By Spiro Zavos
May 27th 2009 @ 4:19am
Can the British and Irish Lions roar in South Africa?
British and Irish Lions team coach Ian McGeechan attends a training session in Johannesburg, Tuesday, May 26, 2009. The Lions are in the country for a three-test tour. AP Photo
Just like first girlfriends are fondly remembered, so too are first sightings of touring rugby sides. For me, my first girlfriend in rugby terms was the British and Irish Lions side.
As a small boy, I was part of a big crowd at Athletic Park in Wellington to watch the British Lions (as they were known then) play the All Blacks in 1950.
The vivid red of the Lions jerseys, the way the players put their hands in the pockets of their baggy white shirts and, especially, the brilliant backplay of the Welsh centres, the burly Dr Jack Matthews and the immaculate Blendyn Williams, and the magic of Jackie Kyle, remain with me to this day as treasured memories.
Fast forward now more than fifty years.
The Lions are touring Australia. They are in Canberra for a match against the ACT Brumbies. On the day of the match, my wife and I go to the Australian National Gallery and find we are virtually swamped by middle aged couples in the main wearing the distinctive Lions jerseys.
Four years later another scene fixes itself in my memory, again involving the supporters.
The All Blacks have defeated the Lions at Christchurch in the first Test of the series. The opening seconds of the match featured an outrageous slam-tackle on Brian O’Driscoll. The Lions captain and outstanding centre (in great line of Matthews and Williams) was out of the game and the series virtually before it had started.
The night was cold, with heavy rain coming down like nails. Yet, despite the O’Driscoll incident and the loss, the Lions supporters coming out of the stadium were in good spirits.
There was no bitterness. But there was plenty of singing and rousing choruses of “The Lion roars tonight …”
Now four years on from the New Zealand tour the Lions supporters have begun their trek through South Africa.
On Saturday night on Fox Sports 501 at 11 o’clock the tour opens at Rustenberg. If ever a group of supporters deserved to be rewarded for their loyalty and good humour, and love of their team and rugby, the Lions supporters are that group.
The good omens for them are that the coach Ian McGeechan has a strong record of success in South Africa. He was a Test player on the 1974 tour, which saw the Lions defeat the Springboks. In 1997, he coached the Lions to another series victory over the Springboks.
In that 1997 series, the Springboks scored far more tries than the Lions. But they could not kick their penalties.
If there is any weakness in the probable Springboks side it will be in goal-kicking, where Ruan Pienaar, the favoured five-eighths and kicker, is not in the class of Percy Montgomery or the probable Lions kickers, Ronan O’Gara and Stephen Jones.
The Lions are a touring side brought together every four years. On many tours, notably in 2001 and 2005, the team which is drawn from the Home Unions of Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England does not gel.
There are often factions centered around players from one of the countries that is at odds with the management.
In 2001, the disruptive faction was made up of English players who objected to the selection policies of Graham Henry, then the coach of Wales. In 2005, there was a Welsh faction that objected to the perceived England-bias of Sir Clive Woodward, the then coach of England.
McGeechan is aware of the dangers of factionalism on Lions tours. He was the coach of the mid-week Lions in 2005 who were undefeated and, in a sense, represented another faction within the squad.
By now, too, the players who have known only professional rugby in their senior careers are used to playing with players from different countries. McGeechan has praised the way the players have come together as a group in the training sessions in the week before the tour started.
So I would expect that this Lions side will be a united, dedicated squad.
But will its playing strengths be up to defeating the Springboks, who should be a more formidable side than the team that won the Rugby World Cup in 2007?
If you compare the European Cup final between Leinster and Leicester with the Super 14 semi-final between the Bulls and the Crusaders, there can be no doubt about where the quality players reside.
The Bulls looked to be about 20-points better than Leinster.
But will superiority of player talent translate into a series victory for the Springboks? The bookmakers are trying to drum up business by establishing the Springboks as favourites to win 3-0 in the series.
The magic of the Lions is that every four years a team is selected. That team becomes a unique side. Generally these Lions sides, and the 1950 side is a case in point, are less than the sum of their individual parts.
Occasionally, in 1971, 1974, 1989 and 1997, the chemistry is created where a team is greater than the sum of its parts. The question that is going to be answered in the next month or so is whether Ian McGeechan’s Lions are one of those sides.
Personally, I can’t believe that this will happen. But then, I didn’t think the Springboks could win the 2007 Rugby World Cup either.
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GladFop said | May 27th 2009 @ 5:12am | Report comment
An old anecdote, but apparently based on fact, goes like this: in an early game of one of the Lions’ tours – probably the tour you’re talking about, Spiro – the Lions swept toward their opponents tryline. The man with the ball had only to pass to his support for the score, but he didn’t, was tackled, and the try went begging. When asked later why he hadn’t unloaded the ball carrier, a Scot said, indignantly, “Because he’s a damn taffy.”
Frank O'Keeffe said | May 27th 2009 @ 6:56am | Report comment
Spiro,
You’ve lived an incredible life – I’d have loved to have seen Jack Kyle play. You could argue when I’m your age that I’ll be able to say I saw so and so, but the modern game doesn’t seem to breed individual stars like the amateur game did. Not a lot of players stand out as characters and individuals these days.
None the less I’m psyched about the Lions tour starting. I was actually hoping to make the trip to South Africa to catch one game, but it wasn’t to be and I couldn’t have gotten tickets anyway. I really hope the Lions win because there’s some people who don’t feel the Lions tour is as special these days. It’s mainly because everybody expects the Boks to win. When the combined strength of the home unions isn’t enough to rival one nation then something’s wrong.
I have hope for the Lions though…
Gerry Faehrmann said | May 27th 2009 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Ahhh, the memories!
pothale said | May 27th 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment
Hope is a great thing, Frank.
Am looking forward to heading south in middle of June for the midweek games and the first Test – might even manage to stay for the second. It’ll all be over at that point – with the Lions holding the barrel for the Boks to stare down as they contemplate their third test defeat.
This will be a rout by the Lions. Complacency, arrogance, and a misplaced sense of superiority based on a continuous running game unfettered by the normal ebbs and flows of a match that will find their way back into the game with the changed laws at maul and breakdown.
And then I wake up….
Spiro Zavos said | May 27th 2009 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Further to my point about the factions dogging the Lions in the past, Paul O’Connell has told the Daily Mail’s Peter Jackson that ‘this time we’ll play for the Lions jersey.’ He said the system of two coaches, one for the Saturday side (Clive Woodward) and one for the Wednesday side (Ian McGeechan) meant that justice wasn’t done to the Lions jerseys.
In the 1950s Test the Lions kept to the Corinthian spirit of British rugby by not throwing long lineouts to their two unmarked men at the end of the lineout.
It wasn’t until Carwyn James coached the Lions in 1971 that they became serious about winning. James solved the problem of factions and Welsh tendency to be Taffy groupers by building his Test side around the Welsh stars. James himself, ironically, was never given the chance to coach Wales (the fact that he was gay may have been a reason) even though he ranks with Fred Allen and Rod Macqueen as the great Test coaches of the last 40 years.
katzilla said | May 27th 2009 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Ah Spiro, your mention of Athletic Park brings back fond memories. I saw the last S14 match there between the Highlanders and the Canes.
The Lions fans are probably my favourite fans to have come to my town. And far and away the best british fans (the Barmy Army think they’re awesome but they only ever have 2-3 songs and they get a repetitive after 5 days, well 4 days if they’re playing nz)
In 2005 i went back to NZ for the Wellington test and without a doubt every fan i met was pleasant and polite. A fair bit of banter was exchanged but all in good spirits. Did you know there wasn’t a campervan available in the entire country during that tour? Says alot for the make up of the Lions fan base. Middle Aged couples enjoying the sight and sounds with some rugby thrown in.
Hope the series is close. I’d be happy if the Lions got a game off the Saffas
David said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Hey, Mr Zavos, how good was the game between the Brumbies and the Briish Lions – the second-string Brumbies really took it to the Lions who got a big scare that cold night in Canberra.
I really hope that the non-Wallaby Brumbies can defeat the Lions if they ever return to Australia.
Spiro Zavos said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:14am | Report comment
That Brumbies-Lions match was a beauty. It was won on time I think by Austen Healy scoring a cheeky try. He then stuffed things up for the Lions by writing columns saying that he should be in the Test side. Grumpy Graham Henry wasn’t amused. That Lions side came close to beating the Wallabies, winning the first Test, being in front at halftime in the second (remember Jonny Wilkinson’s pass to Joe Roff that brought the Wallabies back immediately after halftime?). And in the third Test Harrison had to steal a lineout to stop a Lions last-ditch onslaught to win the match.
James Mortimer said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:15am | Report comment
Yeah Katzilla, I fondly remember Athletic Park as well.
I was at the last “official” match, which if memory serves me correctly was Otago V Wellington. Still have the old T-shirt which says “Full time at Athletic Park”.
Also had the privledge of seeing the AB’s smash the Wallabies in 96, when they turned their back on the haka and walked back to their tryline.
Such memories are better than my first lady experience.
Also remember in 1993 and 2001 seeing hordes of red jerseys where ever I was, bars, shops even restaurants.
A magic experience that is unrivalled by any sporting event in the world.
pothale said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:17am | Report comment
Funny you should pick that quote, Spiro. It’s a Paulie classic, straight out of the Munster handbook on pride first in the team and in the jersey. He has repeated this mantra in a number of interviews he gave including one for the Sky Sports.
It’ll be interesting to see if he can pull this off with the Munster contingent whittled down a bit. However, I think some of it got instilled into the Ireland team this season, and that’ll help depending on who Geech puts into the test team.
You’re a mine of information and little nuggets. Never knew that Carwyn James was gay – fancy that. did they really only become serious about winning when he became coach? If you listen to Tony O’Reilly talk about his Lions days, you’d never get that impression.
David said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:21am | Report comment
If only we had a southern hemisphere version of the Lions – for many years I had an Anzacs guernsey bought from the local Canterbury shop in Canberra. I know many Roarers would disagree but the cream of the Southern Hemisphere taking on the Lions.
Hemjay said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:32am | Report comment
David,
An ANZAC team would be fantastic but imagine the possibilitys of a SANZAR team. Now that would be letahal and I doubt anyone would get close to a team with the Likes of Giteau, Carter, Habana, Sivivatu, Ioane, Nonu, Botha, Matfield, George Smith, Richie McCaw, Stirling to name a few
The potential of a team combining the best of the three nations who just happen to be ranked number 1-3 in the world are huge. All history has a starting point and maybe just maybe its about time SANZAR thought of this imagine the revenue it would generate it would be huge.
Spiro Zavos said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:35am | Report comment
Carwyn James read all the New Zealand newspapers the season before the Lions tour, and knew more about New Zealand rugby, its strengths and weaknesses, than the All Blacks selectors did. They got rid of Fergi McCormack with a terrific kicking game by Barry John and they brought a synchronised back-three counter-attack to rugby tactics that bemused the New Zealand defensive systems.
To their credit, the New Zealanders adopted this system more efficiently than the British nations did.
Carwyn James, a very nifty five-eighths in his day, never represented for Wales, not did he coached Wales although he coached Llanelli I think to a victory over the All Blacks.
He died in an Italian hotel, lonely and broken, a sad ending for a man who was charming, intelligent, a fine writer and talker and a great coach, the classic prophet without honour in his own country.
pothale said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Didn’t know there was such a tragic tale attached to the man.
He was capped for Wales though – a couple of times in 1958. But played at the same time as Cliff Morgan. He also stood as a candidate in British General Election in the 70’s. He coached Rovigo in Italy to the Championship. And died in a Dutch hotel in 1983, aged 54.
pothale said | May 27th 2009 @ 11:55am | Report comment
He received some honour posthumously evidently. The sports building of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth is named after him, as is the playing field at Cefneithin RFC.
Fred Magee said | May 27th 2009 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
The Lions hold a special place for me. A mate invited me down to join him for the second Test v Australia in 2001. I didnt fully grasp how big they were until I arrived in the Melbourne CBD to see a sea of red. It was incredible. More importantly, there sense of comraderie and good fun. I went to the game with Lions fans and after the Australian win, ventured back to the Sheraton Melbourne where other Lions tour groups were staying. After about an hour of quiet disappointment, they all congratulated me on the win (like I had played the full 80), plenty of banter and laughs. This continued into Sydney the week after where seeing the old two ‘wings’ of Stadium Australia awash in red.
I firmly believe the success of the Lions tour led to the success of the RWC in 2003 and since have followed each tour with great interest and the fact that it brings very fond memories. It is something that I hope is preserved for many a tour to come.
Rusty said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Was in Melbourne for the last Lions tour of Australia and the atmosphere was fantastic. I hope the same can be found in SA, Im just sad I wont be there to experience it.
On a side note – providing PDV pays attention to the Bulls exploits then with Steyn the kicking should not be an issue this time round
stuff happens said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
One of my favourite stories about Carwyn (which I’ve mentioned before on the roar; so apologies if you remember) takes place during the battle of Canterbury a week or so before the first test on the ‘71 tour.Barry John, wisely not picked, is sitting in the stand next to Carwyn. Virtual mayhem on the paddock as Canterbury try & belt the Lions & Willie John screaming from the touchline to be allowed on the field ‘to sort those bastards out’. While all this was happening Carwyn, who often seemed to be dreaming, turned to Barry John & said ‘Fergie is interesting today isn’t he?’.Barry realised that Carwyn had been watching a different game! As Spiro mentions he’d noticed that Fergie, the gun FB in NZ, was slow to turn.And so in the Frst Test which the Lions unbelievably won( unbelievable to me anyway listening on my radio in a Sydney garden) Fergie was turned time & again and never played another test for the AB’s.
Worlds Biggest said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Lions Tours are just magical, one of the great sporting occasions anywhere in the World IMO. I think the Lions can pull off the upset. Hopefully McGeechan will show footage of the 1997 tour to give the players a taste of that achievement. If I am having a bet I say Springboks win 2-1. I have been to 5 Lions Tests and all were fantastic occasions. I was at Christchurch in 2005 and will always remember the Lions fans great spirit despite getting belted. That was the coldest night I have ever experienced watching a game.
JimC said | May 27th 2009 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
Spiro
Check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carwyn_James
Details differ a bit to yours; ie he played for wales, died in amsterdam?!?
Fragglerocker said | May 27th 2009 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Spiro – You might remember that in the week before the Brumbies match, some other media comments by Lions players (or maybe their ghost writers) garnered some criticism from Lions officials towards a group of players including Matt Dawson and Austin Healy. After Healy scored the final try to equalise the game agasint the Brumbies, Dawson kicked the winning goal and immediately turned towards the grandstand pulling out the chest of his jersey and pointing to the Lions logo. I don’t know if it was just a gesture towards the supporters, the continigent of Fleet Street journalists in the stand, or the Lions officials.
The Lions tour of 2001 was fantastic both for the matches and the touring Lions fans. I went to the 3rd test, the Waratahs game and the Brumbies game, while watching most of the other matches from O’Malleys Irish pub in Kings Cross, which was normally full of expat British and Irish. At the end of the Year I followed the Wallabies tour up north. Lions supporters I had met in Australia actually bought me a ticket to the Twickenham match, gave me a Lions jersey, invited me to pre and post game parties in the Western lawn behind the ground, and made sure I had a good time in most cities I went to. I was introduced to Barry John in Wales, who I ended up spending many lunches with in Cardiff. I was given a tour of Arms Park, and inside the Cardiff Rugby Club’s private rugby museum. An Irish supporter I met at one match became a close friend and I was groomsman at his wedding seven years later.
I don’t think there are many sporting events in the world that promote that sort of camaraderie between opposing supporters.
Rugby Fan said | May 27th 2009 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
John Smit spoke the other day about how a great player like Percy Montgomery will now never have the experience of playing in a Boks side that wins a Lions series. They come around too infrequently and this one is just too late in his career. Since the Lions haven’t won a series since 1997, the same is now true for a lot of players from the four nations. It’s alreday too late for Jonny Wilkinson and Brian O’Driscoll spoke recently about how three losing Lions series won’t look good on his own CV. There’s been a lot of discussion about how the last two Lions tours were disrupted by divisions within the squad but they are different in one key respect. The Lions played some good rugby in 2001 but lost to a fine Australian side. The fact the Lions were in good shape helped make the victory all the more sweet for the Wallabies because it was a hard fought series.
Lions supporters will always be in good spirits but the great disappointment about 2005 was that the team played very poorly against a superb All Blacks side. Despite having a terrible mid-week team, the 1993 Lions ran New Zealand close in the Tests but 2005 didn’t really bring the same satisfaction for the Blacks because the opposition seemed to pose less of a challenge than the individual national teams. If the Lions manage to pull off a win this time then it will certainly rank as some achievement. If they lose, though, the whole mystique of the Lions will only be maintained if they manage to wipe out that memory of 2005 by posing a decent challenge and leaving behind some memories of outstanding performances.
wannabprop said | May 27th 2009 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
James,
More gory details on ‘first lady experience’ please… Is that first love, or bedding the First Lady of the US, or first time with a ‘real lady’, or exploits in Thailand… or…?
OldManEmu said | May 27th 2009 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
OldManEmu Lions experience number one – SFS 1989. 17 years old and sitting next to a gnarled “old” cockie – he was probably only about forty, who spent the whole game telling me how much of a wog pooftah Campo was and how it was such a shame that Jimmy Grant had to go to Rugby League cos Campo cannot tackle either – and hey presto – there goes Campo passing behind the goal line and Evans scores – and by the way did I tell you how much of a wog pooftah Campo is. Thanks for the memories Mike Clifton.
OldManEmu Lions experience number two – SFS 2001. Waratahs v Lions – brother in law making debut for Tahs off the bench. Excitement all round. Fights breaking out left right and centre, Sam Harris scores a great try, Lions win a very tough and dirty game. Martin Johnson at post match function says “Thanks Tahs for taking the game up to us; we like it when it gets a bit tasty, reminds us of home” – and he was not smiling when he said it.
Greg Russell said | May 27th 2009 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
Thanks to Spiro in particular and also to everyone else for many interesting observations and recollections.
The anecdote from stuff happens very much recalls the descriptions by Jesse Fink (at this website, of course!) of Guus Hiddink at the 2006 World Cup. He says that the great soccer coach spent most of Australia’s matches staring absent-mindedly into space, watching a different game to everyone else.
For people who are interested, there’s a lot of interesting discussion of past Lions tours with an article posted yesterday entitled “Selecting the Greatest Lions XV of all time”.
In case any of you are worried, very little of that discussion is provided by me!
stuff happens said | May 27th 2009 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
Rugby Fan I agree with you about the ‘01 Lions – they were a very good team and eventually beaten by a better one in a great tour.
In contrast the ‘05 tour to NZ was a disaster mainly because Clive Woodward was allowed to do as he pleased.The entire make up ( and cost ) of the tour was outrageous with more coaches and hangers-on than sheep in a paddock.Many of the test team selections were terrible as Woodward was determined to ‘reward’ his English RWC players some of whom were injured (eg Jonny) but still played and others retired ( eg Neil Back, Will Greenwood).Not surprisingly better and in form players were completely disillusioned.
This LIons tour needs to return to the ethos and cameraderie of old and with Geech and Gerald Davies in charge in SA let’s hope this will be a great tour whoever wins the test series.
matt said | May 27th 2009 @ 6:19pm | Report comment
I will always remember the Lions game against the Wallabies in Brisbane 2001 for Joe Roff’s brilliance, and the incredible havoc the Lions no 8 Scott Quinnell, wreaked.
brad said | May 27th 2009 @ 6:30pm | Report comment
As far as factionalism is concerned this Lions team has all the positives to counter the negatives of previous tours. McGeechan is scotish but there are only 2 Scots in the side so he is pretty independent unlike sir Clive. He was a succesful lion himself, unlike Henry and this tour is much shorter than previous tours so less chance of factions developing. The Irish and Welsh have both tasted succes recently and will have a winning mentatlity. That said though rugby is unlike football in that the underdog very seldom has his day in the sun. I hope its close though for the spectacle at least.
Fred said | May 27th 2009 @ 8:13pm | Report comment
I’d love to know where you get the Bulls being 20 points the better side. I spend a lot of time in the Southern hemisphere and usually wind up going to Super 14 games out of respect for my hosts.
Like most from the Northern hemisphere I dislike the lack of contest at the breakdown and reckon it is one of the reasons why you see a lot of cricket scores. The bulls would not put 20 points on Leinster if they played in the Heineken cup and do you honestly reckon that Leinster with that backline would not be able to cut loose in the super 14? I quite like the idea of the south african teams eventually joining up with the Northern Hemisphere. The style of rugby would suit them instead of pandering to bolster John O’Neill’s attempts to keep rugby league at bay with a contrived competition like super14.
Lastly it’s obvious that the supporters do not buy into it. I was at the first match in Suncorp this year between the Reds and Cheetahs. The atmosphere was as dull as dishwater. You will never have days like we had in Croke Park three weeks ago, or Edinburgh last Saturday. Somehow I can’t see the Waratahs packing out the Olympic Stadium for a Super 14 final. It just doesn’t mean as much. Rocky Elsom has been saying as much himself the past few days.
Rugby Fan said | May 27th 2009 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
Woodward is rightly taking fire from all sides for his management of the 2005 tour but I was interested to see Gareth Thomas saying that he might not have been wrong to take a large squad to New Zealand because of the high number of injuries that can occur. Thomas himself was probably thinking of the fact the he ended up captaining the side from centre alongside Will Greenwood in the final test because BOD, Shanklin, Henson and Wilkinson were all injured while D’Arcy had ruled himself out.
So much went wrong on and off the pitch in 2005 that it’s difficult to know whether any of Woodward’s innovations were a good idea. McGeechan has surely done the right thing in ditching them to see if he can try to rediscover the pride. Woodward recently said he has few regrets about the way he managed the team and says that his back line selection for the first Test of Peel, Jones, Wilkinson, BOD, Thomas, Lewsey and Robinson still looks “tasty” when he sees it on paper today. He might be right but we’ll never know because he didn’t have the wit to give them a game together before sending them out at Jade Stadium and I think he knows that was a big mistake. That game has so many bad memories for Lions fans. Even outside the controversial tackle and the other injuries, I still remember the Lions lineout being an utter shambles which made you wonder what the hell all those coaches had been doing.
Most people remember Ryan Jones having a decent tour but I also remember Shane Horgan doing as much as he could for a losing cause so it was good to see him get some glory with the recent Leinster Heineken Cup win. Here’s hoping that more players stand up like that in 2009. And I don’t mean in the way that Spiro fears when he described captain Paul O’Connell in an earlier piece as “a confrontational player who is not averse to belting the opposition or stomping them when his blood is up (which is most of the time).” Mind you, those Bulls did a great job against the Crusaders and it’s hard to disagree with Spiro’s view that they looked “20-points better than Leinster”.
Knives Out said | May 27th 2009 @ 8:37pm | Report comment
Mind you, those Bulls did a great job against the Crusaders and it’s hard to disagree with Spiro’s view that they looked “20-points better than Leinster”.
Apples and pears, Rugby Fan. One game was a final, the other a semi-final. Leinster and Leicester are both experienced knock-out competitors, the young and inexperienced (a fact that has largely been ignored) Crusaders are not. Further, the game was played in SA which means a day less travelling for the Crusaders. The odds were stacked in the favour of the Bulls and still they conceded heavily as they have done for the last half of the season. To that extent I agree with Fred. It’s highly unlikely that some of the best backs in Europe would not score heavily against the Bulls. A more appropriate and intelligent comparison might have been the HC QF Munster demolition of the Ospreys – a home again in which one side showed multi-dimensional ability. What if the Super final is low scoring and boring? What does Mr. Zavos conclude then? Please, eh?!
Katipo said | May 27th 2009 @ 8:44pm | Report comment
Yes, really looking forward to the Lions tour too. I think the Boks will be too good.
Spiro, I have fond memories of Springbok French and Wallaby tours of NZ too. Disappointing that the Lions tour is the only surviving remnant.
Hemjay & David, not sure about a sanzar lions team (what would be there challenge or ‘test’?) but the B&I Lions could have a go at a SANZAR grand slam. Play three tests, one against each country. How about that?
I doubt any national team (or combined team) in the world would be capable of achieving a SANZAR grand slam but it would be something to aspire too that’s for sure.
Ben J said | May 27th 2009 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
Yes they can roar and I expect a few surprises along the way. But the Lions would be foolish to take the Royal xv lightly, they have 11 players that defeated the Blue Bulls in the Vodacom Cup FINAL 2 weeks ago and their halfback pairing have Super 14 experience this year and I saw a Springbok Sevens player there as well. No club side this. I do not however foresee a fight as this is the professional era and players now understand the financial implications of a fisticuffs.
South Africa was made for Lions tours, all this out of Africa stuff is beautiful and we Saffas can’t wait for kickoff. Welcome Lions!
James Mortimer said | May 28th 2009 @ 12:14am | Report comment
wannabprop,
First lady experience is nothing to do with any US statewoman, rather than with a lass who I genuinely thought was a lady…..
Until later in the evening.
But even that insane experience did not match the thrill of seeing so many Lions jumpers, many of who crooned at me as I proudly strutted down the street in a skin tight All Black jumper.
I wasn’t going to have an ale tonight, but now I must.
James Mortimer said | May 28th 2009 @ 12:15am | Report comment
Personally,
I think Lions will take first test.
So much emotion and feeling in my experience is often to great to overcome, no matter how strong the rugby team.
But, despite my mixed opinions of De Villiers as a coach, there is far too much class in the Boks for them to go down.
Even second test.
Lions thumped in the third.
James Mortimer said | May 28th 2009 @ 12:19am | Report comment
Rugby fan,
I believe in theory Woodward was right.
But there was a really buzz around the All Blacks camp following their destruction of France in Paris but 6 months earlier.
Would love to get the inside word on what was said to the team prior (and, based on my position, I think I might try to dig deeper on that), but me thinks that Umaga and Henry would have stressed that a strong Lions tour by NZ would catapult them to bigger things.
It ended up to be very true, but unfortunately, the momentum couldn’t carry through to 2007.
Dublin Dave said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:17am | Report comment
One of the key factors determining the success or otherwise of the tour will be how well players who were picked with the Wednesday team in mind step up to the plate when they are needed. In most of the successful Lions tours, people who might not have been first choice at the start of the tour played vital roles.
Back in 1971, the two first choice props were Sandy Carmichael of Scotland and Ray McLoughlin of Ireland. The latter was also effectively the forwards coach as Carwyn James, for all his talents, had been a fly half and was the first to admit that his knowledge of the dark arts of scrummaging was less than first rate.
Neither first choice prop made it as far as the first test; the notorious game against Canterbury saw to that. So up stepped Ian “Mighty Mouse” McLauchlan and Sean Lynch to fill the gap. They did so with such effect that the Lions won a test series for the only time in New Zealand.
Also making an impact on that tour were two abrasive young forwards Gordon Brown from Scotland and Derek Quinnell from Wales. Quinnell had not been capped when he went on tour but he made the test team as part of a Lions plan to choke off the main attacking threat from the All Blacks, namely the powerful scrum half Sid Going who could run through a brick wall but couldn’t pass water.
Gordon Brown, who would go on to be a Lions and Scotland legend, was selected for the last two tests in place of the veteran Welshman Delme Thomas, much to the initial annoyance of his second row partner Willie John McBride. But Brown would convince him of his worth pretty quickly.
In South Africa in 1974 along with some of the all time greats playing pretty close to their peak, such as .Edwards, Bennett, JPR and JJ Williams, Mervyn Davies, McBride, Cotton, Slattery, McLauchlan and Brown (now with their reputations cemented) and Uttley, were others of less certain fame. How many people would put Billy Steele and Dick Milliken in their greatest all time Lions teams? In fact, who would put them in their greatest all time Scottish or Irish teams? Not many I suspect. Yet they won six test caps between them (all victories) and were an essential part of the backline.
Milliken’s partner in the centre was an industrious and astute Scot called McGeechan. Neither might have been first choice at the start of the tour. Rather the places might have been earmarked for the lighting quick Geoff Evans of England who had destroyed Wales with his pace at Twickenham that season or the rather more solid Roy Bergiers of Wales, who despite slipping up that season were still the dominant team among the home nations.
In 1989 in Australia the Lions had to come back from a bad loss in the first test to win the series, something they have never done before or since. They changed the team significantly bringing in many England players who would form the nucleus of the successful English side of the early 1990s. Rob Andrew, who was probably third choice fly half at the outset, played a pivotal role and so did a young centre called Guscott whose sole test appearance to then had been on England’s tour of Romania.
In too came Paul Ackford, a policeman who had a late vocation to top class rugby and would quickly become world class, and Mike Teague in the back row, who many thought was lucky to be on the tour in the first place. They demolished the Australian pack and won the series.
In 1997 in South Africa the Lions were something of an unknown quantity. Or at least the players who won the tests were. The opening up of the game allowed many who had gone to league such as Alan Tait and Scott Gibbs to tour as well as those who had never played top class union at all like John Bentley.
They had trouble in the pack as well with injuries to first choice players like Doddie Weir and Jason Leonard. So in came Jeremy Davidson and Paul Wallace, both from what was then the crappiest team in the championship, Ireland, and played out of their skins.
Davidson would be selected by his team mates as the player of the Test series. A tall rangy second row he benefited greatly from the change in the laws which legitimised “lifting” in the lineouts. As indeed did his lifters. Lighter than the average lock he was much easier to chuck into the air, and the Lions did to such effect that his opposite number Mark Andrews, who thought he was the best number 4 jumper in the world, was comprehensively cleaned out.
The Springboks might have concluded logically that given the Lions’ hooker Keith Wood was not the most accurate thrower in and that the Lions’ captain Martin Johnson was easily the best jumper at two in the world that all Lions ball would go to the front of the lineout. Instead it went to Davidson who caught everything two handed and set up driving mauls to such good effect the Boks went reeling. Neil Jenkins kicked the goals and the rest was history.
So when looking for signs pointing to a Lions victory, don’t look at the established stars like O’Driscoll, O’Connell, Williams (both of them) Vickery et all. You expect a certain performance from those guys. It will be the performances of some of the lesser guys who will make the difference.
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:31am | Report comment
Nice one, Dave. Lots of little colourful detail in that. Thanks.
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:32am | Report comment
Very good, Dave. Thanks.
N.B. Wasn’t Andrew a late call-up during the 1989 tour?
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 2:38am | Report comment
Dave, extending your theme on the value of the underdog, 2005 saw some excellent and consistent performances from Ryan Jones, Simon Easterby and as Rugby Fan notes, Shane Horgan.
jools-usa said | May 28th 2009 @ 4:27am | Report comment
Ah Spiro,
‘They say that “living well is the best revenge” and Harrison got his that last OZ/Lions match.
Being much maligned & called a “plod” was enough to have him reach down for that extra 6 inches of leap & spoil
the Lions rubber match. How sweet that was!
Jools-USA
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 4:42am | Report comment
Is that the same Justin Plank Harrison who hightailed it recently from Bath back home to Oz, and abandoned his club mates, the Barbarians, and, promptly announced his retirement from rugby as an inquiry into less than appropriate behaviour by players got underway at his club?
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 4:53am | Report comment
I think the fact that Scott Johnson and the Wallaby coaches inadvertently cracked the Lions lineout calls may have had more to do with the famous lineout steal, more than any genius and playing integrity on the part of Harrison. I have to say, he was a personal favourite of mine until his behaviour really went beyond the pale.
jools-usa said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:08am | Report comment
Yep, same Justin Harrison.
Guess beating the arrogant LIons went to his head
Jools-USA
Knives Out said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:16am | Report comment
Possibly. Unfortunate that his ’success’ managed to manifest itself in overt racism, violence and class A drug addiction.
That’s a pretty heavy chip you’e got there, Jools. Why not get rid of it and take a load off?
Rugby Fan said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:31am | Report comment
Dublin Dave nicely points up the way that good players in under-performing national teams can thrive when they are given a big challenge and good players around them. McGeechan has been especially good at finding those qualities over the years. On that basis, you might have expected him to chance his arm with some more Scots but he only went for two in the squad originally (now up to four). I get the impression he thinks the Welsh players will feel they have underperformed recently and I wouldn’t be surprised if he manages to get Powell, Williams. Hook and Phillips back to their best with the help of the Wales management boys who know them well. Geech probably wasn’t convinced by England’s late run and it’s not difficult to think his original idea of a starting XV might not even have included a single English player. That’s no bad thing because it’s good for the squad if there are so many who believe they won’t get picked unless they play their way into the team.
On a side note, as an England supporter, I have mixed feelings about the way McGeechan used the England players to beat the Wallabies in 1989. In 1987, England were a mess. For some years, Rob Andrew had been selected as fly-half even when he had some nightmare games. Finally, he was out of favour after missing some easy goal kicks which cost England heavily in the Five Nations. However, his great rival, Stuart Barnes, had earlier thrown his toys out of the pram and refused to sit on the bench while Andrew was being picked ahead of him, and so he was ignored as a replacement. The 1987 World Cup team featured neither and the resulting mess ushered in the Carling era. England’s real revival began in 1988, in particular with a festival of tries in a 28-19 win against Australia at Twickenham. We seemed to have given up the forward-based kicking game and finally trusted our backs to do the job.
However, England weren’t the top dogs by any measure when the 1989 Lions tour came around and it was expected that The Welsh & Scots would dominate. As it turned out, McGeechan promoted the English boys from the midweek squad and they loved playing with the likes of Calder, Jones, Sole, Evans, the Hastings brothers and Dai Young. McGeechan added to the English revival by using those English players in the series win but, crucially, he also rehabilitated Rob Andrew. At first, England swept all before them in the 1990 Five Nations with a marvellous mix of forward and back play which had always seemed the preserve of the other home nations. Andrew was under orders to pass the ball to Carling, Guscott, Underwood et al and not kick it away as he had been doing for seasons. But what McGeechan giveth, McGeechan taketh away and it was his Scottish team which beat England in the grand slam decider and left them traumatized for years to come. Geech knew what made the English boys tick and he knew how to coach a side to beat them. Consequently, England retreated into their shell and reverted to ten man “winning” rugby – which Geech had shown them how to do in Australia with Andrew – rather than the attractive play that seemed to be within their capabilities. No wonder Campese messed with their minds with the “boring” tag during the 1991 World Cup.
So damn McGeechan for screwing up England for years by getting them to fall back on their forwards and Andrew’s kicking game. That’s slightly tongue in cheek of course. Even if there’s a grain of truth, the man would deserve forgiveness for all he’s done in the cause of the Lions. Not to mention the small matter of helping England to a World Cup by picking Martin Johnston as Lions captain in 1997.
pothale said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:56am | Report comment
Interesting take, Rugby Fan. There’s great stuff coming out of people today. Was it something ye all had in your breakfast this morning?
stuff happens said | May 28th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Thanks Dublin Dave & others for the memories. Feel I should mention MIke Gibson on the ‘71 tour , to this day the best all round midfield player I have seen.Often forgotten in despatches.
The first twenty minutes or so of the 3rd Test in Wellington remains one of the Lions greatest achievements. Gerald Davies , now the manager in SA, scored one amazing try (Barry John the other).
Good luck to Geech ;in the six games in three weeks before the 1st Test it will fascinating to see who ’stand up’.
fred said | May 28th 2009 @ 5:55pm | Report comment
SPIRO,not all first girlfriends are fondly remembered sometimes its the second ones that are the crackers. and i believe the 1959 lions fit into this category .western bank perspective.
Dublin Dave said | May 28th 2009 @ 6:33pm | Report comment
Stuff Happens
Mike Gibson forgotten in despatches???? Not round these parts.
I have learned from this forum that there is a generation of Aussies who think that Mike Gibson is some wizened old Australian sports reporter. But here in God’s own country we know who the real Mike Gibson is.
Actually there were two. Another Michael Gibson won a few caps at number 8 for Ireland in the 1970s and 1980s. He might even have played with the legendary one. But there’s only one Cameron Michael Henderson Gibson.
So far as we know.