By LeftArmSpinner -
July 2nd 2009 @ 12:42am
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Bye bye, Lote, bye bye!
Lote Tuqiri has been sacked for disciplinary reasons after his latest indiscretion, the last in a long list of issues. It’s the culmination of a player with the potential for behavioral problems combined with being out of touch with a game that’s left him behind.
It is worth revisiting the more recent comments to confirm that this was a train wreck in front of our eyes. I have nothing new to say than I have already said in previous Roar articles, but these comments have a new meaning in the light of Tuqiri’s sacking and can kick off a new discussion.
Lets examine the recent posts in my recent Roar article about the Wallabies’ body language: “Tuqiri has problems in his mind. Last Saturday, with just the diminutive Gordon 15, Dave Harvey, to beat, he failed. Didn’t even get close. It’s all a bit sad really.”
Further, in another Roar article: “Mitchell can get to the try line, as can AAC, as can Hynes and as can Ioane and Turner. Lote wont back himself to finish a try with pace and determination. Frankly, take his inability to remove the weaknesses from his game that have been evident for at least four seasons, specifically:
* Cross field running,
* not backing himself on the outside of an opponent
* not drawing and passing
* not developing kicking skills
* not becoming able to play in other positions (such as Fullback and 13)
* frequent failure to recycle the ball
These are serious weaknesses that were hidden by a big salary and reputation, but compounded by timid coaches. Compare his body shape to when he first arrived in rugby. He is completely muscle bound.”
This closes the page on the purchasing of league stars with a view to convert them into rugby players when they don’t really want to. The jury is still out on Tahu, but the pressure is building on him as time goes on.
Barnes, Elsom and Cross are different because they were not new to rugby.
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(93)
Peter K said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:56am | Report comment
I wonder what the facts are as opposed to speculation.
Fact – Tuqiri is underperforming.
Fact Tuqiri is very very highly paid.
Fact – ARU is struggling financially.
Fact – Tuqiri has been in trouble before, and is on a final warning.
Speculation – ARU waited and prayed Tuqiri made ANY infraction, minor or trivial would do.
Then sack him.
They need to save the money on his contract.
I bet Tuqiri will win a LOT of money in the ensuing law case though.
zzzz said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:01am | Report comment
Lote who?
Cutter said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:05am | Report comment
The Lote contract money has to be spent on other player salaries so its not a saving in that sense.
Peter K said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:53am | Report comment
No it does not have to be spent on other players. If it is spent on salaries they would much use it to keep a top player from going O/S. Or they need the money to top up salaies of up and coming players like JoC.
Sharminator said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:53am | Report comment
It does have to be spent on players … the bargaining agreement between the ARU and players union specifies the percentage of cash from tv deals that goes to the players and that is the money the ARU uses for player salaries. The specifics, i.e. how much each player gets, are what the ARU decides on a case by case basis.
Had Enough of Oz Sport said | July 2nd 2009 @ 6:06am | Report comment
The Lote deal represented everything that was wrong with rugby – the resigning showed that the ARU was 15 times dumber than anyone could have thought.
Mike said | July 2nd 2009 @ 7:37am | Report comment
The ARU may have been very stupid – we will see.
Multiple infractions of a code of conduct are not automatically cause for terminating a contract – it never was that simple, and the situation is even more in flux after the latest statutory changes. Even if there is a specific clause to that effect in the contract, it still doesn’t guarantee that a court will find the ARU was justified.
Of course I don’t know what the precise facts used to justify his sacking were, but if its just another alcohol problem, then the ARU might be about to find out that the standards of newspapers or public commentators are not the same standards used by industrial courts.
If Lote gets up in his legal action, then this will become a very expensive exercise for the ARU:
Firstly, its not only the size of his contract, but the potential for future success and sponsorship. His lawyers will be able to point to public remarks by Robbie Deans, Tim Horan (and even David Campese – go figure!) as indicating that he had a major chance of continuing Wallabies selection. They will dismiss his recent poor form as the psychological result of ARU investigations and threats to sack him, and direct the court’s attention to his form in 2003, or more recently in Super 14, as a guide to his potential.
Then, his lawyers will argue that this would have led to large sponsorship deals. So the damages will be a lot more than the balance of Lote’s $5 Million contract.
Then there are legal costs – in every jurisdiction where this is likely to be played out, costs will follow the event. That means that if Lote gets up, the ARU will pay a significant proportion of his legal costs, as well as their own. Want to bet that his lawyers will not be cheap….?
Of course, the case can always be settled out of court – most litigation is. But the sticking point will be whether Lote comes back. The criticism of Tuqiri by many union commentators has been so vicious that it may have hardened his resolve to accept nothing less than reinstatement. But the ARU can’t accept that either, not unless the people who made the decision to sack Tuqiri resign. At least the lawyers will make money …
Crosscoder said | July 2nd 2009 @ 7:44am | Report comment
The ARU has been trimming costs in various departments at head office.When I read of Lote’s sacking the words”opportunity” and “cost trimming’ immediately spring to mind.It happens elsewhere.
Got to get back some of the monies wasted on the ARC comp.
cookie said | July 2nd 2009 @ 7:52am | Report comment
Lote will sue the ARU and win. The ARU are a bunch of morons. Given workplace laws these days, it’s near impossible to sack a useless employee regardless of what they do or don’t do, which is a bit moronic but that’s the way it is.
Even if Lote lost, the legal costs will be astronomical. Lawyers get paid way to much for reading the rule book!
The Fact is that Lote has never really done much on the paddock even at his best, but he did draw a lot of media attention. Whilst the $1m a season is ridiculous, it would be a fair bet that the 1m was not just for his sporting ability.
I’ve said for 4 + years that there are better players running around in club rugby who’d do a better job for free.
If memory serves me correctly wasn’t lote a reason why stantiforth left the waratahs?
Does this put pressure on the Waratahs to find a new winger?
Signing Barnes would be great but i suspect this is just another media beatup or the tahs admin trying to look like there doing something?
The Mole said | July 2nd 2009 @ 7:55am | Report comment
Are they going to sack Giteau for leading the young guys astray with the most recent (very serious) rumours?
Bay35Pablo said | July 2nd 2009 @ 8:29am | Report comment
Mike, would this be an employment dispute or a contract dispute? We are getting into stuff well outside your usual shop assistant here.
I seem to recall some of his $1m contract was sponsorship and third party payments, so not all that money will necessarily go back in the player pot or be available to the ARU.
As far as future Wallabies picks – no guarantees. Future sponsorship? I think he had just about maxed that out.
This will not help the morale or loyalty of the rest of the players. it seemed he was well liked, and others have behaved just as badly.
So let’s review the legauies who came over for coin:
Rogers- Gone.
Sailor – Gone.
Tuqiri – Going.
I’ll back tahu because he seems to have come for the challenge not the coin.
reds fan said | July 2nd 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
C’mon Mole… fill us in. What is this rumour??
Brett McKay said | July 2nd 2009 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Pablo, the ARU are certainly calling it an employment dispute, judging by their lightly-worded statement last night:
“The employment contract of Lote Tuqiri has been terminated effective today. ARU has treated this issue as a standard employment matter.
“The ARU will not make any further comment on the matter as it may be the subject of legal proceedings.”
Josh said | July 2nd 2009 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Unreal, they sack the player who get’s people through the gates, they had 47,000 to a test match, rugby is boring, 1 try in 80 mins, nobody cares about it, league gets a sell out to origin, tell me which is the far better game,
Hoy said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Why do gate takings matter here? It is about a player who has supposedly buggered up according to the terms of his contract.
Forget that Lote was never that great at Rugby. If he breached his contract, why should they keep him after the chances he has had. I am fairly sure that after the thing with Matt Dunning, he was on a last warning. Now I don’t know what has happened here, but they surely wouldn’t sack him without looking at consequences.
Josh by your statement, if the Taliban or Jack the Ripper pulled crowds, they should play? People pullers don’t always win games.
MikeN said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:15am | Report comment
The skill level in the origin game did not warrant a sell out. The skill level in the Wallabies match deserved more. The number of tries should not be the gauge on how good a game is.
Lote has been playing so poorly the last couple of seasons that I do not see why anyone would bother even turning on their TV to watch him. He has not run hard and straight of a couple of years. Any half decent rugby player can tackle a guy who has stopped or is ruinning across field.
If he has once again gone outside player protocols, then bye bye Lote. He will land on his feet somewhere else, so he is OK, just a hit to his ego.
Hoy said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:35am | Report comment
He was signed to this mammoth contract on the back of not scoring a try for a year. How does that make sense? The signing originally was about the ARU getting one up on NRL. I think it was madness, however I am not a fan of Lote anyway.
Lots of things don’t add up with Lote.
Why did they sign him then to a long term deal for so much, when he was in a massive form slump that lasted over 12 months before the signing?
Why did they take him on the tour last year to Europe when he only played the Bar Bar’s game?
Why was he left out this year, if for no other reason than Robbie Deans bows to no man (no matter what his salary), and recognises talent in other wingers that far outweighs any talent Lote has.
Rickety Knees said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
I hope that this now shuts the door on buying high profile League players. Wisdom in hindsight would ask “what return on investment have the Rogers, Sailors and Tuqiri’s provided Australian Rugby. I don’t know what the sum of their contracts are worth but I guess it would be $10M+ – would that money not have been better spent on developing a national club competition?
stillmissit said | July 2nd 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
The other part to this is the non selection of Tahu, both he and Lote have been playing club rugby. Now I think Tahu is a fine man but I did think it was strange that both of them were not wanted particularly as Tahu was improving markedly.
Just another conspiracy theory but there are no rumours about this sacking at all and I thought something would be out this morning.
Hope Lote is gone and loses the legal battle as well. Maybe this final nail in the old chestnut ‘NRL players will kill it in rugby’ is dead. They are fundamentally different games, you need to be a young leaguey to make the transition or have played earlier in your career.
Lote’s huge salary renegotiation is the responsibility of Gary Flowers and NSW rugby, stupidly supported by John Connolly and others.
Worlds Biggest said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Josh – the big crowd ( not a sell out ) at Origin got to see probably the worst half of Origin football ever by NSW, it was quality stuff. Dropped balls, soft or non existent defence, wayward passing etc.. And you reckon League is the better game ??. Sure the Wallabies v France game overall wasn’t a great spectacle but the skill level, defence and physicality was just far superior to what NSW served up a few days earlier.
LeftArmSpinner said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
gentlemen,
No one even commented on my premise: the evidence of Tuqiri’s demise was there for all to see for ages.
greypower said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Yes, LeftArmSpinner, the ARU just had to find a way to do it. The spectacle of Rugby’s highest player turning out for club rugby and looking very ordinary made this old supporter very angry. The no.14 for West Harbour outshone Tuqiri in every way against Gordon. I just hope the ARU haven’t bungled their move, as I would hate to see them pay out more cash for someone who can’t play at the top level. Perhaps they could use some of the money saved to top up Ioane’s contract with a decent offer.
Regards crowds, there are only 3 origin games a year, and they are the only big event on the league calendar, held in 3 different cities, plus the final. Maybe playing the kiwis now that they can beat us (at league) will bring a good crowd, Rugby has several tests a year in Australia, the numbers for the French were good considering there are the tri nation games to attend, not to mention super 14. We poor old Rugby followers only have a certain amount of cash to splash on tickets!!
Bay35Pablo said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Greypower, I was thinking the same thing. SOO didn’t sell out Homebush, but they were beating their chests. try staging half a dozen of those games every year and see what your average crowd is. compare apples with apples. I got a free ticket and it was bad value for money the way NSW played.
Some Roarers have expressed surprise at the ARU bashing implicit or explicit in the posts. I expect this is because many of us are so sick and tired of them and the various unions stuffing up. Although we aren’t sure what is going on, we all get the lump in the stomach of waiting for it to all go wrong. That’s why transparency would be preferable, at least we would better understand whether they are in the right or not. JON is more likely to have gotten it right than most, but we are all of little faith nowadays.
As for the constant references to the IRC and employment contract, I am not an IR lawyer but my recollection is there is a threshold of about $100-150K annual salary above which most if not all of the IR and unfair dismissal laws don’t apply. Given Lote’s salary, I don’t expect this will be anything more than a contract dispute, and the only “unfair dismissal” principles you’ll see are from Danny Weidler acting as mouthpiece for Lote in the Sun Herald.
Even looser said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:41am | Report comment
What first struck me was the seemingly gutless way the ARU sacked him via an emai (if news reports are accurate that is).
What ever happened to the boss calling you into the office, telling you the facts and sending you on your bike? No balls!
And another thing. If the ARU were dumb as dog shit in signing him and then even dumber in resigning him, what makes us all think that the ARU is somehow wonderfully smart all of a sudden? This could drag out, be costly, be ugly and be a huge distraction from the main objective ie improving Rugby in Australia.
reds fan said | July 2nd 2009 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Grey power, Kanga’s v NZ in May drew 37,152 at Lang Park. Not exactly shooting the lights out are they?
AndyS said | July 2nd 2009 @ 11:41am | Report comment
If we are going to play the League v Union game, at least do a like-for-like comparison…SoO vs Bledisloe.
Arky said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Drop the conspiracy nonsense. Lote was clearly not performing. And he was on his final warnings. He should know that if you take the big cheque you will by default have a target on your back which means you must behave in an exempalry fashion. He had his warnings and now he must move on.
lote might put up a legal fight which will likely result in no more than a private settlement somewhere between where he is and where he might have been i.e the usual cost of exiting any highly paid and remunerated employee. Is his manager advising him to pursue more (for his own pockets at the end of the day) or is he doing just becasue he feels jilted. Who knows? Who cares frankly.
JON is sending a very clear message here – that should have been sent a long time ago. This is a professional game. Remuneration comes with standards of behaviour and participation. Shape up or ship out.
What a surprise that this news breaks on the same day the SMH runs an article on the League Magazine polls that suggests the overwhelming majority of their games professionals are embarassed by their profession and the nonsencse and misbehaviour that goes on. That is – clean it up for all or you will disenfranchise some of your key constituency.
Well JON – about time.
And on a performance note – the game has left Lote behind.
Campbell Watts said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Mike,
You sound like a lawyer – and there’s too many of you in this world already.
Wouldn’t it be a nice world if you could just say to someone “Lote you’re on your last chance – stuff up again and you’re gone” and lawyers wouldn’t then get involed and incessantly debate semantics??
Maybe I’m an idealist but lawyers to me just make problems worse – they don’t solve them.
Nobody wins when lawyers get involved – except the lawyers!
Bay35Pablo said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
Campbell, same with those doctors. If they didn’t get involved, no one would get sick. And those accountants. Wouldn’t have to pay tax if it wasn’t for them ….
First thing anyone does when they get in trouble is go to a lawyer. Why? Because they want to know what to do. If it was easy, no one would need them.
Perhaps Lote and JON can play rock, paper scissors to sort it out. Sound fair?
Jameswm said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Campbell
That is exactly what was said to Lote. And he did stuff up, and he is gone. Lote is the one who is bringing lawyers into it.
Now let me ask this…
Who thinks the ARU came to this decision without getting a legal opinion on it first?
Josh said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
The old League Vs Union debate, League is far tougher, entertaining game by far, and if I recall who was used as advertisement for the Barbarians game? Big Dell, enough said, no one knows any Wallabies players apart from Giteau, Mortlock and Smith, league any day of the week
Tarpo said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
jJameswm,
precisely, JON would have gone over, under, through all the issues before pulling the trigger.
It is a shame it has come to this, I’m sure we would all have preferred to have Lote blitzing it on the field, instead of off the field!
Campbell Watts said | July 2nd 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Bay35,
I did say “maybe I’m an idealist”
Did I bag Doctors or accountants??? No – because they provide a great service to the general public that aids the society as a whole. Don’t put words in my mouth.
Im my mind lawyers are just parasites that make a bad situation worse by making us all broke!
Why should Lote have any grounds to sue if he’s been put on final notice and has stuffed up again??? Because lawyers have mad the water sooooo muddy nobody can see the surface anymore!
Tarpo said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:01pm | Report comment
Josh,
RL is just two backlines running at each other!
Bay35Pablo said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Campbell, as long as the ARU has a clause in lote’s contract that says “We can shaft you at will” they’ll be fine. Otherwise, he’s entirely able to get advice on whether the ARU has done the right thing by him under the contract, or not.
This is the point about the ARU not giving the reason why. Without that transparency the public can only speculate as to who is right and wrong. Not good for anyone, or rugby.
reds fan said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
Why do moronic league supporters continue butting into converstaions they know nothing about? Isn’t there a thread on “What is the appropriate ratio of NRL players to groupies in the same bed?” that you can go contribute to?
Campbell Watts said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Ah but aren’t we all frothing to know why he’s been axed!!
reds fan said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
JON is a shrewd operator. He would have gotten legal advice. And now he has said that Lote knows why he got sacked, and its up to him if he wants to tell the public. I mean what a tactic! Set the media hounds on Lote. He’s a nasty piece of work that JON. Imagine Lote having to confess on camera. Not a good look. Lote wont be talking to any media anytime soon.
AndyS said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
What I find interesting is that the ARU basically said right from the first announcement that they wouldn’t comment with legal action pending. So to me, that says that a) Lote immediately replied to the dismissal with a “see you in court”, and b) the ARU is comfortable with the reason coming out, even with Lote’s team able to spin it – implies the cause is fairly cast-iron, but c) don’t want to give Lote’s legal team the leverage of pointing at the ARU and claiming that releasing the reason was prejudicial etc etc.
True Tah said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Campbell
JON is a lawyer anyway and he’s one canny administrator, there is no way he would sack Lote unless the ARU (and himself) were in a bloody strong position.
Josh – Dell going to union was the best thing that ever happened to him, he wouldn’t be getting anywhere near the exposure he does if he had stayed in league.
Personally I think toughness is irrelevant when discussing sports, soldiers, cops, firemen and ambulance officers have far tougher professions than any professional sportsmen ever can.
reds fan said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Spot on AndyS. I reckon the ARU are feeling pretty sure they had good cause.
NickF said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
It is also interesting to note that the sacking happened one day after the 30th June cutoff for contracts to be finialised to play in the NRL in 2009. Was this intentional?
AndyS said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
The timing seems like conspiracy stuff to me though. If they held off, the question would have to be why – what would be in it for the ARU? It limits Lote’s other options, so increases his motivation to litigate, so why would they intentionally do that?
Mike said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
“Who thinks the ARU came to this decision without getting a legal opinion on it first?” I would have thought its pretty obvious that both the ARU and Tuqiri have been talking to their lawyers for several weeks.
“Im my mind lawyers are just parasites that make a bad situation worse by making us all broke!”. Oh dear, that cut to the bone.
You could try, “First, let’s kill the lawyers”, but he was hung drawn and quartered before the end of the play.
Or, “Woe unto you lawyers and pharisees”, but he ended up nailed to a cross.
The big question in my mind is whether Lote is going to go for reinstatement. If he does, we will know very quickly (within days, I would think). Otherwise its just damages.
Campbell Watts said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
Andy I suspect they have been waiting for their investigation to be completed and have sacked him as soon as they got the final info from the investigation.
The timing is pure coincidence – they said last week they were investigating some “going-ons” – this food fight caper was a bit of a smoke screne for the more serious investigation into Lote I suspect.
Campbell Watts said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
Perhaps I was a lillte harsh Mike!
I reckon he’d go for damages only – you think he’d want to play again for an organisation that just sent him back to club rugby AND ripped up his contract?
Worlds Biggest said | July 2nd 2009 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
Josh – again another mindless comment, your better off sticking to comments on League only as your on the wrong forum here. Otherwise watch last weekends Lions v Springboks Test match if you want toughness and entertainment and come back to us.
Jolly Jupes said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
AndyS – they probably held off to avoid a media storm during the test series – the gates were poor anyway and this might have been deemed to be negative – there is now a nice three week break – It will probably help Lote if there is a damages claim as they have dragged it out and perhaps it influenced selection as everyone expected that he would have played against Italy or france – Deans said they would give everyone a go but they did not so it might have been simmering for a few weeks
TommyM said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Pablo- are you suggesting that people only get sick because doctors make them sick??
Now THERE’S a conspiracy theory!!
Bay35Pablo said | July 2nd 2009 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
TommyM, I am placing my tongue firmly in my cheek ……
JC said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
Jonas
Did you just say ‘Unreal’. OK, you are obviously about 9 years old so I’ll go easy on you. Go post in the Jonas Brothers fan forum or somewhere else your opinion is valued…
sheek said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
Back in 2002-03 I supported the ARU push to sign Sailor, Rogers & Tuqiri. The current outside backs at the time just didn’t appear to be on the money. Either too old & underperforming, or too green & underperforming.
This was vindicated with the three ex-leagueies occupying the back 3 positions in the RWC final against England.
However, fast forward to 2009, & you can argue whether it was really worth it in the end. Sometimes it takes several years to see the sense, or waste, of a straegic decision.
The ARU had a go, now it needs to focus elsewhere – like pouring money in junior rugby. It’ll take longer to see the benefits of the champions coming through, but it’ll be worth it. At least we can only hope so.
In any case, investing in the youth of your sport is not only wise, but necessary, for continual rebirthing.
sheek said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
Make that the sense, or waste, of a STRATEGIC decision!
Mike said | July 2nd 2009 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
OMG, I actually agree with Sheek, that’s a scary thought.
I expect we will continue to see League players making the switch to Union, at various stages of their career. Also, as the example of Du Plessis shows, the days of Union players switching to League are not over either. There are a lot of fans out there in the world, happy to watch rugby footballers, whichever code they came from and whichever code they are playing now.
bennalong said | July 2nd 2009 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
So this is professionalism. No honour, no pride, no respect. And half you blokes a part of it.
All we know is that the ARU sacks a highly promoted (by them) player with a huge number of fans without giving a reason. The player concerned has not been performing but has been on the end of a backline that was abysmally coached !
So far Lote’s guilty of bugger all. In fact he’s been praised by Deans for his efforts at training despite being left out of the team.
Now LAS, who for some reason has been running an antagonistic campaign against Tuquiri for weeks, not content with his non selection, rushes into print to bag the guy who’s been sacked.
Heard of a fair go?
Ever wondered what a negative effect this ARU thuggish behaviour might have on a team being built on good values?
stillmissit said | July 2nd 2009 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
bennalong – this is not professionalism this is a bloody blog. Professionalism would be if Lote was working to develop himself as a footballer and a human being. I dont think he has been doing either of those things since he came across. He totally lost me over the ‘phone a coach’ affair.
Mind you I havn’t been a fan of his for a long time. As soon as JON appointed Deans I said to my partner here is the end of Lote.
bennalong said | July 2nd 2009 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
stillmissit
Where do you get the inside information that he hasn’t been trying?
Except on this blog the evidence suggests otherwise.
He’s a good bloke. The ARU paid him to come to Rugby. Taking the money, being an ex Leaguey are not offences.
Justin said | July 2nd 2009 @ 6:35pm | Report comment
Funny how Turner was able to produce and show what he is capable of for NSW but LT wasnt…
bennalong said | July 2nd 2009 @ 6:53pm | Report comment
Justin,
What’s your point?
Justin said | July 2nd 2009 @ 7:27pm | Report comment
My point is that countless people have said Tuqiri’s poor S14 season was due to NSW and its brand of rugby, which is total crap imo. Have a look at Turner. Wasnt he in the same position in the same backline?
My point is dont blame NSW for LT not being in the AUS squad, its a cop out.
Ben C said | July 2nd 2009 @ 7:44pm | Report comment
Given the Tahs see Lote as a crowd puller, the Tahs hierarchy have been awfully quiet. Not like them at all.
As for Lote, if he was still playing for Australia consistently, he might push to have the contract reinstated although this is somewhat problematic. As he knows he is on the outer, he may settle for a cash payment and the take up a lucrative overseas offer. Probably the wrong time to be off contract but I suspect quite a few French and Japanese clubs would be happy to find a spot for him.
Brad said | July 2nd 2009 @ 7:47pm | Report comment
Lote is still pretty young. He should leave the fishbowl that is Aussie rugby and head to France, maybe it will rekindle some form. He could hang out with Bastereud!
Gerry Faehrmann said | July 2nd 2009 @ 7:47pm | Report comment
What a Lot(e) of rubbish!
westy said | July 3rd 2009 @ 12:13am | Report comment
i really cannot believe the irrelevancy of some of the comments. Some single league fan ( there are some rugby boys on this site who do it regularly to them ) leaves a bull in a china shop comment and then we rush in to denigrate what i consider to be a very good but different game. We simply then get genuine rugby league fans sometimes quite rightly defending their game.
Just ignore stupidity. It is dangerous for us to isolate ourselves from the many people who watch and enjoy both games. There is a dangerous tendency to artificially complicate rugby more than is necessary. George Smith told a group of very young aspiring flankers that his job was to get the ball for his team. The simplest summary I have ever heard of the flanker’s role.
But our comeback by us that the 80400 crowd at the SOO was not a full house is to say the least mindboggling. Australian rugby take it from me will be quite happy to get this crowd. By the way I thought the first SOO in Melbourne was a wonderful exhibition of rugby league before 51500 . There is nothing wrong in acknowledging this . Now back to topic.
westy said | July 3rd 2009 @ 12:31am | Report comment
As I have made claear on another site sadly Lote has put a lot more upper body weight on than when he played rugby league and his first couple of years in rugby . This has been at the cost of some pace in recent years.
If Lote has breached his contract then there are consequences. however the ridicule of his entire test record is rather spiteful to say the least. lote is not my favourite rugby winger but I would be very proud to have his scoring record. Lote played 67 tests for 30 tries. Joe Roff played 86 tests for 30 tries. The top five countries Lote scored against were Scotland 6 ; NZ 5 ; SA 5 ; Eng 4 and Italy 4. For Joe Roff the top 5 were Romania 5 ; SA 5 ; Argentina 4 ; NZ 3 ; and Scotland 3.
Lote played 14 tests against both NZ and Sa respectively and scored 5 against each. Joe Roff played 17 tests against NZ for 3 tries and 15 tests against SA for his five tries.
If lote’s strike rate was not good then Joe’s was terrible.
Lote is the highest capped Waratah winger and its leading try scorer.
By the way i rate Joe Roff i just think some find it hard to admit that lote’s record was not half bad and and some people’s attitudes are fundamentally tainted by where he came from.
To be a devil’s advocate this is more a reflection on us than an objective assessment of past facts.
Mike said | July 3rd 2009 @ 8:17am | Report comment
Westy,
Thank you for injecting some hard figures and some sanity into this debate. Clearly Tuqiri WAS worth the money when he was brought over. I can understand some posters complaining that his recent form is terrible, but those who descend to the level of denying that Tuqiri achieved anything in Rugby do not have the faintest idea what they are talking about.
Too many of the comments have been based on the premise “No league player can ever succeed at Rugby. Therefore we will denigrate the achievements of those who have crossed over, so that they don’t disturb our premise”.
Tuqiri is a very significant player in the history of Rugby Union, and ample proof that senior league players can make the switch – Davies, Thorn and Rogers are just a few of the other examples. (Gower should be added to this list as well – at the age of 30 he is credited by the coach of Bayonne with turning that team’s performance around, and Nick Mallett clearly rates him better than any other half in Italy – not bad for someone who made the switch at the age of 30 and without ever having played Rugby before).
Tuqiri’s form may well be gone forever, we just don’t know, but that does not change the fact that in his day he was one of the more significant wingers who have played for Australia.
Dean Pantio said | July 3rd 2009 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Tuqiri is a donkey who has never performed. Good riddance to him as a Tahs supporter.
AndyS said | July 3rd 2009 @ 11:57am | Report comment
What I find interesting is that, whatever the cause, the Waratahs apparently signed off on the sacking. That may just mean they were made aware of it rather than actually having a say, but they’ve always said his box-office justified his salary.
So shall we run a sweep – how big a drop in support will the Waratahs get next year because Lote isn’t there?
ohtani's jacket, said | July 3rd 2009 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Westy, I think it’s worth pointing out that all but one of Roff’s tries against NZ and SA came in Australia. Tuqiri scored 4 of his tries against NZ in New Zealand, but only 6 of his tries away from home.
Greg Russell said | July 3rd 2009 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
“Mitchell can get to the try line, as can AAC, as can Hynes and as can Ioane and Turner.”
Mitchell and Turner: yes (which is a major reason why they are incumbent Wallaby wingers); the other two: not so much yes.
I find LAS’s analysis fair but incomplete. Remember the Irish tour a few years ago after which Brian O’Driscoll was asked about Tuqiri, and he just rolled his eyes? What he was referring to was the bonecrushing defence that an unusually pumped up Tuqiri had unleashed on Irish wingers and midfielders alike. As this implies, for many years now Tuqiri has been regarded as arguably the best and scariest defensive winger in world rugby. He should be given the credit he deserves for that. It should also be remembered that he was invariably double- or triple-teamed when he got the ball, making it very difficult for him to shine in attack. But no doubt this attention helped to create opportunities for other (unmarked) players. How much credit was he given for that?
Often one gets a more objective impression from the outside. As one who lives on the NZ side of the Tasman, I can assure people that Tuqiri was one of the most highly regarded Wallabies over here. It was a similar with Gregan too: largely derided in Australia, but seen as one of the most dangerous Wallabies by NZers.
None of this is to deny Tuqiri’s shortcomings, as well exponded by LAS, or to say that he deserves to be in the Wallabies right now on merit (he doesn’t). Rather, it’s just to give a different perspective.
One of my main concerns has always been that Australians should judge Tuqiri purely as a rugby player, not as a league convert. In the age of full professionalism, these traditional biases no longer have a place.
Greg Russell said | July 3rd 2009 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
Re AndyS’s “how big a drop in support will the Waratahs get next year because Lote isn’t there?”
I’m tipping that the Waratahs will launch a desparate bid for a big league name. The obvious one is Mark Gasnier: can the NSWRU afford him? (and buy him out of his Stade Francais contract?). Perhaps they can arrange a Tuqiri for Gasnier swap with SF? At least with Gasnier the Waratahs would be getting a more finished product after a year (and a lot of games?) in France.
Why do this? As Spiro and the football writers at this site often lament, the Sydney sporting media is hugely dominated by league. Tuqiri instils an element of tolerance towards rugby in these people. Gasnier – for obvious reasons – would do the same. Can the NSWRU afford not to have such a person in the Waratahs? Is Tahu alone enough? (I doubt it).
I admit I’m being a bit sensationalist and radical with these speculations, but she’s a hard road to hoe when one has no traction with the media. Diehard rugby people struggle to see this, because they are, well, diehard. But the vast majority of Sydney people are not rugby people, and so rugby has to rely on the media to have any chance of getting through to these people. Without having the media onside (e.g. through having a Tuqiri in the ranks), this is very difficult.
Bay35Pablo said | July 3rd 2009 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
AndyS & Greg, re Tahs fan numbers without Lote.
Well, I’m a tahs and rugby die hard, so I’m blinkered apparently. However, the crowds over recent years show one thing, when the tahs are playing winning & attractive rugby people turn up. They don’t turn up because a league convert is there.
In 2002, before Tuqiri saw the light, and when Dwyer was coaching (from memory), the tahs played well and made the semis for the 1st time. All season the crowds were great, and several in the 30Ks. I went to most with some mates, and the difficulty in getting decent seats prompted us to get season passes (which we still have 7 years later & counting).
Since then crowds have waned at times, irrespective of which leaguies the tahs ran out, or what those players form was. Were the crowds down this year because Tuqiri was (allegedly) off colour. No. it was because we played drivel.
The crowds will not drop off just because Tuqiri isn’t there (or if they do the numbers overall will be negligible, or more likely to have been turned off due to poor games). And they will come back when we start playing decent footy, and getting it out to the backline (now lacking Tuqiri, but possessing pretty of good young backs, with pace).
if the NSWRU thinks it has to sign some big name leaguie to keep or grow the crowds, they are even bigger idiots than most of us keep calling them, and it will just confirm they have no idea about what they are selling and who they are selling it to.
it’s that same thinking that was behind Super League, and that people follow players not teams. Piffle.
AndyS said | July 3rd 2009 @ 6:00pm | Report comment
Yep, that was my thought too, also perhaps coloured by me and mine being dyed-in-the-wool. But I think Greg is probably right, the ‘Tahs will try to pull out a rabbit. If the rest of the Sydney crowd are in fact just following the converts, it will be necessary. If on the other hand they like to see big names but would in fact show up anyway, it would be somewhat embarrassing for that to be made apparent given the amount of money flushed away.
Bill said | July 3rd 2009 @ 6:20pm | Report comment
Being a kiwi in aussie i’m glad we dont have to worry about him smashing it upto us again ???he has always played well against the All Black’s and been the man to take it up to us ?? France is where he will go and join Sonny Boy and make his next fortune
Midfielder said | July 3rd 2009 @ 10:46pm | Report comment
My two bobs worth … it is very hard to stay at the top for years on end … maybe his time has come ..but IMO a great winger both in league and union .. but my memories of Lote are being in a pub and every time he call the ball he got everyone on their feet and was seen as a great player … his record is good nay great by any comparison …
My thoughts to those putting in the boot towards the end of his career is it because he played league and earned a lot of money to play union … seems to me there are a couple of green eyed monsters posting…
bennalong said | July 4th 2009 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
Thank heavens for a bit of reality creeping in.
Make no mistake, the Tahs are now in trouble.
Lote made yards and was great defensively. If he wasn’t paid so much the knockers may have reazed his true value was still high
Anyone care to suggest his replacement for the Tahs?
With regard to the NSW hierarchy they’re in no position to say anything because they are broke and the ARU was paying Lote’s salary
Like all bureaucrats they will not tend to loyalty until they sniff reaction to the facts as they emerge. This will be too late.
Despite the absence of any idea of a fair go from Lote critics we know that he hasn’t broken any laws. And if he’s been on the turps his behaviour wasn’t bad enough to make the press.
Therefore logic suggests this is a vendetta and JON is prepared to pay Tuquiri out, presumably at a saving he regards as reasonable.
He won’t have given a toss about the consequences for the Tahs, and I suspect the savings will make Lote’s retention look the better on the balance sheet.
But hell be gone and JON will have won
Can anyone tell me what else he’s won this time around.I’ll give you R. Deans but that was luck more than his good management .
Now what else?
stillmissit said | July 5th 2009 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Bennelong – Twisted at best mate and so one eyed about a winger who was playing like a forward. If it was Phil Waugh who was still making yards and great defensively I would agree, a winger has to be able to sniff the try line and be able to beat 2 players to the line. Tuquiri has scored from 5 metres out or has been on the end of some Stirling hard work and had nobody to beat. The bottom line is he is not able to make it in RU anymore.
JON in my opinion has had to clean up the mess Gary Flowers and first Jones then Connolly caused. Flowers/Connolly’s unseemly haste to sign Lote to 1m a year when they both knew there time was up was ugly and stupid. Let’s start with fixing the books as this is a part of your arguement. This has my top priority no money no game end of story, then correct coach – a piece of luck from your POV good management from mine, making the most of what we have in players – when Deans selected Peter Hynes he sent a signal out that he can recognise talent others cant see and this is exactly what JON wants as opposed to the constant whinging that there are no players in Australia and other bullshit.
Bottom line is Bennelong we are on absolute opposite train tracks we will see who is right.
Even looser said | July 5th 2009 @ 9:29am | Report comment
stillmissit – You make some good points about the ‘cleaning up’ that JON is required to do to get Rugby on track in all areas. It remains to be seen how well he has handled the LT affair. This has the potential to really explode in his face & while he may get ducks in a row in some areas, no one likes to feel that the boss is unfair of his treatment of workers.
When the dust settles he may appear to have won the battle but lost the war.
Personally his handling of this matter has left a bad taste in my mouth & I imagine it’s the same with many of the players too. I wonder what Robbie feels about it? He seems to be sticking with his line that LT was in his plans. And that was while sitting beside JON at the press conference.
Fans & players like to know what’s going on. We need to know otherwise we invent our own reasons. I can’t see this thing just going away. Can you?
I would hate for Robbie to be thinking “how do I get out of here”?
Bonza said | July 5th 2009 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Bay35Pablo – I googled the crowd numbers for the tahs and it is interesting that until 2002 (Signing of Mat Rogers and Nathan Blacklock) the average crowd was always between 24,000 and 26,000 – In 2002 the crowds went up to 34,000 and stayed above the 30,000 mark until 2007 – If you graph it you can see a significant spike when the League players arrived and also it is the only period when the Tahs have made the finals (2002 semi, 2005 final, 2006 semi, 2008 final) in the history of the competition – Coincidence or not??? It is also the period where the Tahs actually achieved financial independance so bums on seats matters. Rogers departed prior to xmas in 2006 and left a hole that Beale was unable to fill in 2007. Sailor also went after the season in 2006 and the crowd figures went down. You can argue chicken and egg but I merely present the facts
LeftArmSpinner said | July 5th 2009 @ 10:33am | Report comment
The Tahs are in trouble? NOT!!!!!
Metres gained is measured by the distance/metres made when heading Goal posts to goal posts, not sideline to sideline.
Want some replacements: Just visit John Grant’s skill on the wing for Eastwood. Young, big and will get bigger, hard straight runner, rides tackles,. excellent in the air, quick and good hands!!!! Oh, and probably cheap too. All upside.
Alternatively, have a look at Smith from Norths. A Fullback, winger, cum centre. Very hard to tackle and similar skill set to Grant!!! Or McCabe from The Rats. But, he has probably been signed already.
I hear/read the Herald headline “Tuqiri sacking angers Wallabies Stars!!!” Give me a break. He wasn’t even in the frame for selection, for a very good reason. not good enough!!!!
But, the real giveaway is that his salary returns to the existing players, over time as they renew their deals with the ARU!!! Lote goes=ARU players get more moneyJohn Connolly is quoted as saying that Lote created a positive environment!!!! $800K for creating a positive environment. Geez, get a stand up comic!!!!! Cheaper. Or, just get Robbie Deans!!!!! When the article is based on quotes from only John Connolly and Wendell Sailor, you know that it is not worth reading because it is a beat up!!!
Jolly Jupes said | July 5th 2009 @ 11:26am | Report comment
LAS – I think we get your drift – Playing for Eastwood, Norths or Warringah does not make you a good Super player, let alone the jump to test match level. Grant sounds like a good prospect and if he is he will play in someone’s A program and find a contract from there. McCabe and Smith have already played for the Junior Waratahs so there talents have been noticed. McCabe has signed with the Brumbies and Smith maybe considered to replace Lote anyway so this process is going on continuously. The ARC was designed to take out the risk but now the Force and Brumbies are releasing their players back to Shute Shield it is more competitive and the better players stand out. This was not happening for the last three seasons so it was not the best proving ground. I note the Brumbies are going on a tour in August so they will be stripping their players from the Sydney comp for a few weeks. I am interested if anyone complains as I know if Hickey did the same the clubs would be putting the boot into the Waratahs
Your dislike for Tuqiri taints you as it is not unreasonable for his fellow players to be angry to some extent, as would some one who gets sacked from the workplace with no reason given. As everyone knows, including the players, that this has a strategic element to it. You would not expect people’s cynicism make them a little miffed. If he was not in the frame for selection then why was he in camp at all for 5 weeks and why was Deans talking him up in the paper just before his dismissal – You might not rate him but Deans did by his words and actions, unless you are saying there is some dishonesty at hand. The salary will return to other players contracted as it would on every player that goes o/s or retires – this is not new. I am sure it could be spent on lawyers fees as well. If I follow your logic about salaries then as Deans is paid twice as much as Connolly and Jones then we should be getting twice the result – I guess we will have to wait and see
The Link said | July 5th 2009 @ 11:56am | Report comment
LAS – in your rush to pour scorn on Lote, you are missing some key facts;
– the Waratahs were enquiring to see how they could keep Lote. Hickey has been directly quoted this weekend.
– Lote has the support of the dressing room, direct quotes from Smith and Waugh. They are the harshest judges of all.
In sum, he’s popular and respected by the playing group as well as coaching staff (NSW).
Just confirms how out of touch many Rugby supporters are.
mattamkII said | July 5th 2009 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
As I said to LAS in other posts that I think have gone dead.
I refernace to his hatred of all things around LT:
“Leftie, thats exactly what I mean. You almost relish the fact Lotes Cuzz is out of form? The facts are the bloke is 20 years old and didnt have a preseason due to injury….but go ahead, write off his career if you like.”
and in reply to his dislike of LT Tweeting:
“Leftie Leftie Leftie – so so bitter? Why?
Now you judge his character for keeping in touch with fans?
Anyway mate, I agree with you on a lot of things but you really need to let the Lote thing go. Did he kiss your Mrs or something’?”
I just don’t get he level of dislike some fans have LT.
stillmissit said | July 5th 2009 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
Even looser – I can see how this might leave a bad taste in your mouth. Unknown situation with a player you admire all acceptable emotions. I also agree that JON is taking an interesting and possibly dangerous path that his detractors will be watching with hope and poss glee. The truth is that over the last 15 years the only time rugby has done well is when JON has been at the helm, sure we have had times ie Alan Jones era when we were playing well but the coffers were not so well filled from my recollection.
This will all play out over the next 6 weeks I hope and then we can get on with the world cup. I find the journalists who were lining up to shoot Lote about 3 weeks ago have sniffed the air and jumped ship to the Lote NRL bandwagon. They are pathetic really and I dispise most of them.
mattamkII – If you dont get it about Lote’s performance then you dont know much about rugby. There are few old time rugby supporters that I know who would swap Lote for Peter Hynes – would you? most probably yes from your post.
If you are 29 slowing down dramatically and running sideways and cant get a fullback in club rugby (Matt Rogers refered to it as very poor I think) then it is time to go. Stupid bloody John Connolly, Ewan McKenzie and Gary Flowers put us in this situation.
As far as hating Lote I was one of those who was looking forward to him ‘killing’ it in rugby and I thought we had bought a Jonah Lomu instead we bought a average winger with big biceps. As Jake famously said in ‘Once were Warriors’ after the bar fight “piss poor mate all weights work and no speed”
Jolly Jupes said | July 5th 2009 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
Stillmissit – where is the actual evidence he has slowed down or are you relying on the urban myth from a few years back. Mortlock is 32 and i doubt he is getting faster or more skilful. The other big point is that if you compare Tuqiri with Hynes, Mitchell, Ioane, Turner etc – none of these guys were around in 2002/3 when Rogers and Tuqiri came on board. But the bulk of their wages (3/4) have always been paid by the ARU and guess who was the boss of the ARU at the time they were induced to come to rugby – So you might need to extend your blame to JO’N, Jeff Miller, Brett Robinson, Eddie Jones – Come to think of it all the Australian provinces chased him each time he was off contract so add all those “stupid bloody” people as well
stillmissit said | July 5th 2009 @ 5:53pm | Report comment
Jolly Jupes – I read it on the roar that he had lost a couple of seconds over 100m and I think it shows in just about every game this past 2 years. He had daylight between him and the line for the Waratahs v Crusaders (I think it was) and he got run down by Richie McCaw. I have never seen him turn and fix a problem behind him with any speed. He gets weaker the closer he gets to the line and seems incapable of beating a fullback as mentioned in Rugby Heaven that he couldnt beat the Gordon FB.
I agree with your reasoning re JON’s culpability in bringing them all over initially and although I wasnt too keen on the idea at the time I was happy to go along with it after years of them taking our players away and was expecting great things out of Lote. Maybe this is JON finishing what he started? The other issue is that JON had a large war chest at that time he doesnt have one now. We all agree that this is amazingly useful timing for the ARU but we just have to wait and see the outcome of the court case.
There are many rugby watchers who believe that our game is once again on the upper and I dont want an arse who puts a national selector on loudspeaker so that another player can be berated by him in what is supposed to be a private conversation. Union doesnt need drop kicks like this bloke and never has. If there are senior Wallabies who want to keep him they should have a good look at themselves as human beings.
Maybe we have learnt our lesson about league players, it appears that John Connolly hasnt. Oh! and maybe you, bennelong and a few others.
The Answer said | July 5th 2009 @ 6:29pm | Report comment
I’m simply staggered by all these rugby fans who claim that Tuqiri failed at rugby. Look at his stats. It would seem only a handful who have played the game could only have succeded if that is the benchmark for a ‘failure’.
How times change, within six months we have gone from union will buy everyone from NYC to every decent league player, it is all inevitable according to the almighty Pete Fitz to suddenly we don’t want anyone.
Fair credit for trying tod evelop your own, and surely a more sensible option, but I’ll be interested to see if the “no leaguies” stance remains with the next Super 14 franchise, if it in fact goes ahead.
Jolly Jupes said | July 5th 2009 @ 6:32pm | Report comment
Stillmissit – I am not a lover of League players but I am an evidence based person. As written on this site by others, Tuqiri played 67 tests and is now the third highest try scorer of all time and he scored tries against the best countries and even in the RWC final – he must have done something right – enough not to have his 7 years in union written off in a simple sentence of derision. The are plenty of union players who have done far less on the field. Off the field he has had his moments but it is ironic that the Union, sponsors and media use all the Leaguies as their go to men for publicity – I suggest it is the combination of this that allows him to command serious money – Remember that Giteau is Australias highest paid player (until Firepower fell over). I will be interested if the O’Conners and Coopers can lead an exemplary off field life. Giteau collapsing in night clubs and the Quokker gate affair suggests that the rotten apples are more plentiful than 3 rugby league converts
Bay35Pablo said | July 5th 2009 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
Bonza,
Thanks for the stats. However, I ascribe the increased crowds to the success of the Tahs more than the leaguies playing, although that would have helped.
As everyone knows, Sydney loves winner and hates a loser. The Swans are evidence of this, and the Tahs have found out the same lesson (or rather the NSWRU have).
To me, the crowds consist of 2 main types, the “rugby’ fans, being the rusted on fans that support rugby as their main code of choice, and the “spectacle” fans, who either support another sport more than union or support no one sport really. However, either way, they will go to a sporting event to see the spectacle (I will go to almost any sporting event if it will be entertaining, but union has me rusted on now and that was a decision as an adult).
The spectacle fans are quick to flock to a spectacle, and quick to leave when it disappears or the novelty wears off (I have been this way with AFL). The rugby fans are probably already there to begin with, but more come when times are good. When times get lean they are slower to leave, but will leave if bad times continue.
That is, I didn’t see the leaguies coming over in 2002 on as being some bunch of league fans that magically became converted to union because their heroes started playing it. There may have been some, but far more important would have been the rugby and spectacle fans that came in greater numbers to watch the Tahs playing better (both generally and with their new cattle).
The Wallabies get 85,000 to a Bledisloe in Homebush, and used to get 110,000 when they could, well before the leaguies turned up. Even “poor” crowds get 40,000 or so. As such, there is clearly a hard core of “rugby” fans who will go to most decent games, plus the usual “spectacle” fans who turn up if the spectacle is attractive enough. E.g. the Bledisloe is more of a spectacle than Les Bleus.
So if the Wallabies can get 40K, why aren’t all these turning up to Tahs games? A number of reasons far too complex which would make this already long winded post longer. But they clearly will if there is reason enough, and won’t when not. I believe the reason is the Tahs performance, with or without leaguies..
Sitting in Bay 35, with season pass holders around me, I have seen the rugby fan section fade due to sheer frustration with poor play over the last 2 years. Spectacle fans would have been thinking the same thing, far more I believe than “Oh, Wendell won’t be here now he got caught snorting Colombian marching powder, I’m not coming now …”
Had the Tahs signed Giteau several years ago rather than the Force, I believe the crowds would have been up. And dropped if he had left. But much would have been the fact we probably would have been playing much better footy!!
We still have a talented back line (no matter what Growden says), which is capable of providing some razzle dazzle (remember that ad campaign?!). The forwards are doing the job. When the team starts playing decent footy again, and winning, the crowds will come back. This will happen whether Lote is there or not. Would they be there in more numbers if Lote was there? Possibly, but I think not in enough numbers to matter.
And if we need poached talent, however good or committed to their new sport, to get people to turn up rather than just providing a good enough spectacle with our great sport, there’s something wrong …
David V. said | July 5th 2009 @ 7:00pm | Report comment
“As everyone knows, Sydney loves winner and hates a loser.”
As evidenced by Sydney FC, and the fact that thousands marched for South Sydney but a mere fraction actually turn(ed) up to games.
mattamkII said | July 5th 2009 @ 8:40pm | Report comment
classic “I read it on the roar that he had lost 2 seconds over 100m” hahaha my god I am laughing hard.
LTs best over 100m is 10.7 so they reckon hes doing 12.7??? riiiight. I still run a 13 flat and I am grade level prop.
PS – Drew Mitchel said 2 weeks ago LT is still the fastest in the squad over 100m – again, who’s best to judge?
Mate, not saying I dont think hes been out of form at all. Just saying I dont get how people get on his case and almost relish his sacking.
Jolly Jupes said | July 5th 2009 @ 9:49pm | Report comment
Thanks mattamkll – nice to get a few more facts rather than fiction
Bay35Pablo – I know what you are trying to say but the Waratahs are a level below the Wallabies and everything is proportionate. How many people watch sheffield shield versus a test match? You cant make the comparison. The Waratahs cant be compared to a Bledisloe game. Only 30,000 went to watch the Italian tests but they would have been full houses if the AB’s were playing – people turn up to watch the best players playing – the Tahs only have a portion of the best players, they still have higher crowd averages than the other teams and the highest cable viewing audience in the comp. The Tahs also have more competition than the other provinces (Brumbies/Raiders), (Reds,Broncos,Lions), (Force,Dockers,Eagles), (Waratahs,Swans,Roosters,Sharks,Dragons,Bulldogs,Tigers,Souths,Parramatta,Manly, etc) – You mention the fickle nature of Sydney supporters – they have plenty of options. The Tahs have about 10,000 members so the rest (15-20,000) are transient, perhaps passionate but discretionary – I agree you wont hook them with average rugby but names make a difference as well – Ideally the names should marry up with form – as I said the Leaguies have coincided with the most successful Waratah period. The Wallabies play a kick chase game as do the Waratahs, they play it better as they naturally have the best players at their disposal – that said Giteau’s kicking last week was average but it does not seem to get a mention
The tahs have only recently been able to bring in a new generation of backs with Beale,Turner and Horne all playing as teenagers. There is little point in lamenting the lack of Giteau as he was courted heavily but with Firepower promises everyone fell about $700,000 short on the legitimate offers
Richard Brockhurst said | July 7th 2009 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Mattamkii…..It is all about bums on seats. Lote’s jobs done. The poms do it with Aussie & Kiwi Rugby Leaque players all the time in their super leaque…..But the english purists hate this fact. Big names sell games. I wonder who is next on the ARU shopping list.