By Jesse Fink
November 26th 2008 @ 3:26am
Related coverage
39th round Wellington’s get-out-of-jail card
Bizarre goings-on, as usual, in the Asian Football Confederation this week with AFC president Mohamed Bin Hammam doing a complete 360 on his stated opposition to a 39th round of the English Premier League in Asia.
Hammam was one of the most vociferous opponents of the concept – which involved EPL teams playing a round in key marketing territories outside England – and there were few who supported it; I was one of them, it should be pointed out.
I thought the 39th round was a natural extension of what the Premier League was already doing in Asia and a signal of its willingness to counter the popularity of the booming Indian Premier League cricket tournament on the subcontinent.
It was also a defensive gambit against predatory entrepreneurs.
As I wrote back in April, “Was it really so bad for Scudamore to try to leverage the value of his own product before a Lalit Modi-style promoter (the man who invented the IPL) comes and tries to do something similar with EPL football?”
Hammam’s opposition was founded on a simple premise. The EPL wasn’t giving anything to Asia, just taking. And he didn’t mince his words.
“I can’t see the wisdom in the proposed plans,” he said at the time. “My recommendation to the AFC executive committee would be to reject any initiatives of this nature. And we would urge the AFC member associations to protect their own national leagues and clubs within their territories.”
Which Football Federation Australia, a lickspittle of the AFC, did in a flash.
Now Hammam’s changed his tune completely, having apparently been convinced by Scudamore that it wasn’t football imperialism at all and in fact an act of benevolence.
“I think the EPL are mature enough to understand that it is not all about money, but it is about what legacy they can leave behind them in Asia and how they can support other clubs and leagues in Asia to come up with their football,” he said. “This is what is now on the agenda of the Premier League.”
Of course, I wasn’t privy to anything that went on between the Qatari powerbroker and his English silvertail counterpart, but it really is something of an extraordinary volte face. Scudamore must have promised a lot.
And, crucially, it leaves the FFA in an exceptionally invidious position.
When the AFC made its original opposition to the 39th round abundantly clear to its member associations, the FFA was very vocal in its opposition to the idea.
Chairman Frank Lowy, not usually the spokesman for such matters, came out and declared the concept was dead in the water: “The bottom line is FFA rejects the notion of another country playing a round of their domestic competition in Australia and intruding on the development of the Hyundai A-League and the game in Australia.”
So much for that.
Now chief executive Ben Buckley is heading to the AFC Awards in Shanghai, scheduled to meet Hammam.
You can bet he will be returning home singing a markedly different tune.
Importantly, however, Buckley should take some encouragement from the fact that Hammam has demonstrated some pragmatism in this instance.
It shows that the whole issue of Wellington Phoenix being booted out of the A-League after 2011 is anything but a fait accompli and there must be some room for negotiation.
If Hammam really is fair dinkum about raising the quality of Asian football as he repeatedly insists he is, then he is doing a disservice to Australia, one of his most powerful allies, by eliminating a team that currently sits sixth in our national league.
Removing Wellington would be an act of utter stupidity and leave the A-League very much the poorer.
Let’s trust Hammam comes to his senses a second time around.
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Liam Pender said | November 26th 2008 @ 8:57am | Report comment
To true, I dont understand why there are people who despise the idea of Wellington in our league, Quite simply the team in New Zealand allows for significantly more advertising revenue with another 4 million people added to the market. Australia has such a small population we should be clamoring for more people to get involved with the A-league, especially if we intend on a second division in the future.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2008 @ 9:12am | Report comment
An intelligent article – I would give anything to know how Bin came around to accepting the 39th round was a good idea (and I have long suspected that it had something to do with political manoeuvring around the 2018/2022 WC bids).
We need to keep the Nix in the comp – for a whole host of reasons.
On a slightly unrelated matter, folks, I’ve written an article on this Rebecca Wilson business on 442 that is now up, it offers a slightly different perspective on things:
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/89803,blog-getting-back-to-the-hal.aspx
Towser said | November 26th 2008 @ 9:56am | Report comment
First of all what sort of cheap shot is using “Which Football Federation Australia, a lickspittle of the AFC, did in a flash.”
Lickspittle:-
“a fawning subordinate : toady ”
What would you prefer Jesse Fink() still being a part of Oceania? Does being part of the AFC’ without which football would still be in the dark ages in Australia’ involve having to put up with cheap shots . I prefer to believe that pragmatism dictates that there is a more balanced view.
The subject of A NZ team in the A-league is already being discussed elsewhere on the Roar. But there are a few points here that need addressing.
Firstly the 4 million market bullshit is wearing thin. So far from NZ we’ve had a failed team & now its replacement the Phoenix despite Fred, drawing 5,500 the other day. So why would it be an act of stupidity & leave the league very much the poorer?
A blanket statement. Wheres the back up for it? A whole host of reasons. What are they? Wheres the evidence of increased advertising revenue?
As Margaret Thatcher said to George Negus on 60 Minutes when he said people were saying certain things about her government “Who are these people,show me these people”
The A-League has enough problems estabilishing its own Australian based clubs over which the FFA has some degree of control.
What we are trying to do with the Phoenix( or any NZ club) is not provide an outlet for a professional football team to operate out of that country ,but create an enviroment for the overall development of NZ footbal . Since when has that been our responsibility? An out of reach task. Also of course to tap into the massive but fictitious NZ football market.
John O’Niell probably had the idea in the first place that a NZ team was a goer due to his RU background(understandable).
What he underestimated was that the market for football in NZ is on a par with tiddlywinks & their is no pre-history of Kiwis attending football matches in numbers.
Millster said | November 26th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
It would be fascinating to see what set of incentives had been offerred to MBH to make him change his mind on the 39th round. They must be significant as, on fundamentals, the concept is antagonistic to the development of an Asia-centric footballing culture and loyalty among the fan base. It exacerbates what is already too much of a problem – the influence and attractiveness of European football crossing over from the symbiotic to the parasitic in terms of fan attention.
For mine, I hope the quid pro quo is as follows. The home countries (UK, Scotland, Wales and Nth Ireland) can no longer play as 4 nations in Europe and in the World, they have to stop the perverse situation they are currently enjoying and play as one nation. And Europe therefore loses one WC finals place with half going to Asia (giving us a full five) and the other going to Oceania (giving it a full spot, and in the process giving NZ football a massive lift plus giving Oceania something to really bargain with if it wants to merge with the AFC). And at the club level, the EPL will get the TV revenue and merchandise, but the full gate (yes 100%) for each and every match goes to an AFC infrastructure development fund which is aligned to their strategic plan for the region.
Pigs might fly but those would be the kinds of things that my starting terms would include…
Aussie Phoenix said | November 26th 2008 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Towser, in your uneducated rant you say “What we are trying to do with the Phoenix( or any NZ club) is not provide an outlet for a professional football team to operate out of that country ,but create an enviroment for the overall development of NZ footbal . Since when has that been our responsibility? An out of reach task. Also of course to tap into the massive but fictitious NZ football market.”
The Wellington Phoenix are an Australian club registered with the FFA playing in an AFC sanctioned Professional League that happen to be based in another country. Whilst Wellington Phoenix is based in New Zealand it has no professional link to the New Zealand FA and has drawn from the same talent pool as the other 7 A-League Franchises. Is it Club’s fault that the Kiwi players in the A-League prefer to be based in their home nation and now that they have an opportunity to do such?
Also where were all the Australian bids when the previous NZ A-League license was revoked and the FFA required somebody to start a new club from scratch within months of the 07/08 starting? Did the bandwagon have a flat tyre that day or something?
And as for your argument about the crowd last weekend against Newcastle, I distinctly remember the Newcastle Jets registering an attendance figure somewhere in the region of 4,600 back in Season 06/07. Where you calling for their heads then? What about Adelaide United? Their average this season is 9765 and they were in the Asian Champions League Final!
How on earth can you say that Wellington Phoenix haven’t added anything to football when the average Home attendance since the clubs inception is around 9950?
I’d love to hear how you asnwer those questions…
dasilva said | November 26th 2008 @ 10:33am | Report comment
FRom what I remember but with no facts, NZ had decent crowds last year and has potential to develop something greater then what they are showing this season. I would say towser there was mitigating circumstances for poor crowd. The club has not been guaranteed long term future. THere’s a decent risk that they may fold and not even participate in the A-league next season because of MBH comment. The clubs in death throes and is hanging there waiting for a pardon from AFC or FIFA. I don’t think many people will want to see there clubs under that circumstances. I could imagine the press for Wellington Pheonix that week was not Fred is playing but Wellington Pheonix is going to be kicked out.
Also perhpas people were caught up with the RL WC victory as well.
dasilva said | November 26th 2008 @ 10:41am | Report comment
Personally I hate the fact that in Asia and AUstralia that people who have no connection to any of the cities in England are EPL crazy and look down on their local leagues. This will only exacerbate it.
If MBH is going to sell out. Let’s hope that FIFA and UEFA haven’t yet (at least on this issue) and that Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini put a stop to this.
Really the only way this would be worth while for Asia if we put alot of starting condition (eg. Millster post) that it’ll defeat the purpose for the 39th match anyway.
dasilva said | November 26th 2008 @ 10:44am | Report comment
Our biggest threat to A-league is not AFL, RL, RU, Cricket etc. IT is EPL, La Liga and Serie A.
Why should we let our biggest and most dangerous competitor to our local league increase access to this market when we don’t have to. FFA have to fight this.
Millster said | November 26th 2008 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Exactly dasilva – and that is exactly why the trade-off for EPL has to be deep and frankly gut-wrenching (for Europe) reform in our favour. After reading the football news more thoroughly perhaps I’d add to my list of demands the acceeding of the EPL to the UEFA/Sarkozy plan that they are so strongly resisting. Not the least of which because it would change the economics of player values in the EPL.
Towser said | November 26th 2008 @ 11:24am | Report comment
dasilva
It always has been. To many football fans in this country cant see the wood for the trees.
To be honest I cant see what advantage the EPL gets from this as you can already get wall to wall coverage of the comp here & throughout Asia.
I dont give a stuff what they get out of it .However if you told me that MBH had negotiated a deal with whoever puts up the cash for the EPL(TV Sponsors etc) to direct some of that moolah towards continuous upgrading of the ACL & therefore the standard of football of the Countries (& their competions) involved in it ,I’d be listening intensely.
Ronnie from Lonnie said | November 26th 2008 @ 11:34am | Report comment
YES! YES! YES! dasilva, you’ve touched on a hugely important topic and my favourite gripe!!
Next time I see someone wearing a Liverpool or ManU or other Euro jersey I really want to stop and ask that person “So, how long did you live in Liverpool for?” (… or Manchester … or Barcelona … or wherever)
And if they say “Never have” then I’d really like to ask them what the hell sort of connection they do have with the city to want to support it’s football team so passionately.
If Australians play for the team, then maybe I’d give the benefit of the doubt. But I sure hope they don’t say something completely daffy like “I like the team colours”. Barf!!
It’s the culture cringe in a different guise … don’t want to follow HAL because it’s Austrayan and not top quality.
The other day I was in a bar with 3 other blokes (1 an English expat). Like the other 3, I supported an AFL team. Unlike the other 3, I supported a HAL team, they all supported EPL teams. And that’s not the first time I’ve been in that situation. Thats’ a 3-1 ratio from that small random sample. Makes you wonder if this pattern is repeated across the nation.
You’re right, this is the BIG problem with football in this country – CANNIBALISATION (in this case, Euro leagues eating away at HAL support). And the FFA is acutely aware of the situation.
HAL lives under the shadow of the Euro leagues just like the NBL lives under the shadow of the NBA.
chris said | November 26th 2008 @ 11:38am | Report comment
I agree with Pip regarding the AFC’s backflip and the fact that it may have somethign to do with 2018/2022. Why else would there be a backflip of such proportions. Interesting times ahead.
Yeah, I have never understood why so many aussies follow clubs in the premier league religiously yet wont watch the a league. What is more frustrating is the fact that a lot of these people have no ties what so ever with any of these clubs.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2008 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
I”m supporting das, Ronnie and Chris (and I know Towser has a good reason) – I take an interest in a few overseas clubs. 1. The Serie A clubs from Sicily, where my family is from, seeing also that for them to be in the Serie A, throughout my lifetime, has been a rarity.
2. A few EPL clubs, usually from a silly whim at one point or another during my lifetime (birthplace of the Beatles; or the Arabesque symbol of Pompey)
But I could never say I’m fanatical about any of them. Whereas I can say I’m verging on fanatical for the bullies and Melbourne Victory. I’m from there. My family still lives there. I visit regularly. I pay for a membership even when I live miles away. I feel I have a real connection. I feel deeply every win and loss. It’s meaningful in my life. It affects my relationship with my wife.
But a club on the other side of the World with which one might have zero personal connection – how could you ever get fanatical about that?!
Towser said | November 26th 2008 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Perhaps its about time somebody did start to understand the EPL snobbery because its costing huge numbers of bums on seats for A-League clubs.
Coming here as a young migrant I can go back 40 years on this subject & clearly remember Aussie born supposed football fans supporting the the English first division. I know this well because at that time ‘The Big Match” had started on the ABC & knowing that I was a football fan from England many ManU Or Arsenal born & bred in Manly /Newtown/Blacktown supporters wanted to discuss “their” team with me.
I put myself back in Sheffield & tried to imagine wanting to discuss anything but the Owls & Blades. Seemed bizarre behaviour to me,particularly when I tried to discuss local football with them. . You’d think that you’d only be interested in improving your own football & standing by it regardless of its standard.
So I asked myself the question re the sporting psyche of Australians do they only follow a sport wholeheartedly if its considered to be the best or amongst the best ? This is also at the time remember when SW&P was paramount,yet there were obviously many Australians who were selective in what they applied SW&P to. Definitely to the local game ,but somehow English Football was excluded.
My own personal observation is that because sport is a major part of Australias psyche ( helping national identity,because in simplistic terms its a young nation & sport allows a quick direct means of national identity rather than wait for years of history across a broad spectrum of life to do so) winners ,success therefore respect by the Australian public is important.
Can anybody honestly say that football as a sport has given this to Australians consistently over the years.
Hence the RW article when AU failed. Not because she has a paranoid hatred of football,but because in the psyche of Australian sports followers AU committed the cardinal sin it failed,but not only that it failed,failed convincingly.
The A-League will succeed like the J-League when its done its apprenticeship & clubs are playing like Gamba Osaka & we win the ACL. Also the Socceroos are consistently in the top 20 FIFA nations.
Until then football is battling the Australian sporting/winner mentality & we can condemn “Aussies” in ManU Arsenal shirts till the cows come home it wont change until football is seen as a “winner” in Australia in the same vain as the cricket team is regardless of a few hiccups lately.
Also please no arguments that its ten times harder to acheive in football in the world than cricket. We know football & crickets place in the world sporting order. But that is irrelevant in Australia a country that sees sporting winners as part of itself. Who cares if you climb Mount Everest in a pair of thongs & a Jackie Howe singlet & your tent is a tea towel with a picture of the Blue mountains on it,did you reach the summit? No died 5 metres from the top. Bloody failure.
Slippery Jim said | November 26th 2008 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Pippu, I thought you would like this article the moment it mentioned Mohamed Bin Hammam’s backflip, since you drew attention to this several weeks ago in relation to our WC bid
As as I am a purist by nature, I will be glad to see an A-League in the future with only Australian clubs participating. I personally found it hilarious shortly after the fact that we have a deadline to get rid of the kiwis that they suddenly claimed to be a club of Aussies, in an Aussie team ‘based in New Zealand’.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2008 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
sj
Your memory is good!
I thought you had disappeared, and then I got paranoid because it might have been that you thought MC and I had morphed into one
Millster said | November 26th 2008 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
Towser – insightful, humorous, sensational and spot-on analysis. As someone who, not unlike you, calls Australia home but was not born here and indeed still has a heart-string back to France, I totally empathise and agree with what you write.
Koala Bear said | November 26th 2008 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Towser,
I believe you can have an EPL team and a HAL team and love them both …. It doesn’t stop me sneaking out to watch SFC on Fox at the CRSL … and if I still lived in Sydney I would be out at the SFS ..
I started to follow Chelsea way back in 1972 and as a football loving Aussie, I ain’t about to stop now. Even if the SFC won the FIFA World Club Championship, which they will soon enough. Sorry, I have an attachment to Chelsea, when there was nothing else to speak of in Australia .. I can’t let go now.!. Not now.!. We are poised to take out the double… Hey Slippery Jim….
~~~~~~~
KB
Michael C said | November 26th 2008 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
Ronnie from Lonnie -
we all wondered that question seeing kids buying and wearing Chicago Bulls tops with Michael Jordans number on them.
Some things are potentially more a fashion statement than a wholehearted sporting passion.
or – -
a realistic appraisal that the local product is deficient. And, seemingly not worthy of having $100 spent on a replica ‘top’ (which in many cases is not overly recogniseable).
Towser said | November 26th 2008 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
KB
No doubt you can support both. Problem is the majority still support the Chelseas only. Until the majority in Sydney support SFC over Chelsea, Football is unlike other sports in Australia only reaching a small part of its following via the A-League.
If you watched the Big Match & followed Chelsea do you remember Peter Osgood(now left this mortal coil) scoring an incredible goal whilst laying almost prone on the ground? How he generated enough power to score from that position still puzzles me today.
Millster said | November 26th 2008 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
I agree in part with KB – one can have a foreign and an Aussie team and give each passionate support.
One dimension that annoys me though is the EPL – centricity of the foreign dimension. I have friends who support due to their ethnic backgrounds teams like Greece, Italy, France, and Turkey at international level. Do they dig down into their roots and family history to determine who they should support at club level using the same lineage argument then? (just as I have done to give me years of support for PSG?) Sadly no.
There is almost this view that you have to have an EPL club. Even I have had to decide on who to mention when I get asked, after saying I love Sydney FC and PSG the usual question “but who in England”. My answer is Spurs but on the most tenuous of grounds, in fact its almost a random choice. But its sad I even have to go there.
Anyway how good would it be if people who were compelled to have a team from a major non-Australian nation actually showed us the diversity in our society through the shirts they wore. I’m sure many of you, like me, take that little bit more notice when you see a guy or girl in a shirt which is not ‘big 4′, or Inter/Juve/Milan/Real/Barca and think wow here is someone who is really representing and may have an interesting basis for their passion. On a personal note I work adjacent to a proud Dumfernline man, and one of our lawyers is Benfica through and through. Those colours have been the basis of some facinating chats about our backgrounds, families and histories.
PS: KB this is not aimed at you as obviously 36 years of Chelski support is a serious set of roots in itself. I am more talking about those that have mindlessly picked up a big 4 club (or European super-club) in the last 10 or so years of EPL and UCL global saturation.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2008 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
” I am more talking about those that have mindlessly picked up a big 4 club (or European super-club) in the last 10 or so years of EPL and UCL global saturation. ”
Yes, my comment was directed at that exact same phenomenon, and I’m sure that’s where das was coming from as well.
Dave said | November 26th 2008 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
IMO There should be a HAL team based in new Zealand, why not? It gives the Kiwis an opportunity to support a team in a decent league. It gives football theopportunity to win a few more friends/supporters in our region. It allows young Kiwis to aspire to representing their club team in football. As long as the team in New Zealand remain viable eg crowds, sponsorship keep them in. Those narrow minded individuals who claim we shouldn’t give the Kiwis a helping hand have short memories…AFC have given Oz football a massive boost by allowing it into Asia…me thinks it only fair that we should spread some of the cheer to our neighbors who it appears will never have such a boost and are destined to remain in the football outpost known as Oceania (not to say there aren’t good players in the region but on the whole…)
l was born in Manchester and came to Oz at a young age. My father is a ManU supporter and watched the Busby Babes play. l have returned several times and seen United in action. l have been a supporter since primary school. At that stage in the 70s as far as l knew in Oz there was AFL in the Winter and Cricket in the Summer and a game amny at school just referred to as “Wog Ball”. This confused me a little as all the players l saw on the TV were Pommie. When the NSL came about l tried to follow Sth Melb and went to several games but for whatever reasons didn’t feel comfortable and didn’t see them as my team. l did watch them on and off over the years but my main interest was ManU through watching late night TV on Saturdays with mates.
It was only when the Socceroos played in Melb (36,000 shoe horned into Olympic Park in 1985 to watch 2nd leg of WC qualifier vs Scotland…Dalgleish, Hansen, Souness) l actually felt some connection to Oz football even though l played for a local club. All the talk amongst the players at training was of the English 1st Division.
It was not until HAL came about that l ever thought l would support an Oz club team. Some of my mates are members of the Victory like me and some, who are mad football, continue to look down on it and compare to Europe. Until we win more of these people over the game will remain in the background of most Aussies sporting thoughts.
It amuses me to watch news sports bulletins over the weekend where they will show EPL highlights and sometimes not HAL highlights?? Until the local media report HAL, ACL as the main footballing items consistently we will be behind the 8 ball.
It has been said many times but we need more football media people and it has started to improve but it is evolution not revolution.
l aslo continue to support ManU from afar but my attendance and money goes with MV…until more of Eurocentric and South American centric football lovers feel the same the game will advance at a slow pace instead of its potential to gallop forward.
Having said that if l had been transported forward to now from 4 years ago and saw what is happening now in football l would have been over the moon. The leaps forward have been astonishing from old sokkah. As with JLeague and MLS there will be some sliding back before more leaps forward but l am prepared to wait and stick with it…just think in about 12 months time MV will be playing home games in a purpose built rectangular stadium which seats 32,000!!! And the thing is they will fill it or near fill it for games.
Towser said | November 26th 2008 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
Dave said
“It amuses me to watch news sports bulletins over the weekend where they will show EPL highlights and sometimes not HAL highlights?? Until the local media report HAL, ACL as the main footballing items consistently we will be behind the 8 ball.”
Pretty much says it all about the current state of “Football ” affairs in Australia.
For many years now I’ve said that the FFA(& even its predecessor ) should be monitoring this Overseas to local football interest ratio via fan surveys.
Given that its predecessor thought that fan surveys were all about how much hot air could be blown around a room that would have been a waste of time. However this is not the case with the FFA who do send you fan surveys from time to time. Also their is an abundance of specialist football web sites like TWG & 442 who constantly give opinions & ask questions of fans. I dont like to repeat myself but I’ve got nothing else so I’ll trot out the same old figures from 2000 or thereabouts from a Sweeney Sports report. Of the fans with an overall interest in football compared to other sports(around 40%) 10% were interested in the NSL only,30% in the NSL & Overseas football & 60% in Overseas football only. A damning statistic.
I dont think it involved the Socceroos only domestic club football.
Slippery Jim said | November 26th 2008 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
Pippinu, I haven’t disappeared, and I certainly know the difference between you and Michael C!
I have just had to hit the brakes on posting during work hours due as I have been made aware that I should be setting an example for my underlings at work…
James said | November 26th 2008 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
FFA needs to be help the league develop an attracitve style, if the league can get up to scratch technically and provide good entertainment value then we have a chance of converting these euro fans
Dave said | November 26th 2008 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
James
You are right to a point. HAL will never get to the technical level of EPl or the like. However doesnt mean we dont strive to improve by training coaches better, bringing in quality imports etc.
Good entertainment…well l’ve seen some cracking HAL games MV v CCM last Friday wasn’t too shabby for a start and some crap EPL games…ever tried to sit through 90 mins of Bolton v Everton? Unless you’re a fan can be pretty hard going.
Also the reverse of course. Perhaps until the better HAL games far and away become more the norm then it will be difficult to drag in some of the o/s football lovers.
Koala Bear said | November 26th 2008 @ 4:56pm | Report comment
Towser, Millster, and Dave,
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/blogs/philip-micallef/aussie-way-winning-hearts-and-minds-146606/
I read this article sometime back and I thought it was interesting at the time. For Micallef touches on this very point… However, for me I’ll still have a likening for Chelsea while I still have my Chelsea Football match programs, I bought at Stamford Bridge with my favourite players King Ossie and Charlie Cooke.
I was a short time resident living in Chelsea in ‘72 and became attached to the club… I will hold a soft spot for the Chelsea although born and bread in Sydney with Greek heritage .. When I was growing up in Sydney local clubs came and went and the football was nothing to get excited over until the ABC started to show English Football “the Big Match” (Brian Moore) .. At last we had some decent Football to watch ..
I remember the touring Chelsea team that came out to play in Sydney in the very late ‘60. Dave Sexton mang. and a young Terry Venables capt… That’s when I started to get interested in the Chelsea FC… But I will admit as Micallef’s article reads that my Aussie Team, tho living on the Gold Coast, SFC, is becoming increasingly more important to me..
Finally we have a long term league in place that will grow and grow with the younger generations taking up memberships .. There is definitely a move to the HAL with the youngsters due to the success of our Australian National Football Team..
It certainly looks very bright for the future. What I experienced in my youth was so inferior to what the new generations will finally have and installed for them in the future is so exciting… So many prestigious tournaments, the HAL, ACL and the FIFA World Club Cup Championships .. You younger ones are very lucky indeed… Support it, and enjoy it, for Johnny Warren’s obsession and commitment made it possible for us all; his life long dream of Australian Football on the centre stage …
~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | November 26th 2008 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
sj
have you recently been promoted to the position of deputy-vice assistant manager?
Dave said | November 26th 2008 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
KB
l can forgive you for you knew no better
How could anybody fall for Chelski when ManU had a couple of players you may have heard of…Best, Law, Charlton??? Admittedly things were starting to wane by 1972 but…
Koala Bear said | November 26th 2008 @ 5:55pm | Report comment
Dave,
till this day, I have not been able to get that statement out of my mind…. And thought better to swim with the tide than argue… btw Man U have disgraced the the Chelsea’s blue reserve team’s strip this morning..
I will tell you my dark secret, something very true, and disturbing, which still haunts me to this very day. My first girlfriend, the one that broke my heart … said.. I have beautiful blue eyes…
Chelsea, tomorrow; the game that will put us thru to the next UCL knock out stage….
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Midfielder said | November 26th 2008 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
Jes
Back on topic for a bit, there are bids on the table for four FFA identified growth areas … being 2en Sydney, 2en Melbourne, The Gong / Canberra, there are only 2 areas allowed in the 2en Melbourne bid seems assured leaving a choice between 2 en Sydney, Gong, & Canberra.
WS cannot be left out simply its player base is so large and it is a real football heartland.
Meaning neither The Gong or Canberra get in………… Behind the Gong bid is Gordon Buttler owner of WIN corporation Australia’s largest regional TV company …….. and one of CH 10 major shareholders and someone who Obie One describes as one of Australia/s best business men, as I write this over 3, 000 registered supporters, the backing of Top Cat (Tim Cahill) and the police boys willing to build a massive training facility, a run down WIN stadium………. Canberra ACT government backing over 2, 000 registered supporters, a great stadium, local business and government support.
If we ranked these two bids against the Nix …….. would could bring the most to the table in a 12 team format.
Is past performance a key indicator ? …….. is a promise made by Obie One forever? ……….should bench marks be set for the Nix’s and if so do all clubs have to meet the bench marks? …….
I guess is the Nix bring what potential is their in NZ ……….. what has NZ football done since Hal started?
As I see it the NZ football family has made little progress in getting government support or even Recognition / are player number number increasing / is the media getting better / are the All Whites getting better / are TV rating for the A-League going up. …. any YF or NZ bloggers who read this your input on these questions would be helpful.
Jes its a hard call we have 2 maybe 3 places in a 14 team format it works, everyone gets in …….. in a 12 team format 2 will miss out ……… if we assume Canberra is the first out ………. and the 2en Sydney & Melbourne teams are in ….. its between the Gong supported by Gordon Buttler & Nix’s with the NZ potential market place .
From a business prospective both The Gong & Nix’s bring potential both have history … the Gong with the Wolves and a number of Socceroos in a football heartland ……… The Nix bring NZ potential and this is the big question what progress has NZ Football made………. I don’t have all the charts and forecast but my business brain says the Gong if a choice has to be made …. my heart says the Nix ………
Jes if you had to rank them how would you stand ……..
Redb said | November 26th 2008 @ 6:32pm | Report comment
ahhh Dave, that explains it, you were never an Essendon man to begin with. A Pom all along, not that there is anything wrong with that.
On topic, give me my local team any day over an oveseas club that I can only ever watch on the box.
Redb
Dave said | November 26th 2008 @ 6:56pm | Report comment
Redb
l saw Essendon play at Windy Hill, Western Oval, Arden St, Princess Park, MCG, Waverley, Victoria Park before l’d seen ManU in the flesh! At that time l was a member of Essendon and an overseas member of ManU…Bombers will always remain my AFL team, having watched them week in week out through lean times from 1969/70 to mid/late 70s.
Saw them play the 1st ever final at Waverley after having slept overnight outside WH to get the tickets in 1972, got belted by Saints. Stood in the rain and mud as well as been pi#@ed on at VP. Enjoyed every moment of it…my father actually took up supporting Melbourne…go figure.
Midfielder said | November 26th 2008 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
Redb
Hand on heart ….. not the other thing …….. if it worked out that the AFL could only run a 16 team format. I know this will not happen but bear with me a little.
So AFL can only run a 16 club league, You have your present 16 clubs and 2en Sydney & GCU. Accordingly two had to go.
Don’t name your two ….. but what criteria or system would you use to decide who goes ……. very similar to this Nix debate ….. I know the AFC will win out but I am interested how you would set up how to measure future potential of rival bidders and history of current players.
Slippery Jim said | November 26th 2008 @ 7:34pm | Report comment
Pippu, I have held my current position for some time, however I have move desks relatively recently and my PC is now visible to anyone walking past, so therefore having my fantasy EPL team slathered across the VDU while I am on tea break is deemed less-than motivating for my minions when I have to lecture them about not surfing the net during work hours – apparently my staring blankly at my screensaver in spare moments is more inspirational than the deft, frankly awe-inspiring, transfers that I make to ensure Chelsenal United AFC continue their reign of terror…
Ronnie from Lonnie said | November 26th 2008 @ 7:44pm | Report comment
Bit of both I reckon MC. Kids just lurve the glitz and glam of a world’s best league and the players (Jordan, Rodman, Kaka, Beckham, etc.). No doubting HAL is deficient in many areas but it’s our league. Our rivalries. Our local lads having a bash (even if the umpiring quality is deficient)
Towser’s comments yet again remind me of that classic Gideon Haigh comment “Australians regard as important those sports they are good at” – just like people from other countries, I guess.
No success means no media hype means languishing public interest. The WC qualifier of 29/11/1997 (AUS 2-2 IRA) is a textbook case of failure causing stagnation and inviting media ridicule.
I’d argue MV’s pathetic performance last season lost it supporters and momentum. 35000 turned up to watch MV play Perth in it’s 1st home game last season. 35000 vs. Perth! The numbers just kept dropping off as the season progressed and have never really recovered fully.
But football has come a long way when you look at vision of internationals played during the 1980’s – spot the crowd!
I don’t mind if people support HAL AND Euro teams (a friend supports SFC, ManuU, Barca, and Juve!), but it’d be nice if the ‘hoi poloi’ national league were given support and respect instead of playing servant to the EPL and it’s big 4.
Like Pipinnu I can’t understand the fanatacism for Euro teams for the very reasons he’s given.
And what I really can’t understand is how or why Bangkok can support an Arsenal department store! It’s EPL obsession and snobbery gone mad.
Millster – “There is almost this view that you have to have an EPL club” – true, and perhaps the media perpetuates this line.
But I’ve found there is something like a ghost army of closet football supporters. I’m amazed that whenever someone bravely raises the topic of ’soccer’ at parties, dinners, etc. a good percentage of people admit “Oh yeah, my uncle lived in Hull so I go for them” or “I’ve gone for QPR for years” or “I went to an NSL match” etc.
Makes me wonder what the true reach of football is in this country.
oikee said | November 26th 2008 @ 8:01pm | Report comment
Sorry to disturd you guys, just have to have a quick go at K.B hey you know that league cup K.B, is she not the most gorgous peice of art you have ever seen
just on the issue you brought up the other day about being Gold, K.B
When this beauty went missing in 1970 they had to make another one, guess what, its a goldie, so we now have a gold cup which is safely in the trohpy cabenet and they , as you know, found our little beauty again and we have used this one again ever since 2000, is she not just a superb creature, everyone wants to touch her i have been told. No i am not a fruitcake, just stirring you K.B.. cheers.
That gold one they have is only a baby, not a big beauty like the original. She has just turned 54, she does not look older than 24.
oikee said | November 26th 2008 @ 8:02pm | Report comment
Disturb,
not disturd.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2008 @ 8:09pm | Report comment
Mid
I can answer for Reb, the answers are obvious enough – I know he’d pretty much agree. You’re basically looking at my team and MC’s team. Here’s why:
1. Ignoring the Dees for one moment, NM and WB are two relatively central clubs in a cluttered Melbourne market (which explains why Footscray changed its name to Western Bulldogs – to try and reach those outer Western suburbs).
2. Both have been on life support for a while now. NM has been chasing markets anywhere and everywhere. The bullies have almost gone bankrupt so often people have lost count.
3. The fit is next to perfect. Wester Bulldogs -> moves seamlessly into Western Sydney (confusion with the RL side? maybe – or synergy?). Now NM is interesting. We know they shunned Gold Coast. But here is a history lesson for everyone, so too did Fitzroy shun moving to Brisbane in 1986. The Brisbane Bears are born, and in exactly 10 years, we end up with the Brisbane Lions. I have no doubt that the AFL Commissioners have this scenario in their back of their minds – and they’ll save themselves a couple hundred mill.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2008 @ 8:11pm | Report comment
sj
So I won’t be able to rely on you for fantasy league updates anymore!
Good to see you are a good role model at work. I try to be, I really do, but it’s a case of every 10 minutes or so, I’ll just have a quick look…
JonnyP said | November 26th 2008 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
Sorry to go back to earlier posts but I can’t let the dubious claim by Millster that ‘The home countries’ -Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and UK??(By which I assume you mean England?) should merge just so that New Zealand gets an easy passage to a world cup. These countries are individual nations and I have no idea why you insinuate they are”enjoying this perverse situation’ like they have some sort of advantage over anyone else. It’s totally ridiculous to try and remove countries from the map to try and ‘free up’ places for someone else. I suppose you cried at the break up of USSR and Yugoslavia as countries taking precious world cup spots were springing forth . Oops, I almost forgot Chekoslovakia but I suppose that was cancelled out by the Berlin Wall falling.
Michael C said | November 26th 2008 @ 8:24pm | Report comment
Ronnie from Lonnie -
the whole thing about ‘our league’ is ignoring those folk whose interest in soccer is primarily at the international (league and nation) levels whilst the ‘our own league’ that they follow might be NRL and AFL. There’s no particular need for such folk to get too fussed about a HAL side. Especially if, for people who ‘attend’ the NRL and AFL (and watch EPL etc on tele) and only otherwise attend the Socceroos – - then, most HAL games will be such a step down in most regards that ……. well……..again, keep the HAL as a cute little development/retirement league, and allow it to maybe build something organically regarding rivalries etc…………for now though, 3.5 years in, it’s all very ‘immature’.
But – - – there was probably a time pre the last 5 years or so of huge internet access – - and that is that it was a little ‘exotic’ to be worded up on a team from overseas. A bit of ego probably prevailed. A bit like the ego of the one person in the social group who come Melb Cup day is actually a half way regular punter and knows a bookie or two by name.
btw –
will the HAL be serious domestically when …… 80K turn up for SFC and NOT for Becks?
True Tah said | November 26th 2008 @ 8:41pm | Report comment
Millster,
on your point about the home nations, I would agree, but only that Ireland should be one team. In the GAA and Rugby, Ireland is treated as a whole.
If Wales and England need to be one nation, then you may as well have Austria and Germany together, there is a hell of a lot more in common between those two countries than Wales and England, what about Romania and Moldova.
And re: Wellington, someone mentioned there crowds are not so flash this year, and KB has advised that a crowd of 16K watched a womans underage WC game in North Harbour – why doesnt the Phoenix have a side in the W-League, there is clearly an appetite for womans futbol in NZ, they have an appetite for all womens sports there, netball and hockey – you could guarantee it would get bigger crowds than the other sides.
Then again NZ was the first country to give women the vote – not bad for a supposebly insular sporting backwater, eh Millster?
Midfielder said | November 26th 2008 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
TT
There was a reason for the vote for women in NZ …… we don’t get the vote ……… you don’t get any apple pie and ice cream.
Midfielder said | November 26th 2008 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
Pip & TT
Slap slap I said to leave teams out of it just …” what criteria or system would you use to decide who goes” … so you are saying
teams in a …”cluttered Melbourne market” ….Poor management (re your comment chasing markets and failing) …… & moving an existing teams to WS & GCU then who do you choose to go ….. those with poor management or those with excellent management.
Coming back to the Nix and applying the same logic you could move the Nix to the Gong ….. still play some home games in windy Wellie ……..
TT
Sorry I could not resist on the vote thing in NZ ……. actually worked their for just over three years in Northland in the city of Whangeria …… loved to stir up the locals fav joke get a mate in a pub at one end of the bar and say in a loud Ocker voice how come the blokes from Melbourne got the Greeks and Sydney got the Kiwis … mate goes Don’t know why do you ?…. Bastards from Melbourne got first choice ……. used to go down very well ….
Redb said | November 27th 2008 @ 7:10am | Report comment
Midfielder,
Sorry for the delay in posting, the last post was made sitting in an airport lounge in Port Lincoln when one of those pesky airport announcers insisted I board the plane.
your question in a nutshell: No names no pack drill – two clubs have to go in the AFL?
As the AFL is the elite comp for Aussie Rules IMO its goal should eventually be to have a more even spread of teams geographicially around Australia, thus the Melbourne based teams are in excess. The AFL has already begun this process but it is a long term goal and it is very sensitive to losing rusted on club supporters of certain Melb clubs. The offer to North Melb to relocate to the Gold Coast was part of that strategy.
In simple terms, my rules would revolve around some criteria, perhaps not unlike the requirements for the GC17 bidders who had to have a certain number of sponsors, potential members,etc.
So for an AFL team, perhaps you could set the following criteria say over a 3 year period:
25,000 members.
Profitable – perhaps defined as if the club makes a materail loss 3 years in a row this could be trigger for review.
Whether the club has to dip into the AFL’s emergency fund 2 years in a row.
Securing Major sponsor & 50 minor sponsors.
Ultimately, club support is a passionate subject for most people, the AFL knows clubs can re-build the classic examples are Geelong and Hawthorn, both were in real danger financially and are now two of the strongest clubs. So perhaps instead of 3 years, you set a 5 year time period, if the club is still struggling then its licence may need to be reviewed.
There is a big difference between the newer HAL franshise clubs and the 100+ year old Melb based AFL clubs.
I think the problem for some Melb teams is that they do not have a definable catchment. Melbourne is effectively the CBD, North Melb a tiny catchment in Melb’s inner north-west which is mostly commercial/industrial. The Western bulldogs should be Ok in this regard as Melbourne’s west is booming population wise, but it desperately needs success. The glamour clubs like Essendon, Collingwood and Carlton attract more non geographical support than the other Melb teams.
Redb
Michael C said | November 27th 2008 @ 7:27am | Report comment
Redb -
still a lot of water to go under the bridge, especially regarding stadium deals:
http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/call-for-state-help-on-venue-deals/2008/11/26/1227491635495.html
this 30/70 ratio for AFL in Melbourne vs more like 70/30 deals interstate??
Midfielder said | November 27th 2008 @ 7:59am | Report comment
Redb
Thanks for your post on the criteria, for club selection ……… MC interesting article you posted on the TD & AFL clubs…. but what can Vic gov do as is the request by the clubs.
Michael C said | November 27th 2008 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Midfielder -
the main thing is the Vic govt can assist the MCG trust in recognising that their major cash cow/major tennant – - the AFL – - ought be looked after a little better – - that the MCC and MCG trust must realise that without a successful AFL (including a good number of Melb based clubs – - as, any reduction will be felt hard by the major venues, perhaps 1 and sometimes 2 less games per week in Melbourne). It is therefore in their commercial interest to not screw over the AFL. At times, there has seemed a localised tall poppy issue, plus a ‘olympic’ sports style elitism that attempts to hijack a venue like the MCG.
Re Telstra Dome – - that’ll be interesting. The main thing is to make the public better aware that the combined membership of probably only about 25,000 of MVFC and Storm at present, (but I’ll use 30K) is being gifted about $9000 per person – - up front – - with their new venue. Plus the residuals via lack of private ownership stadium deals and potential upgrade of venue to a 40K capacity further down the track.
WHen this is compared to dribs and drabs of public/private partnership grants for specific projects (often related to drought proofing of shared facilities, or opening up training grounds for greater community access etc) – - comparing even a combined $10 or $20million every couple of years – - across 350,000 Victorian based AFL members, well, that equates out at about $30-60 per head………………a fair way off $9000 per head (and growing).
However – - the AFL previously manipulated the fixture (at the expense of crowds) for a couple of years to force the hand of the MCC over the finals ‘arrangement’. Now, the AFL has to work the MCC/MCG trust hopefully via the Govt, get them ‘on side’, whilst potentially trying to ‘force’ the hand of Telstra Dome to renegotiate better deals. If the AFL CAN get the Govt and MCG trust on side, then, the position of the AFL to operate in this space is improved.
And the reality for Telstra Dome – - they will lose MVFC, they don’t have Storm, they will be less likely to see any rectangular action – - as, Socceroos would remain at the MCG. Docklands desperately needs good relations with the AFL.
The ultimate bargaining chip for the AFL is to have the state government make positive noises about a potential future ’boutique’ 25-30K AFL stadium in Melbourne – - – this most certainly CAN be justified. Especially should the AFL be an 18 team competition (whether that is the AFL LONG term plan or not – - if it WILL be in the short term, then, use it to bargain) – - which might see an extra game in Melbourne on most weekends.
So – - there’s a fair bit that can be achieved for the AFL to present a united and organised lobby to the state government, and to assemble the forces of public opinion as well.
Especially if state & fed govts try to work out some ‘economic’ stimulus infrastructure projects – - and the argument the AFL can always mount is that partically all monies invested in the AFL actually recycle through the Australian economy. (okay, apart from a couple of $100K over in South Africa). At a time when the global economy is rather on the nose – - a relatively insulated and self sustaining domestic economy is ever more important to nurture.
(right now, you wouldn’t want to be 1.5 years off hosting a FIFA WC – - – would you? South AFrica must be getting terribly nervous. Perhaps by 2018, the global economy will be heading in the right direction again – - – but gee, for now, you’d have to be questioning the value proposition and revisting the cost-benefit modelling around hosting a FIFA WC. Similar to how the AFL is re-visiting the GC17 proposition. The old sums and assumptions need to be re-tested. We all know that any model, and the range of potential outcomes, is only as good as the assumptions up front.)
Midfielder said | November 27th 2008 @ 9:21am | Report comment
MC
Thanks for your post … but you have told me why the AFL wants the Vic gov to step in …….. my question is does the Vic gov own the grounds or control the trusts …… how can the Viv gov and moreover why should they help its not like the AFL was or is poorly managed either now or in the past or signed these deals without knowing what they where signing… maybe I am missing the point and TBH have almost no knowledge of the background behind the original deals ….. I am just confused over who owns the grounds … why the deals where signed in the first place …. and why the Vic gov should do something about it especially if the answer is someone else did a better deal….
Michael C said | November 27th 2008 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Redb -
the definable catchments -
interesting though, with a view to the zonal history, NOrth Melbourne was recruiting from up around Jacana, Broadie, Hadfield, Oak Park etc. And up buth up around Wang and Shep. Richmond had Mt.Waverley and Mildura region.
I know the TAC cup was partly because VFL/AFL clubs couldn’t be relied upon to ’service’ their zones as even handed as the HQ administration would desire (esp clubs like Carlton that spent their time and money on buying ready made talent from interstate or other clubs rather than developing internally within their zones – - – Carlton were a sporting parasite in that respect, – - a cashed up parasite).
And since then, we’ve had community camps during pre-season etc. BUt, perhaps, clubs, and their community camps need to revert back to a pseudo ‘zonal’ arrangement, such that proper community partnerships/relationships can be nurtured. The example is that CCM in the HAL offers a community partnership that is permanent. AFL clubs other than Geelong don’t really have that through Victoria.
I’d like to see AFL Victoria ‘community zones’. It might simply be that clubs do 75% of their ‘community’ activity within said zone. I know certain clubs still try to nurture certain areas, esp St.Kilda down through Frankston, but gee, over the years, Hawthron was pretty identifiable with that area (Chelsea, Frankston etc).
Michael C said | November 27th 2008 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Midfielder -
The government-appointed MCG Trust vests administration of the Melbourne Cricket Ground in the Melbourne Cricket Club.
The eight-person Trust meets bi-monthly to discuss general policy on ground management and development. All trustees are State Government nominees.
The State Govt presumably has a little leverage on this front.
The Melbourne Cricket Club (MCC) is ground manager on behalf of the Victorian Government appointed MCG Trust.
So – somewhere down the line, the State Govt is a ’stakeholder’ in the relationships at play.
Now – one key factor here is that the state govt made a minimal contribution to the MCG redevelopment – - now, might be a good time for the state govt to relieve the MCC of some of it’s debt and thus reduce the burden upon the MCC, it’s members and it’s major tennant (the AFL). (alas, that isn’t deemed as sexy as ‘creating jobs’ via an infrastructure project – - – and that’s where the AFL has to ensure that they are prioritsed appropriately for a boutique venue – - – because, unless something amazing happens in the soccer world or rugby world, the next squared stadium should have to pay for itself to expand to 40K).
Michael C said | November 27th 2008 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Telstra Dome – Docklands is interesting.
Remember, back in the mid ’90s, the Kennett era. Victoria had been broke. Kennett was attempting big Melbourne City projects. Docklands redevelopment was highly desired. The centrepiece to give the ‘zone’ or ‘precinct’ a profile and some allure was to be a ‘waterside’ stadium. Initially, it was to be a rectangle stadium. It couldn’t get off the ground – - the govt had no money and private backers wouldn’t go near it.
The only way to secure the project was to get the AFL on board. The AFL was given a carrot of ulitimate stadium full ownership. They sold Waverley, invested in Docklands ($30mill or so). The Docklands stadium goes ahead as does the entire precinct in it’s wake. The Govt is done a huge favour by the AFL, the AFL get’s to be in the prime location and a stadium with a roof – - – but, the flipside is it’s privately owned and operated with the AFL as major tennant.
It’s not the AFL’s fault that the designers didn’t appropriately factor in grass growth/health, and that the theoretical ‘mobile’ stands were more trouble than they’re worth!!
At any rate – - Telstra Dome, is privately owned. It’s the stadium the govt desired where they desired.
The AFL, had been left on a limb with Waverley by previous state govts not fulfilling commitments to extend a public transport connection to the ground.
Waverley became a practicle ‘white elephant’ as a result.
The AFL, via it’s success, had out grown the many suburban venues, upgrade of which would be unviable, and many got closed in the wake of stadium catastrophes in England (i.e. as health and fire hazards).
So, 9 Melb teams are forced to squeeze into 2 venues.
AFL no longer own either (at this point in time).
State Govt has benefitted hugely, and done stuff all in return.
The AFL owes it to the Docklands tennant clubs to support them in negotiations – - because, back when they were negotiating in the first place, the AFL was pre-occuppied with it’s own dealings with the MCC over finals – - that the AFL effectively forced clubs into Docklands and left them to sink or swim on their own. (poorly managed in the extreme).
The ‘demand’ for the venue only exists because there are 10 Vic clubs using it during winter. Soccer is now a summer sport and Storm will never be at Docklands, nor, a potential super 14/16 club – - so, the AFL needs to force some re-negotiations now from a position of strength – - and that would be added to greatly should the State Govt agree in principle to the concept of a new boutique AFL stadium (even if it were never actually intended to be built!!).
so, for the State Govt to go and lavish $270m plus the promise of more plus the on going savings onto the square ground mob – - – it’s a sick joke in this city.
Pippinu said | November 27th 2008 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Mid
sorry about jumping in without reading your question properly – although I thought you may have given me some credit for an honest answer!
The other interesting aspect about the bullies and NM is that they were part of the three expansion clubs in 1925 (along with Hawthorn). For the decades that followed, they had the lowest support and regularly swapped around the bottom three spots, so there are sound historic reasons why, say, NM and WB do not have massive followings (although I should hasten to add that their membership numbers are certainly much higher than you see in the other codes).
Hawthorn won 9 premierships between 1971 and this season, and as a consequence, have grown a decent following (not to mention that thay hve much of the Eastern suburbs sewn up).
Even with 4 premierships in 24 years, NM has struggled to grow its supporter base in a significant degree, and that is because of the historic reasons, as well as coming from a central part of Melbourne replete with successful clubs (Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon).
Redb mentioned that the bullies have most of the Western suburbs to themselves (little overlap from Essendon and Geelong), but once again, one premiership in 84 seasons in the VFL/AFL says it all.
Here are some sombering facts and figures:
1. After going 70 years without a premiership, South Melbourne was packed off to Sydney.
2. After going 53 years without a premiership, Fitzroy was forcibly merged with Brisbane.
3. WB has now gone 54 years without a premiership – the most of any modern day club – next is Melbourne going 44 years without one, but at least they have made the grand final twice in last 20 years, WB hasn’t even been there in last 47 years – that’s my whole life!! (I am conscious that I could be the cause, and WB will only make a grand final after I breathe my last breath)
Midfielder said | November 27th 2008 @ 11:35am | Report comment
Pip
Have you tho you may be a curse as is being discussed in another thread and may the curse of the Pip could one day become more famous than the curse of ……
THE CURSE OF NORM SMITH (from SJ thread today)
A curse on Melbourne Demons AFL club is used to explain why they have failed to win a premiership since it sacked Norm in the middle of the 1965 season.
Smith had coached fourteen years and won six premierships, including the previous season, but his relationship with the club grew strained and the multiple premierships winning coach was sacked.
He attacked the club in the media following his dismissal, and claimed they would never win another premiership, which has remained true to this day.
Midfielder said | November 27th 2008 @ 11:40am | Report comment
MC
Thanks for the back ground information
Michael C said | November 27th 2008 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Midfielder -
Just why it is so critical when talking of the Bullies and North,
the main issue is that North can host 28K and lose…that’s right…..lose money,……………they hosted the Swans, got 28K and lost $1000. Geelong down at Skilled host 24K and make $600K. That gives a clear idea of the chasm that can exist. And why Geelong is one of the best placed teams in the competition having such a distinct home ground advantage in more ways than one, and NOT being a 2-3 hour plane flight from Melb and over half of the competition.
The fact that TD were willing to give MVFC a fixed rate deal that allows MVFC to attract low 20K’s and not be going broke is example enough…………that………….just as any regular person would exercise the right to seek a cheaper home loan, or a better phone plan……..likewise, the AFL needs to assist it clubs to get a better deal. Unfortunately there’s not many ‘players’ in the stadium market. And, the newest one is fully built by the state government and is taking business away from a privately built and owned stadium.
WHo in their right mind would ever again contemplate a private stadium investment in Melbourne???? You wouldn’t. The State Govt will provide a tax payer funded non profit geared stadium as your competition!!?!?!
And yet, no state govt is willing to build a rail link to the airport competition to citilink.
The irony though is, that EAstlink (the newest tollway) is losing over $200K daily. Perhaps, when they go broke and the road is still there…………that the users might benefit……….(the investors won’t). Perhaps, the same might happen at Docklands. The sooner the operators go broke the sooner the AFL might get their hands on it??
Pippinu said | November 27th 2008 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
MC and Mid
I’ve always known about this issue, but I didn’t understand the full extent of the problem till I read an article in The Age today. Incredibly, I find that my team, ol’ struggling WB, supposedly on life support, lose $5 mill in comparison to Geelong because of its stadium deal. WB has more members than Geelong, yet Geelong is pulling in an extra $5 mill because they control their shitty little ground.
Which makes me wonder – MC – time for NM and WB to band together and approach whoever looks after Princes Park.
Get 25,000 in that ground every fortnight, and you’re on par with Geelong. $5 mill per annum is basically the difference between going broke and thriving!
How quickly would the TD management change their tune if that threat hung over their head? Is it an option? That’s where the bullies were playing before they moved to the Dome in 2000.
Michael C said | November 27th 2008 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
Pippinu -
The “Ballarat Road Roos” – -
how about play out of Skinner reserve out at Sunshine????
Certainly though, I’ve been a fan of Princes Park (whatever it’s called), but, Carlton have demolished the old wooden stand and are doing whatever it is they’re doing out there.
But, like you, I can’t understand why that was never earmarked as a boutique stadium.
It’s brilliant for about 20,000 out there, I’d attend NOrth home games and still get a car park after the game had started!!!
oikee said | November 27th 2008 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
I love Boutique M.C you know i love that word, i just came back to see if K.B has read my only post. I know your out there K.B, i will turn into a storker if you dont respond.
Michael C said | November 27th 2008 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
KB’s probably down at the boutique buying a frock………….for his mum………….Doris,……………..who’s going out with Jimbo.
btw – Pip
that’s why the AFL is after the State Govt to make some appropriate noises in favour (even just in principle) of a ’boutique’ AFL stadium. Get that, and the AFL has an argument to TD.
Victer said | November 27th 2008 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Really over AFL issues being seeped over in to the football part of this forum.
Redb said | November 27th 2008 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
MC,
The intro of the draft pretty much ended zones for the VFL clubs, its noticeable in south-western Victoria from Portland to Warrnambool the Essendon influence from past years. That has waned in recent years.
Good to see the Vic clubs getting together to sort out this stadium rubbish. I have no problem with the Vic govt funding of the rectangular stadium, but disagree with soccer or rugby league getting a better deal at lower crowd levels, – that’s rubbish.
Redb
Michael C said | November 27th 2008 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
Redb -
and that’s the thing – - you can’t work too much in isolation when the govt starts intervening in a highly competitive ‘economy’ (that of ‘football’).
Would a liberal govt have done it????
Redb said | November 27th 2008 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
MC,
Dunno, maybe we should bring back Jeff as Premier and persuade Justin Madden to ditch Labour and the Planning Ministry and get back into Sport. LOL
Redb
oikee said | November 27th 2008 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Koala Bear said | November 27th 2008 @ 6:02pm | Report comment
Oikee wrote: I love Boutique M.C you know i love that word, i just came back to see if K.B has read my only post. I know your out there K.B, i will turn into a storker if you dont respond.
Oikee, I must say if you have not done so already, when you said you are going to stork me, I have to pin you down on, which form are you likely take, so I can greet you accordingly…
Oikee Storker..
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pMLJo-fb9hI
Oikee Bronco Storker..
http://au.youtube.com/user/storker?ob=1
A look a like Haans, the Viking Salior “Stalker”…..
http://jessmo.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/old-lady.jpg
Regla Australiana/Balón Juego
Lads what a marvelous idea!! A Grooky Boutique Store for the laddies at Princess Park .. I am not sure where Oilkee fits in here. Is he the Storker in the Zoo? or is it the Bronco Stalker on the Whitsunday Marina with Haans the Viking Sailor on holidays with Redb … ?
Oikee, there are only two Gold World Cups that I know of, the FIFA world cup and the Rugby Union World Cup, all others are Aluminium painted Gold… However one must not forget the Clayton’s World Clay Potty…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
oikee said | November 28th 2008 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Thanks for the response K.B Just goes to show GOLD is not all its cracked up to be K.B i know your impressed with that League Cup, all the people are, dont fight it K.B embrace it.
And we have a little gold one just in case you soccer holigans try to steal this one like the Union guys who stole this sucker before, why would you not want to steal it hey K.B, she’s a beauty. Cheers mate, will leave you alone now, my storking days are well over.
Jesse Fink said | November 28th 2008 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Midfielder, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. To be honest, I think if the Canberra and South Coast bids were being smart, they would unite. It’’s essentially the same market. The NSW “south coast” goes all the way down to Eden and takes in Batemans Bay, which is not far east from Canberra. You could have a united team playing home games in Wollongong and Canberra. Why not?
Midfielder said | November 28th 2008 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Jes
Let me think on that one that’s 6 games each ……… The off the top problem I see is the gong become a team for southern Sydney both the beach & Western Suburbs much like northern Sydney providers the Mariners with some fans…. but will give it some more tho …….. any idea on how long it takes to go from Canberra to the Gong ??
Redb said | November 28th 2008 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Ohh c’mon KB we all know that’s Doris of CRSL fame and alledged flame of your life. It’s Ok to admit it.
the question you have to ask is why was she on Hamilton Island?, perhaps to escape your fiendish clutches.
Redb
Koala Bear said | November 28th 2008 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
Oikee,
gold is over $900 US an ounce on the ASX.. I suggest it’s worth a lot more than you realise, because of the current climate of the world’s financial crisis…
One last comment I have come across some interesting news .. Since the defection of Wayne Bennett to the Saints riding off into the sunset on the original Bronco horse … Bronco headquarters have been advertising for replacements; for a new horse and an assistant coach… some of the applicants have been breathtaking..
Mr Edd the new Bronko’s horse and Oikee your cousin Denis, the new assistant coach … Exciting times ahead at Suncorp…
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu9QLZvhLyI&NR=1
btw I am pleased to hear you have decided to return to the ZOO..
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | November 28th 2008 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
“any idea on how long it takes to go from Canberra to the Gong ?? ”
Mid
might be a bit closer than driving to the SFS.
We already know where the 11th and 12th teams are going.
The FFA have not really made specific noises about the timing for going to 14 teams.
Joe FC said | November 28th 2008 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Jesse
While there is some common geographical area for Canberra/Sth Coast you seem to be ignoring the inland districts surrounding ACT i.e. Goulburn, Cooma, Yass, Gundagai etc. I’m not sure how much affinity the residents of these towns would have for a “Sth Coast” team. Also the driving distance between the two cities is approximately 230kms, a long way to go for a home game.
Koala Bear said | November 28th 2008 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
Redb,
c’mon laddie you’re not suggesting your yachtie mate (captain) of your vessel is Doris, I know Doris, and that’s not Doris and Doris tho not a great looking sort and president of the CRSL Ladies Auxiliary in charge of the Lamington drive for the 2018 World Cup bid whom appears on the CRSL banner of the URL is capable of changing a differential of a Toyota team bus… So please tell the truth, you’re in love with Haans the Viking Sailor and just wanted to show the world of your romantic escape on the high seas from Melbourne to Whitsunday island.. Not that there is anything wrong with that.. laddie…
~~~~~~~~~
KB
Redb said | November 28th 2008 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
KB,
and I thought denial was a river in Eygpt. If you look close enough you’ll see the residue of coconut on the left bum cheek right next to the koala bear tattoo and differential grease mark.
Redb