By Spiro Zavos
November 5th 2008 @ 3:17am
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Southern Hemisphere rugby invasion will be successful
The British rugby establishment is awaiting the annual Southern Hemisphere rugby invasion of the Northern Hemisphere nations with a similar awe and puffed up defiance as the Romans adopted when they tried - unsuccessfully - to confront the barbarian hordes.
There will be the usual accusations of too much overtly brutal play, intimidation and of foul cheating tactics from the British rugby establishment after the Southern Hemisphere wins.
The occasional Northern Hemisphere victory will be acclaimed as an indicator that the rugby culture of the Northern Hemisphere, and its determination to keep the laws of the game as constipated as possible, has been triumphantly and perhaps even majestically (if one of these victories is by more than ten points) justified.
After the Hong Kong Bledisloe Cup Test, The Sunday Telegraph’s (UK) Paul Ackford, a rugby writer I admire, felt impelled to put the boot in by claiming, rather bizarrely, that the unpopularity of local Bledisloe Cup Tests was the reason why the series was moved offshore.
Sorry Paul, the exact opposite is the case.
The popularity of the series was the reason why another Test was added to the series and played in Hong Kong, to a full house, too.
The Usual Suspect insisted that the Wallabies and the All Blacks showed “nothing to terrify the European teams … although there was enough to show any victory will be hard-won.”
Brian Moore in his Daily Telegraph (UK) column reckoned that if England win two out of the four Tests, it will play against Southern Hemisphere teams that “will be an acceptable target, any more will be a real bonus.”
As England are playing the Pacific Islanders, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand, with the Pacific Islanders game generally accepted as an England win, Moore expects the home side to win only one Test against the three top Southern Hemisphere teams.
This is hardly a ringing endorsement of the strength and virtues of the English approach to playing rugby.
Lawrence Dallaglio, again in the Daily Telegraph, has indicated that he doesn’t believe England players are fit enough to really feel confident in knocking over all, or some, of their Southern Hemisphere opponents. He also made the point that since the 2003 RWC, the Six Nations sides had played the SANZAR nations 76 times, and won a paltry 13 of these contests (France winning 5, England 4, Ireland 3, Wales 1).
The Six Nations establishment likes to think that their ideas about how rugby should be played (the laws and so on, including refereeing interpretations) and the structure of the game (the various tournaments and world season) should be run entirely according to their dictates. This sort of arrogance would be, almost acceptable, if it were matched by successful practice on and off the field.
How many European coaches, for instance, are being chased to coach in Southern Hemisphere nations?
Another indication of the alarming lack of rugby intellectual and playing property comes from some statistics produced by Shaun Edwards, the rugby league great, who is the defence coach for Wales.
Since professionalism in 1996, Wales has played the Southern Hemisphere super-powers 31 times. Wales is the reigning Six Nations champions, but in that thirteen year period they have recorded just two victories against the Southern Hemisphere powers: against South Africa in 1999 (when Graham Henry was coach) and against the Wallabies in 2006 (when Scott Johnson was involved in the coaching staff).
Wales plays the Springboks at the start of the Southern Hemisphere invasion. The Springboks are coming off a stunning 53 - 8 massacre of the Wallabies.
They have an outstanding side, except for the five-eighth position, and a coach who seems to be rather unfocused. Earl Rose, a slight, flighty and occasionally brilliant player, and Rian Pienaar are being groomed to solve the five-eighths problem.
If this works, you’d have to fancy the Springboks going through their three Test tour undefeated.
This presumes that their long-time inability to win away from home has been resolved after their 2007 RWC victory and the win this year against the All Blacks at Dunedin.
The All Blacks have an incredibly hard tour involving (if one includes the Hong Kong Test) five Tests and a mid-week match against Munster in 28 days.
They start their Grand Slam quest against Scotland, a side they often have difficulty running over.
Scotland has not won a Test against New Zealand ever. But they are the masters of dirty tricks to unsettle opponents. Against the Wallabies a few years ago, they played on the narrowest field possible. Against the All Blacks in the 2007 RWC, they lied to the IRB about their jerseys and the All Blacks found themselves playing in an away kit that was virtually the same as Scotland’s.
And last year, too, they presented a forward pack that was incredibly bulked up. The recent accusation of illegal drug-taking by a Scottish forward has raised some eyebrows.
The Wallabies have, seemingly, the easiest opening match of the Southern Hemisphere invasion with a Test against Italy at Padova. I say seemingly because the last time the teams played, the Italian pack monstered the Wallabies and it was a close-run victory for the Australians.
After Hong Kong, I am not terribly confident about the quality of the Wallaby pack, especially the front row. Italy are coached by Nick Mallett, a sophisticated rugby thinker who took the Springboks to a record sequence of seventeen Test wins.
If the Wallabies can get enough ball and move it around using the width of the field, they should be able to record a strong victory.
If the Southern Hemisphere nations win their matches, I would not expect any praise from the British rugby establishment. There will be the usual accusations and recriminations.
If there are losses by the Southern Hemisphere teams, the boot will be put in about how airy-fairy Super 14 rugby is, how the Southern Hemisphere teams are chokers, and so on.
Unfortunately, the bleatings of the British rugby establishment are as predictable and as boring as the play of their major teams, with the exception of Wales.
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Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 3:39am | Report comment
“There will be the usual accusations of too much overtly brutal play, intimidation and of foul cheating tactics from the British rugby establishment after the Southern Hemisphere wins. ”
Would you care to clarify this Spiro? I don’t recall any of the home nations accusing NZ or Australia of foul play.
“This is hardly a ringing endorsement of the strength and virtues of the English approach to playing rugby.”
Utter nonsense. Moore’s conclusion depicts a nation that is in rugby transition and is coming out of four of the worst years in its entire history. Moore’s conclusion illustrates the general opinion of a nation that is developing a new style of play under a new RFU agreement. No more, no less.
“And last year, too, they presented a forward pack that was incredibly bulked up. The recent accusation of illegal drug-taking by a Scottish forward has raised some eyebrows.”
You are now making implications of substance abuse.
This boring tirade against the NH is beyond sad. Pathetic, weak, cliched journalism. This is the sort of material that creates geographical divide.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:04am | Report comment
1. If the Bledisloe series is so popular then why have so many Roar contributors noted that the 3N was too long and that they were becoming tired of the same, repetitive formula? I recall Justin Marshall echoing that very opinion.
2. What European coaches have ever coached in the S14 or the SH? Do you not think that has something to do with the tournament being a closed market? To automatically dismiss the coaching of the NH is both misinformed and arrogant. Further, a ‘journalist’ of your experience should actually be questioning why so many SH coaches prosper and develop in the NH and also why so many WANT to coach in the NH. The same applies to the players.
3. If the Springboks have such an outstanding side then why did they finish last in the 3N? That is their 6th wooden spoon since 2000 btw. It seems bizarre then that you would place so much blind faith in a team that also has an appalling away record. Ireland have beaten SA in their past two meets and SA have only once at Twickenham once in the whole decade. And yet you glibly suggest they’ll complete an unbeaten tour?
4. Scotland as masters of deception!? You noted that Wales had an improved record against the SH teams when associated with Henry and Johnson and yet you manage to somehow forget that it was Matt Williams who organised one half of the ‘dirty tricks’ you refer to – dirty tricks being playing on a narrow field and making the ABs wear a change strip… how utterly dastardly. This seems the sort of immaturity that you accused the NH teams of in your 2nd paragraph.
I bet you don’t even know half of the NH players who will be on display over the coming weeks and yet you seem happy to offer this vitriolic, spiteful diatribe. Congratulations Spiro and thanks for the insightful analysis.
Ian Noble said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:22am | Report comment
Spiro
Lets wait and see, because of so many unknowns the forthcoming series of internationals will be more interesting than before.
As for England, if Johnson’s selection against The Pacific Islanders is indicative of the style of play he will follow then English supporters are in for a roller coaster ride. The back line is very inexperienced at international level but with considerable potential. The PI’s are no pushover, the majority of their players play in the NH professional environment and their skills have been honed in tough competitions. Something which incidentially is barred to them in the SH. so much for supporting rugby in the Islands.
I read Stirling Mortlock’s views and he is anticipating a tough series and in many ways the Wallabies are in a similar position to England, new coach trying differenmt combinations, perhaps with an advantage of having played some test matches.
All the nations in the NH want to win but a reality check is needed particularly in England’s case as the main objective will be to build a squad to compete in the 6N’s. If you want bragging rights, so what, the game is flourishing in the UK, whereas in OZ and NZ it is going backwards.
By the way I heard that the drug issue related to a medication he was taking for asthma, perhaps the truth will come out eventually. As for bulking up I read that O’Connor had put on weight I wouldn’t imply anything else otherthan working hard in the gym, as the Scots players did.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 4:27am | Report comment
Don’t bother Ian. You can’t teach an old dog new tricks. The worrying aspect is that SH fans read this tripe and believe it, whereas the reality is that the majority of NH fans are actually average, pleasant people. Perish the thought.
Ian Noble said | November 5th 2008 @ 5:13am | Report comment
Benjamin
Don’t get worked up by Spiro that is his job and he is good at it.
We know that a number of things are happening on the England front but they will take time. The Elite development programme is beginning to bear fruit and better levels of rewards both financially and in terms of sponsorship are making a professional rugby career to English players as attractive as jobs in the Main Street which was not the case 3/5 years ago.
Whereas before, the cash starved foreign players could earn a decent living compared to home, the salary levels were considered as being insufficient for many English players. The change is already happening with clubs being more choosy about foreign imports as the quality of English players at club level improves. The next stage is who can step up to international level. That is Johnson’s job to identify the international players of the future.
As for claiming bragging rights, it is all rather infantile, but it is only sticks and stones from the school playground and lessens the debate about a very interested series of matches, which I believe wuill have moe postives for the England team.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 5:23am | Report comment
Ian, the role of a journalist is to gather and disseminate information about current events, trends, issues, and people while striving for non-bias viewpoint (according to Wikipedia anyhow). All I can see is blatant and unecessary vitriol. There is no real debate and no analysis, so I ask you what is the point?
Anyhow, I agree, after four years of terrifying rugby there are grounds for optimism amongst English fans. I think a lot of people have forgotten how bad England were under Andy Robinson, and to an extent Ashton. If Johnson/Wells can organise the forwards and if Smith can invigorate the backline then there is a vast potential to be exploited. Allied to the RFU agreement, which although limited is nonethless a step in the right direction, there is justification for hope. I think there are similar positives in the Ireland set up also.
Colin N said | November 5th 2008 @ 7:05am | Report comment
I don’t know if Spiro means what he says or that he is just saying this stuff to provoke a reaction. I hope it’s the second option because it shows a lack of knowledge of Northern Hemisphere irugby if the first option is his intended target.
Ian’s right regarding Scott Macleod’s failed drug test, as he has asthma and didn’t put it down he had asthma, so it came up that his prescribed medication contained a banned substance. He was cleared on both instances, one being quite recent.
Looking forward to the AI’s, I reckon England will beat both Australia and South Africa. Really, you may as well discount Italy and Scotland and look at the scores between Wales, Ireland and England and the SH nations to asses where each team is.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 7:16am | Report comment
Colin, I wasn’t aware MacLeod had been reprieved on the second occasion, although I was aware the first occasion centred on a change of asthma medication.
I agree about the results. I think England will beat SA and Australia. I’m looking forward to how France and Italy fare, especially Italy v Australia. The French backline selected for the Argentine game looks very, very good. I would have picked Wales to beat SA but I’m a bit bemused by the team Gatland has selected.
I think Hadden has missed a trick by pursuing his Hamilton-Hines supersize second row. With more lineouts, fewer scrums and no rolling maul I think it would have been more appropriate to have at least one lighter jumper: Murray or Kellock, perhaps.
Nick (KIA) said | November 5th 2008 @ 7:59am | Report comment
This is over the top Spiro. We don’t need a Southern Hemisphere S Jones.
I enjoy the Nov internationals as they provide a clash of “rugby cultures” - and the SH teams usually come out on top. I’d rather let the players (and the Roarers) do the talking than paying too much attention to these ‘beat up’ type articles designed to sell papers.
I’d like to pick up on this:
“The PI’s are no pushover, the majority of their players play in the NH professional environment and their skills have been honed in tough competitions. Something which incidentially is barred to them in the SH. so much for supporting rugby in the Islands.”
1) SH competitions (S14) aren’t barred to PI players (in NZ previously, and next year Aussies allowing non-Waller eligible players too). I’m unsure abotu SA.
2) I think NH presence is more to do with the amount of $$ available in the North.
Nick (KIA) said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:05am | Report comment
Actually, I just read what S Jones said about the weekend game here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article5060840.ece
I actually think that was the most balanced piece I’ve seen by him in a while, and accurate. I agreed with all he said, except selection of Giteau as Man of the Match.
Colin N said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:12am | Report comment
Benjamin, what would you say was bemusing about Gatland’s team selection? The only one that really jumps out is that Peel hasn’t been selected to start, although Cooper’s been playing quite well, but he isn’t the class of Peel. Apart from that, I don’t think there is a problem with his selection. Halfpenny’s been called up, which I think is fair enough, considering his recent form. Whether he is ready-well we will find out on Saturday. James Hook is on poor form (he was shocking in the first-half against LI-improved in the second), so Stephen Jones was the logical choice as the Scarlets improved dramatically when he came on last weekend.
I’m never sure what Scotland will do. They have talent with Godman, the Lamont brothers, Blair and Patterson but they never seem to get a platform. Also, they’ve always had a problem at fly-half, but with Godman, who I’ve been impressed with evertime I’ve seen him, hopefully that can change.
Btw, where’s Rory Lamont, someone said he was injured, but being a Sale fan I haven’t heard anything and he’s been in good form recently. I also wouldn’t have selected to White as he’s had only had two game back from injury, although he’s been very impressive in those games.
Regarding Macleod, it was fairly recently that he was reprieved for a second time. It was a pretty minor story as it was resolved in hours because it was found that the second test had come back negative but he failed his ‘A’ sample.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Nick, the only SH team to have regularly come out on top are the ABs. England and Ireland have beaten SA and Australia regularly. It is only Wales and Scotland who have poor records. Also PI involvement has been barred by the SA and Australian provinces. There have been a handful of Islanders playing for the Sharks and WP and none for Australian provinces. The change is to take place next season but it will only accomodate 2 players per province and one of those slots will go toward a player who would qualify for Australia. Doesn’t sound like the leverage the PI islands needs does it?
Colin, Stoddart is the form full back. His omission shocked me. Halfpenny deserves his debut and Williams is an obvious starter. Henson should be at 12 but Shanklin is playing reasonably well so where is he? Fair enough Roberts is a big man and a clever player but he has never played 13 and it is a very different channel than 12, in terms of defence. With the new positioning of Pienaar I thought it would make sense to go with the Henson and Shanklin partnership. I think he lacks the pace of a 13 and let’s not forget that he is only a recent conversion to 12. Personally I think Jones is an appalling fly half but Hook isn’t playing well so Gatland hasn’t gone with him. I’m glad that Powell has got a call up.
The MacLeod story was broken on Sky News and yet I didn’t hear a dickybird about his innocence. Terrible business.
OldManEmu said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:25am | Report comment
I thouroughly enjoyed that Spiro and look forward to viewing this thread.
OldManEmu said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:25am | Report comment
I thoroughly enjoyed that Spiro and look forward to viewing this thread.
Arky said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:28am | Report comment
Benjamin,
You really sound like you are having a whine. What is it that makes you so unhappy and miserable? Is it the shortening daylight hours, miserable weather and wet pitches?
If you look at Test results NH rugby is currently floundering and in the professional era has rarely been otherwise save for one RWC win in 2003. Only Wales has ventured to break the mold of driving an eight man maul around the paddock until within striking range and then slot a field goal or wait for a penalty. It might work, but it is boring and will not be the future of any professional sport that relies on spectators at games and viewing rights.
And you could hardly be called a progressive lot? Is your resistance to change based on defending the record of the past? That sounds somewhat illogical.
Unfortunately for you the stats don’t lie. As stated by one of your own in The Tele since 2003 there have been 76 games for the NH against SANZAR and only 13 wins for the NH. In all your bellicose retort you have not answered that one?
So before you decide to bully Spiro all over the paddock - take a good hard look at where the NH game is and what role the NH is playing in the future of the game? You have a long way to go before any of the NH teams can take the benchmark mantle held by SANZAR in the professional era.
Good luck. As Spiro suggests I hope England are satisfied with one or two from four!
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 8:42am | Report comment
I think its baseless ignorance actually that makes me unhappy.
1. No NH fans are running around stating how great their respective nation so I’m not sure what your point is.
2. Your comment about driving mauls shows a crass ignorance. Were you to have watched the recent Australia v Ireland test then you would have noted that only one side was attempting to play all the rugby there. I doubt you know anything about European rugby so I think you should keep your ill-informed comments to yourself.
3. Australia have won at Twickenham once since 2000. SA have also only won at Twickenham once since 2000. Ireland and France have also regularly beaten SA and Australia at home recently. The only side to do consistently well on tour is NZ. Lest you forget that England have won in NZ the same amount of times that Australia have this decade, also in SA. Incidentally … France also have had better results in SA than Australia have in recent years. Not only that but in the pro era England have featured in 2 WC finals. But having said that I don’t need to answer why the home nations have such a poor record because I am not ignorant enough to have been stating how good they have been in the first place.
4. Bully Spiro? Grow up.. For a man of his age and experience the above article is embarassng. Allegations of substance abuse? How I laughed.. And as far as I am aware the NH game is growing. The SH game is not. Before you get sanctimonious you should check what Australia has done for the world game recently. When was the last time that SA, NZ or Australia toured Asia, Argentina or the PI? When did Australia last invite Romania or Georgia to tour?
Arky said | November 5th 2008 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Benjamin,
Enjoy the rugby.
Enjoy the ELVs - let’s just pray you don’t continue to knock them back and really kill the game. Otherwise we will be back to the dismal display of the most recent RWC final - a spectacle that if repeated will kill the game! Surely we can agree that we don’t want the game to head that way?
The win loss records are what they are - no disagreements there. And they are skewed somewhat by the second rate teams the NH send south. Let’s hope that practice ends or rugby will risk irreparable damage. Surely a calendar for all needs to be agreed upon and then delivered as has been promised. Anything less will see the SH teams spend less time and energy traveling to play the 6N and that would not be a good outcome for rugby.
Enjoy the upcoiming contests - I know I will. And to my point above let’s hope they can also be there again in the years ahead.
To say NZ are back to their best would not do them justice. Despite the earlier ructions under Henry they have moved on and are well into new territory. I suspect they will travel unbeaten. Most of all they are showing why they deserve their reputation despite their poor RWC record.
Australia are on the rise with some very inventive and creative rugby - watch out - we were lucky to get away with each of the last two wins but our work is ahead as they are rapidly gaining momentum in a new era under Deans. The Aussies are down one test but I suspect they will only lose one other on this tour.
SA are deserving of their RWC crown and showing that they are not out of the equation by any stretch. A successful tour by them will likely unearth some very promising talent. This tour will show a favorable win loss for them.
Good luck - enjoy the rugby.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 9:22am | Report comment
I do enjoy the rugby but I don’t enjoy unecessary and frankly bizarre attacks upon NH rugby. If there were NH contributors posting about the ills of SH rugby and the greatness of NH rugby then fair enough but Colin and Ian are perfect examples of the average rugby fan in Britain. Respectful and interested, not hostile and narrow minded.
I’m not going to start the ELV debate again but needless to say that there is no tangible proof whatsoever that they are positive for the game of rugby. The NH unions are perfectly entitled to resist them and for every positive aspect you could think of I could offer a negative. However that is another debate for another time.
I hope that you enjoy the rugby too Arky. Personally I can’t wait.
Nick (KIA) said | November 5th 2008 @ 9:48am | Report comment
I don’t think the international community is doing enough for the PI, but I think it’s fallacious to suggest that the NH is doing them favours that the SH is not. It’s all about economics. The NH are paying for the best players they can extract from anywhere they can get them. NZ/Aus/SA have a bit of cash to add to any prestige of playing for your nation to keep some players in their national squads. PI teams have no cash, and no-one is doing anything particularly impressive to turn that around.
As for my suggestion that SH teams usually come out on top, well that is true, even if it is because of the ABs record, rather than the other two particularly (and the NH contribution of the non England/Wales/French teams). As a rabid ABs fan it’s probably easier to feel good about that though…
Incidentally, I’m a doctor by training (currently working in research hence time to look at these boards!). I’ve looked into this doping business a bit more out of interest. There has been a bit of erroneous reporting going on. I thought roarers might be interested, while we’re waiting for the weekend.
Macleod tested positive to terbutaline earlier in the year. This is a beta agonist drug, which acts on the lungs to releive asthma in people with asthma. You take it by inhaler. It’s the same drug class as Ventolin, which might be familiar to a few people.
Beta agonists act on adrenalin receptors, so they give you a boost in heart rate and heart pumping strength, if they act on the heart. Terbutaline is relatively specific to the lungs though, so there isn’t a great effect on the heart. Adrenalin is released when you exercise anyway, causing a rise in heart rate and pumping strength, so additional beta agonists would be unlikely to have a great effect on any performance, unless you had asthma that was limiting your performance (by preventing you breathing properly). WADA (World Anti Doping Agency) doesn’t ban enhaled terbutaline but asks atheletes to seek exemption before using it. I’m not sure how hard it is to get such an exemption, but you can download a form. They have blood levels that are consistent with enhaled use (most of it stays in the lungs) so they can tell if anyone is trying to use it orally to get some performance use.
It’s been reported that Macleod switched enhalers in the first instance earlier this year - this probably means he was taking ventolin (and had an exemption presumably) and switched to terbutaline being unaware that this was a different beta agonist and needed a different exemption. He got a warning.
They aren’t steroids, which has been reported in various places. The confusion comes because antiinflammatory steroids are used in asthma (and other conditions). They have long term complications if used in high doses (they actually weaken connective tissues like ligaments and bones and increase bruising - not great in any contact sport). Similar to beta agonists, when used in inhalars they mostly stay in the lungs. There are theoretical reasons why they might be helpful in sports in big doses (they can reduce perception of pain, for example), so intravenous use is prohibited. Inhalational use for asthma needs an exemption applied for.
Now he’s been pinged for an abnormally high testosterone level.
Anabolic steroids, like nandrolone, testosterone, are steroids that promote muscle growth. The trick here is that some (like testosterone and a bunch of others) are naturally produced.
Taking anabolic steroids is prohibited. There are ones that only exist because they have been created in the lab (to treat medical conditions) like nandrolone. If they are found, then youve been taking anabolic steroids. Testosterone is produced by all people (males at greater amounts than females). So WADA ban the presence of ones that you don’t produce naturally, but have cutoffs for normal levels for athletes, based on population normal ranges.
Like all things in people, some people produce more testosterone than others. Most people produce amounts in the normal range, but there are always exceptions. Think about other human characteristics, like height. Most people are within a range, say 5′3 to 6′8, but there are occasional exceptions, even though the person is ‘normal’. So for testosterone, there is a range of acceptable values, then if the level is too high, it’s flagged as suspicious and more testing is undertaken over time. It could be that the individual is naturally producing high levels, or that there was a lab error.
My reading of the situation is that Macleod has had an unusually high testosterone level found. If it was very high, then they’d have proven it was administered to him and he’d be facing the rap. It must therefore be ‘high but not very high’. The lab has to report the finding as atypical, and the athelete has to undergo an additional testing over time to see what happens (or to have additional testing on stored sampels, if available).
That would explain why it’s kinda hanging out there and hasn’t been confirmed or refuted yet.
More technical info is available here: http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/2008_List_En.pdf
Homer said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Hostile and narrow minded! Have you read any of the NH ‘journalists’. Stephen Jones doesn’t even like the way SH teams kick off. He really gets narky when we score tries.
There is evidence of the success of the ELV’s after a recent report stood up to all the NH rants about their impact. The first was that the ELV’s are not a SH plan to change the sport but the result of an international coaches convention to spruce the game up after the 2003 World Cup. Yes, all the coaches not just Australian’s and Kiwis.
The sceond showed that there are actually less kicks in the game and that the scrums are now of more importance as more tries are scored from scrums thanks to the 5m rule. Read the report and then come back about the ELV’s.
Spiro may be slightly off the mark in some opf his comments here today but in general his opinion is highly regarded but not taken as law. Your attacks have been on the vitriolic side and from someone who has contributed so much to this site, somewhat blinkered.
After the wallabies won the 1999 world cup we heard how we were all creatine drug cheats and that we played boring football. When England won in 2003 we were called whingers because we said England played boring, kick orientated fottball and since the dawn of time, the usual suspect and his blind mates have attacked everythign Sh with little justification. SJ even said half the All Black squad would struggle in the GP!?!?! How does he justify the world rankings then? The fact that SH teams dominate the world rankings but only one SH player is up for player of the year is another joke that we have let pass.
WHoever wins doesn’t really matter as long as the football is good. there will be more games next year and the same arguments will be thrown up.
benjamin there will always be journalists trying to one-up the opposition and sway public opinion. Use you own resources to make a judgement as will we.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:06am | Report comment
Nick, it is equally fallacious to suggest that Australia’s new provincial policy will help, or is intended to help the PI.
The SH does have an excellent record against NH teams. Nobody will dispute that but then no NH fan will make excessive claims about the home nations either. Having said that, every WC final in the pro-era has been contested by both hemispheres which suggests that all things being equal the SH ’superiority’ is exagerrated. England has won in NZ the exact amount of times that SA has and one less than Australia has this decade. France has a better record in SA than Australia does and England have won in all 4 SH countries and have beaten them at home too. So in a one off game the hemispheres are not yards apart. Let’s not forget that this season is the first time that the English national team will have squad access similar to the SH. Up to this point the odds have not been stacked in the favour of Europe.
You are correct about MacLoed. He swapped inhalers without altering his medication sheet. I haven’t seen any press regarding his second test.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:11am | Report comment
Homer, Stephen Jones aside the NH press is overtly placid. There is always a hate monkey hanging around in every sport.
What recent report are you referring to?
Nobody of a bright or inquiring mind honestly believed the ELVs were a cynical SH plan, and you’re right about the coaches meeting. However that was transplanted by the LPG which consisted of no current coaches or anybody with a contemporary link.
My ‘attacks’? I suggest you clarify what I have said in response to the initial article anything that is innapropriate or incorrect.
Colin N said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Very interesting Nick, but I think he’s been cleared twice, so I don’t think it’s hanging. I think he may have made a couple of administrative errors before being tested, thus testng positive, or as you getting high readngs. But anyway I’m no doctor so there’s no pointin trying to debate this issue using technicalities.
Regarding Wales Benjamin, I think Stoddart has been very good this year but he’s still defensively suspect and Bryne has still been very good this year for the Ospreys and deserves his place and Stoddart will just have to wait for a chance if Bryne is rested or injured. I’ve never rated Jones and have never understood what the Welsh fans see in him. The same with goes with O’Gara as he’s never produced it consistantly at the top level. I also think that Roberts is deceptively quick and no Shanklin isn’t on great form. He’s doing ok but arguably the form 13 isn’t in the squad and that’s Jamie Robinson, who’s keeping Shanklin out of the Blues side. The Dwayne Peel decision though could come back to haunt him.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Colin, good call on Robinson. Shanklin isn’t setting the world alight but he has a relationship with Henson. Playing Roberts at 13 strikes me as a big, big risk although conversely Jacobs isn’t greased lightning. I’m not mad on Byrne. I think he’s an athlete first and a footballer second whereas I think the opposite is true of Stoddart. Got to disagree with you about O’Gara. He’s dug Ireland out of countles holes.
bob said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Thanks for that Nick (Kia), a well informed comment.
Bejamin, don’t let the likes of spiro rattle you… no rugby player or former rugby player holds his convictions. When you wear my colours, you’re my brother, is the mantra of rugby, and regardless of race, colur, creed or origin, rugby embraces anyone who will commit to the cause on the field.
NH rugby is on the up, big time, and SH rugby will come up with it once they return to tribal heartland rugby and stop with the franchise speak… they will always produce world class players and many will always head north for the experience, the money, the buzz… just as some younger players from the north will head south for teh honing, the experience, the development. It’s all good.
For anyone to object to the maul shows ignorance, to say the NH has rejected the ELV’s shows ignorance, to make accusations of substance abuse shows ignorance, and worse, jingoistic and childish spite… not the words of a rugby player, but of cheap jouno’s and ill informed fair weather fans… fortunately we have a sport that does its best talking on the park, and we love it that way.
So don’t let people like spiro rattle you… I’m English, and I’ve played and coached in Oz and NZ, and never met a single player with his mindset… I only met brotherhood and friendship. But that’s tugby for you… something people like spiro know nothing about… people like him think that if they know the history, or the stats, they know the game… rugby men (and women) know better.
Nick (KIA) said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:28am | Report comment
Re PI support:
I’m not suggesting that the policy is designed to do anything other than help the ARU. I was defending the notion that PI players are barred from S14. There may be a small incidental benefit to the PI teams, in that if any of their players secure ARU contracts (as compared to NH ones) then they’ll be available for midyear test window.
Re records
Winning in NZ is difficult for everyone except the AllBlacks. But you can only get beaten once at any individual game. I think the NH sides tend to be thrashed in NZ, whereas the SH sides get closer. There are exceptions, and valid excuses for the NH sides (availabilities of players, end of season, etc). But that would be my immediate and potentially biased perception.
Also, WC performance of ABs is well documented as poor - relative to some nations (England, SA, Australia). But SH have still won all but one havent’ they? It’s a bit closer if you look at number of teams in finals (7 to 5) and semifinals - (13 SH to NH’s 11). So it depends on your definition of superiority, and the amount of weight you place on the WC relative to other games.
Your point about the access is valid. It may not have the desired effect immediately, but a couple of seasons should see the England team increasingly competitive.
Mart said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:29am | Report comment
OK - here’s my 2 penn’th…..I reckon Eng will lose 3 of the AI’s, possibly4 if the PI keep their head. Why ? Due to the “new everything” scenario (players, coach team, attempted style of rugby as Ian N notes, ELV adapttion, etc etc) that they are facing.
The alternative view is that everything will go so swimmingly they will win all 4 of course !!!!!
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Thank you Bob. It’s rewarding to see somebody who recognises the famlilial qualities that lie at the core of rugby and hopefully that will never be undermined by tabloid sensationalism. I can’t help but feel protective of that.
Homer said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Overtly placid! There has been a solid stream of articles denegrating SH rugby due to our support of the ELV’s and linking it to a SH conspiracy and not just by SJ. This was also before the ELV’s were even trialled in the NH.
On another note, I do generally appreciate your insights into the GP. Can you tell us about the new England fullback? Is he anothe Ojo or a real talent?
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Nick that might be different were the NH teams to play there in a round robin competition as they do during the 6N. NZ have won 9 3N tournaments and SA and Australia 2 apiece. It is no coincidence therefore that the better NH sides have comparatively equal records with these two nations in this century.
Mart, Johnson is the only coaching change, alongside Brian Smith. Wells, Rowntree and Ford remain and Johnson has close club ties with Johnson and Wells. If anything the coaching ring should be stronger because of that. The only real are of change is the team but every house starts with a foundation (following the underpinning of course). The SH teams will have to adapt to the ELVs as there will be no short arm, thus there are more lineouts and fewer scrums.
I think they’ll win 3 and lose to NZ. That may be optimistic but I think history is in the favour of England.
Hoy said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Perhaps we should get Romania or Goergia to tour instead of other second string sides that come here.
And we just played in Asia on Saturday night I thought. No tour, but a bloody good exhibition of footy I thought. You ask what Australia is doing to the world game. I thought the idea of the ELVs was to make the game a better spectacle for those watching. I think it does that. My opinion. Australia is supporting the ELVs to hopefully improve the game. I know I certainly didn’t enjoy the RWC final. Nor did I enjoy England playing forward dominated games tyring to get into a position to get a penalty and win games that way. Yes it is in the law and good on them for winning, but it isn’t pretty to watch. Given the option, I would rather have watched the super 14, or even the busted ARC (which I thought was a cracking comp) than England play footy for the last 5 years.
Wallabies last toured Argentina around 2002. When did everyone else go there? I know Scotland went there recently. Anyone else? I see England are heading there next year. When was the last time they went? 1997? PI came here I think in 2004.
I can’t find it anywhere but I thought that Australia voted against NZ to give the next one to Japan. If I am right, how is that for developing the game?
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Homer, journalists like Butler and Ackford haven’t denigrated the SH, and neither has Stuart Barnes. Like I say there will always be hate monkeys and I despise the nonsense of Jones but the vast majority have been critical but open minded, as is their right, hence their acceptance of the points they like. There has been no sensationalism like we have seen from Spiro and also from O’Neill - which I think sets the tone and a precedent.
Armitage is a good footballer. He can kick goals and has been a London Irish stalwart for 3 years therefore he should be on the same wavelength as Brian Smith. He is fast and genuinely a good attacker. Having played fullback and wing during the past two seasons he has been playing at 13 this season which may be positive because it gives him a wider appreciation of back play… or it might not. He’s a bit lightweight but is in form. I say let’s give him a go. Robinson, and to a lesser extent Ashton, wasted their time in charge by persisting with out of form warhorses lke Lewsey. This new selection by Johnson shows a real committment to change.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:46am | Report comment
Hoy, O’Neill forgets - or at least appears to - that the ARU have an obligation to develop world rugby. I agree with your sentiment about Romania and Georgia. It should be a proper tour too, taking in the provinces. Whilst the Bledisloe test was played in HK the stadium was full of expats. I strongly doubt that it helped to expand rugby in that country.
Wales, Ireland, England, Scotland and Italy have all played tests in Argentina in the past 5 years. All were a 2 test series bar the England game.
The idea of the ELVs as stated by the LPG was to improve the game for the players and to ease the role of the referee, not to improve the game as a spectacle. Using the WC as an example is a dangerous move because it is a knockout competition. All such competitions are tight in every single sport and every single WC bar 1987 and 1999 has been incredibly close and tense with little rugby being played. That is the nature of the beast.
Arky said | November 5th 2008 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Hoy - valid comments all of them. Leaving space on our calendar in May and June prior to the 3N for sides like Romania and Georgia rather than second string sides which fail deliver on commitments given would be a step in the right direction.
Last I looked Australia (in the form of Aust A) and NZ (the NZ Maori) played all of the PI teams in a tournament in the window prior to 3N commencing. And both teams will field palyers on their current tournament that where standouts in those games.
TembaVJ said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
First, the term “boring rugby” has been used by ELV fanatics far to loosely, finals are boring come ELV’s or not, please see Currie Cup and ANZ cup for the evidence, no rule that can be change will change the fact the finals are tightly contested affairs. It is extremely irritating when ELV door sales men use this fact to market their cause.
Second I think Wales at this stage of the fight is a far better side then England, so we only have to wait 3 more days to find out what’s what. South Africa is the best example to use come negative remarks against SH teams. The politics and bad management behind the sport in South Africa has made them very unreliable, a team that can beat the best on a good day and lose to the worst on a bad day.
When will we see a this divide between North and South close? We live in the 21st Century, Internet, mobile phones, satellites and an Indian probe on its way to the moon. Its time we combine and compromise for the sake of rugby, the IRB is running the game into the ground, the north wants no ELV’s and Australia and NZ wants to change the game beyond recognition.
Will everyone ever be happy?
I think South Africa has what it takes to sink Wales, if the token coach doesnt lose his mind and starts comparing himself to Christ. Aus should use the back line, class players like Gitts, Barnes and Mortlock need to have a good day at the office to make up for the lack of power in the forwards. The All Blacks… keep doing what you doing but try it with out the CRAP performance in the first half.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Arky, I feel the need to clarify - no home nation has ever usurped on any ‘commitments’ to the ARU. No home nation has sent an understrength team to tour the SH since the ‘Tour of Hell’ in 1998. France is the only nation who has persisted in sending weakened teams.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:04am | Report comment
Temba, the North doesn’t not want any ELVs. Merely the ones that are irrelevant.
hayden said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:17am | Report comment
Benjamin - I have just joined the thread. I wish to take issue with a couple of things in your early posts:
“I don’t recall any of the home nations accusing NZ or Australia of foul play.” - British scribes, and many bloggers, regularly attribute AB victories at least to McCaw’s constant cheating, illegal scrummaging and off the ball thuggery, “Plumbing the craven depths’ was the exact term one used to describe the last AB victory at Twickers.
I think the main reason SH coaches head north, at least from a NZ perspective, is that the market is smaller for advancement in the SH. There are only 5 S14 teams. It provides another step in the career pathway.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Hayden, in nearly every test that McCaw plays there is some controversy in the press, that is the nature of breakdown play. Likewise certain ‘bloggers’ may be misinformed but the same is true of this site. I would be content to admit defeat to two props of the outstanding quality of Woodcock and Hayman. However to cite a specific example that illustrates just how contentious test scrummaging is - the 2005 Lions Maori game featuring Sheridan v Hayman. The GB press saw it as a KO for Sheridan whereas the NZ press saw it as a points victory for Hayman. Rarely will two such separate entities (the NH and SH press) agree. Further, the Australian press saw the recent HK test as a points victory in the scrum for Robinson and Baxter. The NZ press saw the opposite. I have never seen the European press complain about NZ or Australian thuggery, however. Could you clarify the press term article you are referring to please. I’d like to have a peruse.
Yes, the market advancement is smaller in the SH but the competition is simultaneously limited and unwinnable. How many S14 sides could win the S14? A lot of coaches have found that Europe will make them better coaches. Look at Gatland. He won everything with Wasps and did well with the Waikato in the NP but left due to the press.
Andrew B said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:28am | Report comment
Spiro,
Minor point I know, but you have now brought it up repeatedly, so I will correct you again.
Scotland did not ‘trick’ the AB’s into playing in their away strip. The Scottish jersy changed design, but the blue colour was identical. It was the French who changed the colour on their jersey to a much darker colour.
You seem to have a dislike for the Scots and it ruins your crediability when you write like this.
stuff happens said | November 5th 2008 @ 11:41am | Report comment
“…the bleatings of the British rugby establishment are as predictable as…” - your bleatings about them Spiro.
Yawn! I no longer rise to the bait.I’ve reformed.
For those interested in Warren Gatland’s views about Welsh rugby and the team he’s selected against the ‘Boks on Sat there’s quite a long interview with him on bbc.co.uk. (Also their US election coverage is excellent)
Farmer said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Benjamin,
I beg to differ - I have been to too many matches involving 2nd tier touring NH national sides in Aust. - Wales, England and France to name a few over the last 5 years.
Hence the strong sentiment here is that we should can these tours of Aust if there is not an assurance the 1st team would be sent. Many times I have walked out of the ground vowing “never again” . Each time there is an assurance the best side is coming.
I have given up going to NH team tour test in Aust.
Jerry said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
“(Gatland) left due to the press”
Wait, what? Gatland left cause he didn’t get the Chiefs job.
Harry said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
The Hong Kong experience once again showed me that at the average spectator level the brotherhood is strong - had many an excellent and amiable conversation with true rugby followers from NZ and the UK over the weekend. Yes there can be disagreements but most of all there is animated and intersting discussion over a game eveyone loves.
This style of “wind-up’ rugby writing - where the opposition team and country is denegrated, and insulting and belittling claims about indivduals are rife - was pioneered by Stephen Jones (still the worst exponent) and helped along by a rabble of tabloid journalists (i.e. that league twit Paul Kent in the 03 world cup). Unfortunately Spiro has succumbed to this with this OTT article.
As to the AI’s, I think England and France will beat Australia, the ABs will be undefeated, and SA will lose only one game (perhaps against England). I think the Australian pack is still too weak (Sharpe, the props), and the backs lacking combination and true penetration. At least we are going there trying to win and putting our best possible teams out, not like the weak efforts from France and England - who have the depth - in the SH in recent years.
Benjamin said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Farmer, I beg to differ with you. Wales and England have sent their strongest available teams on every tour of the SH this decade. The key word being AVAILABLE. You can’t account for injuries and JON is well aware of the length of the European season. I think you’ll find that the only teams to have sent intentionally weakened teams over the past 8 years have been NZ (to Europe), SA (to Europe) and France (to the SH). Not England, Wales or Ireland.
Harry, please read above. Depth? Are you a GP fan then? If so you could clarify this depth for me.
Jerry, his general reasoning centred upon the press, narrow minded public etc. You’d have to google it.
Worlds Biggest said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Spiro was just throwing it out there and some of you ( Benjamin ) took the bait, hook, line and sinker !. Looking forward to the Northern hemisphere Tour as always. It’s a pity though that the touring games have been phased out mostly. These games traditionally have been fantastic and an opportunity to blood youngsters. The Munster v All Blacks game at the new Thomond Park ( 28,000 ) was sold out months ago.
Jerry said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
I remember his interview, but I also recall him saying the main reason he left NZ was that he didn’t have an opportunity to coach at S14 level (which was actually not true, he’d been offered the Highlanders job, but refused it). He may not have had much time for the press or the public, but he left cause the NZRU reappointed Foster for the Chiefs job.
ohtani's jacket said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
“Southern Hemisphere rugby invasion will be successful” — the big question is, so what if it is?
ADH said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Benjamin wrote:
“No home nation has sent an understrength team to tour the SH since the ‘Tour of Hell’ in 1998. France is the only nation who has persisted in sending weakened teams.”
Benjamin, before you start sprouting off on things you obviously have no idea about, maybe you should check your facts… Wales sent a second string side to Australia in 07, as did England in 06. It was well documented in the media.
You’re correct , France have regularly done it as well.
Worlds Biggest said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Spiro got the reaction he wanted out of a few of you ( assume UK punters ), don’t take it too personally lads. When Stephen Jones sticks the knife into Sth Hemisphere Rugby regularly it’s taken with a grain of salt as that is is mantra. It’s a pity the midweek tour games have been phased out mostly. They were great games and opportunities to blood the youngsters.
The Munster v All Blacks game at the new Thomond Park ( 28,000 ) in Limerick was sold out months ago. Bring more of these games back I say !
Sam Taulelei said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
After viewing NZ’s lineup against Scotland I find it more than a tad ironic that for many years we have complained bitterly about the understrength sides from the UK and France that tour down under in June and yet justify our rotation selections along the lines of “we believe this is the best team available for this match”.
Kiwi perspective will argue from a position of player welfare, strength in depth and managing the workload of a squad of 35 playing six matches on tour. I can’t disagree with some of those points but from a fans perspective paying top dollar to see a test between two countries, I know I want to see the best players on the field.
Problem isn’t with the coaches, administrators are walking a very thin line between earning more gate revenue by scheduling so many tests close together and giving players enough recovery time between tests and seasons. The All Blacks playing 16 tests this year alone is just crazy.
Harry said | November 5th 2008 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
Benjamin - now your in wind up mode matey. The Frogs themselves admit they choose “experimental” teams and the Poms cheerfully brief all and sundry they do the same and then say “wait till we play you with our best players - who are taking the summer off - at Twickers”.
Let me flip this - you would no doubt be pissed if you paid 100 quid for your ticket to Twickers to see us put out an Australian side of- lets say Knorton-Knight, Mitchell, Ioane, Tahu, Cross, Cooper, Holmes, Hoiles, Waugh, Chapman, Hockings, Mumm, Kepu, Frier, Dunning - and see that side chuck in the towel and replace both props leading to uncontested scrums after getting flogged in the 1st half. Yet thats exactly what we have to cop out here from the NH teams. Only the Irish seem to make every effort to send their best team out (respect to them). Scotland we can excuse on depth issues, there first team aint that flash to begin with.
Wales, England and France have disgraced themsleves and their countries rugby heritage with their recent SH performances.
Mart said | November 5th 2008 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Sam - this hits the nail on the head and when you factor in the fact that in Eng the clubs, not the Union, own the players it explains a lot of the recent touring squads. I’m old enuf to recall when seeing, say, Eng v NZ or Aus was a real thrill as it didn’t happen often. Now these fixtures are as commonplace as 6N games and the holy grail of the RWC seems to be the overarching focus. So unions - Eng for example - have done deals to placate the clubs if the clubs “play ball”around RWC time. Hopefully Eng’s new agreement with the clubs gets round this (even if it needs time to be rolled out). But your net point is correct - with national teams playing so many games they absolutely need to rotate players, test new talent etc. Sadly sometimes that’s dressed up to suit the politics behind the scenes…..