game and this should be the future of the game, face the facts and someone mentioned that you have 130 countries who all compete around the same level, so thats nil-all draw, your paying players millions not to score a goal.? So what we should do is make soccer a girls game and support the game so the woman can make a living out of the game, Hold on i am not finished, and you can and will have your comments , ok so now we need a game to replace soccer for men, Now M.C. will love this , they are playing a international aussie rules with a soccer ball where the game is 5 times, yes dave 5 times more exciting than watching a frustrating nil-all game, and i think that this game can sweep the world very quickly because it can be played on rectangle ovals as well as round ones. And we have good body contact and you see goals being scored.

Maybe this will be the future. All they need is the billionaires on board to get it off the ground. If you gave billionaires the choice i know which one i would rather watch.

The most exciting thing about soccer is the coaches, this is why you always see them in their highlight packages.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 8:38am | Report comment

oikee -

we actually floated that concept a while back, I wrote a mostly but only mostly tongue in cheek article about the potential new world game - - of international rules.

Not that I’d be totally happy with it, as compared to Aust Footy, there’s certain compromises I don’t like (one of which is the high marking isn’t as good, the ball tends to be delivered well only over 20-40 m range rather than the longer 60m penetrating kicks which has a real impact upon defensive strategies etc).

At any rate - - the suggestion was that that game does have the ingredients far more so than Aust Footy (as we know it) to ’sweep the world’.

And that is one reason I think the AFL has been fairly careful about over promoting it and over committing to it - - as the reality too is that the IR game is way too similar to Gaelic as compared to Aust Footy.

But - - you are absolutely correct that it could well be the game most likely.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 8:48am | Report comment

There was a silly comparison of the main land capital ratings (peak or avg??) for 2002 FIFA WC final vs AFL GF.

What’s that supposed to proove? We know that for about 10 years that soccer AUSTRALIA wide has more pariticipants than RL and Aust Football combined. Surely, we should be comparing the FIFA WC final tv audience vs the COMBINED NRL and ARL GF audience???

Silly comparison.

And the 2003 RUWC Final topped 4 million…………and the AFL GF in 2001 was 2.6, then to 2.62 then to 2.96 in ‘03 and 2.80 in ‘04………………really, what does it all proove??

btw - 2002 was the lowest attended Top 8 finals series that the AFL has conducted (449K)………for whatever reason, 2002 Finals series wasn’t capturing the AFL supporter base ‘imagination’……….perhaps that was the impact of a FIFA WC year!! - - -so what happened in 2006?

Midfielder said  | October 15th 2008 @ 8:57am | Report comment

Interesting article ……… slightly off topic but well worth a read especially to the RU bloggers…..

A MONTH ago to the day, Nudgee College student Nick Price (R) was playing on the wing for the Australian Schoolboys rugby union team against Fiji at Suncorp Stadium.

A MONTH ago to the day, Nudgee College student Nick Price was playing on the wing for the Australian Schoolboys rugby union team against Fiji at Suncorp Stadium.

And just two weeks ago, Price — who was presented with his Australian jumper by Wallaby Lote Tuqiri — was on a tour of New Zealand and Tonga with his rugby teammates before a bout of chicken pox brought him home.

He was considered on the road to becoming a Wallaby, but today the versatile youngster, who grew up playing both rugby and Aussie rules, has dealt Australian rugby a big blow by signing with GC17.

The 17-year-old speedster, who played for Caloundra FC and the Queensland under-16 Scorpions in Aussie rules last year — made the decision to commit himself to AFL after signing a lucrative three-year deal with the fledgling club.
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“It has taken me quite a while to make the decision because I quite enjoy playing both rugby and AFL,” said the midfielder.

“It just came down to the enjoyment and that is what I based my decision on, and also being a part of a new club was enticing.

“It has been a decision I have had to make for over two years and there have been a lot of people trying to influence my decision.

“I enjoy both games the same, but I love the freedom and space that you get in AFL.”

The Buderim product said he would relish the opportunity to play for the Gold Coast in the TAC Cup next year and VFL in 2010 before entering the AFL a year later.

“It is going to be exciting and I can’t wait — it will be good for my development,” he said.

Brisbane’s highly rated 18-year-old Joseph Daye has also signed on the dotted line for GC17.

Premiers Hawthorn were interested in drafting Daye in November’s national draft, but the 194cm defender thought the Gold Coast Football Club was the better option.

“I had to make a decision overnight,” he said. “I was waiting to hear back from Hawthorn and I had to make a decision between them and the Gold Coast.

“But they couldn’t guarantee anything and I decided to go with the Gold Coast and set up down here.”

Daye said it was a dream come true to sign with an AFL club.

“Ever since I was young I have always wanted to play AFL so it is exciting to get into it this way through GC17, because it is different,” he said.

“I know most of the boys who have already signed so that makes it a bit easier.

“We are all looking forward to it and think it is going to be a great journey.”

Daye has footy in his blood and former Essendon great Michael Long is his godfather.

“My dad and him were raised by the same family so they are pretty much brothers,” he said.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 9:37am | Report comment

Midfielder -

from yesterday -

‘professional management’ and a national league.

Soccer in Australia was the FIRST to have a national league. Their management back then was as ‘professional’ as anyone elses. Or not. All sports were mostly amateur in approach - - with players working ‘real jobs’ and training at night. The NSL circa 1977 - well, that on the back of FIFA WC finals appearance in 1974 - - you can’t just dismiss that - - and 30 years on you strive to claim only the last 3 years matters……………..it all seems a bit feeble and history revisionist to me.

but - again, for anyone wanting to wash their hands of soccers own ineptitude and failings prior to HAL V1 - - then those people must also be willing to relinquish any whinge about the supposed ‘repressions’ of their game during that time……….as, you either ignore all the history - - or you don’t ignore is at all.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 9:52am | Report comment

Midfielder -

interesting article about young Price.

That’s the reality coming through as well via the International Cup - where the fellows in the main who have taken up Aust footy, quite often as adults in the US for example were 23 years old is over the hill - - but in Rugby/Soccer countries as well - - is that the freedom of movement and the greater range of skills (often combining the childhood co-playing of Rugby and soccer into a single game in time deprived adulthood that uses the skills learned and developed through childhood).

So when Millster put’s the following to Oikee :
I do agree though that GAA / IR is an exciting game from the little I’ve seen. I’m curious though as to why Rugby League would not be your choice as the next world game? Why did you choose an AFL-type game?

My final comment is that before saying “now we need a game to support ’soccer’ for men” we need to ask the men of the world whether they want to change from football to something else. The overwhelming majority I suspect will say no, there is no replacement wanted or needed.

There’s slowly growing a recognition of there being a niche market at very least for a bridging football code in sitting in between soccer and the Rugbys/Grid Iron.

In essence, if you bundled the football codes as a single product range from ‘Football Inc.’ - you’d suggest that this has been the market weakness in the product offering - - (outside of Australia). Personally, I reckon all football codes would benefit in some ways (but not all ways) from a stronger mid range football product internationally.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 10:00am | Report comment

Midfielder -

the old VFL (circa 1970s) had it’s own issues and was buried in Victoria centric management that was to result in the VFL and clubs being on the verge of financial collapse come the 1980s. The whole structure had to change - because of mis management. It was only a very small number of visionaries - such as Alan Aylett (former North Melb champion and VFL President) who forged ahead with the ‘national league’ for Aust Footy.

Don’t believe too much stories some people like to present of the AFL being wonderfully run and wonderfully managed………..they’ve got as much wrong as they have right…………the main thing they didn’t have to battle was ethnic based divisions………..or the 2 Rugby codes and their socio-demographic based divisions……………but, was that good management or purely circumstantial - - I’d favour the latter - - so, don’t go giving the VFL/AFL too much credit!!!!!

oikee said  | October 15th 2008 @ 10:11am | Report comment

I dont give your game any credit M.C buts its run well now, has to be to survive these days.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment

Millster and Oikee

Nil all draw in V3 of HAL -
84 H&A matches -
9 nil all draws - representing 11% of results.

Most common result being a 1-0 (or 0-1) result - 20%
2-1 at 18%
1-1 at 12%

However - 36 games had results with AT LEAST one side scoreless - - 43%.

And if you work on the likelihood that any given team in a given match might NOT score a goal - that was 27% likelihood. So, supporting team A meant that the averages suggest that 1 in 4 matches you attend, that you team won’t score…….likewise the opposition - - and 1 in ten matches - those 2 align and you get a scoreless draw.

The per match goal average was 2.62, thus, per side, a 1.3 goal average per game.
The 0-0 and 0-1 matches accounted for 31% of matches and 8% of goals - the other 69% of matches account for 92% of goals.
on the scale
50% of games contained 22% of goals (i.e 49 goals for 42 games)
73% of games contained 48% of goals (i.e. 106 goals for 61 games)

the last 27% of games contained 52% of goals.

33% of matches were drawn

24% of matches were decided by 2 goals or more (remembering of course that a 2 goal lead requires 3 goals to defeat - - not necessarily so in AFL or NRL regarding tries - as there are secondary and even teritiary scoring means)

—————-

note - the above doesn’t really mean anything. It’s just so that you know exactly what you’re talking about.

—————

I’ve had people go on about 80 point plus results in the AFL………but, for as bad as they might be, they’re about as common as a 3 goal thrashing in a soccer match. Draws in the AFL obviously are far less common and zero scores are not seen professionally.

Anyone wanting to try to lure me to soccer has to be able to sell to me that I should be content with one third of matches being drawn………and 1 in 10 being a nil all draw. Alas, the one and only game I DID attend happened to be an exceptionally boring 0-0 result. I know that is not entirely representative of the code…..but, am I rushing back…..nah!! If I didn’t have a mortgage, 3 young kids etc etc - would I be rushing back with a bunch of mates………….who knows.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 10:52am | Report comment

Oikee -

the IR games on TV - I ‘m not sure. They’re thus far been on FTA.

I’ve attended a couple over the years - - and it’s nice fun. I’ve been to the MCG with 60,000 for a game - - and no one took it all too seriously - - it’s nice to cheer on the Aussies, but, if we win or lose…………it really didn’t break our hearts.

It’s funny like that - - there’s always people telling us what the IR matches ARE NOT………..but they seem to miss the point………..what they are is just a nice excuse for Australia and Ireland to play each other, for guys who otherwise don’t get to represent their country to do so - - and to have something to watch towards the end of October other than the nags.

oikee said  | October 15th 2008 @ 11:22am | Report comment

I agree with some things you say millster but your lack of knowleadge about league makes me think you are scared of league surviving, this is one thing league is good at, its like a cockroach after all the other games are dead and buried league will still be around.
The point you make about league being a small game , yes i agree, being a weak or weaker game, then i know your lack of knowleadge is some what sheltered. At the highest level the game has no equal, and the nrl comp is at this standard, even super league is reaching this standard. But like you said its only 2 countries with some islands. And i also tell you on a regular basis that it has been downtroding for a century by union.

Now if your game of soccer had been in the same boat as league your game would be nowhere near what it is today, lets say france took soccers asserts and told its country it cant play the game, and england squashed the game down , do you really think that soccer would be in the position that its in now.

I love the history of league, all its knockers, all its hard times and the fact the game was even banned from the armed forces in england up until 10-12 years ago. The fact that league has had to compete with a sport much simular to its game is even testament to what it has acheived and what it is acheiving today. When you can come back to me and give me any other sport that has gone through so much turmoil then i might take notice, so the under-dog tag has special meaning in league.

League has done it tough over the last century and has been giving no favours, theres no billionaires on the horizon, but we have proved we dont need them, the game is either loved or hated. Who am i to judge, let the people decide , if the game survives another 100 years good. We still might merge with union one day, who knows. At the momnet the game is the best its ever been, i intend to take full advantage of that.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 11:25am | Report comment

The “last 27% of games” was no implication of chronology, just that I’d refered to 73% of games providing 48% of goals and that left a ‘last’ 27% of games worth of goals - so to speak - to be considered in that break down.

One thing I’d love to see is stats on come from behind wins - - in AFL - because of the quarter by quarter display of scores, it’s pretty easy to get an overview - - however, that isn’t a guarrantee of the full picture due to intra quarter happenings.
In soccer, at least one could look at the likelihood that a half time lead is overturned.

The soccer element of chances is critical to the game - I recognise that,

for the V3 H&A series -
2380 attempts on goal (meaning 220 goals - inclusive of penalties and own goals represents a 9.2% success rate).
Attempts on target - 977, thus 41% of attempts were deemed on target, and 23% success rate for these on target).

Keeper saves equate to 531 - i.e. 22.3% of all attempts, and 54.4% of those on target.

However, many ‘on target attempts’ are trifling to say the least and present a straight forward save.

Corners - still seem a fair indicator - as, the defence would prefer a clean take and to not concede forward set play possession.

Corners - 821.

so, that runs at 9.8 a match.

I can present to you a count back of HAL V3 for all drawn matches using corners to establish a winner.

I still reckon that’d add a great dynamic to the game. That you could be 1-0 in front, but, behind on corners, so, instead of being 2 goals from defeat, you’d actually be only 1 goal from a possible defeat.

That would introduce a whole new level of potential goal for goal ‘effective’ lead changes that presently soccer lacks.

That’s when AFL matches are at their best - an offset scoreline meaning that goal for goal results in a change of leader with each shot - - that becomes so absolutely pulsating - when it happens.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 11:36am | Report comment

btw - for the 0-0 results in HAL V3 - corrected results using ‘corners countback’

Round 1 Perth Glory 0.6 d Newcastle Jets 0.2
Round 2 Perth Glory 0.5 d MVFC 0.3
Round 3 Perth Glory 0.2 d SFC 0.2

(note - in Rnd 5, SFC 1 d QLD 0, but, with corner countback, SFC would’ve been sweating more so with 1.0 vs 0.8, a conceded goal would have ensured that SFC would’ve desperately needed an answering goal as they would be 8 corners down on corner countback).

Round 7 Perth Glory 0.11 d Ade Utd 0.5
Round 12 MVFC 0.7 d SFC 0.3
Round 14 CCM 0.4 d NJs 0.3
SFC 0.5 d Qld 0.4
Round 20 QLD 0.3 d SFC 0.1

——————

rather changes the Perth Glory year - suddenly after 3 rounds they’d have had 3 wins (without scoring a goal………but, hey, you can get a point from a draw without scoring a goal as it stands now).

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 11:44am | Report comment

oikee -

I must admit, for me, the nil all draw and no winner and no song at the end of the match and the only decent crowd roar for the posted crowd figure………..all a little deflating,………….
at Easter this year I attended my first ever drawn AFL match live in person……..no song, a deflating not to win, but, there’d happened so much, being in front, behing behind - that there was real relief at at least not losing. There’d been certainly plenty of scope for yelling, cheering and getting it off your chest…………..but then I had to explain to the kids that no one had won………….and it occurred to me that I couldn’t consciously justify to them if it had been a nil all draw in a soccer match - I would really struggle to justify the point of it all…………”son, no one scored and no one won”, “dad? why did we come then?” “Son, I was hoping you wouldn’t ask me that”…….;-)

(all good fun Millster - - as you say, it’s what you are used to and all that).

btw - both Oikee and Millster - the report the other day that Italy are for the time being not going to request away team tickets for their fans - i.e. non supporting Italian fans following their team ‘internationally’ - - - - due apparently to the actions of right wing hooligans/trouble makers whatever (’ultras’??). It’s all a bit sad when this is the result - i.e. actions of few penalise the many.

oikee said  | October 15th 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment

Whats being ignorant about nil-all K.B iit is what it says, nil -all, even a ignorant person can understand this is what you should be saying, and to decide games on nil-all, thats what you are brought up on, nobody else who follow other codes, if you get your rocks off on nil-all then good for you.

dasilva said  | October 15th 2008 @ 1:25pm | Report comment

oikee
Having artificial means to break a draw will be damaging to the game. If you add penalty shootouts, extra time or as MC suggested Corner counts or corner shootout to determine victory will actually encourage defensive football. People then realise that if you play out 90-120 minutes and still win and will set up their tactics to achieve just that if they know they are playing for an superior team.

Stopping defensive style football is by increasing the value of win. It used to be 2 points for win and 1 points for a draw. Now it is 4 points for a win and 1 points for a draw. This has proven to increase attacking play and the amount of 0-0 draws has decrease in World Cup (until knock out stageS) and the Leagues around the world. Arsene Wenger suggested having points based solely on goals scored and disregarding victories etc. That may work in encourage attacking play however that would be going too far and destroy the credibiltiy of the game.

In the end you can’t remove a 0-0 draw. There are also good matches that are 0-0 draws and football fans can appreciate it. I understand if other people don’t like it but it is part of the charm of the game. If both sides are attacking or if one side is dominating and the other side is holding on to dear life can be incredibly fun to watch. Watching Adelaide holding on against Changchun Yatai to qualify to the quarter final of the ACL was intense nail biting stuff. If you don’t like it fine but at least have some understanding why people can enjoy it.

dasilva said  | October 15th 2008 @ 1:39pm | Report comment

Millster

I agree. I felt completely safe in any Football games. However attending Cricket with a group of friends. Racial abuse has occured everytime. Fans has always been ejected from the cricket for drunken, abusive and violent behaviour everytime there is a cricket match (and always to greater number then a football match) but it is always over look or just bunch of aussie ockers having little too much to drink and having a bit of a laugh/fun.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 1:44pm | Report comment

KB -

nil all is what each team is given to start the match. A bit sad when they haven’t managed to add to that. For all the ‘beauty’ or ‘charm’ of a given game (and don’t imagine for a minute that other codes are devoid of ‘beauty’ and ‘charm’ such that an ‘inflated’ scoreline as you might put it would in any other way diminish the beauty or charm or the like of individual actions) - - at the end of a season, all that matters is the w-l-d points distribution and the dead lock breaking goal difference or percentage or score ratio or whatever you want to call it or use. Who cares about the beauty in a nil all draw………..1 in 3 matches drawn just makes betting on soccer a real pain in the rrrrrr’s!!! (i.e. it’s like having 30 red, 30 black and 30 green on the roulette wheel!!).

Midfielder -

re sponsors - - the interesting thing is that AIG - - have been bailed out, some of us might have thought that their sponsorship with Man Utd might be under the microscope………..and today we hear that they are about to come on board as jumper sponsor of the Richmond Tigers AFL club.

perhaps that’s the clearest indication yet that for each market, sports sponsorship can offer astounding sponsor value - still, and that in Australia, the AFL and NRL have particular strengths in particular(specific) market break ups of Australia that ensure that they still provide good value well and above that of any competiting football codes (in Australia).

da Silva -

if it encourages ‘defensive football’ as a bad thing, then how sad is it that so many cut throat finals in soccer tournaments DO have just that problem.

btw - a ‘corner countback’ would actually encourage attack - - and not just wishful long range shots, as they are more easily defended. You only draw corners invariably by putting the defense under pressure. It would encourage attack and also mean that a 1 goal lead could less easily be ’sat upon’ and then close up shop and play defensively safe in the knowledge that it’ll take 2 goals to rob you of at least a point.

btw - a ‘corner countback’ is not really artificial, as it is representative of activity within the match - - a penalty shoot out is artificial I grant you that as it occurs ‘post match time’ and goals scored there - - they surely aren’t counted in ‘golden boot’ awards are they?? In a sense though, NOT having some form of ‘corner countback’ can provide an artificial result - as you indicated, that one team holding on for dear life can eek out a result that is only so meritorious……..but again, if you’re happy watching 90 minutes of ‘keep things off’ as one team right from the outset is seeking only to count down the clock from the kick off to the final whistle………….riveting!!!! (and some how artificial too).

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 1:57pm | Report comment

Millster -

I love test cricket but am glad that whilst we can celebrate a maiden over - - we generally these days have test run rates around 3 an over and teams try to take the proactive approach about not just occupying the crease, but scoring heavily whilst there…………….’cos…………..despite the beauty and charm………….it’s a game about winning…………..and, I hated test series with 3 matches from 3 drawn, …………………and some of the test matches at Faisalabad were a joke - - - such as 1980 when Aust made 617 and Pak replied 2-382, match drawn…………………yep,…….I’m evil, I didn’t find that at all interesting, as, any stats minded person knows that stuff all of the stats generated in that match mean anything, but, it did allow Rod Marsh a 10 over spell of bowling!!!

So, I make no apologies for feeling that elite professional sports is about winning……..as the objective………..irrespective is some soccer folk attempt to portray such an attitude as a character flaw……………the irony is that the same people will accuse AFL clubs of ‘tanking’, when soccer is chock full of teams going out there not actually trying to ‘win’ games……….;-)

Millster said  | October 15th 2008 @ 2:06pm | Report comment

MC - ultimately I admit we agree about trying to win. And over the course of a season, of course, clubs try to maximise their position - to ‘win’ as much as possible even if some points are gained as draws.

I guess we’re arguing in black and white so I’ll admit I see what youre saying. However when you look under the stats its very rare to find a game in which no attacking occurs at all regardless of the scoreline. A nil score most often occurs where one or both teams determines to play a counter-attacking game - to be very careful and structured in defence and try to set up a couple of opportunities on the break during the course of the game. If those don’t come off (and your own stats show that only 9.2% of shots are successful) then you have a nil situation. But that is a legitimate calculated risk.

I incidentally don’t think defensive football is intrinsically a bad thing. I know KB is not happy with Pimbo due to his tactical conservatism, but to me it is a legitimate thing to go out to defend. I actually think that as HAL teams venture more into the ACL we have to have this mindset as we need to effectively hold the fort against better/richer teams and effectively utilise the few counter0attack opportunities we will have.

dasilva said  | October 15th 2008 @ 2:15pm | Report comment

MC
I actually agree that when it comes to the knock out stages in the last two world cups. Due to the sudden death nature teams are more cautious and play more defensively. Then again these knock out matches have the bonus of having more tension then a more high scoring match in a league or group stage matches which makes it a different experience and make this more defensive playing interesting to a degree. I agree it is a problem but it’s not an unforgivable one and it was refreshing to see a team like Spain to waltz through the knock out stages with enterprising football.

However to add artificial means in every game including league matches and group stages match will bring about more cautious football in all matches.

Corner - like Millster say milking corner is a very good defensive skill. When you are defending a lead. Go straight to the corner flag. Stay there - opposition comes straight to you - hold off them as long as possible and then you kick the ball to their shins ball comes out for a corner. Then repeat. A tactic that Adelaide use often in the ACL group stages. Not good to watch. Having a corner count to decide games would be disasterous and encouraging this even more.

Millster
Thanks for the correction - kind of embarrasing.

Koala Bear said  | October 15th 2008 @ 2:29pm | Report comment

I don’t mind a 5 day drawn Cricket Test if it’s filled with skill, tactics, drama, and sometimes you hope it will rain. It can be great theatre.. I can relate to that as it can be the same as a Football match home and away in an ACL fixture, played over two legs …

~~~~~~~
KB

Millster said  | October 15th 2008 @ 2:36pm | Report comment

KB - you’re right. Plus add to that in terms of tension the following scenario.

Australia is hopelessly behind on runs and 9 wickets down on he last day. 2 overs to go, and we have at the crease our number 11 (who is a complete muppet with the bat) and, say, our wicket-keeper who has managed to stay in and hold a bit of the strike. The opposing team are obviously throwing their quickest and nastiest bowlers at this scenario.

Now tell me Michael C that those 12 balls are not going to be filled with tension, especially the ones that ‘Aussie #11 muppet’ face, and tell me you won’t be delighted if Australia were to hold out for the draw? Without following cricket I’m sure two or three of Australia’s most legendary moments in the game have been salvaging a draw, not getting a win.

Koala Bear said  | October 15th 2008 @ 2:43pm | Report comment

Millster,
Pimbo’s treatment of Nicky Carle is what most disgusts me about the man and his appraisal of a wonderful talented skillful player.. Pimbo is depriving me of that theatre Nicky always brings to a game; whatever team he plays for.. He is exciting to watch ..

~~~~~~~
KB

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 2:55pm | Report comment

Millster -

cricket - I remember well enough the efforts of Mike Whitney in holding out the ‘rampant’ Richard Hadlee (as he had been esp v Aust in Aust at that time) - - to secure a highly meritorious draw……………..but, gee, a whole lot more scoreboard action had occurred in that game than in a soccer 0-0 draw.

Michael C said  | October 15th 2008 @ 3:12pm | Report comment

oikee -

ahem………in AFL, 4 pts a win, 2 for a draw, 0 for a loss……..it’s just that 2 draws in a season of 176 games is a very low ratio.

btw -

it’s funny when we try to define things as ‘artificial’ - as, all sports is artificial, i.e. the result of ‘artificial’ rules that regulate activity into a ‘game’. What’s more artificial than ‘off-side’?

Millster said  | October 15th 2008 @ 3:39pm | Report comment

MC - agree to some extent about ‘artificial’… and all things are equally artificial. Offside is no more artificial than boundary thows over the head in AFL or forward passes in the Rugby codes or the cut of the grass on a golf green. Yes at the deepest philosophical level all sports is just an abstration, a subjugation of the competition of life. Even the purest sports in this sense - the blood sports - are bound by rules and are not ‘free-for-alls’.

To oikee, why no points for a draw? League and AFL both give points for a draw… and it is a legitimate result after a game in which lots of skill can be displayed. As I said before it is often more fake to try and force a winner when in reality the teams were pretty evenly matched on the day.

Also to oikee no-one said there weren’t crowd problems in football. I will be the first to put my hand up and say our code’s record has had some dark moments. All I’m saying though is that it has to be treated fairly. League has had some bad moments here too. AFL less so admittedly and the worst I’ve seen/heard is oral racist abuse of indigenous players in opposition team playing at Subiaco. As I’ve said a lot over the past months, if a sport deserves to be bagged out for CONSTANTLY having a drunken, racist, aggro disgusting yobbo environment then it is cricket. There may be one or two problem incidents PER YEAR in each of the other sports. But there are a dozen or more PER GAME in the ODI series each summer.

Oh and just so you know I have been to a Socceroos V France game at the MCG in late 2001 in France colours and had a great time, no problems. I’ve also been to a number of Australia V France Union internationals again carrying the French flag, and again no hassles. I’ve also worn Sydney FC colours to HAL games in Perth and Brisbane. And I grew up in Perth as a St Kilda supporter in the AFL and frequently went to Subi in red, black and white. MC and/or RedB can tell you how feral West Coast fans are against opposition supporters (mostly in good fun of course)!! So I definitely know what its like to be an “away” supporter.

Now, you’ll laugh at this after all my ranting. Through work I have just been invited to a corporate box for the RLWC opening ceremony and Aust V NZ game on the 26th. I’ve said yes for shits and giggles and to check it out. So despite what my thoughts are about the tournament I am going to have a look first hand…

Pippinu said  | October 15th 2008 @ 4:13pm | Report comment

Millster
how low can you stoop? (only kidding)

In relation to draws - during a long home and away season, I too have no difficulties with draws -but I do have a difficulty with them in shortish tournaments in the World Game, such that:
1. South Korea can claim 3rd possie in the Asian Cup having drawn its last three games nil-all
2. about half of the round of 16 in the 2006 WC were draws
3. the world championship can be determined by a penalty shoot out - this especially gets on my nerves.

Koala Bear said  | October 15th 2008 @ 5:06pm | Report comment

So japan will probably be our main rival in soccer. Hope i have not got the blood stiring there K.B.

oikee,
with respect that’s another ignorant statement .. Why on earth should you think my blood would be boiling over Japan … I am not a WWII vet.. But my late next door neighbour Mr Magpie was, and his father before him a Gallipalli Digger.. I am an associate member of the CRSL not a return soldier.. It’s funny tho when the Magpie was alive and during the 2006 WC we always had side bets in Marn Grook and Football.. I introduced him to the equivalent EPL Magpies (Newcastle) he thought Viduka was the ants pants; after I had told him he was the Socceroo captain, Melburnian, and a Marn Grook Magpie supporter..

Back to Japan, I had to bet against the Socceroos in the Socceroos v Japan match as he still harboured ill feelings.. Understandable I think.. But for me it was all over before I could learn to handle a sling shot.. so I see no reason on my part to hold any ill feelings towards the Japanese.. Not all CRSL members have ill feelings towards the Japanese, as many were not born or far too young to understand or what it was all about thank God.. .. Interesting point tho when the Japanese do play the Socceroos at the MCG.. I had not thought of how the members would react or even if they would go.. Interesting point you make .. Last post off to the CRSL to cheer the lads on…

~~~~~~~
KB

oikee said  | October 15th 2008 @ 6:28pm | Report comment

Not singling out football oz dasilva, i was talking overseas, i consider the ozzies civalized subjects, or as close to grorillas as you get, and sorry K.B i was talking about the whaling, not the war.

Midfielder said  | October 16th 2008 @ 8:23am | Report comment

MC

You have lost me with your comment on off side …… its part of our game as it is in RU & RL

Millster said  | October 16th 2008 @ 12:53pm | Report comment

Oikee - I should add that in the last 5 years I’ve seen top-level matches overseas too with no hassle at all. In England I’ve been to Highbury, White Heart Lane and Upton Park. In France, about a half-dozen times to the Parc des Princes and once to the Stade de France for an international. In Japan I’ve seen matches at Saitama and the National Stadium. And once to the stadium in Bern to see a World Cup Qualifier between Turkey and Switzerland. Never once seen any trouble whatsoever.

As I said again, the only place where - when attending live, or on TV - I’ve thought crowds were just filth were Aussie cricket crowds. So on that basis I don’t think that Aussies are a more civilised lot than elsewhere. They have been responsible for the worst fan behaviour I’ve ever seen. That said of course 90% of people are great and its the 10% of shit that makes things a disgrace. So I’m not bagging out everyone.

Millster said  | October 16th 2008 @ 1:16pm | Report comment

Yep agree Pip about the cause of it. Plus its a game where you get 5-second bursts of ‘action’ with 2 minute pauses in between, plus change of overs, plus drinks, plus breaks etc… 90% of the time spent in cricket is waiting for something to happen.

In oz, my ranking from best to worst for crowd behaviour would be Tennis, Union, AFL, Football, League, then daylight, and last Cricket.

Michael C said  | October 16th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment

Millster -

Tennis first………….and perhaps that’s what shook a lot of media when suddenly their were racial ‘incidents’ at the Aust Open………..(perhaps the problem had been ‘moved on’ from the soccer terraces to the tennis???).

Millster said  | October 16th 2008 @ 1:29pm | Report comment

MC - yes the Aust Open thing made me think about that. But I had to put it first in fairness because a childhood and adolescence of regular Hopman Cup attendances, the odd Davis Cup fixture, and 3 or 4 days at Roland Garros due to my French family visits made me still put it #1 overall. I’m also aware that Rugby at #2 is based on the perhaps atypical Brumbies crowd in Canberra, plus an amazingly good experience of being a minority France fan at the France V England semi at ANZ stadium in 2003 (great ribbing but in really amazing spirit and a fantastic time was had by all).

Michael C said  | October 16th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment

re crowd behaviour -

I’d be in no position to dispute your ranking - - and reality, for tennis……..apart from some home Davis cup crowds in was it Spain or Chile or somewhere…….mostly, around the world, they’re pretty good………………..come’s down to the etiquette of each sport to a degree.

Pippinu said  | October 16th 2008 @ 2:00pm | Report comment

Yes - it’s true that in decades past the racial abuse at AFL games bordered on extreme, usually specatotors against players rather than amongst spectators - but let’s give AFL the credit they deserve to for taking reasonable action to virtually stamp it out.

By the way folks - where do people normally get their Fox Sports rankings that they often bandy around here??

Pippinu said  | October 16th 2008 @ 2:17pm | Report comment

MC

I went to Victoria Park once in my lifetime - it was 1978 and I was just a kid (an oldish kid - pre-licence age).

It was one of the most horrible experiences of my life.

Collingwood won 21 goals something to 3 goals something (no exaggeration) - and it was as if there were like 6 other Footscray supporters in the whole ground - which was full of the ugliest, most terrible people I have ever had the displeasure of sharing close quarters.

Going against the wind in the first quarter, it was still early on and Templeton took a mark deep in the quarter, very near to where the small band of doggy supporters were. Incredibly, he went for a torp, which was spiralling towards the goals for half the journey, before the wind grabbed hold of it and sent to the opposite pocket. The lady next to me got excited: I tell you what, I tell you what…before she faded once it was clear that Kelvin’s kick had also faded terribly. Then it seemed like the whole Collingwood grandstand came down on her like a ton of bricks: well, tell us! go on! what’s your brilliant Kelvin going to do next! blah, blah, blah

My thoughts at the time?? Bloody hell - haven’t you learned anything?! You tried the exact same thing on debut a few years ago, and that was against Collingwood as well!! At the Western Oval, but same pocket, against the wind, ball ends up in the opposite pocket!

Andystath said  | February 5th 2009 @ 1:15am | Report comment

I thought this article was about TV rights and the advancement of the various codes through the procurement of funds from these rights.The realitity is that rugby and A-league are pretty much stuffed due to the fact that they have to value add to their products to retain any semblance of previous broadcasting agreements.AFL is sitting prettiest of all due to the fact that club memberships fund the running cost of the clubs and the one that aren’t solvent from membership like the Demons are going to be given the ass, forced to merge or relocate.League, Oikee is the biggest headcase of them all ,with all TV rights being funnelled into the 16 teams running costs and divided between two organisations,one of which is half owned by the main broadcaster of the sport.Nearly every football team in Sydney in every code is insolvent or have lost a truckload of money.All you fotbol fans won’t be cheering so loud when the credit crunch finally bites the likes of Lowy stop the funding.Rugby Union is in its most perilous position in its 150yr history.League is going to have to economically rationalise and reduce the Sydney teams and expand nationaly or become irrelevant,which it is internationally anyway.I really hate to say it,but I think AFL will win the heart of the nation, eventually.